Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, October 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Apr 25 2013)

  • [New York Post] While Anthony stays quiet, Woodson can’t ignore critics (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 04:47:14 -0500)
    It isn’t necessarily fair, but fairness goes out the window and into the wind on the first and 15th of every month, when the checks clear. This is professional sports, and the men who populate them don’t play only for the love of the game, and so they…

  • [New York Post] J.R.’s dad gives Woody big props for turning son into shooting star (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 04:37:56 -0500)
    Earl Smith, J.R.’s father who served as his first coach growing up in Central Jersey, gave all the credit to his son’s grand emergence this season to Mike Woodson and took a swipe at his former coach in Denver, George Karl, during a wide-ranging interview yesterday.
    Smith…

  • [New York Post] Woodson: Silence Celt fans (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 04:38:15 -0500)
    Calming the beast inside Boston’s TD Garden is coach Mike Woodson’s biggest challenge as the Knicks face the Celtics Friday night in Game 3 of their playoff series.
    It’s the Celtics’ first home game since last Monday’s Boston Marathon bombing. The mayhem in the arena will…

  • [New York Post] Rivers: Celtics need to step it up (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 04:37:46 -0500)
    Boston coach Doc Rivers has seen the exact sort of frenzied desperation his Celtics need tomorrow in Game 3 to maintain any realistic hope of staying alive in the Eastern Conference first round playoff series.
    Yes, he has seen that display already in the series. The problem is, he has…

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Knicks take emotional test (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 05:19:54 GMT)
    For a playoff road opener, the Knicks sure know how to pick their spots. They have to play Friday night, in Boston, in the Celtics’ first home game since the Boston Marathon bombings. Yikes.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Mike defends Carmelo (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 04:01:35 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony has replaced LeBron James as the NBA’s most scrutinized superstar and will hold that title until he wins an NBA title.    

  • [New York Times] Rockets Up Intensity, but Lose 105-102 to Thunder (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 07:50:45 GMT)
    Russell Westbrook slammed his hand on the scorer’s table in anger. He had been slowing down to call a timeout when rookie Patrick Beverley came careening in to try for a steal and crashed into Westbrook’s knee.    

  • [New York Times] Parker Leads Spurs to 102-91 Win Over Lakers (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 05:26:28 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs kept insisting the playoffs were a new season and that their woeful finish to the regular season was not as grave as it appeared.    

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Thunder Edge Rockets to Take 2-0 Lead (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 03:35:15 GMT)
    Behind 29 points each from Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City won at home against Houston after losing a 15-point fourth-quarter lead.    

  • [New York Times] George Leads Pacers Past Hawks 113-98 for 2-0 Lead (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 03:20:46 GMT)
    Indiana had everything covered Wednesday night.    

  • [New York Times] Thunder Respond to Houston Rally, Win 105-102 (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 03:14:42 GMT)
    Russell Westbrook relishes the moments when an opponent challenges him and his Oklahoma City Thunder teammates and it becomes time to respond.    

  • [New York Times] Against Bulls, Nets Keep Searching for Right Combinations (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 02:55:37 GMT)
    The Nets, with Coach P. J. Carlesimo, have revamped their lineup and rotation throughout the season, and that strategy is continuing against the Bulls in the playoffs.    

  • [New York Times] Knicks Have Celtics’ Numbers: Up 2, 2 to Go (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 02:35:08 GMT)
    The Celtics will be playing their first home game since the Boston Marathon bombing when they face the Knicks in Game 3 on Thursday night.    

  • 184 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Apr 25 2013)

    1. mcliff05

      Good article in the Post about Melo and his detractors. I especially liked this paragraph:

      “And beware: Everything bad that’s ever happened in the fair city of Denver has been laid at Melo’s feet, most notably that he led the Nuggets out of the first round only once (although you’d swear it was Melo covering Jacoby Jones at the end of the Broncos-Ravens playoff game, since everything is his fault). Well, the Nuggets are in a big pickle now in their series with the David Lee-free Warriors; if they lose, it’ll be fun to see how that’s his fault, too, and not George Karl’s.”

      Its true, I think Denver Management should be given more credit for making and keeping Denver a playoff team for a decade. The best (and most self-serving) thing Karl did was to paint Melo as uncoachable. Who are the old-time basketball writers going to side with? The old-school coach that came back from cancer (not dismissing just explaining how sympathetic his situation was/is) or the young, tattoed, multi-millionaire with an ugly playoff record. The Knicks just need to keep winning and tune out the attention seeking trolls.

    2. Frank

      er:
      Like the fact that woody has his players back, unlike the previous coach

      to be fair D’Antoni did go on that long rant about how Jeffries was underappreciated. But he certainly didn’t do that for Melo (probably didn’t deserve it then!)

    3. DS

      “Thunder Respond to Houston Rally, Win 105-102″

      Fire Scott Brooks. What does Sam Presti, supposedly the shrewdest exec., owe this guy? Brooks’s credentials are nice and bloated now, he’ll find another job. Plus Jax is available and would be a great match.

      As a Knicks fan, I would appreciate somebody doing something to prevent a Miami dynasty.

    4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      DS:
      “Thunder Respond to Houston Rally, Win 105-102?

      Fire Scott Brooks.What does Sam Presti, supposedly the shrewdest exec., owe this guy? Brooks’s credentials are nice and bloated now, he’ll find another job.Plus Jax is available and would be a great match.

      As a Knicks fan, I would appreciate somebody doing something to prevent a Miami dynasty.

      If Jackson wants to coach the Thunder, they’d be absolute fools to not bring him in.

    5. DS

      Frank: to be fair D’Antoni did go on that long rant about how Jeffries was underappreciated. But he certainly didn’t do that for Melo (probably didn’t deserve it then!)

      Exactly. So Woody to some extent demonstrates that as a coach you get players’ backs first (whether they deserve it or not), and then they’ll play for you.

    6. thenamestsam

      I can not fully express how hilarious I find it that Charles Barkley thinks he has what it takes to be an NBA GM. This is a guy who has a whole segment at the beginning of each year devoted to the fact that he doesn’t know which teams prominent NBA role players are on. Man, I wish Phoenix would give him the job (which, unfortunately, they won’t) just so the world could get to watch him crash and burn.

    7. er

      Frank: to be fair D’Antoni did go on that long rant about how Jeffries was underappreciated. But he certainly didn’t do that for Melo (probably didn’t deserve it then!)

      well ill say this, at the begininng of the lockout year we started with melo at point foward, and TD at point. Melo tried to run the show like dantoni asked and was avg something like 5 assists a game. So he was doing what his coach asked, just not well. Then MDA basically caused the whole melo vs lin situation by basically relagating melo to a role player and saying he would ride lin like sacratariat so eff him

    8. flossy

      er: Then MDA basically caused the whole melo vs lin situation by basically relagating melo to a role player and saying he would ride lin like sacratariat so eff him

      What are you talking about? The “ride him like Secretariat comment” came while Melo was injured and Lin was torching every team we played. MDA never “relegated Melo to being a role player,” he just stopped having Melo bring the ball up and initiating every set play once we discovered we actually had a competent PG on the bench.

      If Melo hadn’t refused to execute the offensive sets, he’d have had plenty of open looks off the catch and opportunities to drive against rotating defense. But instead of starting each play on the wing he just camped out in the high post and called for the ball, making it impossible the actually run the high PnR.

      So Melo hated playing point-forward (and sucked at it), and then refused to actually participate in MDA’s standard offense once we found a PG (ironically, an offense system in which Melo proceeded to thrive the minute MDA quit, because he actually ran the plays correctly instead of sabotaging them out of spite). And don’t even get me started on his defense. Why would any coach defend a player who plays bad and then sulks when other players play well?!

    9. d-mar

      thenamestsam:
      I can not fully express how hilarious I find it that Charles Barkley thinks he has what it takes to be an NBA GM. This is a guy who has a whole segment at the beginning of each year devoted to the fact that he doesn’t know which teams prominent NBA role players are on. Man, I wish Phoenix would give him the job (which, unfortunately, they won’t) just so the world could get to watch him crash and burn.

      As a GM, Charles Barkley would be “turrible”

      I also like how he’s backtracking on his “the Nets are better than the Knicks” statements by saying he didn’t know the Knicks were going to get K-Mart, as if that’s the whole difference between the 2 teams.

    10. Hubert Davis

      DS:
      What does Sam Presti, supposedly the shrewdest exec., owe this guy?

      This is the same Sam Presti who traded Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka-Jeff Green for Durant-Westbrook-Ibaka-Kevin Martin-Kendrick Perkins.

      He’s an overrated executive. “The Presti Model” was never anything more than “luck into Kevin Durant.”

    11. Hubert Davis

      d-mar:
      I also like how he’s backtracking on his “the Nets are better than the Knicks” statements by saying he didn’t know the Knicks were going to get K-Mart, as if that’s the whole difference between the 2 teams.

      Has that been his thing now? I tuned out that channel ages ago. Now I focus all my hate on the even dumber ESPN crew. Would it kill a producer somewhere to get a smart person like Zach Lowe on on one of these things???

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Hubert Davis: Has that been his thing now?I tuned out that channel ages ago.Now I focus all my hate on the even dumber ESPN crew.Would it kill a producer somewhere to get a smart person like Zach Lowe on on one of these things???

      Say what you want about the “advanced” stats, but TV producers don’t even trust viewers enough to give them eFG% or TS%. It’s only recently that I’ve heard people like Reggie Miller say the word “efficiency” during a broadcast.

      And let’s not forget that Charles Barkley wanted to be a Representative. Why can’t he just be happy being one of the best forwards of all-time?

    13. elikint

      A) At this point the question is 4,5 or 6 games for this series. But the success of the season will be judged on how seriously we threaten Miami, or manage to beat them. To do that — or maybe even to beat the physical Pacers, we’ll need both kmart and Chandler. So why isn’t there more reporting right now on what’s going on with him — any clues out there? A sportwriter said its either rust or injury — key question…

      B) Could be fun next year to code the grades after games into a database (anyone know php?) so during the season you could look up each players grades over the previous games…

    14. Hubert Davis

      Btw, Jeremy Lin might have lost his job last night. Patrick Beverley was really good. Houston was a really bad call away from pulling that out (Perkins, as any cheating Celtic would, literally held Chandler Parsons’ arm – with replays showing a ref looking right at him – to prevent him from closing out on Shefalosa three that ended the game). Good game. Could still be a series now that the Rockets figured our their best 5.

    15. er

      flossy: don’t even get me started on his defense. Why would any coach defend a player who plays bad and then sulks when other players play well?!

      i can understand where you are coming from except for this. What does this statement mean?

    16. johnlocke

      Quote from JR’s Dad on JR driving to the basket more — interesting he brings up Melo too:

      “He’s so athletic, he could go to the basket anytime he wanted it,’’ Earl said. “But he got fouled and referees never called it. He was getting beat up and getting tired of it. I’m not bashing referees. But they get caught up watching and not reffing. I always thought that about him and Melo, too. There’s some guys you can’t even touch. Not them. Maybe it’s because everybody hates New York.’’

    17. er

      flossy: What are you talking about? The “ride him like Secretariat comment” came while Melo was injured and Lin was torching every team we played. MDA never “relegated Melo to being a role player,” he just stopped having Melo bring the ball up and initiating every set play once we discovered we actually had a competent PG on the bench. If Melo hadn’t refused to execute the offensive sets, he’d have had plenty of open looks off the catch and opportunities to drive against rotating defense. But instead of starting each play on the wing he just camped out in the high post and called for the ball, making it impossible the actually run the high PnR. So Melo hated playing point-forward (and sucked at it), and then refused to actually participate in MDA’s standard offense once we found a PG (ironically, an offense system in which Melo proceeded to thrive the minute MDA quit, because he actually ran the plays correctly instead of sabotaging them out of spite). And don’t even get me started on his defense. Why would any coach defend a player who plays bad and then sulks when other players play well?!

      Also there were reports of Lin sabotaging plays for melo so which is true?

    18. DS

      Hubert Davis: This is the same Sam Presti who traded Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka-Jeff Green for Durant-Westbrook-Ibaka-Kevin Martin-Kendrick Perkins.

      He’s an overrated executive.“The Presti Model” was never anything more than “luck into Kevin Durant.”

      That’s a little extreme. I agree that the Durant lottery was extremely lucky, that he believes in Westbrook a little too much, and that Jeff Green looks better than Perkins today. I don’t think, however, that he undervalued Harden nor took a bad gamble on the Perkins trade at the time (it looked pretty smart at the time actually)… rescinding the Wilcox-for-Chandler trade may have been his biggest goof actually!
      http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3917505

      I think they have done a good job collecting picks during his tenure. They will have the #11 pick this year or better. They have made good picks and make use of the NBDL in a way that no one else seems to be doing.

    19. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis: This is the same Sam Presti who traded Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka-Jeff Green for Durant-Westbrook-Ibaka-Kevin Martin-Kendrick Perkins.

      He’s an overrated executive.“The Presti Model” was never anything more than “luck into Kevin Durant.”

      This is a pretty simplistic way of looking at things. They obviously could never have kept both of Jeff Green and Harden. It’s not clear whether they could have kept either (assuming they kept Ibaka) had they managed their cap situation differently. He may have lucked into Durant, but he nailed the Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka picks – none of which was any kind of no-brainer at the time and while it took a while they honestly basically hit on the Jeff Green pick as well (best players picked after him were Noah, Afflalo and Marc Gasol in the 2nd round).

      Aside from his truly exceptional draft record we can quibble with the trades a little. The Perkins move was a questionable one. In my opinion focusing on beating one opponent (Lakers in this case) over just making your team the best you can is rarely smart. On the other hand trading Jeff Green made sense and a defensive big was a natural target for them. Perkins has regressed since then and the trade looks mostly bad. The Harden trade is still very early to judge. Have to see what the pick and young players they got back become. Did they get enough? Maybe not, but suggesting that Presti just chose Martin over Harden is disingenuous.

    20. thenamestsam

      DS: That’s a little extreme.I agree that the Durant lottery was extremely lucky, that he believes in Westbrook a little too much, and that Jeff Green looks better than Perkins today.I don’t think, however, that he undervalued Harden nor took a bad gamble on the Perkins trade at the time (it looked pretty smart at the time actually)… rescinding the Wilcox-for-Chandler trade may have been his biggest goof actually!
      http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3917505

      I think they have done a good job collecting picks during his tenure.They will have the #11 pick this year or better.They have made good picks and make use of the NBDL in a way that no one else seems to be doing.

      The Chandler thing looks like a big miss from today’s stnadpoint, but keep in mind that after he failed his physical he played about 3 weeks before going down with an injury (missed like a month). The next year he only played 51 games (27 starts) for Charlotte before discovering his health and taking his game to the next level with Dallas. So it’s worth remembering that for a year and a half after the decision to turn it down looked somewhat prescient. Chandler was a mediocre center who couldn’t stay healthy. He had a major renaissance after that, but I find it hard to give Presti too much crap for not foreseeing that 1.5 years in the future.

    21. DS

      thenamestsam: The Chandler thing looks like a big miss from today’s stnadpoint, but keep in mind that after he failed his physical he played about 3 weeks before going down with an injury (missed like a month). The next year he only played 51 games (27 starts) for Charlotte before discovering his health and taking his game to the next level with Dallas. So it’s worth remembering that for a year and a half after the decision to turn it down looked somewhat prescient. Chandler was a mediocre center who couldn’t stay healthy. He had a major renaissance after that, but I find it hard to give Presti too much crap for not foreseeing that 1.5 years in the future.

      Not to put too fine a point on it, but Chandler was really good in New Orleans the year before and would have been worth the risk of Chris Wilcox. But you’re right, it’s not really something to fault Presti for. Plus being bad allowed them to draft Harden.

    22. lavor postell

      flossy:
      If Melo hadn’t refused to execute the offensive sets, he’d have had plenty of open looks off the catch and opportunities to drive against rotating defense.But instead of starting each play on the wing he just camped out in the high post and called for the ball, making it impossible the actually run the high PnR.

      So Melo hated playing point-forward (and sucked at it), and then refused to actually participate in MDA’s standard offense once we found a PG (ironically, an offense system in which Melo proceeded to thrive the minute MDA quit, because he actually ran the plays correctly instead of sabotaging them out of spite).And don’t even get me started on his defense.Why would any coach defend a player who plays bad and then sulks when other players play well?!

      Complete nonsense. This was the biggest indictment on D’Antoni’s time in New York that he wanted one of the premier mid-range scorers in the game to solely become a spot up three point shooter on the wing. It’s patently false we ran the same offense after D’Antoni left. Woodson admittedly incorporated some tenets of the SSOL offense into his system, most prominently the use of the high pNr and maximizing the three point shot.

      The difference is he got Melo touches early in the game at the elbows or on the block to get him going early. D’Antoni literally never did this first with the doomed Melo point forward experiment and then later when he had Lin and Melo on the floor together. Instead he decided that a hot 7 game stretch by an unknown rookie against at best average defenses warranted making Melo a secondary player in the offense instead choosing to highlight Lin and Chandler pNr as it’s centerpiece with Lin given carte blanche to do whatever he wanted on a possession.

      D’Antoni is just lucky Nash was the greatest teammate ever because his system just allows way too much…

    23. lavor postell

      I think Presti will ultimately be judged on essentially choosing Ibaka over Harden. I get the logic, but to me Harden is the homerun pick. I think the odds of the them finding a set of bigs with cap exceptions and minimum contracts to round out around Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Jackson and Sefolosha are better than landing another top-3 sg in the league.

      Harden is a star right now. Ibaka is a really nice complementary player. I’d roll the dice with the guy who proved to be the difference through the Western Conference playoffs. He took them to another level that Ibaka just cannot.

    24. mr.JayP

      DS:
      “Thunder Respond to Houston Rally, Win 105-102?

      Fire Scott Brooks.What does Sam Presti, supposedly the shrewdest exec., owe this guy? Brooks’s credentials are nice and bloated now, he’ll find another job.Plus Jax is available and would be a great match.

      As a Knicks fan, I would appreciate somebody doing something to prevent a Miami dynasty.

      Completely agreed. Scott Brooks doesn’t have enough Offensive chops to beat Mia. Letting westbrick n Durant just run up the court and taking jump shots will not beat Mia.

    25. er

      mr.JayP: Completely agreed. Scott Brooks doesn’t have enough Offensive chops to beat Mia. Letting westbrick n Durant just run up the court and taking jump shots will not beat Mia.

      nah they wont win a chip for a long while

    26. er

      Interesting piece about how KD obsesses over his numbers:

      http://nba.si.com/2013/04/23/kevin-durant-oklahoma-city-thunder-sports-illustrated-cover/

      “I don’t watch a lot of other basketball away from the gym,” Durant says. “But I do look at LeBron’s box score. I want to see how many points, rebounds and assists he had, and how he shot from the field. If he had 30 points, nine rebounds and eight assists, I can tell you exactly how he did it, what type of shots he made and who he passed to.” Durant and James take flak for their friendship, but it is based on a mutual appreciation of the craft. They aren’t hanging out at the club. They are feverishly one-upping each other from afar. “People see two young black basketball players at the top of their game and think we should clash,” Durant says. “They want the conflict. They want the hate. They forget Bird cried for Magic. A friend was getting on me about this recently, and I said, ‘Calm down. I’m not taking it easy on him. Don’t you know I’m trying to destroy the guy every time I go on the court?’?”

      It’s one thing to pay lip service to the shot charts and numbers; it’s quite another to employ a personal stat geek and to memorize situational shooting statistics. Durant, we find out, has done both of those things, and more.

      Kevin Durant sat in a leather terminal chair next to a practice court and pointed toward the 90-degree- angle at the upper-right corner of the key that represents the elbow. “See that spot,” Durant said. “I used to shoot 38, 39 percent from there off the catch coming around pin-down screens.” He paused for emphasis. “I’m up to 45, 46 percent now.”

      Durant has hired his own analytics expert. He tailors workouts to remedy numerical imbalances. He harps on efficiency more than a Prius dealer. To Durant, basketball is an orchard, and every shot an apple. “Let’s say you’ve got 40 apples on your tree,

    27. er

      KD tracks his numbers in his head obsessively throughout games, down to turnovers, assists, what he’s shooting from the floor, rebounds and of course, points. I remember a game last season where Durant threw a half-oop, half-shot out of bounds. He came over to the scorekeeper and asked him if he had scored it a turnover or a shot attempt. The scorekeeper said turnover, to which Durant said, “Good, I’d rather have a turnover than a miss.”

      Durant has hired his own analytics expert. He tailors workouts to remedy numerical imbalances. He harps on efficiency more than a Prius dealer. To Durant, basketball is an orchard, and every shot an apple. “Let’s say you’ve got 40 apples on your tree,” Durant explains. “I could eat about 30 of them, but I’ve begun limiting myself to 15 or 16. Let’s take the wide-open three and the post-up at the nail. Those are good apples. Let’s throw out the pull-up three in transition and the step-back fadeaway. Those are rotten apples. The three at the top of the circle — that’s an in-between apple. We only want the very best on the tree.”

    28. Juany8

      lavor postell:
      I think Presti will ultimately be judged on essentially choosing Ibaka over Harden.I get the logic, but to me Harden is the homerun pick.I think the odds of the them finding a set of bigs with cap exceptions and minimum contracts to round out around Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Jackson and Sefolosha are better than landing another top-3 sg in the league.

      Harden is a star right now.Ibaka is a really nice complementary player.I’d roll the dice with the guy who proved to be the difference through the Western Conference playoffs.He took them to another level that Ibaka just cannot.

      So they haven’t even received half the value they got from harden (Jeremy lamb and toronto’s lottery pick) AND they had a better record this year than last year, AND the only game OKC won in the finals was when Harden got benched during the 4th quarter. If they win the finals this year, is the argument somehow going to be that they would have won more easily with harden in the lineup? Truth simply is that Kevin Martin can fill harden’s old bench scoring role and Durant and Westbrook can pick up the playmaking slack. It’s possible that harden is a star AND that OKC made the right move in letting him go. Especially since he’s not exactly lighting them up, his efficiency this series has been horrendous so far.

    29. Nick C.

      Is that really all bad? The in game tracking is not cool, not unique, but not cool. But the knowing which shots suck and which he sucks at would seem to me to be smart. Now if he is passing up those rotten apples when the shot clock winds down that is another story.
      To me this is not far off battier talking about knowing where a guys shoots best from. Even K-Mart says he knows what the pet moves etc. of his opponents are or something to that effect.

      er:
      KD tracks his numbers in his head obsessively throughout games, down to turnovers, assists, what he’s shooting from the floor, rebounds and of course, points. I remember a game last season where Durant threw a half-oop, half-shot out of bounds. He came over to the scorekeeper and asked him if he had scored it a turnover or a shot attempt. The scorekeeper said turnover, to which Durant said, “Good, I’d rather have a turnover than a miss.”

      Durant has hired his own analytics expert. He tailors workouts to remedy numerical imbalances. He harps on efficiency more than a Prius dealer. To Durant, basketball is an orchard, and every shot an apple. “Let’s say you’ve got 40 apples on your tree,” Durant explains. “I could eat about 30 of them, but I’ve begun limiting myself to 15 or 16. Let’s take the wide-open three and the post-up at the nail. Those are good apples. Let’s throw out the pull-up three in transition and the step-back fadeaway. Those are rotten apples. The three at the top of the circle — that’s an in-between apple. We only want the very best on the tree.”

    30. Hubert Davis

      thenamestsam: This is a pretty simplistic way of looking at things.

      It was. But so was naming a method of rebuilding after lucking into a once-in-blue-moon talent and following that up by lucking into a top 10 player in the next draft.

      People love to love this guy but I’ve found him to be startlingly average.

      It doesn’t matter how the Green for Perkins trade was graded at the time, either. That was a piss poor trade which he then compounded by giving him a large multiyear extension that forced them to choose between Ibaka and Harden.

      I’m not saying the guy is an idiot. I think he’s average to slightly above. But he gets talked about like he’s a genius. If he gets the #2 pick in 06 instead of 07, and the #4 pick in 07 instead of 08, he’s building around LaMarcus Aldridge and Mike Conley, they’re a run of the mill 8 seed out west, and there is no “Presti Method.”

      And, as pointed out above, he has an idiot for a coach.

    31. DS

      Juany8: It’s possible that harden is a star AND that OKC made the right move in letting him go.

      I think you hit the nail on the head.

    32. thenamestsam

      Nick C.:
      Is that really all bad? The in game tracking is not cool, not unique, but not cool. But the knowing which shots suck and which he sucks at would seem to me to be smart. Now if he is passing up those rotten apples when the shot clock winds down that is another story.
      To me this is not far off battier talking about knowing where a guys shoots best from. Even K-Mart says he knows what the pet moves etc. of his opponents are or something to that effect.

      Right. This is how I see it. If you’re passing up a bad shot with 2 seconds left on the clock because you’re worried about your shooting numbers, that hurts your team. But if you’re hiring an analytics expert who tells you which shots you should be trying to get, which ones you should be trying to avoid, which ones you can improve at, I think that has at least the potential to help your game.

      The idea of a player obsessing over their numbers comes with a lot of stigma because the implication is that he’s obsessed with his stats to the detriment of wins. But as long as you’re obsessed with putting up numbers that lead to victories for your team, I don’t see the conflict.

    33. Juany8

      Nick C.:
      Is that really all bad? The in game tracking is not cool, not unique, but not cool. But the knowing which shots suck and which he sucks at would seem to me to be smart. Now if he is passing up those rotten apples when the shot clock winds down that is another story.
      To me this is not far off battier talking about knowing where a guys shoots best from. Even K-Mart says he knows what the pet moves etc. of his opponents are or something to that effect.

      Lebron did say something to the effect of “taking shots at the end of quarters is bad because it hurts efficiency”.

      Gotta give it up to the stat geeks, they changed the focus from gunning for a high PPP to gunning for a higher ts%. So now instead of forcing up bad shots, players are passing up good ones in the name of keeping a number that is irrelevant to winning. Makes me gain respect for someone like Rose who goes out of his way to take end of quarter shots since he knows it’s helping his team win. What’s good for the individual is not necessarily good for the team.

    34. Hubert Davis

      Also, Russell Westbrook was a locked-in no brainer in the 2008 draft. The only player who could’ve been taken ahead of him at that spot was Love, and the presence of Durant made that a non-decision.

      That was considered a 5 star draft (Rose, Beasley, Westbrook, Mayo, Love). I remember because we had the 6th pick!

    35. DS

      Hubert Davis: It was.But so was naming a method of rebuilding after lucking into a once-in-blue-moon talent and following that up by lucking into a top 10 player in the next draft.

      People love to love this guy but I’ve found him to be startlingly average.

      It doesn’t matter how the Green for Perkins trade was graded at the time, either.That was a piss poor trade which he then compounded by giving him a large multiyear extension that forced them to choose between Ibaka and Harden.

      I’m not saying the guy is an idiot.I think he’s average to slightly above.But he gets talked about like he’s a genius.If he gets the #2 pick in 06 instead of 07, and the #4 pick in 07 instead of 08, he’s building around LaMarcus Aldridge and Mike Conley, they’re a run of the mill 8 seed out west, and there is no “Presti Method.”

      And, as pointed out above, he has an idiot for a coach.

      Harden, Conley, and Aldridge, and Ibaka? Sounds OK to me.

    36. Hubert Davis

      Juany8: It’s possible that harden is a star AND that OKC made the right move in letting him go. Especially since he’s not exactly lighting them up, his efficiency this series has been horrendous so far.

      It is, but it’s not possible to say he made the team better when he traded Harden.

    37. Hubert Davis

      DS: Harden, Conley, and Aldridge, and Ibaka?Sounds OK to me.

      It would have been decent until he traded Conley for Gerald Wallace. (That’s as close to a Green for Perkins analogy as I could find).

    38. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis:
      Also, Russell Westbrook was a locked-in no brainer in the 2008 draft.The only player who could’ve been taken ahead of him at that spot was Love, and the presence of Durant made that a non-decision.

      That was considered a 5 star draft (Rose, Beasley, Westbrook, Mayo, Love).I remember because we had the 6th pick!

      This is startlingly inaccurate. Many expected Brook Lopez to go in that spot. NBA.com put together a consensus mock draft using 13 mocks from around the internet. Russell Westbrook went higher than 6th in 0 of those.

      http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

    39. DS

      Hubert Davis: It would have been decent until he traded Conley for Gerald Wallace. (That’s as close to a Green for Perkins analogy as I could find).

      So Harden, Gerald Wallace, and Aldridge? Still good. Is Mitt Romney president too?

    40. lavor postell

      Juany8: So they haven’t even received half the value they got from harden (Jeremy lamb and toronto’s lottery pick) AND they had a better record this year than last year, AND the only game OKC won in the finals was when Harden got benched during the 4th quarter. If they win the finals this year, is the argument somehow going to be that they would have won more easily with harden in the lineup? Truth simply is that Kevin Martin can fill harden’s old bench scoring role and Durant and Westbrook can pick up the playmaking slack. It’s possible that harden is a star AND that OKC made the right move in letting him go. Especially since he’s not exactly lighting them up, his efficiency this series has been horrendous so far.

      Harden is 23 and not even touching his prime yet having easily shown the potential to be a perennial All-Star as well as a fixture on All-NBA teams. Martin is 30 exiting his prime. If you think Jeremy Lamb is going to become Harden you’re fooling yourself. Harden was extremely underrated coming out of college and Presti took him before many people felt comfortable doing so.

      I give him a ton of credit for that move, but I don’t think OKC is a better team this year. When they play a team that defends with any competence Harden’s value will come through. There’s a reason why they have struggled against the best teams in the league this year. Ibaka is not even particularly good enough defensively to justify giving up Harden for him.

      Maybe I’m wrong and Presti knocks their pick this year out of the park and Royce White fulfills his immense potential. At that point I’ll admit I’m wrong, but right now if given the choice between Harden and Ibaka I’d take Harden every time and move Ibaka for whatever I could get. I would imagine they could have gotten a slightly lesser package for Ibaka and to me that’s fine when you’ve got…

    41. Hubert Davis

      So, DS, you’re saying if he fielded a team of James Harden, Gerald Wallace, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Serge Ibaka, helmed by Scott Brooks, that Sam Presti would be called a genius and teams around the country would be tanking so they could imitate his method and replicate that shining roster on a mount that he built?

    42. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis: It was.But so was naming a method of rebuilding after lucking into a once-in-blue-moon talent and following that up by lucking into a top 10 player in the next draft.

      People love to love this guy but I’ve found him to be startlingly average.

      It doesn’t matter how the Green for Perkins trade was graded at the time, either.That was a piss poor trade which he then compounded by giving him a large multiyear extension that forced them to choose between Ibaka and Harden.

      I’m not saying the guy is an idiot.I think he’s average to slightly above.But he gets talked about like he’s a genius.If he gets the #2 pick in 06 instead of 07, and the #4 pick in 07 instead of 08, he’s building around LaMarcus Aldridge and Mike Conley, they’re a run of the mill 8 seed out west, and there is no “Presti Method.”

      And, as pointed out above, he has an idiot for a coach.

      It seems like you’re basically arguing that trading is the only skill part of a GMs job? Basically you’re saying its just luck that he got the right players with his top 5 picks, and it’s purely a coincidence that they’ve done amazingly in the draft year after year. My explanation would be that they do a great job scouting and a phenomenal job of developing players once they get them in the system. With 4 top 5 picks he got 3 1st team all NBA caliber players and a very good player in Jeff Green. Seems pretty good to me.

    43. DS

      lavor postell: Harden is 23 and not even touching his prime yet having easily shown the potential to be a perennial All-Star as well as a fixture on All-NBA teams.Martin is 30 exiting his prime.If you think Jeremy Lamb is going to become Harden you’re fooling yourself.Harden was extremely underrated coming out of college and Presti took him before many people felt comfortable doing so.

      I give him a ton of credit for that move, but I don’t think OKC is a better team this year.When they play a team that defends with any competence Harden’s value will come through.There’s a reason why they have struggled against the best teams in the league this year.Ibaka is not even particularly good enough defensively to justify giving up Harden for him.

      Maybe I’m wrong and Presti knocks their pick this year out of the park and Royce White fulfills his immense potential.At that point I’ll admit I’m wrong, but right now if given the choice between Harden and Ibaka I’d take Harden every time and move Ibaka for whatever I could get.I would imagine they could have gotten a slightly lesser package for Ibaka and to me that’s fine when you’ve got…

      You mean Jeremy Lamb, not Royce White. I think you are not taking Juan’s and others’ point into account, that Harden is as good as you’re saying but that one can’t afford to pay a superstar’s salary for that role.

    44. Hubert Davis

      thenamestsam: This is startlingly inaccurate. Many expected Brook Lopez to go in that spot. NBA.com put together a consensus mock draft using 13 mocks from around the internet. Russell Westbrook went higher than 6th in 0 of those.

      http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

      I recall Westbrook initially being rated very low by these “expert” mock draft guessers, and Donnie Walsh rather foolishly letting his lust for Westbrook be known days before the draft, at which point most beat writers started to catch wind that they were all rating Westbrook way too low and began adjusting on the fly. By the time the draft started (and I was there) everyone in the building knew Westbrook wasn’t making it to 6.

    45. DS

      Hubert Davis:
      So, DS, you’re saying if he fielded a team of James Harden, Gerald Wallace, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Serge Ibaka, helmed by Scott Brooks, that Sam Presti would be called a genius and teams around the country would be tanking so they could imitate his method and replicate that shining roster on a mount that he built?

      That would be a young, 55 win team built on high draft picks so you would say close to what you say about him now. “Genius” is prob. a strong word for any NBA GM ever.

    46. lavor postell

      DS: You mean Jeremy Lamb, not Royce White.I think you are not taking Juan’s and others’ point into account, that Harden is as good as you’re saying but that one can’t afford to pay a superstar’s salary for that role.

      No I meant Royce White who I think has way more talent than Lamb who to me is a pretty limited scorer. Again Presti maybe is unearthing another gem but I don’t see Lamb as a potential sleeper. It’s also worthy to note he pretty much failed on the Aldrich and Mullens picks. Even if you think they are good and have value they are no longer on the team.

      Also I’m simply disagreeing with the point of affording such a player. I think OKC ownership doesn’t want to spend any of that extra cash they’ve been pulling in over the last few seasons with the playoffs and not having to pay these guys major salaries until the last two seasons. Sure it would restrict some of their roster flexibility but this isnt’t the Lakers paying Kobe and Gasol max money in their 30’s.

      This would be keeping three max guys who all have yet to hit their primes. With those three guys I think it would have merely been a matter of time before you found the right supporting cast around them whereas now I don’t view them as an overwhelming favorite to come out of the West nor do I feel they are a legitimate threat to Miami in the finals. Hell if the Knicks made the Finals I’d love our chances against OKC.

    47. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis: I recall Westbrook initially being rated very low by these “expert” mock draft guessers, and Donnie Walsh rather foolishly letting his lust for Westbrook be known days before the draft, at which point most beat writers started to catch wind that they were all rating Westbrook way too low and began adjusting on the fly.By the time the draft started (and I was there) everyone in the building knew Westbrook wasn’t making it to 6.

      Did you click the link? Many of those are mock drafts from the day of the draft. You can say everyone in the building knew Westbrook wasn’t making it top 5 because there’s no way for anyone to dispute that, but the idea that it was considered a five star draft with Westbrook and not Lopez as one of those players…well, there’s certainly no evidence for that. Certainly, that wasn’t reflected in any of the mock drafts that I’ve seen anywhere. If that’s not the right way to judge pre-draft consensus about a draft, what is?

    48. thenamestsam

      lavor postell: No I meant Royce White who I think has way more talent than Lamb who to me is a pretty limited scorer.Again Presti maybe is unearthing another gem but I don’t see Lamb as a potential sleeper. It’s also worthy to note he pretty much failed on the Aldrich and Mullens picks.Even if you think they are good and have value they are no longer on the team.

      Also I’m simply disagreeing with the point of affording such a player.I think OKC ownership doesn’t want to spend any of that extra cash they’ve been pulling in over the last few seasons with the playoffs and not having to pay these guys major salaries until the last two seasons.Sure it would restrict some of their roster flexibility but this isnt’t the Lakers paying Kobe and Gasol max money in their 30?s.

      This would be keeping three max guys who all have yet to hit their primes.With those three guys I think it would have merely been a matter of time before you found the right supporting cast around them whereas now I don’t view them as an overwhelming favorite to come out of the West nor do I feel they are a legitimate threat to Miami in the finals.Hell if the Knicks made the Finals I’d love our chances against OKC.

      Right, but Royce White belongs to the Rockets, not to the Thunder.

    49. Hubert Davis

      thenamestsam: It seems like you’re basically arguing that trading is the only skill part of a GMs job? Basically you’re saying its just luck that he got the right players with his top 5 picks, and it’s purely a coincidence that they’ve done amazingly in the draft year after year. My explanation would be that they do a great job scouting and a phenomenal job of developing players once they get them in the system. With 4 top 5 picks he got 3 1st team all NBA caliber players and a very good player in Jeff Green. Seems pretty good to me.

      My argument, which I don’t think I’ve stated very well, is that building through the draft is a crapshoot. You’re not a genius if you roll 7’s and you’re not a fool if you come up snake eyes.

      Portland rebuilt the same exact way. They ended up with Roy, Aldridge, Webster, Oden. All of whom were smart picks. And Kevin Pritchard is no fool.

      But Pritchard lost his job and Presti is a genius. I don’t buy it. You have to get very lucky to rebuild the way Presti has.

    50. flossy

      lavor postell: This was the biggest indictment on D’Antoni’s time in New York that he wanted one of the premier mid-range scorers in the game to solely become a spot up three point shooter on the wing.

      Is this a joke? Did you watch any of the games from the 2nd half of 2011 after the Melo trade? The minute he stepped into D’Antoni’s offense he immediately set a career high in TS% and tied his career high eFG%, on a usage of 31%. The idea that D’Antoni tried to marginalize Melo or make him nothing more than a spot-up shooter is laughable.

      The problems cropped up the next season, when there was no viable PG on the roster. First Carmelo failed big-time as the primary facilitator, and then once an actual PG emerged who could successfully run the offense, he refused to play his role in the offense as designed. There is really nothing to defend about the 1st half of Carmelo Anthony’s 2011-12 season. His conditioning, performance and attitude all sucked balls.

    51. Juany8

      DS: You mean Jeremy Lamb, not Royce White.I think you are not taking Juan’s and others’ point into account, that Harden is as good as you’re saying but that one can’t afford to pay a superstar’s salary for that role.

      This is exactly right DS thank you. They still have 2 picks they haven’t received and had the best differential in the league this year. Let me repeat that, they outsourced their competition in the harder conference when they had a competitor who had the second best winning streak in league history. OKC is still going to be getting better! Why would you rape your flexibility in order to sign a 3rd option on offense that is a mediocre defender at best? Harden for the same price as Kevin Martin is an obvious choice. Harden for twice as much as Kevin Martin and 2 lottery picks? Not so obvious, especially since they give up all flexibility in the process. Furthermore, because harden is good, you get more value in return for him. Even if harden is clearly better than ibaka, if you get a much better package for harden and you can play ibaka and harden’s replacement the same as Harden alone, That is a perfectly reasonable move.

    52. DS

      Hubert Davis: My argument, which I don’t think I’ve stated very well, is that building through the draft is a crapshoot.You’re not a genius if you roll 7?s and you’re not a fool if you come up snake eyes.

      Portland rebuilt the same exact way.They ended up with Roy, Aldridge, Webster, Oden.All of whom were smart picks.And Kevin Pritchard is no fool.

      But Pritchard lost his job and Presti is a genius.I don’t buy it.You have to get very lucky to rebuild the way Presti has.

      That’s fair enough, but I think people realize that Pritchard was UNlucky. Or they blame Portland’s medical staff. I don’t think Portland’s situation undermines the strategy of gathering draft picks. Look at what they’ve done in spite of catastrophic injuries to Roy and Oden.

    53. jon abbey

      d-mar:

      I also like how he’s backtracking on his “the Nets are better than the Knicks” statements by saying he didn’t know the Knicks were going to get K-Mart, as if that’s the whole difference between the 2 teams.

      way behind on this thread, but it is. it can’t be emphasized enough how Martin has saved our season.

    54. lavor postell

      Juany8: This is exactly right DS thank you. They still have 2 picks they haven’t received and had the best differential in the league this year. Let me repeat that, they outsourced their competition in the harder conference when they had a competitor who had the second best winning streak in league history. OKC is still going to be getting better! Why would you rape your flexibility in order to sign a 3rd option on offense that is a mediocre defender at best? Harden for the same price as Kevin Martin is an obvious choice. Harden for twice as much as Kevin Martin and 2 lottery picks? Not so obvious, especially since they give up all flexibility in the process. Furthermore, because harden is good, you get more value in return for him. Even if harden is clearly better than ibaka, if you get a much better package for harden and you can play ibaka and harden’s replacement the same as Harden alone, That is a perfectly reasonable move.

      Ok I guess then we just value Harden differently which an altogether different debate. Fair enough.

    55. DS

      Hubert Davis: If you say so.

      So Harden is one of the top SG’s in the league, but when paired with Ibaka, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Gerald Wallace, and whoever else OKC has under this increasingly ridiculous hypothetical situation, he cannot muster 55 wins? The Rockets won 45.

    56. thenamestsam

      DS: That would be a young, 55 win team built on high draft picks so you would say close to what you say about him now.“Genius” is prob. a strong word for any NBA GM ever.

      Right, the problem with calling any NBA GM a genius is that it’s really impossible to figure out how much credit and blame they deserve for different things. Consider just the Kevin Durant pick. Some would say Presti gets 0 credit. It was a no-brainer pick and Durant became a superstar so Presti gets no credit for having a superstar on his team. But that ignores a bevy of factors. How much did the player development staff Presti put in place contribute to Durant’s development? How much did the training staff contribute to keeping him healthy? There’s no way of knowing how good Durant would be under any other set of circumstances. But it seems obvious to me that the organization that drafts a player has a big impact on how they turn out.

      Look at Charlotte’s record of top 10 picks in the last 10 years. From 2004-2012 they’ve picked 2, 5, 13, 3, 8, 22, 9, 20, 12, 9, 19, and 2. That’s 9 lottery picks and 2 first rounders and the best players they’ve drafted is probably Felton (unless you’re partial to Dudley, MKG and Tobias Harris both still might be good). Is that bad scouting? Bad player development? Some of both? Or look at Sacramento, and the way the players they’ve picked have developed (or failed to).

      So doesn’t Presti deserve some of the credit for Durant being awesome? Do we really think he’d be just as good if he had been picked by Charlotte or Sacramento? Probably not, but figuring out how to split up the credit is really hard. That’s why I judge on the results, and Presti’s results are up there with anybodies.

    57. jon abbey

      Hubert Davis: I recall Westbrook initially being rated very low by these “expert” mock draft guessers, and Donnie Walsh rather foolishly letting his lust for Westbrook be known days before the draft, at which point most beat writers started to catch wind that they were all rating Westbrook way too low and began adjusting on the fly.By the time the draft started (and I was there) everyone in the building knew Westbrook wasn’t making it to 6.

      THANK YOU! so glad someone else remembers this, not to mention the interview at the start of draft night where Walsh told the interviewer something like “we know who we want and we’re going to get him” with a smug little smile that made me want to punch him through the TV. awful awful awful awful job by Walsh at a time when the Knicks needed perfection from their GM.

      AWFUL.

    58. Hubert Davis

      thenamestsam: Did you click the link? Many of those are mock drafts from the day of the draft. You can say everyone in the building knew Westbrook wasn’t making it top 5 because there’s no way for anyone to dispute that, but the idea that it was considered a five star draft with Westbrook and not Lopez as one of those players…well, there’s certainly no evidence for that. Certainly, that wasn’t reflected in any of the mock drafts that I’ve seen anywhere. If that’s not the right way to judge pre-draft consensus about a draft, what is?

      I did click the link. But I don’t think the people who do mock drafts know what they’re doing.

      I know that Westbrook wasn’t making it past the Knicks at 6, and I think many people here who remember that draft would attest to that. Donnie Walsh actually let it slip that he was dead set on taking Westbrook. Then it became apparent that he had to trade up to do so, and he spent the days and hours leading up to the draft desperately trying to.

      So when 8 of those 11 drafts have him going 7th or lower, I challenge your premise that mock drafts are a strong indication of what NBA executives are actually thinking.

    59. lavor postell

      flossy: Is this a joke?Did you watch any of the games from the 2nd half of 2011 after the Melo trade?The minute he stepped into D’Antoni’s offense he immediately set a career high in TS% and tied his career high eFG%, on a usage of 31%.The idea that D’Antoni tried to marginalize Melo or make him nothing more than a spot-up shooter is laughable.

      The problems cropped up the next season, when there was no viable PG on the roster.First Carmelo failed big-time as the primary facilitator, and then once an actual PG emerged who could successfully run the offense, he refused to play his role in the offense as designed.There is really nothing to defend about the 1st half of Carmelo Anthony’s 2011-12 season.His conditioning, performance and attitude all sucked balls.

      No I haven’t at all forgotten that time which is what made it so frustrating last year when Lin became the primary ball handler last year and Melo came back. Billups was a fantastic floor general and he constantly ran sets that Melo and him ran together in Denver to get him going very often. Melo is more than happy to shoot threes when they are available, but it’s important to get him going in the mid-range which is his sweet spot and often allows him to get to the rim for easier looks.

      Not knocking Lin here at all, but trying to compare his ability to dole out shots for Melo and Amar’e while also getting Tyson looks on the pNr was limited. D’Antoni compounded this by virtually never looking to establish Melo on the block or elbow areas in any capacity during that time for no apparent reason. Am I saying Melo played his ass off, no I don’t think so, but I can also understand why it’d be hard to play for a coach who wants to marginalize you and isn’t really building around you. For D’Antoni the system is what’s most important.

    60. KnickfaninNJ

      lavor postell:
      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20130425/derrick-rose-injury-chicago-bulls-brooklyn-nets/?sct=hp_t12_a6&eref=sihp

      I keep reading posts in this forum that say or imply that Rose should be playing now. But only he can judge if he’s good enough. Medical clearance to play doesn’t mean you can play at the level you did before; it just means you don’t have an unreasonable chance of reinjuring the area where you were hurt. To cite a counter example, think of Bernard King. He took a lot of heat for being very slow to come back from his major knee injury. But when he did come back he was just as good as before (which was amazingly good). If Derrick Rose does that I will admire him both for his strength of will to get back to his former level and for doing the right thing despite a lot of criticism.

    61. jon abbey

      and the other thing about Presti and Perkins/Green is that you can’t measure the impact that a veteran who’s won so many playoff series can have on a team of 22 year olds.

      that SI piece on Durant this week talks about how Perkins and Durant call each other every single night at 2 AM to discuss the state of the team, pretty sure that’s not measurable by any of the metrics we have… :)

    62. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: My argument, which I don’t think I’ve stated very well, is that building through the draft is a crapshoot.You’re not a genius if you roll 7?s and you’re not a fool if you come up snake eyes.

      Portland rebuilt the same exact way.They ended up with Roy, Aldridge, Webster, Oden.All of whom were smart picks.And Kevin Pritchard is no fool.

      But Pritchard lost his job and Presti is a genius.I don’t buy it.You have to get very lucky to rebuild the way Presti has.

      As opposed to Miami, who drafted wade and then was gifted Lebron and bosh because they were buddies? Or what about Greg poppovich and rc Buford, how hard can it really be to build around Tim Duncan? And at least OKC tanked on purpose, San Antonio tanked because of injuries! And who can forget the Richard Jefferson debacle, or the fact that San Antonio has needed a better big men to pair with Duncan for years and they spend all their time chasing guards and wing players. Then they wonder why they can’t stop teams with guys like Matt bonnet and Dejuan Blair playing PF.

      It’s gonna take you a long time to find a team who’s overall strategy didnt involve stupid amounts of luck. Do you realize Miami blew a 2nd pick in the draft and tried to sign Lamar odom to a long term contract the year before they got Lebron? Or how about dirk being gifted Tyson chandler, who suddenly got healthy after years of serious injuries.

      Hell you guys probably aren’t aware of this, but Phoenix agreed to trade Amar’e to Houston!! The only reason the trade didnt happen is because Phoenix wanted to waive the physical and Houston refused. If amar’e goes to Houston, the Knicks might have walked out of the “summer of Lebron” with Carlos freaking boozer on a $100 million contract lol. Doubt Melo and chandler bother coming to New York in that scenario…

    63. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis: My argument, which I don’t think I’ve stated very well, is that building through the draft is a crapshoot.You’re not a genius if you roll 7?s and you’re not a fool if you come up snake eyes.

      Portland rebuilt the same exact way.They ended up with Roy, Aldridge, Webster, Oden.All of whom were smart picks.And Kevin Pritchard is no fool.

      But Pritchard lost his job and Presti is a genius.I don’t buy it.You have to get very lucky to rebuild the way Presti has.

      Ah , okay. I think we’re mostly in agreement actually if you see my comment above this one. There’s definitely a huge element of luck. I think we all know that. To me, it’s also obvious that it’s not all luck. There is a skill element. From there it’s just about how you look at it. You’re saying it’s mostly luck so we shouldn’t give the GM much credit for it. I guess I’m less sure on the “mostly” part and I’m inclined to rate a GM on his results b/c just giving up on evaluating at all doesn’t seem very satisfying to me and ideally over time the luck would balance out (although obviously this isn’t true because GMs with crap luck are quickly dismissed. Your point about Pritchard being a perfect example).

    64. Hubert Davis

      DS: So Harden is one of the top SG’s in the league, but when paired with Ibaka, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Gerald Wallace, and whoever else OKC has under this increasingly ridiculous hypothetical situation, he cannot muster 55 wins?The Rockets won 45.

      We’re already 7 alternate timelines away from reality, so who knows? Serge Ibaka could be evil in this world.

    65. Juany8

      jon abbey: way behind on this thread, but it is. it can’t be emphasized enough how Martin has saved our season.

      This is correct, if Martin doesn’t come in the Knicks don’t beat the nets for the Atlantic I don’t think.

    66. flossy

      lavor postell: No I haven’t at all forgotten that time which is what made it so frustrating last year when Lin became the primary ball handler last year and Melo came back.Billups was a fantastic floor general and he constantly ran sets that Melo and him ran together in Denver to get him going very often.Melo is more than happy to shoot threes when they are available, but it’s important to get him going in the mid-range which is his sweet spot and often allows him to get to the rim for easier looks.

      Not knocking Lin here at all, but trying to compare his ability to dole out shots for Melo and Amar’e while also getting Tyson looks on the pNr was limited.D’Antoni compounded this by virtually never looking to establish Melo on the block or elbow areas in any capacity during that time for no apparent reason.Am I saying Melo played his ass off, no I don’t think so, but I can also understand why it’d be hard to play for a coach who wants to marginalize you and isn’t really building around you.For D’Antoni the system is what’s most important.

      We must have a different definition of “marginalize.” No player with a usage of 30+ is being marginalized by his coach, and the idea that Mike D’Antoni *wanted* to marginalize Melo is just crazy to me. Asking a player to start a player on the wing rather than the elbow so that the primary PnR action has room to run is not being “marginalized,” unless your ego just can’t handle having to wait several seconds for Jeremy Lin to pass you the ball.

    67. DS

      “Lakers just announced Steve Blake (hamstring) out indefinitely and Steve Nash (hip/hamstring) & Jodie Meeks (ankle) doubtful for Game 3.”

      Man.

    68. Hubert Davis

      Juany8: As opposed to Miami, who drafted wade and then was gifted Lebron and bosh because they were buddies?

      It’s a great point.

      I’m going to disagree with you, though. I think Riley does deserve to be called a genius for constructing that team. His method was calculated and controlled. It didn’t depend on factors with huge standard deviations like the lottery, and the players in the lottery. It was pretty much a sure thing.

      If you want to build a contender, I say go the Riley way vs the Presti way all day.

    69. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      and the other thing about Presti and Perkins/Green is that you can’t measure the impact that a veteran who’s won so many playoff series can have on a team of 22 year olds.

      that SI piece on Durant this week talks about how Perkins and Durant call each other every single night at 2 AM to discuss the state of the team, pretty sure that’s not measurable by any of the metrics we have… :)

      Another thing everyone is conveniently leaving out is that Perkins used to be good. Check out his stats with the celtics, he used to put up some points on a solid efficiency and he was an above average rebounder. Considering they instantly became contenders after making the move, it was the right call I’d say. When the trade was made, there was nobody arguing it was a bad move for OKC and a good move for the celtics. It wasn’t until Perkins stayed at his post injury levels all last year that everyone started calling him a shitty player. Considering Jeff green has had maybe a half season of success since then, you’d have to say it was the right move.

    70. thenamestsam

      Hubert Davis: I did click the link.But I don’t think the people who do mock drafts know what they’re doing.

      I know that Westbrook wasn’t making it past the Knicks at 6, and I think many people here who remember that draft would attest to that.Donnie Walsh actually let it slip that he was dead set on taking Westbrook.Then it became apparent that he had to trade up to do so, and he spent the days and hours leading up to the draft desperately trying to.

      So when 8 of those 11 drafts have him going 7th or lower, I challenge your premise that mock drafts are a strong indication of what NBA executives are actually thinking.

      I don’t really believe that mock drafts are a strong indication of what NBA executives are thinking. But I do think they’re better than the alternative, which is vague recollections of what “everyone” knew. These are subject to memory errors and HUGE hindsight biases. I mean you say Donnie Walsh let it slip about Westbrook but how do you know that wasn’t a planted story to try to drop someone else’s stock? The guys who do the mock drafts are far from infallible, but for the most part they have way better sources and connections that you or I or anybody else posting on this board.

      Here’s a Berman article from the day before the draft saying the Knicks are trying to trade up for Mayo with Westbrook as a footnote:

      http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/item_gr5aKrHcXUozdO2RTL8NvO

      Other than that I haven’t been able to turn up anything from the time that says the Knicks were looking to trade up for Westbrook.

    71. DS

      Hubert Davis: We’re already 7 alternate timelines away from reality, so who knows?Serge Ibaka could be evil in this world.

      Evil Ibaka sounds formidable, so I stand by my comments.

    72. KnickfaninNJ

      Hubert Davis: It’s a great point.

      I’m going to disagree with you, though.I think Riley does deserve to be called a genius for constructing that team.His method was calculated and controlled.It didn’t depend on factors with huge standard deviations like the lottery, and the players in the lottery.It was pretty much a sure thing.

      If you want to build a contender, I say go the Riley way vs the Presti way all day.

      Yes, but to do what Riley did, you need a team willing to go over the cap and pay tax. I am not sure that Presti has that luxury

    73. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: It’s a great point.

      I’m going to disagree with you, though.I think Riley does deserve to be called a genius for constructing that team.His method was calculated and controlled.It didn’t depend on factors with huge standard deviations like the lottery, and the players in the lottery.It was pretty much a sure thing.

      If you want to build a contender, I say go the Riley way vs the Presti way all day.

      How is drafting wade not luck? How is drafting Beasley not a sign of a poor gm? Since then, the only moves he’s made are to pick up super old players that have wanted to come to play with Lebron on the beach. Riley might be the LEAST responsible for his team’s success of any team in the NBA. Presti is also a bit overrated, but not in a way anyone has mentioned… Have you seen him build a bench? Ronnie brewer and coke Aldrich, really? You can make a case that if presti isn’t picking at the top of the draft he isn’t getting shit. I like the trades and how he’s used his top picks, I don’t like Scott brooks or the fact that he’s failed utterly at finding decent players for his bench. Which is how they’re stuck with Derrick fisher again….

    74. lavor postell

      flossy: We must have a different definition of “marginalize.”No player with a usage of 30+ is being marginalized by his coach, and the idea that Mike D’Antoni *wanted* to marginalize Melo is just crazy to me.Asking a player to start a player on the wing rather than the elbow so that the primary PnR action has room to run is not being “marginalized,” unless your ego just can’t handle having to wait several seconds for Jeremy Lin to pass you the ball.

      Melo is not effective attacking the rim from the three point line. He takes a lot of his threes in semi-transition as the trailer. He also does shoot a fair amount as a spot up shooter on the wing, but that is not normally where is located offensively.

      Do you really think Melo’s game would remain unchanged if he gets the ball on the wing more often than the elbows? Should we really have sacrificed Melo’s strengths to build the offense around Jeremy Lin?

    75. BigBlueAL

      I believe I read a Melo quote not too long ago where he said he doesnt care about his shooting percentage he only cares about winning the game.

      You can definitely never accuse Melo of trying to keep his TS% high by refusing to take tough shots lol.

    76. thenamestsam

      DS:
      “Lakers just announced Steve Blake (hamstring) out indefinitely and Steve Nash (hip/hamstring) & Jodie Meeks (ankle) doubtful for Game 3.”

      Man.

      NBA should let them start Magic at the 1 for game 3. We’d all watch.

    77. Hubert Davis

      Juany8: As opposed to Miami, who drafted wade and then was gifted Lebron and bosh because they were buddies? Or what about Greg poppovich and rc Buford, how hard can it really be to build around Tim Duncan? And at least OKC tanked on purpose, San Antonio tanked because of injuries! And who can forget the Richard Jefferson debacle, or the fact that San Antonio has needed a better big men to pair with Duncan for years and they spend all their time chasing guards and wing players. Then they wonder why they can’t stop teams with guys like Matt bonnet and Dejuan Blair playing PF.

      It’s gonna take you a long time to find a team who’s overall strategy didnt involve stupid amounts of luck. Do you realize Miami blew a 2nd pick in the draft and tried to sign Lamar odom to a long term contract the year before they got Lebron? Or how about dirk being gifted Tyson chandler, who suddenly got healthy after years of serious injuries.

      Hell you guys probably aren’t aware of this, but Phoenix agreed to trade Amar’e to Houston!! The only reason the trade didnt happen is because Phoenix wanted to waive the physical and Houston refused. If amar’e goes to Houston, the Knicks might have walked out of the “summer of Lebron” with Carlos freaking boozer on a $100 million contract lol. Doubt Melo and chandler bother coming to New York in that scenario…

      The rest of your point I basically agree with.

      My point was that everyone who ends up with one of the few “guys” needed to win a title invariably ends up getting too much credit for it.

      Case in point:

      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n079JJHdYfY/SCkX3R43n7I/AAAAAAAAAL4/rqg4_0FzEjs/s320/krause.jpg

    78. flossy

      lavor postell: Should we really have sacrificed Melo’s strengths to build the offense around Jeremy Lin?

      Considering Melo had played like warm dog shit all year to that point, and Jeremy Lin had been running the 4-out PnR offense to perfection since his emergence, I think it’s pretty telling that when Melo came back from his injury he didn’t even try to make it work.

      Moreover, playing on a basketball team is in part about sacrifice. Not everyone can take all the shots. If giving up a few (and seriously, a few) of his favorite mid-range ISO jump shots was what it took to successfully join an offense that had come to life only in his absence, I don’t think that’s too much to ask. And it’s nothing even approaching any reasonable definition of “marginalized.”

    79. mokers

      In all of these debates on who is a good GM or not, I think we can agree we are happy we are not the Nets, who just extended Billy King.

    80. lavor postell

      flossy: Considering Melo had played like warm dog shit all year to that point, and Jeremy Lin had been running the 4-out PnR offense to perfection since his emergence, I think it’s pretty telling that when Melo came back from his injury he didn’t even try to make it work.

      Moreover, playing on a basketball team is in part about sacrifice.Not everyone can take all the shots.If giving up a few (and seriously, a few) of his favorite mid-range ISO jump shots was what it took to successfully join an offense that had come to life only in his absence, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.And it’s nothing even approaching any reasonable definition of “marginalized.”

      Amazing how Woodson immediately got Melo to buy in to sacrifice rather than D’Antoni who really loved to never take the blame for anything. Much easier to do when you know your coach has your back.

    81. d-mar

      Juany8: This is correct, if Martin doesn’t come in the Knicks don’t beat the nets for the Atlantic I don’t think.

      Do you really believe that the only difference between us and the Nets is Kenyon Martin? I love what K-Mart has brought to this team, but we finished 5 games ahead of Brooklyn, and were pretty much cruising to the Atlantic Division title earlier in the season until we got slammed by injuries.

      I just don’t get this continuous over valuation of the Nets, we’re a much better team than they are, with or without K-Mart.

    82. jon abbey

      the team was in freefall before Martin showed up. I don’t know if we win the division or not without him, but I know we don’t win game 1 without him, and I think it’s very likely we don’t make it out of the first round.

    83. johnno

      KnickfaninNJ: I keep reading posts in this forum that say or imply that Rose should be playing now. But only he can judge if he’s good enough. Medical clearance to play doesn’t mean you can play at the level you did before; it just means you don’t have an unreasonable chance of reinjuring the area where you were hurt. To cite a counter example, think of Bernard King. He took a lot of heat for being very slow to come back from his major knee injury. But when he did come back he was just as good as before (which was amazingly good). If Derrick Rose does that I will admire him both for his strength of will to get back to his former level and for doing the right thing despite a lot of criticism.

      That’s one way of looking at it. Another way is that the team is paying him something like $18 million this year to play basketball. If he is healthy (meaning that the doctors have concluded that he does not have any more risk of reinjuring the knee than he would have had pre-injury) and can help the team, then he has an obligation to play. If he is currently 75% of the player that he was before, he is still better than any other guard on that team. Doesn’t he owe it to his teammates, fans and the people who sign his checks to try to help the team win? Disclaimer — we obviously don’t know what the doctors have concluded or advised him, so we are all really speaking hypothetically.

    84. Hubert Davis

      I think everyone got a little riled up because I made it sound like I like think Presti is an idiot. I don’t.

      I have a residual bitterness over the fact that, for about 4 years it seems, I kept having to hear how teams like the Knicks need to rebuild “the Presti way”. And I think his ability is overstated.

      One other thing: the people who defend him by saying he doesn’t have the benefit of a team willing to pay luxury tax never, ever, ever state the flip side of the coin. If he had a team willing to pay the luxury tax, he probably wouldn’t have been on a team willing to accommodate tanking for lottery picks so many consecutive years.

      There are limitations to every method.

    85. Juany8

      d-mar: Do you really believe that the only difference between us and the Nets is Kenyon Martin? I love what K-Mart has brought to this team, but we finished 5 games ahead of Brooklyn, and were pretty much cruising to the Atlantic Division title earlier in the season until we got slammed by injuries.

      I just don’t get this continuous over valuation of the Nets, we’re a much better team than they are, with or without K-Mart.

      Well the injuries were kind of a big deal at the time when we got Kmart. The difference between them at full health is bigger, but Kmart has been pretty much our only competent big during this awesome run.

    86. Frank

      Juany8: You can make a case that if presti isn’t picking at the top of the draft he isn’t getting shit

      Well he did draft Ibaka with the 24th pick in 2008.

      After Durant he drafted Carl Landry and Big Baby in the 2nd round

      he drafted Reggie Jackson with the 24th pick, who looks like he’s going to be very good.

      Hard to say anything bad about his drafting.

      It’s pretty much the same blueprint as San Antonio. Get lucky and get a HoFer in the early draft (Durant = Duncan). Draft REALLY well with late picks (Ibaka and maybe one day Reggie Jackson = Tony Parker / Manu).

      The other thing you can say about Presti is if you give him a high pick, he’s not missing. On all 3 of his lottery picks, if you went back in time and asked him to make all 3 picks again with full knowledge of how their careers would go, he’d make the exact same picks again. That’s pretty amazing.

    87. flossy

      lavor postell: Amazing how Woodson immediately got Melo to buy in to sacrifice rather than D’Antoni who really loved to never take the blame for anything.Much easier to do when you know your coach has your back.

      You’re acting like Melo plays basketball for the Knicks as a favor. The man gets paid $20 million. It’s his job. What exactly was D’Antoni supposed to publicly defend, to prove he had his players back? “Sure, he showed up to camp overweight, won’t run my offense and doesn’t give a shit about defense, but… he sure does look cool in that headband…?” How is it not a two way street?

      I’m sure you’ll remember that D’Antoni actually did publicly defend Jared Jeffires, who absolutely gave maximum effort and got no love from the fans. Melo was a pretty big asshole last season; there really wasn’t much to defend.

    88. Juany8

      Hubert Davis:
      I think everyone got a little riled up because I made it sound like I like think Presti is an idiot.I don’t.

      I have a residual bitterness over the fact that, for about 4 years it seems, I kept having to hear how teams like the Knicks need to rebuild “the Presti way”. And I think his ability is overstated.

      One other thing: the people who defend him by saying he doesn’t have the benefit of a team willing to pay luxury tax never, ever, ever state the flip side of the coin.If he had a team willing to pay the luxury tax, he probably wouldn’t have been on a team willing to accommodate tanking for lottery picks so many consecutive years.

      There are limitations to every method.

      I’ll come right back and agree with this, I think presti is one of the better gm’s in the league, but people who are saying the best way to build a team is following his method don’t really understand statistics or the fact that the NBA is a business. Even if you have the worst record in the league, you have only a 25% chance of getting the top pick I believe. Since the chances of there being a transformational player are damned low even if you do have the top pick, a team that set itself up to be the worst team in the league for several seasons in a row (and I mean they GUARANTEED they would be awful) it would take a massive amount of luck to actually end up with a top 20 player, not to mention the 2 or 3 players of that caliber that you need to seriously contend.
      So for every Oklahoma City having awesome players just falling to them (thabeet was picked in front of harden, by Memphis who had Marc gasol already on the roster) there is a Sacramento or Washington. Teams who picked at the top for years and didnt get shit for it. Even when you stumble into a Blake griffin, you need Chris Paul to decide to switch teams. I like what the Knicks and rockets…

    89. DS

      Hubert Davis:
      I think everyone got a little riled up because I made it sound like I like think Presti is an idiot.I don’t.

      I have a residual bitterness over the fact that, for about 4 years it seems, I kept having to hear how teams like the Knicks need to rebuild “the Presti way”. And I think his ability is overstated.

      One other thing: the people who defend him by saying he doesn’t have the benefit of a team willing to pay luxury tax never, ever, ever state the flip side of the coin.If he had a team willing to pay the luxury tax, he probably wouldn’t have been on a team willing to accommodate tanking for lottery picks so many consecutive years.

      There are limitations to every method.

      Wait, so a counterargument to collecting draft picks is that your owner wouldn’t let you do it in a bigger market? That’s not an inherent limitation of the strategy itself, that’s an owner being short-sighted.

    90. ruruland

      er:
      KD tracks his numbers in his head obsessively throughout games, down to turnovers, assists, what he’s shooting from the floor, rebounds and of course, points. I remember a game last season where Durant threw a half-oop, half-shot out of bounds. He came over to the scorekeeper and asked him if he had scored it a turnover or a shot attempt. The scorekeeper said turnover, to which Durant said, “Good, I’d rather have a turnover than a miss.”

      Durant has hired his own analytics expert. He tailors workouts to remedy numerical imbalances. He harps on efficiency more than a Prius dealer. To Durant, basketball is an orchard, and every shot an apple. “Let’s say you’ve got 40 apples on your tree,” Durant explains. “I could eat about 30 of them, but I’ve begun limiting myself to 15 or 16. Let’s take the wide-open three and the post-up at the nail. Those are good apples. Let’s throw out the pull-up three in transition and the step-back fadeaway. Those are rotten apples. The three at the top of the circle — that’s an in-between apple. We only want the very best on the tree.”

      WOW.

      Incredible, truly. Melo is the selfish one though.

    91. Frank

      I actually think it’s great that Durant takes his efficiency very seriously, although perhaps it’s a bit overboard. I would love for Melo (and everyone else) to have that level of detailed analysis of his strengths and weaknesses, so he can either work on or completely avoid those weaknesses (although it sounds like Durant at times might rather Landry Fields the ball to someone else so that that player’s efficiency suffers).

      It’s a fine line. Definitely don’t want someone to completely ignore the fact that they shoot 23% from a certain spot on the floor (ie. Josh Smith on all shots more than 5 feet from the basket).

    92. d-mar

      Juany8: Well the injuries were kind of a big deal at the time when we got Kmart. The difference between them at full health is bigger, but Kmart has been pretty much our only competent big during this awesome run.

      Look, I’m not saying K-mart hasn’t been a huge addition to this team. I was getting on Barkley for justifying his constant trashing of the Knicks by saying he didn’t know they would get Martin.

      And I really can’t believe you guys think he’s the only reason the Nets didn’t win the Atlantic.

    93. DS

      Juany8: I’ll come right back and agree with this, I think presti is one of the better gm’s in the league, but people who are saying the best way to build a team is following his method don’t really understand statistics or the fact that the NBA is a business. Even if you have the worst record in the league, you have only a 25% chance of getting the top pick I believe. Since the chances of there being a transformational player are damned low even if you do have the top pick, a team that set itself up to be the worst team in the league for several seasons in a row (and I mean they GUARANTEED they would be awful) it would take a massive amount of luck to actually end up with a top 20 player, not to mention the 2 or 3 players of that caliber that you need to seriously contend.
      So for every Oklahoma City having awesome players just falling to them (thabeet was picked in front of harden, by Memphis who had Marc gasol already on the roster) there is a Sacramento or Washington. Teams who picked at the top for years and didnt get shit for it. Even when you stumble into a Blake griffin, you need Chris Paul to decide to switch teams. I like what the Knicks and rockets…

      The Clippers are where they are because of the draft. Griffin, Jordan. CP3 although traded by David Stern, was acquired for a bunch of Clippers’ 1st rounders: Al-Farouq Aminu, Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman and Austin Rivers.

    94. d-mar

      jon abbey:
      the team was in freefall before Martin showed up. I don’t know if we win the division or not without him, but I know we don’t win game 1 without him, and I think it’s very likely we don’t make it out of the first round.

      The team was in free fall and then Melo got his knee drained and went on one of the most ridiculous scoring tears in recent NBA history. And btw, K-Mart didn’t play in probably our biggest victory of the season over OKC.

    95. Juany8

      Frank: Wellhe did draft Ibaka with the 24th pick in 2008.

      After Durant he drafted Carl Landry and Big Baby in the 2nd round

      he drafted Reggie Jackson with the 24th pick, who looks like he’s going to be very good.

      Hard to say anything bad about his drafting.

      It’s pretty much the same blueprint as San Antonio. Get lucky and get a HoFer in the early draft (Durant = Duncan). Draft REALLY well with late picks (Ibaka and maybe one day Reggie Jackson = Tony Parker / Manu).

      The other thing you can say about Presti is if you give him a high pick, he’s not missing.On all 3 of his lottery picks, if you went back in time and asked him to make all 3 picks again with full knowledge of how their careers would go, he’d make the exact same picks again.That’s pretty amazing.

      I personally don’t believe in giving gm’s credit for players they never used, that’s like calling grenwald a good talent evaluator for the rautins deal. I did forget ibaka for some reason, I though he was picked higher than he was, but other than that presti hasn’t picked anyone actually playing right now. I’ll agree with you that he’s awesome at using his top picks, but their backup center is hasheen thabeet, they’re playing Derrick fisher, and they have no real backup for Durant. After their top 7, I don’t think even Reggie Jackson would get serious time on any other contender. Given that 4 players out of that top 7 have been obtained because of his high lottery picks (harden and green turned into Perkins and Kevin Martin) and that collision and sefalosha were bit role players who have been there long enough to grow with the team, you can make a case that the only non top 10 pick presti has turned into anything valuable is ibaka. In the mean time, the Knicks are finding guys like Copland pretty much every year. Same with Houston and San antonio

    96. KnickfaninNJ

      johnno: That’s one way of looking at it.Another way is that the team is paying him something like $18 million this year to play basketball.If he is healthy (meaning that the doctors have concluded that he does not have any more risk of reinjuring the knee than he would have had pre-injury) and can help the team, then he has an obligation to play.If he is currently 75% of the player that he was before, he is still better than any other guard on that team.Doesn’t he owe it to his teammates, fans and the people who sign his checks to try to help the team win?Disclaimer — we obviously don’t know what the doctors have concluded or advised him, so we are all really speaking hypothetically.

      I know what you mean and agree to a certain extent. But a Derrick Rose that is only 75% of himself would require some work and some games to integrate into the team especially because he probably couldn’t be used in the quite the same way as before. And in this case, Chicago is at a crucial point in the season and, on balance, are playing quite well without him . I think he is putting in that work because he apparently is spending a lot of time with the team in practice. If Thibideau is seeing the results in practice but not pushing him to play in playoff games, Thibideau may be right that it’s too much of a risk to the current team performance to try and integrate him during an actual play off game.,

    97. yellowboy90

      Wow, this thread is all over the place. You got the Presti saga, a Lin/Melo throwback, and Martin the season savior. With a pinch of Rose talk for seasoning.

    98. BigBlueAL

      This is great:

      Melo on his music: “I listen to Frank Sinatra a lot. I love Frank, man. … I’m already a mellow guy, but it keeps me super calm.”

    99. ruruland

      flossy: Considering Melo had played like warm dog shit all year to that point, and Jeremy Lin had been running the 4-out PnR offense to perfection since his emergence, I think it’s pretty telling that when Melo came back from his injury he didn’t even try to make it work.

      1. Melo did not show up to camp overweight. He lost shape when he was injured. He should have done a better job staying on top of that. Melo trained hard in the off-season to be MDA’s point forward.

      2. As far as Melo “sucking” as point forward. Prior to injuring his wrist in the Memphis game, Melo was .552 TS with 30 assist % and a 12 turnover %

      He was putting up a 26/5/6.7 per 36 . He was doing that with the worst jump shooting team in basketball.

      Let’s remember, Lin played pg with JR and Novak. Melo played with Douglas and Walker, both mired in miserable shooting slumps to start the year. Melo was getting those assist numbers with a team that couldn’t make the open corner 3.

      3. Melo’s numbers dropped dramatically when he returned, and he returned too early from the wrist injury because he wanted to help the team. He also shot more. Why? Could it be that with the team shooting as poorly as it was and losing, Melo wanted to to take it upon himself to turn it around? Had he been healthy, he probably would have.

      If you haven’t caught on that Melo’s game goes in the crapper when he’s injured, you haven’t been paying attention.

      4. Melo completely assimilated himself into MDA’s offense when he returned as I thoroughly documented in the past. His usage dropped to 27 with LIN, his assisted attempts skyrocketed. His cuts, as defined by Synergy, went up dramatically.
      cont….

    100. Hubert Davis

      We had a real tapestry of debates today.

      Can’t believe no one mentioned win shares.

    101. KnickfaninNJ

      To add to my comment about Rose, I have a lot less sympathy for Royce White than Rose. White’s management very much wants him to play and is paying him. It’s not clear to me that Chicago’s management thinks Rose’s decision not to come back yet is a bad one.

    102. Hubert Davis

      DS: Wait, so a counterargument to collecting draft picks is that your owner wouldn’t let you do it in a bigger market? That’s not an inherent limitation of the strategy itself, that’s an owner being short-sighted.

      Not necessarily. Not anymore short sighted than be unwilling to pay a luxury tax.

      Also, it’s not a limitation of presti’s strategy, it’s a limitation of working for a team that is willing to pay the luxury tax. Those kind of owners typically don’t like half empty arenas for 4 years while tanking.

    103. DS

      I think that the Knicks’ 1st round picks during Presti’s tenure in OKC/Seattle: Gallo, Jordan Hill, Douglas, and Shump have been pretty mediocre overall and I think even that group presents an argument as to why you collect picks. (Not to mention we forked over the Joakim Noah pick from the Eddy Curry trade in that span of time)

    104. Hubert Davis

      Frank:
      The other thing you can say about Presti is if you give him a high pick, he’s not missing.On all 3 of his lottery picks, if you went back in time and asked him to make all 3 picks again with full knowledge of how their careers would go, he’d make the exact same picks again.That’s pretty amazing.

      We’ll never know but I bet if he had picked #1 pick in the Oden/Durant draft he’d have missed.

    105. ruruland

      But he did break the offense…… as the team was mired in a losing streak. He wanted to try to win basketball games when running the offense through Lin every play wasn’t working.

      What people are really talking about with the “breaking the offense” ais the end of a tight game on the road vs the Bulls, the Knicks having lost 5 straight, and Melo demanding the ball on the elbow and teammates ignoring him — another loss.

      That was, not coincidentally, MDA’s last game.

      Melo proved he could function at times as point forward. The last two years he’s finished in the top 15 in pick and roll efficiency. He was a darned good passer in it last year.

      He was fine playing the slot or the corner in 4-out, as he did when he was first traded to NY.

      He made concessions to fit MDA’s offense, but MDA did not make concessions for Melo because he didn’t like him (just like he doesn’t like Kobe, didn’t like Amar’e in Phoenix etc al, he’ll surely write another anonymous hit piece when he’s fired in LA next year).

      MDA would “let” Melo run a few mid-post/wing post-ups, isolations, but did not integrate them into the offense.

      If Melo wanted to run one of those plays, MDA would let him, but Melo would be breaking the offense every time.

      It was a ploy to eliminate all of those touches. I’m guessing MDA knew Melo would react the way he did.

      IMO, everything MDA did in NY with Melo was to get him moved.

      You honestly think MDA had just thought about the Williams for Melo swap the day he quit?

      He didn’t want Melo to begin with, and he wasn’t going to try to make it work once the cracks in the team construction started to show.

      It took Woodson like 3 games to incorporate set that got Melo deep post touches.

    106. Juany8

      KnickfaninNJ:
      To add to my comment about Rose, I have a lot less sympathy for Royce White than Rose.White’s management very much wants him to play and is paying him.It’s not clear to me that Chicago’s management thinks Rose’s decision not to come back yet is a bad one.

      FUCK ROYCE WHITE! Sorry but the dude is a bitch who apperently thinks he’s special enough to deserve unique treatment despite the lack of a single second player in the NBA. I agree that we don’t know enough about Rose’s situation to pass judgement, I could easily see a scenario where the team is telling him not to bother, they’d rather he be at a full 100% for years to come instead of maybe having a chance at the finals (which is laughable considering he hasn’t played basketball in a year, and the bulls would have needed him to be better than before)

    107. Juany8

      Gonna have to agree with Ruru’s and point out that D’Antoni quit the team long before Melo did. And magic Johnson got his coach fired, after winning a championship with him no less, and nobody seems to give him shit for it. Now we have one of the top offenses in the league and Melo has far and away the highest usage in the whole league. Nell’s usage was still higher than lin’s, but Steve Nash and Chris Paul have tiny usages, anyone thinks that means Blake griffin is running the offense? Just another misleading stat that doesn’t mean what it pretends to mean.

    108. ruruland

      Also, Flossy, during the 7 games of Linsanity when Melo was out, the Lin offense posted an average off. efficiency of 103.4, largely against the dregs of the league. The Knicks finished with an off rating of 104.4.

      Yes, Lin was definitely a boon for the offense, was the most capable guy running high pnr, but the offense’s overall effectiveness during that time paled to what it was when Woodson took over and implemented a smarter, more balanced approach, and brought Melo out of quarantine.

      I can’t believe we’re still talking about this, but there’s a bit of revisionism and embellishment when it comes to Linsanity.

      The whole narrative that you just repeated was appropriated by those in the NY media who wanted to sensationalize and drum up conflict for maximum effect.

      The narrative you repeated has been disproven multiple times on this board and elsewhere.

      It baffles me that people still stick up for Pringles. Read between the lines, Kobe (and whoever else followed him) likely convinced MDA to dump his system.

      Remember, the first couple months of the year all MDA talked about was the system eventually working, while all everyone else talked about was dumping the system.

      Pretty obvious stuff, especially when we consider his total inflexibility last year.

    109. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: We’ll never know but I bet if he had picked #1 pick in the Oden/Durant draft he’d have missed.

      Picked harden ahead and of curry and tyreke Evans no? It’s hard to know what he would have picked, but you can’t just assume he would have made the wrong pick. Furthermore, Portland might have a shit medical staff, it wasn’t just down getting injured. In OKC, nobody ever gets injured except for Perkins, who’s a clear injury risk, and even he isn’t hurt too bad. On that note I don’t know that the Knicks have a better staff… And the rockets certainly fucking don’t lol.

    110. thenamestsam

      Juany8:
      Gonna have to agree with Ruru’s and point out that D’Antoni quit the team long before Melo did. And magic Johnson got his coach fired, after winning a championship with him no less, and nobody seems to give him shit for it. Now we have one of the top offenses in the league and Melo has far and away the highest usage in the whole league. Nell’s usage was still higher than lin’s, but Steve Nash and Chris Paul have tiny usages, anyone thinks that means Blake griffin is running the offense? Just another misleading stat that doesn’t mean what it pretends to mean.

      The important part of the Magic story is that he DID get shit for it. A lot of shit in fact. he was definitely known as a coach killer for a while. But the bottom line is that he won afterwards and if you do enough of that everything else goes away. If Melo leads this team to the promised land nothing that happened with Dantoni will be more than a footnote. And yes, people pretend usage is much more meaningful than it is.

      Juany8: FUCK ROYCE WHITE! Sorry but the dude is a bitch who apperently thinks he’s special enough to deserve unique treatment despite the lack of a single second player in the NBA. I agree that we don’t know enough about Rose’s situation to pass judgement.

      I’m sorry, but I have to say these two sentences look downright insane next to each other. On the one hand Royce White is a bitch, but on the other hand you don’t know enough about Derek Rose’s situation to pass judgement? Royce White is dealing with some pretty unique issues that NBA teams are obviously not well equipped to deal with and that are not well understood in society. Calling him a “bitch” is ridiculous.

    111. DS

      No one needs to be called a bitch, but something does not add up with the Royce White story. The way to get over a specific phobia like fear of flying is to actively participate in therapy that gradually exposes you to the stressful stimuli while practicing relaxation. The reports are that he is not showing up for appointments. So assuming that’s true, he might be sicker than he is letting on or he might be making a conscious decision to use these diagnoses to avoid competing i.e. collecting $3 million of disability a year.

    112. flossy

      Sorry ruru, I’m not arguing this with you. Your blind spot for all things Melo makes it simply not possible to have a realistic conversation with you about this topic. The idea that D’Antoni (or any coach) should have publicly stuck up for a player who was not in shape, did not play well (injured or not), and could not co-exist with his coach or teammates to the extent that he refused to play within the offense or exert effort on defense is ludicrous. That kind of behavior is not acceptable from any player let alone one making $20 mil. Melo’s performance in the first half of last season was not defensible.

      Now, he is absolutely playing better this year and completely deserves to get credit for how well the Knicks have performed this season. The end result of a team built around Melo’s style of play and coached by someone who lets him do more or less whatever he wants is actually quite good. But the two-year purge of everyone who didn’t fit the Melo-centric universe was ugly, and Melo absolutely did not cover himself in glory for most of last season.

      As for D’Antoni, no other coach in the league so consistently gets blamed for the no-win situations he inherits. When he adapts his system to suit his players, it’s because his players forced him. When he asks his players to run the plays he draws up, he’s an inflexible player-hater or whatever. It’s absurd. No coach in the league could have stepped in with no training camp and taken over a team with a few injury-plagued stars and a bunch of scrubs and succeeded in the western conference. I’m sure he’ll be blamed for the Lakers playoff losses by the usual band of know-nothings who say he’s inflexible, while ignoring that the Lakers are running their offense through Dwight Howard while now trying to win with a starting backcourt of Darius Morris and… Devin Ebanks? Jodie Meeks played the 4th most minutes of any Laker this year. That team was not good for reasons that go way beyond…

    113. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: FUCK ROYCE WHITE! Sorry but the dude is a bitch who apperently thinks he’s special enough to deserve unique treatment despite the lack of a single second player in the NBA. I agree that we don’t know enough about Rose’s situation to pass judgement, I could easily see a scenario where tand the bulls would have needed him to be better than before)

      Ladies and gentlemen: post of the year.

      I had a girlfriend with a serious anxiety disorder. Kindest and most thoughtful woman I’ve ever known. Brilliant, too: doing a PhD in philosophy of math and science now, actually. A legitimately talented person (unlike myself, mediocre in many things) who wanted nothing more than to go out into the world and live a life of social and professional “normalcy.”

      But that is not something she was able to do. I had a few anxiety attacks as a teenager, and I remember them as some of the worst moments of my life. Every minuscule sound is amplified (imagine being up for 48 hours straight and someone keeps slamming a door in every direction) and it feels like there’s some awful, terrifying, indeterminate voice screaming incoherent nonsense at you. I felt like I was going to die, and I wished I could have in those moment.

      My girlfriend had those attacks sometimes every night, sometimes for ten minutes, sometimes for up to an hour. A few times they might have happened multiple times a day (she did not update me on the status of the frequency when I was not around) but I’m not sure. The weeping you only see in grief and physical trauma. Totally irrational. Unable to be reasoned with. When the attacks happen the most you can do is try to physically comfort the sufferer through the ordeal. She preferred that I just hug her.

      And you sit here calling the man a bitch because he can’t deal with “that.” Big tough guy over here.

    114. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      *That was not something she was able to do without a significant challenge.

    115. nicos

      ruruland:

      IMO, everything MDA did in NY with Melo was to get him moved.

      I don’t know- while I’m sure he didn’t want him here in the first place, he seemed genuinely excited about about the “point forward” Melo early last year. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, the wrist injury (and being a bit out of shape when he got back) just killed that experiment. It’s worth noting that a lot of the tweaks D’A wanted to make to Melo’s game- getting him more involved in both ends of the PNR and making sure the majority of his spot-ups were behind the three point line rather than 20-22 feet- have payed real dividends this year. You’re right that the touches he gave Melo in the mid-post seemed begrudging as they ran nothing off of it other than the occasional side pnr but he did get him a decent amount of touches there- the fact is that between Melo’s injuries and the Knicks guards shooting I’m not sure what D’A could have done the make those plays more efficient. My biggest complaint about D’A he was pretty clearly coaching for his next job once Lin came onto the scene and he was able to run something close to SSOL. There was clearly time to salvage the season as Woodson proved but he made no effort to tweak the offense to integrate Melo at all- he was willing to let the team self-detruct to show other GMs that SSOL was still a viable offense.

    116. Zanzibar

      BigBlueAL:
      This is great:

      Melo on his music: “I listen to Frank Sinatra a lot. I love Frank, man. … I’m already a mellow guy, but it keeps me super calm.”

      Apropos of the Melo discussion in this thread, wouldn’t it be wild if Melo said his favorite Sinatra song is MY WAY? Those of you who don’t know the song, here are the relevant lyrics:

      Regrets I’ve had a few
      But then again too few to mention
      I did what I had to do
      And saw it through without exemption

      I planned each charted course
      Each careful step along the byway
      And more, much more than this
      I did it my way

    117. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Ladies and gentlemen: post of the year.

      And you sit here calling the man a bitch because he can’t deal with “that.” Big tough guy over here.

      I think a lot people’s issues with White haven’t been with him not playing but rather the adversarial position he took with management from day 1 (or at least very early on). I know for anyone with a long term disability/illness it’s essential to feel like you have some sort of control/agency over your own treatment but White seemed particularly inflexible.

    118. KnickfaninNJ

      Shad0wF0x:
      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/227376/Source-JR-Smith-Likely-To-Test-Free-Agency

      Oh well. I’ll enjoy the reason of this season at very least.

      NBA salaries are not normally distributed at all. Some players make huge salaries but almost no fifth or sixth man (in salary rank on a team) makes more than the Knicks can offer JR Smith. So if a team wants to offer much more, they basically have envision him as a key starter or they have to back load a contract a la Lin to make it hard for the Knicks to compete. I think the Knicks might be able to keep him but they might have to do something creative, like also take out a huge insurance policy against major injury with him as the beneficiary (assuming this doesn’t count against the salary cap). Of course if the Knicks go far in the playoffs and he is a key factor scoring against good defensive teams, other teams are going to be very tempted.

    119. johnno

      By the way, has anyone noticed that, over the last 20 games, the Knicks are 18-2, including 11-1 against playoff teams? With all of the vitriol being spewed here, I figured that maybe people were in a bad mood because they weren’t aware of that fact…

    120. Hubert Davis

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Ladies and gentlemen: post of the year.

      I had a girlfriend with a serious anxiety disorder. Kindest and most thoughtful woman I’ve ever known. Brilliant, too: doing a PhD in philosophy of math and science now, actually. A legitimately talented person (unlike myself, mediocre in many things) who wanted nothing more than to go out into the world and live a life of social and professional “normalcy.”

      That’s the thing with Royce White. And I struggle with a very similar disorder to Royce. The rockets have offered him a wonderful opportunity to have as normal a professional life as possible. I would love to have an employer as accommodating as Houston has been. But Royce was extraordinary benefits that are unrealistic. He wants a 3rd party to be able to tell his employer when he can & can’t play, and he wants to be guaranteed to be paid when that 3rd party says he can’t. Good luck finding that kind of situation anywhere in the universe. Further, he’s been so combative w Rocket mgmt that he’s made it undesirable to hire someone w our disability, which makes people like us more likely to hide it.

      So yeah, he is a bitch. And he can do one as far as I’m concerned.

    121. Z-man

      flossy: Sorry ruru, I’m not arguing this with you. Your blind spot for all things Melo makes it simply not possible to have a realistic conversation with you about this topic. The idea that D’Antoni (or any coach) should have publicly stuck up for a player who was not in shape, did not play well (injured or not), and could not co-exist with his coach or teammates to the extent that he refused to play within the offense or exert effort on defense is ludicrous. That kind of behavior is not acceptable from any player let alone one making $20 mil. Melo’s performance in the first half of last season was not defensible.

      Melo did not report out of shape compared to other NBA players, and certainly not to spite D’Antoni. It was a lockout season and player’s routines were all screwed up. If I recall correctly, he also had two surgeries during that off-season. And just because he argued a few calls and didn’t get back doesn’t mean he played no defense. Chandler won DPOY and he did the same thing numerous times. Did he play well? Not especially, but why is that? Does system and coach mean anything? Seems to now.

      flossy: But the two-year purge of everyone who didn’t fit the Melo-centric universe was ugly, and Melo absolutely did not cover himself in glory for most of last season.

      No, but he didn’t dog it to the extent you are implying either. There wasn’t a lot of hand-wringing by the other Knicks’ players when D’Antoni resigned. In fact, everyone on the team seemed to play better, harder, and smarter. Too bad Lin was already compromised by being run into the ground once D’Antoni decided he was Steve Nash 2.0. Even at $20 million, players are not robots, and if they hate a coach’s game plan, eventually it is going to be reflected in their play.

    122. Hubert Davis

      Follow up:

      The difference between Royce & your girlfriend, THCJ, is that she was brave enough to endure. Royce thinks he’s special enough to not have to. That’s why some people passionately dislike him.

    123. yellowboy90

      All this talk about past trades and FA makes me wonder how will SPortvu data impact the future of trades and FA. Will teams be able to formulate a model player and plug in players to see how close they are.

    124. dogrufus

      thenamestsam:
      I can not fully express how hilarious I find it that Charles Barkley thinks he has what it takes to be an NBA GM. This is a guy who has a whole segment at the beginning of each year devoted to the fact that he doesn’t know which teams prominent NBA role players are on. Man, I wish Phoenix would give him the job (which, unfortunately, they won’t) just so the world could get to watch him crash and burn.

      Could he really be any worse than Isiah?

    125. dogrufus

      Hubert Davis: This is the same Sam Presti who traded Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka-Jeff Green for Durant-Westbrook-Ibaka-Kevin Martin-Kendrick Perkins.

      He’s an overrated executive.“The Presti Model” was never anything more than “luck into Kevin Durant.”

      If you accumulate enough elite picks, it’s not luck that some of them will be great players. That’s the only way to buy low on superstars.

    126. alsep73

      dogrufus: If you accumulate enough elite picks, it’s not luck that some of them will be great players.That’s the only way to buy low on superstars.

      That’s not always true. I can think of plenty of perennial cellar dwellers that frequently botch high lottery picks, and even their successes only turn out to be pretty good.

    127. Z-man

      flossy: As for D’Antoni, no other coach in the league so consistently gets blamed for the no-win situations he inherits.

      Please. D’Antoni didn’t “inherit” anything. He chose the situations he signed for; in particular, it is well-documented that he chose the Knicks over the Bulls. He chose the Lakers, knowing that Nash was over the hill, Kobe is Kobe (not exactly a coach’s pet), and Howard and Gasol are a clunky pairing, especially for his system.

      Maybe ruru is over the top with Melo, but you are just as extreme. D’Antoni was exposed as a sub-par strategist and a poor personnel manager. If you can’t get your $20 mill superstar player to buy in to your nonsense, and then that player instantly becomes an MVP candidate as soon as you are replaced by a guy hired to be your understudy, you suck. Woodson actually did “inherit” everything D’Antoni couldn’t deal with and made it work. Players have universally raved about playing for Woodson, even though he holds them accountable to a degree D’Antoni never did.

      And let’s be honest, do you really think D’Antoni has done anything with the Lakers than any middling coach couldn’t have done this year?

    128. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Hubert Davis:
      Follow up:

      The difference between Royce & your girlfriend, THCJ, is that she was brave enough to endure.Royce thinks he’s special enough to not have to.That’s why some people passionately dislike him.

      I don’t think that White exhibits any kind of “special” treatment. I think he’s held fast to the idea that his disability is his alone, and that the Rockets can either accommodate or release him. I made the mistake of growing tired of asking my girlfriend to accommodate my demands w/r/t her anxiety, when it’s clear in hindsight that if she could have, she would have. White’s the same way. Do you think he wants to be the way he is? To me, it’s no different from asking a paraplegic to quit being a pussy and just stand up.

      I would have understood had the Rockets made the decision to not draft him. But they did. And they can release him if they wish. The public vitriol toward White (you can see it all over the ESPN comment section) makes it appear as though he’s some welfare lackey asking to get paid to do nothing because he’s too lazy or unmotivated to change his ways. That is not the case at all. No one wants that kind of mental strife to continue. You see the same argument by non-depressed persons against clinically depressed persons. “Just man up.” It’s not that way.

    129. Z-man

      Re: Royce White, the Rockets have only themselves to blame. He had a known issue, they rolled the dice and lost (kinda like the Celts did with Sullinger.) On the other hand, nobody picked after White was turned out to be a star anyway, so it wasn’t a bad gamble in a terrible draft class.

    130. AnonymousODG

      flossy:
      Sorry ruru, I’m not arguing this with you.Your blind spot for all things Melo makes it simply not possible to have a realistic conversation with you about this topic.The idea that D’Antoni (or any coach) should have publicly stuck up for a player who was not in shape, did not play well (injured or not), and could not co-exist with his coach or teammates to the extent that he refused to play within the offense or exert effort on defense is ludicrous.That kind of behavior is not acceptable from any player let alone one making $20 mil.Melo’s performance in the first half of last season was not defensible.

      Now, he is absolutely playing better this year and completely deserves to get credit for how well the Knicks have performed this season.The end result of a team built around Melo’s style of play and coached by someone who lets him do more or less whatever he wants is actually quite good.But the two-year purge of everyone who didn’t fit the Melo-centric universe was ugly, and Melo absolutely did not cover himself in glory for most of last season.

      Translation: Melo was “selfishly” forcing a Melo-centric team dynamic onto a subpar team that would rather rely on a handful of promising second-string players. A Melo-centric team dynamic that eventually proved successful, resoundingly so.

      In other words, phuck Melo because he was right this entire time. Ladies and gentlemen, your New York Knicks fans.

    131. AnonymousODG

      Z-man: Please. D’Antoni didn’t “inherit” anything. He chose the situations he signed for; in particular, it is well-documented that he chose the Knicks over the Bulls. He chose the Lakers, knowing that Nash was over the hill, Kobe is Kobe (not exactly a coach’s pet), and Howard and Gasol are a clunky pairing, especially for his system.

      Maybe ruru is over the top with Melo, but you are just as extreme. D’Antoni was exposed as a sub-par strategist and a poor personnel manager. If you can’t get your $20 mill superstar player to buy in to your nonsense, and then that player instantly becomes an MVP candidate as soon as you are replaced by a guy hired to be your understudy, you suck. Woodson actually did “inherit” everything D’Antoni couldn’t deal with and made it work. Players have universally raved about playing for Woodson, even though he holds them accountable to a degree D’Antoni never did.

      And let’s be honest, do you really think D’Antoni has done anything with the Lakers than any middling coach couldn’t have done this year?

      On your last question, a middling coach couldn’t have done something D’Antoni did this year. A middling coach couldn’t have single-handedly ended Kobe Bryant’s career with the Lakers. Many different people have tried and failed. D’Antoni succeeded.

    132. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t think that White exhibits any kind of “special” treatment. I think he’s held fast to the idea that his disability is his alone, and that the Rockets can either accommodate or release him. I made the mistake of growing tired of asking my girlfriend to accommodate my demands w/r/t her anxiety, when it’s clear in hindsight that if she could have, she would have. White’s the same way. Do you think he wants to be the way he is? To me, it’s no different from asking a paraplegic to quit being a pussy and just stand up.

      I would have understood had the Rockets made the decision to not draft him. But they did. And they can release him if they wish. The public vitriol toward White (you can see it all over the ESPN comment section) makes it appear as though he’s some welfare lackey asking to get paid to do nothing because he’s too lazy or unmotivated to change his ways. That is not the case at all. No one wants that kind of mental strife to continue. You see the same argument by non-depressed persons against clinically depressed persons. “Just man up.” It’s not that way.

      While your analogy doesn’t work for me, I essentially agree. The Rockets should just let him go. That said, White should understand that an NBA player should not expect to have disabilities accommodated in the same way that other occupations do. If he is unable to fly, and can’t attend practices and games because of that, he shouldn’t expect that the Rockets (or the NBA) should have to figure out a way to accommodate him, any more than a player who is unable to perform, or who just can’t cut it, should be accommodated.

    133. dogrufus

      Z-man: Please. D’Antoni didn’t “inherit” anything. He chose the situations he signed for; in particular, it is well-documented that he chose the Knicks over the Bulls. He chose the Lakers, knowing that Nash was over the hill, Kobe is Kobe (not exactly a coach’s pet), and Howard and Gasol are a clunky pairing, especially for his system.

      Maybe ruru is over the top with Melo, but you are just as extreme. D’Antoni was exposed as a sub-par strategist and a poor personnel manager. If you can’t get your $20 mill superstar player to buy in to your nonsense, and then that player instantly becomes an MVP candidate as soon as you are replaced by a guy hired to be your understudy, you suck. Woodson actually did “inherit” everything D’Antoni couldn’t deal with and made it work. Players have universally raved about playing for Woodson, even though he holds them accountable to a degree D’Antoni never did.

      And let’s be honest, do you really think D’Antoni has done anything with the Lakers than any middling coach couldn’t have done this year?

      Nash didn’t go over the hill till this yr

    134. citizen

      johnno: That’s one way of looking at it.Another way is that the team is paying him something like $18 million this year to play basketball.If he is healthy (meaning that the doctors have concluded that he does not have any more risk of reinjuring the knee than he would have had pre-injury) and can help the team, then he has an obligation to play.If he is currently 75% of the player that he was before, he is still better than any other guard on that team.Doesn’t he owe it to his teammates, fans and the people who sign his checks to try to help the team win?Disclaimer — we obviously don’t know what the doctors have concluded or advised him, so we are all really speaking hypothetically.

      NBA contracts are insured so it’s not like it’s costing the Bulls any money (I don’t think).
      Amare’s contract, on the other hand…

    135. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man: While your analogy doesn’t work for me, I essentially agree. The Rockets should just let him go. That said, White should understand that an NBA player should not expect to have disabilities accommodated in the same way that other occupations do. If he is unable to fly, and can’t attend practices and games because of that, he shouldn’t expect that the Rockets (or the NBA) should have to figure out a way to accommodate him, any more than a player who is unable to perform, or who just can’t cut it, should be accommodated.

      White’s disability (and that’s what it is; it is not him being a “pussy” any more than a soldier with PTSD is being a “pussy”) was known to the Rockets before they drafted him. They drafted him anyway. They knew he had a severe anxiety disorder and that flying was a trigger for an attack.

      How does the analogy not work? Are you saying that White chooses to be this way? Or can somehow give in a little bit and somehow be less anxious? I don’t get it.

    136. Z-man

      I don’t think personal relationships can be compared to professional/corporate contracts. I agree with you that White should not be criticized for a disability over which he has little control. And I think he and the Rockets had the best mutual intentions going in. And that the best solution is for the Rockets just to flat-our waive/cut him. But beyond that, I think that White’s assertion that he needs to be accommodated to the point that he can show up or not show up as his disability allows is not feasable. Travel by air is an integral part of the job of what is essentially a corporate travel team. You can’t do the job without doing it. If there were an accommodation that would enable him to do the job all of the time, it should be granted (e.g. taking the bus) but no such accommodations are possible. Perhaps he would agree to be heavily sedated for flights, or something like that, it could work. But if there is no possible way for him to get there and do his job consistent with the expectations for all players, I don’t think he should be protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

      So I agree, he isn’t a bitch, pussy, etc., just another guy with something that prevents him from making a living as an NBA player. He deserves empathy, but not preferential treatment.

    137. Juany8

      thenamestsam:
      I’m sorry, but I have to say these two sentences look downright insane next to each other. On the one hand Royce White is a bitch, but on the other hand you don’t know enough about Derek Rose’s situation to pass judgement? Royce White is dealing with some pretty unique issues that NBA teams are obviously not well equipped to deal with and that are not well understood in society. Calling him a “bitch” is ridiculous.

      Have you read his twitter during this whole saga? The whole time he’s been calling the rockets out, pouting, and not showing up after saying he would period. Delonte west and Ron Artest have mental issues too, they don’t act like they deserve special treatment for it, and they’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they deserve to be in the NBA. If rosé was out tweeting and making a fool of himself, I’d say bad shit about him too, but he’s mostly keeping his mouth shut and being ambiguous. Royce white decided that he had to be a fucking distraction to the rockets.

      This is NOT about his ability to fly or not, or his mental issues. This is an immature young man who’s asking for privileges not a single other player in the NBA has ever had, and who’s making a hissy bit about it when he doesn’t get his way.

      You can’t choose to be less anxious, but you can choose to show up to goddam practice. You can show up to d-league games when you’re sent down. Royce white chose to do neither, and he blamed the rockets for it. It’s been ridiculous, he doesn’t just get a free pass because he has some anxiety issues.

    138. Juany8

      Hubert Davis: That’s the thing with Royce White.And I struggle with a very similar disorder to Royce.The rockets have offered him a wonderful opportunity to have as normal a professional life as possible.I would love to have an employer as accommodating as Houston has been.But Royce was extraordinary benefits that are unrealistic.He wants a 3rd party to be able to tell his employer when he can & can’t play, and he wants to be guaranteed to be paid when that 3rd party says he can’t.Good luck finding that kind of situation anywhere in the universe.Further, he’s been so combative w Rocket mgmt that he’s made it undesirable to hire someone w our disability, which makes people like us more likely to hide it.

      So yeah, he is a bitch.And he can do one as far as I’m concerned.

      Thank you Hubert, this is exactly my point. I don’t have a problem with his disability. I have the problem with his attitude and behavior. I’ve had friends with mental issues, people who tell me they take pills just to feel normal and be able to function around people, and they all hate what he’s doing. Not one of them goes around trying to force people to accommodate to their very personal and very difficult issue. The rockets made every effort to make this work and White not only refused, he dragged their name through the mud publically. He is not helping the cause of people with mental diseases.

    139. Unreason

      citizen: Amare’s contract, on the other hand…

      Speaking of Amare, I expect we’ll see him this post season and I’m ambivalent about it. I agree with those who’ve said his return will open up lots of good stuff on offense. I haven’t seen as much improvement in his pick setting as others have, but his post play, both scoring and passing, was a revelation. I think he and Melo will play well together on that end and make others more effective in the process. Not quite as sure about him and JR, but I’m cautiously hopeful.

      I’m worried though that he’ll screw up the team D, which IMO will be more important to winning than an improved offense. Maybe his mistakes are just more glaring, or maybe they’re more frequent and important. I don’t know, but I still don’t think he’s good at team D. Actually, I think he’s just plain bad at it. I’m hoping that Chandler will be back to full strength by that time and able offset Amare’s impact a bit.

    140. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: They knew he had a severe anxiety disorder and that flying was a trigger for an attack.

      Like someone with an injury history (say, Jared Sullinger) you hope when you draft him that his knee can be treated and rehabilitated to the point where it isn’t an issue anymore. Then before camp starts, the knee blows out and there isn’t any treatment that could make him NBA ready, except for maybe some radical surgery/injections of rooster coxcomb. The player has a morbid fear of surgery and is allergic to rooster protein, so he decides not to show up to team meetings or physical therapy. Does that guy get special accommodations because his knee was a “known issue?” Is he entitled to be compensated like an NBA player because of his “disability?”

      My understanding is that White stopped showing up to assignments with the NBA and D-League teams even when flight was not an issue. Would the Rockets be expected to have known that this was a predictable part of White’s anxiety disorder, or should it be assumed that the scope of the disorder was limited to flying? Is White refusing to participate in team-ordered (and medically standard) therapies and medicines that have been proven to be effective in treating such disorders?

      It’s a fascinating case. If White is being “uncooperative,” would it be like a player (say, Derrick Rose) refusing to have surgery to repair his ACL, but claiming that he was entitled to get paid in full for the duration of his contract? To what degree is a player obligated to follow “reasonable” protocol in treating injuries and illness, whether physical or psychlogical?

    141. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: This is NOT about his ability to fly or not, or his mental issues. This is an immature young man who’s asking for privileges not a single other player in the NBA has ever had, and who’s making a hissy bit about it when he doesn’t get his way.

      You are really missing the point here. I am glad you don’t work in mental health.

    142. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man: Would the Rockets be expected to have known that this was a predictable part of White’s anxiety disorder, or should it be assumed that the scope of the disorder was limited to flying? Is White refusing to participate in team-ordered (and medically standard) therapies and medicines that have been proven to be effective in treating such disorders?

      Yes. A serious anxiety disorder is not just about flying. That would be called a phobia. This is anxiety. You can’t expect everything to be fine so long as he stays away from so-called “triggers.” Generalized anxiety is omnipresent in a person’s life.

      White should also have agency in his choice of treatments. Anti-anxiety medication is highly addictive and often causes lifelong dependency issues. People don’t refuse to take Lorazepam because they wish to remain ill. That would be ridiculous.

      They should cut him. That’s the bottom line. Asking a person with a serious anxiety disorder to be less “immature” is totally ridiculous. The lack of empathy on the part of Juany8 is astounding.

      Honestly, do you tell soldiers with PTSD to man up? To mature a little? Try to convince someone with PTSD that because he’s no longer in Iraq, he’s safe. That’s how mental illness works, right?

    143. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You are really missing the point here. I am glad you don’t work in mental health.

      No I think you are. You said your girlfriend got a phd. Did she need unique rules put in place so that she didn’t have to turn in an assignment or show up to class when she had an attack? Perhaps more importantly, did she demand such treatment, and then refuse to show up or do anything until she got her way, hurling public accusations at her university? If she didn’t, then you are insulting your ex girlfriend by comparing her to Royce White.

      Are we supposed to excuse Artest from his brawl in the stands? Or allow Delonte West to just walk around with unlicensed guns because he’s bipolar? You don’t just get a free pass in life if you have a disability. The Rockets tried to work with White. White refused to work with anyone. This is not about flying. This is not about panic attacks. This is about immaturity, which the mentally ill are not somehow exempt from. It would be one thing if White had showed up to practices and then started having small issues, eventually leading to some missed games or slow development. White just refused to show up and blamed the Rockets, who had already gone farther out of their way to accommodate him more than any of the other players on the roster. He made a big show of it all too, how is that going to play out in a locker room exactly? Other guys are just supposed to accept that their teammate feels like he can skip practice when HIS doctor tells him so? How long before we have guys missing games for a twisted ankle because their private GP said so?

    144. Unreason

      Re Royce White
      Mental problems directly affect behavior, including communicative behavior, and they impact emotions and thinking including one’s sense of entitlement. Physical problems don’t affect those things directly, so the analogy fails there IMO.

      Artest and West have had a negative impact on their teams and on their teams’ image. Behavior problems whatever the cause, pose that additional risk, obviously. The Rockets’ handling of White has been commendable as far as I know. Because of that, I think that the impact on their image has been good.

      Judgments about White are complicated because its hard to know how much responsibility to assign when people’s behavior is affected by a mental illness. Too little is known about the real meaning of volitional behavior, responsibility, character etc. to be sure how to do that. It’s probably pretty easy for most people who remember themselves as young men to cut a young guy facing extreme stress some slack. Deciding how much slack to cut him before judging him harshly is harder, for me at least.

    145. AvonBarksdale

      My life was crippled for years due to issues with anxiety, i couldn’t do a lot of things cause of my panic attacks it was awful. Royce White is truly a bitch no doubt…i only overcame my anxiety when i faced it head on and repeatedly, it was a battle and sometimes i get impending doom and dread tingling up my brain but i can’t ask for a special bus and team of doctors to come help. Another thing, if you can’t go anywhere and you can’t practice at least stay in some kind of shape he was getting plumpy in the off time.

    146. Unreason

      AvonBarksdale:
      My life was crippled for years due to issues with anxiety, i couldn’t do a lot of things cause of my panic attacks it was awful. Royce White is truly a bitch no doubt…i only overcame my anxiety when i faced it head on and repeatedly, it was a battle and sometimes i get impending doom and dread tingling up my brain but i can’t ask for a special bus and team of doctors to come help. Another thing, if you can’t go anywhere and you can’t practice at least stay in some kind of shape he was getting plumpy in the off time.

      So having gone through something like it yourself and knowing how you handled it puts you in a better position to judge. Without that experience, I still find it hard. It’s not hard to dislike how he’s handled it. It’s hard to know whether I’d have been any different if I were in his shoes. I hope I would have been but I can’t know. Plus, I do know that most people are pretty good at giving themselves the benefit of the doubt and dismissing the seriousness of what other people have to deal with. So I’m as likely as the next guy to be guilty of that when I have a knee jerk judgmental response to something I hear about White, which I’ve definitely had.

    147. Juany8

      Again where this all fails is that he told the Rockets it would all be fine, and that he would be happy to work with them to overcome his issues and play for them. He managed to fly to the vegas summer league and play pretty well there. It was only after he signed a contract that all those other issues started cropping up. First the bus, which he got. Then he (allegedly) asked the Rockets to give him playing time in order to help him treat his condition. Then he refused to go to the D-League, after announcing that he was agreeing to work with the Rockets to do just that. He started a public war on twitter, even directly calling out daryl morey at one point.

      Sad thing is I had patience for him. I’ve known people with anxiety and depression issues. I had to take a girl to the hospital because she cut her wrists too deep once. None of them acted like they were entitled to special treatment. They fought to get better too, and to learn to accommodate to other people just as much as they hoped other people would accommodate to them. They don’t draw attention to the issue, and realize that at the end of the day it is their life and their struggle, that they’re not going to magically be better or get a free ride.

      One of these friends was excited when White came to the Rockets. He thought White was going to show that people with anxiety could leave productive lives and inspire others to be more honest and open about their own conditions. And he is the reason I have such strong feelings about White. Instead of inspiring anything, White is confirming every single negative stereotype about people with mental conditions in this country. He is acting irrationally and immaturely, and his very public twitter feud has only brought negative attention to the cause he was supposedly fighting for. His immaturity and entitlement is his own, and he makes successful, hardworking people who struggle with similar conditions look like crap.

    148. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: He thought White was going to show that people with anxiety could leave productive lives and inspire others to be more honest and open about their own conditions. And he is the reason I have such strong feelings about White. Instead of inspiring anything, White is confirming every single negative stereotype about people with mental conditions in this country. He is acting irrationally and immaturely, and his very public twitter feud has only brought negative attention to the cause he was supposedly fighting for. His immaturity and entitlement is his own, and he makes successful, hardworking people who struggle with similar conditions look like crap.

      And so because some people are able to “quit being a bitch,” Royce White should be able to? I know guys who have overcome combat-induced PTSD through heavy medication and guys who have dived into addiction from the same kinds of PTSD.

      White is not obliged to be the poster child of overcoming disability simply because other people are too quick to judge those suffering from disorders that are difficult to empathize with from the outside.

      Like, go into an AA meeting and see how much judgment there is between the sober and the newly recovering. Everyone’s personal disease is their own and it should not be your privilege to assess White’s. If you were an NBA GM, you could cut him and I don’t think I would object to it. And yes, Royce White may not be entitled to a job in the NBA. I would not argue that he is because, like an alcoholic who can’t show up to work, he is not performing the duty that is reasonably expected of an NBA player. But that doesn’t mean he deserves your scorn.

    149. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: And so because some people are able to “quit being a bitch,” Royce White should be able to? I know guys who have overcome combat-induced PTSD through heavy medication and guys who have dived into addiction from the same kinds of PTSD.

      White is not obliged to be the poster child of overcoming disability simply because other people are too quick to judge those suffering from disorders that are difficult to empathize with from the outside.

      Like, go into an AA meeting and see how much judgment there is between the sober and the newly recovering. Everyone’s personal disease is their own and it should not be your privilege to assess White’s. If you were an NBA GM, you could cut him and I don’t think I would object to it. And yes, Royce White may not be entitled to a job in the NBA. I would not argue that he is because, like an alcoholic who can’t show up to work, he is not performing the duty that is reasonably expected of an NBA player. But that doesn’t mean he deserves your scorn.

      he has my scorn because he presents myself as the poster child of overcoming disability. He started the whole thing, it’s his twitter that’s filled with messages about anxiety troopers and fighting the fight. He also signed a contract with the Rockets. He wasn’t required to do that, and that contract implies that White is going to try to be a goddam NBA player. Notice how he conveniently didn’t ask for one single thing until he had the contract signed and he knew the Rockets were at least somewhat stuck. If he had been upfront about his actual requirements, and not tried to present himself as a “poster child” for the mentally ill, I wouldn’t really care about the situation. You’re right that a mere inability to play in the NBA does not deserve my scorn. It’s his own personal immaturity that draws my scorn.

    150. Z-man

      Juany, on the other hand, this is a guy who undeniably has the NBA package and is probably throwing it all away, along with potentially millions in future earnings. He’s hurting himself way more than he could ever hurt the Rockets or you. Clearly he is an immature 22yo. Yet, the fact is, he had a known issue and the gamble taken by the Rockets has not panned out. You are sort of implying that they got scammed by White, which I think is unfair.

    151. Juany8

      Z-man:
      Juany, on the other hand, this is a guy who undeniably has the NBA package and is probably throwing it all away, along with potentially millions in future earnings. He’s hurting himself way more than he could ever hurt the Rockets or you. Clearly he is an immature 22yo. Yet, the fact is, he had a known issue and the gamble taken by the Rockets has not panned out. You are sort of implying that they got scammed by White, which I think is unfair.

      How is he hurting himself? Just because he has athletic ability doesn’t give him some sort of predestined right to play in the NBA. There’s a perfectly good chance he would have flamed out anyways, and he would have still kept the money from his rookie contract. He’s said more than once he doesn’t really mind walking away from basketball, it’s not like he’s super passionate to play and the Rockets just won’t let him.

      I don’t know if White planned to scam the Rockets. I do know that he said he would be fine to play, he signed joined the draft and then signed his contract over a month after the draft took place. During that whole time, he did not make a single reference to his need for a bus, or special protocol. He was not on twitter calling our Daryl Morey and making a big scene. He was making an effort to be a team player and playing the part well. Almost immediately after, before the season had even started, he started making demands, and becoming more public and troublesome. I know if I was the Rockets, I would wonder why none of this came up before they guaranteed him a couple of million dollars. And they went along and helped him anyways! They were patient, played the part, and have gone out of their way to make this work. Also coincidentally, he started being at least somewhat more cooperative when they started fining him for refusing to show up to work.

    152. MJG1789

      Meanwhile in the world of basketball, the Bulls just did everything in their power to lose that game but the Nets blew it anyway. Cool.

    153. Juany8

      I may be a bit off base here, so I apologize to anyone who’s offended if I am, but I think it’s actually disrespectful to treat White as if he’s some diseased human being incapable of making rational decisions. By excusing his poor behavior due to his illness, you’re treating him like a child who only acts like this because he can’t control himself. People with mental conditions are not simply damaged goods that can’t do anything about their condition. The people he’s hurting most of all are the people he claims to represent, and until they no longer have to explain that he does not speak for them or anyone but himself, I’m going to have a major problem with his behavior.

    154. Z-man

      Changing the subject, is it fair to say that Lin’s knee injury last year was like a winning lottery ticket? If he was exposed vs. the Heat the same way he was exposed so far vs. the Thunder, nobody would have offered him that ridiculous contract.

      Juany, in the last thread,you said:

      “…if we just look at the cap situation, the trade off talent wise would be Lin and Prigs, not Felton. I don’t know that I’d take prigs over Lin talent wise the next 3 years, so looking at it from the perspective that I don’t give a shit how big dolan’s tax bill is (I’m not paying for it) it was still a smart move to match. I did think he’d play better than he has though, and I thought he’d stay well known enough to always have some dumb suitor. As it turns out most teams seem to like the fact that he’s not doing much. Makes them look less dumb for passing up on him when he was out there for free.

      He is being pretty badly outplayed by Patrick Beverly though….”

      First, I think that you CAN’T ignore the cap situation, and that it’s not fair to single out Dolan’s cap approach relative to other owners; each decision should be judged on its own merits. Given the same situation, any prudent owner would have had second thoughts bout matching, and most probably wouldn’t have matched.

      Second, Prigioni may be a better player right now, and for the next 1-2 years, than Lin.

      Third, what does it tell you that a mid-year D-League pick-up who was drafted in the 2nd round in 2009 comes up and outplays Lin? And that dollar for dollar, the Knicks have 3 PGs that are all better than Lin, for virtually the same money?

    155. Juany8

      Z-man:
      Changing the subject, is it fair to say that Lin’s knee injury last year was like a winning lottery ticket? If he was exposed vs. the Heat the same way he was exposed so far vs. the Thunder, nobody would have offered him that ridiculous contract.

      Juany, in the last thread,you said:

      “…if we just look at the cap situation, the trade off talent wise would be Lin and Prigs, not Felton. I don’t know that I’d take prigs over Lin talent wise the next 3 years, so looking at it from the perspective that I don’t give a shit how big dolan’s tax bill is (I’m not paying for it) it was still a smart move to match. I did think he’d play better than he has though, and I thought he’d stay well known enough to always have some dumb suitor. As it turns out most teams seem to like the fact that he’s not doing much. Makes them look less dumb for passing up on him when he was out there for free.

      He is being pretty badly outplayed by Patrick Beverly though….”

      First, I think that you CAN’T ignore the cap situation, and that it’s not fair to single out Dolan’s cap approach relative to other owners; each decision should be judged on its own merits. Given the same situation, any prudent owner would have had second thoughts bout matching, and most probably wouldn’t have matched.

      Second, Prigioni may be a better player right now, and for the next 1-2 years, than Lin.

      Third, what does it tell you that a mid-year D-League pick-up who was drafted in the 2nd round in 2009 comes up and outplays Lin? And that dollar for dollar, the Knicks have 3 PGs that are all better than Lin, for virtually the same money?

      The cap space wasn’t totally relevant because the Knicks will only be able to add players through small exceptions anyways. So it was just Dolan’s money, of which he makes plenty :p You really don’t have to convince me Lin has issues…

    156. Z-man

      I’m not specifically directing my comment at you, more to anyone who once believed (and might still believe) that matching Lin was a no-brainer. As to adding players, what about K-Mart, Birdman, Beverley, Copeland, and even Lin and Novak last year? Why throw away tens of millions on an unproven and injured commodity? In hindsight, was not signing Lin a good decision?

    157. Juany8

      Z-man:
      I’m not specifically directing my comment at you, more to anyone who once believed (and might still believe) that matching Lin was a no-brainer. As to adding players, what about K-Mart, Birdman, Beverley, Copeland, and even Lin and Novak last year? Why throw away tens of millions on an unproven and injured commodity? In hindsight, was not signing Lin a good decision?

      Not disagreeing with you, but as I understand it, the Knicks would not have been able to sign anyone beyond their exceptions either way. Keep in mind that Lin’s hold is only $5 million the first 2 years. It’s only the last year that’s a problem. But yea I’d say the Knicks made the right decision in hind sight, but I don’t think they planned on everything working out the way it did. I don’t think they wanted Lin to just walk away, but who knows?

    158. jon abbey

      ruruland: So, in that article it says Chandler was sick again. Are you fucking kidding me?

      that actually makes me feel a bit better about him improving going forward.

    159. citizen

      Z-man:
      Changing the subject, is it fair to say that Lin’s knee injury last year was like a winning lottery ticket? If he was exposed vs. the Heat the same way he was exposed so far vs. the Thunder, nobody would have offered him that ridiculous contract.

      if Lin had been exposed against the Heat last year, and nobody offered him a ridiculous contract, then wouldn’t the Knicks have been able to keep a young point guard with potential at a much lower price? It’s interesting to speculate on whether the Knicks would have declined to match even a reasonable non-poison pill offer, considering that many here have insinuated that they never intended to keep him anyway

    160. llcoolbp

      ruruland: So, in that article it says Chandler was sick again. Are you fucking kidding me?

      chandler has the freaking immune system of a newborn in daycare. It looks like if he gets sneezed on he gets sick. Melo needs to be in perfect well oiled shape to give peak performance. It makes me worry going forward in these playoffs, as most of our hopes rest on these fragile guys shoulders (not even including amare in the this discusssion). Knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed.

    161. ruruland

      llcoolbp: chandler has the freaking immune system of a newborn in daycare. It looks like if he gets sneezed on he gets sick. Melo needs to be in perfect well oiled shape to give peak performance. It makes me worry going forward in these playoffs, as most of our hopes rest on these fragile guys shoulders (not even including amare in the this discusssion). Knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed.

      I’m 100 % with you. They are all injury-prone and suffer pretty dramatically if fighting through it, as most guys do of course, with a couple of exceptions. Even Kobe was much better this year, finally healthy.

    162. Juany8

      ruruland: I’m 100 % with you.They are all injury-prone and suffer pretty dramatically if fighting through it, as most guys do of course, with a couple of exceptions. Even Kobe was much better this year, finally healthy.

      You know I honestly thought you used to just Cherry pick a lot when talking about Melo’s injuries, but after seeing games this year where he could barely jump above the rim (ad seeing the same thing last year) I suspect you’re right. He is somewhat injury prone, and he is just not good when he tries to play through it. Remember Felton injuring his finger early on and shooting more? Some of these guys might be too tough haha

    163. Z-man

      citizen: if Lin had been exposed against the Heat last year, and nobody offered him a ridiculous contract, then wouldn’t the Knicks have been able to keep a young point guard with potential at a much lower price? It’s interesting to speculate on whether the Knicks would have declined to match even a reasonable non-poison pill offer, considering that many here have insinuated that they never intended to keep him anyway

      Possibly, but it seems that it all came down to the poison pill. I think the Knicks would have matched the original Houston offer. And had Lin not played well, the offer might never have come, or possibly would have been lower. Whatever, my only gripe is with anyone who castigated ownership/management for having no brain in a no-brainer situation. For me, it was always a 50-50 proposition, or thereabouts. I actually thought Lin played well enough this year, so this isn’t hating on the guy. Just very happy for the team we have, no regrets!

    164. Juany8

      Alright the Lebron love has gotten a little too over the top lately. He’s the best player in the NBA sure, but that doesn’t mean he’s the best at every single thing you can do on a basketball court. People talk about him guarding all 5 positions and ignore that guarding Perkins or Camby isn’t exactly a monster accomplishment. Sure he occasionally switches onto smaller point guards, like with Rose a few years back, but he never even attempted to guard Dirk in the Finals they lost, and he only guarded Melo and KD part time.

      When he dedicates himself to shut a perimeter player down he might be the best in the league, but players like Asik, Noah, and Marc Gasol are involved in pretty much every defensive possession, and are usually the main line of defense. He gets to take breaks and just roam around! I’m not calling him a bad defender, he’s the best wing defender in the league and should easily be on the All-NBA team. He’s on another level compared to all the other wing stars when it comes to defense. But that doesn’t mean he has as much impact as the big men who have to be constantly guarding pick and rolls, trying to either block shots or take charges, and then taking on the opposition’s biggest player for a rebound. Next thing you know we’ll be calling Lebron the best passer in the league when Rondo, Chris Paul, and Rubio are still playing.

    Comments are closed.