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Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Mar 08 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks ‘D’ too Melo to slow Spurs (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:21:07 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony got what he wanted; the Knicks ran their offense through him. And Melo sure got his shots and his points. The problem, however, was that the Spurs also got what they wanted; they too ran their offense directly through Anthony and the Knicks.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo and Kincks free fall-Lin (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:02:02 GMT)
    The Knicks made it down to San Antonio off a very disturbing loss and in what any objective person would call a major crisis. A Knick fan would probably want to call it something else â?? a disaster.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo mixture includes D’Antoni, teammates and Anthony (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 01:31:21 GMT)
    Mike D’Antoni agrees that Carmelo Anthony needs to lead the Knicks and scoring and shots but in order to accomplish those goals it is going to take a joint effort between the coaching staff, players and Anthony himself.

  • [New York Times] Spurs 118, Knicks 105: San Antonio Spurs Top Knicks as Tony Parker Scores 32 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:17:18 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 27 points, his greatest output since Jan. 20, and dazzled in a furious fourth-quarter rally, only to have the Knicks get routed by the Spurs.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Nets Edge Clippers on Farmar’s Last-Second 3-Pointer (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:24:06 GMT)
    Jordan Farmar hit a 3-pointer from the right wing with 0.2 of a second left and the Nets squandered an 18-point, second-half lead before beating the Los Angeles Clippers, 101-100.

  • [New York Times] Kings Edge Hornets on Salmons’ Layup (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:05:34 GMT)
    John Salmons made the go-ahead layup with 6.8 seconds left, Marcus Thornton scored 25 points, and the Sacramento Kings snapped a four-game losing streak by beating the New Orleans Hornets 99-98 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Top Warriors 110-92 for 5th Straight Win (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 05:59:51 GMT)
    Rudy Gay had 26 points, 12 rebounds and five assists to lead the Memphis Grizzlies to their fifth straight victory, 110-92 over the Golden State Warriors on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Nets Stun Clippers With Last-Second Three-Pointer (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 05:33:30 GMT)
    Jordan Farmar sank a last-second three-pointer to lift the New Jersey Nets to a 101-100 win over the Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday as the visitors missed a chance to leapfrog city rivals the Lakers.

  • [New York Times] Irving’s Layup Lifts Cavs Over Nuggets, 100-99 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:54:15 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving hit a driving layup with 4 seconds left to cap a seesaw battle in the final minutes and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Denver Nuggets 100-99 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Farmar Three-Pointer Gives Nets Upset Win Over Clippers (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:28:37 GMT)
    Jordan Farmer sank a last-second three-pointer to lift the New Jersey Nets to a 101-100 victory over the Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday as the visitors missed a chance to leapfrog city rivals the Lakers.

  • [New York Times] Parker, Spurs Hand Reeling Knicks Another Loss (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:17:32 GMT)
    Tony Parker scored 32 points and the San Antonio Spurs dealt the sliding New York Knicks a third consecutive loss, 118-105 on Wednesday night, which doesn’t figure to ease the mounting frustrations of Carmelo Anthony and teammates.

  • [New York Times] Farmar 3-Pointer Leads Nets Over Clippers (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:29:28 GMT)
    Jordan Farmar hit a 3-pointer from the right wing with 0.2 seconds left and the New Jersey Nets squandered an 18-point, second-half lead before beating the Los Angeles Clippers 101-100 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Thunder Rally From 16 Down Back, Beat Suns 115-104 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:14:34 GMT)
    Russell Westbrook scored 31 points, James Harden added a career-high 30 off the bench and the Oklahoma City Thunder roared back for a 115-104 victory over the Phoenix Suns on Wednesday night for their 14th straight home win.

  • [New York Times] Rose’s Late Jumper Power Bulls Past Bucks 106-104 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 03:47:54 GMT)
    Derrick Rose drilled a long jumper at the buzzer, powering the Chicago Bulls to a 106-104 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Johnson’s Boost Early Lifts Wolves Over Blazers (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:11:30 GMT)
    Wes Johnson scored 19 points to back Kevin Love’s 29 points and 16 rebounds in the Minnesota Timberwolves’ 106-94 victory over the Portland Trail Blazers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Heat Rally to Beat Hawks, 89-86 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 03:08:47 GMT)
    LeBron James had 31 points and 11 rebounds, Dwyane Wade added 18 points and set up Udonis Haslem for an alley-oop dunk with 12 seconds left, and the Miami Heat rallied to beat the Atlanta Hawks 89-86 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] DeRozan Scores 23 to Lead Raptors Over Rockets (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 03:08:45 GMT)
    DeMar DeRozan scored 23 points as the Toronto Raptors used a rare offensive outburst to beat the Houston Rockets 116-98 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Jefferson Leads Jazz Over Bobcats 99-93 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:53:41 GMT)
    Al Jefferson had 31 points and nine rebounds as the Utah Jazz defeated the Charlotte Bobcats 99-93 Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Wizards Come From 21 Down, Top Lakers 106-101 (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:53:39 GMT)
    Roger Mason led a spirited fourth-quarter comeback with nine points in the period, Kobe Bryant lost his shooting touch down the stretch, and the Washington Wizards rallied from a 21-point, third-quarter deficit Wednesday night to stun the Los Angeles Lakers 106-101.

  • [New York Times] Turner’s Career-High 26 Leads 76ers Over Celtics (Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:34:02 GMT)
    Evan Turner scored a career-best 26 points, helping the Philadelphia 76ers rout the Boston Celtics 103-71 Wednesday night to maintain their lead in the Atlantic Division.

  • 171 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Mar 08 2012)

    1. er

      Man I hope Knicks trade melo cuz it’s just annoying how every game is a referendum on him ….it’s just tiresome just let him move on and he will be happier an Knicks fans will be happy with j Lin and no melo….he is basically Arod now cuz dude shoots 50% and it’s still his fault…like Arod hits 2 hr when yanks are down 5

    2. maudlin17

      er:
      Man I hope Knicks trade melo cuz it’s just annoying how every game is a referendum on him ….it’s just tiresome just let him move on and he will be happier an Knicks fans will be happy with j Lin and no melo….he is basically Arod now cuz dude shoots 50% and it’s still his fault…like Arod hits 2 hr when yanks are down 5

      I agree that Melo needs to go. It wasn’t too long ago that Melo scoffed at the idea that he couldn’t play with Lin. Looking back..he didn’t have a choice but to say what he did. After what we’ve seen so far, he looks completely incapable of playing in any kind of system that doesn’t feature him iso’ing all the time.

      I got worried when he sank his first two 3s, which seemed like he was out to make up for the previous game’s shitty output. He proceeded to jack up every jumper he could and didn’t drive and/or move without the basket for pretty much the rest of the game.

      He’s been in the league for 7 years now and he’s pretty much been the same offensive player since he entered. I don’t think he can, nor do I think he really wants to learn how to play with Lin at the point.

      Unless something dramatically changes in his approach, I don’t see this team going very far with him and Lin in the same starting lineup. Every time I see Lin and Melo on the court together, it seems like Lin keeps deferring to Melo. You can almost see how depressed Lin is to feed Melo the ball, knowing damn well he isn’t gonna see it again on that possession.

    3. er

      maudlin17:

      You highlight my point exactly…on which other team would you be worried by your best scorer making 2 threes…lmAo Knick fans

    4. Frank

      You read quotes like this from Amare:

      “You look at the way that team plays, that’s the way we should be able to play. This is the deepest team I’ve ever played on, we have talent that’s off the charts, everyone can play. That team knows how to win.”

      and you wonder – does Amare have ANY insight at all into the fact that HE is the problem defensively on this team? Does this coaching staff have the guts to go to Amare and tell him that? There’s the fact that SA is great at execution of what they want to do, and there’s also the fact that Amare’s total lack of defensive awareness made it so a 3rd grader could’ve executed the PNR against the NYK last night.

    5. d-mar

      The Boston game was the killer to this whole week, if we win that one like we should have, these last 2 wouldn’t sting as much. I mean, really, how many teams other than maybe Miami, Chicago or OKC go into Texas and don’t go 0-2?

      The next 2 games may be season-defining, starting in Milwaukee, where we always play like we’re scared s—less.

    6. ruruland

      I’m not exactly sure what Maudlin’s talking about considering 57% of Melo’s baskets since he’s played with Lin have been assisted.

      We’ve seen a lot of those coming off of off-ball movement and weakside attacks. Look, this isn’t the flex, the design of the offense is to maintain the spacing by staying at three distinct parts of the floor– the two corners and the slot.

      Melo’s snuk behind the defense many times as Lin penetrates but Lin is a very average passer/awareness pg once his drive is initiated.

      There are other ways Melo can score off the ball, but they aren’t going to be in the middle screen and roll if Lin isn’t finding him.

      They’ll be catch and shoot. They’ve incorporated Melo some as the pick guy to varying degrees of success.

      Every team in the NBA has guys who isolate, the good ones slant the defense and create shot and attack opportunities. Their were plenty of those created by Melo when he isolated, even from the 3 pt line, as the Spurs zone a big to his side.

      On a per play basis, the Knicks got better looks out of that then they did their 4-out middle screen and roll.

      You use both of them, in fact, Lin worked very well off the ball slashing from the weakside on the “Melo Iso”.

      Give me a break with this nonsense.

    7. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank:

      and you wonder – does Amare have ANY insight at all into the fact that HE is the problem

      A great philosopher once said, “If I didn’t play the way how I played, I wouldn’t have gotten no max contract. … Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

      Why would Amar’e be the problem? He’s a max player.

    8. ruruland

      er: You highlight my point exactly…on which other team would you be worried by your best scorer making 2 threes…lmAo Knick fans

      It’s clearly a logical fallacy, a hasty generalization beget of the overplayed media narrative of the oil/ water fantasy.

      Melo spaces Lin’s PNR better than anyone else outside of Novak, in theory, because guys aren’t helping off him much.

      Lin’s numbers would look a lot worse over these stretch of games facing these defenses if Melo wasn’t on the floor.

    9. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: A great philosopher once said, “If I didn’t play the way how I played, I wouldn’t have gotten no max contract. … Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

      Why would Amar’e be the problem? He’s a max player.

      LOL for once I totally agree. You just really wonder whether Amare ever looks at himself in the mirror and says I’m a bad defender and need to get better, or whether the coaching staff ever just lets him have it. Or does D’Antoni just do like he did last night in his post-game press conference – passively aggressively criticize Amare by saying “well I thought Harrellson did a nice job defensively” about 10 times.

      I know you were being sort of facetious with the whole Stephon quote, and I don’t think Amare would ever say or think something like that. It’s almost as if he doesn’t even realize that he’s the problem. I hope I’m wrong — but to call out the team’s energy on defense rather than the fact he watched Tony Parker score uncontested layup after uncontested layup without DOING ANYTHING – I sort of feel like I’m not wrong.

      If you ask me, you use his length and quickness to trap guards or do a hard show every time, then let the rest of the defense worry about the guys on the floor. Even if that’s predictable, it’s better than a wide open runway to the rim every time. My feeling is that Amare is good at doing the one thing you tell him to do. He was sort of ok the previous night guarding Dirk in iso because he didn’t have to keep track of anything else on the floor. If we do that, he can just concentrate on forcing the ball handler away from the basket rather than worrying about zoning up on a soft show etc.

    10. er

      It’s also very funny that the tabloids always say so and so happened with melo on the bench and they conveniently neglect that insanity is sitting right next to him lmao gotta love the ny papers

    11. Gideon Zaga

      Are we seriously going to sit here and criticise Melo again, are you kidding me. Did you guys watch the same game that I watched, you give up effing 60 points in the paint, 30 in the 2nd quarter and you expect to win. Yeah you are right, if I was Melo, I would also damn well asked to be traded from this sorry market with these ungrateful fans. No wander Ewing, keeps telling Dwight to be careful of NY, such an ungrateful franchise seeing how he was treated after all he did. No wander no one wants to come here and we’ll keep being the joke of the NBA, the Clippers of old.

    12. hoolahoop

      ruruland: It’s clearly a logical fallacy, a hasty generalization beget of the overplayed media narrative of the oil/ water fantasy.

      Melo spaces Lin’s PNR better than anyone else outside of Novak, in theory, because guys aren’t helping off him much.

      Lin’s numbers would look a lot worse over these stretch of games facing these defenses if Melo wasn’t on the floor.

      Do you have any other purpose in life other than defending Melo? Serious question – are you on his payroll?

      Every thread here is fifty percent your posts – all defending Melo. It’s got to the point where people can’t have a discussion because every other post is some sort of Melo defense.

      You don’t even seem to be a knicks fan. You followed Melo here from Denver and now suddenly you’re a big knicks fan.
      STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    13. Son of Tastycakes

      Ruruland,

      I’m basically a lurker here. I’ve read your posts with great interest. And I’ve come to the conclusion that you must work PR in Melo’s agent’s office.
      Anyone with eyes ( and stats) can see that Melo is not nearly as good as advertised. I dunno, maybe that’ll change. But he has been IMHO a huge disappointment and I for, one, was excited when we got him. I’m afraid he’s turning into a monumental problem.

    14. Gideon Zaga

      Its clear Dantoni doesnt want Melo the same way Pitino didnt want King because he wanted to run uptemp O, so why is management hesitating. Trade one of them and save my season. Im sure the Lakers or the Nets would gladly take Melo. We have to do the deal.

    15. Son of Tastycakes

      18 — sorry hadn’t read your post yet. But as you can see my sentiments exactly.

    16. Owen

      Ruruland – not sure if you saw but harden dropped 30 points on 15.44 shots last night In a +27 performance in a come from behind victory.

      I am VERY excited for Melo to do something similar…

      Melo for Gasol, let’s make it happen….

    17. Gideon Zaga

      On a side note, I have always believed Ruru to be Lala Vasquez or a member of Melo’s street team. I’ll give him this though, he sounds like a smart kid. Why waste this talent on an athlete who probably isn’t self aware at all. He probably lives through the prism of himself and his ego.

    18. Will the Thrill

      Did we not try an iso-based offense last year when we acquired Melo? It led to him doing well (and it is doubtful he would even do well this year with it), and nobody else. The reason our offense was better last year with Melo was because Melo was playing out of his mind most of the time and this year he is tremendously underperforming.

      Gideon Zaga:
      Its clear Dantoni doesnt want Melo the same way Pitino didnt want King because he wanted to run uptemp O, so why is management hesitating. Trade one of them and save my season. Im sure the Lakers or the Nets would gladly take Melo. We have to do the deal.

    19. Owen

      Melo hit 42.4% of his threes after coming to the Knicks last year. Hence his great TS%. If he could do that on a consistent basis we would be having a totally different conversation.

    20. thenamestsam

      Personally I like ruru’s pro-Meloism even if I don’t agree with it. I find the anti-Melo stance in the fanbase at large to be so overwhelming that his sentiments are actually a nice contrast. His belief that the team will improve is a nice counterbalance to my overwhelming internal negativity.

    21. hoolahoop

      One liners, scout style, on the starting five.
      Melo – great scoring ability, but doesn’t play team ball. doesn’t move without the ball. ballstopper.

      Lin – highly over rated. No court vision when double teamed. pooer defender.

      Amare – legs look tired. Elbow jumper off. Occasional flashes of yesteryear. Matador defender.

      Chandler – highly efficient, close to the basket scorer. excellent help defender. too many stupid technical fouls.

      Fields – high IQ player. Great off the ball movement. makes a lot happen that’s not in the box score. trouble hitting the three.

    22. hoolahoop

      thenamestsam:
      Personally I like ruru’s pro-Meloism even if I don’t agree with it. I find the anti-Melo stance in the fanbase at large to be so overwhelming that his sentiments are actually a nice contrast.His belief that the team will improve is a nice counterbalance to my overwhelming internal negativity.

      A lot of people must like it. There are many Melo lovers/apologists here. It’s just hard to defend the way he, and the knicks, have been playing.

    23. johnlocke

      +1 … I like ruruland’s posts and his positive outlook is a nice counterbalance to the typical Knicks fan (myself included) who has been going through misery for the last decade or so. Everyone agrees Melo is not scoring efficiently and is not a good help defender…I still ‘think’ he’s our best player and he is likely not being traded anywhere soon, so I’ve just got to hope ruruland is right and he turns things around and plays like a Top 20 player on a consistent basis.

      thenamestsam:
      Personally I like ruru’s pro-Meloism even if I don’t agree with it. I find the anti-Melo stance in the fanbase at large to be so overwhelming that his sentiments are actually a nice contrast.His belief that the team will improve is a nice counterbalance to my overwhelming internal negativity.

    24. Eternal OptiKnist

      I was never expecting to win in Dallas or San Antonio…but i was expecting a competitve game at the very least. We never seemed to have any real mojo in either game…even the 4th quarter comeback in Dallas..you never sensed it was real. I don’t even know what to say. I just hope the team doesn’t start hanging their heads..the season isn’t over. I always did think Ruru was Melo, lol.

    25. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Ruruland – not sure if you saw but harden dropped 30 points on 15.44 shots last night In a +27 performance in a come from behind victory.

      I am VERY excited for Melo to do something similar…

      Melo for Gasol, let’s make it happen….

      and while we’re at it, trade Amare for Batum and Camby, please.

    26. Count de Pennies

      I really like this site; been reading it for years but rarely post myself.

      I’ve come to appreciate the mix of personalities here and (with the exception of the occasional gratuitous attack) enjoy reading what everyone has to say.

      Living as a Knick fan on the West Coast for the better part of the past 20 years has felt something like being in the Witness Protection Program. You learn to survive by feigning an interest in the local team, all the while hiding the shameful secret that’s buried inside you. Coming here reminds me that I’m not alone.

      That said, I just wanted to chime in and offer a defense of ruruland. I get that his optimistic, largely pro-Melo takes are not in keeping with KB’s whole “misery loves company” zeitgeist. And I don’t always agree with what he has to say. But his posts do offer a refreshing change from the usual bill of fare here and, at the very least, help me to remember that rooting for a sports team – no matter how futile an exercise it may seem – is basically an act of faith.

      That ruruland continues to express his faith in a milieu where all the smart folks are busily renouncing their own is something that should be applauded, not mocked. Stand strong, my bruthah!

    27. massive

      We went on the road and played last year’s #1 seed in the west and and last year’s NBA champions in a back-to-back. I don’t think we could have expected them to win, or play too well for that matter. Hopefully we’ll destroy Milwaukee tomorrow.

    28. Gideon Zaga

      I did expect us to win but I wanted to see some consistency, can we get a stop when we needed, can we box out, can rebound all consistently. The strange thing about last night was that the offense was there but that sieve like Dantoni defense from last season returned last night. That defense was bad, 60 points in the paint? My God.

    29. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland’s posts are, even if I don’t agree with much of what he says, a very nice thing for this blog, because they’re always consistent and based on actual thoughts and stats, and not only gut feeling.

      it’s much better than the “Fields sucks! Shumpert sucks!” crowd that comes up every game thread.

    30. Eternal OptiKnist

      Unfortunately, beating the bucks at home has now become a must-win and contains intense pressure. Philly too, for that matter..

    31. thenamestsam

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      I was never expecting to win in Dallas or San Antonio…but i was expecting a competitve game at the very least.We never seemed to have any real mojo in either game…even the 4th quarter comeback in Dallas..you never sensed it was real.I don’t even know what to say.I just hope the team doesn’t start hanging their heads..the season isn’t over.I always did think Ruru was Melo, lol.

      The team getting discouraged is my biggest fear as well. This team is in an extremely unique situation. They have about 5 current important members of the rotation who were either not on the team or buried deep on the bench to starts the season. It is uncommon but not unheard of for teams to go through that sort of massive upheaval. What makes the Knicks situation unique is that they’re doing this while having massive expectations. Because of Linsanity and the subsequent return of two guys with superstar reputations this team is expected to win right now immediately after what amounted to an almost total reconstruction of the team. I personally am a little dubious about what the upside of this team will be if they put everything together, but my biggest concern is that the “putting everything together” part will never happen because the weight of the expectations on this team will tear it apart.

    32. Gideon Zaga

      Is this what it’s come to, excuses, if they had won in Dallas most of you and the media would be talking championship. We micro-manage the Knicks more so than the Lakers so yeah excuses won’t cut it. We are like the Dallas Cowboys of Football aka America’s team. It’s become championship or bust.

      massive:
      We went on the road and played last year’s #1 seed in the west and and last year’s NBA champions in a back-to-back. I don’t think we could have expected them to win, or play too well for that matter. Hopefully we’ll destroy Milwaukee tomorrow.

    33. johnlocke

      Interesting Skip Bayless — who usually says idiotic stuff — thinks the Knicks will be in the Eastern Conference Finals (he said this after the loss in Dallas) — not sure if I I can feel too good about his prediction, but nice to hear nonetheless..that’s why we love sports

      Count de Pennies:
      I really like this site; been reading it for years but rarely post myself.

      I’ve come to appreciate the mix of personalities here and (with the exception of the occasional gratuitous attack) enjoy reading what everyone has to say.

      Living as a Knick fan on the West Coast for the better part of the past 20 years has felt something like being in the Witness Protection Program. You learn to survive by feigning an interest in the local team, all the while hiding the shameful secret that’s buried inside you. Coming here reminds me that I’m not alone.

      That said, I just wanted to chime in and offer a defense of ruruland. I get that his optimistic, largely pro-Melo takes are not in keeping with KB’s whole “misery loves company” zeitgeist. And I don’t always agree with what he has to say. But his posts do offer a refreshing change from the usual bill of fare here and, at the very least, help me to remember that rooting for a sports team – no matter how futile an exercise it may seem – is basically an act of faith.

      That ruruland continues to express his faith in a milieu where all the smart folks are busily renouncing their own is something that should be applauded, not mocked. Stand strong, my bruthah!

    34. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Bruno Almeida:
      ruruland’s posts are, even if I don’t agree with much of what he says, a very nice thing for this blog, because they’re always consistent and based on actual thoughts and stats, and not only gut feeling.

      it’s much better than the “Fields sucks! Shumpert sucks!” crowd that comes up every game thread.

      I don’t think Shumpert sucks. I just think you have to put a lot of faith in the margins of the box score to think that he’s better than all of his stats suggest.

      jon abbey says that Fields sucks because he feels it. I won’t ever say that about Shumpert. I just have to temper my enthusiasm for his outstanding defense and unquestionable athleticism with the fact that he has been a piss-poor offensive player this year.

    35. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      johnlocke:
      Interesting Skip Bayless — who usually says idiotic stuff — thinks the Knicks will be in the Eastern Conference Finals (he said this after the loss in Dallas) — not sure if I I can feel too good about his prediction, but nice to hear nonetheless..that’s why we love sports

      Add this to the list of idiotic stuff that fake-tanned, big-mouthed moron has vomited over the years. He’s neck and neck with Cowherd for the Rush Limbaugh Life Achievement for the Ruin of Society through Broadcasting Award.

    36. Bruno Almeida

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t think Shumpert sucks. I just think you have to put a lot of faith in the margins of the box score to think that he’s better than all of his stats suggest.

      jon abbey says that Fields sucks because he feels it. I won’t ever say that about Shumpert. I just have to temper my enthusiasm for his outstanding defense and unquestionable athleticism with the fact that he has been a piss-poor offensive player this year.

      I wasn’t referring to you, you actually explain based on stats and analysis why you think Fields is a better option than Shumpert (and I agree with that, Fields is a better starter for this team imo).

      but people keep bashing Fields even though he’s been playing better, and then when Shumpert starts, they bash him too, even though we hardly can attribute this team’s failures to the starting SG when he makes like, 1 mil a year.

    37. The Raging Platypus

      hoolahoop:
      One liners, scout style, on the starting five.
      Melo – great scoring ability, but doesn’t play team ball. doesn’t move without the ball. ballstopper.

      Lin – highly over rated. No court vision when double teamed. pooer defender.

      Amare – legs look tired. Elbow jumper off. Occasional flashes of yesteryear. Matador defender.

      Chandler – highly efficient, close to the basket scorer. excellent help defender. too many stupid technical fouls.

      Fields – high IQ player. Great off the ball movement. makes a lot happen that’s not in the box score. trouble hitting the three.

      I’m kind of mystified by Lin’s play lately – he demonstrated a pretty good knack for passing off the PnR during the Linsanity streak, so I don’t understand why he keeps missing Amare rolling towards the basket when the interior defenders collapse on him. It’s disappointing, to say the least.

    38. Bruno Almeida

      and well, we all know how idiotic Skip Bayless is, he’s obviously just throwing it out there because he knows nobody will question him when his predictions blow up, which will most certainly happen… and if he’s right, he can sell himself as a genius, something he already does but would get irritatingly reinforced.

    39. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t think Shumpert sucks. I just think you have to put a lot of faith in the margins of the box score to think that he’s better than all of his stats suggest.

      jon abbey says that Fields sucks because he feels it. I won’t ever say that about Shumpert. I just have to temper my enthusiasm for his outstanding defense and unquestionable athleticism with the fact that he has been a piss-poor offensive player this year.

      hehe, it’s not that I “feel it”, it’s that current basketball stats mostly suck and I think can often be ignored when you’re talking about a team or a player that you watch every game of. they’re sometimes insightful, but almost as often, very misleading. Hollinger said a few days ago after the Sloan Sports Conference:

      “At some point in the not-too-distant future somebody is going to be able to model every action on the court and its marginal impact on a given possession’s scoring probability, on both offense and defense, and we’re going to learn all kinds of crazy things that will make today’s “advanced” stats seem hopelessly anachronistic. “

    40. thenamestsam

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Add this to the list of idiotic stuff that fake-tanned, big-mouthed moron has vomited over the years. He’s neck and neck with Cowherd for the Rush Limbaugh Life Achievement for the Ruin of Society through Broadcasting Award.

      He’s such a d-bag and he understands how to play the shock jock game as well as anyone. This is a classic example. Make an outrageous, dumb prediction and say it like you’re absolutely certain. If you’re wrong you can say some other outrageous thing and everyone will forget about the last thing in the chaos created by the new thing. If the Knicks go out in the first round instead of discussing the fact that he was wrong he’ll scream his head off about how Melo will never win a championship or Lin is a bust or whatever else. If they somehow fulfill his prediction though he’ll crow at the top of his lungs about how he was the only guy who saw it coming.

    41. Eternal OptiKnist

      Do you think the team needs literal gel? Like, maybe it would help if they used only gel products…you know..shaving gel, gel toothpaste, gelstick deodorant…there’s even a new gel detergent from Arm & Hammer. They should also be allowed more time to use these gel products.

    42. Bruno Almeida

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      I am so tired of gelling

      I’m really tired of this talk too.

      the Clippers are freaking 22-15 and 4th in a much tougher western conference and they have faced similar roster turnaround as we did, while having to deal with injuries to Paul and a season-ending one to Billups.

      the time for excuses is over.

    43. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida: I’m really tired of this talk too.

      the Clippers are freaking 22-15 and 4th in a much tougher western conference and they have faced similar roster turnaround as we did, while having to deal with injuries to Paul and a season-ending one to Billups.

      the time for excuses is over.

      I don’t totally disagree with the latter, but a great PG means instant chemistry, as we saw briefly with Lin before he started to fall back to earth.

      also the Clippers have lost six of nine, they’re in some trouble there currently.

    44. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey: I don’t totally disagree with the latter, but a great PG means instant chemistry, as we saw briefly with Lin before he started to fall back to earth.

      also the Clippers have lost six of nine, they’re in some trouble there currently.

      that is true, having your superstar player be a PG really helps a team get together quickly… but I think the biggest part of it is that Paul is on a totally different level than Carmelo is, and even Blake (who I don’t like much) is now much better than Amare…

      what pisses me off is to think that the Clippers got Paul for a package that ended up being a lot worse than what we gave up for Melo… the Wolves pick is no longer the fantastic asset it seemed to be (it might not even be lottery anymore), Kaman will get traded for not much or leave as an FA and Gordon has been a 100% bust for New Orleans and will probably leave too.

      I know it’s useless to get back to this subject, but I can’t help myself.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      So our next first round pick is when?

      I think we have one in 2013, 2015 and then 2017 we’re back to normal.

    46. Frank

      Bruno Almeida: I think we have one in 2013, 2015 and then 2017 we’re back to normal.

      I think we’re missing 2012 and 2014 and we have all the rest of our picks, except in 2016 DEN can swap picks with us.

      Glad to see Owen has already given up on the season after an OT loss to Boston and two road games to probably top 6-7 teams in the entire league.

      Re: Ruruland and Melo – no one, not even ruru, can defend the way Melo has played in the last few weeks. But the venom towards Melo has been constant since pretty much day 1 he came here, in classic NY style. If he drops 42/17/6 and nearly wins a game against the Celtics IN BOSTON with D-league teammates, it’s still his fault because he passed to Jefferies.

      Milwaukee game is quite big – I think the anxiety about the team will be much better if we have a good performance there. But if TC and Jefferies are out again, even Drew Gooden might have a career game against us. Meanwhile who is Ilyasova and when did he become so awesome?

    47. JLam

      Im officially on the fire DA bandwagon.
      With Lin Ball last month, he promise the offense will be better with Stat and Melo back…is it? Not really
      DA promise that with addition of JR and Baron, that the PG offense will run more effectively..has it? No.
      DA promise that with the practice time after all-star break the team will play better together….has it? No it looks more disorganized.
      Okay so we get everyone scoring we can produce 115 point in every game….But where’s the D? Without Tyler and Jeffries last night we look really pathetic guarding around our hoop.
      Okay DA I m giving you 10 more games to get the offensive stars to play some D and win some games.

    48. TheXman

      Frank: I think we’re missing 2012 and 2014 and we have all the rest of our picks, except in 2016 DEN can swap picks with us.

      Glad to see Owen has already given up on the season after an OT loss to Boston and two road games to probably top 6-7 teams in the entire league.

      Re: Ruruland and Melo – no one, not even ruru, can defend the way Melo has played in the last few weeks. But the venom towards Melo has been constant since pretty much day 1 he came here, in classic NY style. If he drops 42/17/6 and nearly wins a game against the Celtics IN BOSTON with D-league teammates, it’s still his fault because he passed to Jefferies.

      Milwaukee game is quite big – I think the anxiety about the team will be much better if we have a good performance there. But if TC and Jefferies are out again, even Drew Gooden might have a career game against us.Meanwhile who is Ilyasova and when did he become so awesome?

      I am pretty sure we will lose to the Bucks, then the NY Media is going to call for D’Antoni’s head. Melo will be seriously taken to the woodshed. Do you recall all the consternation towards Melo returning, fearing he would fuck it all up? Well it’s certainly come true. Lin isn’t himself, people say he’s “come” back to Earth, but he’s really just changed his game. He’s not doing the same things he used to when Amare and Melo were out, maybe it’s the defenses against him, but his aggressiveness and crisp passes are gone (maybe afraid to make TOs, see his turnovers are down guys).
      Melo cannot play in this offense, this is just not the right offense with him. And we cannot play with a defensive-deficient PF. People are going to lambast me for going off the deep-end, but if we can trade both these guys, we should do it. Do it for draft picks and reasonable contracts. At least our pick this year is top 5 protected, maybe we can luck into…

    49. Count de Pennies

      Are people really holding Melo accountable for the fact that Lin is no longer playing at the level of a Top-3 PG?

      I think it was always an unrealistic expectation to think that Lin would be able to sustain what he was doing at the height of Linsanity (against some pretty crappy defenses to boot) I recall telling some folks that Top-3 PGs don’t just fall through the cracks and that there had to be flaws in Lin’s game that would be exposed in short order.

      I have no idea how good – or not – Jeremy Lin will ultimately turn out to be. But the suggestion that his recent, all too predictable, fall from grace is largely the fault of Melo is beyond absurd.

    50. Gideon Zaga

      Cosign x3. Welcome Aboard! There’s plenty of room, finally we’re beginning to see the light.

      JLam:
      Im officially on the fire DA bandwagon.
      With Lin Ball last month, he promise the offense will be better with Stat and Melo back…is it? Not really
      DA promise that with addition of JR and Baron, that the PG offense will run more effectively..has it? No.
      DA promise that with the practice timeafter all-star break the team will play better together….has it? No it looks more disorganized.
      Okay so we get everyone scoring we can produce 115 point in every game….But where’s the D? Without Tyler and Jeffries last night we look really pathetic guarding around our hoop.
      Okay DA I m giving you 10 more games to get the offensive stars to play some D and win some games.

    51. Gideon Zaga

      Like I .always said he is a product of the Dantoni system and I was never caught up in the tebow-like mania .despite that I loved the wins. I was quite perplexed at how everyone handed him the keys to the kingdom after so few games. Like David Stern said, you know everyone coming into this league as far as high school.

      Count de Pennies:
      Are people really holding Melo accountable for the fact that Lin is no longer playing at the level of a Top-3 PG?

      I think it was always an unrealistic expectation to think that Lin would be able to sustain what he was doing at the height of Linsanity (against some pretty crappy defenses to boot) I recall telling some folks that Top-3 PGs don’t just fall through the cracks and that there had to be flaws in Lin’s game that would be exposed in short order.

      I have no idea how good – or not – Jeremy Lin will ultimately turn out to be. But the suggestion that his recent, all too predictable, fall from grace is largely the fault of Melo is beyond absurd.

    52. d-mar

      Count de Pennies:
      Are people really holding Melo accountable for the fact that Lin is no longer playing at the level of a Top-3 PG?

      I think it was always an unrealistic expectation to think that Lin would be able to sustain what he was doing at the height of Linsanity (against some pretty crappy defenses to boot) I recall telling some folks that Top-3 PGs don’t just fall through the cracks and that there had to be flaws in Lin’s game that would be exposed in short order.

      I have no idea how good – or not – Jeremy Lin will ultimately turn out to be. But the suggestion that his recent, all too predictable, fall from grace is largely the fault of Melo is beyond absurd.

      Amen, the reason Lin is struggling is because all the other teams in the NBA were tired of hearing about Linsanity and have been loading up for him. Do people really think he’d still be putting up 25 and 12 games if Melo wasn’t playing. That’s just ridiculous.

    53. Frank

      d-mar: Amen, the reason Lin is struggling is because all the other teams in the NBA were tired of hearing about Linsanity and have been loading up for him. Do people really think he’d still be putting up 25 and 12 games if Melo wasn’t playing. That’s just ridiculous.

      I do think there is something to the idea that with Melo + Amare around, Lin doesn’t want to dominate the ball like he did during that run – so maybe that is decreasing his aggressiveness and therefore his effectiveness.

      Meanwhile it looks like Jerome Jordan is back. His stats there are pretty impressive – per 36 he basically average 20, 10, and 3 blocks.

    54. Will the Thrill

      What do you guys think will realistically happen if we get swept again in the first round by Bulls/Heat? Will we finally give up on the core of this team? Or give up on D’antoni? Or both?

    55. BKQuick1

      Melo is a good scorer, mediocre defender.

      Amare is/was a good scorer, terrible defender. (I don’t know what his deal is but I’m tired of seeing any big who can walk and breath at the same time going for career highs against him)

      Lin is a good scorer, poor defender (can’t seem to guard anyone)

      Tyson is a poor scorer, great defender (doesn’t create own offense)

      Fields is mediocre defender, poor scorer (doesn’t seem capable of creating his own shot). Can we try JR as a starter?

      As much as people assault Melo, Lin’s play since Melo returned has not be anything to be excited about. Melo’s offense to me is not as big an issue as Stats inability to defend ANYONE! I’ve seen Melo play good D in flashes. Amare’s effort in spurts against Dirk was the first time all year where it looked like it mattered to him if the opponent scorted!

      They’ve got plenty of scoring on this team so the issue for me is not whether Melo gets 20 or 15, it’s whether or not either of the two Stupa Stars will commit to playing defense with any consistency.

    56. flossy

      Count de Pennies:
      Are people really holding Melo accountable for the fact that Lin is no longer playing at the level of a Top-3 PG?

      I think it was always an unrealistic expectation to think that Lin would be able to sustain what he was doing at the height of Linsanity (against some pretty crappy defenses to boot) I recall telling some folks that Top-3 PGs don’t just fall through the cracks and that there had to be flaws in Lin’s game that would be exposed in short order.

      I have no idea how good – or not – Jeremy Lin will ultimately turn out to be. But the suggestion that his recent, all too predictable, fall from grace is largely the fault of Melo is beyond absurd.

      Okay, but wasn’t the idea that with Melo and Amar’e back in the lineup Lin wouldn’t have to play like a superhero, and we’d be able to win with a more balanced attack even as Lin came back to earth? Instead, Lin’s performance has suffered and our star scoring forwards haven’t really been able to make up for it.

    57. nicos

      A quick post mortem on last night as I just watched the game on synergy (or at least every play with the Knicks on defense). First, how ironic is it to see Pop basically running D’A's offense?? Great coach. Two, Amar’e was awful though he wasn’t as awful in the pnr as I thought on first viewing- he had three or four horrible plays but on the rest either the guards were every bit as culpable as he was or the defense was okay and the Spurs scored anyway. Lin was really bad- every time he hits a screen it looks like he’s playing freeze tag. Fields is the same way. Also, the wings never made any adjustment to sag in to help and there were multiple plays where Parker turned the corner on Amar’e three feet beyond the free throw line and the wings were actually in good position to rotate and help and not once did they even try- maybe they’re too used to having Chandler as a safety net, otherwise there’s no explanation for it. Of course, Amar’e wasn’t particularly good on non-pnr plays either. He lost players on cuts a couple of times and gave up too many offensive rebounds so he earned a solid F on that side of the ball. Still, Lin’s defense on the pnr was every bit as bad as Amar’e's. Shumpert wasn’t great but played better D than I thought on first watching- Parker beat him a couple of times and he made a couple of unnecessary switches which led to mismatches but overall he was okay. Novak- terrible. Fields- certainly not his worst defensive gain but not particularly good either. Other than losing Leonard on a couple of cuts Melo didn’t get burned but made little effort to help or get on the boards. Davis and Smith both played pretty well defensively- the difference between Lin and Davis on that end of the court might explain how davis has had better +/- numbers despite going almost 0 for everything since he’s come back. Jorts was fine but he’s a little too slow to play the Chandler/Jeffries helper role as effectively as those guys.

    58. ess-dog

      Will the Thrill:
      What do you guys think will realistically happen if we get swept again in the first round by Bulls/Heat? Will we finally give up on the core of this team? Or give up on D’antoni? Or both?

      I don’t see any fate other than a first round exit for the Knicks in 2012. I think Stat lost a lot of value moving to pf. His value was replaced by chandler somewhat, and Lin was a nice find but realistically, we’re not much if at all better than our team that was ousted from the first round last year.

      I think D’Antoni will not be picked up after this year and we’ll try to move Amare during the offseason or the next season. Maybe Phil Jax comes in or a standard defensive coach, who knows…

    59. Count de Pennies

      Frank: I do think there is something to the idea that with Melo + Amare around, Lin doesn’t want to dominate the ball like he did during that run – so maybe that is decreasing his aggressiveness and therefore his effectiveness.

      Fair enough.

      There’s no question that Lin benefited from the absence of Melo and Stat. Without no clear-cut Alpha Dogs on the offense, the team needed someone to step in and fill the void. And to his credit, Lin rose to the challenge and acquitted himself brilliantly.

      Problem is that at his current stage of development, Jeremy Lin is just not good enough to be a team’s offensive Alpha Dog. He was never going to remain the #1 scoring option. At some point, he would have had to take on a more complementary, more traditional PG, role and adjust his game to fit with a big time scorer in the offense.

      In this case, it happened to be Melo. But had it been anyone else, Lin likely would have had similar, if not identical, adjustment issues. Yet some people are using this as another club with which to bash Melo. And there’s really no need. There’s more than enough reasons to dislike Melo, if you’re so inclined: the size of his contract; the rather one-dimensional nature of his game; the fact that he does not equal Gallo + Chandler + Felton + Mozgov + AR + one 1st + two 2nd round picks are all legit beefs. No need to dummy up any phantom new ones along the lines of “He made Jeremy Lin suck.”

    60. Owen

      NY2MIA – That’s actually a great read. Definitely worth checking out everyone. Thanks for posting and welcome aboard….

      Basically, the Lin-Melo-Anthony trio is getting destroyed (-9) differentail). Our offense during Linsanity was just average, but our defense was incredible. Which makes sense with such a heavy dose of Shump, Chandler, and Jeffries. And, also, unsurprisingly, pretty much all of Lin’s big success has come with Novak on the floor. 117 points per 100.

      Plenty of fodder for discussion.

    61. Nick C.

      Owen or anyone, you think a lot of Linsanity was in effect flukish good shooting Novakmania?

    62. Frank

      Nick C.:
      Owen or anyone, you think a lot of Linsanity was in effect flukish good shooting Novakmania?

      I had the same thought – but during that run, Lin was running around with a PER north of 25, so he was definitely doing a lot on his own. 38/7 against the Lakers, 28/14 against Dallas – these were not necessarily related to Novak’s crazy awesomeness.

    63. Owen

      “Owen or anyone, you think a lot of Linsanity was in effect flukish good shooting Novakmania?”

      I agree with the article. Linsanity was a combination of a very easy schedule with a lot of bad teams and home games, great defense, and Lin playing the high usage role very well. And Novak was extremely good.

      I don’t think it was a fluke, per se. But I don’t think it would have happened in a stretch where we played Miami twice and Boston twice. And I don’t think it was only about Lin.

      There are huge diminishing returns to having high usage players on the court. I think the optimal amount is 1.5. And we have 3 in our starting lineup.

      The utility in high usage players is that they create space for high value role players to operate. That’s pretty much it. That’s why Iverson made an NBA Final. He had a sick group of high quality defenders around him (Hill, Lynch, Mutombo, Mckie). He supplied the points, (inefficiently), they supplied the defense and o-boards, and together they made it work.

      Having a bunch of high usage, score first players out there? It’s just not going to work.

    64. dubisaweapon

      Count de Pennies:
      I really like this site; been reading it for years but rarely post myself.

      I’ve come to appreciate the mix of personalities here and (with the exception of the occasional gratuitous attack) enjoy reading what everyone has to say.

      Living as a Knick fan on the West Coast for the better part of the past 20 years has felt something like being in the Witness Protection Program. You learn to survive by feigning an interest in the local team, all the while hiding the shameful secret that’s buried inside you. Coming here reminds me that I’m not alone.

      That said, I just wanted to chime in and offer a defense of ruruland. I get that his optimistic, largely pro-Melo takes are not in keeping with KB’s whole “misery loves company” zeitgeist. And I don’t always agree with what he has to say. But his posts do offer a refreshing change from the usual bill of fare here and, at the very least, help me to remember that rooting for a sports team – no matter how futile an exercise it may seem – is basically an act of faith.

      That ruruland continues to express his faith in a milieu where all the smart folks are busily renouncing their own is something that should be applauded, not mocked. Stand strong, my bruthah!

      +Melo’s max contract

    65. thenamestsam

      Owen:
      “Owen or anyone, you think a lot of Linsanity was in effect flukish good shooting Novakmania?”

      I agree with the article. Linsanity was a combination of a very easy schedule with a lot of bad teams and home games, great defense, and Lin playing the high usage role very well. And Novak was extremely good.

      I don’t think it was a fluke, per se. But I don’t think it would have happened in a stretch where we played Miami twice and Boston twice. And I don’t think it was only about Lin.

      There are huge diminishing returns to having high usage players on the court. I think the optimal amount is 1.5. And we have 3 in our starting lineup.

      The utility in high usage players is that they create space for high value role players to operate. That’s pretty much it. That’s why Iverson made an NBA Final. He had a sick group of high quality defenders around him (Hill, Lynch, Mutombo, Mckie). He supplied the points, (inefficiently), they supplied the defense and o-boards, and together they made it work.

      Having a bunch of high usage, score first players out there? It’s just not going to work.

      I agree, and it seems like the answer is for one of them to go to the bench. The 3 of them should almost never be playing together in my opinion. If Amare could be sold on the idea of being a 6th man they could start with Novak to keep the space for the PnR. That would allow Amare to play more as a center and be the offensive focus of the 2nd unit. That would be my preference because I think making Lin or Melo a bench guy would cause too much firestorm and because they’re the better players right now.

    66. Nick C.

      Frank: I had the same thought – but during that run, Lin was running around with a PER north of 25, so he was definitely doing a lot on his own. 38/7 against the Lakers, 28/14 against Dallas – these were not necessarily related to Novak’s crazy awesomeness.

      How quickly I forgot.

    67. jon abbey

      Jerome Jordan recalled for tomorrow’s game, he should get PT with Chandler and Jeffries out.

    68. Frank

      Owen:

      There are huge diminishing returns to having high usage players on the court. I think the optimal amount is 1.5. And we have 3 in our starting lineup.

      This I can wholeheartedly agree with, with the hope being that both Amare and Melo were good enough shooters to alternate being the lower-usage guy. That’s really been the most surprising thing – how HORRIBLE they both have shot the ball.

      Amare – still finishing at the rim at 65+%, but from 3-9, 10-15, and 16-23 feet he is WELL BELOW his previous career LOWS (not his averages, but his lows).

      Melo is actually shooting fewer long 2′s than the last few years, but is only shooting 30% from there (previously had been in the 40-45% range). And he’s horrible from 3-9 feet at 21%.

      I would love to think that this is just some horrible simultaneous shooting slump and that they will “progress” to the mean, ie. we will go on some ridiculous hot streak soon. That’s the thing though – a lot of these shots are just wide open and they are just bricking them.

    69. PC

      Will the Thrill: What do you guys think will realistically happen if we get swept again in the first round by Bulls/Heat? Will we finally give up on the core of this team? Or give up on D’antoni? Or both?

      “FINALLY” give up on the core? We just started. Geez. Melo and Amare have played how many games together? Not many. We just got out franchise PG a few weeks ago. We just acquired a center. We just got a wing defender. We just acquired depth.

      Let’s blow it up if the Heat or Bulls spank us? What a joke.

      So, to answer your question. No. As to D’Antoni, he will be the fall guy. But not rightfully so. This team plays poor defense (hidden by Chandler’s incredible efforts each night) and can’t shoot. So every coach will struggle with this team.

    70. max fisher-cohen

      Owen:
      “Owen or anyone, you think a lot of Linsanity was in effect flukish good shooting Novakmania?”

      I agree with the article. Linsanity was a combination of a very easy schedule with a lot of bad teams and home games, great defense, and Lin playing the high usage role very well. And Novak was extremely good.

      I don’t think it was a fluke, per se. But I don’t think it would have happened in a stretch where we played Miami twice and Boston twice. And I don’t think it was only about Lin.

      There are huge diminishing returns to having high usage players on the court. I think the optimal amount is 1.5. And we have 3 in our starting lineup.

      The utility in high usage players is that they create space for high value role players to operate. That’s pretty much it. That’s why Iverson made an NBA Final. He had a sick group of high quality defenders around him (Hill, Lynch, Mutombo, Mckie). He supplied the points, (inefficiently), they supplied the defense and o-boards, and together they made it work.

      Having a bunch of high usage, score first players out there? It’s just not going to work.

      Thank you, Owen. Very well put. These teams like Boston and Miami have multiple “stars” but they are all guys who contribute in ways other than being primary scoring options and creating space for teammates. Allen and Pierce play great defense and are killer spot up shooters. Even Garnett is a decent spot up guy. With regard to Wade and James, it’s all about their suffocating defense. The Heat offense is actually worse than the Cavs’ offense was at at its peak.

    71. ess-dog

      Owen:
      NY2MIA – That’s actually a great read. Definitely worth checking out everyone. Thanks for posting and welcome aboard….

      Basically, the Lin-Melo-Anthony triois getting destroyed (-9) differentail). Our offense during Linsanity was just average, but our defense was incredible. Which makes sense with such a heavy dose of Shump, Chandler, and Jeffries. And, also, unsurprisingly, pretty much all of Lin’s big success has come with Novak on the floor. 117 points per 100.

      Plenty of fodder for discussion.

      I also agree with the article and it more or less shows how Amare and Melo (and Fields somewhat) overlap in skillset.

      Having a shooter like Gallo next to Amare was more ideal, just as having a shooter like Novak or Jorts (if Jorts can actually shoot) at the 4 next to Melo is more ideal. Especially since Lin isn’t the best three point shooter, nor are our current shooting guards.

      In theory, Douglas and Smith shoot the three well, but it’s pretty helpful for spacing to have a big that can shoot the three.

    72. ess-dog

      PC: “FINALLY” give up on the core?We just started.Geez. Melo and Amare have played how many games together?Not many.We just got out franchise PG a few weeks ago.We just acquired a center.We just got a wing defender.We just acquired depth.

      Let’s blow it up if the Heat or Bulls spank us?What a joke.

      So, to answer your question. No. As to D’Antoni, he will be the fall guy. But not rightfully so.This team plays poor defense (hidden by Chandler’s incredible efforts each night) and can’t shoot. So every coach will struggle with this team.

      You just basically said hell no we shouldn’t give up on a team that plays terrible defense and can’t shoot. Give them more time.

      ?

    73. max fisher-cohen

      NY2MIA: http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/03/07/knicks-face-huge-challenge-on-offense/?sct=nba_t11_a5

      I’ve heard the “defense made Linsanity work” argument before and have made it myself. The defense was a huge part of the team’s success. What I don’t like is the suggestion that it’s not an achievement for a team featuring 3 defensive specialists in Chandler, Jeffries and Shumpert to perform as well on offense as a team featuring two offensive specialists in Stoudemire and Anthony. That is a huge achievement. Another fact the article ignores is that the entire early portion of the Knicks’ season was against a really weak schedule. The Linsanity portion was only slightly easier.

    74. Owen

      “max fisher-cohen
      March 8, 2012 at 4:25 pm (Edit)
      BTW, anyone notice how ridiculously similar STAT and Melo’s advanced stats were last season? They look like the same player: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=stoudam01&y2=2011#advanced::none”

      I am pretty sure I am on record as saying during the Melo arrival lead up that you couldn’t find two more duplicative players in the NBA. As those stats bear out…

      They still ought to be playing better.

      I do totally agree about Gallo and Amare. Reading the Sloan Synergy paper made the point that they were able to isolate the best player pair combination, a big man and a three point shooting wing 3-4. Captain obvious I know but it definitely worked better btw those two with Gallo on the 3 point line…

      The problem with Melo is that, for all his offensive “talent,” he is a below average three point shooter. That is, except for as a Knick last year, when he took more and made more threes than he ever has before.

      The only shred of hope I have is that Melo can get back to shooting the ball like he did last year from three….

    75. Frank

      ess-dog: You just basically said hell no we shouldn’t give up on a team that plays terrible defense and can’t shoot.Give them more time.

      I think he sort of contradicted himself within the same post, but I think his point was that we should give the team some time before we blow it up. We obviously CAN play good defense if guys like Jefferies and TC are healthy. We have a bunch of guys who have a long track record of being pretty good shooters – Amare has shown to be a ~45% shooter from 16-23 feet in his career, which is top 15-20 in the league for PF/C players. Melo is probably an average shooter. JR Smith is a very GOOD shooter and up until yesterday had been just awful.

      I’ve been saying patience patience for a while now, and just hope that this thing comes together before we are stuck too far into the 8 seed. If we get the 8 seed then I really hope Chicago wins the East – I don’t think we have a prayer against Miami.

    76. Owen

      From July 2010 – At least I have been consistent….

      “There are really only five players in the NBA worth owning on a max contract for the next five years. Lebron, Wade, Paul, Durant, and Howard. Winning a championship with Amare on a max contract and without one of those five is a pipe dream. Carmelo is not the answer. As I said above, it would be hard to find two more duplicative talents than Melo and Stoudemire.”

      Of course, I sold pretty low on Gallo in that thread. And the list of max contract worthy players might need amending…

    77. Gamecockerbocker

      Man, Melo almost lost that game for Cuse earlier today. Thank god he doesn’t play for them any more.

    78. nicos

      Frank:

      Amare – still finishing at the rim at 65+%, but from 3-9, 10-15, and 16-23 feet he is WELL BELOW his previous career LOWS (not his averages, but his lows).

      I think part of Amar’e's struggles in that 3-9 range is in Phoenix a lot more of those shots were assisted- more quick flashes into the paint and short shots off of the pnr. His shooting numbers last year didn’t dip much despite fewer assists because he was playing center with the floor spread so he was able to take one dribble and get an open floater without much trouble. This year, fewer pnr’s, no one (lin included) to hit him on quick cuts, and when he iso’s his got a quicker defender on him (and often Chandler’s guy sagged back as well) so those shots are all contested. He’s certainly moving better now than earlier in the season and the last few games they’ve put him in the pnr more often and he’s been fine offensively despite playing against pretty good defensive teams.

    79. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      BKQuick1:
      Tyson is a poor scorer, great defender (doesn’t create own offense)

      Are you telling me that the person who could set a league record in shooting efficiency is a poor scorer?

      And just because he can’t shoot beyond 5 feet from the basket does NOT mean that he’s a poor scorer. Lots of centers have no jump shot, but none of them have Chandler’s ridiculous efficiency. Chandler, despite a “limited” offensive skillset, is by far the best player in the league when it comes to converting into points the possessions he uses to score. His value as an offensive player is through the freaking roof, man. So he can’t do the Dream Shake. So what?

      You’re new here, right? Read the Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics before you jump into the discussion.

    80. bluemax

      max fisher-cohen: I’ve heard the “defense made Linsanity work” argument before and have made it myself. The defense was a huge part of the team’s success. What I don’t like is the suggestion that it’s not an achievement for a team featuring 3 defensive specialists in Chandler, Jeffries and Shumpert to perform as well on offense as a team featuring two offensive specialists in Stoudemire and Anthony. That is a huge achievement. Another fact the article ignores is that the entire early portion of the Knicks’ season was against a really weak schedule. The Linsanity portion was only slightly easier.

      Actually, the way the offense performed during linsanity was quite amazing if you consider that teams like minny and toronto are actually at least average on defense and that LA, dallas and atlanta are elite. Only NJ,UTA, CHA and SAC were poor defensive teams.
      If anything, the defensive rating is the one that might be inflated due to the weak schedule.

      To be fair though, a lot of the offense was generated from TO created from good defense.

    81. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Are you telling me that the person who could set a league record in shooting efficiency is a poor scorer?

      Chandler, despite a “limited” offensive skillset, is by far the best player in the league when it comes to converting into points the possessions he uses to score. His value as an offensive player is through the freaking roof, man. So he can’t do the Dream Shake. So what?

      You might want to check some stats yourself before jumping on people- Chandler’s currently fifth in the league in ppp. He’s not even the best on the Knicks- that would Steve Novak (who does lead the league). I’m not saying he’s not valuable- obviously he is- but usage really is an issue. There’s no play the Knicks have run more than the high screen & roll with Chandler- they ran with Melo a lot and now they run it constantly with Lin. Most of the time, he’s not open and the Knicks reset and run something else but it takes time off of the clock, it generally sticks either Amar’e or Melo in the corner where they’re useless, etc… Also, it may be just my eyes telling me this but it seems that a good number of turnovers by our guards have been trying to force the ball into Chandler (and Chandler’s turnover rate is a little high himself which is what hurts his ppp). Is it still the best play the Knicks could run? Probably- especially with Lin because he’s gotten a lot of good looks out of it as well. But as good as he’s been, I don’t think his year has been one of the all-time great offensive years as you make it out to be. His usage sits below 13% and given the amount off energy the Knicks have expended trying to get him the ball that’s not great.

    82. PC

      ess-dog: You just basically said hell no we shouldn’t give up on a team that plays terrible defense and can’t shoot. Give them more time.?

      I did. But I’m hoping that Melo and Amare’s ability to make shots comes back (I can’t believe that I am even writing that sentence). And, based on how much a hard worker Lin is, I think he’ll become a serious three point threat next year.

      But, the point is, its only been a few weeks with this roster. We have to be a bit more patient. I know that sux because patience probably equals an 8 seed, which equals an ass-whipping….but we can’t kill this team for not figuring it out right away.

    83. er

      lol i just read another idiotic post somewhere how denver is now “better” they are winning at a 55 percent clip now and when melo was there they won at 61 percent….who is doing this math?

    84. Owen

      Probably someone looking at their efficiency differential, and then making an adjustment for the fact that Gallinari and Nene have missed 13 and 15 game respectively….

      Nuggets are a game better than their record currently, slotting them in as the 10th best team in the NBA, by efficiency differential. They never went finished than 8 when Melo was in Denver.

      When they opened the season at 14-6 they looked like they might be the class of the second tier after Miami, Chicago, and Oklahoma. Then things came apart, injuries, schedule, other stuff. It will be interesting to see how they finish.

      It wouldn’t surprise me if they finish up around 7th or 8th in efficiency differential despite having “lost” the Melo trade…

    85. xduckshoex

      There are reports that Josh Smith wants out, I really wish there was some way the Knicks could convince the Hawks to take Amare for him.

    86. xduckshoex

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Are you telling me that the person who could set a league record in shooting efficiency is a poor scorer?

      Here is the flaw that never gets addressed though: volume matters. If you had a team full of guys like Chandler they would suck on offense because all of them are only high efficiency players because of their low usage. It’s great that Chandler realizes his limitations and stays within the somewhat limited role that he has developed for himself, but we can’t ignore the fact that his low usage and his high efficiency are directly related.

      And that’s not a criticism of Chandler at all, I think he has been great so far this season and I love what he is doing, but this notion that pure efficiency is all that matters requires continuously ignoring the relationship between efficiency and usage.

    87. max fisher-cohen

      Question for you all: Let’s say the Knicks replaced STAT and Melo with Pierce and Garnett. Where do they stand this season in terms of playoff/championship threat?

    88. 2FOR18

      So tired of hearing how our 2 superstars still need time to “gel” and “get reps” and “figure it out” with regards to playing with Lin.
      Why didn’t Chandler, Fields and Novac need time to figure things out? They won 7 in a freakin row with no practice. I’m tired of hearing about practice. They just had 2 weeks of practices and look worse now than ever.

      On a side note, I just saw “Eddie” and was cracking up listening to Ivan (“Ivan makes basket), so from now on Amare is “Ivan” to me, and Melo is Stacey Patton.

    89. Owen

      A starting lineup of Lin, Fields/Shump, Pierce, Garnett, T-1000…..

      With Davis, Smith, Novak, Jeffries off the bench?

      That’s the third best team in the East….

      Still have to give Chicago and Miami a big edge on that squad.

    90. hoolahoop

      max fisher-cohen:
      Question for you all: Let’s say the Knicks replaced STAT and Melo with Pierce and Garnett. Where do they stand this season in terms of playoff/championship threat?

      I think a much better trade would be Dantoni for Doc.
      The knicks would finish first in the division.

    91. Gamecockerbocker

      xduckshoex: Here is the flaw that never gets addressed though:volume matters.If you had a team full of guys like Chandler they would suck on offense because all of them are only high efficiency players because of their low usage.It’s great that Chandler realizes his limitations and stays within the somewhat limited role that he has developed for himself, but we can’t ignore the fact that his low usage and his high efficiency are directly related.

      And that’s not a criticism of Chandler at all, I think he has been great so far this season and I love what he is doing, but this notion that pure efficiency is all that matters requires continuously ignoring the relationship between efficiency and usage.

      If you could only build a team made out of guys in the top ten this year in EFG% you’d have a lineup that looked like this.

      1. Steve Nash/
      2. James Harden/Ray Allen
      3. LeBron James/Nicolas Batum
      4. Ryan Anderson/
      5. Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler or Bynum

      With TS%
      1. Nash/Curry/Chalmers
      2. Harden/Allen
      3. Durant
      4. James/Anderson
      5. Chandler

      I know you’re saying if you had a team of low usage, high efficiency guys, that team would suck, but most of the high efficiency guys do handle the ball a good amount and Chandler is the most efficient player in the league.

      It just wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the NBA if either of those two teams existed.

    92. thenamestsam

      I was also going to say 3rd best team in the east, but I don’t think it’s a big gap to Chicago. I guess it partly depends on the theoretical situation – are we swapping the players at this point in the season, or prior to the season? How much practice time do we get? I think that team could be very close to Chicago, maybe even a bit better given some time (and assuming that Pierce’s shooting is more what he has been showing recently than what he was to start the season). We’d be monsters on defense, and Pierce would be a better fit than Melo from an offensive standpoint b/c of better outside shooting. Plus with Garnett instead of Amare playing center on the 2nd unit we’d be much better defensively when Tyson was off the floor. I think with practice time we’d be better than OKC and basically nip and tuck with Chicago.

      Owen:
      A starting lineup of Lin, Fields/Shump, Pierce, Garnett, T-1000…..

      With Davis, Smith, Novak, Jeffries off the bench?

      That’s the third best team in the East….

      Still have to give Chicago and Miami a big edge on that squad.

    93. max fisher-cohen

      A lineup of Davis, Shumpert, Pierce, Garnett and Chandler would probably allow like 65 points a game. We could just let Davis shoot three pointers all game and only lose by about 5.

    94. Spree8nyk8

      I really don’t see how we can compete with Amar’e on the roster. I mean he’s a max guy that seemingly never wins his individual matchup. Last night the Spurs entire offensive gameplan seemed to be go at Amar’e, if Amar’e is not on you, force a switch to get him on you and then go at Amar’e. At least last year he was giving to them as much as they were giving to him. This year he’s a liability on both ends. I honestly think he would be better off being put with the second unit. The minutes he plays with them in the second and 4th quarter he seems to do a little better. But I really think that we have to trade him even if it means selling him short. Melo isn’t performing well either but he isn’t nearly the liability that Amar’e is. Idk, really depressed right now bc I’m sure we aren’t going to move him, don’t even know if we can move him. But if he’s going to start I’m pretty dismal about the rest of our season.

    95. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex:
      There are reports that Josh Smith wants out, I really wish there was some way the Knicks could convince the Hawks to take Amare for him.

      is there even a prayer that this could happen?

    96. hoolahoop

      As bad and frustrating as it is to be a knicks fan, they’re impossible to give up on because they’re loaded with talent. The knicks are not a talent depleted team with no hope. They’re a deep team that plays under their potential.
      Truth be told, Amare and Melo have plenty of talent. The key is for them is to play within their game just like TC does. That’s what makes TC so valuable. He doesn’t do stuff he can’t, namely shoot low percentage shots. As a first step, if Amare and Melo were more selective and took less shots per game, looked to raise their assist level, concentrated more on defense, and played with the energy of a rookie hoping to sign a long term contract, the knicks would be a better team.
      Basically, this is Dantoni’s job. But, that’s a story for another post.

    97. max fisher-cohen

      I have to say I’m beginning to hate Dwight Howard. He demands a trade because his team is not going anywhere — fair enough. The Magic have made terrible roster choices for years now, and they aren’t going anywhere. Now he doesn’t want to play with another star either. I guess I understand now why he wants to go to New Jersey — he wants to play on a team that is just like the Magic except in another city. I’m not sure though why he hasn’t added teams like Sacramento and Charlotte. If he went there, he would be the only star in the galaxy.

      It’s really sad because if he went to OKC or Chicago, Lebron and Wade really might not win a title together.

    98. hoolahoop

      I don’t understand all the piling on Amare. Last year he’s an MVP hero, now he’s the worst player in the league.
      A few people make arguments against him, then everyone just agrees Amare sucks. Amare doesn’t suck. Agree, he’s not playing as good as last year. However, this team has gone from selfless, team ball to SELFISH iso me me me ball. Amare excels in a ball movement, player motion, good spacing style of play . . . just like Fields and other players that have suddenly forgot how to play basketball.

      Amare came here when we had no one wanted to play for the knicks. Now, everyone wants to play here. He deserves a break.

    99. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Gamecockerbocker: If you could only build a team made out of guys in the top ten this year in EFG% you’d have a lineup that looked like this.

      1. Steve Nash/
      2. James Harden/Ray Allen
      3. LeBron James/Nicolas Batum
      4. Ryan Anderson/
      5. Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler or Bynum

      With TS%
      1. Nash/Curry/Chalmers
      2. Harden/Allen
      3. Durant
      4. James/Anderson
      5. Chandler

      I know you’re saying if you had a team of low usage, high efficiency guys, that team would suck, but most of the high efficiency guys do handle the ball a good amount and Chandler is the most efficient player in the league.

      It just wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the NBA if either of those two teams existed.

      Those are 60-70 win teams, all of them.

    100. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      hoolahoop:
      I don’t understand all the piling on Amare. Last year he’s an MVP hero, now he’s the worst player in the league.
      A few people make arguments against him, then everyone just agrees Amare sucks. Amare doesn’t suck. Agree, he’s not playing as good as last year. However, this team has gone from selfless, team ball to SELFISH iso me me me ball. Amare excels in a ball movement, player motion, good spacing style of play . . . just like Fields and other players that have suddenly forgot how to play basketball.

      Amare came here when we had no one wanted to play for the knicks. Now, everyone wants to play here. He deserves a break.

      He sucked last year too, for a franchise player. He got a free pass because the Knicks hadn’t touched the playoffs in years.

    101. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And what do you mean that no one wanted to play for the Knicks? They were over the cap so far that they couldn’t sign anyone! They had no draft picks and no cap space. Are you surprised that no one wanted to come?

      Hell, Eddy Curry wanted to come to NYC. You know why?

      $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    102. JC Knickfan

      With Melo coming back and being all-star we knew Lin would adjust his game. Unfortunate, offense look worst and Melo defense continue to be very undesirable.
      Right now we’ll never know if linsanity could have continued. Everyone saying scouting report is out and teams have adjusted. But if you watch first Dallas, the defense designed to stop J-Lin. Guess what, he still came through. The big difference with Lin as primary scorer vs Melo, better shooting %, getting foul line, and getting assists. Also I would like to see a stat on how often Lin’s layout misses created Knick get Off-rebound. With big man collapses on Lin it gives the knick bigs rebounding opportunity.

      Now looking at Melo iso – he seldom creates assist, shooting below league average and not getting to foul line.

      Running offense through Lin right now seems to be the better option.

    103. Spree8nyk8

      hoola, man I was one of the staunch Amar’e supporters, ask anyone.

      But he flat out can’t play defense. It’s not about his effort on D. He can’t do it. And if we don’t wanna trade him out of some misfed loyalty reason (he came here bc nobody else was gonna max him out). Well then at least get him out of the starting lineup. We cannot have one player constantly getting killed on defense. Last night it was Duncan over amar’e, parker switch to amar’e, oneal switch to amar’e, blair posting amar’e. I mean literally every possession was aimed so hard at him that I seriously felt SORRY for him. I felt sorry for a basketball player making the maximum amount of money possible. Because another team realized that they could pick on him and he would NEVER be able to do anything about it. I mean at least last year he could destroy on the offensive end enough to where he at least won his matchup. This year he gets destroyed the majority of the time. And the only thing you are talking about is how to make him better offensively. Well there isn’t a damn thing you can do to make him better defensively. I mean think about it. Jared Jeffries is outplaying him. If you have a way to combat that I’m all ears bc I sure as hell don’t see it.

    104. 2FOR18

      I love the idea of Amare playing center on the 2nd unit with Baron, JR, Fields and Jorts.

      On the first unit let Lin and Melo dominate the offense, with Shump and Chandler bracketing the D and Novac providing the spacing.

      I think the only way Amare provides any value is by scoring on slower centers. And the combo of Lin, Melo and Stat is just too “insulting”

    105. Owen

      Fun fact of the day: Kobe Bryant missed more shots than Bynum and Gasol took against the Wizards last night…

    106. Gamecockerbocker

      Owen:
      Fun fact of the day: Kobe Bryant missed more shots than Bynum and Gasol took against the Wizards last night…

      And Bynum basically blames himself for the loss. I couldn’t believe that.

    107. NY2MIA

      JC Knickfan:
      With Melo coming back and being all-star we knew Lin would adjust his game. Unfortunate, offense look worst and Melo defense continue to be very undesirable. Right now we’ll never know if linsanity could have continued. Everyone saying scouting report is out and teams have adjusted. But if you watch first Dallas, the defense designed to stop J-Lin. Guess what, he still came through. The big difference with Lin as primary scorer vs Melo, better shooting %, getting foul line, and getting assists.Also I would like to see a stat on how often Lin’s layout misses created Knick get Off-rebound.With big man collapses on Lin it gives the knick bigs rebounding opportunity.Now looking at Melo iso – he seldom creates assist, shooting below league average and not getting to foul line.
      Running offense through Lin right now seems to be the better option.

      I understand that this is may be a prevailing sentiment. But let’s remember that Lin has played Dallas twice. One he did very well and the second not so well. Carmelo played poorly but to indirectly claim that Lin’s play was a direct correlation can be considered a leap. I think Lin and Melo need to accept certain realities for this to work. Melo less ISO (but yes, some ISO) and more team ball yet still primary scorer because that’s his strength. Lin more facilitating and distributing and secondary or tertiary scorer (pass first) but understand that Melo is the main man. They can both be stars (be happy Linsaniacs) and it will take time. While a tough season so far, Melo is a special scorer whose value will become increasingly significant thru the playoffs be it this year or next because his NBA peers respect his game. Give it some time but to be honest I’m more concerned with Amare’s stats with Units.

      http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2011-2012&id=537

      Love the guy but the numbers are…

    108. taggart4800

      Pretend your Grunwald for a second… your sat in your office when suddenly your PA puts through a call from Arizona. In very hushed tones the voice says ‘Nash is available but we want JR, Lin and Big Country and a future 2nd…..’
      What do you do?

    109. taggart4800

      Really?? I’m not so sure… I would definitely mull it over at least. I know we could sign him in the summer but if they are really in a win now mode… Maybe the way to go?

    110. art vandelay

      I’m not even sure I would trade Lin alone for Nash straight up (though probably I would), let alone that host of other assets you proposed would be going to Phoenix for Nash.

    111. taggart4800

      My only consideration is Lin’s economic value. Other than that I think I pull the trigger. In my opinion your are vastly under valuing Nash’s worth. I would also try and swing a a deal for Extra E…

      I am purely kicking around in the dirt because.. well… there ain’t much else to do but wait otherwise

    112. Spree8nyk8

      Christ, trade a guy because he’s struggled some as defenses have focused on him? I mean isn’t this part of his development? I mean his turnovers seem to be going down some lately, he’s not making as many mistakes as far as I can see. I really don’t see Lin as being the troubled area on the team. I do however see a max guy that gives up more points than he scores as being a pretty big problem.

    113. taggart4800

      No its not IN ANYWAY a knock on Lin. Love the guy and think he is really good, however, we have a very limited window to win a championship and maybe you go for the house?
      Fully accept if I am way off base but if its me… I do the deal.
      Amare is getting no more athletic anytime soon and Lin, as good as he is, isn’t going left anytime soon either.

    114. Gamecockerbocker

      taggart4800:
      No its not IN ANYWAY a knock on Lin. Love the guy and think he is really good, however, we have a very limited window to win a championship and maybe you go for the house?
      Fully accept if I am way off base but if its me… I do the deal.
      Amare is getting no more athletic anytime soon and Lin, as good as he is, isn’t going left anytime soon either.

      Give Lin an off season and I bet he learns how to go left. Why get rid of someone so young who’s clearly shown he can play one of the most important positions on the floor at a high level? Nash, as great as he is, isn’t a defensive upgrade over Lin, isn’t getting any younger, and does not make New York a championship contender.

      I just don’t see how giving up a young PG with an awesome work ethic and high potential makes any sense, unless you get a player back who puts you in position to win a title.

    115. taggart4800

      Maybe I am over estimating Nash… I just think he is the guy to put us in a position to win a title.

    116. taggart4800

      And I don’t think Lin can cure that in one off season. He isn’t just some guy we pulled off the street, he has been playing high level basketball for numerous years without correcting it. It sounds like I don’t like him, but really I do and long term I agree he is the better option.
      If you are going to assemble the team the way they have why not go the whole 8 barrels and try and win the thing in the next 2 years whilst Amare can still walk.

    117. max fisher-cohen

      The more interesting proposal, I think, would be, say, Deron Williams and MarShon Brooks for Lin and Amaré.

    118. Bruno Almeida

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Those are 60-70 win teams, all of them.

      yeah, and there are some who still don’t “trust” efficiency stats… those are insane teams, both would obviously be title favourites.

      and leave Lin alone, obviously he was going to struggle, he’s started like 10 games in his whole NBA career and he’s already had to carry the weight of an entire success-starved fan base on the largest media market of the USA.

      he’ll get better, his struggles are even good from a business perspective because we might get to resign him for a cheaper price, we’re not going anywhere until we solve our superstar problems anyway, so why hurry?

      for me, the only viable option right now is to trade to trade Amare for whatever it takes and hope Melo fulfills his presumed potential.

    119. Gamecockerbocker

      taggart4800:
      And I don’t think Lin can cure that in one off season. He isn’t just some guy we pulled off the street, he has been playing high level basketball for numerous years without correcting it. It sounds like I don’t like him, but really I do and long term I agree he is the better option.
      If you are going to assemble the team the way they have why not go the whole 8 barrels and try and win the thing in the next 2 years whilst Amare can still walk.

      Because Nash is not going to win this team an NBA title while Melo and Stoudemire and to a lesser degree Tyson Chandler are on the same team. It’s been brought up a couple times, but an underrated reason for Amare’s offensive problems is Tyson. He isn’t doing STAT any favors by being the primary screen setter and clogging the lane on offense. The way he plays defense, though, makes Chandler way more valuable than Amare. There’s too much offensive redundancy on this team and as great as Nash is he won’t be able to turn it into a championship caliber offense.

    120. cgreene

      as i said during the game thread last night. the single most important job for the coach is maximizing the value of his players. with the pre-melo knicks of last year dantoni’s system complemented the talent by maximizing felton and gallo and having stat as the clear primary option. not saying that was a top tier team. it wasn’t and wouldn’t be this year either as was constructed. it is just to say that the system/coaching style maximized the talent level. this year the team has vastly more talent when you include the additions of the past 2 weeks. the bottom line is that the style of play/system/coaching is not maximizing the talent level. maybe it’s the system. maybe it’s the laissez faire coaching style. the appropriate buttons are not being pushed. it seems from the outside that each night the opposing team slightly alters its game plan to exploit its strengths (i.e. take advantage of amare in the pnr, the knicks will switch, create a mismatch and exploit it by either having the guard drive on the big man or throwing it into the post against a small man). these are details. again from the perspective of the experienced observer it seems that the knicks game plan is to run pnr/flex sets and let players make decisions on the fly off those sets rather than specifically setting up a plan to exploit areas where the team has an advantage. that’s dantoni’s philosophy and it’s not going to change and he simply does not have the players to execute it. lin demonstrated some potential to be able to helm that strategy. he’s basically rookie and maybe in the long run he can. the last several games his court vision/decision making out of being double teamed on the pick have demonstrated that he’s not there. think that d would work against nash? never. suns would get a wide open look every time. not blaming lin at all. blaming the dogmatic approach of the coach. it always comes back to riley as the best example. his la style vs ny style…

    121. Gamecockerbocker

      max fisher-cohen:
      The more interesting proposal, I think, would be, say, Deron Williams and MarShon Brooks for Lin and Amaré.

      I would have to make that trade. If Williams wants to resign with us, great. If he doesn’t want to, that move would still be solid, because it would free up so much cap space that we could use to build a team around Melo’s strengths.

    122. Frank

      nicos: There’s no play the Knicks have run more than the high screen & roll with Chandler- they ran with Melo a lot and now they run it constantly with Lin.Most of the time, he’s not open and the Knicks reset and run something else but it takes time off of the clock, it generally sticks either Amar’e or Melo in the corner where they’re useless, etc…His usage sits below 13% and given the amount off energy the Knicks have expended trying to get him the ball that’s not great.

      You hit this right on the head – it’s one of the major problems with the “advanced stats” that are out there now – everything is based around the definition of “possession”, which = shot, foul, TO but gives zero consideration to how you got to that possession. Not saying at all that this is responsible for how Melo is playing – but if you expend 7 seconds getting the ball across half court, then spend 12 seconds trying in vain to run a PNR, then stick Melo with the ball in iso with 5 seconds left and the defense ready, is it really all his fault that he misses the shot? Because no one else is getting that zero PPP on their stat sheet.

      2FOR18:
      I love the idea of Amare playing center on the 2nd unit with Baron, JR, Fields and Jorts.

      On the first unit let Lin and Melo dominate the offense, with Shump and Chandler bracketing the D and Novac providing the spacing.

      I think that would be really good also – it would be a big ego hit to Amare to come off the bench, but if he’s really a leader and doesn’t care about personal stats/accomplishments, then he should do it. Look at Ginobili – dude will probably go to the hall of fame and is about as alpha dog as they come, and he comes off the bench. Manu would be a great selling point for a move like this.

    123. jon abbey

      Frank:

      I think that would be really good also – it would be a big ego hit to Amare to come off the bench, but if he’s really a leader and doesn’t care about personal stats/accomplishments, then he should do it. Look at Ginobili – dude will probably go to the hall of fame and is about as alpha dog as they come, and he comes off the bench.Manu would be a great selling point for a move like this.

      dunno, sixth man/backcourt scorer is a pretty traditional role in the league, and a crucial role for many good teams (Jason Terry last year, Harden this year), but I can’t think of much precedent for big men coming off the bench to play a major scoring role. James Edwards on Isiah’s Pistons?

    124. NY2MIA

      Gamecockerbocker: I would have to make that trade. If Williams wants to resign with us, great. If he doesn’t want to, that move would still be solid, because it would free up so much cap space that we could use to build a team around Melo’s strengths.

      You know you would have to consider this if available. Lin has proven he can play in the NBA but the jury is still out whether he can excel in a conventional set offense or “system” (I think I’m justified in this statement because we simply have not seen it or not large enough sample). Does anyone think D’ Antoni will be resigned next season? Lin is the beneficiary of his offense scheme, so what then? Worthy of reasonable discussion.

    125. Bruno Almeida

      @135

      well, I don’t think Chandler has anything to do it, really… Amare was having a pretty good season (.615 TS%) in 2008/09 before he got injured, and that was with old Shaq as the Center, who was much bigger and less mobile than Chandler… yes, he was a bigger threat to score and had to be doubled a lot, but he also did it 100% of the time inside the paint, and yet Amare was still very, very effective.

      I don’t know, it seems to me the issue is not trying hard enough, and not being smart / versatile enough to adapt to aging and losing much of his athleticism.

    126. PC

      2FOR18: So tired of hearing how our 2 superstars still need time to “gel” and “get reps” and “figure it out” with regards to playing with Lin.Why didn’t Chandler, Fields and Novac need time to figure things out? They won 7 in a freakin row with no practice. I’m tired of hearing about practice. They just had 2 weeks of practices and look worse now than ever.On a side note, I just saw “Eddie” and was cracking up listening to Ivan (“Ivan makes basket), so from now on Amare is “Ivan” to me, and Melo is Stacey Patton.

      They didn’t need time because we played crappy teams, mostly at home, who had no clue how to guard Lin. Now we’re playing real basketball teams.

      Yes, Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, and Jeff Teague couldn’t stop Lin. But now its a different story. Tough schedule.

      As to Lin, I am psyched that he is 23 and I think he is the most untradeable thing in the NBA. He is a stud who never expected major minutes no less a starting job. His off season is going to be (1) outside shooting; (2) going left; (3) handling the trap; and (4) and getting stronger to absorb the beating he takes. When he’s 26 years old, he is going to be unreal. On the other hand, Amare will have a negative vertical by then and Melo will look like Vince Carter did the other night….oh man …. can we give Lin three months to train now????????

    127. daJudge

      THCJ–Re: Chandler. Sure, he’s really great player, but not on offense. He’s not. Instead of defending his offensive stats, perhaps you could figure out why that metric is wrong. I’m certain you could.

    128. Doug

      PC: As to Lin, I am psyched that he is 23 and I think he is the most untradeable thing in the NBA. He is a stud who never expected major minutes no less a starting job. His off season is going to be (1) outside shooting; (2) going left; (3) handling the trap; and (4) and getting stronger to absorb the beating he takes.

      This is a great point and those who crow “OVERRATED” or “SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE” would do well to remember this. Quality young NBA players with a good work ethic can add one skill to their game every offseason, whether it be improved man defense or an outside midrange jumper (David Lee) or consistent range from 3 (Wil-Chan).

    129. Will the Thrill

      By “guys like Chandler” I think he is referring to guys with very low usage (can’t/won’t create their own shot). Say you had a team of:
      1. Mario Chalmers
      2. Thabo Sefolosha
      3. James Jones
      4. Nick Collison
      5. Tyson Chandler

      The numbers obviously say that this would be a very, very good offensive lineup (all in top 20 in TS%), but the numbers don’t tell the whole story here.

      Gamecockerbocker: If you could only build a team made out of guys in the top ten this year in EFG% you’d have a lineup that looked like this.

      1. Steve Nash/
      2. James Harden/Ray Allen
      3. LeBron James/Nicolas Batum
      4. Ryan Anderson/
      5. Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler or Bynum

      With TS%
      1. Nash/Curry/Chalmers
      2. Harden/Allen
      3. Durant
      4. James/Anderson
      5. Chandler

      I know you’re saying if you had a team of low usage, high efficiency guys, that team would suck, but most of the high efficiency guys do handle the ball a good amount and Chandler is the most efficient player in the league.

      It just wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the NBA if either of those two teams existed.

    130. 2FOR18

      jon abbey: dunno, sixth man/backcourt scorer is a pretty traditional role in the league, and a crucial role for many good teams (Jason Terry last year, Harden this year), but I can’t think of much precedent for big men coming off the bench to play a major scoring role. James Edwards on Isiah’s Pistons?

      Kevin McHale!

    131. 2FOR18

      PC: They didn’t need time because we played crappy teams, mostly at home, who had no clue how to guard Lin. Now we’re playing real basketball teams. Yes, Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, and Jeff Teague couldn’t stop Lin. But now its a different story. Tough schedule.As to Lin, I am psyched that he is 23 and I think he is the most untradeable thing in the NBA. He is a stud who never expected major minutes no less a starting job. His off season is going to be (1) outside shooting; (2) going left; (3) handling the trap; and (4) and getting stronger to absorb the beating he takes. When he’s 26 years old, he is going to be unreal. On the other hand, Amare will have a negative vertical by then and Melo will look like Vince Carter did the other night….oh man …. can we give Lin three months to train now????????

      I would think that the league getting to know Lin, along with the favorable schedule, would be more than offset by Lin gaining more experience, the return of the 2 superstars and all this gelling that’s taken place during practice since the All Star break.

    132. hoolahoop

      Gamecockerbocker: If you could only build a team made out of guys in the top ten this year in EFG% you’d have a lineup that looked like this.

      1. Steve Nash/
      2. James Harden/Ray Allen
      3. LeBron James/Nicolas Batum
      4. Ryan Anderson/
      5. Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler or Bynum

      With TS%
      1. Nash/Curry/Chalmers
      2. Harden/Allen
      3. Durant
      4. James/Anderson
      5. Chandler

      I know you’re saying if you had a team of low usage, high efficiency guys, that team would suck, but most of the high efficiency guys do handle the ball a good amount and Chandler is the most efficient player in the league.

      It just wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the NBA if either of those two teams existed.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Those are 60-70 win teams, all of them.

      That’s what people said about the knicks when they got Melo, then TC, then Lin . . . until they saw them play.

    133. nicos

      I know last night’s defense was awful but even after that fiasco the Knicks are still ranked 9th in defensive efficiency and 23rd in offense so I don’t think defense is the main issue right now. I’d agree that it probably best to move Amar’e into a 6th man role as much to get him away from Chandler as Melo. I’d like to see Chandler, Melo, Novak, Smith, and Lin start (though you might have to change it up if rebounding becomes an issue) and Amar’e, Fields, Shump, Davis, and Jorts (provided he can start hittting some threes again- You could also substitute Jeffries for Harrellson depending on matchups). WIth both Novak and Smith spreading the floor with the first unit you’d have plenty of room for both Melo and Lin to handle the ball with Chandler screening for both. The second unit with have Davis with three guys who can all run quick cuts to the basket which I think Davis sees a little better than Lin does- hopefully Jorts cab=n keep the floor spread a little bit and one of the trio of Fields, Amar’e or Davis will start hitting enough jumpers to create a little more space. The main thing is getting Amar’e away from both Chandler and Melo- the only value he has is scoring so let him anchor the second unit and run the offense through him. The guy had a TS of .565 with a usage over 30 and below average turnover numbers last year- that may not be worth 20 million but it ain’t exactly chopped liver either. When his activity level is high, like it’s been the last couple of games and you have even an average point guard like Felton last year, he can still be a very productive offensive player. His defense still sucks but as long as you keep him out of screen and rolls you can live with it- he’s played the third most minutes on the team this year and they’re a top ten defense so obviously you can hide him.

    134. hoolahoop

      Doug: This is a great point and those who crow “OVERRATED” or “SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE” would do well to remember this. Quality young NBA players with a good work ethic can add one skill to their game every offseason, whether it be improved man defense or an outside midrange jumper (David Lee) or consistent range from 3 (Wil-Chan).

      He’s a good kid, smart and dedicated. Hopefully, that will happen.

    135. hoolahoop

      The knicks are the most underachieving team in the NBA. How can the coach not be largely responsible?

    136. Spree8

      Before Linsanity, most of the Knicks fans (including myself) are dependent on Melo to come up big and carry the Knicks to win games. This was before they realize how good the Knicks can be as a “team” without Melo (Novak, JJ, and other pre-Lin scrubs). The truth is, Melo is a better individual player and Lin is a better team player. As the records have shown, Melo scoring 25+ games doesn’t necessary equal wins for the team, but when Knicks play as a “team” we have a winning record. People talk about Lin being exposed and hyped; sadly, the only thing Linsanity has exposed was Melo (as the Knicks savior). And this explains the hate Lin is getting from Knicks (Melo) fans.

      Yes, for the Knicks to become a real contender we need Melo’s scoring, but the Knicks can easily replace him by getting good pieces that will fit with this current team. I hope Melo realizes this and become a “team” player that the Knicks desperately need him to be right now. So far, I am not amused. I’m sorry but losing the ball on inbound while talking to opposing player, laughing and joking when the team is down 15+ pts are not something a “leader” (captain of the team) does. Complaining about reduced role (for the benefit of the team) and demanding more shots? Please, time to grow up Melo and earn your paycheck.

    137. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah Yeah, we’ll see

      Doug: This is a great point and those who crow “OVERRATED” or “SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE” would do well to remember this. Quality young NBA players with a good work ethic can add one skill to their game every offseason, whether it be improved man defense or an outside midrange jumper (David Lee) or consistent range from 3 (Wil-Chan).

    138. ruruland

      nicos:
      I know last night’s defense was awful but even after that fiasco the Knicks are still ranked 9th in defensive efficiency and 23rd in offense so I don’t think defense is the main issue right now.

      The Spurs last year were 57-13 at one point, far and away the most efficient offense in the NBA until the final 12 games. (they started to rest regulars)

      We’re talking about a team that’s 51-9 in the last two years at home.

      That’s Bird/Boston Garden, Magic/Forum, MJ/United Center etc. level dominance.

      Who have they lost to in that time span?

      Sacramento, game in which only one Spur played more than 30 minutes (typical Pop head game) sans Ginobli, shooting 5-25 from 3, a 2 point loss nonetheless.
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201201200SAS.html

      Chicago
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201202290SAS.html

      Denver
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201203040SAS.html

      Dallas
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201011260SAS.html

      Lakers
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103060SAS.html

      Portland (minus Duncan, Ginobli and Parker)
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103280SAS.html

      Boston
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103310SAS.html

      That’s it.

      When this team is healthy, played a few consecutive games together (Spurs win % is lowest at beginning of year historically), they are as good or better than any team in the league in a regular season format game.

    139. ruruland

      Only the Bulls have beaten San Antonio at home, with at least one of its big three, on a b2b the last two years.

      It’s a scheduled loss.

      So, we have most of this board talking about the Knicks as a top 4 team in the east before the road trip, and an overtime loss against the Celtics and one to the Mavericks as sufficient evidence that they’re basically a .500 team.

      That’s how crazy this media/fan market is.

    140. Brian Cronin

      How can Josh Smith even ask for a trade with a straight face? He’s signed through next season and he’s, you know, Josh Smith. This isn’t Chris Paul in the last year of his contract here.

    141. Doug

      ruruland:
      Only the Bulls have beaten San Antonio at home, with at least one of its big three, on a b2b the last two years.

      It’s a scheduled loss.

      So, we have most of this board talking about the Knicks as a top 4 team in the east before the road trip, and an overtime loss against the Celtics and one to the Mavericks as sufficient evidence that they’re basically a .500 team.

      That’s how crazy this media/fan market is.

      Spare me your “evidence” and “historical context.” You’re spoiling my precious narrative that everything about the Knicks sucks and is terrible and is doomed to failure. How am I supposed to wallow in my own misery with facts like that around?

    142. Z

      johnlocke: I like ruruland’s posts and his positive outlook is a nice counterbalance to the typical Knicks fan (myself included) who has been going through misery for the last decade or so.

      I agree, too.

      (but I do wish he would pepper a little humor into his posts– maybe be a little self-effacing, or throw in a man-crush reference here and there. Maybe plan a gay wedding like Owen and DLee once did… As it is, the Melo love is a little dry. Like a single-issue Ted Nelson.)

    143. Juany8

      Although I’ve been one of the Melo backers/apologists, I wasn’t quite as optimistic as ruruland about this team, partly because I seem to have correctly assessed that Jeremy Lin isn’t even a top 15 pg at this point, much less the star everyone jumped on after about 10 games against terrible opposition. I still think this is a dangerous playoff team, one thing the Melo, Amar’e, and Baron detractors haven’t really considered that those 3 players don’t have to start playing at a Lebron level, even getting back to their career/last year numbers would provide a significant benefit to this team. Obviously, some of the better offenses in the NBA have had Amar’e and Melo as their primary usage players in the past few years, they might not be “superstars” but they have never detracted from an offense before.

      Also the San Antonio loss was on the second night of a back to back, in Texas, without Tyson Chandler, who has clearly been our best player this season. If it weren’t for the stupid Paul Pierce 3 (as well as a million other things in that game) this team would be .500 after the all star break with perfectly understandable losses.

    144. Doug

      Z: I agree, too.

      (but I do wish he would pepper a little humor into his posts– maybe be a little self-effacing, or throw in a man-crush reference here and there. Maybe plan a gay wedding like Owen and DLee once did… As it is, the Melo love is a little dry. Like a single-issue Ted Nelson.)

      I think everyone would do well to approach things from a more irreverent standpoint. The Melo hate is a little dry, too.

    145. Brian Cronin

      Although I’ve been one of the Melo backers/apologists, I wasn’t quite as optimistic as ruruland about this team, partly because I seem to have correctly assessed that Jeremy Lin isn’t even a top 15 pg at this point, much less the star everyone jumped on after about 10 games against terrible opposition.

      He played the same exact way against the Lakers and the Mavericks as he did against the shitty opponents. We just saw last year Amar’e struggle when he was no longer the number one usage guy and now Lin does the same thing. So what evidence is there that the Lin who struggles with two other high usage guys playing with him is the “real” Lin and not the Lin that played well as the number one usage guy? I’m not saying this isn’t the real Lin, but I don’t think we can say it with any accuracy at this point.

      I still think this is a dangerous playoff team, one thing the Melo, Amar’e, and Baron detractors haven’t really considered that those 3 players don’t have to start playing at a Lebron level, even getting back to their career/last year numbers would provide a significant benefit to this team.

      While true, what have you seen that shows that they will do that? Has Amar’e really shown any indication of playing like he did pre-Melo (which was, in and of itself, a huge step down from his best seasons). For a rough estimation, I took a look at STAT’s Game Scores. They’re certainly not a precise measurement, but they’re a pretty good indication of how good a game a player is having and I think 25 is a safe estimate of a “great” game. Last season, STAT topped 25 13 times pre-Melo (with a few 30 plus games, including his classic 38 GS against Philly) and just twice since (oddly enough, one of their very first games together against Cleveland and then the Chicago game this year – of course, the 22 GS he put up in Game 1 against Boston should count, too, as it was such a big game). And in Davis’ case, can we really expect anything specific from him? He’s recovering from a serious injury. It could be like when the Knicks were waiting for Antonio McDyess to return to his pre-injury ways.

      Obviously, some of the better offenses in the NBA have had Amar’e and Melo as their primary usage players in the past few years, they might not be “superstars” but they have never detracted from an offense before.

      The key phrase there is “primary usage players.” As seen so far, taking three guys who all work best when they’re the primary usage player on the team and forcing them to play together (as ego and money dictates that you cannot move either Melo or Amar’e to the second unit) does not seem to be the best idea.

      And I don’t think specific results are as important as how the team has played. A loss like the one against Chicago, for instance, is more impressive than a win like the one in Toronto. To wit, let’s say they pull the Mavericks game out, would that really say anything about how poorly Melo/STAT/Lin played together in that game?

      Meanwhile, the Knicks’ best player is currently missing games from one ailment while also playing hurt (which is clearly affecting his game) from an entirely separate ailment!! So that does not bode well for the team either.

      I’d certainly love to see it all “click” and the Knicks turn into the high-octane offense they looked like they could be in the Cleveland game, but the Lin/STAT/Melo “I work best when I’m the primary option.” “Me, too!” “Me, three!” trio sure looks iffy. Hopefully things look different against Milwaukee. They still have enough talent that even with that threesome not clicking they can beat average-to-good teams, so the playoffs are basically a lock, which is good at least.

    146. Brian Cronin

      A quick aside as I’ve reminded myself of it. As bad as the Curry deal was (and it was baaaaaad), how in the world do you trade Marcus Camby and the #8 pick in the draft for an injured player!?!?!

    147. Brian Cronin

      Actually, it is a weird case where they were not as hurt as they could be because of their own stupidity. To wit, while yes, it was an awful trade, the Knicks seemed committed to using that pick not on Nene nor on the fellow who was picked next (Amar’e) but on Chris freakin’ Wilcox. Or, in other words, the Knicks were so poorly managed for years that they’d probably have been screwed no matter what. If they hadn’t traded Camby for McDyess they’d probably have dealt him for a bag of magic beans or something like that.

    148. iserp

      nicos: You might want to check some stats yourself before jumping on people- Chandler’s currently fifth in the league in ppp. He’s not even the best on the Knicks- that would Steve Novak (who does lead the league). I’m not saying he’s not valuable- obviously he is- but usage really is an issue. There’s no play the Knicks have run more than the high screen & roll with Chandler- they ran with Melo a lot and now they run it constantly with Lin. Most of the time, he’s not open and the Knicks reset and run something else but it takes time off of the clock, it generally sticks either Amar’e or Melo in the corner where they’re useless, etc… Also, it may be just my eyes telling me this but it seems that a good number of turnovers by our guards have been trying to force the ball into Chandler (and Chandler’s turnover rate is a little high himself which is what hurts his ppp). Is it still the best play the Knicks could run? Probably- especially with Lin because he’s gotten a lot of good looks out of it as well. But as good as he’s been, I don’t think his year has been one of the all-time great offensive years as you make it out to be. His usage sits below 13% and given the amount off energy the Knicks have expended trying to get him the ball that’s not great.

      I am amazed how THCJ always chooses to ignore well reasoned answers (like this one), but decides to attack relentlessly simple comments about the game.

    149. Frank

      iserp: I am amazed how THCJ always chooses to ignore well reasoned answers (like this one), but decides to attack relentlessly simple comments about the game.

      LOL – bullies don’t like to be bullied back.

      @163 – I had already blocked out the Nene trade from my brain. Thank you for making me relive that.

      @Spree – I’ve been a Melo apologist for the most part, so maybe this isn’t surprising, but I think he really has made an effort this year to change his game. The results haven’t been pretty, which may be a telling sign – but he DID try to be a playmaker-type for the pre-Lin era, and it does feel like he has tried to defer a little since he’s been back.

      @Nicos – I like the Lin/JR/Novak/Melo/TC starting lineup. It might not be our best defensive lineup but it might just be our best offensive lineup, with TC holding the ship together at the rim. BD/Shump/Fields/JJ/Amare is not bad either, although there is zero shooting on that team –

      I wrote it above and I’ll do it again – what’s going on now is not working very well, and so if either Amare or Melo have to go to the bench, they need to man up and try something that might be better for the team. If they drop the next two (which will result in us being in a dogfight with MIL for the #8 seed after having lost both games to them) then I think it’s really time to shake up the rotations. We need patience but time is starting to run short.

    150. BKQuick1

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Are you telling me that the person who could set a league record in shooting efficiency is a poor scorer?And just because he can’t shoot beyond 5 feet from the basket does NOT mean that he’s a poor scorer. Lots of centers have no jump shot, but none of them have Chandler’s ridiculous efficiency. Chandler, despite a “limited” offensive skillset, is by far the best player in the league when it comes to converting into points the possessions he uses to score. His value as an offensive player is through the freaking roof, man. So he can’t do the Dream Shake. So what?You’re new here, right? Read the Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics before you jump into the discussion.

      Thanks for the warm welcome dickhead. Being new here doesn’t make me new to the game of basketball. I don’t know what I would think of Chandler at 7’1″ in height if he could not “efficiently” convert lobs and dunks! I do give him credit for not bringing the ball down below his waist and thereby giving smaller defenders the opportunity to swat away his layup attempts. He is however seriously limited in his ability to creat his own offense. It’s just that simple and I don’t need your little manual to know that. If in your analysis a guy who can convert his dizzying array of dunks and layups from 2 ft away from the basket is a great offensive player, good for you!

      A more viable point would be that is doesn’t even matter given the high number of scorers already on the roster. I’d say the answer is no. God forbid we had yet another offensive minded player amongst the starting five. My original post wasn’t a knock on Chandler for being a poor offensive player, it was just a quick summation of the players strengths and weaknesses as I see them. YMMV

    151. max fisher-cohen

      @BKQuick, there are many players who could not convert that play. It’s the same argument that used to be lobbied against Shaq: He just dunks the ball. Anyone can dunk the ball. Chandler is a very valuable offensive piece because of his size and quickness. These allow him to roll to the rim past many other players and to catch and finish passes that almost no other player in the league can.

      Is he a guy who can carry a team’s offense? No. Is he as valuable on offense as a guy like Steve Nash, who can make baskets from anywhere on the floor? No. But if you consider the fact that most centers in the league are low usage and can’t shoot, Chandler’s ability to make the most of his shots makes him a valuable center on offense.

    152. Nick C.

      The problem with the shot creation is the be all and end all is that you wind up with the notion that Jamal Crawford is valuable (he’s useful as 6-7th man instant offense but that’s another topic) becuas ehe has this great handle yadayadayada. For me we’ve seen firsthand what overreliance on “athletic” can get his shot off types briungs you its the Isaiah Knicks.

      I will admit when I first came here I was bothered by the phrase great offensive player when it was applied to David Lee and his high EFG% but then mostly around the basket game. So I would post lists of the top EF% TSP guys and make snarky comments about Mark West or whatever other players were on the list. Since then I have figured it is semantics and much as he is endearing now watching Jared Jefferies around the backet and then Tyson makes you appreciate the difference.
      I still think there would be some merit in comparing shots from different areas to a league wide average but I have rambled on long enough.

    153. BKQuick1

      Hey Guys,

      I really hope that you are not framing your responses to my post based on Cock’s response. Because I am NOT making the argument that Chandler is not a valuable member of the Knicks. He most certainly is. I simply made the obversation that in my opinion he is a poor offensive player. In my estimation, if you can’t create your shot off the dribble, spotting up or in a post situation, you aren’t a good OFFENSIVE player. Obviously this doesn’t mean you can’t be a great BASKETBALL player. Ben Wallace wasn’t doing much scoring when he was dominating the league defensively.

      Anyway, I thought it interesting that Max mentioned Shaq. I think even the rookie version of Shaq displayed greater post skills that Chandler. Certainly within a couple of years, Shaq was displaying footwork, quickness and power that enabled him to manuever closer to the basket in post up scenarios and finish with a dunk. Something I very rarely see Chandler doing. You also wrote that he is able to “catch and finish passes that almost no other player in the league can”. Really? In today’s NBA? I would wager good money that there are FAR more players that can, than those that can’t.

      Again, I’m not making an argument that a guy like Nate was more valuable to the Knicks than Chandler because he can create his own offense. I was merely stating what I thought was an obvious shortcoming in Chandlers game. Like saying that Stat is a poor help defender…

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