Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, September 18, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jun 30 2013)

  • [New York Post] Knicks aim to re-ink J.R., stay on point (Sun, 30 Jun 2013 02:31:55 -0500)
    Let the J.R. Smith Sweepstakes begin!
    As NBA free agency begins Sunday night at midnight, the success of the Knicks’ July will hinge on whether they keep their own free agents as much as bringing in new blood, as Smith, point guard Pablo Prigioni and forward Chris Copeland all…

  • [New York Post] Serby’s Sunday Q&A with… Tim Hardaway Jr. (Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:22:30 -0500)
    The newest New York Knick, first-round draft pick Tim Hardaway Jr. — whose father starred with the Warriors and Heat, among others — took a shot at some Q&A with Post columnist Steve Serby.

    Q: How did your dad’s criticism of you growing up affect the family?

    A: He’ll…

  • [New York Times] Best Brother Was Saved for Last, Bobcats Think (Sun, 30 Jun 2013 01:51:33 GMT)
    The Charlotte Bobcats, who selected Cody, the youngest of the three Zellers, with the No. 4 pick in Thursday’s draft, will be hoping they have the right brother.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Basketball: Timberwolves’ Kirilenko Opts Out of Contract (Sun, 30 Jun 2013 01:43:58 GMT)
    Andrei Kirilenko has opted out of the final year of his contract with the Minnesota Timberwolves and will become a free agent.    

  • [New York Times] Eyes on Howard When NBA Free Agency Opens (Sun, 30 Jun 2013 00:34:28 GMT)
    Dwight Howard could leave, Chris Paul is expected to stay, and plenty more will happen beyond Los Angeles when the NBA’s free agency period opens.    

  • 170 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jun 30 2013)

    1. danvt

      It’s interesting how people are forgetting about Novak. 5th on the team in +/- with a 3.0 in twenty minutes a night. 42% from three. 6.6 ppg. He made a lot of space on the floor. Let’s not be so quick to write him off. I know he’s a particularly un-great one on one defender but NBA teams are designed to play defense as a team and lots of guys look bad when out on an island.

      Maybe Novak was the key to getting by IND. We were close despite losing the twenty minutes a game that Steve played. Amazing all the hate for Woodson on this board considering stuff like that.

    2. danvt

      The thing about Linsanity was that we did it without “talent”. Tyson didn’t shoot but got tons of dunks. Lin couldn’t really blow by anyone so he would take his time and use his size and his dribble. If they made space Novak was there to finish like Danny Freakin’ Green! Basketball is easy. Maybe the Knicks would be better without JR. Just keep it simple. Feed Melo. Tyson and Ray in the P&R. Let everyone else camp out. What more do you need? Great players must be double teamed. PG’s create, for others, or themselves. I’m tired of wing initiated one on one play.

      I’d prefer to think that JR continues to integrate. He actually could be what Massive was talking about with the ability Green didn’t show once MIA got up on him. Spot up, and if they recover, take a dribble and shoot from mid range. I’m just tired of the Jordan moves.

    3. EB

      danvt:
      It’s interesting how people are forgetting about Novak.5th on the team in +/- with a 3.0 in twenty minutes a night.42% from three.6.6 ppg.He made a lot of space on the floor.Let’s not be so quick to write him off.I know he’s a particularly un-great one on one defender but NBA teams are designed to play defense as a team and lots of guys look bad when out on an island.

      Maybe Novak was the key to getting by IND.We were close despite losing the twenty minutes a game that Steve played.Amazing all the hate for Woodson on this board considering stuff like that.

      I second this. We knew he was a three point specialist coming in and he still is. He had an “off” year shooting 42% from three. Maybe he got open less but nobody helps off him and so Melo has fewer doubles thrown his way then when Kidd or Prigs pass up wide open shots.

    4. EB

      Also, can someone clarify for me if we have CJ Leslie on a contract for the year or is it just for summer league?

    5. johnno

      Re: trading for Rondo (and including Felton and Shumpert in a deal) — why is everyone ignoring the fact that Rondo tore his ACL at the end of January, which means that he won’t be back to near full strength until February at the earliest (Shumpert) or maybe much later (Rose)? So, they would essentially be sacrificing the entire first half of the season (who’s going to play point, Toney Douglas?) in the hopes that he will come back at full strength and immediately fit right in with a bunch of players whom he’s never played with, take over as the leader of the team, and lead the Knicks on some amazing run to sneak into the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed. No thanks.
      I think that I am in the minority, but I think that the Knicks should focus piimarily on bringing back Prigioni, Copeland, JR and K-Mart. Continuity is extremely important (a HUGE reason why the Pacers have steadily improved for the last few years). They won 54 games last year and will have lost no one but Kidd, who was useless for large stretches of the season and entire postseason. If they are able to pick up a decent backup center and point guard at the vet minimum, they will be very good next year. If they sign their four FAs, they will have three roster spots to fill. See if Andre Blatche wants the vet minimum but, if not, I’d be fine with Jerome Jordan/Henry Sims, a veteran backup point and a high upside athletic prospect/project like CJ Leslie or Gani Lawal as the 15th man.

    6. DS

      FWIW, P&T called the Rondo rumor bogus… I saw another rumor that the Knicks are interested in Tony Allen.

    7. massive

      @2, that role for JR is essentially the role Ruru was talking about for him. JR is best as a spot up shooter who attacks the basket when defenses close too hard on him. The Knicks needed him to be a 2nd option this year, and that’s why we couldn’t see JR at his strength. I assume we planned for JR to be the 4th option behind Melo, Amar’e, and the Felton/Chandler P&R. It didn’t work out that way because of Amar’e’s injuries and the Felton thumb injury that put him out of commission for 5 or so weeks and then he couldn’t shoot straight for the rest of the season. By the end of the year, JR was our undoubted 2nd option and that hurt us in the playoffs. It’s well known that he can’t be relied upon in that role, but we were left no choice with an injured team.

    8. Juany8

      So this is unrelated to the Knicks, but does no one find it weird that there has been absolutely no mention of Andrew Bynum recently? He was the second best center in the NBA just a year ago, a team that snaps him up and gets a healthy season out of him could really change the landscape. Dallas especially should be looking hard at that option, they don’t have a lot of time left with Nowitski.

    9. Z-man

      On the last thread there was some stuff about Lin, and while I think his contract was outrageous and had no problem with not matching last year, I wouldn’t be opposed to bringing him back if Houston is looking to dump him, especially if we can rid ourselves of the Novak and Camby contracts. I doubt if Dolan and his ego would ever allow it, but Lin would probably be a good fit right now with Kidd gone and Pablo a question mark. Question: would he cost $5mill and $15 Mill, $8 and $8 or $10 and $10?

    10. Brian Cronin

      Also, can someone clarify for me if we have CJ Leslie on a contract for the year or is it just for summer league?

      It is a contract for the season, but odds are that it is an un-guaranteed contract, so they can cut him before the season begins and not have to pay him. Still, the fact that they signed him to a contract at all is a pretty good indication that they will keep him on the roster (they didn’t need to sign him to any contract – they could have just invited him to Summer League, but then another team could have tried to sign him).

    11. Brian Cronin

      So this is unrelated to the Knicks, but does no one find it weird that there has been absolutely no mention of Andrew Bynum recently? He was the second best center in the NBA just a year ago, a team that snaps him up and gets a healthy season out of him could really change the landscape. Dallas especially should be looking hard at that option, they don’t have a lot of time left with Nowitski.

      This is pretty standard fare for NBA free agents, I think, where the big names take up so much attention that guys like Bynum don’t even get talked about until the guy ahead of them signs. Howard is taking up everyone’s attention. Once he signs, then I imagine folks will turn to Bynum. I mean, the guy did just miss the entire season, ya know?

    12. Brian Cronin

      What do you folks think about Tony Allen for the mini-MLE? Or do you think that the Knicks need to use the mini-MLE on a point or a center?

      It irks me that the new NBA economy makes it so that a guy as good as Tony Allen is likely stuck with the mini-MLE.

    13. Brian Cronin

      Lamar Odom, by the way, is reportedly down to vet minimum money, which is fascinating, as it could open up the free agent market dramatically for him. Imagine Odom joining, say, I dunno, the Thunder on a vet minimum deal? Or, god forbid, the Heat? I don’t think he’d fit on the Knicks, but it’d be interesting, to say the least.

    14. Brian Cronin

      How awesome is it that Keith Bogans got signed to a $5 million contract as part of the Celtics/Nets trade? I love that. Bogans is a good guy, and if anyone is going to get a BS contract just to make the money work, I’m glad it was him.

      EDITED TO ADD: Sorry for all the posts in a row – there’s just so much going on today that I keep seeing an interesting story that I want to write about!

    15. massive

      A lot of good players aren’t being talked about this off-season. I’ve heard almost nothing about all of Jose Calderon, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bynum, Andrei Kirilenko, Josh Smith, and Nikola Pekovic.

      What do you guys think Jose Calderon will command on the open market? He’s still one of the best point guards in the NBA, but I’m not sure the NBA knows that. He could very easily sign a 3 year, $12 million contract when he’s easily worth double the money over the same contract length. I don’t know why we didn’t jump at the opportunity to get him last season when Toronto was interested in Lin. I would have flipped Lin for Calderon instead of going after Felton (and losing Kostas Papanikolaou in the process).

    16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      If Millsap makes his way to the Rockets, you could see a new team atop the Western Conference.

      Is it possible for the Rockets to get both Millsap and Howard?

    17. Brian Cronin

      If Millsap makes his way to the Rockets, you could see a new team atop the Western Conference.

      Is it possible for the Rockets to get both Millsap and Howard?

      If the cap is $60 million, then maybe, if Millsap would take just the MLE. I would imagine that that is why they’re trying to trade Lin, to clear up more cap room to be able to sign a second impact free agent. What’s most curious to me is what they’ll do if they do get Howard. Do they deal Asik or try to play the two together?

    18. Brian Cronin

      A lot of good players aren’t being talked about this off-season. I’ve heard almost nothing about all of Jose Calderon, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bynum, Andrei Kirilenko, Josh Smith, and Nikola Pekovic.

      Most of those I agree, but Iggy has been in the news a lot. Just today there was a report that the Pelicans were going to go after him big time.

      What do you guys think Jose Calderon will command on the open market? He’s still one of the best point guards in the NBA, but I’m not sure the NBA knows that. He could very easily sign a 3 year, $12 million contract when he’s easily worth double the money over the same contract length. I don’t know why we didn’t jump at the opportunity to get him last season when Toronto was interested in Lin. I would have flipped Lin for Calderon instead of going after Felton (and losing Kostas Papanikolaou in the process).

      Yeah, I think Calderon’s market is the mini-MLE now. So yep, he’s definitely someone the Knicks could be interested in.

    19. alsep73

      https://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/statuses/351414820450480128

      Isola says interest between Knicks and Aaron Brooks is mutual. I assume he’d take up some or all of the mini-midlevel. Is getting him worth losing out on Prigs and/or Copeland?

      Also, Berman’s article this morning claimed the Knicks would somehow be able to trade Cope to another team for a trade exception. Not sure how/if that works, given that everyone has said we can’t resign him for one penny above the mid-MLE.

    20. Brian Cronin

      Isola says interest between Knicks and Aaron Brooks is mutual. I assume he’d take up some or all of the mini-midlevel. Is getting him worth losing out on Prigs and/or Copeland?

      My guess is that Brooks is at the vet minimum stage of his career at this point. So I don’t think getting him would preclude them from getting anyone else.

      Also, Berman’s article this morning claimed the Knicks would somehow be able to trade Cope to another team for a trade exception. Not sure how/if that works, given that everyone has said we can’t resign him for one penny above the mid-MLE.

      They definitely could, it just wouldn’t make sense because if they were going to sign him, why wouldn’t they just keep him? Especially since signing and then trading him would burn their mini-MLE. It really doesn’t work in practice, but yes, in theory they could sign him to the mini-MLE and then trade him for either a trade exception or another player.

    21. JK47

      In this market I would think Aaron Brooks would be more of a veterans minimum guy than a mini-MLE guy. On a veterans minimum contract I’d like the pickup because he can shoot the 3.

      Calderon, on the other hand, can REALLY shoot it, and would be an awesome fit here.

    22. Brian Cronin

      Calderon, on the other hand, can REALLY shoot it, and would be an awesome fit here.

      Totally. He’d be great. Although his defense is shaky at best, which could be a problem if Shump continues at the 3.

    23. JK47

      Brian Cronin: Totally. He’d be great. Although his defense is shaky at best, which could be a problem if Shump continues at the 3.

      Yeah, the only problem with Calderon is that Woody will be tempted to use him at SG, and he will get abused by opposing SGs. I’m skeptical about the long-term viability of the two-PG attack; I’d rather go with the more traditional lineup with Shump at the 2, Melo at SF, etc. The small-ball lineups are fun to watch on offense but painful to watch on defense.

    24. mr front row

      Im curious to the sentiment in the room on terrance williams. I see he was waived today by the celtics.Im not a fan of head cases , but woody has a history of reaching these types.

    25. Frank

      not sure how to feel about the interest in Tony Allen – while I think the idea of putting him and Shump in the same defensive backcourt would be terrorizing against other teams, having him and Tyson in the starting lineup would basically make it 3-on-5 if they stop the initial PNR action. And considering teams are generally more than happy to help off of Felton anyway, it’d be almost like 2-on-5 with Shump and Melo as the only offensive threats. But man would that be a good defensive lineup in crunch time with Shump, Allen, and Tyson (assuming return to form).

      I’m fine with the Aaron Brooks interest — presumably he’d just be a vet’s minimum guy, and as a backup PG we could do worse.

      Overall I’m pleasantly surprised with how much talent there is available on the market right now. I feel like there should be some good players that we can get with the mini-MLE. And as much as I love Copeland, I think we could probably get more of a 2-way player (at a position of greater need like guard or true big) or at least an equivalent guy (like Dunleavy, who has a similar game, more of a track record, but is older).

    26. massive

      Brian Cronin: Totally. He’d be great. Although his defense is shaky at best, which could be a problem if Shump continues at the 3.

      Felton isn’t a good defender, either. He repeatedly got lit up and went under screens all season. The only difference is that Calderon is an elite offensive player, and Raymond Felton is below average offensively. If we had a shot at Calderon at missed it, I would be miffed.

      It’s actually hilarious that Dallas is looking at Brandon freaking Jennings instead of Jose Calderon. He could fall right into our laps if he wants to play for a contender. Dallas isn’t interested from what I’m seeing, Houston probably doesn’t want the defensive nightmare that would be a Calderon/Harden backcourt, and all other teams don’t have a need for a starting PG. We could start him and Felton together like we did last year with Felton and Prigioni/Kidd.

    27. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, a Calderon/Felton backcourt would be brutal defensively.

      Now if one of them started along with Shump, then Shump could cover, but together, we’d just see another season of “Point Guard X going straight to the paint.”

    28. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Brian Cronin: What’s most curious to me is what they’ll do if they do get Howard. Do they deal Asik or try to play the two together?

      Given that Asik only plays 30 MPG (typical of centers, no?), I see no reason why they couldn’t do a two-center rotation for 12 MPG. I suspect that team would be among the best in league history against interior scoring.

      Howard would dominate most PF, even in the mid-range. That guy can really jump.

    29. Brian Cronin

      Agreed, Frank. I think Copeland is, in general, being a bit underrated here (not by you, of course), but there is so much strong talent out there that I think the Knicks probably shouldn’t even match if another team just signed Cope to the mini-MLE. I’m pleasantly surprised by how much strong talent there is out there that will likely be signing to just the mini-MLE. Guys like Tony Allen, Calderon and Dunleavy, to name three.

    30. Z-man

      I like Copeland, but if he’s going to get paid somewhere else, no problem seeing him go. Not a big Calderon fan, but on the cheap I guess he would be okay. I like Tony Allen a lot, but in today’s NBA, guards/swing men who can’t shoot the 3 are liabilities, no matter how good they are on D. Take Battier, as soon as he went cold from 3 he was benched in favor of Miller and had to shoot his way back into the rotation.

    31. flossy

      ruruland:
      Bargnani guys, Bargnani

      I suppose giving up Camby and Novak makes sense . He’s better than Steve fucking Novak. The picks hurt, naturally. Maybe they spare the first rounder somehow.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/sports/basketball/knicks-are-said-to-be-favorites-to-acquire-raptors-bargnani.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

      ruruland:
      Bargnani guys, Bargnani

      I suppose giving up Camby and Novak makes sense . He’s better than Steve fucking Novak. The picks hurt, naturally. Maybe they spare the first rounder somehow.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/sports/basketball/knicks-are-said-to-be-favorites-to-acquire-raptors-bargnani.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

      NOOOOO! NO NO NO NO

      Andrea Bargnani is human garbage! He is negative good at basketball! WTF?!

    32. JK47

      Why in the name of holy living crap would anybody want Andrea Bargnani on their basketball team? Ruru, you’re trolling us.

      Is it his horrendous defense that you like? His .309 and .296 shooting from three over the last two years? His injury prone-ness? The fact that he’s seven feet tall but rebounds like a guard?

      He’s honestly just about one of the worst players I can think of. He’s horrible at everything.

    33. JK47

      We also have to give up a draft pick for this clown?

      WHY DO I ROOT FOR THIS STUPID ASS BASKETBALL TEAM. KILL ME PLEASE.

    34. ess-dog

      Wow… unexpected. That’s rough giving up a 1st. When do we next have a 1st?

      Theoretically, he’s just what the dr. (or someone in an earlier thread) ordered: a center that can step out and shoot the three.

      But in real life he’s pretty damn bad. He seems to be better as a center, so if he moves to back up center and gets less minutes, maybe he’ll be ok?

      Just trying to stay positive.

      Although, he did light up the knicks a few years ago and early last year I believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDmSH-APEEA

    35. JK47

      Yeah, theoretically Eddy Curry is awesome too. Theoretically Austin Rivers is a GREAT player.

      Seriously, you’ve got to be kidding me with this shit.

    36. flossy

      JK47:
      We also have to give up a draft pick for this clown?

      WHY DO I ROOT FOR THIS STUPID ASS BASKETBALL TEAM.KILL ME PLEASE.

      TWO DRAFT PICKS HA HA HA [gunshots]

    37. DRed

      ruruland:
      Bargnani guys, Bargnani

      I suppose giving up Camby and Novak makes sense . He’s better than Steve fucking Novak. The picks hurt, naturally. Maybe they spare the first rounder somehow.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/sports/basketball/knicks-are-said-to-be-favorites-to-acquire-raptors-bargnani.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

      Better at what? Bargnani fucking sucks. That would be one of the worst trades in Knicks history. I wouldn’t trade Novak straight up for Bargnani.

    38. massive

      Andrea Bargnani? That’s the best we can do? Really? I hate having to talk myself into moves like this one. Maybe he won’t be so pitiful playing between Melo and Chandler as a 2b option?

      And then you look at his rebounding and see that averages under 5 a game for his career. That’s disgraceful. Maybe he can talk Calderon into coming to the Knicks? Only silver lining I can think of.

    39. JK47

      Don’t forget that in addition to his shitty efficiency, shitty rebounding, utter lack of passing ability and brittleness, Bargnani plays defense like a total fucking vagina.

      Actually, you know what? He’ll fit right in here. I hope everybody enjoyed that series win over the Celtics, because it’s gonna be a long, long fucking time until we enjoy such lofty heights again. Idiots run this team. IDIOTS.

    40. ruruland

      Well, his shooting woes are definitely a red flag. But this is going to be another fascinating test case in how a role and shot distribution changes his numbers. Also, was not being able to live up to expectations in Toronto a burden too great for him to deal with mentally?

      He was truly awful as a feature player in Toronto, and his shooting numbers are bad the last two years.

      But we can look at our own roster to see guys who blossomed/developed once they left the team that drafted them.

      Bargnani has a soft shooting touch and the ability to break his man down off the dribble. He is very talented.

      You’re not the first pick in the draft w/out being really talented.

    41. Hubert

      We pay a tax in all trades right now. I have to believe Toronto would be thrilled doing this deal without a first, but everyone knows we give em away like hotcakes.

      What pick can it be tho?

      Denver has our 2014. Our 2015 is ours and we can’t trade it unless we offer them to swap (IMO, We NEED to keep our 2015 because things could go really bad in the last year of Amare and Tyson’s deals if they don’t age well). I think Denver has our 2016, no?

      Hopefully it’s Hardaway Jr.

      I’m just so sick of giving up draft picks.

      Serious question: is Bargnani better than Copeland? I don’t have access to stats right now. Just going on feel. I think I’d rather have Cope.

    42. Kikuchiyo

      On the plus side, Bargnani seemed spooked by all the pressure in Toronto. The fans turned on him, and his game shrank. Should be fantastic in a smaller market…like NEW YORK.

    43. JK47

      You’re not the first pick in the draft w/out being really talented.

      Hey, maybe we can get Kwame Brown here too. Then we’ll have one of the most talented teams in the NBA. Maybe we can talk Michael Olowokandi out of retirement too, that guy is oozing with talent.

    44. ruruland

      Hubert:
      We pay a tax in all trades right now.I have to believe Toronto would be thrilled doing this deal without a first, but everyone knows we give em away like hotcakes.

      What pick can it be tho?

      Denver has our 2014. Our 2015 is ours and we can’t trade it unless we offer them to swap (IMO, We NEED to keep our 2015 because things could go really bad in the last year of Amare and Tyson’s deals if they don’t age well).I think Denver has our 2016, no?

      Hopefully it’s Hardaway Jr.

      I’m just so sick of giving up draft picks.

      Serious question: is Bargnani better than Copeland?I don’t have access to stats right now. Just going on feel. I think I’d rather have Cope.

      Statistically Copeland was better last year, without question.

    45. DRed

      ruruland:
      Well, his shooting woes are definitely a red flag. But this is going to be another fascinating test case in how a role and shot distribution changes his numbers. Also, was not being able to live up to expectations in Toronto a burden too great for him to deal with mentally?

      He was truly awful as a feature player in Toronto, and his shooting numbers are bad the last two years.

      But we can look at our own roster to see guys who blossomed/developed once they left the team that drafted them.

      Bargnani has a soft shooting touch and the ability to break his man down off the dribble. He is very talented.

      You’re not the first pick in the draft w/out being really talented.

      There’s going to be nothing fascinating about watching this chump play basketball in a Knicks jersey.

    46. EB

      Brian Cronin: It is a contract for the season, but odds are that it is an un-guaranteed contract, so they can cut him before the season begins and not have to pay him. Still, the fact that they signed him to a contract at all is a pretty good indication that they will keep him on the roster (they didn’t need to sign him to any contract – they could have just invited him to Summer League, but then another team could have tried to sign him).

      Thank you!

    47. JK47

      The ONLY good thing about Bargnani is that he’s always injured, so at least we won’t have to watch him suck all that much.

    48. ess-dog

      I like your positivity, ruru.
      I’m trying to think what what a team SHOULD get for Novak and Camby – both overpaid – and two not very high draft picks.
      Maybe Turkoglu or Tyrus Thomas?
      Not sure if that’s better though.

    49. ephus

      The pick would be in 2018, at the earliest. I think this would work out extremely well. Bargnani would be the player that ‘Sheed appeared to be at the start of last season. 7 foot center who can play post defense and stretch the floor. I think that he and Stat would actually work well together on the second unit. Bargnani does not want to be in the paint, but he will draw the center out of the paint for STAT to drive to the hole.

    50. KnickfaninNJ

      I don’t know why everyone’s so upset about Camby and Novak for Bargnani. It’s true that Bargnani has been a big disappointment after being drafted high, and his advanced stats for last season are bad, but most people on this board seem to be looking for ways to get rid of Camby and I can’t say he’s worse than Novak. He’s actually younger, and if he plays Novak’s Knicks role instead of 30 minutes a game as a starter, his stats would probably be better.

      By the way, it seems that this might be the second time Ujiri will trade a name guy to the Knicks for lesser pieces.

    51. EB

      JK47:
      You’re not the first pick in the draft w/out being really talented.

      Hey, maybe we can get Kwame Brown here too.Then we’ll have one of the most talented teams in the NBA.Maybe we can talk Michael Olowokandi out of retirement too, that guy is oozing with talent.

      Hey I bet we could steal Darko from someone for only 2 draft picks!!! He must be better than Melo since he was drafted ahead of him!!!

    52. massive

      Honestly, that’s a really good point. Andrea Bargnani is a worse and more expensive version of Chris Copeland. I’m really not okay with this. Bargnani is probably the worst player in the NBA to average as many minutes a game as he did over his career.

      He had a WS/48 of .007 last season lmao. Why is this so funny to me? We’re about to make a 54 win team 5 losses worse by giving this guy minutes.

    53. MJG1789

      Post defense? I’m as optimistic as they come – I even have hopes for the Hardaway pick and I like bringing in Leslie – but Bargnani? I see nothing but suck in his future. Hope I’m wrong, but it would be even better is if this rumor is wrong.

    54. DRed

      You can’t say he’s worse than Novak? His TS% last season was twelve points worse than Steve’s. Bargnani was probably the worst starter in the NBA last season.

    55. JK47

      ephus:
      The pick would be in 2018, at the earliest.I think this would work out extremely well.Bargnani would be the player that ‘Sheed appeared to be at the start of last season.7 foot center who can play post defense and stretch the floor.I think that he and Stat would actually work well together on the second unit.Bargnani does not want to be in the paint, but he will draw the center out of the paint for STAT to drive to the hole.

      OH MY GOD ARE YOU JOKING.

      First of all, Bargnani’s defense is execrable. He is hands down on of the softest players in the league, if not THE softest. His defense is unbelievably bad, particularly his help defense, which is nonexistent. You’re more likely to see a unicorn waltz across the floor at MSG than you are to see Andrea Bargnani play competent help defense. A Bargnani-Stoudemire frontcourt would be awesome to watch, only for the sheer comedy of it. It would test the theoretical limits of shitty frontcourt defense.

      There have been in NBA history 131 seven-footers who played over 1,000 minutes. Bargnani ranks 129th among this group in TRB%, outpacing only Brad Sellers and Nikolas Tshkiskvsili-whatever. And as far as stretching the floor, I will remind you that Bargnani shot a mighty .309 from three last year, following up his stellar .296 the year before.

      And who could forget this amazing gem uttered by Bargnani after being confronted by a reporter about his defensive ineptitude: “I do things that are more complicated than rebounds and defense.”

      The guy is a giant sack of shit, completely unrootable, with no redeeming qualities.

    56. KnickfaninNJ

      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade. And comparisons to Darko and Kwame Brown aren’t really fair either. Those guys crashed as soon as they got into the league. But Toronto coaches have consistently given Bargnani starters minutes, so there’s more to him than a complete bust.

    57. MJG1789

      massive:
      He had a WS/48 of .007 last season lmao. Why is this so funny to me? We’re about to make a 54 win team 5 losses worse by giving this guy minutes.

      Maybe the Knicks PA can play the James Bond theme in his honor during introductions.

      Ok, I found a silver lining. If they do this, they must be moving Melo back to the 3, right?

    58. ruruland

      Kikuchiyo:
      On the plus side, Bargnani seemed spooked by all the pressure in Toronto. The fans turned on him, and his game shrank. Should be fantastic in a smaller market…like NEW YORK.

      Tyson Chandler was not a good basketball player most of his young career. Vince Carter was pretty bad his last three years in Toronto before getting re-energized in New Jersey.

      Chauncey Billups didn’t post a WS above .100 in his first five stops, same thing with teammate Matt Barnes.

      Barnagni has a higher career TS than Jamal Crawford and roughly the same as JR Smith, who had some incredibly efficient years when playing the right role.

      Mike Dunleavy, a cheap role player we and many NBA teams rightfully covet now, had a .520 TS his first five years in the league.

      The list of turnarounds is long.

      Bargnani is a reclamation project. He has two years left on his deal. Novak had 4.

      If the Knicks don’t have to give up that first, this could turn out, simply from a basketball perspective, a very good move.

      Sure, there’s a solid chance Bargnani doesn’t get any better, but there’s also the possibility that a new start, cleanse slate and more limited role cultivates his skills and talent.

      Look, he has shot the ball very well before, and is one of the most skilled 7-footers to ever be drafted.

    59. ess-dog

      Well, he only played 35 games last year. And he was approximately average the year before that (although he only played 31 games that year.)

      The brittleness is a serious concern, since we have so many brittle guys as it is.

      But ruru’s right – what he can do (shoot as a big and drive against bigs) does fit very nicely next to Melo and/or Amare.

    60. DRed

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade. And comparisons to Darko and Kwame Brown aren’t really fair either.Those guys crashed as soon as they got into the league.But Toronto coaches have consistently given Bargnani starters minutes, so there’s more to him than a complete bust.

      You can’t be serious with this. He’s been a massive bust. The fact that Toronto keeps playing him means nothing.

    61. EB

      Well offensively I guess he’d be interesting next to Melo. But, that’s just in a hypothetical universe where Andrea Bargnani is a good version of himself.

      I mean Josh Harrelson could do a better job for the minimum.

    62. ruruland

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade. And comparisons to Darko and Kwame Brown aren’t really fair either.Those guys crashed as soon as they got into the league.But Toronto coaches have consistently given Bargnani starters minutes, so there’s more to him than a complete bust.

      Right, the biggest difference is that while Bargnani doesn’t have quite the physical package those guys had, there is no doubt about his skills.

      He is super-skilled and damnd quick for a big. But he’s spent his career as a poor decison-maker and bad shot-taker, perhaps a byrpoduct of the expectation he develop into a franchise player.

      Take that burden off of him, give him a simpler, more straightforward role, guys can really take off in that situation.

    63. massive

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade.

      The point is that we’d be giving up two quality rotation players and a 1st round draft pick to give minutes to a worse version of a player we already have who doesn’t even get minutes. That’s unacceptable.

    64. JK47

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade. And comparisons to Darko and Kwame Brown aren’t really fair either.Those guys crashed as soon as they got into the league.But Toronto coaches have consistently given Bargnani starters minutes, so there’s more to him than a complete bust.

      Yeah, they played him a lot of minutes, and they fucking sucked. He was the “anchor” of the 30th ranked defense in the NBA two years in a row. When he started getting hurt all the time and saw his minutes cut in half, presto! The Raps’ defense immediately improved by leaps and bounds.

      If they trade for this stiff I hope the idea is to stash him at the end of the bench until his shitty contract expires. Because there are D-Leaguers you can get for free who play rings around this bum.

    65. massive

      Can somebody show me examples of players who sucked forever that changed roles and became useful basketball players? Andray Blatche and who else?

    66. flossy

      I literally cannot think of a more depressing trade than sending out multiple players (who are better than Bargs) AND multiple draft picks to pay a human black hole of basketball $23 million over the next 2 years. It actually makes me nauseated.

    67. ruruland

      MJG1789:
      Post defense? I’m as optimistic as they come – I even have hopes for the Hardaway pick and I like bringing in Leslie – but Bargnani? I see nothing but suck in his future. Hope I’m wrong, but it would be even better is if this rumor is wrong.

      It’s an upside deal.

      Novak could not play in the playoffs. Now maybe the same thing happens with Bargnani and he becomes unplayable, but the Knicks should have the depth to handle that.

      Camby, at this point, simply doesn’t fit Woodson’s defense and can’t be relied upon.

      Worst case — Bargnani is as bad as he was in Toronto, gets glued to the bench and vanishes from the NBA in two years.

      But there is a best case scenario here, and there’s a chance Bargnani finds a niche and turns into a very good, dangerous offensive player just good enough to get by on defense.

      His ability to attack the rotating defense consistently means he can contribute in the playoffs while, at the worst, giving roughly the same Novak gave rebounding on defense.

      But the Knicks will not be bound to Bargnani for those two extra years as they were with Novak.

    68. BigBlueAL

      Bargnani’s contract expires summer of 2015. Same as Chandler and Amar’e. Knicks actually gain some future cap space getting rid of Novak.

      Considering all the bridge jumpers on this site last July after letting Lin go cant wait to read this site in the next couple of weeks!! lol

    69. massive

      Toronto is finalizing agreement to send Andrea Bargnani to Knicks for Marcus Camby, Steve Novak and 2016 first-round pick, sources tell Y!

      — Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) June 30, 2013

      Amazing. This is really happening. Like really. This isn’t a cruel joke.

    70. ruruland

      massive: The point is that we’d be giving up two quality rotation players and a 1st round draft pick to give minutes to a worse version of a player we already have who doesn’t even get minutes. That’s unacceptable.

      Why is anyone under the impression that Bargnani is entitled minutes?

      Come on folks, there is no reason to think that? You think Woody really wants to play soft guys?

      Bargnani will earn his minutes if he gets them. The Knicks will have other options if he doesn’t.

      This trade changes nothing from the perspective of signings.

    71. BigBlueAL

      The 1st round pick they are sending is the 2016 one which Denver can swap with. Some consolation??

    72. massive

      Howard Beck ?@HowardBeckNYT 59s
      UPDATE: Knicks and Raptors have agreed to deal to send Bargnani to New York. Awaiting league approval.

      FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

    73. BigBlueAL

      Amar’e must be pissed, probably not looking forward to covering Bargs in practice considering how much he lit him in during the 2010-11 season lol.

    74. EB

      So what do we do with Amare now?? Or do we plan on having Bargs split time between the 3 and 4?

      Maybe we made this trade only to put Bargs in at the five against Hibbert?

      Maybe we thought we needed more offense?? Oh wait we were good on offense, it was our defense that sucked.

    75. DRed

      So the spin is that Novak can’t play against good teams, so we’re going to trade him, Camby and a pick for a guy who can’t play against good or bad teams. Brilliant.

    76. BigBlueAL

      DRed:
      So the spin is that Novak can’t play against good teams, so we’re going to trade him, Camby and a pick for a guy who can’t play against good or bad teams.Brilliant.

      More cap space in summer of 2015!! Honestly that to me is the best part of this trade.

    77. ess-dog

      Yeah, this was about trading a 1st to lop off those 2 extra Novak years. If anything, it gives us an extra roster spot to fool around with and hopefully find the next Lin.

    78. JK47

      The fact that there is yet ANOTHER first round fucking draft pick going out the door… This franchise is a goddamned joke. I mean, really, what am I doing with my life? Surely there must be better ways to spend my time than watching this bunch of losers. Seriously. Andrea Bargnani. What have I done to deserve this?

      Well, we’ll always have that first-round win over a washed-up Boston team. I’ll tell my kids about that someday.

    79. JK47

      I’m gonna personally Gilloolly this motherfucker myself so I don’t have to watch him play.

    80. ruruland

      DRed:
      So the spin is that Novak can’t play against good teams, so we’re going to trade him, Camby and a pick for a guy who can’t play against good or bad teams.Brilliant.

      Look, it’s not fair of anyone to dismiss the upside in Bargnani that is absolutely not present with Novak.

      Sure, you can look at his career numbers and say it’s unlikely he has the breakthrough many have had before him, but you CANNOT say it’s impossible.

    81. DRed

      JK47:
      I’m gonna personally Gilloolly this motherfucker myself so I don’t have to watch him play.

      He’s played a total of 66 games over the last two years. You won’t even have to waste your time.

    82. JK47

      ess-dog:
      Yeah, this was about trading a 1st to lop off those 2 extra Novak years. If anything, it gives us an extra roster spot to fool around with and hopefully find the next Lin.

      This is why the Knicks suck, and will suck for the forseeable future. Because they do dumb shit, and then they try to fix the dumb shit they did by doing DUMBER shit. This is exactly why we’ve won one playoff series in 13 years.

    83. ruruland

      EB:

      Maybe we thought we needed more offense?? Oh wait we were good on offense, it was our defense that sucked.

      Not when it mattered.

    84. EB

      ruruland: Sure, you can look at his career numbers and say it’s unlikely he has the breakthrough many have had before him, but you CANNOT say it’s impossible.

      Not impossible just exceedingly unlikely.

    85. BigBlueAL

      JK47:
      The fact that there is yet ANOTHER first round fucking draft pick going out the door… This franchise is a goddamned joke.I mean, really, what am I doing with my life?Surely there must be better ways to spend my time than watching this bunch of losers.Seriously.Andrea Bargnani.What have I done to deserve this?

      Well, we’ll always have that first-round win over a washed-up Boston team.I’ll tell my kids about that someday.

      You sound just like you did in July of 2012 after the Lin saga. This trades makes no sense to me too but at least it doesnt make the team worse. I know the 2016 1st round pick sucks losing but again Denver does have the right to swap so might not be as big a blow.

      Im just trying to find the positives in this move, proving to be a difficult task.

    86. JK47

      Forget about the 13,000 crap minutes this guy has played in the league… He has UPSIDE, bitches. He’s just about to figure this game out. Any time now.

    87. ruruland

      EB: Not impossible just exceedingly unlikely.

      Which was what was thought/said about every single player that had a mid-career breakthrough in a new destination.

      Not all of them had the base of skills and physical attributes Bargnani has.

    88. DRed

      ruruland: Look, it’s not fair of anyone to dismiss the upside in Bargnani that is absolutely not present with Novak.

      Sure, you can look at his career numbers and say it’s unlikely he has the breakthrough many have had before him, but you CANNOT say it’s impossible.

      Players have had breakthrough years. The vast majority of NBA players who have spent

    89. DRed

      DRed: Players have had breakthrough years.The vast majority of NBA players who have spent

      Whoops. Anyhow, Bargnani has spent a long time in the league and has been getting worse. It’s highly unlikely that he’s better than Novak next year.

    90. ruruland

      JK47:
      Forget about the 13,000 crap minutes this guy has played in the league… He has UPSIDE, bitches.He’s just about to figure this game out.Any time now.

      Well, the facetiousness will be met with some long posts you’re going to have to acknowledge.

    91. ephus

      More cap space in 2015. A guy who could be an offensive force on the second unit. Trading picks that are extremely unlikely to be in the lottery. Trading a “center” who could not get off of the bench even when the Knicks were scouring the D-league for a stopgap center. Traiding away a spot up shooter who made it his off-season priority to learn to get to the rim against over-aggressive close-outs and still DID NOT GET A SINGLE DUNK OR LAYUP all season.

      Even if this does not go well (and I am an optimist), what of value are the Knicks giving up?

    92. JK47

      ruruland: Well, the facetiousness will be met with some long posts you’re going to have to acknowledge.

      There’s two years of basketball left on his contract, and his crappy play is something YOU’RE going to have to acknowledge.

    93. JK47

      ephus:
      More cap space in 2015.A guy who could be an offensive force on the second unit.Trading picks that are extremely unlikely to be in the lottery.Trading a “center” who could not get off of the bench even when the Knicks were scouring the D-league for a stopgap center.Traiding away a spot up shooter who made it his off-season priority to learn to get to the rim against over-aggressive close-outs and still DID NOT GET A SINGLE DUNK OR LAYUP all season.

      Even if this does not go well (and I am an optimist), what of value are the Knicks giving up?

      First round draft pick.

    94. KnickfaninNJ

      massive: The point is that we’d be giving up two quality rotation players and a 1st round draft pick to give minutes to a worse version of a player we already have who doesn’t even get minutes. That’s unacceptable.

      I am really not sure that Camby counts as a “quality rotation player”. I agree the draft choice is more worrisome. Novak for Bargnani, you give up some shooting but you get some drive capability and you also get a big expiring contract in 2013-14. I agree he’s kind of similar to Copeland,but I am not sure he’s worse. If you gave Copeland starters minutes on a crummy team and made him the go to guy, his stats would definitely get worse.

    95. ruruland

      DRed: Whoops.Anyhow, Bargnani has spent a long time in the league and has been getting worse.It’s highly unlikely that he’s better than Novak next year.

      Highly unlikely? I would certainly disagree with that.

    96. ess-dog

      JK47: This is why the Knicks suck, and will suck for the forseeable future.Because they do dumb shit, and then they try to fix the dumb shit they did by doing DUMBER shit.This is exactly why we’ve won one playoff series in 13 years.

      Who would you want to get for that pupu platter? Dirk? Pau? Lebron?

    97. ruruland

      ephus:
      More cap space in 2015.A guy who could be an offensive force on the second unit.Trading picks that are extremely unlikely to be in the lottery.Trading a “center” who could not get off of the bench even when the Knicks were scouring the D-league for a stopgap center.Traiding away a spot up shooter who made it his off-season priority to learn to get to the rim against over-aggressive close-outs and still DID NOT GET A SINGLE DUNK OR LAYUP all season.

      Even if this does not go well (and I am an optimist), what of value are the Knicks giving up?

      Exactly. The first round pick has some value and shouldn’t have been included, but I basically agree with you.

      Novak could not play when it mattered and that was never going to change.

      Bargnani, this is talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRr7jgb-FDM

    98. ephus

      Yes, the Knicks are giving up a first round pick. But it is virtually impossible that it is a lottery pick. That would require both the Knicks and the Nuggets to miss the playoffs in 2015-16.

    99. ruruland

      KnickfaninNJ: I am really not sure that Camby counts as a “quality rotation player”.I agree the draft choice is more worrisome.Novak for Bargnani, you give up some shooting but you get some drive capability and you also get a big expiring contract in 2013-14.I agree he’s kind of similar to Copeland,but I am not sure he’s worse.If you gave Copeland starters minutes on a crummy team and made him the go to guy, his stats would definitely get worse.

      This changes NOTHING with Copeland. There is still a chance he resigns and takes all of Bargnani’s minutes.

      Bargnani is simply taking all of the minutes Novak and Camby were to get, which could have been quite minimal.

      Or if he earns them, Bargnani will play.

    100. max fisher-cohen

      I totally wouldn’t mind the deal if not for the Knicks giving up another damn pick. It’s not like Novak and Camby were impact players, and if anything, it clears cap room in 2015 by getting rid of Novak. He’s been really awful most of his career, but he’s a shooting big, which the knicks really really need, and he has been playing on a hopeless team for a while.

      I can think of a couple examples of lazy players getting better later in their careers after laboring on awful teams for a while: Jason Terry after he left the Hawks, and Zach Randolph when he joined the Grizzlies.

      Still though I’m not giving up our pick in this deal. This should be a straight up cap relief trade for Toronto. Were Bargnani an FA this summer, he’d be making $1-$3m. We’re saving Toronto like $8m in this swap, and that should be enough.

    101. BigBlueAL

      I mean I get the bewilderment over this trade but really all this anger is basically over a 2016 1st round pick which the Knicks dont even have full control over. I made fun of the Lin overreaction last year but that was something that really looked bad at the time, this trade to me isnt worth any angst over.

    102. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen:
      I totally wouldn’t mind the deal if not for the Knicks giving up another damn pick. It’s not like Novak and Camby were impact players, and if anything, it clears cap room in 2015 by getting rid of Novak. He’s been really awful most of his career, but he’s a shooting big, which the knicks really really need, and he has been playing on a hopeless team for a while.

      I can think of a couple examples of lazy players getting better later in their careers after laboring on awful teams for a while: Jason Terry after he left the Hawks, and Zach Randolph when he joined the Grizzlies.

      Still though I’m not giving up our pick in this deal. This should be a straight up cap relief trade for Toronto. Were Bargnani an FA this summer, he’d be making $1-$3m. We’re saving Toronto like $8m in this swap, and that should be enough.

      Agreed, Masaii was purportedly not working with just Grunwald, clearly the pick was to beat the other deals on the table.

    103. KnickfaninNJ

      Another point is that the Knicks can’t count on keeping Copeland. Remember they have limited resources to resign Copeland, JR and Prigioni. So maybe Bargnani would be Cope’s replacement, rather than his competition.

    104. DRed

      ruruland: Exactly. The first round pick has some value and shouldn’t have been included, but I basically agree with you.

      Novak could not play when it mattered and that was never going to change.

      Bargnani, this is talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRr7jgb-FDM

      Novak could not play when it mattered because his coach wouldn’t put him on the floor. If win score is the stat you like today, Novak’s WS/48 in the playoffs this year was .207

    105. ephus

      If you assume that pick will be #18, here are the #18 picks for the last decade:

      2013 – Shane Larkin
      2012 – Terrence Jones
      2011 – Chris Singleton
      2010 – Eric Bledsoe
      2009 – Ty Lawson
      2008 – JaVale McGee
      2007 – Marco Bellineli
      2006 – Olekisey Pecherov (who???)
      2005 – Gerald Green
      2004 – J.R. Smith

      I think it is fair to assume that the player that the Raptors will get with the draft pick is a well regarded guard who may or may not turn into a rotation player.

    106. ruruland

      KnickfaninNJ:
      Another point is that the Knicks can’t count on keeping Copeland.Remember they have limited resources to resign Copeland, JR and Prigioni. So maybe Bargnani would be Cope’s replacement, rather than his competition.

      Right. It works both ways. I think Copeland is likely gone, but it’s a deal that still makes sense (barring the 1st rounder) if you think he and JR are coming back (or whatever mini-MLE guys or guy is coming).

    107. JK47

      BigBlueAL:
      I mean I get the bewilderment over this trade but really all this anger is basically over a 2016 1st round pick which the Knicks dont even have full control over.I made fun of the Lin overreaction last year but that was something that really looked bad at the time, this trade to me isnt worth any angst over.

      You’re okay with just giving away assets? I’ll tell you one thing: the pick that the Knicks just sent to Toronto could end up being a useful NBA player. Andrea Bargnani has 13,000 NBA minutes that say he is not a useful NBA player.

      That pick is an asset, an asset that could have been used for something other than the sack of magic beans that is Andrea Bargnani’s next two seasons.

    108. massive

      In all honesty, I would be onboard with this move if it weren’t for the 1st rounder. Bargnani won’t have a choice but to play basketball the right way on this team. I can think of 14 players on the Knicks opening day roster that are better than him, so there’s a clear hierarchy on this team. Blatche is a good example of how a terrible player became a valuable contributor on a playoff team. If I were a betting man, I would say he either has a TS% above .550 with 7 rebounds/36 or he doesn’t play over 1,000 munutes next season. Woodson is more than happy with running 3 guards, Melo, and a center out there. So he’ll either produce, or make us all mad that we gave up a 2016 first rounder.

      He sure will be a pain for Indiana and Chicago to defend, though.

    109. ruruland

      DRed: Novak could not play when it mattered because his coach wouldn’t put him on the floor.If win score is the stat you like today, Novak’s WS/48 in the playoffs this year was .207

      He couldn’t play because he couldn’t contribute. Most of his shots in the playoffs came with the game in hand.

      You cannot keep non-factors on the floor in the playoffs if they aren’t decent defenders.

    110. ruruland

      JK47: You’re okay with just giving away assets?I’ll tell you one thing: the pick that the Knicks just sent to Toronto could end up being a useful NBA player.Andrea Bargnani has 13,000 NBA minutes that say he is not a useful NBA player.

      That pick is an asset, an asset that could have been used for something other than the sack of magic beans that is Andrea Bargnani’s next two seasons.

      That’s simply not true.

      He was awful the last two years, but has certainly had solid seasons among his 7, even with his usage WAY higher than it should have been.

    111. ruruland

      massive:
      In all honesty, I would be onboard with this move if it weren’t for the 1st rounder. Bargnani won’t have a choice but to play basketball the right way on this team. I can think of 14 players on the Knicks opening day roster that are better than him, so there’s a clear hierarchy on this team. Blatche is a good example of how a terrible player became avaluable contributor on a playoff team. If I were a betting man, I would say he either has a TS% above .550 with 7 rebounds/36 or he doesn’t play over 1,000 munutes next season. Woodson is more than happy with running 3 guards, Melo, and a center out there. So he’ll either produce, or make us all mad that we gave up a 2016 first rounder.

      He sure will be a pain for Indiana and Chicago to defend, though.

      Blatche is a great example. Randolph and Terry work, too, MFC.

    112. Hubert

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I don’t know why people keep comparing Copeland to Bargnani, it’s Novak that’s mentioned in the trade.

      Because we’re most likely losing Copeland, and Bargani is taking the role of floor-stretching 4/5 who can’t rebound or play defense. Only he’s doing it for 12x the cost of Copeland last year.

      I think Bargnani can do as well as Copeland next year in a more limited role. My only problem – and it’s a major problem – is it worth giving a 2018 first round pick to get a guy to replace the production of a guy you picked up off the scrap heap?

    113. BigBlueAL

      JK47: You’re okay with just giving away assets?I’ll tell you one thing: the pick that the Knicks just sent to Toronto could end up being a useful NBA player.Andrea Bargnani has 13,000 NBA minutes that say he is not a useful NBA player.

      That pick is an asset, an asset that could have been used for something other than the sack of magic beans that is Andrea Bargnani’s next two seasons.

      I dunno man, I just cant get that worked up over losing a 1st rounder in 2016 which again the Knicks dont even have full control of. This trade does nothing to damper my excitement over next season and actually helps make the summer of 2015 more intriguing (in a good way).

      Call me naive if you want.

    114. er

      ruruland: Exactly. The first round pick has some value and shouldn’t have been included, but I basically agree with you.

      Novak could not play when it mattered and that was never going to change.

      Bargnani, this is talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRr7jgb-FDM

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMQIjvJtIWo

      Novak cant do this either. The trade could be a major boon. Dont forget he can also help with the blow of losing Earl. And even if Earl comes back it can help to lessen the load. Its also funny how much this team will have compared to last year.

    115. jon abbey

      at least it frees up a roster spot, that’s all I got.

      I may try to stop rooting for the Knicks before next season, despite the 30+ years I’ve put in thus far/ we’ll see how the rest of the offseason goes.

    116. er

      jon abbey:
      at least it frees up a roster spot, that’s all I got.

      I may try to stop rooting for the Knicks before next season, despite the 30+ years I’ve put in thus far/ we’ll see how the rest of the offseason goes.

      and cap space in 2 years lol

    117. JK47

      Bargnani’s defense is just toxic, just horrifically bad. He’s got to be the worst help defender in the NBA. Even in his “good” seasons he was a net negative because of his shitty defense and rebounding. As bad as he looks on paper, he is actually quite a bit worse than that because numbers do not capture his awfulness on the defensive end.

      Actually, there are some numbers that do sort of capture his awfulness: he played over 2,000 minutes three times. The Raptors’ ranked 22nd, 30th and 30th in those three seasons in defensive rating.

    118. ruruland

      DRed: So what the fuck are we going to do with Bargnani?As a riposte to your youtube clip-Bargnani, this is a really bad basketball player

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bargnan01.html

      D, we/I have acknowledged that his career stats and performance thus far, in aggregate, are quite poor.

      Let’s try to move beyond the very obvious part of the discussion. Again, we all understand that the most likely scenario is that he’s as bad as he’s been.

      How likely is the tricky part, how good he can be is the tricky part, figuring out the upside.

      Let’s think a little less black and white, shall we?

    119. MeloDrama

      DRed: Novak could not play when it mattered because his coach wouldn’t put him on the floor.If win score is the stat you like today, Novak’s WS/48 in the playoffs this year was .207

      Set NBA record for 3′s made. BENCH SHOOTERS.

    120. Hubert

      massive: The point is that we’d be giving up two quality rotation players and a 1st round draft pick to give minutes to a worse version of a player we already have who doesn’t even get minutes. That’s unacceptable.

      Dude, Novak & Camby are not quality rotation players. The ONLY bad thing about this deal is the 2018 1st. Other than that, it’s low risk, high reward.

    121. JK47

      If Bargnani was a hard-working dude who just hadn’t gotten the breaks, that would be one thing. But by all accounts he’s a straight up dog: an aloof, lackadaisical lump of a guy who believes he’s above such things as playing hard on the defensive end, boxing out, hustling for loose balls, etc. He’s one of my least favorite players in the NBA, a guy I have always hated, so maybe I’m being a little irrational.

      This is kind of like when the Mets traded for Jeff Francouer, I guy I always could not stand. Francouer was a “talented” guy too, but in the end he sucked just like I knew he would. Just like he always had.

    122. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      at least it frees up a roster spot, that’s all I got.

      I may try to stop rooting for the Knicks before next season, despite the 30+ years I’ve put in thus far/ we’ll see how the rest of the offseason goes.

      this is the dealbreaker and Lin wasn’t?

      I kind of understood the Lin thing.

    123. jon abbey

      man, is there any move that ruru wouldn’t defend? we’ve already seen more D in this thread than Bargnani is likely to show all season.

      Seth Rosenthal sums it up nicely:

      “It’s not fair that the Knicks don’t get to make trades with the Knicks.”

    124. Hubert

      BigBlueAL:
      The 1st round pick they are sending is the 2016 one which Denver can swap with.Some consolation??

      Kinda. Gives the deal minimal disastrous downside.

    125. KnickfaninNJ

      Hubert: Because we’re most likely losing Copeland, and Bargani is taking the role of floor-stretching 4/5 who can’t rebound or play defense. Only he’s doing it for 12x the cost of Copeland last year.

      I think Bargnani can do as well as Copeland next year in a more limited role. My only problem – and it’s a major problem – is it worth giving a 2018 first round pick to get a guy to replace the production of a guy you picked up off the scrap heap?

      It’s irrelevant that it’s 12x the cost of Copeland last year for two reasons. One, he probably will get more this year. Two, it’s a good thing that our GM can find people on the scrap hear that are worth much more than their salaries, not a bad thing. I agree that Bargnani’s probably not worth his $10M yearly salary, but this would only be a problem for the Knicks if it made it harder for them to pay other talent. It doesn’t and they are definitely not poor. So I am not going worry that Bargnani is liable to be very overpaid and just be hopeful he’ll end worth at least half of that salary.

    126. ruruland

      JK47:
      If Bargnani was a hard-working dude who just hadn’t gotten the breaks, that would be one thing.But by all accounts he’s a straight up dog: an aloof, lackadaisical lump of a guy who believes he’s above such things as playing hard on the defensive end, boxing out, hustling for loose balls, etc.He’s one of my least favorite players in the NBA, a guy I have always hated, so maybe I’m being a little irrational.

      This is kind of like when the Mets traded for Jeff Francouer, I guy I always could not stand.Francouer was a “talented” guy too, but in the end he sucked just like I knew he would.Just like he always had.

      Blatche, Randolph.

    127. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      man, is there any move that ruru wouldn’t defend? we’ve already seen more D in this thread than Bargnani is likely to show all season.

      Seth Rosenthal sums it up nicely:

      “It’s not fair that the Knicks don’t get to make trades with the Knicks.”

      It would be interesting if you responded directly to my points. I am not Jowles, I can have a real discussion with anyone here.

      I don’t think this is a good move because of the first-rounder, but in the big picture is it a terrible move? No. Could it turn out to be a good move? Yes, absolutely it could be a really good move.

    128. Frank

      This trade on its own isn’t THAT terrible- but if you factor in that it is a correction for TWO mistakes Grunwald made, then it’s really awful. Grunwald gave Novak a 4 year deal for who knows what reason- knowin that it would stretch into 15-16. Then he gave a crappy pupu platter of assets to Houston, most of which I didn’t care about, but DID include cash, which meant we couldn’t buy a pick this year when multiple picks in the late 1st were for sale.

      I’m fine with Bargnani- he’s awful at defense and rebounding but he does have a recognizable skill and is a more diverse offensive player than Novak. It just feels like we get the butt end of every deal now. For once I’d like to see us be the one that fleeces another team.

      The one silver lining to this (and likely entered into the equation) is that multiple picks were bought in the late first this year- in a draft where the strength was supposedly in the late first. As long as I don’t wake up and read that we gave $3MM also, that’s a reasonable silver lining.

    129. jon abbey

      ruruland: this is the dealbreaker and Lin wasn’t?

      I kind of understood the Lin thing.

      I didn’t believe in Lin, rightly so it looks like. I fucking hate Bargnani, though.

    130. jon abbey

      ruruland: It would be interesting if you responded directly to my points. I am not Jowles, I can have a real discussion with anyone here.

      I don’t think this is a good move because of the first-rounder, but in the big picture is it a terrible move? No. Could it turn out to be a good move? Yes, absolutely it could be a really good move.

      sorry, I am currently blinded by my (possibly a bit irrational) hatred towards Bargnani. even at his best, he’s a defensive sieve.

    131. KnickfaninNJ

      My experience with Basketball trades is that they are like buying houses. The price always seems more than you want to be or think it should be and it’s because other people the same house.

    132. jon abbey

      another bit of possible upside is that maybe this news made THCJ’s head explode. :)

    133. Hubert

      Honestly, as soon as I found out this was the 2016 pick which Denver already has the option to switch, I’ve begun to chill. That’s probably still a high price (it will likely be a pick in the high teens to low 20′s), but it’s nothing to jump off a ledge over. Was it necessary? Hard to tell.

      But let’s stop acting like Andrea Bargnani is going to put up the same numbers as a complementary player that he did when he was the #1 guy in Toronto.

      PLENTY of talented guys who couldn’t be a #1 option have become valuable role players on good teams.

      This is a decent deal.

      I am curious if Toronto could have gotten a #1 from any other team in the league, though. We’ll never know.

    134. ephus

      Hubert:
      Honestly, as soon as I found out this was the 2016 pick which Denver already has the option to switch, I’ve begun to chill.That’s probably still a high price (it will likely be a pick in the high teens to low 20?s), but it’s nothing to jump off a ledge over. Was it necessary?Hard to tell.

      But let’s stop acting like Andrea Bargnani is going to put up the same numbers as a complementary player that he did when he was the #1 guy in Toronto.

      PLENTY of talented guys who couldn’t be a #1 option have become valuable role players on good teams.

      This is a decent deal.

      I am curious if Toronto could have gotten a #1 from any other team in the league, though. We’ll never know.

      +1

    135. DRed

      ruruland: Blatche, Randolph.

      Do you want the list of bad NBA players who stayed bad NBA players? Because it’s a lot longer than two guys.

    136. Frank

      I actually think Grunwald reads this board and is doing this just to troll THCJ. Seriously, between hardaway, Leslie, and Bargnani, he could not have gotten 3 guys that would rate worse in THCJ’s brain.

      Btw I’ve been reading a little more about bargnani’s last 2 seasons, and it sounds like he’s really just had a bunch of nagging injuries. He hurt his shooting elbow early this season, came back too early, then re aggravated it. He did the same thing to his calf the year before. Meanwhile he was getting killed in the press for sucking ass which probably was a factor in him coming back early.

      By the time this season comes around he will have had 6-7 months off to get healthy. Maybe he just needs a change of scenery like Blatche. One can only hope.

      Btw if you look at his last healthy season, his numbers look very similar to Gallo. Very very similar.

    137. DRed

      Frank:

      Btw if you look at his last healthy season, his numbers look very similar to Gallo. Very very similar.

      Not really. And then you remember that Bargnani isn’t a small forward and they look even worse.

    138. Frank

      DRed: Not really.And then you remember that Bargnani isn’t a small forward and they look even worse.

      Lets just say they’re not that different. It makes me feel better.

    139. er

      DRed: Not really.And then you remember that Bargnani isn’t a small forward and they look even worse.

      well they are built the exact same and are the same height so position is irrelevant. Bargnani is actually an nba sf or stretch four the same as gallo

    140. flossy

      BigBlueAL:
      I mean I get the bewilderment over this trade but really all this anger is basically over a 2016 1st round pick which the Knicks dont even have full control over.I made fun of the Lin overreaction last year but that was something that really looked bad at the time, this trade to me isnt worth any angst over.

      Draft picks aside, I think Bargnani’s brand of bitchassness is something you just don’t want on your basketball team. That shit can metastasize and infect your whole squad.

    141. er

      flossy: Draft picks aside, I think Bargnani’s brand of bitchassness is something you just don’t want on your basketball team.That shit can metastasize and infect your whole squad.

      AMAZING use of the word “bitchassness” kudos flossy

    142. Spree8nyk8

      ephus: I stand by my call.A ten foot one-handed runner is not a layup, even though he made it.He was not in the paint when he lifted, he was not in the paint when the launched and he was not in the paint when he landed.

      Gimme a break man that’s a layup

    143. ruruland

      flossy: Draft picks aside, I think Bargnani’s brand of bitchassness is something you just don’t want on your basketball team.That shit can metastasize and infect your whole squad.

      Do you think that is more a product of the media glare? He was enemy No.1 in Toronto because he didn’t live up to top pick billing. Of course he is going to be scrutinized more than anyone else, and some guys simply don’t respond well at all to that kind of attention.

      No one will expect him to be good in NY.

    144. JK47

      If Bargnani is a regular rotation player the Knicks are in real trouble. He’ll deliver the finishing blow to a defense that is already on life support. Every minute he is out there is a burden on the other four players on the defensive end. Worst help defender in the NBA, doesn’t box out, doesn’t rebound, doesn’t make hustle plays… Please tell me the idea is to just stash him at the end of the bench like they did with Camby.

    145. DRed

      er: well they are built the exact same and are the same height so position is irrelevant. Bargnani is actually an nba sf or stretch four the same as gallo

      Bargnani is 2″ taller, 30lbs heavier, and pretends to guard the opposing center. He still gets outrebounded by Gallo, though, so there’s that.

    146. ephus

      Spree8nyk8:
      ok ephus, this one then

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqF6Nck5EM

      You are right. That was an open court layup off of a steal. I overclaimed when I said that Novak did not have a dunk or layup last year. What I should have said (and stand by notwithstanding your first video) is that Novak did not have a single dunk or layup to make a defender pay for being over-aggressive on a closeout. What makes that so galling is that Novak proclaimed after the Miami series in 2012 that he would work on the “show and tell” so that defenses could not repeat Miami’s strategy.

    147. ruruland

      DRed: Not really.And then you remember that Bargnani isn’t a small forward and they look even worse.

      He’s a power forward that can post and shoot right over small forwards and a small forward that can blow by power forwards and centers.

    148. ess-dog

      ruruland: this is the dealbreaker and Lin wasn’t?

      I kind of understood the Lin thing.

      That’s what I’m sayin.

      Honesty, at the end of the day, this is just the way we do business, same with Brooklyn it seems.
      We bank on the fact that we’re an advertising mecca, and just reset every 3-4 years (erase our cap) and then try to lure away other teams’ best players.
      If you want a homegrown team that actually drafts players they intend to keep and coaches them up, you’re welcome to root for the Pacers (But I sure as hell don’t want to live in Indiana.)

      Sorry, I’ve just come to this conclusion about rooting for nyc basketball teams, and I don’t believe it’s ever going to change.

    149. JK47

      ruruland: Do you think that is more a product of the media glare? He was enemy No.1 in Toronto because he didn’t live up to top pick billing. Of course he is going to be scrutinized more than anyone else, and some guys simply don’t respond well at all to that kind of attention.

      No one will expect him to be good in NY.

      I’ve been watching the Knicks a long time, and I’ll be very surprised if this guy doesn’t end up getting booed mercilessly.

    150. ruruland

      JK47: I’ve been watching the Knicks a long time, and I’ll be very surprised if this guy doesn’t end up getting booed mercilessly.

      If he plays bad of course he will. Out of the gate? No way.

    151. ruruland

      ess-dog: That’s what I’m sayin.

      Honesty, at the end of the day, this is just the way we do business, same with Brooklyn it seems.
      We bank on the fact that we’re an advertising mecca, and just reset every 3-4 years (erase our cap) and then try to lure away other teams’ best players.
      If you want a homegrown team that actually drafts players they intend to keep and coaches them up, you’re welcome to root for the Pacers (But I sure as hell don’t want to live in Indiana.)

      Sorry, I’ve just come to this conclusion about rooting for nyc basketball teams, and I don’t believe it’s ever going to change.

      Right

    152. ruruland

      Frank:
      I actually think Grunwald reads this board and is doing this just to troll THCJ.Seriously, between hardaway, Leslie, and Bargnani, he could not have gotten 3 guys that would rate worse in THCJ’s brain.

      Btw I’ve been reading a little more about bargnani’s last 2 seasons, and it sounds like he’s really just had a bunch of nagging injuries. He hurt his shooting elbow early this season, came back too early, then re aggravated it. He did the same thing to his calf the year before.Meanwhile he was getting killed in the press for sucking ass which probably was a factor in him coming back early.

      By the time this season comes around he will have had 6-7 months off to get healthy. Maybe he just needs a change of scenery like Blatche. One can only hope.

      Btw if you look at his last healthy season, his numbers look very similar to Gallo. Very very similar.

      Nice.

    153. ruruland

      flossy: Gee I’m liking this trade more and more

      haha, this one might actually take a few hours/days to mount a convincing argument.

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