Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, October 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Mar 10 2013)

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Battle of wounded knee might be Stat’s last stand (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:39:55 GMT)
    You never know how these things work out, but you might have seen the last of Amar’e Stoudemire. Maybe he comes back in six weeks for Mike Woodson and overcomes another knee injury â?? they never seem to stop now. But maybe this is the one that makes him hang it up, even if he’s only 30.

  • [New York Daily News] Lupica: Woodson has brought Knicks from nowhere to first place (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:33:44 GMT)
    Knicks fans need to understand something, whether their team got a couple of games off LeBron or not. Their team isn’t as good as the Heat, with or without Amar’e Stoudemire.

  • [New York Daily News] Stat surgery overshadows Knicks win over Jazz (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 03:12:26 GMT)
    The forthcoming incision on Amar’e Stoudemire’s right knee is also a potentially fatal wound to the Knicks season. Coach Mike Woodson looked downtrodden before Saturday’s 113-84 win over the Jazz, just as the team announced that Stoudemire would need a right knee debridement, a surgery that would take him out of action for six weeks.

  • [New York Times] Jennings, Ellis Lead Bucks Past Warriors, 103-93 (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 05:15:44 GMT)
    Brandon Jennings had 31 points and 10 assists, Monta Ellis scored 26 points against his former team and the Milwaukee Bucks pulled away late to beat the Golden State Warriors 103-93 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Balanced Grizzlies Trounce the Hornets (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 04:13:50 GMT)
    Mike Conley scored 22 points, and seven Memphis players finished in double figures as the Grizzlies won their fourth straight game.

  • [New York Times] Dragic Helps Suns Beat Harden, Rockets 107-105 (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 03:57:39 GMT)
    Goran Dragic scored 13 of his 18 points and delivered a key hustle play in the fourth quarter to help the Phoenix Suns beat the Houston Rockets 107-105 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Win 13th in a Row at Home (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 03:39:54 GMT)
    Ty Lawson matched his season high with 32 points, including 14 in the fourth quarter, and the Denver Nuggets beat the injury-depleted Minnesota Timberwolves 111-88 Saturday night to stretch their home winning streak to 13 games, their longest in 14 years.

  • [New York Times] Nets 93, Hawks 80: Deron Williams Directs Nets to Victory at Atlanta (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 03:03:08 GMT)
    A night after his 3-point bonanza, Deron Williams was a modest 5 of 13 from the field, but he calmly and efficiently led the Nets to a win over the Hawks.

  • [New York Times] Wizards Finally Get Win Over Lowly Bobcats 104-87 (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:51:50 GMT)
    The Washington Wizards, one of the few NBA teams who can actually call the Charlotte Bobcats a nemesis, did their bit to rectify that notion Saturday night, with Trevor Ariza scoring a season-high 26 points in a 104-87 victory.

  • [New York Times] Balanced Grizzlies Beat Hornets 96-85 (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:48:56 GMT)
    Mike Conley scored 22 points, seven Memphis players finished in double figures and the Grizzlies won their fourth straight with a 96-85 victory over the New Orleans Hornets on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 113, Jazz 84: Knicks’ Stoudemire Needs Operation on What Had Been His Good Knee (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:41:16 GMT)
    The Knicks did not let the news of Amar’e Stoudemire’s coming six-week absence affect them as they rolled to victory against Utah.

  • [New York Times] Knicks Rout Jazz Without Anthony and Stoudemire (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:30:56 GMT)
    J.R. Smith scored 24 points and the New York Knicks shook off the absence of Carmelo Anthony and the shock of Amare Stoudemire needing more knee surgery to rout the slumping Utah Jazz 113-84 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Lopez, Blatche Lead Nets Past Atlanta, 93-80 (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 01:42:45 GMT)
    Brook Lopez and Andray Blatche each scored 18 points, Deron Williams added 17 and the Brooklyn Nets won their third straight game with a 93-80 victory over the Atlanta Hawks on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Stoudemire Having Knee Surgery, Could Miss 6 Weeks (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:49:06 GMT)
    Amare Stoudemire needs surgery on his right knee and is expected to miss six weeks, a stunning blow to the New York Knicks as they chase the Atlantic Division title.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Stoudemire Out 6 Weeks For Knee Operation (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:20:30 GMT)
    Knicks forward Amar’e Stoudemire had been playing well since returning from a left knee injury. Now he is expected to miss the rest of the regular season to recover from surgery on his right knee.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Woody: Copeland deserves time (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 01:09:27 EDT)
    If there’s one player on the Knicks who’s definitely taken advantage of his slim minutes, it’s Chris Copeland.

    Chris Copeland
    #14 SFNew York Knicks
    2013 STATS

    GM33
    PPG6.5
    RPG1.3
    APG0.3
    FG%.485
    FT%.788

    Entering Saturday, the forward was averaging 6.5 points in about 12 minutes per game, and tonight in the Knicks’ big win, he scored 12 points in only seven fourth-quarter minutes. He showed off his inside-out scoring versatility once again, and now that Carmelo Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire are banged up, Mike Woodson knows that he’s got to play the 28-year-old rookie more.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] K-Mart ready for his close-up (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:42:06 EDT)
    Kenyon Martin is a veteran, so he didn’t pout or panic after playing all of five minutes in his first 12 days with the Knicks.
    “I just waited my turn; I was being patient,” the 35-year-old Martin said. “I knew my time would come.”
    Now, Kenyon’s time is here.
    With Amar’e Stoudemire expected to miss approximately six weeks due to right knee surgery, the Knicks will need Martin to fill the void as the first big men off of their bench.
    “It’s unfortunate that you have to benefit from someone’s injury, but I’m here, so I’m going to take advantage of it,” Martin said.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Novak finds his flow vs. Jazz (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:17:03 EDT)
    In their blowout 113-84 win over the Jazz on Saturday night, the Knicks had one of their most efficient games of the new year. They shot 50.7 percent from the field — their highest mark since Feb. 2 — and finished with 21 assists and only 12 turnovers.

    That difference stemmed from the Knicks getting creative in their half-court sets without Carmelo Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire to lead them offensively. Mike Woodson not only put the explosive and play-making J.

  • [New York Post] For Knicks, no Amar’e, no problem (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 04:33:49 -0500)
    There were no Amar’e Stoudemire spinning, post-up buckets or hard drives to the hole by Carmelo Anthony.
    But there was plenty of spirited defense, 3-point missiles from Steve Novak and dunks from J.R. Smith as the Knicks destroyed the slumping Jazz last night, 113-84, at the Garden.
    Stoudemire…

  • [New York Post] Surgery to sideline Amar’e for remainder of regular season (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 04:25:02 -0500)
    Call it a $100 million blow to the head.
    The Knicks’ season got rocked again last night as Amar’e Stoudemire will have his second knee debridement surgery in four months, putting him out six weeks, ending his regular season and putting him out until the first round of the…

  • [New York Post] Untimely demise of Stoudemire’s star (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 04:06:27 -0500)
    Amar’e Stoudemire took the money and the Broadway stage, just before LeBron James decided to take his talents to South Beach, and announced, “The Knicks are back,â? and even though everyone knew that was not the case, it was something â?? a shining light of hope at the end of…

  • [New York Post] Team’s depth, resolve faces biggest challenge yet (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 03:13:55 -0500)
    Every day it seems, the Knicks face another test of their depth and resolve.The latest challenge to their talent and resolve came in the stunning news last night that Amar’e Stoudemire will be lost for six weeks with a right knee problem. Stoudemire missed the first two months…

  • [New York Post] After losing Amar’e for season and with tough trip ahead, Knicks devour Jazz (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:35:30 -0500)
    There were no Amar’e Stoudemire spinning, post-up buckets or hard drives to the hole by Carmelo Anthony.
    But there was plenty of spirited defense, 3-point missiles from Steve Novak and dunks from J.R. Smith as the Knicks destroyed the slumping Jazz Saturday night, 113-84, at the Garden.
    Stoudemire…

  • [New York Newsday] Chris Copeland gets his chance, takes full advantage (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 00:05:00 EST)
    The Knicks' rotation is going to just keep spinning, and that could be good news for Chris Copeland.

  • 54 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Mar 10 2013)

    1. jon abbey

      I’m sure someone has studied this, but I wonder how useful a top post scorer really is in the post-Shaq-in-his-prime NBA, especially now in the era of LeBron/Durant. one thing that makes this hard to determine is that some of them are awful defenders like Amar’e and Lee, but it is interesting that the clearly best two teams in the league have very little post scoring.

    2. johnlocke

      Was at the game last night. Awesome win. Crowd went berserk on two occasions —the JR Smith cradle dunk and the Steve Novak dribble drive floater off the glass—hilarious. Copeland also got a nice hand from the crowd when he entered.

    3. AHouston20

      I don’t have Synergy but I seem to remember someone/somewhere saying that Lebron and Wade were two of the top 5 post scorers on a Pts. Per possession rating. Miami has the ability to run their offense through the post with those 2. They aren’t completely bereft of post scoring

    4. jon abbey

      well, a traditional post scorer then, a guy who is there every possession, like Shaq or Hakeem.

    5. Unreason

      Amare should not play in the post season this year unless he and everyone else agrees his contributions are worth the high risk to his career and potential to contribute for the remainder of his contract.

      To me playing him again this year would be the definition of shortsightedness, whether he is declared “ready” and “wants to play” or not. Players can’t say they don’t want to play even when they know it’s a stupid idea without paying a high price. They might well say “Yeah sure, I wear women’s underwear during games; lacey pink thongs to be precise. What’s it to you?!”

      D Rose’s conservative comeback schedule is rapidly using up the social capital of his gargantuan likability humility and bring-it-every-night rep. No one’s ripping him yet but it’s talked about with a not so subtle “We’re cuttin’ you some slack because we still love you… for now” subtext. Like “I know the kind of tough player D Rose is and he’s not the kind of pathetic jelly of a man who would choose to lounge around in rehab sipping protein shakes when his team needs him desperately. He’ll be back next week, trust me”.

      It can’t take many more brutal lessons for Woodson and the med staff to understand the need to manage injury risk more conservatively for both the team’s and the player’s sake, can it?

      Beyond Amare staying out till next season, I hope Melo doesn’t return till the Clippers game on the 17th and that with Camby back, Chandler’s mpg stays near 25 for the next few weeks. I’d prefer everyone stay below 30 mpg for the rest of the reg season actually.

    6. Owen

      I agree with that. I do think players have some say when the come back.

      Been a big week and a big week ahead as well. Good day for all the knickerbloggers out there to rest up…..

      Nuggets on Wednesday is going to be spicy if we get Melo back….

    7. BigBlueAL

      Im looking at this week the Golden St, Portland and Utah games. Im assuming losses (potentially ugly ones) to Denver and the Clippers. Just want to win 2 out of 3 of the other games which is certainly possible if Melo is playing. Even w/o him they should win at least 1 if not possibly 2 of them.

      I will happily take a 2-3 trip out West, wont be heart broken if they only win 1. Just dont want to lose all 5.

    8. d-mar

      Tomorrow is the key game to try and somehow win. We’ve seen it before, losses on these West coast trips can mount quickly and before you know it, you’re looking at 0-5 and a team with shattered confidence.

      Gotta take down GS, they’re in a slump and probably our best chance for a W on this trip.

    9. Z-man

      Also, the Amare injury might be a blessing in disguise. First, it eliminates the “Should Amare start? and “Can Amare play with Melo and/or Chandler?” talk. Second, it offers an opportunity to define several roles more clearly, e.g. Martin, JR, Copeland, Shump. Third, it brings Camby back into the rotation, who I think is an essential element to playoff success unless Sheed heals quickly.

      In a nutshell, it helps define us, which we need to do quickly as the playoff picture unfolds.

      Melo, on the other hand, needs to come back healthy, and fast!

    10. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      Heat with an easy win today vs the Pacers.

      Wait, Indiana, who according to the experts is the only team in the East that can stand up to the Heat, got waxed at home? At least we put up a fight.

    11. jon abbey

      that was in Miami, FWIW, ours was in NY. the whole Eastern Conference playoffs is looking like a formality at this point.

    12. Z-man

      jon abbey:
      that was in Miami, FWIW, ours was in NY. the whole Eastern Conference playoffs is looking like a formality at this point.

      Yeah, but wouldn’t it be fun to get into the ECFs and find out?

    13. Owen

      I am going to dissent from the notion that losing Amare has any silver lining. He was playing really well…..

      I agree with Jon about the Heat. They are looking amazing. It’s as close to a formality as I can remember.

      It’s really amazing how bad the eastern conference is. How frequently have 5 of the top 6 teams been from one conference. Probably more than I realize. Disparity just seems very strong this year….

    14. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      You know what I hate the most about the Amar’e injury?

      0.0% chance of him being traded, down from 0.3% when he was shooting 65% TS.

      Surprise!

      P.S. He’s got a max contract.

    15. rohank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      You know what I hate the most about the Amar’e injury?

      0.0% chance of him being traded, down from 0.3% when he was shooting 65% TS.

      Surprise!

      P.S. He’s got a max contract.

      How come you only surface when bad stuff is happening to our team. I’d like to see the stats on that one.

    16. lavor postell

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      You know what I hate the most about the Amar’e injury?
      0.0% chance of him being traded, down from 0.3% when he was shooting 65% TS.

      Surprise!

      P.S. He’s got a max contract.

      Are you gloating over the fact that one of our key contributors hurt his knee yet again? Not to mention I think we can all agree that STAT is a pretty awesome dude who has been great this year with accepting his shift in role. Kind of harsh I think, but that’s just my two cents.

    17. massive

      The Heat, as a team, aren’t very amazing. The Spurs and OKC are amazing teams to me because they have balance and the top players are equal in importance. The Knicks were an amazing team to start the year (and would still be if they had health). Miami just seems like a team driven by LeBron’s excellence as no player comes close to matching his importance in Miami, and there isn’t much balance outside of the interchangeable parts known as “perimeter shooters.” I can’t call them an amazing team because it takes away from how great LeBron is. He’s the engine that powers Miami and he’s the guy flying that plane. Everyone else is just along for the ride. Even Wade is having his career extended by LeBron’s greatness.

    18. Owen

      I guess I was convinced not to trade Amare, just because it wouldn’t help our cap space situation at all unless Melo was gone too, or Chandler. From what I can tell, the only real consequence of having him on the roster was a bigger salary tax hit for Dolan, which doesn’t bother me.

      If we could have traded him for Gortat we should have leapt at the opportunity though, or anything reasonably useful.

      But once the trade deadline passed, nothing to celebrate in his injury. So, yeah, my two cents. I do like Stat, I just hate his contract.

      Is that right all you capologists, the first graph?

    19. Owen

      i think Wade’s demise has been farcically exaggerated. Dude can still ball. Just a huge injury risk. He had a slow start but has come on like gangbusters. Not vintage Wade but close.

      Dwyane Wade basically carried a team to an NBA championship all by himself. Shaq was a shadow of his former self and the next best player on that team was Udonis Haslem. Not sure he gets anywhere near the credit he deserves for that title….

      And that said, I don’t think I could put the Heat any lower than the Thunder or Spurs right now….

      massive:
      The Heat, as a team, aren’t very amazing. The Spurs and OKC are amazing teams to me because they have balance and the top players are equal in importance. The Knicks were an amazing team to start the year (and would still be if they had health). Miami just seems like a team driven by LeBron’s excellence as no player comes close to matching his importance in Miami, and there isn’t much balance outside of the interchangeable parts known as “perimeter shooters.” I can’t call them an amazing team because it takes away from how great LeBron is. He’s the engine that powers Miami and he’s the guy flying that plane. Everyone else is just along for the ride. Even Wade is having his career extended by LeBron’s greatness.

    20. Douglas

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      You know what I hate the most about the Amar’e injury?

      0.0% chance of him being traded, down from 0.3% when he was shooting 65% TS.

      Surprise!

      P.S. He’s got a max contract.

      ugh you are the worst

    21. Tony Pena

      rohank: How come you only surface when bad stuff is happening to our team. I’d like to see the stats on that one.

      Nope, THCJ couldn’t help but post during the 18-5 start too. Hey, this season I’ve always been cautiously optimistic because I saw the ceiling for the Knicks, no team goes from 7 seed to nba finalists in one season.

    22. flossy

      Z-man:
      Also, the Amare injury might be a blessing in disguise. First, it eliminates the “Should Amare start? and “Can Amare play with Melo and/or Chandler?” talk. Second, it offers an opportunity to define several roles more clearly, e.g. Martin, JR, Copeland, Shump. Third, it brings Camby back into the rotation, who I think is an essential element to playoff success unless Sheed heals quickly.

      In a nutshell, it helps define us, which we need to do quickly as the playoff picture unfolds.

      Melo, on the other hand, needs to come back healthy, and fast!

      Are you seriously saying it’s “a blessing in disguise” that a max player with a TS% of .650 sustained a season-ending injury because it will mean more a defined role for fucking Chris Copeland?! Get a grip!

    23. jon abbey

      it is at least worth mentioning that NY went 16-13 when Amar’e played, and are currently 22-9 without him.

    24. flossy

      jon abbey:
      it is at least worth mentioning that NY went 16-13 when Amar’e played, and are currently 22-9 without him.

      I don’t suppose that would have anything to do with the injury to Felton and the untimely demise of Jason Kidd? Or did Amar’e’s absence earlier in the season cause Ronnie Brewer to shoot .400 from 3 for a month?

      Honestly, I can’t fathom any knowledgable observer seriously believing this team is or will be better without a health, productive Amar’e.

    25. jon abbey

      I’m not saying I believe that, but I think one could definitely make a case for it if Martin and Camby manage to stay healthy the rest of the way. this goes back to my query above about how much an efficient bulk post scorer helps you in today’s NBA, my guess there is less than people would think, depending of course in part on what else they contribute.

      FWIW, 5-5 with Amar’e without Felton, so 11-8 with both of them. it’s also worth noting that there were no impressive wins (in terms of opponent) among those 11, the most impressive were home wins against ATL/MIL/GS.

    26. jon abbey

      the three top teams we played with both Amar’e and Felton were IND/LAC/MIA, the first two beat us by a combined 48 and the Heat beat us by 20 in the second half (and 6 overall).

      again, my thesis isn’t that NY is a better team without Amar’e, but I am raising the possibility at least.

    27. jon abbey

      sorry, “the three top teams we played with both Amar’e and Felton OUT”, it’s early.

    28. jon abbey

      ugh, and I was right the first time, I hope someone can delete these last two posts (this one and the one starting with ‘sorry’). sorry…

    29. flossy

      I think it’s crazy to point to the team’s W-L record as evidence that Amar’e is not a major loss (or that his injury is a “blessing in disguise”).

      We went from having one of the top performing backcourts the league for the first 8 weeks of the season while Amar’e was out (Felton playing well, Jason Kidd playing out of his mind, JR scoring efficiently, Ronnie Brewer hitting open jump shots) to having one of the worst during his return (Felton playing meh, Jason Kidd and Iman Shumpert combining to form one of the worst backcourt duos in the league, JR Smith delivering mixed results as a 40mpg pillar).

      That has far more to do with our W-L record since his return than the idea that his contributions will basically not be missed. People can say “oh but we were so good without him to start the year” ’til they’re blue in the face, but unless his absence causes our guards to resume shooting a collective .400+ from 3 on a league-leading volume of attempts, I assure you we won’t see the same results now.

    30. jon abbey

      well, there’s no question our defense is better without him in there, right? that’s half the game right there.

    31. Z-man

      flossy: Are you seriously saying it’s “a blessing in disguise” that a max player with a TS% of .650 sustained a season-ending injury because it will mean more a defined role for fucking Chris Copeland?! Get a grip!

      Easy, flossy. Amare has been a time bomb this year and probably will be for the rest of his career. Just pointing out that if we came to depend on Amare and suddenly (more like predictably) something happened to him on the eve or during the playoffs, it would serve us right for depending on him. Until I see him with no minutes restrictions and healthy knees for a sustained period of time, I’d rather not “depend” on him in any capacity, i.e. anything we get from him is a pleasant surprise.

    32. Z-man

      Also, Copeland has a .59 TS%, not exactly chopped liver, and he’s an inside-outside threat. Not Amare by any stretch, but I think he can be effective in the right lineup.

    33. Frank

      I hate to say this, but I’ve had a minor internal conflict over the last 3 games since Melo’s been out. I know it’s a very small sample (which happens to coincide with the reappearance of good JR) but I heard something interesting on the radio the other day — some professional gambler spoke at SSAC and apparently said that anytime Melo sits out, he bets on the Knicks to beat the spread– with the rationale being that his impact is far overstated. And so far, apparently the Knicks are 9-0 against the spread with Melo out this year. Not that gambling and beating the spread are what I think about, but it definitely makes you think that there is something about Melo being out that doesn’t fit the usual thinking.

      Now don’t get me wrong – I don’t think the Knicks are better off without Melo or without Amare or both. But I do think it’s very possible (and likely) that the defense is far superior without Melo and Amare when the guys taking their minutes are Kenyon Martin, Camby, or even if it’s more minutes for Shump. And you have to at least wonder whether the offense might not be that much worse without them. I don’t think it’s that the offense is better, necessarily – it’s that there really does seem to be less ball-watching even when JR is going into iso mode. We had more of Shump attacking the basket, lots of K-Mart cutting and dunking, etc.

      Don’t know – again it’s a small sample, and it’s hard to know whether this kind of offense would work in the playoffs without the defense-breaking capability of Melo, but wow – am I impressed with how we’ve played since the second quarter of the Detroit game.

      Re: Amare – it’s really too bad – I thought he played his best defensive game in a long time against OKC. Ibaka gave him a lot of trouble, but that’s only to be expected.

    34. jon abbey

      “I know it’s a very small sample (which happens to coincide with the reappearance of good JR) ”

      I don’t think this is a total coincidence, JR is in a more comfortable role for him without Melo, the main guy all the time.

    35. Frank

      Meanwhile, amid all the reports that Brian Cashman wants Chipper Jones (and has signed Kuroda, Rivera, Jeter, Ichiro, Youkilis, etc.) – I’d like to wonder out loud whether anyone has ever seen Cashman AND Grunwald at the same time? Could one man be running both franchises?!?!?

    36. lavor postell

      I don’t see the Knicks pushing for a championship this season with all the injuries and problems we’ve had to deal with. That being said I dont view what we did in the offseason as a failure by any stretch of imagination.

      First off Sheed isn’t under contract past this season. Camby is virtually an expiring contract next season since his 3rd year is not guaranteed. At 4.38 million that can be a nice piece for us to dangle along with say Shumpert either before the draft this year where I’d love for us to try and move up and take a guy like Trey Burke. We can also just hold on to Camby and try to move him during the season or if he hasn’t been able to contribute we can buy out the last year of his contract.

      We’ll also have our mini-MLE this year which I think we can agree can actually deliver a player of some real value to the team. OJ Mayo pretty much agreed to a mini MLE deal for 2 year, 6 mill with 2nd year being a player option to sign in Dallas. Not saying we’re going to get Mayo, but simply there is more value in the mini MLE than I think is being given.

    37. Nick C.

      @37 Frank I think is the same guy/story that was from Sports Illustrated a month or two ago.

    38. flossy

      Z-man: Easy, flossy. Amare has been a time bomb this year and probably will be for the rest of his career. Just pointing out that if we came to depend on Amare and suddenly (more like predictably) something happened to him on the eve or during the playoffs, it would serve us right for depending on him. Until I see him with no minutes restrictions and healthy knees for a sustained period of time, I’d rather not “depend” on him in any capacity, i.e. anything we get from him is a pleasant surprise.

      Z-man:
      Also, Copeland has a .59 TS%, not exactly chopped liver, and he’s an inside-outside threat. Not Amare by any stretch, but I think he can be effective in the right lineup.

      Come on, man. Like it or not, there is no question that we do (or did?) depend on Amar’e being a contributor to have any shot–even a punchers chance–at getting out of the East, short of 4-5 Knicks shooting over .400 from 3 for three straight 7 game series, which will not happen ever. I don’t think his injury is a blessing in disguise, it just fucking sucks. Amar’e has been having a beastly scoring year and was just hitting his stride. This is a guy who has been the main scorer on teams that have gone deep, deep into the playoffs. The fact that Copeland is “not Amar’e by any stretch” is both a massive understatement and all that really needs to be said about the matter.

    39. jon abbey

      Copeland shouldn’t be playing either way, a playoff rotation if everyone currently healthy is healthy then:

      Chandler (36), Camby (12)
      Melo (28), Martin (12), Camby (8)
      Martin (12), Melo (10), Novak (12), Smith (14)
      Shumpert (26), Smith (22)
      Felton (26), Kidd (20)

      that’s a nine man rotation, no Copeland or White or Thomas necessary.

    40. jon abbey

      flossy:
      Come on, man.Like it or not, there is no question that we do (or did?) depend on Amar’e being a contributor to have any shot–even a punchers chance–at getting out of the East, short of 4-5 Knicks shooting over .400 from 3 for three straight 7 game series, which will not happen ever.I don’t think his injury is a blessing in disguise, it just fucking sucks.Amar’e has been having a beastly scoring year and was just hitting his stride.This is a guy who has been the main scorer on teams that have gone deep, deep into the playoffs.

      dude, I like Amar’e, but honestly this is just flat out wrong. there’s a good argument that this team is potentially just as tough if not tougher without him. yes, he brings post scoring, but he also can’t really play defensive center and he gets in the way of Melo at PF. a strong argument can be made (and your intransigence on this is pushing me into a devil’s advocate position) that the rotation I listed above is stronger than a rotation with him, overall.

      and we weren’t getting out of the East with or without him, I still will be pleasantly surprised if we make it out of the first round.

    41. Z-man

      Amare is just not physically who he was, and that is true since game 2 of the Celltic series. We will probably never see that Amare again, certainly not for a long while. That’s the part that sucks. Maybe he has an Antonio McDyess-like reincarnation in a year or two, but his knees are seriously compromised right now.

      You seem to think that the Amare we have been seeing lately is anywhere close to what he has been. Give me a break. TS% isn’t the end-all, and he has been poor at almost every other facet of the PF-C game.

      That’s the tragedy…that the Amare we saw recently is just an illusion. He didn’t land awkwardly and twist his knee, or have someone fall on it while it was planted. It simply gave out, just like the left one did in preseason. In retrospect, it was a certainty that this would happen, and everything we have seen was just a tease.

      The silver lining is that the illusion has been confirmed for what it really is. As much as that sucks, it is best that it happened now while we can adjust to life without him before the playoffs start, rather than in mid-late April. I feel for Amare, but am glad that any thoughts of depending on him are now out of the way.

    42. d-mar

      Have to take Flossy’s side here, just who are we going to for offense other than Melo when we play strong defensive teams (ie playoff teams) JR? If you’re counting on JR for consistent scoring you’re delusional. And Amare’s defense of late was actually pretty decent, so this idea that playing Martin and Camby significant minutes is going to suddenly turn us defensively into the Bulls is misguided as well.

      It’s a major loss if he doesn’t return for the playoffs, we have zero low post scoring without him.

    43. d-mar

      And BTW, just heard on ESPN that this knee debridement is way less complicated than the last, so his career is not over.

    44. flossy

      Please, Amar’e defense in the past few weeks was as good as it’s ever been, not elite but certainly not dramatically sub-standard for a PF. His return to the line-up coincided with the team shooting up the rebounding percentage rankings, and he and Kevin Durant are (/were) the only two players with a usage above 25 and a TS% above .640 this season. His production was not an illusion–he has frequently led the NBA in points scored in the paint and in fact has pulled the above-cited TS%/usage combination for a full season twice before in his career, a feat accomplished only by Adrian Dantley (once), Barkley (once) and Durant (this season).

      His *health* may have been an illusion, but the production was vintage Amar’e and it’s what we needed to compete with any of the other elite teams in the league. We’re going to get smoked in the playoffs if we’re really going in there with an undersized scoring PF, a bunch of defensive role players in the frontcourt, and a bunch of low-efficiency shooters in the backcourt, all of whom need to be absolutely on fire from downtown for the whole thing to work.

      K-Mart will be a godsend, and he’ll stop the bleeding a bit, but let’s not kid ourselves–if Ray Felton and JR Smith are competing to be your 2nd option on offense, your team has serious issues. Amar’e was supposed to be a major piece of the puzzle and his injury is not good news in any way, shape or form, period.

    45. Z-man

      d-mar: And Amare’s defense of late was actually pretty decent, so this idea that playing Martin and Camby significant minutes is going to suddenly turn us defensively into the Bulls is misguided as well.

      flossy: Amar’e defense in the past few weeks was as good as it’s ever been, not elite but certainly not dramatically sub-standard for a PF.

      Disagree, he’s been the same old lousy defender he’s always been, just not exposed as much against other team’s second units.

      flossy: he and Kevin Durant are (/were) the only two players with a usage above 25 and a TS% above .640 this season.

      I don’t think the way Amare was scoring would work against the better defensive teams like Indiana and Chicago. The fact that Amare could pile up points vs the second units of lousy teams doesn’t impress me, and apparently doesn’t impress Woodson either, as the benching vs. Miami would indicate.

      Seriously, which win vs. a quality opponent since Amare’s return would we have lost without him? Maybe the Celts?

      flossy: his injury is not good news in any way, shape or form, period.

      No it is not, we agree on that. We’re stuck with a $20 mill contract for another 3 years worth of playoffs, just like we were stuck with H2O. If you want to believe that Amare was on his way to regaining the greatness he showed in his first 50 games as a Knick and was derailed by a freak, unpredictable injury, go right on ahead. To me, this was totally predictable, and I’m relieved to be past hoping for his knees to magically heal. He has Allan Houston written all over him.

    46. Z-man

      flossy: K-Mart will be a godsend, and he’ll stop the bleeding a bit, but let’s not kid ourselves–if Ray Felton and JR Smith are competing to be your 2nd option on offense, your team has serious issues.

      d-mar: just who are we going to for offense other than Melo when we play strong defensive teams (ie playoff teams) JR? If you’re counting on JR for consistent scoring you’re delusional.

      My point exactly, this team has serious problems, and had them with or without this version of Amare. A bigger, but even more predictable, loss for the team was Rasheed.

      d-mar: It’s a major loss if he doesn’t return for the playoffs, we have zero low post scoring without him.

      And who is Miami’s big low-post scoring threat?

      This team, with or without STAT was not going to beat the better teams in the East with low post scoring. If we can’t hit 3’s we are going to make a quick playoff exit, no matter what happens down in the post. Amare is also a terrible passer out of double teams, so good defensive teams will just funnel him and run help defenders at him.

      And our standards have gotten pretty low for defense if we think Amare has improved much on that end. Look at how K-Mart defends after only 3 games back since not playing or practicing for a year, or how Sheed looked on defense after 2 years away from the game.

    47. d-mar

      Z-man:
      My point exactly, this team has serious problems, and had them with or without this version of Amare. A bigger, but even more predictable, loss for the team was Rasheed.

      And who is Miami’s big low-post scoring threat?

      This team, with or without STAT was not going to beat the better teams in the East with low post scoring. If we can’t hit 3?s we are going to make a quick playoff exit, no matter what happens down in the post. Amare is also a terrible passer out of double teams, so good defensive teams will just funnel him and run help defenders at him.

      And our standards have gotten pretty low for defense if we think Amare has improved much on that end. Look at how K-Mart defends after only 3 games back since not playing or practicing for a year, or how Sheed looked on defense after 2 years away from the game.

      Our standards have gotten pretty low for defense if we think committing 6 fouls in 17 minutes is somehow stellar.

    48. flossy

      Z-man: And our standards have gotten pretty low for defense if we think Amare has improved much on that end. Look at how K-Mart defends after only 3 games back since not playing or practicing for a year, or how Sheed looked on defense after 2 years away from the game.

      You mean he didn’t magically become as good as two of the best defending big men of the past generation? Gee, you don’t say!

    49. Z-man

      flossy: You mean he didn’t magically become as good as two of the best defending big men of the past generation? Gee, you don’t say!

      And these guys are in their supposed 30 yo primes like Amare and in mid-season form, right? Or is one an out-of-shape relic out of mothballs and the other a guy so great on D that nobody would sign him even for peanuts?

    50. flossy

      Z-man: And these guys are in their supposed 30 yo primes like Amare and in mid-season form, right? Or is one an out-of-shape relic out of mothballs and the other a guy so great on D that nobody would sign him even for peanuts?

      Let’s see those two play more than 300 minutes or actually shoulder any significant burden on offense before we fault Amar’e for not playing defense like them. He didn’t play defense like Jared Jeffries, either.

    Comments are closed.