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Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jul 01 2012)

  • [New York Times] Returning to Normalcy With Free-Agent Frenzy in N.B.A. (Sun, 01 Jul 2012 05:54:06 GMT)
    There could be no better sign of the N.B.A.’s return to health than the mad dash of free agency, with teams and players free to negotiate contracts starting July 1.

  • [New York Times] Briefing | Basketball: W.N.B.A. — Liberty Beat Seattle Storm (Sun, 01 Jul 2012 06:02:41 GMT)
    Essence Carson scored 22 points and Cappie Pondexter had 20 to lead the Liberty to a 77-59 victory over the Seattle Storm in Newark.

  • 89 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jul 01 2012)

    1. danvt

      Firsties!

      I mean, Shump Shump!

      Knicks are gonna be good this year, yay. Remember the last time we played the Celtics? I think we’ve passed them and I think it’s awesome the they signed KG for three years. They will gradually sink for that whole time, with potentially no takers for that contract. Then they’ll need to rebuild.

      Knicks are gonna be killer, IF we stay healthy. Let’s look at some likely to possible improvements over last year. Lin cuts down on TO’s. Shump gets all the way back to being the ball hawk we love and improves his shot. Landry finds his stroke. JR becomes the third, rather than the second, option on offense. We get competent shot creation off the bench.

      Grunwald’s job is so much easier this year. He really killed it last season in an impossible situation. Now, all he’s gotta do is get his guys signed and wait for the perfect pg to fall to him. It won’t be Nash or Kidd. I just hate Kidd from when he was a Net anyway. He’s destined for bklyn.

    2. Z-man

      Love the optimism, but for me, not so fast. Re: the Celts, I’m not so sure they aren’t actually better next year. They dis most of their damage w/o Allen. Bradley is very good. Jeff Green will help. Thsy picked up two potentially good players in the draft, especially Sullinger. They still have some cap room. I expect a 50 win season and a top-4 seed from them.

      As for us, I think it comes down to three things: Amare, health, and PG play. If Amare can do whatever he needs to do to become an all-star caliber player again, if only for 20-25 minutes a game, that would be a huge boost. Jeffries, Lin and Shump all need to recover fully from injury; and we need a solid backup PG to limit Lin’s minutes…the guy from Spain seems like a real possibility. I would rather us not re-sign JR because he is a low-IQ player that makes others around him worse rather than better, but either way is OK unless there are cap/MLE implications. Fields, Jorts, TD and Jordan are all X-factors that can’t really be counted on, but will hopefully improve enough to make significant contributions.

    3. Z-man

      So, overall, I still think we are behind Miami, and in the mix with Boston, Indiana, Chicago, Atlanta and Philly. The Nets (if they land D12 and DWill) or Bucks probably round out the playoff picture. I would conservatively expect us to be either the 4 or 5 seed unless either some of the X-factor guys really develop, or a deal out of nowhere happens (Nash?).

    4. JC Knickfan

      I hoping Boston would blow that team up. It doesn’t look like they would any worst next season. Once they renounce Allen they have cap room get some FA’s this year. I presume they will keep Bass, Green and Pietrus

    5. danvt

      Z-man: I would conservatively expect us to be either the 4 or 5 seed

      Yes, and after all the BS of trying to follow this doormat franchise in this maddening league where the minute you try to get better you end up in some kind of court of law or mediation or arbitration, I’ll take a 4 or 5 seed gladly and look forward to having a punchers chance at taking out that smug b–tard ljb and his entourage. If the Giants can beat the Patriots in 2 superbowls we can do this.

    6. massive

      I’m not sure I can agree that Miami is some all powerful beast just as yet, if for no other reason than them not being a deep team and Dwyane Wade turning 31 in January. You saw what a title run did to D-Wade and Bosh; they both came out injured. I really think we can push them if both teams are healthy, especially if we can get one of the better free agents like Ray Allen. Alan Hahn was on the radio last night saying that we could sign a free agent for 6.1 million in a sign and trade, sending out Douglas, Gadzuric, and Jerome Jordan, with the latter two being cut as they are on non-guaranteed deals. So that gives me hope that we can get a really useful player to help up push the Heat.

    7. danvt

      Z-man: If Amare can do whatever he needs to do to become an all-star caliber player again, if only for 20-25 minutes a game, that would be a huge boost.

      Amar’e, if healthy, is a lock to do way better than that and we absolutely will need way more from him than that.

      Z-man: Bradley is very good. Jeff Green will help. Thsy picked up two potentially good players in the draft, especially Sullinger. They still have some cap room. I expect a 50 win season and a top-4 seed from them.

      I’m not saying they’re gonna fall off a cliff, but, they’re not getting better, they’re getting worse, slowly, and that’s awesome. Their big three has definitely played their best ball. I think we’ve already passed them, and they’re not even thinking about reloading yet.

    8. Frank

      Yikes – Berman is reporting that the Knicks have discussed a sign-and-trade for Nash that would pay him more than the MLE. The only trade I can see Phoenix ever signing off on is probably something like this:

      Shump (1.7)
      TD’s expiring contract (2.1)
      Either Harrellson or Jordan’s nonguaranteed contract (760K)
      Gadzuric’s nonguaranteed contract (1.3)

      which equals about 6M.

      What do people think about that? Would you trade Shump to get Nash? We all know PHX considered drafting Shump with their pick last year, so they definitely love him.

      If Nash agrees to it I think you have to do it. We all love Shump but he’s probably out for the 1st 2-3 months of the season and likely won’t really be back to himself until the 13-14 season.

      I think Nash is probably headed for the Raptors, but this has to be tempting for all 3 parties (Nash/Suns/NYK).

    9. massive

      While Amar’e does need to be healthy, we also need his mid-range jumper to become automatic again. We sorely missed that mid-range scoring threat this year, especially now that we have Tyson Chandler.

      Isola is saying that sources around the league think CP3 is still trying to get to New York, but maybe for next summer. I’m not sure of how possible this is, I actually doubt it ever happens, but I know that if we could land a starting 5 of CP3, Shump, Melo, Stat, and Tyson, I would probably cry tears of joy.

    10. massive

      Frank, you forgot the 150% rule. 150% of 6 million is 9 million, which makes it more enticing for Nash. But I would hate to trade Shump, him and Lin are my new Gallo and WC. But this time, we would be trading him for a player who will retire very soon, ans Shump has at least a decade of good basketball to play. Plus it makes our perimeter defense much worse. I hope they like Landry Fields

    11. yellowboy90

      Frank:
      Yikes – Berman is reporting that the Knicks have discussed a sign-and-trade for Nash that would pay him more than the MLE. The only trade I can see Phoenix ever signing off on is probably something like this:

      Shump (1.7)
      TD’s expiring contract (2.1)
      Either Harrellson or Jordan’s nonguaranteed contract (760K)
      Gadzuric’s nonguaranteed contract (1.3)

      which equals about 6M.

      What do people think about that? Would you trade Shump to get Nash?We all know PHX considered drafting Shump with their pick last year, so they definitely love him.

      If Nash agrees to it I think you have to do it. We all love Shump but he’s probably out for the 1st 2-3 months of the season and likely won’t really be back to himself until the 13-14 season.

      I think Nash is probably headed for the Raptors, but this has to be tempting for all 3 parties (Nash/Suns/NYK).

      Why not sign Landry and include him instead. Also if they make a trade like that for any player would that allow the Knicks to still have the MLE or LLE?

    12. yellowboy90

      massive:
      While Amar’e does need to be healthy, we also need his mid-range jumper to become automatic again. We sorely missed that mid-range scoring threat this year, especially now that we have Tyson Chandler.

      Isola is saying that sources around the league think CP3 is still trying to get to New York, but maybe for next summer. I’m not sure of how possible this is, I actually doubt it ever happens, but I know that if we could land a starting 5 of CP3, Shump, Melo, Stat, and Tyson, I would probably cry tears of joy.

      IN that scenario I believe they will have to trade Stat to make room for CP3. The luxury tax is just too much now.

    13. 2FOR18

      How can anyone say the Knicks are better than a team with Rondo, KG, Pierce, a proven coach and 10 mil or so in cap space? A core that’s been kicking our ass for years.

      In a fantasy world where most of the following “ifs” happen, I guess:

      Lin making it through a season
      Shump coming back 100%
      Amare approximating his prime and staying healthy
      JR having an efficient scoring year and minimizing bonehead plays
      melo/Lin/Amare coexisting over the course of a season
      getting lucky with this year’s free agents
      melo putting together a full season of efficient scoring and good D

    14. Frank

      2FOR18: How can anyone say the Knicks are better than a team with Rondo, KG, Pierce, a proven coach and 10 mil or so in cap space? A core that’s been kicking our ass for years.

      I might say that “kicking our ass” by 2 whole games in the regular season is not that impressive. Especially if you consider what our team went through last year.

      Remember – we had career worst years from Amare, Melo, JR, Baron, Fields (yes he’s only had 1 year), TD. Yes we had Lin and Novak fall out of the sky, but Boston also had Avery Bradley come out of nowhere. I’m not as optimistic as Ruru might be, but I still think the Knicks will approach 55 wins next year.

    15. Gideon Zaga

      Ok how about some FA signings? We have plenty of months to argue about who we’re better than.

    16. Frank

      Rudy Fernandez anyone? He didn’t get a QO from Denver so he’s an UFA. Doubt he’d take the vet’s min though (prob can make more in Europe) and I don’t think he’s worth the mini-MLE given how badly he’s shot the last few years.

    17. Gideon Zaga

      Wow so the Raptors have reportedly offered Nash 3yrs 36 mil. If we fuck the Raptors on this deal, they will fuck with us on Lin. Now if you’re Grunwald what do you do? I guess it depends on Nash too. Also we can come out if this with both Lin and Calderon.

    18. mr.JayP

      What’s the point of Nash going to a nobody team like the raptors? If winning is a priority, he wouldnt even take that offer.

      What Gruns SHOULD DO is drive the price of Nash as high as he can. There’s alot of good PG’s we could get, I don’t think investing all into a pg is a wise choice. We need to bolster our front court if jorts and Jordan aren’t ready to step up.

    19. Frank

      mr.JayP:
      What’s the point of Nash going to a nobody team like the raptors? If winning is a priority, he wouldnt even take that offer.

      Nash pretty much makes any team into a good team. He nearly took Shannon Brown, Jared Dudley, Channing Frye, and Gortat to the playoffs in the vaunted western conference.

      Toronto’s talent isn’t that bad – they don’t really have any shooting but their draftee Terrence Ross is supposed to be pretty good, and then you add Steve Nash to that and suddenly they’re pretty good. On top of that, Bargnani is maybe the best big man shooter in the league. Depends on whether you believe in Valanciunas, and whether he is a good PNR partner.

      Dwayne Casey is a very good coach too. I can see the Raptors making some noise if Stevie signs up and they can keep Calderon somehow.

    20. mr.JayP

      Frank: Nash pretty much makes any team into a good team. He nearly took Shannon Brown, Jared Dudley, Channing Frye, and Gortat to the playoffs in the vaunted western conference.

      Toronto’s talent isn’t that bad – they don’t really have any shooting but their draftee Terrence Ross is supposed to be pretty good, and then you add Steve Nash to that and suddenly they’re pretty good. On top of that, Bargnani is maybe the best big man shooter in the league. Depends on whether you believe in Valanciunas, and whether he is a good PNR partner.

      Dwayne Casey is a very good coach too.I can see the Raptors making some noise if Stevie signs up and they can keep Calderon somehow.

      Some noise is very different then being a conference contender. For that, retire in PHX and make some noise there. If he wants to win a title, raptors shouldn’t even be on the list. IND,NY,MIA(hopefully not!) are on the top
      Of his list.

    21. Frank

      holy @%& really? From Adrian Wojnarowski’s twitter feed:

      Phoenix has expressed interest with Landry Fields as part of possible sign-and-trade package with New York for Steve Nash, sources tell Y!

      It’s probably Landry + Shump though.

    22. BigBlueAL

      2FOR18:
      How can anyone say the Knicks are better than a team with Rondo, KG, Pierce, a proven coach and 10 mil or so in cap space? A core that’s been kicking our ass for years.

      In a fantasy world where most of the following “ifs” happen, I guess:

      Lin making it through a season
      Shump coming back 100%
      Amare approximating his prime and staying healthy
      JR having an efficient scoring year and minimizing bonehead plays
      melo/Lin/Amare coexisting over the course of a season
      getting lucky with this year’s free agents
      melo putting together a full season of efficient scoring and good D

      Dont overestimate their semi-fluke playoff run. During the regular season the Knicks had a better point differential than the Celtics by nearly a full point and they were even head-to-head at 2-2 and really the Celtics were lucky they even won 1 game vs the Knicks this past season.

    23. johnlocke

      Unless the Knicks medical staff knows something I don’t..there is NO way, and I mean NO way I include Shump in any trade for a 38 year old Steve Nash…if we were talking about Chris Paul that’s one thing, but we’re not. I don’t think Grunwald is that dumb…I think if we offer Fields, TD, Gadzuric and (maybe) Jordan…that would be OK. If not, let’s go after Ray Felton. No way I trade Shump and I mean NO WAY.

      Frank:
      holy @%& really? From Adrian Wojnarowski’s twitter feed:

      Phoenix has expressed interest with Landry Fields as part of possible sign-and-trade package with New York for Steve Nash, sources tell Y!

      It’s probably Landry + Shump though.

    24. Frank

      yowza:

      ESPNSteinLine: In ESPN sitdown Nash said he’s eager to meet Mavs if they miss out on D-Will. But sources say TOR & NYK are his top two (no order) for now

    25. Frank

      To be honest – if there were ever such a thing in this world, Phoenix owes Nash a parting gift. He has been the beginning and end of that franchise for almost a decade now, and they never made a true effort to put the best team on the floor for him. Since they’ll get nothing if he signs as a FA with Toronto, it’s not ridiculous to think they might take some $$ in nonguaranteed contracts + a young prospect like Landry (if they like him for whatever reason).

      But if I were them I’d ask for Shumpert. Would be very hard for FO to say no to that. Certainly any pre-Donnie GM would never be able to turn that down.

    26. BigBlueAL

      I love Shump but sorry if they can get Nash for Fields/Shump its a no-brainer. Keeping Lin and adding Nash has always been the dream scenario.

    27. johnlocke

      I think the front-office says no to that. You don’t give up your star defensive guard for a 38yr old PG who plays bad defense, esp when that player, plays the same position as your cash-cow, neophyte, star on the horizon. Suns aren’t “doing us a favor” by taking Fields…if Nash goes to Toronto they get NOTHING for him…and we’re talking about once more a THIRTY-EIGHT year old PG. Grunwald would NEVER do that trade, I’m pretty sure of it. The only issue is that Dolan is a moron.

      Frank:
      To be honest – if there were ever such a thing in this world, Phoenix owes Nash a parting gift.He has been the beginning and end of that franchise for almost a decade now, and they never made a true effort to put the best team on the floor for him.Since they’ll get nothing if he signs as a FA with Toronto, it’s not ridiculous to think they might take some $$ in nonguaranteed contracts + a young prospect like Landry (if they like him for whatever reason).

      But if I were them I’d ask for Shumpert.Would be very hard for FO to say no to that.Certainly any pre-Donnie GM would never be able to turn that down.

    28. johnlocke

      They play the same position, unless you see a Lin/Nash lineup not being atrocious on defense while being effective and complementary on offense…not sure how you could say you give up your only two shooting guards to get another ball-dominant point guard (especially the defensive ace)…. anyway I would never do that, you would. I suspect only way that goes down is if Dolan intervenes (again).

      BigBlueAL:
      I love Shump but sorry if they can get Nash for Fields/Shump its a no-brainer.Keeping Lin and adding Nash has always been the dream scenario.

      I think the front-office says no to that. You don’t give up your star defensive guard for a 38yr old PG who plays bad defense, esp when that player, plays the same position as your cash-cow, neophyte, star on the horizon. Suns aren’t “doing us a favor” by taking Fields…if Nash goes to Toronto they get NOTHING for him…and we’re talking about once more a THIRTY-EIGHT year old PG. Grunwald would NEVER do that trade, I’m pretty sure of it. The only issue is that Dolan is a moron.

      Frank:
      To be honest – if there were ever such a thing in this world, Phoenix owes Nash a parting gift.He has been the beginning and end of that franchise for almost a decade now, and they never made a true effort to put the best team on the floor for him.Since they’ll get nothing if he signs as a FA with Toronto, it’s not ridiculous to think they might take some $$ in nonguaranteed contracts + a young prospect like Landry (if they like him for whatever reason).

      But if I were them I’d ask for Shumpert.Would be very hard for FO to say no to that.Certainly any pre-Donnie GM would never be able to turn that down.

    29. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah no way I forgive them if they trade Shump, we still have Felton and other options. We have leverage.

    30. BigBlueAL

      SG is the easiest position to fill. Re-sign JR Smith and sign another SG with the mini-midlevel.

      Hey I dont care if this doesnt happen because it will most likely not happen but I would be thrilled to add Nash w/o losing Lin.

    31. alsep73

      Capology question: if we pull off a Nash sign-and-trade (for Douglas, Gadzuric, Jordan and maybe one of Jorts or Fields — Hahn insists that Shump isn’t someone the Knicks would discuss in this scenario), do we still have the mini-midlevel to use? Would that somehow be part of the Nash deal? Or would getting Nash at that salary, plus whatever we’d spend on Lin, Novak and Smith, put us too close to a hard cap to be able to use any other exceptions?

    32. yellowboy90

      Wouldn’t it be better for the Knicks to find a third team to take TD’s contract to help The suns save more money? Theoretically, even if they don’t like Landry they could find someone to take him and keep TD for a year then let him go and save even more money.

    33. johnlocke

      He’s 21 …he should be fine based on medical history

      BigBlueAL:
      Glad everyone is 100% certain Shump comes back in January perfectly healthy.

    34. Frank

      Gideon Zaga:
      Yeah no way I forgive them if they trade Shump, we still have Felton and other options. We have leverage.

      Ummm… Nash will be 50x better than Felton even when he’s 50.
      Re: Shump – I love Shump and do not want the Knicks to trade him. But there is no guarantee that he turns into anything more of a player than Tony Allen. Allen is very good, but he is not the difference between a contender and a champion.

      the other thing is — if we can somehow pull off a S&T for Nash, we STILL have the mini-MLE, and possibly even the full MLE depending on how the #s with Nash come out.

    35. BigBlueAL

      johnlocke:
      He’s 21 …he should be fine based on medical history

      I hope so but Im just saying people shouldnt make Shump out to be an automatic stud for years to come. He is coming off a pretty serious injury and was pretty awful offensively. Since this is an advanced stats site the love for Shump shouldnt be that high considering his awful offensive stats last season lol

    36. johnlocke

      Getting a potential All-Team Defensive SG for peanuts is not something that is easy to replace…esp when you consider that the Heat / Bulls (assuming DRose is healthy) will be the top teams in the East for the next 3-4 years. Adding Nash and subtracting Shumpert, makes us a better team offensively, but a much worse team defensively and one less capable of effectively guarding Lebron and/or Wade. I guess I see brighter potential for Shump than you do, he should have been a lottery pick and you don’t trade lottery picks for 38 year old PGs, especially when you have a young stud playing the same position, but now I’m being repetitive =)

      BigBlueAL:
      SG is the easiest position to fill.Re-sign JR Smith and sign another SG with the mini-midlevel.

      Hey I dont care if this doesnt happen because it will most likely not happen but I would be thrilled to add Nash w/o losing Lin.

    37. johnlocke

      Huh? is that really true? How could we maintain the full MLE while acquiring Nash…I’m no CBA expert, but seems counter-intuitive to me

      Frank: Ummm… Nash will be 50x better than Felton even when he’s 50.
      Re: Shump – I love Shump and do not want the Knicks to trade him. But there is no guarantee that he turns into anything more of a player than Tony Allen. Allen is very good, but he is not the difference between a contender and a champion.

      the other thing is — if we can somehow pull off a S&T for Nash, we STILL have the mini-MLE, and possibly even the full MLE depending on how the #s with Nash come out.

    38. 2FOR18

      I would do that Nash for Shump/Fields trade in a second. Are you guys nuts? I bet even Jon Abbey would do that.

    39. johnlocke

      No doubt the offensive advanced stats were not pretty — however, he showed improvement over the season and you have to put this in context. He was being asked to play PG for much of the season and much of his troubles had to do with shot selection and his overall stats were screwed by a few atrocious games (e.g., Memphis debacle). I think Toney Allen is Shump’s floor as far as his potential goes…

      BigBlueAL: I hope so but Im just saying people shouldnt make Shump out to be an automatic stud for years to come.He is coming off a pretty serious injury and was pretty awful offensively.Since this is an advanced stats site the love for Shump shouldnt be that high considering his awful offensive stats last season lol

    40. BigBlueAL

      Again I love Shump and am not looking to get rid of him at all. But in this scenario sorry I would do it in a heartbeat.

    41. ruruland

      Frank: I might say that “kicking our ass” by 2 whole games in the regular season is not that impressive. Especially if you consider what our team went through last year.

      Remember – we had career worst years from Amare, Melo, JR, Baron, Fields (yes he’s only had 1 year), TD.Yes we had Lin and Novak fall out of the sky, but Boston also had Avery Bradley come out of nowhere.I’m not as optimistic as Ruru might be, but I still think the Knicks will approach 55 wins next year.

      55 wins, just assuming returns to normalcy from Amar’e and Melo, just assuming JR and Novak combine to be one of the better spot-up combos in the game and nothing more, assuming league average games missed, and that Lin and Shumpert return to the players they were pre-injury……

      Just with those things I think 55 wins is closer to the floor than the cieling. And those kind of “ifs” are every bit the same if not more conservative than compared to teams around the league…

      Wade had knee surgery. Garnett could fall off the age cliff any day now, and yes, Bradley is also returning from significant knee injury….besides the fact that Boston’s core is much older than the Knicks, and Miami’s role players are much older than the Knicks role players….

      If the Knicks are somehow able to land Nash without giving up Shumpert or Lin, and if Melo and Amar’e return the way I think they will, there is little doubt in my mind that the Knicks will chase for the best record in the NBA and HCA throughout.

    42. yellowboy90

      2.8
      2.1
      1.3
      [u](760,000+)[/u]
      6.96 X 150%= 10.44

      Side note. If the Knicks can do that for Nash couldn’t they do the same for Dragic or Lowery? I might would even do that for Ersan if tthe knicks would still have there mini MLE and go get Felton.

    43. ess-dog

      I agree with BBA. Shump had a pretty bad injury. Getting back 100% of his lateral quickness seems unlikely. Plus JR is a good defender at the 2. The question is, will Melo defer to Nash? And will Nash be as effective in a Woodson offense?

    44. ruruland

      The sign and trade market can’t be huge. How far out in the future can the Knicks deal a No.1 pick ( I forget which year the Knicks have a No.1) ? Fields, Jordan and Douglas might look like trash heap to a casual observer, but each of them could be very productive NBA players…. Jordan, to me, could be a really good NBA big man.

      He has a longer wingspan than Hibbert, simiarly polished and a better athlete.

      A lot of folks felt Hibbert would never develop.

    45. ruruland

      ess-dog:
      I agree with BBA.Shump had a pretty bad injury.Getting back 100% of his lateral quickness seems unlikely.Plus JR is a good defender at the 2.The question is, will Melo defer to Nash?And will Nash be as effective in a Woodson offense?

      of course Melo would defer to Nash. The opinion that Melo WILL only play isolation basketball is wildly uninformed. Nash would work fantastic with Melo, a far better passer than Andre Miller, who also worked extremely well with Melo.

      Melo wants a pg to quarterback the offense and distribute the ball where it’s needed. The idea that he wouldn’t respect Nash is insane.

      Melo has deferred the main responsibilities of the offense to every pg/combo guard he’s played with not named Toney Douglas.That includes all of pgs/pointforwards on Team USA. He deferred to Lin, essentially a rookie pg, the majority of the games they each played together. (It was the structure of the offense during the losing streak when Melo tried to take control, not Lin)

      Chauncey Billups quarterbacked the offense in Denver, it’s just that Chauncey was a shoot-first pg that lacked pure pg skills… And it meant that Melo isolations were the primary way to create shots.

      Nash/Shaq/Amar’e offenses were ridiculously efficient.

      Melo is far more complementary to Nash and Stoudemire than Shaq.

      An offense with Nash, Lin, Amar’e, Melo, Chandler Novak and JR Smith would rival (would be superior to) any Nash offense in Phoenix.

    46. JK47

      A Nash/Lin backcourt does not really sound like the best of ideas to me. You’re basically turning Lin into a SG, where he does not have the defensive chops to survive. Opposing guards would be going off on us on a nightly basis.

      Two point guards, one ball. Doesn’t make the most sense.

    47. ruruland

      JK47:
      A Nash/Lin backcourt does not really sound like the best of ideas to me.You’re basically turning Lin into a SG, where he does not have the defensive chops to survive.Opposing guards would be going off on us on a nightly basis.

      Two point guards, one ball.Doesn’t make the most sense.

      Nash doesn’t play more than 30-32 mpg these days. Still a lot of pg time for Lin, those possible 14-16 minutes he’s off the ball with Nash…Well, he was pretty effective off the ball last year and having three points of attack against the Heat is the way to go…A lot of double teams on defense,but payoff is much greater.

    48. jon abbey

      2FOR18:
      I would do that Nash for Shump/Fields trade in a second.Are you guys nuts?I bet even Jon Abbey would do that.

      well, you need to keep in mind that if that happened, TOR would likely offer Lin a huge back-loaded deal and really fuck our cap permanently to match.

      but yeah, I guess I’d do that, although I’d be sad. :(

    49. Gideon Zaga

      That’s what I keep saying, we fuck with TOR on this deal and they fuck with us on the Lun deal.

      jon abbey: well, you need to keep in mind that if that happened, TOR would likely offer Lin a huge back-loaded deal and really fuck our cap permanently to match.

      but yeah, I guess I’d do that, although I’d be sad. :(

    50. massive

      I’m not sure if people are taking this into account, but adding Nash brings Amar’e much closer to his Phoenix production. Lin/Nash, Shumpert, Melo, Amar’e, T-1000, JR or OJ, Novak, and Jeffries? And we still didn’t use that mini MLE yet to land a player like Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis (who’s fallen off the cliff, but Steve Nash makes everybody better).

      I hope we get to add Nash, and possibly Ray Allen all while keeping Lin, JR, and Novak. I don’t Wade and LeBron would be laughing at us anymore.

    51. jon abbey

      massive:
      I hope we get to add Nash, and possibly Ray Allen all while keeping Lin, JR, and Novak. I don’t Wade and LeBron would be laughing at us anymore.

      keep in mind that Nash and Novak are dreadful on D, Allen is pretty bad now, Lin is mediocre at best, and JR is pretty good. that’s a lot of defensive holes when you add in Amare.

      anyway, there’s zero chance we’re getting Ray Allen, Memphis has offered him the midcap for two years and Boston is supposedly willing to offer 2/12.

    52. massive

      Yeah, so it’s looking like Celtics will still be formidable. That’s not good news.

    53. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      I kind of don’t want Nash, to be honest, although if I never have to see Fields again, that certainly helps.

      anyway, TOR just offered him crazy money, 3/36:

      http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8119747/toronto-raptors-offer-steve-nash-3-year-36m-deal-sources-say

      Knicks could free upwards of $6 per, I believe. I’m guessing the prospect of contending for a chip plus playing in NY is better than an extra $4 playing in home country for bad team…

      Why wouldn’t you want Nash? The Knicks couldn’t guard Rondo with Shumpert, and the Heat couldn’t guard Rondo with Lebron and Wade…..

      In the hand-check era you go for point guards that can’t be guarded, you don’t protect against having poor defensive pgs, the rules will more often negate the skill sets of guys like Shumpert…

      There is clearly still a lot of value in having a stud like Shumpert..

      It’s not just the ridiculously efficient shooting and unmatched passing and penetration, it’s the fact that he has one of the lower fga per 36 minutes in the league .

    54. ruruland

      jon abbey: keep in mind that Nash and Novak are dreadful on D, Allen is pretty bad now, Lin is mediocre at best, and JR is pretty good. that’s a lot of defensive holes when you add in Amare.

      anyway, there’s zero chance we’re getting Ray Allen, Memphis has offered him the midcap for two years and Boston is supposedly willing to offer 2/12.

      If you have novak, Smith, Lin and Shumpert you certainly won’t need Allen.

      The defense may come back a bit, but let’s remember that the Knicks were still one of the elite defensive squads with Fields, Bibby, Davis and Walker getting a ton of burn.

      Offensively, holy shit. You’re talking about having four of the 10 most efficient offensive players in the NBA before you get to Smith, Lin and Melo, which is a great trio in itself. That’s unreal.

    55. ruruland

      Let’s also recal that with Bibby/Davis as your pgs and no Shumpert/Lin defensively, the Knicks half-court defense against Miami in the playoffs was very good for the most part.

      In fact, I would make the argument that the best way to improve our defense against teams like Miami and OKC is to improve the offense.

    56. mr.JayP

      U can’t let Lin or Shumpert go for Nash. That is your youth and future. Shumpert altho is a great defender will continue to develop into an all around player with a good offense. After melo stat n Ty are collectively pass their peak, Lin n Shumpert would still be approaching it. You have to take that in mind.

      Plus. Look at the work Nash did with Drogiac (i spelled his know wrong lol) as his back up? Imagine having Nash mentor lin n Shumpert. Wowszers.

    57. ruruland

      If you think about it, by adding Nash you’re talking about having four guys giving you at least 100 of your 240 minutes, who will combine for at the very least, something around 630 TS%.

      before you even get to the added value Nash brings in terms of improving teammate efficiency or spreading usage, you still have 3 offensive players who’d combine for at the very least around .560 TS (Lin,Nash, and Melo)

      Offensively, that’s a top 7 I’d take against Miami/OKC every time.

      Even with Shumpert and Jeffries effiency staying the same from last season (extremely unlikely with two up-tempo guards who can pass), that has to be the best offense in the NBA….

      if you believe, like I do, that guys like Amar’e and Smith can get back to their previous efficiencies on such a team, even with Melo just going back to career norms (which won’t happen), that’s a juggernaut.

    58. mr.JayP

      With Nash that offense would for sure be a threat. Another point that should be added, Woodson would have a heck of an easier time running an offense.

      Does anyone know Nash’s 3pt % ?

    59. Frank

      S&T for Nash is a no-brainer unless Shump is involved. Then you need to decide whether the upgrade from Lin to Nash is so great that you give up the upside that Shump brings. I think it is very difficult to make that determination. Defensively speaking (and I hear what Ruru is saying), a Nash/Lin backcourt probably can’t survive for more than a few minutes at a time, especially with Amare in the front court. But if you put them in with Tyson at the 5, Melo at the 4, and JR at the 3, that team will run other teams out of the building, just like the SSOL Suns used to do. Adn TC/Melo/JR can probably defend enough to make it so, like MDA used to say, it’s good defense if you score more than they do.

    60. Frank

      mr.JayP: )

      Nash may literally be the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA. There are studies out there suggesting that.

    61. ruruland

      Even if you just take career baselines and disregard usage distribution and interaction effects (each would favor significantly increased efficiency) here are the career TS%

      Nash: 605 (much higher since PHX)
      Chandler: 609 (much higher last 5 years)
      Amar’e: 596 (never below .615 with Nash)
      Novak: .628
      Melo: .544
      Smith: .544
      Lin: .552

      OKC top 7 last year:
      Durant .610
      Harden .660
      Wesbtrook .538
      Ibaka .556
      Perkins: .528
      Collison .622
      Sefalosha .584

      OKC led league with .567 TS as team (had highest TO% in NBA as well, each of the Knicks primary usage players have lower turnover rates)

    62. ephus

      I understand why everyone is loathe to include Shumpert in a Nash S&T, but I would take the leap to try to win the title in the next two years. I think Shumpert’s ceiling is reserve All-Star (and people thought I was being too optimistic), so I recognize the Knicks would be giving up a lot.

      But Nash/Lin/Smith/MLE/Melo/Stat/Chandler/Jeffries/Novak is a rotation strong enough to contend for the next two years. Everything that I have read about the return from reconstructive knee surgery tells me that although a player can return within 9 months, it is often another 6-12 months before that player returns to pre-surgery levels. I do not think people are really envisioning what Nash would do for Melo’s offense, or how he would re-invogate Stat.

    63. JK47

      Couldn’t Nash basically force Phoenix to take a Shump-less sign-and-trade? He could say, “Look, I’m signing with the Knicks no matter what, so take the Landry Fields/TD/Gadzuric based poo-poo platter or get nothing.” Phoenix’ leverage is pretty much nil here.

    64. mr.JayP

      Is there anyway we can get a sign n trade with PHX W/O giving up Shumpert? fields/JR.

    65. ephus

      If the Suns are doing this as anything other than a favor to Nash (and I do not discount the possibility), then Shumpert and Douglas are the only players that could be included in the sign-and-trade that the Suns might want that they could not just sign with their own cap space. If the Suns want Fields, Jeffries or Smith (which @67 suggested), they can just sign them. Gadzuric is a non-entity, and neither Jorts nor Jordan are meaningful returns.

    66. Ted Nelson

      @1 I think Boston is well positioned. If Sullinger’s back is healthy they just got a top 5 talent. Fab Melo coul learn a ton from KG. i think Ainge has really improved as a GM.

      @5 I don’t think ending up in court for sexual harassment has anything to do with the NBA.

    67. Ted Nelson

      Would be hilarious if they get Nash right after D’Antoni leaves… would be such vintage Knicks. Woodson would still let Melo play iso-ball and the Knocks would still not get homecourt.

      In all seriousness, I don’t think I make the Shump-Nash trade off. I’m too mich of a long-term thinker.

    68. JK47

      @68

      I am hopeless when it comes to understanding salary cap implications, but don’t Gadzuric and TD have some sort of expiring-contract salary cap value? I would think that the Suns might want Fields for his actual basketball playing ability and Gadzuric and TD as some sort of cap-relieving chips.

    69. PrecociousNeophyte

      How can the Suns just sign Fields with their own cap space if he’s a restricted free agent? Isn’t the incentive to the Suns that the Knicks would essentially be waiving their ability to block the signing?

    70. alsep73

      JK47:
      @68

      I am hopeless when it comes to understanding salary cap implications, but don’t Gadzuric and TD have some sort of expiring-contract salary cap value?I would think that the Suns might want Fields for his actual basketball playing ability and Gadzuric and TD as some sort of cap-relieving chips.

      Gadzuric, Jorts and Jordan all have non-guaranteed contracts, so the Suns can cut them with no cap hit. The idea is that they’d be filler to help the salaries match, but the Suns don’t need them and wouldn’t be hamstrung by having them. According to Woj, the Suns are genuinely interested in Fields, and Douglas would be an expiring contract that they could flip at the trade deadline for something.

    71. JK47

      I don’t see how the Suns could refuse a Landry/TD/Gadzuric offer then. They would have to specifically NOT want Nash to go to the Knicks. They have the choice of getting Landry Fields plus an expiring contract or getting nothing if Nash goes to Toronto. I can’t see how the Suns would be in a position to demand Shumpert.

    72. PrecociousNeophyte

      Alan Hahn mentioned the Knicks can include $3M in the deal. So, even if the Suns don’t want Toney the Knicks could basically pay them $1M to take him.

      For the more cap knowledgeable people, is including $3M ok in this type of trade?

    73. PrecociousNeophyte

      Thanks for the info. That $3M doesn’t apply to the amount the Knicks can offer Nash though right? In other words, it’s not the salaries going out + 3M x 150% correct?

    74. alsep73

      The $3 mil is the maximum amount of money we can spend each year to either make salaries in a trade like this balance out, buy a draft pick or reward a team for taking a contract off your hands. We used it last year to get the Wizards to take Turiaf so we’d have the cap room to sign Chandler, for instance. (Which is also why we couldn’t buy a first-round pick in the draft, because the money wasn’t available to us again until today. And if we use it in a Nash deal, that’s all the cash we can spend on trades until next July 1.)

    75. yoda4554

      I’m not sure why people think Anthony had an uncharacteristically poor season. Adjust for league-wide lockout rust, and his season looks pretty much like a typical Melo year: high usage, average efficiency, solid passing/rebounding for a 3, on-and-off defense. He had an excellent run in the first ~8-10 games under D’Antoni before being really bad through the beginning ~10 games of Woodson’s tenure and finishing with a pretty strong ~12-15 final games. This is how he rolls.

      Smith and Stoudemire’s seasons were more uncharacteristic, but not by much. Smith, who seems pretty much an unregenerate knucklehead, has seen his shooting percentages plummet since he was in his early twenties, and Stoudemire’s season is pretty much consistent with the prior year, post-Melo, as well as the pre-D’Antoni Phoenix years.

      People who are calling 50-55 wins next year, on the premise that we somehow had an uncharacteristically unlucky season, sound like the people who were treating last year’s division as a lock and 40-45 wins as a given. We were barely in the top 10 last year by days lost to injury, IIRC; it just seemed worse because we had so little (and such hastily-cobbled-together) depth. (Our best player only missed three games to injury, for instance.) We had players play unexpectedly poorly, but others play unexpectedly well.

      It is a good sign that the team was as dominant as it was post-Woodson. But it’s a bad sign that none of the team’s top 3 offensive options for next year (Anthony, Stoudemire, Lin) only played well when the others were injured or underperforming; and that in the four playoff games Anthony and Stoudemire played together, Melo took three times as many shots, despite connecting on much worse percentages; and that a team that relied as heavily on its defense as we did gave up 117 points per game in the three regular-season games missed by one notoriously injury-prone player.

    76. SeeWhyDee77

      I’m not gonna re-hash what the current roster needs to do..that has been well documented. So I think after goin back and forth I would like to see this:
      Sign a big for 3 mil as insurance for Tyson and Stat as Tyson will be starting for Team USA and has never been known as a model of good health tho he surprisingly stayed healthy in last season’s back to back to back debacle..preferrably Kaman or Hickson..Kaman problee won’t but Hickson just might.
      Sign Hinrich for the 1.4 mil exception or vet minimum (whichever is more accurate if they r not the same lol..I should already know better
      Grab Hollis Thompson and Machado as UDFA’s before we lose em.
      Bring back JJ and JR along with the inevitable re-signing of Lin and Fields
      Roster set

    77. SeeWhyDee77

      OK..I’m finally catching up and reading some of these comments on this thread. My .02 on this Nash thing…
      Steve Nash is a defensive sieve sharp shooting makes everyone wayyyyy more effective point guard genius! In my mind he and CP3 are by far the cream of the PG crop..yes that much better at that position than Rose and Westbrook. Rose is close tho. But he’s 38 and while Lin could learn alot from him..no way I’d do this deal…if PHX wants Shump. I’d even be reluctant to add Nash if they don’t want Shump as adding him would seriously cramp our roster flexibility. Hear me out. I admit I do believe Nash would put us right there with Miami..or damn close. The difference is FA’s r more likely 2 wanna play with LBJ and Wade than they are with Nash, Melo and Stat for 2 reasons: our biggest offensive threats are widely regarded as ball stoppers and Dolan’s policies. On the other hand..LBJ and Wade love to pass. We can’t really expect to find the role players that we need to slide in between Nash, Lin, Melo, Stat and Chandler super cheap, ‘cept Novak and JJ. I don’t see anybody out there willing to sacrifice THAT much money and THAT much opportunity to shine to play for us, our superstars don’t share as well as Miami’s. Even the incomparable Steve Nash can’t overcome that. Now i’m not saying that to say absolutely no to Nash..but we’d hafta be absolutely sure he’s the missing link. Which is why I think Hinrich and a Hickson type is the better FA option. Now as far as convincing PHX to deal Nash our way..I don’t see y they’d hafta have Shump. Listen..if u lose Nash ur in official “rebuilding for a few seasons” mode. Which means they would and should be more interested in shaving salary since they’d be getting a player like Fields who can play in that system. Why add Shump as well? He’s likely gonna cost them more than they’d wanna pay since Fields can get 5 mil. We’ve got leverage Shump or no Shump in this deal

    78. SeeWhyDee77

      And what about takin a flier on Roy? If he can play 15-20 minutes a nite he’d be a GREAT replacement for JR. With his knees I can’t see him signing for more than the 1.4 mil

    79. Brian Cronin

      Wow, Gerald Wallace got $40 million for four years! I guess he knew how desperately New Jersey did not want to lose him after giving up a top draft pick for him.

      Plus, Hibbert got signed to a MAX offer sheet from Portland. Indiana has to match, but ouch.

      Houston made all of these moves to sign Omer Asik? Seriously? I mean, I like Asik a lot, but Houston gave up a lot of players for seemingly no pay-off so far. By the way, the Asik contract (3 years/$25 million) is under the Gilbert Arenas provision, so the Bulls are able to match it for $5 million this year and the next and then the third year will be for $15 million. That’s the kind of contract the Raptors can hit the Knicks with if they so choose with Lin.

      Andre Miller re-signed with the Nuggets for three years/$9 million. That’s a great value.

    80. BigBlueAL

      Yeah this whole “poison pill” in these Gilbert Arenas provision contract offers as Hollinger calls it is really stupid. Knicks might seriously have to think about letting Lin go if this happens. Can you imagine not getting Nash and losing Lin??

    81. Shad0wF0x

      As much as people don’t like the Yankees, at this point I don’t really care. If the Knicks can buy their way to keep players and win, it doesn’t really matter to me.

    82. jon abbey

      BigBlueAL:
      Can you imagine not getting Nash and losing Lin??

      I’m a Knicks fan, so yes. I think Grunwald is being an idiot by not wrapping up Lin while Toronto is still going after Nash, taking a huge chance that I’m not sure the franchise can afford…

    83. yehudi3000

      well, i love lin, but how can u give such a huge contract to somone who only played 20 games and got injured?

      i hope the knicks wont take their time and sign him now.

      also, when you thing about it, i think lin will make more money as a knick, even if he takes 15 mill less contract. new york lights will get him the money.

    84. SeeWhyDee77

      jon abbey: I’m a Knicks fan, so yes. I think Grunwald is being an idiot by not wrapping up Lin while Toronto is still going after Nash, taking a huge chance that I’m not sure the franchise can afford…

      Agreed

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