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Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Dec 20 2012)

  • [New York Post] Knicks bury Nets in Garden (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 05:28:03 -0500)
    There isn’t a doubt any longer which borough is home to the best basketball team or the city’s best player.
    The Brooklyn commute to Manhattan can be a bear, and Wednesday night it became a disastrous trip for the struggling Nets in their first-ever foray to the Garden…

  • [New York Post] Opposites detract from city’s newest rivalry (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:12:35 -0500)
    So it seems we may have to wait a while before we get Lakers-Celtics, Dodgers-Giants, or Army-Navy thriving on either end of the Manhattan Bridge.
    It seems the deep passions that burned those first two nights in Brooklyn â?? when Barclays Center looked and sounded resplendent in its fiery neutrality â?? will…

  • [New York Post] Smith finally finds his shot (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:54:39 -0500)
    Mike Woodson has done something no coach ever has done.
    He’s told J.R. Smith not to hesitate when he shoots.
    “Other than Coach Woodson, I’ve never been told I was hesitating,â? Smith said with a smile after shooting 7 of 11 and scoring 19 points last night…

  • [New York Post] Once again, Brooklyn flops in 3rd (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:32:30 -0500)
    It was a different night, but the same old story.
    The Nets, who have struggled to get themselves going in the third quarter all season, saw the Knicks break the game open with a 18-6 run over the final 6:54 of the third quarter last night to hand the…

  • [New York Post] Amar’e to test knee again today (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:32:30 -0500)
    With Rasheed Wallace’s sore left foot becoming a bigger issue, the Knicks’ need for Amar’e Stoudemire has grown. Thursday will be a huge day as Stoudemire will participate in the Erie Bayhawks’ practice for the second time, to be conducted at the Westchester facility.
    Stoudemire rested his sore…

  • [New York Post] Knicks center dominates in second half (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:32:30 -0500)
    Nets center Brook Lopez was so excited for last night â?? the first time the Brooklyn Nets were playing the Knicks in Madison Square Garden.
    Then the game began.
    Knicks center Tyson Chandler eventually turned all that excitement into frustration, and the Nets may have left the joint hoping it was…

  • [New York Post] Isiah lands NBA TV gig (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:00:41 -0500)
    Isiah Thomas is going to get another chance â?? on television.NBA TV announced yesterday that Thomas has joined its team of studio analysts and will make his debut on tomorrow’s pregame show prior to the Knicks-Bulls matchup on the channel.The former Knicks coach and president had tried out…

  • [New York Post] Nets defense gets picked apart with pick-and-rolls (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:39:24 -0500)
    The Knicks have beaten teams from 3-point range all season long. But it was the work of Tyson Chandler in and around the paint that, more than anything, led to the Nets suffering their third straight loss last night, as Chandler’s 16 points and 12 rebounds powered the Knicks…

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Notebook: J.R.'s come a long way (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 00:34:12 EDT)
    Last season, it was clear that after Mike Woodson took over the Knicks in March, he had a positive effect on J.R. Smith. It was as if the two of them developed a father-son relationship. When Smith would make a mistake, Woodson would make sure to call him over to the sideline and give him tough love about what he did wrong. But Smith didn’t sneer; he made strides, which he’s also been doing this season.
    Case in point: After Smith had been struggling to find his shot earlier in the month, the coach pulled his best bench scorer aside during practice on Tuesday and talked to him.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Avery on Melo: 'He's on another planet' (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 00:22:13 EDT)
    About two hours before tipoff on Wednesday, Carmelo Anthony was on the Madison Square Garden floor, running sprints at half speed and shooting around to test his injured left ankle.
    “For the most part, I felt pretty good,” he said.
    And that was a good thing for the Knicks.
    The warmup convinced Anthony that he could suit up for New York’s showdown against the Brooklyn Nets.
    And Anthony didn’t just suit up, he dominated.
    After sitting out two games due to an injured left ankle, Melo poured in a game-high 31 points in 36 minutes to lead the Knicks to a 14-point win over Brooklyn.

  • [New York Daily News] Returning Melo goes off with 31 as Knicks best Nets (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:33:18 GMT)
    For the second time in eight days, the Knicks defeated their crosstown rival and marked Carmelo Anthony’s return with a 100-86 victory. The Knicks improved to 19-6 overall and 2-1 over Brooklyn.

  • [New York Daily News] Chandler slams Nets, says Knicks needed to make statement (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:24:49 GMT)
    Tyson Chandler didn’t mince words when it was over, boasting that the Knicks “wanted to make a statementâ? Wednesday night against the Nets. Chandler insisted he was talking mostly about getting back to the defensive identity that had helped the Knicks build the best record in the Eastern Conference before an ugly home loss Monday against Jeremy Lin and the Rockets.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Anthony earns â??A’ from Knicks great Ewing (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 05:52:01 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony was back on the court on Wednesday night, scoring and leading the Knicks to another win that helped them stay atop the Eastern Conference.

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony's return along with defense lead Knicks over Nets (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 00:28:03 EST)
    Carmelo Anthony wasn't sure he would be able to play because his badly bruised left ankle still bothered him. But he felt good enough to inflict more pain on the slumping Nets.

  • [New York Times] Durant Scores 41 as Streaking Thunder Top Hawks (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:00:22 GMT)
    Oklahoma City’s biggest stars displayed a unique version of balanced scoring against Atlanta: Russell Westbrook led the Thunder in the first half and Kevin Durant dominated the Hawks over the final two quarters.

  • [New York Times] Clippers Beat Hornets 93-77 for 11th Straight Win (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:14:59 GMT)
    The Los Angeles Clippers’ franchise record-tying 11th consecutive victory had owner Donald Sterling leading a “hip, hip hooray” chant in the locker room.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Kevin Durant’s 41 Points Help Thunder Win 12th Straight (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:00:20 GMT)
    Russell Westbrook had 27 points and 11 assists Wednesday as Oklahoma City defeated Atlanta, 100-92.

  • [New York Times] For Nets, a Frustrating Game, Week and Month (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:54:04 GMT)
    After going 11-4 in November, the Nets are 2-8 in December after losing to the Knicks, and are, according to their coach, starting to look tired.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Copeland Waited a Long Time for His Shot (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:54:04 GMT)
    Chris Copeland, an impressive scorer in five years in Europe, made his first start for the Knicks last Saturday, and in Monday’s loss had 29 points.

  • [New York Times] NBA TV Hires Isiah Thomas as Studio Analyst (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:52:04 GMT)
    Isiah Thomas, who will also contribute to NBA.com, has been absent from the N.B.A. since being fired as the Knicks’ president and coach in 2008.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 100, Nets 86: Knicks Demonstrate Distance From Nets With Win (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:47:20 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 31 points after missing two games because of a sprained left ankle as the Knicks won for the 10th time in 12 games, while the Nets lost their third straight game.

  • [New York Times] Kings Snap 5-Game Skid, Outlast Warriors 131-127 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:00:18 GMT)
    DeMarcus Cousins scored 24 points, Aaron Brooks added 23 points and the Sacramento Kings snapped a five-game losing streak by outlasting the Golden State Warriors 131-127 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] SPORTS: Brooklyn Ballers (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 04:52:11 GMT)
    New York City’s biggest basketball stars have come mostly from Brooklyn.

  • [New York Times] Suns Hand Charlotte 13th Straight Loss (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 04:45:07 GMT)
    Shannon Brown scored a season-high 26 points and the Phoenix Suns routed the Bobcats 121-104 on Wednesday night, Charlotte’s league-worst 13th straight loss.

  • [New York Times] Green Scores 21 to Lead Pacers Past Jazz 104-84 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 04:00:22 GMT)
    It’s all starting to come together for Gerald Green and the Indiana Pacers.

  • [New York Times] Harden Scores 33 as Rockets Beat 76ers 125-103 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:48:47 GMT)
    James Harden had 33 points and seven assists to lead the Houston Rockets to a 125-103 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Durant, Streaking Thunder Beat Hawks, 100-92 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:18:30 GMT)
    Kevin Durant set a season high with 41 points, and the Oklahoma City Thunder held off the Atlanta Hawks 100-92 on Wednesday night for their 12th straight win.

  • [New York Times] Pierce Scores 40 to Lead Celtics Over Cavs 103-91 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:07:03 GMT)
    Paul Pierce scored 25 of his season-high 40 points in the second half, carrying the Boston Celtics to a 103-91 win over the Cleveland Cavaliers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Reserves Lead Magic to Win Over Wizards (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:03:16 GMT)
    J.J. Redick scored 17 points and fellow reserve E’Twaun Moore had 15 on Wednesday night, leading the Orlando Magic to a 90-83 win over the Washington Wizards.

  • [New York Times] Anthony Returns, Helps Knicks Rout Nets 100-86 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:48:44 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 31 points in his return to the lineup, and the New York Knicks beat the Brooklyn Nets 100-86 on Wednesday night in the third meeting this season between the city rivals.

  • [New York Times] DeRozan Scores 23 as Raptors Beat Pistons 97-91 (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:45:38 GMT)
    DeMar DeRozan had 23 points, Alan Anderson scored 12 of his 16 points in the fourth quarter and the Toronto Raptors beat the Detroit Pistons 97-91 Wednesday night, extending their winning streak to four games.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Stoudemire and Anthony Move Closer to Playing Together (Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:38:34 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire said he would not object to coming off the bench rather than reassuming his role as the starting power forward, a position currently filled by Carmelo Anthony.

  • 81 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Dec 20 2012)

    1. Nick C.

      On Felton and his shooting: this year the NBA averages per Hoopdata are: At rim 63.9, 3-9′: 38.0, 10-15′ 40.6, 16-23′: 37.8, 3s EF% 53.4.
      Felton: Rim 52.6, 3-9: 25.0, 10-15′: 35.3, 16-23′: 37.0; 3s: 58.5
      for the 10-015 range this season is his best since a 3year run with charlotte where he wnet 40.0, 48.0, 49.1. Wierd how he improved years 2-4 then cratered. 16-23′ he had been between 36-39% except for 2010 (34%) and NYK 1.0 43%. At the rim he has never been over 60%. 3-9′ other than his second year (58%) he has been all over the place from 25-45.
      In other words he has been for his career below average shooting or finishing everywhere except from behind the arc.
      That being said I like him and like him for this team. Hopefully the addition of Amare and Melo being back greatly reduce the temptation to fire up the shot he cannot make at the first sign of a foilign of a pick and roll.

    2. JK47

      Remember when everyone was like all bummed out after the Knicks traded for Melo then like even more bummed out after the Nets traded for Deron Williams, and everyone was all like “The Nets outsmarted us” and “Deron Williams, now THERE’S a guy who’s a real max contract player” and all that?

      Remember that?

    3. d-mar

      JK47:
      Remember when everyone was like all bummed out after the Knicks traded for Melo then like even more bummed out after the Nets traded for Deron Williams, and everyone was all like “The Nets outsmarted us” and “Deron Williams, now THERE’S a guy who’s a real max contract player” and all that?

      Remember that?

      +1 and remember how so many were enamored of the Knuggets, the team of ex-Knicks that was going to set the world on fire? And the howls of indignation when we had to throw in Timofey Mozgov to make the Melo deal happen?

    4. Frank

      Encouraging stuff out there about Amare and Shump today. Sounds like Amare was pretty active in the scrimmage (although not ready to come back this weekend), and Shump was cleared to do “extensive conditioning drills”.

      Feels like we’ll be back to semi-full strength in a couple weeks.

      I think their return will be HUGE for this team, or at least huge as it can be for a team that is 19-6 without them. As far as I can tell, our biggest weaknesses are scoring the ball when Tyson/Melo are out of the game (ie. the first 6+ min of the 2nd and 4th quarters), and guarding the other team’s best PG/SG.

      Man this is so exciting.

    5. JK47

      One thing I feel like Amar’e and Shump will help us with is length.

      Right now we’re running a lot of short-ish lineups out there– The most common lineups have the 6’8″ Melo at PF, 6’7″ Ronnie Brewer or 6’6″ JR Smith at SF and 6’4″ Jason Kidd at SG.

      Amar’e and Shump’s return will add a 6’10″ PF and a 6’5″ SG with a very long wingspan to the mix, and will allow Melo to slide back to SF, where he’ll no longer be undersized.

      My guess is that the offense will get a little worse when those two return, but the defense will improve, even though Amar’e is not a very good defensive player. Shump’s ball-hawking skills, ability to prevent dribble penetration and long arms will help the defense a lot I think. Kidd has his Jedi-like moments on defense and isn’t a total liability on that end but sometimes he’s just overmatched trying to hang with younger SGs who have the edge on him in size and speed.

    6. Garson

      When Shump does return, Im hoping he picked up on a key tendency from Ronnie Brewer. If Shumpman can replicate his cutting without the ball ability , he will be a tremensous addition to the first team…. his finishing ability is no doubt lightyears ahead of brewers.

    7. Hubert Davis

      I would argue that the Knicks probably wouldn’t be 19-6 right now with Lin instead of Felton, and it’s impossible to quantify the cumulative effect of winning early and a team’s confidence growing. But he makes a compelling point that we might not have the best point guard we could have had this year.

    8. Frank

      JK47: One thing I feel like Amar’e and Shump will help us with is length.

      Right now we’re running a lot of short-ish lineups out there– The most common lineups have the 6’8? Melo at PF, 6’7? Ronnie Brewer or 6’6? JR Smith at SF and 6’4? Jason Kidd at SG.

      Amar’e and Shump’s return will add a 6’10? PF and a 6’5? SG with a very long wingspan to the mix, and will allow Melo to slide back to SF, where he’ll no longer be undersized.

      I’m actually thinking Shump will take Brewer’s spot playing the 3 in the starting lineup. We saw it last night – teams are dealing with the Melo-at-the-4 mismatch by putting their 3 on Melo and hiding their 4 on Brewer– or they are doubling Melo and leaving Brewer all by himself. Brewer counteracts that by cutting to the hoop, but he’s barely made any actual baskets on that this year (I think it was something like 12 over 24 games last time I looked). Now just imagine someone like Kris Humphries or Reggie Evans trying to guard Shump.

      And Iman is a good enough defender to match up with most 3′s in this league – especially since the league-wide trend is going small — guys like Durant, Melo, and LBJ are all playing the 4 now.

    9. yellowboy90

      Frank: I’m actually thinking Shump will take Brewer’s spot playing the 3 in the starting lineup.We saw it last night – teams are dealing with the Melo-at-the-4 mismatch by putting their 3 on Melo and hiding their 4 on Brewer– or they are doubling Melo and leaving Brewer all by himself. Brewer counteracts that by cutting to the hoop, but he’s barely made any actual baskets on that this year (I think it was something like 12 over 24 games last time I looked).Now just imagine someone like Kris Humphries or Reggie Evans trying to guard Shump.

      And Iman is a good enough defender to match up with most 3?s in this league – especially since the league-wide trend is going small — guys like Durant, Melo, and LBJ are all playing the 4 now.

      I don’t think Brewer ie healthy but amar’e coming off the bench may open the door for Jr to be a starter. Slightly unlikely but possible.

    10. Hubert Davis

      Hubert Davis:
      Here’s a great article challenging the idea that Felton really has been a better fit for this team:

      http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/sports/2012/12/6932540/comparison-raymond-felton-and-jeremy-lin-updated

      “The Knicks are winning, but it’s not because they replaced Lin with Felton. It’s because the rest of the Knicks are playing well enough to make up for it.”

      Apologies. Looks like it was one of those articles that was free for a while and then requires you to register after a certain amount of time.

    11. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: Apologies.Looks like it was one of those articles that was free for a while and then requires you to register after a certain amount of time.

      This team’s offensive strengths are 3 point shooting and keeping turnovers low, not to mention that it’s pretty funny that Lin is supposed to just fit in New York when he hasn’t been able to fit in Houston. Would he magically be better at playing off the ball on this team? How does Melo function properly otherwise…

      Lin has been benched several times for Toney Douglas SUCCESSFULLY. The same Toney Douglas that was the worst NBA player ever last year has been taking an increasing amount of Lin’s minutes. TD is a bit better now, but not by much….

      If you want to say that Lin is the 18th best PG and Felton is the 20th best in the league, go ahead and say that. Just realize that Lin is useless for any team when he doesn’t have the ball, and Melo is worlds better when he has the ball.

      The funniest line of the article was saying that Lin’s assist numbers were deceiving since he played off the ball a lot. I guess that Felton spotting up off of Melo post ups doesn’t count as playing off the ball….

    12. nicos

      Hubert Davis:
      Here’s a great article challenging the idea that Felton really has been a better fit for this team:

      http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/sports/2012/12/6932540/comparison-raymond-felton-and-jeremy-lin-updated

      “The Knicks are winning, but it’s not because they replaced Lin with Felton. It’s because the rest of the Knicks are playing well enough to make up for it.”

      Does Felton deserve credit for some of those guys “playing well enough to make up for it?” Moving Kidd off of the ball has really helped him though you can’t say Lin wouldn’t have had the same effect. I noted a couple of days ago just how much better Chandler has been in the pnr this year- the numbers aren’t even close- given that he runs it with Felton more often than not surely Felton deserves some of this credit. I’m not saying Felton has been great- to shoot so often and so poorly is inexcusable- but with the exception of a couple of bad games he’s been solid defensively and he’s run the offense extremely well. Judging a point guard primarily by his TS% is pretty short-sighted- the first thing I’d ask when judging a point guard is “Is the team getting good shots when he’s in the game?” Even counting his own pull-ups early in the clock (really bad any way you cut it) I’d say the answer is pretty overwhelmingly yes. This offense is running far better than it ever did under Lin and nothing Lin has done this year suggests he could run it better than Felton.

    13. d-mar

      How weird is it that if the playoffs started tomorrow, we’d play Boston in the 1st round? How times have changed.

    14. JK47

      I fear that the Lin-Felton comparisons are going to look worse and worse the more time passes; they’re headed in opposite directions right now. Lin has a .574 TS% over his last ten games; Felton’s TS% over his last ten is .442.

      The kind of shooting performances Felton is producing are exactly the thing that made me cringe when he was brought back here:

      4-15
      7-18
      9-20
      9-26
      3-12
      4-15
      9-30

      It just goes on and on like that. That’s the Ray Felton I remember. If anything his chucking is worse than ever. Felton is of course turning over the ball at a very low rate and this has a lot of value, but at some point Felton’s pitiful TS% kind of negates the low turnovers, no? Especially when you consider the guy is chucking the ball like Allen Iverson on a Red Bull bender.

      But the offense is #2 in the league, so he’s not killing us I guess.

    15. jon abbey

      again, if a huge amount of your offense is a two man game and one of those two is putting up fantastic numbers and the other one is putting up pretty bad numbers, it stands to reason that a good bit of the problem is with the way the numbers are registered. Chandler isn’t anywhere near as good an offensive player as his numbers make him look, and Felton isn’t as bad as his make him look.

    16. flossy

      jon abbey: Chandler isn’t anywhere near as good an offensive player as his numbers make him look, and Felton isn’t as bad as his make him look.

      Felton is clearly running the Knicks offense well so far in spite of shooting a mind-boggling 17.5 shots per 36 at a horrible .467 TS%. But he’s also in the perfect situation–he’s got an otherworldly offensive talent playing the best ball of his career, the best player in the NBA at both catching lobs and cleaning up misses on offense and mistakes on defense, and one of the best PGs of all time on the court with him to smooth thing over whenever times get tough.

      The fact of the matter is that he’s shooting too much, and too shittily, for this to remain the status quo for the rest of the season and the Knicks to be successful. When Amar’e gets back, Felton shooting mid-range jumpers off the bounce needs to be no higher than Plan D on offense. Some players get left open for good reason.

    17. Z-man

      Why were people so quick to cut Lin slack for being injured last year, and yet now that Felton is playing with bone bruises on both hands, no one brings it up as a possible reason for his shooting numbers going down? Before he got hurt, his TS% was around .510, not great but not terrible either.

    18. Z-man

      Also, Melo missed half of the games that Felton has chucked up the most shots. Wallace has been out lately. JR was shooting just as terribly. Novak was not getting open. Prigs doesn’t/can’t volume score. Chandler plays mostly off the ball. White is useless. Copeland is only coming on low. There haven’t been a whole lot of options for the Knicks when Melo is out.

      I agree that he needs to shoot less and better, but he hasn’t been hurting the team any more than Lin has been hurting the Rockets or would be hurting us. Not yet, anyway.

    19. JK47

      jon abbey:
      again, if a huge amount of your offense is a two man game and one of those two is putting up fantastic numbers and the other one is putting up pretty bad numbers, it stands to reason that a good bit of the problem is with the way the numbers are registered. Chandler isn’t anywhere near as good an offensive player as his numbers make him look, and Felton isn’t as bad as his make him look.

      I don’t really follow this logic. Tyson Chandler’s offensive numbers have been pretty similar for three years running, and he didn’t need Ray Felton’s “help” to get him those numbers most of the time.

      In 2011 he had a .697 TS% with Jason Kidd and JJ Barea feeding him the ball. in 2012 it was .708 with Toney Douglas, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis and Jeremy Lin feeding him the ball. This year it’s .724 with Ray Felton feeding him the ball.

      It doesn’t seem to matter much who the PG is– Chandler is getting his freakish TS% no matter what scrub passes him the ball. It’s a little higher this year but not by much really. So I don’t see the link between Felton’s awful efficiency and Chandler’s great efficiency. If you made Chris Paul the PG, would Chandler’s efficiency go down? I highly doubt it.

      Correlation does not imply causation.

    20. Hubert Davis

      I thought the notion that felton’s sometimes terrible shot selection, particularly the amount of contested long 2′s, mitigates the TO difference between the two was a valid point.

      Points like “but he was benched for Toney Douglas” don’t hold a lot of water w/o factoring in how well Douglas played. As an off the ball shooter, TD was often very serviceable for us. Just bc Houston decides Harden is a better option to handle the ball for a stretch and they wanted a better spot up shooter/defender playing in tandem w him doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not Lin would be better than Felton as a primary ball hander.

      I’m happy where we are, but there was a nearly unanimous rush to declare Felton is a better fit for this team. As the season progresses, the evidence is waning a bit.

    21. jon abbey

      Kidd has been a big problem in the halfcourt offense in recent games too, probably bigger than Felton. if Kidd’s 3 point shots aren’t falling, as they haven’t been the last few games, he’s really not capable of much else besides the occasional exceptional pass from the perimeter. but he’s not a threat to score once he’s dribbling, with a whopping total of 10 two point FGs all season long, and this has been hurting the halfcourt offense.

    22. Juany8

      JK47: I don’t really follow this logic.Tyson Chandler’s offensive numbers have been pretty similar for three years running, and he didn’t need Ray Felton’s “help” to get him those numbers most of the time.

      In 2011 he had a .697 TS% with Jason Kidd and JJ Barea feeding him the ball.in 2012 it was .708 with Toney Douglas, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis and Jeremy Lin feeding him the ball.This year it’s .724 with Ray Felton feeding him the ball.

      It doesn’t seem to matter much who the PG is– Chandler is getting his freakish TS% no matter what scrub passes him the ball.It’s a little higher this year but not by much really.So I don’t see the link between Felton’s awful efficiency and Chandler’s great efficiency.If you made Chris Paul the PG, would Chandler’s efficiency go down?I highly doubt it.

      Correlation does not imply causation.

      You’re ignoring his increased efficiency in specifically the pick and roll, and his increased number of shot attempts. As I’ve argued before, the value for players like Felton and Melo is in allowing guys like Novak and Chandler to get open to take their shots. Those guys don’t come open while they have the ball in their hands practically ever.

      Felton is taking too many quick shots right now though, almost like he’s trying to make up for his injury by shooting more. It is a bit annoying lately, earlier in the season I really felt like Chandler was in great position for a rebound a lot more often

    23. Hubert Davis

      Juany8:

      The funniest line of the article was saying that Lin’s assist numbers were deceiving since he played off the ball a lot. I guess that Felton spotting up off of Melo post ups doesn’t count as playing off the ball….

      It’s not a knock on Lin that Harden is better in the PnR than him. I think the point was that he might have better assist figures if he was the primary PnR man like Ray is for us. So it isn’t a straight apples to apples comparison when you’re comparing a team’s secondary PnR ball handler to another team’s primary, right? That’s all I took that point as.

    24. jon abbey

      JK47:

      In 2011 he had a .697 TS% with Jason Kidd and JJ Barea feeding him the ball.in 2012 it was .708 with Toney Douglas, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis and Jeremy Lin feeding him the ball.This year it’s .724 with Ray Felton feeding him the ball.

      in 2011 and 2012, Chandler wasn’t a focus of his offense, nowhere near as much as the Felton/Chandler duo has been this year. in the last few weeks, many defenses have chosen to double Melo and stay home on NY’s incredibly prolific three point shooting, taking their chances with the Felton/Chandler pick and roll and essentially turning NY’s offense into a 2 on 2 game quite a bit of the time. my point continues to be that trying to break apart this 2 on 2 offense into Chandler’s component and Felton’s component isn’t nearly as easy as box score stats make it look.

    25. jon abbey

      and I do agree that Felton sometimes shoots too quickly, and of course I wish he would make more, but some of the lineups we’ve been throwing out there lately (especially with Melo out) have been pretty inept offensively with Felton being the only one even close to capable of generating his own shot.

    26. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: It’s not a knock on Lin that Harden is better in the PnR than him.I think the point was that he might have better assist figures if he was the primary PnR man like Ray is for us.So it isn’t a straight apples to apples comparison when you’re comparing a team’s secondary PnR ball handler to another team’s primary, right?That’s all I took that point as.

      But how is playing off the ball in the pick and roll different than playing off the ball on Melo post ups? I get the point, it just ignores what happens on the Knicks, every single player on the Knicks is asked to play off the ball for significant portions of the game, why would you want a player who has NO ability to do that? How does that make him a better fit? This Knicks team has two separate primary options, and it plays at a slower pace than the Rockets, I can actually make an argument that Felton would have more assists just as easily.

      Defense, shooting, and limiting turnovers literally the few things Felton does better than Lin, you can say Lin is a better player but I think it’s been pretty emphatically established that fit isn’t just about the best players. I’m still waiting for that 65 win Miami season every single statistical model figured would happen if you added Wade Bosh and Lebron together.

    27. Juany8

      jon abbey: in 2011 and 2012, Chandler wasn’t a focus of his offense, nowhere near as much as the Felton/Chandler duo has been this year. in the last few weeks, many defenses have chosen to double Melo and stay home on NY’s incredibly prolific three point shooting, taking their chances with the Felton/Chandler pick and roll and essentially turning NY’s offense into a 2 on 2 game quite a bit of the time. my point continues to be that trying to break apart this 2 on 2 offense into Chandler’s component and Felton’s component isn’t nearly as easy as box score stats make it look.

      I’d love to see the offensive efficiency of possessions that start with Felton-Chandler pick and rolls, including the offensive rebounds off those shots. I feel like it would be far more meaningful than their individual numbers

    28. hegotgame

      Anybody watching this Wolves/Thunder game. Love is beasting of course, but j.j. barea is playing out of his mind body and soul! Great game

    29. DRed

      Yeah, the Wolves are very impressive tonight. The players they have make it sound like OKC is playing the Red Army Team.

    30. Juany8

      hegotgame:
      Anybody watching this Wolves/Thunder game. Love is beasting of course, but j.j. barea is playing out of his mind body and soul! Great game

      Yea I’m watching it too, nice win for the Timberwolves, but Reggie jackson is a massive downgrade from Kevin Martin. Westbrook needs to chill the fuck out too, I really do not see the logic behind some of these shots at all….

    31. nicos

      JK47: I don’t really follow this logic.Tyson Chandler’s offensive numbers have been pretty similar for three years running, and he didn’t need Ray Felton’s “help” to get him those numbers most of the time.

      But Chandler’s numbers really AREN’T that similar- he’s averaging 1.31 points per possession this year vs. 1.13 last year. That’s a vast difference- to put that in perspective if you added that .18 to Felton’s numbers he’d have a better ppp# than Chris Paul and just .1 shy of Harden. And I posted these before but they’re worth mentioning again- here are Chandler’s pnr stats- last year they accounted for 31.7 of his possessions used, he scored 1.18 ppp (including turning it over 11.2% of the time). This year, they’re accounting for 37.2% of his possessions used and he’s scoring 1.41 ppp (turning it over just 4.3% of the time). Again, that’s a huge difference- you really don’t think Felton has had anything to do with it? Here’s another interesting one- Chandler averaged 1.07 ppp on offensive rebounds last year, this year it’s skyrocketed to 1.59. How much of this is due to Felton’s “Kobe Assists” I can’t say, but I do think Felton’s consistent penetration (along with better floor spacing with Kidd and probably a whole host of other things) has helped Chandler get cleaner looks on putbacks.

    32. BigBlueAL

      bockadoo:
      Copeland and White to the D League?!I just saw it on Real GM…am I missing something here?WTF?

      That was just for today (and Tuesday) so they could scrimmage (along with Amar’e) with the D League team.

    33. Hubert Davis

      Juany8 you’re right it does ignore that. I don’t think “Lin is better” is any more valid today than “Felton is a better fit” was 4 weeks ago. It’s evolving, though. And factors mentioned in that article, like McHale’s return (which I hadn’t considered) are worth considering.

      Btw did Reggie Miller really just refer to JJ Barea as JJ Guerrero twice in one segment?

    34. nicos

      bockadoo:
      Copeland and White to the D League?!I just saw it on Real GM…am I missing something here?WTF?

      Welcome back Amar’e and Marcus! Not the nicest xmas present for either Copeland or White but I guess the Knicks figured they’re better off getting minutes in the D-League than sitting on the bench in suits while inactive. The question is, is Amar’e back tomorrow or did they just make the move now because Erie was in town and that makes it slightly easier logistically to get them with the team? I’d have certainly liked to keep Cope around until Amar’e was actually going to see real game time.

    35. DRed

      nicos: But Chandler’s numbers really AREN’T that similar- he’s averaging 1.31 points per possession this year vs. 1.13 last year.That’s a vast difference- to put that in perspective if you added that .18 to Felton’s numbers he’d have a better ppp# than Chris Paul and just .1 shy of Harden.And I posted these before but they’re worth mentioning again-here are Chandler’s pnr stats- last year they accounted for 31.7 of his possessions used, he scored 1.18 ppp (including turning it over 11.2% of the time).This year, they’re accounting for 37.2% of his possessions used and he’s scoring 1.41 ppp (turning it over just 4.3% of the time).Again, that’s a huge difference- you really don’t think Felton has had anything to do with it?Here’s another interesting one- Chandler averaged 1.07 ppp on offensive rebounds last year, this year it’s skyrocketed to 1.59.How much of this is due to Felton’s “Kobe Assists” I can’t say, but I do think Felton’s consistent penetration (along with better floor spacing with Kidd and probably a whole host of other things) has helped Chandler get cleaner looks on putbacks.

      How consistent are those PPP numbers year to year?

      Out of curiosity, how did Tyson do with Lin last year?

    36. nicos

      I can’t check a specific stretch of games on synergy- just season totals. Chandler’s TS% actually went down when playing with Lin (.664 vs. .679) and his turnovers were flat (17.1 vs. 17.2) so I’d guess there’s not a whole lot variance between his numbers with Lin vs. the year numbers. His year in Dallas he averaged 1.17ppp so still nowhere near what he’s doing this year. His pnr numbers were close 1.39ppp vs. 1.41 this year but they didn’t run it nearly as often- he had 149 total possessions used in the pnr (19.7% of total) in 74 games while he’s already had 92 in just 25 games this year. All of his numbers were off his last season in Charlotte (as far back as synergy goes) but he had foot issues that whole season and missed a ton of time so I don’t think it’s a fair comparison- even if Felton was his point guard at the time.

    37. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Did the Nuggets really go 0-19 from 3PT tonight? That’s absurdly bad.

      Who wants to blame it on spacing?

    38. BigBlueAL

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Did the Nuggets really go 0-19 from 3PT tonight? That’s absurdly bad.

      Who wants to blame it on spacing?

      They finished 0 for 22 from 3pt range (an NBA record for most 3pt misses w/o a make). Apparently they scored 2 points outside the paint the entire game!!

    39. DRed

      BigBlueAL: They finished 0 for 22 from 3pt range (an NBA record for most 3pt misses w/o a make).Apparently they scored 2 points outside the paint the entire game!!

      The crazy thing is they only lost by 8

    40. Juany8

      Hubert Davis:
      Juany8 you’re right it does ignore that.I don’t think “Lin is better” is any more valid today than “Felton is a better fit” was 4 weeks ago.It’s evolving, though.And factors mentioned in that article, like McHale’s return (which I hadn’t considered) are worth considering.

      Btw did Reggie Miller really just refer to JJ Barea as JJ Guerrero twice in one segment?

      To be perfectly fair I think Lin is going to have a much better career than Felton has had, I just think Lin has too many little flaws in his game for a team that needs to win now and doesn’t have time to wait for it’s starting guard to adjust. I think Felton is an average player an a solid producer for what the Knicks got him, and he happens to have several skills that are very important for the Knicks. I’d rather have someone like Dragic or Lowry, but there’s a reason those players make 3 to 4 times more in general.

      I do think McHale is a pretty bad coach, so I don’t see that as some improvement lol.

    41. Juany8

      DRed: The crazy thing is they only lost by 8

      This sounds nice but the Trail Blazers didn’t have LeMarcus Aldridge. The Nuggets were playing a scrub team and lost. Damian Lilliard was awful too. How terrible do you have to be at shooting as a team to even have a game like this? They’re one of the worst shooting teams in the league already

    42. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Did the Nuggets really go 0-19 from 3PT tonight? That’s absurdly bad.

      Who wants to blame it on spacing?

      Contested shots don’t exist. Shots at the free throw line are converted at the same rate as free throws.

      You’re a brilliant man.

    43. knicknyk

      People seriously believe Felton is good defensively? Do I need to bring up the synergy defensive numbers to prove that he is in fact terrible defensively & much worse than Lin is. Let’s be honest here Feltons defense is atrocious.

    44. johnno

      Z-man: Why were people so quick to cut Lin slack for being injured last year, and yet now that Felton is playing with bone bruises on both hands, no one brings it up as a possible reason for his shooting numbers going down?

      I couldn’t agree more. Felton is a tough guy who never complains about injuries. He should whine a lot and then, instead of criticizing him, people would be carrying on about what a “warrior” he is.

    45. jon abbey

      here’s one stunningly stupid example of overvaluing efficiency:

      http://hoopspeak.com/2012/12/when-lebron-james-chooses-stats-over-team/

      “LeBron James knows that his true value isn’t conveyed in raw point totals; It’s conveyed in efficiency. He wants you to know that, and two or three halfcourt makes per season isn’t worth clouding the message.”

      I sure hope this isn’t really why LeBron does this, because of course taking a shot at the end of a quarter is always smarter than holding onto the ball. goddamn, I hate the burgeoning cult of efficiency.

    46. Nick C.

      Yes I know what you mean. I for one love the person at work who fails to read the notes in the computer or open a file before asking. I love the fellow that wants a rundown of the eurostyled sizes at Starbucks, then after the order is perovided starts to open the wallet all while standing in front of the register. ah the love of the freewheeling devil may care fellow and fellete long may they reign. The Duane Reade cashier that counts the money once out of the drawer, once in her hand and again while handing it to you …

    47. jon abbey

      is that an answer to me? I was being basketball-specific, although I’ll go toe to toe with anyone on general misanthropy.

    48. johnno

      jon abbey: “LeBron James knows that his true value isn’t conveyed in raw point totals; It’s conveyed in efficiency. He wants you to know that, and two or three halfcourt makes per season isn’t worth clouding the message.”

      If the guy who wrote this article is serious, he really should lose his press credentials. This just might be the dumbest thing that I have ever read. And if LeBron really feels this way, he might be the dumbest human being on the planet. If LeBron’s PER, WP, WS or whatever other acronym there is for advanced stats were to drop a tenth or a hundredth of a point or so, is there a single human being who would argue that he isn’t “efficient” or valuable? Even the harshest LeBron critics will acknowledge that he is probably the best and, at worst, the second or third best basketball player (and probably the single best athlete) in the world. Yeesh.

    49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Contested shots don’t exist. Shots at the free throw line are converted at the same rate as free throws.

      You’re a brilliant man.

      You’d have to be downright retarded to think that an NBA team would go 0-22 from 3PT primarily because their spacing was bad.

      This is called a statistical anomaly, and it’s never happened before.

    50. Nick C.

      jon abbey: is that an answer to me? I was being basketball-specific, although I’ll go toe to toe with anyone on general misanthropy.

      Sorry I should have prefaced it with your name. What’s so bad, within reason, with valuing efficiency? You don’t want to go back to the days of Isiah when “athletic” “handle” and other such measures were state of the art. I think there needs to be a balance which this team has for the most part.

    51. briand

      jon abbey: here’s one stunningly stupid example of overvaluing efficiency:http://hoopspeak.com/2012/12/when-lebron-james-chooses-stats-over-team/“LeBron James knows that his true value isn’t conveyed in raw point totals; It’s conveyed in efficiency. He wants you to know that, and two or three halfcourt makes per season isn’t worth clouding the message.”I sure hope this isn’t really why LeBron does this, because of course taking a shot at the end of a quarter is always smarter than holding onto the ball. goddamn, I hate the burgeoning cult of efficiency.

      This has nothing to do with “overvaluing effeciency.” The more efficient play in that situation is to shoot the half court shot. The 1% (or whatever small number it is) chance of making the shot and getting 3 points, is infinitely more efficient than just not shooting and thus guaranteeing a 0% chance of scoring. This is not “overvaluing effeciency,” it is failing to understanding what efficiency is.

    52. briand

      briand: This has nothing to do with “overvaluing effeciency.” The more efficient play in that situation is to shoot the half court shot. The 1% (or whatever small number it is) chance of making the shot and getting 3 points, is infinitely more efficient than just not shooting and thus guaranteeing a 0% chance of scoring. This is not “overvaluing effeciency,” it is failing to understanding what efficiency is.

      I also like how the article says “Actually, I would argue that this buzzer clutching is indicative of a positive development, a development not so divorced from John Hollinger’s Memphis Grizzlies hire.”

      I can say with 100% certainty that Hollinger would not support this line of thinking whatsoever.

    53. jon abbey

      Nick C.: Sorry I should have prefaced it with your name. What’s so bad, within reason, with valuing efficiency? You don’t want to go back to the days of Isiah when “athletic” “handle” and other such measures were state of the art.I think there needs to be a balance which this team has for the most part.

      it’s the “within reason” part, the citing TS% with no interest in context, the seemingly deeply held belief that there’s no way a 4-10 game could be better than a 4-8 game (w/identical FTs and turnovers), the idea that Tyson Chandler is a dominant offensive player when in reality he is useless on the majority of possessions on that end…

    54. Juany8

      briand: This has nothing to do with “overvaluing effeciency.”The more efficient play in that situation is to shoot the half court shot.The 1% (or whatever small number it is) chance of making the shot and getting 3 points, is infinitely more efficient than just not shooting and thus guaranteeing a 0% chance of scoring.This is not “overvaluing effeciency,” it is failing to understanding what efficiency is.

      I love this post, if a player is more concerned with collecting stats than playing winning basketball then he is not embracing a true analytical mindset. Poppovich is undoubtedly the best coach in the league at the money ball approach of finding undervalued assets, and he HATES statistics. Hell Jeff Van Gundy made a point at the Sloan Conference last year that he often lied to players about their statistics to get them to play a certain way.

      If you bring me an advanced, camera based model that you can use to compare a shot to the expected historical efficiency of a shot in that situation (shot clock, location, location of defense) then sure, let’s talk about offensive efficiency. If a guy look a cherry picked transition layup and missed a half court shot at the buzzer, I don’t want to hear that he went 1 for 2 like that means anything

    55. Juany8

      jon abbey: it’s the “within reason” part, the citing TS% with no interest in context, the seemingly deeply held belief that there’s no way a 4-10 game could be better than a 4-8 game (w/identical FTs and turnovers), the idea that Tyson Chandler is a dominant offensive player when in reality he is useless on the majority of possessions on that end…

      Let’s not get carried away with useless, his screen setting and diving does open up space, even when he’s not in the primary pick and roll. The offensive rebounding also has some value obviously, especially since he’s particularly good at putting them back (an offensive rebound by Chandler is a hell of a lot more valuable than one by Reggie Evans)

      I obviously agree that he’s not a superstar on the offensive end, but he has a particular skill set that’s both rare and hard to guard in today’s NBA, and it allows him to be featured as a prominent part of the offense. He’s an above average offensive player and an elite defender (when he wants to be) that makes him a star, and I can understand for picking him as the 1a to Melo’s 1b. It’s the people that try to argue that Melo is actually number 3 and Chandler is the number 1 in the whole fucking league that are the issue.

      As far as efficiency, I don’t think efficiency itself is overvalued as much as numbers are. The problem with statistics is that they’re used in misleading ways, THCJ comes in here and says Melo is worse than Ronnie Brewer as if he were reciting facts about the atmosphere. Statistics often pretend to be both an objective and self sufficient way of discovering truth, but that’s simply wrong. You have to build a conceptual, causal model of what is happening then test it using numbers. You can’t just throw up numbers against each other without having a previously established and tested hypothesis.

    56. Nick C.

      jon abbey: it’s the “within reason” part, the citing TS% with no interest in context, the seemingly deeply held belief that there’s no way a 4-10 game could be better than a 4-8 game (w/identical FTs and turnovers), the idea that Tyson Chandler is a dominant offensive player when in reality he is useless on the majority of possessions on that end…

      I used get annoyed with people equating efficient with great offensive player too, back in the early days of David Lee.

    57. ethsurken

      jon abbey:
      I sure hope this isn’t really why LeBron does this, because of course taking a shot at the end of a quarter is always smarter than holding onto the ball. goddamn, I hate the burgeoning cult of efficiency.

      That’s not the “burgeoning cult of efficiency.” That’s just dumb. And a strawman. Also it’s weird how Chandler can be useless on the majority of possessions and also the center of the pick and roll attack that the offense is supposedly based on. He is now scoring at a decent volume of about 15 points per 36 (which is 2 less points on 9 less shots than Felton per 36).

    58. jon abbey

      fine, maybe I overstated the Chandler thing a bit, but I am really sick and tired of seeing him take the ball 15 feet from the hoop and not even consider doing anything but hand it to someone else on the perimeter a few seconds later. I’m not advocating forcing things he’s not good at, I am advocating not giving him the ball out there because it only wastes time off the 24 second clock for no good purpose.

    59. Frank

      jon abbey: I’m not advocating forcing things he’s not good at, I am advocating not giving him the ball out there because it only wastes time off the 24 second clock for no good purpose.

      Really, you’re advocating that he get better at things other than Tyson-smashing. I happen to agree. If he could even hit 45% of 15ft jumpers 1-2 times/game, I think it would really help the offense even if his otherworldly TS% would suffer a bit. He also REALLY needs to become proficient at a couple of simple post moves. I’m ok with him passing the ball from 15ft, but NOT ok with him not knowing what to do when a PG switches onto him and he can’t even make a baby hook from 5 feet over a guy 1 foot shorter than him.

    60. jon abbey

      Frank: Really, you’re advocating that he get better at things other than Tyson-smashing.I happen to agree. If he could even hit 45% of 15ft jumpers 1-2 times/game, I think it would really help the offense even if his otherworldly TS% would suffer a bit.He also REALLY needs to become proficient at a couple of simple post moves.I’m ok with him passing the ball from 15ft, but NOT ok with him not knowing what to do when a PG switches onto him and he can’t even make a baby hook from 5 feet over a guy 1 foot shorter than him.

      yes, well said. what’s odd is that he’s a very good FT shooter, but when he gets the ball around the FT line, he never even considers shooting it (he did a few times early on, but I don’t think he has for weeks). to make it all worse, he’s taken to holding the ball with his back to the basket on the perimeter, making him even less of a threat to pass/dribble/shoot than he would be if he was just facing the other direction.

    61. Nick C.

      Frank: Really, you’re advocating that he get better at things other than Tyson-smashing. I happen to agree. If he could even hit 45% of 15ft jumpers 1-2 times/game, I think it would really help the offense even if his otherworldly TS% would suffer a bit. He also REALLY needs to become proficient at a couple of simple post moves. I’m ok with him passing the ball from 15ft, but NOT ok with him not knowing what to do when a PG switches onto him and he can’t even make a baby hook from 5 feet over a guy 1 foot shorter than him.

      It sounds good, particularly the lack of a simple post move or two. But 45% from 10-15 feet puts him above this season’s NBA average which is 40% as per Hoops Data (though that includes all shots lumped together from the uncontested to the one footed double teamed step backs with the clock winding down). Perhaps he can manage 29% from three and jack them up unashamedly then he could be called a floor spacer like Sheed.

    62. Juany8

      I really think a player’s offensive production needs to be quantified in more ways than a single number. As tempting as it is to just throw out a number that looks like it sort of measures offensive efficiency, the truth is that offensive players should be graded on their ability to finish shots and their ability to change the team’s shot distribution. Novak is an awesome shooter, but he does very, very little to actually change the distribution of the team’s shots. He doesn’t have that much influence on when he’s actually going to be allowed to take a good 3, even if he comes open somebody has to pass it to him.

      The people who tend to have the greatest impact on shot distribution are generally the people that have the ball in their hands often. This is a quantifiable number, you can very obviously tell a guy like Steve Nash has the ball in his hands a lot more than Derrick Fisher. The more a player has the ball in his hands, the more he influences the shots a team gets for good and bad.

      Now there’s some misconception about how that works. When Ryan Anderson is open for 3 and has the ball, the guy who passed it to him has very little influence on whether he’ll make the shot or not. Kobe doesn’t magically make his teammates shot better off his passes as opposed to Pau Gasol’s. Thus as long as a “finisher” like Anderson or Novak is taking the same type of shots, their efficiency won’t change much, even across different teams.

      What a creator does is affect how often a guy like Novak and Anderson gets his preferred shots. Players like that need to get open, and they need someone to pass it to them. A creator can’t magically make Landry Fields learn how to shoot though, it’s very possible for a guy like Carmelo to get his team great looks only for them to blow them. That’s why the ideal team has a good distribution of creators and finishers. Also why the best offensive players are Durant and Chris Paul, they’re incredible at both

    63. Will the Thrill

      Why did this post get totally ignored? How different are they?

      knicknyk:
      People seriously believe Felton is good defensively? Do I need to bring up the synergy defensive numbers to prove that he is in fact terrible defensively & much worse than Lin is. Let’s be honest here Feltons defense is atrocious.

    64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: THCJ comes in here and says Melo is worse than Ronnie Brewer as if he were reciting facts about the atmosphere.

      Fuck right off with that twaddle.

      My argument is that Brewer at $3M is worth way more than Carmelo at $20M. Faried at $1.7M is worth way more than Amar’e at $20M. Or at all.

    65. briand

      jon abbey: fine, maybe I overstated the Chandler thing a bit, but I am really sick and tired of seeing him take the ball 15 feet from the hoop and not even consider doing anything but hand it to someone else on the perimeter a few seconds later. I’m not advocating forcing things he’s not good at, I am advocating not giving him the ball out there because it only wastes time off the 24 second clock for no good purpose.

      Would it be awesome if, in addition to all of the other things Chandler does well that help you win a bball game, that he also could knock down 15 footers. Obviously, yes. But, outside of Lebron, nobody can do everything.

      Chandler has become one of the best P & R roll men in all of basketball. This skill is incredibly important to the Knicks offense. In addition to the Tyson Smashes, he also gets fouled a lot (and shoots a decent FT %), and opens things up for guys on the wings b/c weak side defenders have to pay attention to him when he rolls.

    66. briand

      jon abbey: fine, maybe I overstated the Chandler thing a bit, but I am really sick and tired of seeing him take the ball 15 feet from the hoop and not even consider doing anything but hand it to someone else on the perimeter a few seconds later. I’m not advocating forcing things he’s not good at, I am advocating not giving him the ball out there because it only wastes time off the 24 second clock for no good purpose.

      Also, there is a reason that they give the ball to Chandler at the top of the key: it draws the other team’s best rim protector (who generally will be guarding Chandler) away from the rim as well. Its why lots of NBA teams run offensive sets where they bring their big guy out to the top of the key, even if that guy isn’t a threat to knock down a shot from out there.

    67. Frank

      briand: Also, there is a reason that they give the ball to Chandler at the top of the key: it draws the other team’s best rim protector (who generally will be guarding Chandler) away from the rim as well.Its why lots of NBA teams run offensive sets where they bring their big guy out to the top of the key, even if that guy isn’t a threat to knock down a shot from out there.

      That’s true of course, except that Tyson’s defender doesn’t need to respect him at all there – he can sag all the way down to the restricted area for seconds at a time before coming out occasionally to avoid the 3 seconds. If Tyson was any threat at all to make a shot from there, then it would really draw the other team’s rim protector far away. That’s what D’Antoni used to do with Shawne Williams when he would play the 5 against Dwight Howard, which worked way better than one would have thought.

      But no question Tyson is a vital cog in this offense, low usage% notwithstanding. Usage totally underestimates how much his presence compromises the defense and “creates shots” for others even while not showing up in Tyson’s box score.

    68. jon abbey

      briand: Also, there is a reason that they give the ball to Chandler at the top of the key: it draws the other team’s best rim protector (who generally will be guarding Chandler) away from the rim as well.Its why lots of NBA teams run offensive sets where they bring their big guy out to the top of the key, even if that guy isn’t a threat to knock down a shot from out there.

      but it doesn’t really do that, the other team’s best rim protector ignores Chandler out there, as well he should. it’s not just knocking down a shot, Chandler isn’t even a threat to make a pass to a cutting Felton (has he done this once all season? not that I recall).

    69. Juany8

      jon abbey: but it doesn’t really do that, the other team’s best rim protector ignores Chandler out there, as well he should. it’s not just knocking down a shot, Chandler isn’t even a threat to make a pass to a cutting Felton (has he done this once all season? not that I recall).

      That’s one of the key issues that the Amar’e-Chandler pairing has, neither is a good passer in any sense of the word. Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol or even Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan work better because at least one of the bigs in the pairing is a great passer, and they can play some high low game. Chandler and Amar’e are just so redundant on offense, Amar’e has a bit more diversity to his game but he’s not really elite at anything except getting to the rim.

    70. jon abbey

      yeah, the media keeps talking about how Melo and Amar’e will mesh, but we know that the issue is much more Amar’e and Chandler.

    71. ruruland

      Juany8: That’s one of the key issues that the Amar’e-Chandler pairing has, neither is a good passer in any sense of the word. Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol or even Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan work better because at least one of the bigs in the pairing is a great passer, and they can play some high low game. Chandler and Amar’e are just so redundant on offense, Amar’e has a bit more diversity to his game but he’s not really elite at anything except getting to the rim.

      Gasol and Randolph aren’t pnr players, so they are less involved in continuity plays….

      Neither guy comes close to being capable of catching the ball on a curl 17-feet from the basket, dipping their shoulders and finishing like Amar’e.

      those kinds of plays from Amar’e greatly reduce the need for one of them to be a passer.

      Amar’e and Shaq didn’t really play a high low game. Shaq had his post-ups and high onr, and Amar’e played on the weakside.

      Amar’e is basically going to play the David West role in New Orleans (with Chandler and Paul), except he’s going to be a lot better at it, because he’s superior in every aspect offensively.

      Amar’e has played a lot more weakside offense with non-skilled bigs (and primary middle pnr players) than people seem to remember.

    72. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      yeah, the media keeps talking about how Melo and Amar’e will mesh, but we know that the issue is much more Amar’e and Chandler.

      Actually, the issue was point guard play, not Chandler.

      Amar’e posted a .620 ts the final 20 games of the year in large part because his shot distribution totally changed. It changed because of the point guards.

    73. Frank

      ruruland: Actually, the issue was point guard play, not Chandler.

      Amar’e posted a .620 ts the final 20 games of the year in large part because his shot distribution totally changed. It changed because of the point guards.

      yeah, I thought Amare looked quite good in March and April. Hoopdata shot distribution basically says what Ruru said – 1-1.5 more shot attempts at the rim and 2 fewer long J’s per game in Mar/Apr compared with prior. His TS was right around 60 for that period of time, and would have been much better if he hadn’t shot uncharacteristically poorly from the FT line during that time (~66%) on 6 FT’s per game.

      If anything, Melo’s #s seem to get worse when Amare plays, although it’s a small sample. that in itself is a good reason to separate the two.

      For the first few weeks, it’ll be easy to integrate Amare because Woodson can easily limit his minutes in the name of getting him back into basketball shape. Bring him off the bench for last 2 min of 1st/3rd through 6 min of 2nd/4th. Can play him as C without Chandler at times with Melo at the 4 for a few minutes here or there, getting him ~20-24 min/game to start with. By then, hopefully they’ll have enough practices together to figure out how to have these guys play together. 1/5 high PNR to 3/4 side PNR looked good in preseason.

    74. ruruland

      Frank:

      I’ve actually looked at his efg% (or projected TS% based on career ft rate) with each Chandler and Melo and each point guard last year.

      The results shouldn’t surprise anyone;he was actually quite good with either Davis or Lin on the floor along with Chandler.

      I’m finishing up looking at each play type with Chandler on the floor vs pg on the floor via Synergy.

      I’ve also looked at his TS% at different usages over the last two years. Not surprisingly, he’s very efficient over 30% usage.

      30% usage is a really good indicator he’s taking tough isolation jump shots, or bad perimeter shots.

      He won’t need to take many of those now.

      For one, the offense is much more patient than it was under MDA.

      Melo is taking much better shots because he trusts he’ll get them. Kidd is a big part of this of course.

      I expect this to happen to Amar’e, too, and it should have a dramatic effect.

      The guy is still a force. If you actually go through and watch all of his plays from 2009-10 (yeah, I’m a freak), his explosion actually hadn’t changed all that much last year, and I actually think that we saw flashes of ’07-’08 Amar’e after he lost the weight.

      This wasn’t all that long ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eNVL5c5WRs

      AndFrank, watch Amar’e cuts the last 3 years to get an idea of what his role in the offense will be on the middle pnr with Chandler.

      I think he’s better flashing to the elbow/wing area than he is at middle pnr.

    75. ruruland

      It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Amar’e had a .620+ ts this year if his usage is more around 24-27 and he gets 12-15 minutes a night to feast on second units.

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