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Monday, November 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Dec 29 2011)

  • [New York Newsday] Lethargic Knicks beaten by Warriors (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:12:00 EST)
    Before the game, Warriors coach Mark Jackson displayed his New York resolve by saying, "We are a no excuse basketball team." He was referring to the fact that his star guard Stephen Curry was out with an ankle injury. By the end of the night, though, the shoe was on the other foot. There was no excuse for the way the Knicks played.

  • [New York Daily News] Jax 1-ups Knicks (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:25:42 GMT)
    As much as Mark Jackson tried to downplay his first game against the Knicks as an NBA head coach, he didn’t sound very convincing when he said he was treating it as just another game.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo: PaulALL should be with Kobe  (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:24:26 GMT)
    When it came to barring point guard Chris Paul from joining the Los Angeles Lakers, David Stern had it all wrong, says Knicks All-Star forward Carmelo Anthony.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Rapid Reaction: Warriors 92, Knicks 78 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:06:07 EDT)
    WHAT IT MEANS: So this is what happens when Carmelo Anthony can’t find his shot and Tyson Chandler can’t control the paint.
    With Anthony having an off night and Chandler off the floor for long stretches, the New York Knicks lost, 92-78, to Mark Jackson’s Golden State Warriors.
    They missed an opportunity to start the season 2-0 for the first time since 1999. And missed badly.
    THE GOOD: Not much to report here. Landry Fields had a strong first half offensively but was silenced in the second half.

  • [New York Times] Warriors 92, Knicks 78: Warriors Use Second-Half Run to Beat the Knicks (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:00:20 GMT)
    The Knicks, who were outscored 28-14 in the fourth quarter when they made just 5 of 19 shots, opened their West Coast trip with a lopsided defeat to the Warriors.

  • [New York Times] Jeremy Lin, Knicks Newest Addition, Is Out to Prove He’s Not Just a Novelty (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:27:18 GMT)
    In his 18 months in the N.B.A., Jeremy Lin has been an unheralded prospect, a hometown sensation and a scrutinized ethnic symbol. Now he wants to show he can be a valuable player.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Heat Top Bobcats in Final Seconds to Remain Undefeated (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:30:08 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade hit a bank shot over Gerald Henderson with 2.9 seconds left to lift Miami to a 96-95 victory over Charlotte to improve to 3-0.

  • [New York Times] Hawks 106, Nets 70: Nets and Crowd Silenced in Home Opener (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:51:27 GMT)
    A sellout crowd was quickly quieted by a dominant Atlanta Hawks team that romped from start to finish, with the Nets struggling mightily out of the gate for the second straight night.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Dampen Clippers Buzz With Big Win (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:18:44 GMT)
    San Antonio squashed some of the hype surrounding the revamped Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday with a 115-90 victory that lifted the Spurs to 2-0 in the new season.

  • [New York Times] 76ers Surge Past Suns 103-83 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 05:24:33 GMT)
    Andre Iguodala scored 15 points to lead six players in double figures and added six assists and the Philadelphia 76ers routed the Phoenix Suns 103-83 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Nene Scores 25 as Nuggets Rout Jazz, 117-100 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:00:33 GMT)
    The Denver Nuggets’ fast-paced style is making everything look easy.

  • [New York Times] 76ers Surge Past Suns 103-83 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:45:33 GMT)
    Andre Igoudala scored 15 points to lead six players in double figures and added six assists and the Philadelphia 76ers routed the Phoenix Suns 103-83 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Quiet Clippers Buzz With Big Win (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:30:30 GMT)
    San Antonio squashed some of the hype surrounding the revamped Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday with a 115-90 victory that lifted the Spurs to 2-0 in the new season.

  • [New York Times] Ginobili Scores 24 as Spurs Top Clippers 115-90 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:33:44 GMT)
    Manu Ginobili scored 24 points and DeJuan Blair added 20 to lead the San Antonio Spurs to a 115-90 win over the Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Hornets Drop Celtics to 0-3 With 97-78 Victory (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:07:15 GMT)
    Jarrett Jack’s first regular-season start since the Chris Paul trade was more than good enough for the New Orleans Hornets.

  • [New York Times] Scrappy Spirit Not Enough to Earn Raptors Win (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:18:31 GMT)
    The Toronto Raptors delivered every ounce of effort they promised fans before their NBA home opener against Indiana on Wednesday but it would not be enough to secure the victory as the Pacers ran out 90-85 winners.

  • [New York Times] Wade’s Winning Shot Lifts Heat Over Bobcats 96-95 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:54:38 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade hit a bank shot over Gerald Henderson with 2.9 seconds left to lift the Miami Heat to a 96-95 victory over the pesky Charlotte Bobcats on Wednesday and remain unbeaten.

  • [New York Post] Knicks hoping Lin can help their banged-up backcourt (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:08:07 -0500)
    OAKLAND, Calif. â?? Jeremy Lin can identify with some Knicks fans. His favorite player growing up was Latrell Sprewell, who began his career with the Warriors.
    “Best player on the hometown team,” said Lin, who grew up in Palo Alto, Calif., as a Warriors fan.
    In his first full day as…

  • [New York Post] Warriors rally to beat Knicks, 92-78 (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:39:05 -0500)
    OAKLAND, Calif. â?? Monta Ellis shook off a terrible first half to finish with 22 points and eight assists, Brandon Rush added 19 points off the bench and the Golden State Warriors beat the New York Knicks 92-78 on Wednesday night.
    Playing without injured guard Stephen Curry, the Warriors led by…

  • [New York Post] Knicks fall to Warriors after being outscored 28-14 in putrid last quarter (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:12:02 -0500)
    OAKLAND, Calif. â?? Tyson Chandler couldn’t stay on the floor, Amar’e Stoudemire couldn’t shoot straight and Carmelo Anthony couldn’t find any of his Christmas mojo.
    “The Broadway Bigs” were a major flop last night as their West Coast debut was a disaster, doomed by Chandler’s start-to-finish…

  • [New York Post] Lee: Davis’ return to health is key for N.Y. (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:22:38 -0500)
    OAKLAND, Calif. â?? David Lee, ingrained as a Warrior, believes the Knicks’ fortunes this season could rise and fall with former Golden State point guard Baron Davis.
    Lee, who had 13 points and five rebounds to help lead the Warriors to a 92-78 victory over the Knicks last night at Oracle…

  • [New York Post] D’Antoni’s machine still needs tinkering (Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:46:41 -0500)
    OAKLAND, Calif â?? The signs were there on Christmas Day, of course, bright warning flares that filled Madison Square Garden every bit as much as did the hopeful holiday din.
    The Knicks are a team of fragments right now, three foundation players and a gaggle of roster guys who either aren…

  • 109 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Dec 29 2011)

    1. Z-man

      I am giving the Knicks a complete pass on last night’s game. In addition to all the lock-out related stuff and injuries, they have been practicing and playing in midday, then find themselves playing at 1:00 AM across the country. Aside from Bill Walker, they looked asleep out there. You could see it in the shooting, the FT shooting, the passing (Fields, yikes!) the defensive rotations, the foul trouble…

      It is also important to remember that this is not an established team yet. Last year we looked terrible the first 10 games and then went on a roll. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens again this year.

      That said, TD is not looking like a PG at all, much less a starter.

    2. DRed

      I missed most of the game last night. How did Chandler manage to only pull down 3 rebounds? Getting outrebounded 31-47 is a pretty good formula for losing basketball games.

    3. Gamecockerbocker

      The more games like this with horrifying pg play, the more worried I get that Arenas will be walking through that door.

    4. Z-man

      I know it was only a glimpse, but Jerome Jordan looked better than I expected. Kept his feet, went straight up, good form on his shot. Hope we see more of him (just not on the losing end of blowouts!)

    5. Frank O.

      If a cross country flight is an issue, then we’re in trouble for this season. They will be in planes more than the gym.
      What I found a little disconcerting is Chandler. Aside from foul trouble, he seemed genuinely frustrated, and it wasn’t GSW. I saw him gesturing at least six different occasions, first for the ball in the paint and then after when he was angry his teammates failed to get him an open shot.
      He’s also having to cover the mistakes in coverage by the guards – and Melo – which is forcing him to do too much. GSW has quick, strong guards, and they played well. Even with Curry out, the Knicks don’t match up well.
      It’s my theory, but Chandler seems frustrated. If he’s having to confront penetrating guards, he can’t clean the glass. He ran the floor well at the start on fast breaks and no one rewarded his hustle. TD, and the rest played a lot of one on one. Big men get lost in that. Amare also was disconcerting. What is with feeding the strongest finisher in the sport 20 feet from the basket. He’s very quick, but his ball-handling is suspect.
      Where is the coach? Reward chandler, get Amare the ball in the paint, run a pick and role every period or two and play conservative D on the perimeter.
      But these are all new team problems. I have a feeling it will get worse before it gets better

    6. Garson

      2 thoughts –

      1. if douglass is not defending and not facilitating like a pg should, wouldnt it be better for the team to start bibby and bring douglass of the bench to do what he does best? Bibby can hit the open shot (i think) and actually dribbles with his head up.

      2. How much is Amare missing the Felton Fields Gallo Mozgov with Chandler Douglass off the bench days… it just seemed more fun back then.

    7. Thomas B.

      DRed:

      I missed most of the game last night. How did Chandler manage to only pull down 3 rebounds? Getting outrebounded 31-47 is a pretty good formula for losing basketball games.

      Agreed. I’m not sure what this is about, but the rebounding needs to improve. We’ve called Amare a poor rebounder all last year, but Chandler’s two game total (6) makes Amare look like Charles Oakley.

    8. Jafa

      Regarding Chandler,

      He was in foul trouble most of the game, as evidenced by his 22 minutes played. Also, while he was sitting, Amare was playing the center position, and got a lot of rebounds because GS shot terribly through 3 quarters and also had a small lineup. Plus, David Lee had a terrible game as well, and Amare actually stole a rebound from his hands (yes, he was that bad).

      Regarding TD,

      I hope and pray we bench him. He was horrible, even for a back-up. Bibby wasn’t spectacular but he didn’t make the dumb mistakes that TD and Fields were making. Fields made up for it by being an efficient scorer, but TD brought absolutely nothing to the table.

      I hope we start Bibby – I mean how bad can it be. He will be going up against Fisher so we are not in danger of him getting burned by a quick young PG, and if we bring Lin in as his backup, maybe the kid can burn Steve Blake for some points. Also, there was one good pass that led to an open layup all game by a PG and it belonged to Bibby (I think he passed between 2 defenders into Balkman who finished easily).

    9. bobneptune

      Thomas B.: Agreed. I’m not sure what this is about, but the rebounding needs to improve.We’ve called Amare a poor rebounder all last year, but Chandler’s two game total (6) makes Amare look like Charles Oakley.

      first of all chandler is going to have a tough time getting rebounds when he is chasing all world penetrators like ish smith’s forays into the paint every single trip down the floor.

      count how many times ish smith broke down the defense in the first half and monta ellis did in the second half.

      hint: ellis had 6 assists (3 for layup/dunks, one for a 9 footer and 2 for long jumpers) in the last quarter alone for christ’s sakes!

    10. bobneptune

      Gamecockerbocker:
      @Z-man, regarding Jordan: I agree… I was surprised by him last night.

      he actually played pretty well in the adriatic league for a year and a quarter and was enormously efficient when he learned how to stay out of foul trouble.

    11. yoda4554

      Well, let’s all just remember that the Knicks started out very badly last season for the first 10 games or so before figuring out how to use their personnel and winning 13 out of 14. Grand pronouncements about the fate of the team at this point are pretty silly.

      By the way, just to remind everyone–the difference between Baron Davis (slash Mike Bibby) and Toney Douglas is that while we know that Davis/Bibby is at this point a bad starting point guard, there is a bit of a chance Toney Douglas is going to figure out how to be something other than that if given the opportunity, which means there’s going to be some nasty early-season growing pains. I though the point of Melo as point-forward was to relieve the pressure on TD to do that on offense–why wasn’t that happening much this past game?

    12. Garson

      Also… What ever happened to that play last season where Amare curls to the foul line off a pick , get the ball off a pass and drains the shot. It worked everytime!

    13. Gamecockerbocker

      Davis is a way better option as a starting point guard when healthy…. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    14. greatscott

      Dlee042David Lee
      Tough offensive night for a bunch of us… DOESNT MATTER!!! Great job with the team defense and another win for the Warriors! #phillysnext
      http://twitter.com/dlee042

      David Lee speaks the truth. Their team focus is to play defense and this was the key to the win agains the Knicks without Curry and the win against the Bulls. Blake Griffin was held to 14 pts, Boozer was held to 14 pts, Amare was held to 16pts. Good for Lee as he got out of NY and onto a no excuse basketball team. Mike Dantoni and NY is still the same old excuse basketball team. This time they don’t have Lee and Robinson to use as an excuse.

      Mark Jackson on last night’s game:
      “This is going to be strange to hear, but we are a defensive team. It’s a shocker. Great players are going to come in against us whether it’s home or away and they are going to have great nights. It’s our job to make it tough and not hold our heads down. Follow the game plan, understand what we are willing to give up and if a guy scores 40 it’s going to be 40 on our terms as opposed to on his terms. Ultimately, we did a great job paying attention to the game plan and the strategy. If a guy heats up it’s up to me and the coaching staff to make the adjustments. Our guys did a great job of competing. For the first time, since I can remember, the defense has given a chance to win a ball game. The way we defended in the first half put us into position to win the game in the second half.”
      http://www.nba.com/warriors/news/recap_122811.html

    15. jon abbey

      Frank O.:
      If a cross country flight is an issue, then we’re in trouble for this season.

      I get your point, but this is actually NY’s only West Coast trip all season, they don’t go farther than Texas after this.

      and Baron Davis needs more respect, I can’t wait until he starts proving the doubters wrong. do people not see him on the sidelines? he’s more into the game than D’Antoni.

    16. greatscott

      bobneptune:
      david lee says out loud what everyone but the td fanbois knowwhat the truth about the knicks season is:

      http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/lee_davis_return_to_health_is_key_Lik5S1iznov67hhVXhqhlI

      Same old Knicks. Ownership/coaching staff think they throw a couple of stars together, not focus on team defense, and make it work. It will never work unless they have a complete team which means a PG, the best COMPLIMENTARY players, and focus on team defense which D’Antoni never will.

    17. massive

      It really sucks to see the guys stop trying on defense when Tyson Chandler is out of the game. I think having Jeffries and Shumpert out also greatly affected the team defense last night. But the one thing on offense that we need is a guard that can break down a defense with dribble-drive penetration. Without that (Shumpert was that guy), the defense won’t collapse off our shooters. The offense did look terrible yesterday, but hopefully that’s because Golden State really is a good defensive team.

    18. Z-man

      Frank O.: If a cross country flight is an issue, then we’re in trouble for this season. They will be in planes more than the gym.

      It’s not the flight, it’s the time difference. The Knicks have played and practiced in late morning and early afternoon in NY for the past 3 weeks. Now they make a trip to California and play basically in the middle of the night. Not to say they would have won, but they missed many open shots and free throws and were a step behind in every facet of the game. Granted, they looked equally pitiful in the 3rd quarter vs. the Celts, but they played terribly the entire game vs. GS and were only in the game because Monta Ellis was in a deep funk. I will be interested to see how they do on the rest of this trip.

    19. hoolahoop

      If Melo really wants to win, and not just score, he needs to believe in his teammates. He needs to make them better by getting them the ball in easy scoring positions . . and that will help his teammates make him better.
      Ball movement. Players in motion. Defense. Loose balls. Rebounds.
      If this is going to be a “stand around and watch Melo shoot” offense, it’s going to be another heartbreaking season.
      I loved Mark Jackson’s comment after the game. He called his team a “No excuse” team.

    20. Z-man

      massive: It really sucks to see the guys stop trying on defense when Tyson Chandler is out of the game. I think having Jeffries and Shumpert out also greatly affected the team defense last night. But the one thing on offense that we need is a guard that can break down a defense with dribble-drive penetration. Without that (Shumpert was that guy), the defense won’t collapse off our shooters. The offense did look terrible yesterday, but hopefully that’s because Golden State really is a good defensive team.

      Wow, are you suggesting that they were better defensively when Chandler was in the game? I thought he stunk up the joint last night.

    21. ess-dog

      Jeez, did D’Antoni get outcoached by Mark “man-down” Jackson?

      Lots of good posts here. I agree that while TD is clearly a bad pg, Melo should’ve done a better job distributing. I mean, if the game plan is to dribble to the arc and hand off to Melo, then TD was kind of doing his job. Where was the Melo/Stat p’n’r?

      I also agree that Jeffrightened and Shump would’ve helped tremendously in that last quarter. I truly believe that once our top 9 are Barron, Fields, Melo, Stat, Chandler, Shumpert, TD, Jeffries, Balkman/Walker, we will be a real top 6 nba team.

      I think for now, maybe Bibby should start and Lin can take Bibby’s minutes. Then TD can split time with Fields. When Shump gets back, Lin drops out and TD splits with Bibby and Shump with Fields. When Barron gets back, Bibby sits.

      I’m not a Bibby fan by any means, but he was passable for the Heat last year during the regular season and I just can’t stand watching TD on the ball any more. Of course, if Melo can actually distribute, then maybe TD can stay but I’m guessing they will scrap the “Melo as point-forward era” in about 10 games.

    22. DS

      It’s just one game reminds me of ’93 when Mark Jackson, Kiki, and the Clippers came back to the Garden and downed the Knicks… I REALLY wish we could flip ‘Melo for Howard or DWill. The offense was terrible except off of fast breaks.

    23. Frank

      Can’t believe I stayed up until 1 watching that horrible game last night.
      When Jerome Jordan and his 3 minutes played were the highlight, you know you have a problem (he did look good though!).

      Agree with all that’s being said about TD. Clyde was so right on the multiple occasions he criticized TD for throwing passes to guys in places where they had little chance for success.

      Melo, surprisingly, was really shut down by Dominic McGuire. Where the hell did this guy come from?

      Amare in 1-on-1 iso mode is just terrible. He basically killed the knicks on what seemed like 4 or 5 possessions in a row where he either threw up a prayer or turned it over. I love Amare but when Melo is out of the game and he is the primary offensive focus, he needs the ball on the move – once he has the defender at even a slight disadvantage, he’s unstoppable, but going 1-on-2 or 3 happens way to much when it’s a pure iso.

      Agree with Frank O. on the time difference. It actually occurred to me the other day whether the team would have been better off flying to the west coast right after the boston game — whenever I go coast to coast it takes me 2+ days to adjust.

      Last thing about Fields – he is just KILLING us with his passing. Sure he scored efficiently, but seems like every pass he makes equals a breakaway layup.

    24. DS

      I was also wondering last night why Golden State is not in the conversation for Howard. Otis Smith seems like he’d prob. bite on a package of Biedriens, DLee, and Monta, maybe 2 draft picks for Dwight, Hedo, and Du-Du.

    25. Gamecockerbocker

      DS:
      It’s just one game reminds me of ’93 when Mark Jackson, Kiki, and the Clippers came back to the Garden and downed the Knicks… I REALLY wish we could flip ‘Melo for Howard or DWill.The offense was terrible except off of fast breaks.
      I think that has a lot to do with coaching an not having a pg. our offense the past 2 games really looked like it wa all iso stuff for melo and stat. Coach D needs to run some plays and he really can’t with TD running the point.

    26. chrisk06811

      Jafa: I just feel like it would be easier to blame every loss this year on the loss of Mosgov, instead of picking everything else apart.

      One thing to point out…..is it just me, or has the trend the last 2 years been to struggle vs. the teams we should beat then rise up against the teams that we should struggle against?

    27. danvt

      @17 It’s good to know that your Warriors won’t make excuses when they don’t make the playoffs this year.

      @everyone else
      Toney is gonna be fine. I think he’ll start all year and figure it out. Last night was ugly, but they played a good first half, holding the Warriors to 37 points. Then they scored only 37 in the second half. I’m not saying TD is all world but I’m sick of the hate. No one played well in the second half. If Amar’e and Melo make half of their shots we win. If Chandle plays more than 22 minutes we would have done better. The starting guards didn’t pick up the slack and the bench is short because of injuries. One freakin’ game. I’m just sick of the “TD is not a PG” posts. We give our whole cap to three players and then everybody blames an overachieving 30th pick in the draft for every bad possession.

    28. gbaked

      Garson: 2. How much is Amare missing the Felton Fields Gallo Mozgov with Chandler Douglass off the bench days… it just seemed more fun back then.

      Its games like last night, where I worry if we are getting the down side of Karma for selling our soul like we did.

    29. D.

      You guys all make good points and mostly like reading the regulars. For one I live in LA and i was hoping to see my knicks dominate the Lakers, i got my tickets and my Knick fan gear all ready to go for tonight but after last nights game, i feel robbed already. I do agree about the west coast lag thing tho. Plus i kept on waiting for Mel to go off but that didnt happen either. But you can make all the angry rants you want and flip Mel for Howard or stat or whatever…its just one game. To be honest im glad they lost, they didn’t deserve to win this game, and I hope they learn that effort is half the battle and if they bring it then we can be successful. I hope they don’t get embarrassed by Kobe tonight tho… we need to play angry after last night. And please stop bashing Chandler he’s the only one who seemed to care last night and that’s worth 14mil to me.

    30. danvt

      I do think Landry has to play with more aggression. He can’t be just a blend in player this year. He’s got make the defense react more. We got to keep one player in the Melo deal last year and we chose him.

      R. Silverman. Great watching the game with you last night! We talked about how we kept Fields and traded Gallo. Landry needs to justify that. I think he can.

      If we keep playing poorly coach D is gonna start to sweat.

    31. Jafa

      D.,

      Wear your Knicks gear and go to the game. I don’t think Amare and Melo will have back-to-back bad games like the did last night. Melo will come to play against Kobe and Amare and Chandler should bounce back nicely (especially Chandler, as he got all that rest sitting on the bench last night).

      And I have zero faith in the Lakers, who beat up a Jazz team that is both very young and without an offensive identity since they traded D-Will. I’m not saying we are going to win this game, but just saying it will be very competitive and we have a chance to win it.

    32. Jafa

      chrisk06811:

      One thing to point out…..is it just me, or has the trend the last 2 years been to struggle vs. the teams we should beat then rise up against the teams that we should struggle against?

      I couldn’t agree more, although I absolutely hate it.

    33. Gamecockerbocker

      <blockquote cite="comment-351885"
      I’m just sick of the “TD is not a PG” posts.We give our whole cap to three players and then everybody blames an overachieving 30th pick in the draft for every bad possession.

      But he isn’t a point guard. He’s a shooting guard playing point guard.

    34. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      “lol”

      Are you LOLing at Melo’s and Amare’s terrible games?

      Or at Landry Fields having more turnovers (6) than rebounds (4) this year?

      Or at David Lee getting a healthy 5 rebounds and 4 TOs in 39 minutes last night?

    35. Ben R

      danvt: I’m just sick of the “TD is not a PG” posts. We give our whole cap to three players and then everybody blames an overachieving 30th pick in the draft for every bad possession.

      Thank you, this is exactly right. Whether or not TD is bad is not an excuse for Amare’s and Melo’s putrid play last night. If they are both worth max contracts and are all-world players shouldn’t they be able to play with a less than optimal PG. Kobe and Gasol won multiple championships with Fisher, Jordan won with Kerr and Paxton. If they cannot function without an above-average PG then they are not worth 15+million a year.

    36. Unreason

      Abysmal. But only one game. For the first 12 or so, I’m watching how quickly they learn to capitalize on strengths and shore up weaknesses rather than Ws or individual #s. I’ll worry when I see this group making the same errors and passing up the same opportunities game after game: whether the team D is headed in the right direction; whether they can develop a handful of half-court sets that are hard to stop; whether their transition O and D are consistently available and effective; their energy and resolve in the 4th. Individual numbers, except maybe for Amare’s board rate, TD and Melo’s assist rate, and Balkman’s PT won’t concern me so much for a few more games, and I hope it isn’t their focus either.

    37. bobneptune

      danvt:
      @17It’s good to know that your Warriors won’t make excuses when they don’t make the playoffs this year.

      @everyone else
      Toney is gonna be fine.I think he’ll start all year and figure it out.Last night was ugly, but they played a good first half, holding the Warriors to 37 points.Then they scored only 37 in the second half.I’m not saying TD is all world but I’m sick of the hate.No one played well in the second half.If Amar’e and Melo make half of their shots we win.If Chandle plays more than 22 minutes we would have done better.The starting guards didn’t pick up the slack and the bench is short because of injuries.One freakin’ game.I’m just sick of the “TD is not a PG” posts.We give our whole cap to three players and then everybody blames an overachieving 30th pick in the draft for every bad possession.

      let me try to address your points:

      you think td will be fine as a starting pg and your position is duly noted.

      “if amar’e and mello make 1/2 their shots we win”…… of course, the primary job of a point guard is to run the offense and get the ball into the scorers hands in spots where they are likely to succeed. td is utterly full of fail at this most important skill for a pg and hence what you call “all the hate” and what we call “objectivity” and non nuthugging for “our guy”.

      “if chandler plays more than 22 minutes”…… of course, if chandler didn’t have to jump out every trip down the floor to cover killers off the dribble like ish smith, maybe chandler could stay on the floor a bit longer and actually get position for a bloody rebound. but nahhhh…. that makes too much sense.

      “its one frickin game”…. its actually 2…. or 5 if you count the way he was fricasseed in the playoffs last year.

    38. jon abbey

      we have a lot of pieces in place, Chandler, Amare, Melo, and possibly even Douglas as a 6th man SG. Baron can maybe be another piece as starting PG, and it remains to be seen about everyone else, including D’Antoni.

    39. Gamecockerbocker

      Ben R: Thank you, this is exactly right. Whether or not TD is bad is not an excuse for Amare’s and Melo’s putrid play last night. If they are both worth max contracts and are all-world players shouldn’t they be able to play with a less than optimal PG. Kobe and Gasol won multiple championships with Fisher, Jordan won with Kerr and Paxton. If they cannot function without an above-average PG then they are not worth 15+million a year.

      If you think Douglas is an above average pg you’re out of your mind. He’s maybe a subpar point guard at best. Its not his fault though, his true position is sg!!!!

    40. Dave88

      Lee: Great, understated game from Lee. He single-handedly took Chandler out of the game. Sitting behind the Knicks bench you could hear Chandler complaining about him at times. Lee was gassed at the end of the game though, and you could see it on the FT line. And for those who noticed, the Knicks defense was so, so chaotic in the 4th because of their missing anchor. If would have liked to have seen what would happened if they kept Lee and hired Jackson.

    41. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      we have a lot of pieces in place, Chandler, Amare, Melo, and possibly even Douglas as a 6th man SG. Baron can maybe be another piece as starting PG, and it remains to be seen about everyone else, including D’Antoni.

      Here’s a bit of a chilling thought, though. You know how the debate is over whether Melo can play in D’Antoni’s system? We didn’t really get to see if he could last year because of the lack of practice time and Chauncey Billups’ disinterest in being taught a new trick. And that was fair enough. This year, we’re not seeing it because the Knicks don’t have a real point guard (and again, lack of practice time). Also, fair enough.

      Here’s the thing, though – what if D’Antoni gets fired (and perhaps rightfully so)? Do you see any system where Amar’e and Melo work together as complimentary pieces? They might just seriously not be complimentary players. Look at Nash and Shaq – both great players, but they might not be great players who compliment each other’s talents. Melo is an ISO player, Amar’e clearly cannot thrive playing ISO basketball. So if a new coach comes in and has the Knicks play ISO basketball, how would it be any sort of improvement? Heck, would Amar’e even make sense in the Triangle? Melo could definitely play the Triangle (he might have some adjustment issues, but if Kobe could do it, I imagine Melo could, too), but could Amar’e? Would you even want Amar’e to play the Triangle?

      So yes, we can certainly say that if the Knicks get a new point guard who can actually pass, things might change. But they might not – as Ben keeps arguing, there is always the chance that Melo does not respond to not being the focal point of the offense (and there’s always the worry about giving Baron Davis the keys to the offense and saying, “take control,” as you’re trusting him to become a Nash-like player and not the Marbury-like player he has been his entire career – I believe he can do that, and he has certainly said that he will do that, but, well, seeing is believing). In any event, we have seen these guys play together for nearly 40 games and they don’t look any more compatible now than they did when they first started playing together.

      It seems to turn on whether Melo is hitting his shots – if he is, then the whole game changes. If he hits his shots, the offense works, as teams have to double Melo and Amar’e and the other players gets better looks. If Melo doesn’t hit his shots (like last night), the offense stagnates. Last season, he hit his shots with a very high efficiency so the offense hummed. Again, Denver ran a very good offense based around Melo ISOs, so I am not saying that you shouldn’t run an offense around Melo. I’m saying that if you’re going to do that, Amar’e is not being used to the best of his abilities. And he might never be. And that is a worrisome thought.

    42. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

      Ben R: Thank you, this is exactly right. Whether or not TD is bad is not an excuse for Amare’s and Melo’s putrid play last night. If they are both worth max contracts and are all-world players shouldn’t they be able to play with a less than optimal PG. Kobe and Gasol won multiple championships with Fisher, Jordan won with Kerr and Paxton. If they cannot function without an above-average PG then they are not worth 15+million a year.

      That’s not a fair comparison. Jordan/Kobe were the PG’s in the triangle. That’s how it works (I think. I still can’t fully parse how the triangle offense functions. Phil Jackson and I are going on a spiritual retreat together this year at his secret Ashram and he’s gonna break it down for me). You have your main scorer initiate the offense and use a defender/spot-up shooter at the other guard spot — Fisher/Harper/Paxson/Kerr/etc., none of whom were true point guards. Toney Douglas would fit in quite nicely w/that crew if the ‘Bockers ran the triangle (which may be the case if/when all the PJax to NY rumors start flying).

      And a big shout out to danvt. Great to watch the game last night, even if it was a putrid effort by the Nix.

    43. Dave88

      bobneptune:

      “if amar’e and mello make 1/2 their shots we win”…… of course, the primary job of a point guard is to run the offense and get the ball into the scorers hands in spots where they are likely to succeed. td is utterly full of fail at this most important skill for a pg and hence what you call “all the hate” and what we call “objectivity” and non nuthugging for “our guy”.

      “if chandler plays more than 22 minutes”…… of course, if chandler didn’t have to jump out every trip down the floor to cover killers off the dribble like ish smith, maybe chandler could stay on the floor a bit longer and actually get position for a bloody rebound. but nahhhh…. that makes too much sense.

      “its one frickin game”…. its actually 2…. or 5 if you count the way he was fricasseed in the playoffs last year.

      I like to look at the whole picture. Knicks throw away several years and spent a bajillion to bring in stars, and be a contender. Chicago already was a contender. Warriors with Lee just beat both solidly without really having everything right. I never believed it was David Lee that was the problem. It was the cap clearing moves to get Lebron who was never coming to begin with, the owner, management, and the coach who says nothing about defense.

    44. John Kenney (@JohnbKenney)

      @Rsilverman I’d say more appropriately the Triangle lacks a PG. MJ and Kobe’s usage %’s were so high in large part due to who they were, not the triangle.. remember when Jackson said Kobe goes and screws it up by demanding the ball? Even though he backtracked, the reason he said it is because the triangle is equal-opportunity offense..

      @Garson

      The Amar’e curl around free throw line happened at least once last night, he just bricked it. The problem, in my opinion, is tied to something Hahn pointed out– Amar’e was using completely different form last night, falling away on almost all of his shots. He’s 6’10 and had space..there’s no reason he should be falling away. And he normally shoots straight up and cans it. When someone’s shot looks different than it has in the last 90 games you’ve seen him play, it’s no surprise when he misses a lot.

    45. John Kenney (@JohnbKenney)

      Also, I’ll be on Daily Dime Live tonight at espn.com/nba during the Knicks-Lakers game. Send in your intelligent, well-informed KB comments. And ideally, put “KB” somewhere in your username, it will help me to pick out your comments from the flow of thousands.

    46. Dave88

      I could not believe how cocky Knicks fans were pregame on the various forums. Talk about major flaws. The Knicks roster is loaded with them. Warriors should win at home vs the Knicks 4 out of 5 times. That’s without Stephen Curry.

    47. Z

      Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta):
      Oh crap. I agree with everything you said, Brian. Color me chilled.

      Wasn’t this the whole argument against “two superstars”? Ben R., and some of the other more vocal anti-Melo trade posters, have said all along that a team with functioning parts trumps a team of superstars. Melo and Amar’e weren’t really expected to mesh together here, and Melo wasn’t supposed to suddenly be a SSOL kind of guy. It was the idea that Melo would bring in Chris Paul to run the show that excited people about the Melo trade. Since that didn’t happen, and the best we can hope for is to grow TD, have Baron cater his game/body to fill our need, or buy a very old Steve Nash next year, I think Brian is right to have chilling thoughts of a bad-case-scenario surrounding the Knicks near-future.

      But, maybe it’ll all be okay. It was only one game, right? Let’s try to stay positive, until at least JJ comes back!

    48. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Fair point, Z, in that I was always one of the “the Melo trade is only a good one if it brings in Chris Paul” guys, but even I am a bit surprised at just how poorly Melo and Amar’e have meshed together. It just strikes me as bizarre that no one seems to care on the team that their two best players don’t compliment each other. I mean, they still can have a good offense provided that one of the two is hitting their shots, but it still seems strange. It is so obvious that Amar’e shouldn’t be playing ISO, and yet they keep running ISO!

    49. Frank

      @48 – before we jump off a bridge at Melo+Amare, let’s give them a little bit of time. As was pointed out in NBAPlaybook, Melo has some potential as a PnR ball handler – I’m not sure why Amare didn’t play roll man very much that game, but presumably that will be part of the attack eventually (ie. like when Felton and Amare looked like they were on different planets for the first month, then got it together in December/January).

      What we saw in the Celtics game seems like a pretty good idea too – run PnR with Chandler and Melo, and have Amare play the Dirk role.

      What we definitely can’t have is Amare trying to play the Melo role, especially when he’s not hitting his outside shot. They were playing him to drive all night last night and he couldn’t hit the jumper to make them pay. Last year he only scored 0.85 points/possession on iso plays, ranking him a putrid 105th in the league. Even worse, 32% (by far the largest portion) of his possessions were iso. By comparison, in 09-10 (PHX Amare), only 15% of his possessions were iso, with the difference being made up in possessions as the PNR roll man and in basket cuts – situations in which he scored 1.22 and 1.4 points/possession, good for top 20 in both.

      So in other words… when is Baron Davis coming back again? And can we sign Steve Nash?

    50. DS

      Brian’s post and other questions about whether the two stars can truly co-exist raises a question: what’s the full story with Amar’e’s “uninsured knees?”

      Is it really bringing down his trade value? Would insurance count against the cap? Does Dolan just think it’s overpriced and won’t pay for it and it would be an extra cost for a penny pinching team like New Orleans?

      Someone please enlighten.

    51. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Last year he only scored 0.85 points/possession on iso plays, ranking him a putrid 105th in the league. Even worse, 32% (by far the largest portion) of his possessions were iso. By comparison, in 09-10 (PHX Amare), only 15% of his possessions were iso, with the difference being made up in possessions as the PNR roll man and in basket cuts – situations in which he scored 1.22 and 1.4 points/possession, good for top 20 in both.

      Thanks, Frank, those stats are excellent (and depressing, but still, excellent info!).

    52. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Is it really bringing down his trade value? Would insurance count against the cap? Does Dolan just think it’s overpriced and won’t pay for it and it would be an extra cost for a penny pinching team like New Orleans?

      Someone please enlighten.

      Uninsured means that no one will give the Knicks insurance for his knees. And teams are wary about trading for a guy who they can’t even collect insurance on if he gets hurt. I don’t think it is necessarily that big of a deal, as I think teams would gladly pick up Amar’e. They just wouldn’t give the Knicks anything of real value for him. If they are going to trade one of their two stars, only Melo would actually bring anything of real value.

    53. BigBlueAL

      Is it really going to be like this after every loss this season?? Every loss is going to be a referendum on this team and its future??

      Wait what does referendum mean again?? lol

    54. JK47

      If the “greatest offensive coach ever” can’t figure out how to get a great scoring wing and a great scoring power forward to fit in together then he’s not all that great an offensive coach. A point guard that isn’t an undersized shooting guard or a walking corpse would help, as would running an offense with some coherence. I simply don’t accept the line that Stat and Melo can’t co-exist.

      The offense looks like an offense you’d see in a pickup game. If that’s because of the short season then we should start seeing some improvements soon. If it’s because of “synergy” problems and the offense still looks like doo-doo in mid-March I would suggest to you that D’Antoni is not much of a problem solver and needs to be canned.

    55. d-mar

      Can we all chill on the “this is why Melo is not a true superstar” talk after one bad game? The stats for the last game played by two superstar PG’s who we would all trade Melo straight up for:

      CP3 vs. Spurs 3-10 +/- -22
      D Will vs. Hawks 3-11 +/- – 17

      And another K-Blogger fave, Russell Westbrook, 0-13 from the field last night.

      We’re 0-2 without Melo, and I would expect a major bounceback game tonight vs. LA.

    56. Frank

      Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Thanks, Frank, those stats are excellent (and depressing, but still, excellent info!).

      Still learning how to use the stats portion of this synergy thing. It’s much clunkier than I was hoping it would be. I haven’t even tried to start doing real video scouting yet. FWIW, the subscription only costs $40 for the season to get the stat package on every NBA player and all the videos for 1 team (it’s $80 for all 30 teams). But some of the stats are really enlightening.

      For instance – Amare comes with this amazing reputation for being the preeminent PnR roll man, but last year Tyson Chandler was just amazing, scoring 1.39 PPP as the roll man, good for 2nd in the league. Synergy stats only go back to 2009-10 but I’m not sure if Amare ever matched that efficiency even when he and Nash were running it every play in Phoenix. What’s even more amazing is that Chandler was basically the 5th option on offense for Dallas, and he STILL had almost the same amount of possessions (150) as the PNR roll man as STAT did (200), who was the #1 option.

      So in other news – we need a real point guard.

    57. DS

      Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Uninsured means that no one will give the Knicks insurance for his knees. And teams are wary about trading for a guy who they can’t even collect insurance on if he gets hurt. I don’t think it is necessarily that big of a deal, as I think teams would gladly pick up Amar’e. They just wouldn’t give the Knicks anything of real value for him. If they are going to trade one of their two stars, only Melo would actually bring anything of real value.

      Thanks, Brian. The media makes it seem like another careless risk that only the Knicks would seem to make, which is not totally unfair. If I were a New Orleans or Orlando fan, I would not want my team centering a rebuilding project around Amar’e. It was a little different signing him along with Felton and what looked like more cap room in ’12.

    58. BigBlueAL

      Everyone talking about needing to bench TD. Pretty soon though we might be asking for Fields to be benched in favor of Walker.

    59. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

      Z:
      But, maybe it’ll all be okay. It was only one game, right? Let’s try to stay positive, until at least JJ comes back!

      Your comment made Samuel Beckett return from the dead. Seeing the existential dismay/meaninglessness of existence Nix fans are now suffering, Zombie Beckett is hard at work writing, “Waiting for Jared Jeffries.”

    60. BigBlueAL

      TD is a decent player. Everyone knows he is not a real PG. Doesnt mean he isnt a solid guard off the bench when placed in the proper role. There will be a few games this season the Knicks win because of TD making shots in the 4th quarter just like last season when he had a few games where he made a boatload of 3’s and scored over 20 pts.

    61. BigBlueAL

      Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): Your comment made Samuel Beckett return from the dead. Seeing the existential dismay/meaninglessness of existence Nix fans are now suffering, Zombie Beckett is hard at work writing, “Waiting for Jared Jeffries.”

      Reality is Jeffries wouldve probably made a significant difference last night for the Knicks. My head just exploded lol

    62. Caleb

      A lot of this discussion is beside the point – if the Knicks don’t meet expectations this year, it won’t be because of the offense (even if it was ugly last night). I mean, it’s true that Amare and Carmelo do NOT “mesh” – their games overlap, rather than complement each other. But it barely matters – even so, the Knicks had the best offense in the league last year, post-trade. Same idea as Miami; James and Wade have extremely similar games and the total is less than the sum of the parts, but it’s still a great offense because the parts are so valuable.

      I suppose if Baron Davis can’t play, the offense won’t be as good as last year, but it’s still going to be very good. The problem is that the Knicks can’t stop anyone and are getting outrebounded by 20 a game.

      re: Toney, I would mainly worry that he looks like he’s playing for a contract, like the next Jason Terry, and forgot that he was drafted as a defender. He’s not a PG but everyone knows that – that’s why we signed Bibby and Baron Davis.

      All in all, I’m not going to be too stressed. In a normal year, they’re only halfway through preseason now (in terms of practice time, games and playing together). So an awful lot could change.

    63. BigBlueAL

      I know alot of people here hate Bibby but right now Id rather have him start and have TD come off the bench and do what TD do. Bench would be alot better off too.

    64. Caleb

      Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): It seems to turn on whether Melo is hitting his shots – if he is, then the whole game changes. If he hits his shots, the offense works,

      Or as Chuck Daly once put it,
      “There are only two great plays: South Pacific, and Put the Ball in the Basket.”

    65. New Guy

      I happen to love TD and I think he can easily become a poor man’s Jason Terry. Terry, if I’m not mistaken, was also shoehorned into the PG role early in his career before finally blossoming when played in his rightful position.

      Frankly I think it is indefensible to continue to play him at a position is so clearly not suited for. You might as well play Jared Jefferies there.

      With TD at PG, we are weak at PG and SG. Hand the reins over to Bibby and Lin. Shift TD to shooting guard so he can do what he’s good at. We’re still weak at PG, but at least we’re stronger in one position.

    66. Gamecockerbocker

      BigBlueAL:
      TD is a decent player.Everyone knows he is not a real PG.Doesnt mean he isnt a solid guard off the bench when placed in the proper role.There will be a few games this season the Knicks win because of TD making shots in the 4th quarter just like last season when he had a few games where he made a boatload of 3?s and scored over 20 pts.

      I want TD to be that guy honestly. It’s too bad he is basically our point guard out of necessity.

    67. danvt

      bobneptune: td is utterly full of fail at this most important skill for a pg and hence what you call “all the hate” and what we call “objectivity” and non nuthugging for “our guy”.

      You got to chill on this type of rhetoric.

      Melo 3-13
      Amar’e 5-14
      Chandler 1-1
      Douglas 3-11
      Fields 5-10

      Well, TD didn’t play well but neither did anyone else. It’s the fixation on Toney that I have problems with. The other players have to make shots for a point guard to get assists. The baskets have to come in non isolation situations for the pg to get the ast. The pg needs to get an open look off a pass from someone else to shoot a good %, as well as be able to create for himself. Everyone facilitates everyone on a basketball team. When Miami lost, Lebron got the blame, not Mario Chalmers.

      The team did look ROUGH last night and maybe coach D is the problem, but the jury is out on that. He keeps getting tripped up. I mean, those lineups last night were crazy. Novak, Balkman, Bibby… these guys, most likely, will not be playing major minutes this spring. I mean, if the K’s don’t play well this year, D’Antoni is gone, injuries or not, poor management or not. I just hope he gets to have a balanced healthy roster so he get’s a real test.

    68. BigBlueAL

      Wow, just saw a note on Twitter saying last night’s game was most watched post 10 pm start on MSG since 2000.

    69. Gamecockerbocker

      The players aren’t hitting shots (particularly last night) because they were getting the ball in horrible spots. Someone else said it already but TD has a tendency to pick his dribble up way to early.

    70. Frank

      @77 – to be fair to Toney, a lot of the ugly iso stuff in the 4th quarter was with him on the bench. Not his fault if he’s on the bench.

      To be realistic with Toney – if he’s the PG then he has to run the offense and not allow iso after iso to happen. He also needs to make the right pass when it’s available. I’m not even a scout and I probably saw 5-6 plays where he didn’t make the obvious pass, and at least 3-4 plays where he plainly made the wrong pass.

      Toney’s not a bad player IMO – he’s just not a PG in this system. As I’ve said before, he’s Bobby Jackson 2.0, or even Chris Childs. Unfortunately, we need Steve Nash, or at least someone like Luke Ridnour to make best of use of Amare and Chandler, who need someone to get them the ball at the right time. Melo can score whenever Melo wants (except against Dominic McGuire, apparently) but the other 2 need help.

    71. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

      Caleb: Or as Chuck Daly once put it,
      “There are only two great plays: South Pacific, and Put the Ball in the Basket.”

      This is neither here nor there and that quote’s been ascribed to a bunch of folks, but no matter who said it, they’re wrong: South Pacific is a bunch of saccharine, racist tripe masquerading as theater.

      Anyway…where were we? Oh yes, Jared Jeffries will save us!

    72. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      danvt:
      Well, TD didn’t play well but neither did anyone else.It’s the fixation on Toney that I have problems with.

      What do you mean? Even when Carmelo and Amar’e play like the mediocre players they are, they make everyone else around them better. Toney D doesn’t do that. He’s a mere mortal. Only superstars make their teammates better.

    73. bobneptune

      danvt: You got to chill on this type of rhetoric.

      Melo 3-13
      Amar’e 5-14
      Chandler 1-1
      Douglas 3-11
      Fields 5-10

      Well, TD didn’t play well but neither did anyone else.It’s the fixation on Toney that I have problems with.The other players have to make shots for a point guard to get assists.The baskets have to come in non isolation situations for the pg to get the ast.The pg needs to get an open look off a pass from someone else to shoot a good %, as well as be able to create for himself.

      with all due respect the only thing that needs to be chilled is the “all the hate” rhetoric when someone presents an argument contrary to yours.

      that being said. the discussion overall is about whether td is/will be a reasonable point guard in the nba sometime in this millennium.

      he doesn’t possess a single quintessential pg skill like penetrating to set up others, running anything, making others around him better or putting the ball in the scorer’s hands in a reasonable place (for them). plus… he can’t keep an ish smith out of the paint, let alone rondo.

      you think maybe if he was able to penetrate just a little teensy-weensy bit, someone might have gotten a better/higher percentage shot last night, somewhere? but that’s not the point guard’s responsibility, right?

      other than that….. he has a great future running the point.

    74. D.

      Man i love you guys. So smart. But how come anyone has never asked why Amare didnt learn how to play low post during the lock out.i mean melo plays high post iso, amare is at least capable of playing low post iso like dwight. I think they compliment each other and they have the tools and gifts to become different things like the Big 3 in Boston did.

    75. bobneptune

      Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): This is neither here nor there and that quote’s been ascribed to a bunch of folks, but no matter who said it, they’re wrong: South Pacific is a bunch of saccharine, racist tripe masquerading as theater.

      methinks you need to re-watch south pacific again….. or i need to retune my leveling gene :-) i mean it is pretty much the most anti racist piece of culture in the history of western civilization.

    76. Z

      Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): that quote’s been ascribed to a bunch of folks, but no matter who said it, they’re wrong: South Pacific is a bunch of saccharine, racist tripe masquerading as theater.

      Anyway…where were we? Oh yes, Jared Jeffries will save us!

      “We gotta wash TD right out of our hair…”

    77. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      To be realistic with Toney – if he’s the PG then he has to run the offense and not allow iso after iso to happen. He also needs to make the right pass when it’s available. I’m not even a scout and I probably saw 5-6 plays where he didn’t make the obvious pass, and at least 3-4 plays where he plainly made the wrong pass.

      Toney’s not a bad player IMO – he’s just not a PG in this system. As I’ve said before, he’s Bobby Jackson 2.0, or even Chris Childs. Unfortunately, we need Steve Nash, or at least someone like Luke Ridnour to make best of use of Amare and Chandler, who need someone to get them the ball at the right time. Melo can score whenever Melo wants (except against Dominic McGuire, apparently) but the other 2 need help.

      Obviously, I agree.

    78. Z

      Frank:
      Toney’s not a bad player IMO – he’s just not a PG in this system. As I’ve said before, he’s Bobby Jackson 2.0.

      Bobby Jackson was a great penetrator, and a poor defender. Not sure how TD is much like him. (But if you’re right, then we can put him next to Bibby and have the most dynamic backcourt in the league, circa 2002…)

    79. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

      bobneptune: methinks you need to re-watch south pacific again….. or i need to retune my leveling gene :-) i mean it is pretty much the most anti racist piece of culture in the history of western civilization.

      Sorry Bob. The whole “Nellie overcomes her racism to love Emile” narrative is a cover for the fact that the Polynesians depicted are all horrid, 2-D stereotypes. South Pacific is a textbook example of Orientalism — the western mania for dominating the lives and dismissing the souls of those who are not white. It’s just an awful, awful play.

      And I’m down w/the Bobby Jackson comparison to DWTDD

    80. danvt

      bobneptune: with all due respect the only thing that needs to be chilled is the “all the hate” rhetoric when someone presents an argument contrary to yours.

      It’s the nut hugger comment that was disrespectful, nothing I said.

      I don’t think I ever made TD out to be more than he is, but, I think he’s better than he’s shown and he’s just one player on a team. I think, we will succeed or fail based on many factors. Right now, I admit, I’d like to see TD play really well so that the media party line of “The K’s have no point guard” and the blogosphere panic “TD doesn’t possess a single quintessential pg skill” dies down.

    81. xduckshoex

      I really wish the Knicks had offered up Melo or Amare for Paul right now. I know it’s early but I haven’t seen anything since the Melo trade that convinces me that the Knicks put all of their eggs in the right basket.

      If Melo doesn’t have a no trade clause(and I don’t think he can have one) the Knicks should start offering him to the Nets for Williams. The Knicks get the point guard they need, the Nets get a star that is locked up long term, Melo gets to stay in NY, I get to stop tearing my hair out in frustration when Melo posts up 20 feet away and launches a turnaround jumper without even trying for a better look. Almost everybody wins.

      It won’t happen, but I can dream…

    82. Spree8nyk8

      If they would ship anyone for williams it should be STAT. We won’t win with STAT being our primary scorer.

    83. BigBlueAL

      xduckshoex:
      I really wish the Knicks had offered up Melo or Amare for Paul right now.I know it’s early but I haven’t seen anything since the Melo trade that convinces me that the Knicks put all of their eggs in the right basket.

      If Melo doesn’t have a no trade clause(and I don’t think he can have one) the Knicks should start offering him to the Nets for Williams.The Knicks get the point guard they need, the Nets get a star that is locked up long term, Melo gets to stay in NY, I get to stop tearing my hair out in frustration when Melo posts up 20 feet away and launches a turnaround jumper without even trying for a better look.Almost everybody wins.

      It won’t happen, but I can dream…

      Were you tearing your hair out every time Melo took a shot against the Celtics??

    84. d-mar

      xduckshoex: I really wish the Knicks had offered up Melo or Amare for Paul right now. I know it’s early but I haven’t seen anything since the Melo trade that convinces me that the Knicks put all of their eggs in the right basket.If Melo doesn’t have a no trade clause(and I don’t think he can have one) the Knicks should start offering him to the Nets for Williams. The Knicks get the point guard they need, the Nets get a star that is locked up long term, Melo gets to stay in NY, I get to stop tearing my hair out in frustration when Melo posts up 20 feet away and launches a turnaround jumper without even trying for a better look. Almost everybody wins.It won’t happen, but I can dream…

      This kind of stuff drives me crazy. We’ve had Melo for a less than half of a full season, and so far this season, he’s carried the team on his back to victory in one game and had an off night (along with the rest of the team) in the second. And now you proclaim we’ve put our eggs in the wrong basket? As I posted earlier, Paul and D-Will had awful games in their last starts, are their fans clamoring for a trade? Can we just be a little bit patient and see how this plays out for maybe 20 games or so? And if we suck then, we can trade Melo for Westbrook, fire D’Antoni, and all will be well with the Knicks.

    85. xduckshoex

      Spree8nyk8:
      If they would ship anyone for williams it should be STAT.We won’t win with STAT being our primary scorer.

      Well that’s an overly simple way of looking at things, but if you want to go down that road: teams that relied on Melo for their scoring have lost in the first round 8 times in his 9 year career. Amare has played in the conference finals 3 times and was clearly the primary scoring option on each of those teams.

    86. Ben R

      Meloball is our future for better or worse. We need to embrace that fact and make the most of his considerable skills. It’s not my first choice but it is what it is. Melo has played with Andre Miller, Iverson, Billups and now Douglas as his PG. In all cases he was still an iso player and the offense still functioned off of his isos. I don’t see it changing when Davis gets healthy.

      We need to embrace that fact and we need Amare to get on board. He needs to be Nene in this offense. He needs to be willing to take the shots that the defense gives him and play a secondary/tertiary role to Melo. Against Boston he did just that and scored 21 points on 11 shots. He needs to not try and be Melo. In Denver Melo was the first and second option and then the third option was Billups and the fourth option was Nene, that is how we need to run this offense, With Melo being Melo, Douglas being Billups and Amare being Nene. If we do that we can make it work but if we run an iso heavy offense Amare cannot be a primary option.

    87. xduckshoex

      d-mar: This kind of stuff drives me crazy. We’ve had Melo for a less than half of a full season, and so far this season, he’s carried the team on his back to victory in one game and had an off night (along with the rest of the team) in the second. And now you proclaim we’ve put our eggs in the wrong basket? As I posted earlier, Paul and D-Will had awful games in their last starts, are their fans clamoring for a trade? Can we just be a little bit patient and see how this plays out for maybe 20 games or so? And if we suck then, we can trade Melo for Westbrook, fire D’Antoni, and all will be well with the Knicks.

      Right, but Melo has been in the NBA for 10 years now. It’s not “the sky is falling” after one bad game, I questioned the value of Melo from the start and he has yet to show me anything which indicates that those concerns were incorrect. He is still the ball stopper he was in Denver. He still relies on isolation and mid range jumpers for his offense which are the least effective options in the NBA. He’s still inconsistent with his effort on defense. He still struggles with including other people in the offense. The acquisition of Melo only works if he changes some or all of that but in the Warriors game every single one of those flaws I mentioned was on display for everyone to see.

    88. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex: Well that’s an overly simple way of looking at things, but if you want to go down that road: teams that relied on Melo for their scoring have lost in the first round 8 times in his 9 year career.Amare has played in the conference finals 3 times and was clearly the primary scoring option on each of those teams.

      Melo/Dwill/Chandler is a better setup than STAT/Chandler/Dwill

    89. jon abbey

      people know that no one is taking Melo or Amare for any of the top PGs, right? why are we still talking about that?

    90. xduckshoex

      jon abbey:
      people know that no one is taking Melo or Amare for any of the top PGs, right? why are we still talking about that?

      Well like I said, I’m dreaming. I’ll include Fields in that dream trade so we can both be happy with it.

    91. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

      jon abbey:
      people know that no one is taking Melo or Amare for any of the top PGs, right? why are we still talking about that?

      Because we’re Knicks fans and we hold a grudge/cling to hope like few others do

    92. daJudge

      I think the Knicks should embrace a more conservative power front court and game in general. They have really good players at the 3, 4 & 5. That is our strength and I don’t care what Denver does or any other team does for that matter. It is irrelevant and this coach needs to work with what he’s got. I love Amare, but he needs to play the 4 like a 4. He needs to be a power forward. I don’t mind the occasional 3 pointer, but come on. We do not need another 3, period. It is so redundant that if Amare wants to be a small forward, you might as well not play him with Melo. Coach needs to game plan to this team’s strengths, not try to create some fancy offensive attack, particularly when our back court is lackluster. Maybe, we can have more ball movement and cool plays with BD, maybe not. I don’t care…just win. But for god’s sakes, run the stink’in PnR, back door cuts, set some hard picks, throw an outlet pass, play basic offense. Our poor rebounding reflects the fact that we are not focusing on proper roles. Look, whatever anyone may think, can we at least agree that Melo is a very good 3. Chandler is an awesome Center. IMO, Amare needs to be a power forward, plain and simple.

    93. bobneptune

      danvt: It’s the nut hugger comment that was disrespectful, nothing I said.

      I don’t think I ever made TD out to be more than he is, but, I think he’s better than he’s shown and he’s just one player on a team.I think, we will succeed or fail based on many factors.Right now, I admit, I’d like to see TD play really well so that the media party line of “The K’s have no point guard” and the blogosphere panic “TD doesn’t possess a single quintessential pg skill” dies down.

      if we were writing for the ny times “nuthugger” would be disrespectful. it is no different than “fanboi”, merely stating you think the other guy’s opinion is clouded with something other than objectivity. no disrespect meant.

      as to following the media party line, readers of this blog will note i was pilloried widely for suggesting the knicks try for barera to start at point BEFORE the season began (we drafted toney, he’s ‘our guy’ and we should let him somehow ‘find himself’… blah, blah… blah) because td’s shortcomings as a starting pg were obvious to all that weren’t wearing orange and blue colored glasses.

      he’ll probably put up 28 tonight just to spite me…….

    94. jon abbey

      I doubt you were “pilloried widely” but we never had the money to sign Barea, and please stop writing it Barera.

    95. danvt

      bobneptune: if we were writing for the ny times “nuthugger” would be disrespectful. it is no different than “fanboi”, merely stating you think the other guy’s opinion is clouded with something other than objectivity. no disrespect meant.

      as to following the media party line, readers of this blog will note i was pilloried widely for suggesting the knicks try for barera to start at point BEFORE the season began (we drafted toney, he’s ‘our guy’ and we should let him somehow ‘find himself’… blah, blah… blah) because td’s shortcomings as a starting pg were obvious to all that weren’t wearing orange and blue colored glasses.

      he’ll probably put up 28 tonight just to spite me…….

      Thanks for the explanation. No disrespect taken

      I was thinking of that thread before. I don’t think I posted anything on it but I read it with interest. I think, the consensus from the worthy people on this site was, if you could sign either of them outright, which it turned out we couldn’t, fine, but few wanted to give up Douglas in an S&T for either of them, citing his defense and his upside.

      I think, on this site, there’s very little blind enthusiasm for the home team. I mean, from the way people talk about Melo you might think he plays for the Celtics. My take on the Douglas / Fields backcourt was that this is what we have and until someone beats them out, this is the best we have. Starks defeated all comers, kept his starting job for a long time, and played on some good teams. I thought maybe these guys might have similar careers. Who knows maybe Toney goes 3-18 tonight just despite me (and gets replaced by Jeremy Lin!)

    96. bobneptune

      Doug:
      Yes Bob, you’re a regular Cassandra around these parts.

      i prefer to be a regular salome and i want the head of td, not john the baptist, damn it! :-)

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