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Thursday, April 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jan 29 2012)

  • [New York Post] Knicks fall to Rockets; Amar’e says team unprepared (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:20:13 -0500)
    HOUSTON â?? The Rockets own the Knicks’ first-round pick this June from the Tracy McGrady trade. It seemed unfathomable entering the season the issue of the picks’ protection rights ever would come up.
    But as the Knicks flounder without a true point guard and look more beat up and ragged by…

  • [New York Post] Hurting Anthony just needs to heal (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:44:51 -0500)
    If Players only love you when they’re playing, imagine how tough they are on themselves for deciding against suiting up.
    The pressure from within to play, no matter how hurt, is far more demanding than the subtle suggestions of a team’s medical staff, behind-the-back criticism of coaches and…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Shumpert off the point (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:44:31 -0500)
    HOUSTON — The Iman Shumpert starting point guard experiment ended last night.
    Toney Douglas was promoted to starting point guard last night for rookie Shumpert, but then played so poorly he got benched for third-string Jeremy Lin for the final 20 minutes of the Knicks’ 97-84 loss to the Rockets…

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks fall to Rockets for ninth loss in 10 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:16:57 EST)
    Things have gotten so tough for the Knicks and coach Mike D'Antoni that he went deep into his bench in hopes of generating something Saturday night.

  • [New York Newsday] Shumpert already wearing down (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:11:46 EST)
    Iman Shumpert is only 21 years old, but he's already wearing down. The rookie guard has had cramps, back issues and problems with both knees and one of his ankles.

  • [New York Times] Rockets 97, Knicks 84: Wheels Come Off for Knicks Against Rockets (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:50:12 GMT)
    The Knicks absorbed a rout by the Rockets to conclude a 1-3 trip. They have lost nine of their last 10 games, the last two without the injured Carmelo Anthony, to fall to 7-13.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Short-Handed Bucks Send Lakers to Another Road Loss (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:54:06 GMT)
    Drew Gooden scored 23 points as Milwaukee dropped Los Angeles to 1-7 on the road this season.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Trample Travel-Sick Lakers (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:50:02 GMT)
    The Milwaukee Bucks, missing key starters, stunned the travel-sick Los Angeles Lakers 100-89 Saturday, helped by a herculean effort from Drew Gooden.

  • [New York Times] Dudley Shoots Suns Past Grizzlies 86-84 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:01:00 GMT)
    Jared Dudley made two free throws with 3.3 seconds remaining to lift the Phoenix Suns to an 86-84 victory over the Memphis Grizzlies on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Hayward, Jazz Spoil Jimmer’s Return to Utah 96-93 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:13:02 GMT)
    Gordon Hayward scored a season-high 21 points and C.J. Miles added 20 as the Utah Jazz snapped a two-game losing streak, defeating Sacramento 96-93 and spoiling Jimmer Fredette’s return to the state where “Jimmermania” began.

  • [New York Times] Depleted Bucks Upset Lakers 100-89 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:41:29 GMT)
    The injury-hit Milwaukee Bucks stunned the visiting Los Angeles Lakers 100-89 Saturday helped by a herculean effort from Drew Gooden.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Keep Lakers’ Road Woes Going With 100-89 Win (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 07:58:07 GMT)
    MILWAUKEE (AP) — Drew Gooden scored 23 points and the undermanned Milwaukee Bucks made sure the Lakers’ road struggles continued, beating Los Angeles 100-89 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Budinger, Dalembert Lead Rockets Past Knicks 97-84 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:34:12 GMT)
    Chase Budinger scored 19 points, Samuel Dalembert grabbed 14 rebounds and the Houston Rockets beat the New York Knicks 97-84 on Saturday night for their ninth win in 10 games.

  • [New York Times] McGee’s Leads Wizards Over Bobcats Again 102-99 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:10:10 GMT)
    JaVale McGee scored 22 points and had 10 rebounds as the Washington Wizards defeated the Charlotte Bobcats for the second time in a week, 102-99 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Iguodala Leads 76ers Past Pistons 95-74 (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:37:00 GMT)
    Andre Iguodala recorded the eighth triple-double of his career with 10 points, 10 assists and 10 rebounds, and the Philadelphia 76ers won their second straight game with a 95-74 victory over the struggling Detroit Pistons on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Knicks’ Anthony Is Resting His Ailing Body (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:27:30 GMT)
    With ankle and wrist injuries, Carmelo Anthony will get at least a four-day break before returning to the Knicks’ lineup.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Amid Players Hoping for N.B.A., a Few Trying to Get Back (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:33:42 GMT)
    Rafer Alston, a streetball legend and longtime N.B.A. veteran, may join Antoine Walker and other older players trying to work their way back through the league’s development league.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: A Slimmer Curry Aims to Regain Relevance (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:34:23 GMT)
    Now with the Miami Heat, Eddy Curry is said to have lost about 100 pounds since his departure from the Knicks.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks drop 9th out of last 10 games vs. Rockets (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:37:27 GMT)
    The Knicks, playing their fourth road game in five nights, collapsed in the second half and were embarrassed by the Houston Rockets, losing 97-84.

  • [New York Daily News] D’Antoni needs to turn Knicks around in a hurry (Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:51:01 GMT)
    If Isiah Thomas, Glen Grunwald and Mike Woodson weren’t college teammates at Indiana more than three decades ago, Mike D’Antoni would still be justified feeling threatened that those three were spotted together on Thursday in Miami.

  • 109 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jan 29 2012)

    1. hoolahoop

      What’s wrong with the knicks?

      THE SHIP BE SINKING.

      How much could it sink?

      THE SKY’S THE LIMIT.

      – MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON

    2. hoolahoop

      We live in a society where everything is over hyped. Events, celebrities, and not least of all, sports. The media went into uber-hype mode preceding the Melo trade, and J. Dolan made a bone headed deal that destroyed a decent team in rebuilding mode.
      But, Dantoni and Walsh are to blame as well. They both endorsed the trade. As for those two, if at their age and making that type of money, and it’s your job, and you still don’t have the balls to say what you feel, what type of man are you? They’re to blame, as well.
      So, the knicks are left without a team that played well together and easy to root for, to a star studded, over hyped, over paid group that it’s own fans cannot embrace.

    3. Roshi

      Geez, Amare is doing everything possible to blame just about anyone except D’antoni. When you say ‘unprepared’, though, regardless of how you clarify, sure seems like that is the coach’s primary responsibility? I’m not a big fan of mid-season coaching changes, but I agree with previous poster that it’s time to see what Woodson can do. Despite the switching constantly, he (and Chandler) have certainly improved the defense, and he did manage to skipper Atlanta to respectable outcomes for several years. Right now we’re going down in flames…either we shoot lights out or get the doors blown off. Need to make a drastic change.

    4. hoolahoop

      Dantoni seems to be best suited for a high basketball IQ team that thrives in fast break offense.
      It could have been a lot of fun if the management got the right pieces for this system. Instead, they got a hodgepodge of big names and no-names that made a disgusting porridge.
      Bottom line: Dantoni has no clue. Must go.

    5. Degree_Absolute

      I am not ready to see D’Antoni go. I think on some levels it was good for him to stick with TD at the point for this long. Showing faith in your players is important, but I think last night’s performance kicked some screws loose. TD is not right at all physically or mentally.

      Either BD is coming back on Tuesday or Lin is getting most of TD’s minutes. D’Antoni knows that he needs someone, anyone, to drive to the hoop and not play scared/confused. Lin did not play great, but he clearly has a plan out there and knows what a PG needs to do in this offense.

    6. BahoPuwet

      time 2 give Mike D I’m Phony his walking papers. Where’s the improved D courtesy of Mike Woodson? Time for Glen Grunwald 2 clean house and obtain DJ Mbenga, Adam Morrison, and The White Mamba…… Brian Scalabrine. Play these guys with J. Jeffries’ enormous talent and with Balkman’s offensive prowess and we got ourselves a winner.

      At least with Assiah Thomas, he made it fun for fans to bash him in the head.

    7. Z-man

      At this point, I’d rather give Lin a real chance than keep throwing Toney and Shump out there at the point. TD has absolutely no court vision, he dribbles in circles and misses passing angle after passing angle. Shump is just too raw and really is more of a 2.

      I am also worried that Baron has had a setback. If he doesn’t come back soon, it may be too late.

    8. hoolahoop

      Degree_Absolute:
      I am not ready to see D’Antoni go.I think on some levels it was good for him to stick with TD at the point for this long.Showing faith in your players is important, but I think last night’s performance kicked some screws loose.TD is not right at all physically or mentally.

      Either BD is coming back on Tuesday or Lin is getting most of TD’s minutes.D’Antoni knows that he needs someone, anyone, to drive to the hoop and not play scared/confused.Lin did not play great, but he clearly has a plan out there and knows what a PG needs to do in this offense.

      You’re point is well taken. How can you blame a coach for the faults of a team with no real PG?
      On the other hand, if there was no coach at all, they wouldn’t have less wins.
      The BD is just another, excuse that will immediately lead to the nexr excuse. BD has a shoot first, coach headache history. Now, suddenly he’s the savior. . . as was Dantoni, Amare, Melo-bury, TC, now BD, and the list goes on.

    9. joe

      there are a few things for one i dont think mike quit at all on his team he is just lost as hell on what to do……………b-diddy will help but hes gotta have time…………..amare needs to find his footing and make a decision on what to do before he moves………….i feel the knicks need to try the triangle offense because we have a lack of three things ball movement…………..spacing and player movement i dont care of he hire phil jackson to come and teach the players and coaching staff on it for 1 month we need it………….novak needs to play more cause flat out he can shoot………………lin needs to play to he had 6 assit in his little time on the floor now toney douglas we need to couple him with maybe a ranaldo balkman and pull a trade and get rid of bibby as well once we do that then we can acquire some people who want to run shoot and pass and also have success at it……………im pissed like a mug but i do know it takes time and with a short season no training camp injuries stats bad back and melo thinking hes super man yea its gonna take some time.WE WILL GET IT IN TIME

    10. bobneptune

      Z-man:
      At this point, I’d rather give Lin a real chance than keep throwing Toney and Shump out there at the point.TD has absolutely no court vision, he dribbles in circles and misses passing angle after passing angle. Shump is just too raw and really is more of a 2.

      I am also worried that Baron has had a setback.If he doesn’t come back soon, it may be too late.

      to paraphrase jim mora….” set back…. don’t talk about set back….. the bleepin man hasn’t been healthy enough to play a game since april!”

      i do share your fears as originally d’antoni said he’d only need a practice or 2 (as he must have looked healthy in side workouts) and now he has no legs. the nerve roots for the legs can be effected by disc herniations and cause big problems.

    11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      There’s nothing to be worried about, fellas.

      We have Amar’e and Carmelo locked down for $33M+ per year for the next 3.5 years. That’s more than enough time than they need to “gel.” And once they do… watch out, NBA!!!

      Yeah, Chandler only scores 11 ppg, so maybe he’s A LITTLE overpaid — I mean, the guy can only dunk and rebound, who cares?! — but he should be a good enough role player to support our stars.

      And once everyone’s healthy, we’re going to have an AWESOME team ahead of us. Baron Davis is easily one of the best point guards in the league. Remember when he beat the Mavs in ’07? Dude is still that good. Point guards age like fine wine.

      7-13 is nothing to be worried about. The team is obviously much better than their win total or pythagorean expected wins suggests. Don’t forget: we have Carmelo!

      It’s obviously a “gel” thing. Carmelo makes everyone around him better, so imagine how bad Toney Douglas would be with (ew!) Gallo on the wing!?!?!?

      This ship just ain’t be gelled, yet.

    12. JK47

      @12

      We also have a superstar shooting guard from Stanford who is just about to break out and remind everybody of how he “produces more wins” than Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose.

      It’s all good guys!

    13. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man:
      If we could only trade Melo and Amare for Faried and Blair, our problems would be solved!

      You mean opening up $30M+ in salary cap space while picking up two young, productive players still on their rookie scale contracts?

      You wouldn’t make that trade with Howard and Williams on the open market next season?

      You and JK47 won’t admit that I was right about how bad this team was going to be. And don’t look now, but Fields is slowly approaching his rookie season numbers.

      (Oh, and he makes $800k this season. What a shitty player, huh?)

    14. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      JK47:
      @12

      We also have a superstar shooting guard from Stanford who is just about to break out and remind everybody of how he “produces more wins” than Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose.

      It’s all good guys!

      Fields is overrated by Berri’s system because he’s much closer to a SF than a SG. But he wasn’t overrated by much. A high efficiency “role player” who rebounds almost as well as our “superstar” power forward and posts a positive net possessions figure.

      Why is Fields the lynchpin of this team when there are 3 players making $15M or more this season?

    15. ess-dog

      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/218645/Source_Sixers_Inquired_About_Amare_Stoudemire

      Interesting.

      I would love to see a Knickerblogger poll as to who we would most want to trade (maybe both or neither): Melo or Stat.

      Stat is the more efficient player, but his skills could be falling off a cliff, and his contract is uninsured. Although it should be noted that we haven’t seen him with a good point guard in NY yet.

      Melo is less efficient, but played well before the injuries and is younger. He could conceivably play better in the future with a good team around him and he fits better with Chandler than Stat does.

      Thoughts?

    16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Good god. Preliminary talks about dismantling what looks like a top-3 team in the East for a washed-up former superstar with an uninsured contract that lasts until 2015? Kahn? Isiah? Is that you? Is this… real life?

    17. xduckshoex

      @15: No, Fields is overrated by Berri’s system because he treats basketball like baseball and doesn’t account for usage at all.

      For example, if you take a team consisting of:

      Tyson Chandler
      Kris Humphries
      Ronnie Brewer
      Landry Fields
      Rajon Rondo

      …that would rate very highly in Berri’s system.

      The problem is that their combined usage rates last year only add up to 76, meaning that there are still 24 out of 100 possessions that would need to be accounted for. So these guys would have to increase their usage, they likely don’t have the skillset for it and their efficiency would plummet.

      Rondo is a legit star, but everyone else included in that hypothetical lineup is a specialist who is allowed to focus on doing a few things because there are better players doing the heavy lifting for the team. That doesn’t mean they’re not valuable, it just means that you have to consider that before you put too much stock in a ranking system that puts Landry Fields above the likes of Manu Ginobili.

    18. JK47

      @14

      Dude, I’ve repeatedly admitted you were right about the Knicks sucking. You never stop reminding us for five minutes about what a complete genius you are. So once again: I bow down to your supreme knowledge of all things, and wonder why you are not an NBA GM, since all you need to do to put together an awesome team is consult WP/48.

      Landry Fields, on the other hand, is not one of the top 100 players in the league, and he damn sure isn’t in the top 20.

    19. bobneptune

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      There’s nothing to be worried about, fellas.

      Yeah, Chandler only scores 11 ppg, so maybe he’s A LITTLE overpaid — I mean, the guy can only dunk and rebound, who cares?! — but he should be a good enough role player to support our stars.

      hcj,

      my comments about chandler are only made to highlight the notion that signing him was a panic move. the knicks needed a complimentary center (scoring was likely not needed) who could defend the rim and rebound.

      dalembert blocks shots and rebounds better than chandler and score the same (although he is ONLY shooting 55% from the floor this year). he scores less efficiently than chandler and i’d rather have chandler if there was a gun to my head, but their difference isn’t worth a 400% difference in contract size.

      they were both ufas this summer and had the knicks made the same moves to clear cap space, and signed dalembert they would have had 6-7 million in space to address their point guard black hole.

      hence, by dislike for the move…. not because chandler isn’t a good player, but , imo, his acquisition was a lousy , panicked, allocation of limited, precious resources.

    20. JK47

      I am assuming that if Philly wants Amar’e, the idea is to dump Brand on us. Honestly, I might actually go for that trade, because Brand’s contract comes off the books after next season while the Amar’e albatross runs through 2015.

      No way they make a trade that doesn’t involve Brand.

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      JK47:
      @14

      Dude, I’ve repeatedly admitted you were right about the Knicks sucking.You never stop reminding us for five minutes about what a complete genius you are.So once again: I bow down to your supreme knowledge of all things, and wonder why you are not an NBA GM, since all you need to do to put together an awesome team is consult WP/48.

      Landry Fields, on the other hand, is not one of the top 100 players in the league, and he damn sure isn’t in the top 20.

      You attack my methods, yet they were right about the success of the Nuggets and the failure of the Knicks this season. If people on this site weren’t so angry about that, I wouldn’t feel the need to remind you that, yes, math (!!!) was better than eyesight (!!!) at predicting how good this team would be. Maybe they go .800 the rest of the way and I look like an idiot. Maybe Baron Davis overcomes the odds and isn’t a terrible shooter.

      But probably not.

    22. JK47

      YOUR methods?

      Dave Berri, is that you? Is Dave Berri actually The Honorable Cock Jowles? Because that would explain a lot.

    23. Owen

      God lebron is nasty….

      And it’s scary how skinny Eddy Curry is. Still can’t block a shot….

      I’d trade Melo and Stat for those guys just to clear the books. I’d say Blair has played better than Stat so far too, though I won’t make any predictions about the future.

      Fields was a second round draft pick who played 2500 minutes last year and started for a 500% team, at least until Melo arrived. I agree that Berri’s system overrates him because he ought to be a small forward but he is a very useful player.

    24. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      There’s nothing to be worried about, fellas.

      We have Amar’e and Carmelo locked down for $33M+ per year for the next 3.5 years. That’s more than enough time than they need to “gel.” And once they do… watch out, NBA!!!

      Yeah, Chandler only scores 11 ppg, so maybe he’s A LITTLE overpaid — I mean, the guy can only dunk and rebound, who cares?! — but he should be a good enough role player to support our stars.

      And once everyone’s healthy, we’re going to have an AWESOME team ahead of us. Baron Davis is easily one of the best point guards in the league. Remember when he beat the Mavs in ’07? Dude is still that good. Point guards age like fine wine.

      7-13 is nothing to be worried about. The team is obviously much better than their win total or pythagorean expected wins suggests. Don’t forget: we have Carmelo!

      It’s obviously a “gel” thing. Carmelo makes everyone around him better, so imagine how bad Toney Douglas would be with (ew!) Gallo on the wing!?!?!?

      This ship just ain’t be gelled, yet.

      I don’t like it when ruruland does it, and I don’t like the opposite approach. You know that I agree with you on the majority of your points, but the rhetoric is way over-the-top. How do you expect people to react when you write stuff like that? ruruland does it to intentionally get certain posters riled up. Is that your intent, as well? If so, that’s not cool. If not, that is how it is coming off.

    25. Eternal OptiKnist

      hoolahoop:

      But, Dantoni and Walsh are to blame as well. They both endorsed the trade. As for those two, if at their age and making that type of money, and it’s your job, and you still don’t have the balls to say what you feel, what type of man are you? They’re to blame, as well.e.

      I do not agree. There is such a thing as toeing the company line. I don’t think its any secret that Dkantoni and Walsh loved the team they had last year. You could argue whether they would have wanted or not wanted to add Melo. But they did not want to gut the team the way Dolan did. Now would you here them tell the media that? Never. Not on Dolan’s watch. My guess is that confidentiality agreements abound at MSG. You’ll never hear Van Gundy tell the truth about why he left (dolan), or why Walsh left (Dolan). You don’t think Walsh tried to reason with Dolan? The only reason Dkantoni is still around is becuase he has something to prove..his rep has taken an ass-raping the last few years. Walsh wasn’t putting up with this crap any longer..he basically said, if you want to make these moves Jimmy..its on you..you’re not going to sully my reputation. In a very long, drwan out way, I’m saying. Just because you don’t hear it come from them in a press conference doesn’t mean they didn’t express their opinions. This one is on Dolan…read between the lines.

    26. Ben R

      Both Lin and Jordan have looked good in their limited time as has Balkman as many of us have noted. I hope that moving forward we give them a chance to play more. At this point the devil we don’t know (Lin, Jordan, Balkman) have to be better than the devil we do know (Bibby, Novak, Walker).

      I want to see Lin, Balkman and Jordan get real rotation minutes because at least they have a chance at being solid, between Walker’s boneheaded choices, Novak’s embarrasing lack of defense and Bibby’s general ineptitude we cannot do worse.

      Let’s start it out by giving Bibby’s minutes to Lin, Novak’s minutes to Jordan and Walker’s minues to Balkman and then go from there.

    27. Bruno Almeida

      my god, if the Amare – Sixers rumor is true and we don’t jump at it I will be REALLY pissed.

      Amare + whatever scrub Philly wants for Jrue Holiday + Andre Iguodala would be a dream trade for me.

    28. Bruno Almeida

      and if they are looking to dump Brand, I’d still take it, as long as it involves Holiday and someone else.

    29. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      I doubt they are offering anything more than Brand and filler.

      Why would you give the Knicks anything good right now when they seem desperate to move Ama’re?

      By the way, if Amar’e is traded, that’s the death knell for D’Antoni, right?

    30. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Let’s start it out by giving Bibby’s minutes to Lin, Novak’s minutes to Jordan and Walker’s minues to Balkman and then go from there.

      I think you can get Jordan minutes just by cutting down on Chandler’s minutes. Obviously, I love me some Tyson Chandler, but in a season like this they are playing him way too much. He and Amar’e are currently the only players who are consistently a member of the A-Team and the B-Team (he and Amar’e switch off as being the big man on the B-Team). You want to keep him fresh, so I’d dip his minutes down to 29 minutes a game. That’d give Jordan five minutes a game to start. And if he improves, his minutes can come from Jeffries.

      As for Walker and Balkman, if Melo and Davis comes back, then sure, I could see that. Without Melo and Davis, though, they are so starved for offense you can’t take Walker out of the flow.

    31. Bruno Almeida

      Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
      I doubt they are offering anything more than Brand and filler.

      Why would you give the Knicks anything good right now when they seem desperate to move Ama’re?

      By the way, if Amar’e is traded, that’s the death knell for D’Antoni, right?

      I too doubt it, but I doubted the Knicks would be dumb enough to trade every rotation player on the roster for Carmelo, and it still happened.

      Philadelphia is in that complicated moment where the roster is good, is playing well, but is that enough to win a title? They might be looking for the one “star” to give them an extra edge, and I think Amare would be really, really good with all the ball movement that the Sixers create, plus they can somewhat hide him defensively. Also, Lou Williams is playing really well.

      Obviously this is only speculation until said otherwise, but I still think we need to get rid of Amare’s contract asap.

    32. JK47

      Somehow I doubt whether the Sixers want to invest $36M per year in a Brand-Stoudemire PF tandem.

      I would personally do Stat for Brand straight up because Brand’s contract expires after next season, but if the Sixers would do Brand plus a decent asset, I would think you’d have to jump at that. Which of course the Knicks won’t.

    33. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      I like one of two options:

      1. Trade Melo for a really good point guard (Deron Williams being the obvious example, since he might leave the Nets after this year).

      2. Wait to see if a good point guard (Davis?) can revitalize Amar’e and then trade Ama’re.

    34. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      I would personally do Stat for Brand straight up because Brand’s contract expires after next season, but if the Sixers would do Brand plus a decent asset, I would think you’d have to jump at that. Which of course the Knicks won’t.

      Depending on the asset, yeah, I’d take it as well. Jrue Holliday, for instance, would make taking Brand back cool by me.

    35. Eternal OptiKnist

      Wow…I haven’t heard any of the Philly rumors, but now that’s. 3 rumors on Amare, from CP3 to DH12 to now philly, seems like Melo is basically pushing Amare (and d’antoni) out the door.

    36. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Holliday
      Fields
      Melo
      Brand
      Chandler

      That’s a reasonable lineup, really (Holliday is not even all that good, but mediocre would be a big step up for the Knicks right now, and the dude is only 21 years old). And Brand is a good match for Melo, as Brand can ISO well enough so that Melo’s ISOs won’t interfere with him. Anyone have the exact numbers on Brand’s ISOs? How good is he at it? How often does he do it?

    37. taggart4800

      The Honorable Cock Jowles,
      I once again feel obliged to post in response to you…..sigh
      My frustration with your good self is that you freely change the focus of your argument in order to facilitate you being angry and sarcastic at everyone who you deem less intelligent than yourself. The problem here being that, I am not sure that includes any other descendants of Adam and Eve. Any rhetoric is hard to follow when it has no focus. You seem unable to recognise that 95% of the regular posters here ARE aware of the benefits of advanced metrics and were extremely frustrated at the history of player movement. However instead of saying, give up all hope, many choose to suggests ways and means this mess can be fixed.
      I for one am tired of your miss directed anger, mainly because I agree that the nuggets are constructed well, that Melo is over-rated, Baron is not the answer and that the Front Office has performed poorly. I know these things and god knows if I hadn’t you would have told me. Stop insulting my and numerous others intelligence and direct your passion towards more positive and less tiresome outcomes.

    38. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You attack my methods, yet they were right about the success of the Nuggets and the failure of the Knicks this season. If people on this site weren’t so angry about that, I wouldn’t feel the need to remind you that, yes, math (!!!) was better than eyesight (!!!) at predicting how good this team would be. Maybe they go .800 the rest of the way and I look like an idiot. Maybe Baron Davis overcomes the odds and isn’t a terrible shooter.

      But probably not.

      Hold it.

      I screamed that the big trade was awful without going to the abacus to figure it out. Plenty of people clearly looked at the situation and saw the pieces would not fit together. The knicks blew up a plan that was working, but not complete for a new plan that made no sense except for the word “Superstar”. It wasn’t your exclusive opinion based on your charts, which brings me to my next point. . . .

    39. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      Fields is overrated by Berri’s system because he’s much closer to a SF than a SG.

      You keep stating the superior analysis of Berri and the metric system that is not tainted by subjective human judgement, . . . . EXCEPT FOR WHEN YOU DECIDE IT’S WRONG.

    40. Eternal OptiKnist

      who is reporting the Philly crap? I haven’t seen it anywhere. Trading a package including amare for anything but a big impact player (DH12, CP3, D will) is just a step back and littered with bad karma.

    41. max fisher-cohen

      Let’s face it: while this team is not a championship contender, it is not nearly as bad as it has played. If Melo gets healthy and back to how he was playing in Denver, and Amaré can be 75% of what he was pre-trade last year, this is at minimum a .500 team. My feeling is that we’ll make the playoffs this year as a low seed. Lose to a team that no one expected us to beat, let D’Antoni go, and watch Woodson coach this team to 45-50 wins for a couple of years, each year doing just well enough to justify another go at it.

      There’s nothing Dolan loves more than a huge ego, and that makes Carmelo untouchable. Just look at how he still listens to Isiah Thomas, who made some of the worst moves of the last decade. Like most people who have never had to work for anything in their lives, the concept of success is some mystical thing to Dolan, relating little to analysis or thought and mostly to being force of will.

      Maybe we will try to trade Amaré, but an offer like Brand plus a role player like Lou Williams (no way they give up Holiday) is probably the best we could get for him, even if he does become a decent player again. He’s not young anymore, and he has a huge uninsured contract.

      The only big asset this team has left is Anthony. He could be moved for pieces that would accelerate the knicks’ rebuilding process by half a decade. Sadly, he’ll never get traded.

    42. Bruno Almeida

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      who is reporting the Philly crap? I haven’t seen it anywhere. Trading a package including amare for anything but a big impact player (DH12, CP3, D will) is just a step back and littered with bad karma.

      I don’t see why, Amare is nowhere near the level of those 3 guys and we don’t have any other asset to include with hi in a trade, except the only player who’s been excellent so far, Chandler…

    43. Z-man

      Fields can’t shoot, drive, dribble, pass, or defend. Other than that, he’s worth every penny of his rookie contract. His numbers this year suck, and if they are getting better lately (he had a helluva game vs. those Bobcats) they still basically suck for a SG, or a SF for that matter: look at his 3-pt%, FT%, TS, etc.

      He may get better (I hope!) or may not, but since March he has absolutely stunk, and he has no one to blame but himself.

    44. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      He may get better (I hope!) or may not, but since March he has absolutely stunk, and he has no one to blame but himself.

      Except the same system change that made Amar’e go from good to awful. There’s no shame in being a “system player.” Heck, Amar’e is one of those players and he makes $20 million a year! Fields seems like he is one of those types of players, as well. Notice that Fields’ improved play the last week or so has come with a renewed dedication to ball movement, which is where he thrives.

      As for not being able to shoot – he has the third highest TS% on the team (among guys who actually play) behind Chandler and Walker. Yes, Melo’s TS% has dropped so low that it is below Fields’ right now. If you count Novak as “guys who actually play,” then Fields is 4th.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      @45

      well, I too think Fields isn’t a good player and that he was vastly overrated by Berri’s metric.

      But really, as much as I dislike Fields, he makes 800k and should be our 5th scoring option on the court. This team sucks because Amare and Carmelo have been terrible and we don’t have a decent PG.

      Keith Bogans started 82 games for the bulls last year and they won 62, Fields is not the problem.

    46. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      And if you go by eFG%, Fields is fourth on the team (among guys who actually play) behind Chandler, Walker and Harrellson. Fifth if you count Novak. While being fifth in the team (among guys who actually play) behind Melo, Amar’e, Toney and Shump in usage.

    47. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      And this is not even to say that the system change is definitely the reason why he has not played as well since the trade. Maybe he really did hit a wall, turn into a pumpkin, whatever. However, to act like that isn’t a possible explanation is unreasonable. Now if he continues to underachieve when Baron Davis plays (provided Baron Davis plays the style of play that Davis says that he is going to play), then yes, you can reasonably discount the system change as an explanation.

    48. nicos

      The problem is Fields has raised his efg for the most part by reducing the number of jumpers he’s taking, not by hitting more of them. His eFG on jumpers is still a dismal .368. I don’t think Fields is “the” problem, but he certainly has been “a” problem. The Knicks aren’t going to be able to space the floor until they hit some jumpers or get some penetration from their guards.

    49. Z-man

      TD is an historically bad PG. You might as well have Tyson Chandler playing the point. But that isn’t Field’s only problem. He is missing uncontested shots all over the place. He can’t make anything but the simplest passes. He can’t dribble-drive or isolate. He is a mediocre to poor defender. Stack up the SGs in the league–starting and bench–and he belongs down at the very bottom right now. And at SF, yeah, I’m sure LeBron and Paul Pierce quiver at the thought of being matched up against Landry Fields.

      Is Melo responsible for Fields shooting %65 from the line as well? Did Melo teach him that flat, ugly-ass shot that he shoots?

      At the end of the day, every player in the league is a “system” player to some extent. Again, on nearly all NBA teams, the system requires a NBA-caliber PG, even a Chris Duhon. We don’t have anything close to even Duhon at this point.

    50. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      The problem is Fields has raised his efg for the most part by reducing the number of jumpers he’s taking, not by hitting more of them. His eFG on jumpers is still a dismal .368. I don’t think Fields is “the” problem, but he certainly has been “a” problem. The Knicks aren’t going to be able to space the floor until they hit some jumpers or get some penetration from their guards.

      I agree, but I think that’s a system issue. The current system requires a player different than Fields at the 2. When you had Felton and Gallo and Chandler shooting from the outside and spacing the floor, you could afford a rover like Fields. When you don’t have those players anymore (or you have a player like that in Toney who can’t hit the broadside of a barn anymore), Fields’ position has to be that outside shooter and obviously that is not his game. So yes, it is definitely a problem, but it is not a problem of “Fields is a bad player” but rather “Fields does not fit the role you need him to play.” Similarly, Amar’e is being asked to do things he cannot do either. I don’t think it means Amar’e is a bad player, but rather than he does not fit the role they need him to play. Van Gundy said an interesting thing in the Heat game, that Amar’e has to be able to do things outside his comfort zone. That’s a fair enough thing to ask, but if the guy can’t do it, is it really his “fault”? Amar’e is not a guy you just give the ball to and let him post up – he will get stripped or blocked.

      Honestly, this is another thing that irks me about the Melo situation. Melo is not a system player. It is not like his greatness has been a product of the ISO system. As we have seen, ISOs hurt his effectiveness! And yet he has not yet changed his style of play when he is one of the players on the team who could most easily do so without sacrificing production (heck, there’s a good chance it will increase his production!). That said, it seemed like he was showing signs of changing his style of play in those last couple of games before he sat down, so maybe he will do so. If so, I’ll be quite pleased.

    51. Owen

      Bulls-Heat game, sloppy and incredibly exciting. Going to be an amazing Eastern Conference finals, especially if Deng can get healthy…

    52. Z-man

      Bruno Almeida: Keith Bogans started 82 games for the bulls last year and they won 62, Fields is not the problem

      This is a ridiculous rebuttal. The Bulls have the league MVP as their PG. We have by far the worst PG ensemble in the NBA. Chicago recognized that Bogans stunk and he was replaced and dumped. If Fields doesn’t improve dramatically, we should do the same with him.

    53. Z-man

      To clarify, when you have a PG that can get to the rim any time he wants and can pass the rock as well, and lots of depth at the other positions, you can carry a scrub like Bogans until you find a better answer. Bogans is also a better defender than Fields, and the Bulls are a defense-oriented team with a defensive-minded coach.

    54. Bruno Almeida

      Z-man: This is a ridiculous rebuttal.The Bulls have the league MVP as their PG.We have by far the worst PG ensemble in the NBA.Chicago recognized that Bogans stunk and he was replaced and dumped.If Fields doesn’t improve dramatically, we should do the same with him.

      That’s the point the Bulls had the league MVP, and he played like an MVP… yet, the league MVP gets paid less than our 2 “superstars”.

      That’s the problem with the Knicks, the guys who get paid the big bucks need to deliver, not the 5th guy on the team who makes 800k.

    55. Z-man

      He’s a POINT GUARD! The ball starts in his hands. He doesn’t need anyone to get him the ball in order to do his thing. Most of his points are technically iso’s.

      What is true for Amare and Melo is true for Dirk, Paul Pierce, Howard, and most of the other so-called superstars. Very few forwards outside of LeBron and Wade (more of a SG, imo) can be efficient w/o a decent PG on the floor.

    56. nicos

      Keith Bogans may have started but he played less than 18 minutes a night- Korver played 20 minutes with Ronnie Brewer playing a little two as well. And both Bogans and Korver were better last year than Fields has been this year.

    57. Z-man

      Regarding what Rose gets paid, he was the #1 pick in the draft and lived up to his billing, so it’s not like they “decided” to pay him what they do.

      If your argument is that we should have saved our cap room for Deron or Paul, what was the guarantee that they would come here? We tried that with LeBron and he was available…did he come here? What is the guarantee that Howard would come here if we had the cap room?

      It’s not like we can’t improve the roster next year. Melo, Amare and Chandler will be around for the next 4 years. Let’s see what happens when we get a real PG, even a Felton type, and a couple of decent 2-way bench players (like Posey for the Celts a couple of years back.)

    58. iserp

      Bruno Almeida: That’s the problem with the Knicks, the guys who get paid the big bucks need to deliver, not the 5th guy on the team who makes 800k.

      The problem with the knicks is that there are only 3 players being paid big bucks. The rest of the team is made out of minimum contracts and rookies (and not very good ones, BTW). Chicago this year has 3 guys paid 8 figures, one MVP on rookie contract and a bunch of players paid more than $3 million (kyle korver, rip hamilton, ronnie brewer, CJ Watson), aside of 2 rookies playing good defense (Asik, Taj Gibson); they’re contenders, even with the “horrible” contract of Luol Deng because they have built around a nice core.

      Ok, we have the core: like it or not, it is Amare, Melo and Chandler; i believe it is one of the best in the league. Now we have to fill the rest of the team. Some of the pieces might be there, Shumpert, Fields, Jeffries can be contributors, BD perhaps too. We still need to fill the rest of the team. We have to use our mini-MLE this year, and the MLE the following years. As long as we don’t make stupid moves (Jerome James, Jared Jeffries contracts), we are heading in the right direction. If we blow the team (again) we will be with a shallow roster (again). Miami went to the finals with a shallow team, but our stars aren’t as good as Miami’s, so you can’t expect to do that (well, perhaps if you blow your team and land DH12).

      I really hoped that NY would be fine right now (.500+) and playing very good basketball towards the end of the season. It is not like that; but that doesn’t mean we have to be pessimistic about the future.

    59. Eternal OptiKnist

      Bruno Almeida: I don’t see why, Amare is nowhere near the level of those 3 guys and we don’t have any other asset to include with hi in a trade, except the only player who’s been excellent so far, Chandler…

      How quickly you forget. Last season, after a rocky start, he got them going, the chemistry was palpable. Say what you want about him…not worth the max contract..desperation plan B…we gave him superstar money and he earned it. And besides the numbers he put up and the wins the team had…he LED. The team liked him and liked playing with him. Now, I’m realistic, I’m not saying a straight up trade would do, given his injury history and contract length..I said a “package including him”. He’s no scrub and we should treat him as such..it aint right. Those talking about ‘dumping his contract’ at this point is just wrong. Unless there’s something about his back injury that I don’t know about.

    60. Bruno Almeida

      Z-man:
      Regarding what Rose gets paid, he was the #1 pick in the draft and lived up to his billing, so it’s not like they “decided” to pay him what they do.

      If your argument is that we should have saved our cap room for Deron or Paul, what was the guarantee that they would come here? We tried that with LeBron and he was available…did he come here?What is the guarantee that Howard would come here if we had the cap room?

      It’s not like we can’t improve the roster next year.Melo, Amare and Chandler will be around for the next 4 years. Let’s see what happens when we get a real PG, even a Felton type, and a couple of decent 2-way bench players (like Posey for the Celts a couple of years back.)

      My argument is that if Melo, Amare and Chandler can’t be the core of a championship team without a good PG, then this core is obviously flawed and we have no chance to do it.

      We have $50 million commited to those guys, and you tell me they need an elite PG to work with? Well, that’s not gonna happen then, unless you think Steve Nash is dying to come to NY for the MLE, which I seriously doubt. We’ll have to make do with a PG that gets paid MUCH less than those 3, that’s just the way the league works.

      Melo and Amare are inefficient “stars” who aren’t a legitimate championship core, that’s my argument. Would we be able to get Paul or Deron if we didn’t go for Amare and Melo? Nobody will ever know. But the fact is, the Knicks “settled” for 2 “stars” who simply can’t impact the game in the way other max players do.

      That’s my point, they are to blame, not Fields, he’s not the one who gets paid $20 million a year for the next 3.5 years.

    61. d-mar

      @60 and 61 thank you for injecting a little sanity into the STAT trashing. He’s being treated on this board like he was the worst signing since Jerome James, and some would like to see him traded for spare parts. He’s definitely struggling this season (although has been showing signs of life lately) but the crap he’s taken on Kblogger is just not fair. A year ago we were all singing his praises, I didn’t hear anyone saying he wasn’t worth the money. A year later, get rid of the bum!

    62. d-mar

      @62 I don’ think Z-man ever said they need an elite PG to succeed, any PG would do not that is not named Douglas or Bibby.

    63. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      I dunno, if there was a PG available better than Bibby, I’m pretty sure the Knicks would have gotten him. Who else could they have gotten? I mean, I’m prepared to let Jeremy freakin’ Lin run the point, that’s how bad things are.

    64. Bruno Almeida

      Just to clarify: I love Amare Stoudemire, I have his jersey, he’s one of my favourite players and I would be very sad to see him traded… I really admire him for accepting the challenge of going to New York, and for being the leader he was last year.

      But analyzing in a non-emotional way, I feel this team has no real shot at being a true contender, and since Carmelo won’t get traded (Dolan would never, ever consider it) the best way I see for the Knicks to have a chance of becoming a title-challenging team is to get rid of Amare’s gigantic contract and look for some flexibility and a better, more reliable PG.

      Like Brian said, with our salaries there just isn’t any other options out there better than waiting for Baron Davis to get healthy AND play like he did 5 years ago, which is unlikely.

      We can hope all we want Nash will come to the Knicks for the MLE next year, but how can we know? We kept putting our futures on the hands of future possibilities for far too long, and how well did it go?

    65. Z-man

      Bruno Almeida: We can hope all we want Nash will come to the Knicks for the MLE next year, but how can we know? We kept putting our futures on the hands of future possibilities for far too long, and how well did it go?

      It’s no less realistic than D-Will or Paup coming here when other teams can also offer the max and are in a better position to offer a sign and trade or just a trade and hope like the Nets did.

      Did anyone think that we could get Tyson Chandler after getting Melo? But we did. Nash just might be willing to give it a shot.

      Bruno Almeida: We have $50 million commited to those guys, and you tell me they need an elite PG to work with? Well, that’s not gonna happen then, unless you think Steve Nash is dying to come to NY for the MLE, which I seriously doubt. We’ll have to make do with a PG that gets paid MUCH less than those 3, that’s just the way the league works.

      This not only mischaracterizes what I said (read carefully, I said a “real PG, even a Chris Duhon-type) but it ignores that Dallas and LA both won championships with mediocre (Fisher) or ancient (Kidd) or low-cost (Barea) PGs. They are out there, we just don’t have one now because of the late timing of the Chandler signing. If Baron Davis is not the guy (and I think he will make a major impact even at only 80% of what he was last year with Cleveland) then someone else will shake loose. Me still have the $2.5 mil MLE to pick up an amnesty/waivee should one come about.

    66. Nick C.

      You what is a bit annoying is that the team’s strategy has been to chase the biggest star available with no Plan B. Lebron and the “the toast.” Chris Paul was a large part of the justification for blowing up a young team that was in a playoff position at the time of the trade. Chris Paul didn’t come and we are stuck with this mess still looking for a savior. Was it really so bad to have a young team that might not win more than a game or two in the playoffs but could grow in the future?

    67. Bruno Almeida

      Nick C.:
      You what is a bit annoying is that the team’s strategy has been to chase the biggest star available with no Plan B. Lebron and the “the toast.” Chris Paul was a large part of the justification for blowing up a young team that was in a playoff position at the time of the trade. Chris Paul didn’t come and we are stuck with this mess still looking for a savior. Was it really so bad to have a young team that might not win more than a game or two in the playoffs but could grow in the future?

      That’s the point, why waste it all on the Melo trade?

      @67

      I don’t know Z-man, I understand your point but I’m just not that optimistic right now, I just can’t see how our roster will be good enough when we have so much money tied into 2 guys.

      I don’t ignore the fact that those teams just won championships with mediocre PGs (in fact, Miami played Chalmers and Bibby and got to the finals, another one), but can we really compare Kobe + Gasol, Dirk or LeBron + Wade to Amare and Carmelo? I don’t think so.

    68. Owen

      “Ok, we have the core: like it or not, it is Amare, Melo and Chandler; i believe it is one of the best in the league.”

      Rose-Boozer-Noah-Deng >>>>>>>>Amare/Melo/Chandler/Baron

      Their bench is better than ours obviously. But their core is way better….

    69. Z-man

      I don’t think we know that until we see Baron play. IMO, Rose is (much) better than Davis, Amare is better than Boozer, Chandler is as good as Noah, Melo is better than Deng. I think it comes down to depth and that Chicago’s best player is their PG who makes them all better. Replace Rose with TD and they would be a marginal playoff team.

    70. Bruno Almeida

      I don’t know about that, for me, Chicago’s core is better and the most important thing: they REALLY play defense.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      @71

      and come on, that’s not an argument, replace Rose with TD… if you replace Carmelo with Ronnie Brewer we don’t win 20 games and that’s being optimistic.

      it’s not a matter of trading people position for position, but factoring in the importance of the guy on the team… Rose is by far their most important player, Carmelo is ours, so they need to be compared in that sense.

    72. Bruno Almeida

      d-mar:
      Boston up by 11 with 3 min. left loses at home to the Cavs by 1.

      Irving is really, really good, I’m impressed, kid is not afraid of anything.

    73. Owen

      I bet we win more than 20 games with Brewer. Honestly, I would take Brewer and 15 million in cap space in a flash. R. Brewer is a cheap player who grades out well on a lot of different metrics. Frankly, we might improve by making that swap given how unbalanced our team is right now. Sounds crazy I know…

      I mean, honestly, I’d take Andre Miller rather than Melo right now. (I’d take his career numbers over Melo’s too.)

      I think Amare and Melo are two of the least deserving max contract players in the league. Any team with two max contract guys should be over 500% no matter who else they have on the team. It’s as simple as that. Melo and Stat are just not first tier nba stars (lebron, howard, paul) or even second tier NBA stars….

    74. BahoPuwet

      on a serious note, if there’s no way to get Deron Williams then bring back Raymond Felton. This team played well with Felton at the helm.

    75. Z-man

      Bruno Almeida: @71and come on, that’s not an argument, replace Rose with TD… if you replace Carmelo with Ronnie Brewer we don’t win 20 games and that’s being optimistic.it’s not a matter of trading people position for position, but factoring in the importance of the guy on the team… Rose is by far their most important player, Carmelo is ours, so they need to be compared in that sense.

      Chicago got Rose via a lucky break in the draft. We never had a sure-fire opportunity to get him or any of the elite PGs before the Melo trade. Who ever implied that the team would not need a PG after gtetting Melo? Again, the only “elite” forward that doesn’t depend in large part on a decent PG is LeBron.

      Look, nobody is saying that there wasn’t a better way to use our cap space and assets. If you check back I went on the KB record at the time of the trade saying that we gave up too much. But now there is no turning back and we are what we are. I am still optimistic that the best is yet to come and that the current despair is temporary. Is Baron the answer? Not entirely, but he will help us define what is needed in the context of what is possible. You can’t even analyze this team right now beyond concluding that our PGs are among the worst groups of the decade.

    76. Bruno Almeida

      @77

      well, I don’t really think we’ll win much more than 20 games WITH Melo, so…

      I agree, that’s our problem, 50% of our cap space is tied up to 2 second tier stars.

    77. Bruno Almeida

      @79

      I don’t know man, Dirk won it with Kidd + Barea, Duncan won a title with Avery Johnson, Kobe + Shaq and Kobe + Gasol won 5 titles with Fisher, Wade + Shaq won a title with Jason Williams…

      a really good championship core is able to win with nothing more than a serviceable PG, and this is definitely not our case.

      if you put Avery Johnson, 2010 Kidd, Barea, Fisher or Jason Williams on our team, are we a championship team?

      definitely not.

    78. xduckshoex

      Owen:
      I bet we win more than 20 games with Brewer. Honestly, I would take Brewer and 15 million in cap space in a flash. R. Brewer is a cheap player who grades out well on a lot of different metrics

      …none of which account for usage, which means none of them recognize the fact that he is virtually useless with the ball in his hands or with the defense paying attention to him.

    79. xduckshoex

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://bkref.com/tiny/A1M9r

      This is the kind of thing that leads to my frustration. Seriously? You think WS48 is so far off that Boozer is somehow worse than Amar’e?

      Really? Your idea of an honest argument is to use the worst month or so of basketball Amare has ever played to represent what he is capable of as a player?

      When you increase the sample size to one that actually matters and use each players career to date Amare clearly comes out ahead.

    80. Bruno Almeida

      xduckshoex: Really?Your idea of an honest argument is to use the worst month or so of basketball Amare has ever played to represent what he is capable of as a player?

      When you increase the sample size to one that actually matters and use each players career to date Amare clearly comes out ahead.

      clearly? are you sure about that?

      Amare’s career WS48 is .174, Boozer’s is .160… how’s that so much better?

      the fact is, right now, Boozer is a better player, and that’s what THCJ meant… in fact, if you consider LAST season, Boozer was also better.

    81. Owen

      Watching the Nuggets. I love the way they play ball. So much fun to watch real team basketball.

      I don’t think Amare or Melo are tier two stars. Tier 3 if that. Tier two is guys like Westbrook, Deron, Gasol, etc…..

      And I don’t think Amare has been better in his career than Bboozer, maybe his peak but overall Boozer has been pretty solid….

    82. Bruno Almeida

      by the way, Love, a clear 2nd tier star (and better than both Amare and Boozer) is killing the Lakers right now… they’ll hang Kahn in 3 years if he leaves, that’s for sure.

    83. xduckshoex

      Bruno Almeida: clearly? are you sure about that?

      Amare’s career WS48 is .174, Boozer’s is .160… how’s that so much better?

      the fact is, right now, Boozer is a better player, and that’s what THCJ meant… in fact, if you consider LAST season, Boozer was also better.

      Well if you’re going to hang your hat on that metric, then yes Amare is clearly better.

      But regardless, the point is that it was a shady way to make that comparison.

    84. Eternal OptiKnist

      Amare proved last year that he has the ability to lead and make those around him better. I don’t disagree that he’s just a notch below the Lebrons, Wades, Howards (I think its a function of his knee issues), but he proved to have the ability to carry a team in NY. THAT is the type of ability that does not show up in the stat sheet…the ‘it’ factor. Melo is currently the more talented of the two, but he’s not a team guy. You can see he looks down on his ‘lesser’ teammates. He does not inspire confidence in people. That’s why he does not make people better. A small part of me feels like Denver was pumping his value to dump him for big return. George Karl seems to jizz in his pants everytime he talks about post-Melo life…similar reaction from players on the team. You guys really need to stop trashing Amare.

      Oh and by the way, you cannot cound Baron Davis as part of a “core”, he’s a half-season band aid which may not have any stickiness left. The team spent 2 weeks talking about his return and now radio silence…something is amiss with him.

      Amare, Melo and Chandler are our guys for the next few years…none of em is going anywhere. I just hope Melo continues to be shamed into being a team guy who treats his teamates with respect as opposed to his underlings…we gain some confidence and tuen this thing around. Or tank the season and get back next year’s pick :)

    85. Owen

      Xduck – Brewer played 2600 minutes and posted a usage rate of 19% for the Jazz in a season they won 48 games. The guy has been very effective pretty much every year in his career, a very solid, above average rotation player. Put him next to Stat, who is all about usage, and he’d probably thrive….

      Love might be creeping up on Tier 1, defense is suspect…

    86. Bruno Almeida

      xduckshoex: Well if you’re going to hang your hat on that metric, then yes Amare is clearly better.

      But regardless, the point is that it was a shady way to make that comparison.

      I was just showing that the career numbers aren’t that far apart, and for the last 2 years Boozer has been the better player (even on a bad season for his own standards last year).

    87. Eternal OptiKnist

      Can anyone hear clarify a CBA question? I remember during negotiations there was talk of a clause where you can waive a player and although his contract stays on your books and you owe him 100% salary, there is a formula used to spread the cap hit over multiple years so a contract that goes bad doesn’t kill you or prevent you from rebuilding (a la Alan Houston). Did that make it into the CBA? If it did, i imagine it would only be usable on a player under contract before the new CBA took effect (like amnesty). The reason i ask is because while all of you are talking about trading Amare for an ’84 Hyundai Excel, this clause would allow us to hold onto him…a very talented player (yes, he is talented, assholes) and proven leader/chemistry guy then waive him in year 3 or 4 if his body does in fact, break down. I can’t see how that isn’t the best way to handle him.

    88. Will the Thrill

      HAHAHA Based on a 20 game span, with TD, Shumpert at PG. Everyone knows that Amare’s productivity has almost EVERYTHING to do with the point guard’s ability to run the pick and roll. His entire offensive game relies on a serviceable, passing point guard (not elite, see Raymond Felton). So yes, if you meant who is worse at this exact moment in time, not thinking about the past or the future, Boozer is better than Amare.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://bkref.com/tiny/A1M9r

      This is the kind of thing that leads to my frustration. Seriously? You think WS48 is so far off that Boozer is somehow worse than Amar’e?

    89. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://bkref.com/tiny/A1M9rThis is the kind of thing that leads to my frustration. Seriously? You think WS48 is so far off that Boozer is somehow worse than Amar’e?

      Historically Amare has has a higher WS48 than Boozer. He topped .200 in 3 different years Boozer never has, even though both played with elite PGs for most of their careers. I would rather have Amare but considering their contracts, Boozer might be the better value. I essentially agree with @93 but would conceed that they are pretty close.

      BTW, by your logic Tyson Chandler is WAY better than Joakim Noah and just as valuable as Derrick Rose.

    90. ruruland

      Owen: I bet we win more than 20 games with Brewer. Honestly, I would take Brewer and 15 million in cap space in a flash. R. Brewer is a cheap player who grades out well on a lot of different metrics. Frankly, we might improve by making that swap given how unbalanced our team is right now. Sounds crazy I know…I mean, honestly, I’d take Andre Miller rather than Melo right now. (I’d take his career numbers over Melo’s too.)

      Dear god

    91. ruruland

      Owen: Watching the Nuggets. I love the way they play ball. So much fun to watch real team basketball. I don’t think Amare or Melo are tier two stars. Tier 3 if that. Tier two is guys like Westbrook, Deron, Gasol, etc…..And I don’t think Amare has been better in his career than Bboozer, maybe his peak but overall Boozer has been pretty solid….

      Deron has been amazing in NJ, even with much worse teammates then Melo has had in NY this year. Same with Westbrook, consistently outclasses in Melo in every advanced metric.

      You’re right, tier 3, if that.

    92. Z-man

      Anybody notice that David Lee’s stats have declined, including FT%? Trevor Ariza has never been the same since he left LA either.

    93. ROUGH

      ruruland: Deron has been amazing in NJ, even with much worse teammates then Melo has had in NY this year. Same with Westbrook, consistently outclasses in Melo in every advanced metric.

      You’re right, tier 3, if that.

      Yep, Mello, Stat, and Chandler are 2nd tier players, all of them overpaid, esp. the first two. The Magic are now in disarray. Offer them Stat and Chandler for the Superman; involve a couple of other teams, if necessary. Howard, Melo, a decent point guard (Baron even without big expectations), plus a couple of other pieces in the trade, THAT may be a contender team. The Zen master will definitely be willing to “close the circle” in case MD does not turn things around.

      Ooops, I think I fell asleep on the laptop again.

    94. RastaPappa

      Does MDA want to be in Knicks anymore??? He looks so tired and fu**ed up. It’s not PG we need, we need the leader for this team. And that’s not Melo, sorry! Maybe Fruit Ninja or Zen Master is da man who can make this team better. These Knicks boys need the coach who says STFU and play!

    95. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Anybody notice that David Lee’s stats have declined, including FT%? Trevor Ariza has never been the same since he left LA either.

      The free throw drop is quite odd. Otherwise, he’s having a decent enough year. That Golden State offense, though, is such dogshit. They’re practically more dysfunctional on offense than the Knicks!

    96. joe

      as i said before and i will say it again its all about time…………ok so b-diddy comes back its gonna take him time to learn the system again……….TIME……………..give we give lin and jordan mintues its going to take TIME to have them learn nba style play………………TIME amare did not work out all summer he is trying to condition himself and even if we do trade him to philly who ever we get in return its going to take TIME for them to learn the offense under MDA……….TIME……………….guys im pissed to but i know for a fact we need TIME now do we need a point guard YES we sure as hell do, do we need to hustle more we damn sure do and that can happen instantly…………but with all our other issues i know for a fact its going to take…………………TIME

    97. Nick C.

      No offense but f’ that I’m tired of hearing that they need time BS. I’ve been hearing that excuse since Isaih’s days. Last years start at least showed improvement throughout the 3-8 beginning specifically with the PnR. This team has showed no signs of being any better or more simpatico with each other over the course of the season to date and its already nearly 1/3 over.

    98. Bruno Almeida

      Nick C.:
      No offense but f’ that I’m tired of hearing that they need time BS. I’ve been hearing that excuse since Isaih’s days.Last years start at least showed improvement throughout the 3-8 beginning specifically with the PnR.This team has showed no signs of being any better or more simpatico with each other over the course of the season to date and its already nearly 1/3 over.

      this.

      I’m sick and tired of waiting for the next piece, it’s like watching the Mets from the last 5 years again and again…

      we’re waiting for Lebron, then waiting for Carmelo, waiting for Baron Davis, next year we’ll wait for Steve Nash… it’s sickening.

      we pay TWO max contracts and a 3rd pretty big one, that alone should warrant AT LEAST a winning season and a decent playoff spot, but our 2 stars always depend on something else…

      I’d love to see an example of another team that pays 2 max contracts and is so amazingly bad to watch.

    99. Bruno Almeida

      even the Washington freaking Wizards when they overpaid Arenas, Butler and Jamison, at least they were a lock to go to the playoffs.

    100. Z

      joe:
      I know for a fact its going to take…………………TIME

      I think that trading all of your youth for a superstar is a “win now” move. What, you’re then going to wait until all the players you traded away are superstars too before you start winning?!

      The FO lost the luxury of time 11 1/2 months ago. Before the Gallinari trade the fans were willing to commit to the pains of having a young roster grow.

      But when you trade away your youth, your cap space, and your trade assets, don’t then come to us and ask for time.

      This is NY, remember… We refuse to rebuild.

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