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Monday, October 20, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Feb 12 2012)

  • [New York Newsday] Lin scores 20 as Knicks rally for 100-98 win (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:36:34 EST)
    Jeremy Lin wasn't nearly as spectacular as he has been during his improbable run of captivating basketball. But his run of helping the Knicks to wins didn't end.

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks execute key play perfectly (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:07:15 EST)
    MINNEAPOLIS — This was a case of practice making perfect.

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Lin joins Tollivers ‘band’ (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:15:46 -0500)
    MINNEAPOLIS â?? Jeremy Lin and Timberwolves forward Anthony Tolliver share a bond â?? and a band.
    Lin is one of roughly 20-30 NBA players who have worn wristbands made by Active Faith, a company Tolliver holds an ownership stake in. Knicks teammate Landry Fields also wears the wristband.
    “It became something that…

  • [New York Post] Jeremy’s free throw leads to fifth straight victory for Knicks (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:29:07 -0500)
    MINNEAPOLIS — The kid can’t lose.
    The “Linderella” story grew again as Jeremy Lin sank a game-winning free throw with 4.9 seconds left that capped a wild Knicks comeback and an improbable 100-98 stunner over the Timberwolves at the Target Center. The win extended the Knicks’ “Linning streak…

  • [New York Post] Melo about to enter Dragon’s lair (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:58:34 -0500)
    We are, as Kevin Costner, as Jim Garrison, says in “JFK,â? through the looking glass, people. White is black. Up is down. Upside-down is rightside up. Digital is analog. Fire is ice. Day is night.
    Jeremy Lin is an NBA phenomenon.
    More, he is a pop culture marvel. A reporter…

  • [New York Post] Emotional Amar’e eulogizes big brother (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:17:21 -0500)
    LAKE WALES, Fla. â?? In the end, the pain was too much to bear. Amar’e Stoudemire rarely shows emotion on the basketball court, and those close to him say had not cried since he was 12, when his father died. But Stoudemire could not hold back any longer.
    As he…

  • [New York Post] Phenom nearly found himself out of NBA (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:15:46 -0500)
    MINNEAPOLIS â?? Jeremy Lin would not have had a chance to save the Knicks’ season and coach Mike D’Antoni’s job and become a global phenomenon if rookie Iman Shumpert had not sprained his knee on Christmas Day.
    Lin would not have become “Linderella” had Baron Davis not sustained another…

  • [New York Post] Rubio: Lin gets the point (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:15:46 -0500)
    MINNEAPOLIS â?? One entered the season with the weight of years of hype and anticipation of his arrival. The other could have walked down the street and gone unnoticed as recently as two weeks ago.
    Last night, point guards Ricky Rubio and Jeremy Lin went head-to-head for the first time, with…

  • [New York Post] Yao tried to bring Jeremy to Shanghai (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:35:45 -0500)
    MINNEAPOLIS â?? Yao Ming attempted to sign Knicks point guard sensation Jeremy Lin to play for his Shanghai Sharks during the NBA lockout, but was unsuccessful, two league sources told The Post.Lin, who helped the Knicks beat the Timberwolves last night, 100-98, has had a close bond with Yao since…

  • [New York Daily News] For the Lin! J-Lin drops 20, sinks late FT in ‘W’ (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:26:51 GMT)
    Lin’s worst game as since becoming a starter still turned out to be a thing of beauty as he capped the Knicks comeback by making one free throw with 4.9 seconds left as the Knicks rallied to defeat the Minnesota Timberwolves 100-98 for their fifth straight win.

  • [New York Daily News] Lupica: The power of Lin (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:11:42 GMT)
    All Jeremy Lin has done, in a week and a day, is save the Knicks’ season for now, maybe save Mike D’Antoni’s job, and make Knicks fans feel genuinely happy for the first time in a long time.

  • [New York Daily News] Linpossible to ignore Melo’s inevitable return (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:01:40 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony has yet to prove that he can successfully co-exist with Amar’e Stoudemire. Now, Melo has to prove he can co-exist with Jeremy Lin.

  • [New York Daily News] Lin on Yao: ‘He’s obviously a role model and a big brother’ (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:10:54 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin calls Yao Ming a friend as well as a “role modelâ? and the former Houston Rockets center is someone Lin can learn from in terms of how to deal with all the attention, locally and internationally, that comes with instant fame.

  • [New York Daily News] The true Hollywood story of the Knick Linsation (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:19:06 GMT)
    One evening in June of 2006, Knicks guard Jeremy Lin, then a recent high school graduate headed to Harvard, played for coach Mike Baldwin’s South Bay Spartans inside Kezar Pavilion, a gym on the southeast corner of San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 100, Timberwolves 98: Lin LIfts Knicks past Timberwolves (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:17:26 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin struggled to his fifth consecutive 20-point game on 8-for-24 shooting, but made the second of two foul shots for the go-ahead point with 4.9 seconds to play.

  • [New York Times] On Basketball: Knicks’ Jeremy Lin Keeps His Cool as Heads Spin Around Him (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:17:19 GMT)
    Stories like Jeremy Lin’s rarely happen in big-money professional sports, and especially with a franchise like the Knicks.

  • [New York Times] The Knicks’ Jeremy Lin — Faith, Pride and Points (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:40:05 GMT)
    The recent success of the Knicks’ guard Jeremy Lin has special meaning to Asian-American Christians.

  • [New York Times] Amar’e Stoudemire Mourns His ‘Guardian Angel’ (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:10:15 GMT)
    Hazell Stoudemire, the brother of the Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire, was buried Saturday in Lake Wales, Fla.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: 76ers Dispatch Depleted Cavaliers (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:20:05 GMT)
    Six Philadelphia players scored in double figures as the 76ers rolled past the Cavaliers, who were playing without two starters because of injuries.

  • [New York Times] Holiday Helps 76ers Cruise Past Injury-Hit Cavaliers (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:04:32 GMT)
    An evenly balanced offense helped the Atlantic Division-leading Philadelphia 76ers easily defeat the under-manned Cleveland Cavaliers 99-84 on Saturday.

  • [New York Times] Dudley Leads Suns Past Kings 98-84 (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:57:58 GMT)
    Jared Dudley had 20 points and 10 rebounds for the Phoenix Suns, who never trailed in defeating the Sacramento Kings 98-84 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Nowitzki, Terry Lead Mavs Over Blazers in 2OT (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:07:03 GMT)
    Dirk Nowitzki scored 20 points, Jason Terry added 19, and the Dallas Mavericks held on for a 97-94 double-overtime victory over the Portland Trail Blazers on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Richardson Hits Nine 3s, Magic Top Bucks 99-94 (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:46:23 GMT)
    Jason Richardson scored 28 of his season-high 31 points in the second half and made nine 3-pointers to lead the Orlando Magic to a 99-94 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Neal Leads Spurs to Easy 103-89 Win Over Nets (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:48:32 GMT)
    Gary Neal scored 18 points, and Tim Duncan recorded his ninth double-double of the season with 13 points and 10 rebounds as the San Antonio Spurs won their seventh in the row with a 103-89 victory over the New Jersey Nets.

  • [New York Times] Lin, Knicks Rally for 5th Straight, Beat Wolves (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:37:19 GMT)
    In his first three starts, Jeremy Lin’s out-of-nowhere emergence all but saved the New York Knicks’ season.

  • [New York Times] Balanced 76ers Cruise Past Under-Manned Cavaliers (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:25:33 GMT)
    The well balanced Philadelphia 76ers easily defeated the under-manned Cleveland Cavaliers 99-84 on Saturday.

  • [New York Times] Holiday Leads 76ers Past Short-Handed Cavs 99-84 (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:54:40 GMT)
    Jrue Holiday scored 20 points to lead six Philadelphia players in double figures as the 76ers rolled to a 99-84 win over the short-handed Cleveland Cavaliers on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Upend Pacers 113-109 (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:24:33 GMT)
    Ty Lawson scored 27 points to lead the Denver Nuggets to a 113-109 win over the Indiana Pacers on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Griffin, Paul Lead Clippers Over Bobcats 111-86 (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:03:35 GMT)
    Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan all had double-doubles after three quarters as the Los Angeles Clippers handed the dreadful Charlotte Bobcats yet another lopsided loss, 111-86 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Lin Launches NBA ‘Linsanity’ With Meteoric Rise With Knicks (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:23:32 GMT)
    His university classmates may be thriving in law school, at brokerage houses and on the early rungs up the corporate ladder, but Jeremy Lin is blazing a trail as the sudden savior of the New York Knicks.

  • [New York Times] #trendingnyc: Jeremy Lin’s Rise, Charted in Tweets (Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:40:06 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin, the Harvard-educated, undrafted point guard for the New York Knicks, ruled Twitter from the moment he wandered onto the court in a game against the Nets.

  • 168 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Feb 12 2012)

    1. taggart4800

      Lin’s numbers are a little inflated because of the minutes he is playing, however upon the return of other players I think he only become more efficient, not less effective. NY Daily News article about Melo return strikes me as odd, I see value in Melo’s iso play when it facilitates others to rest. This condensed season is hard on everybody and as long as they can find a balance between his iso and fitting into the system than I think we a. become very versatile and b. sustainable. There are going to be games where we need Melo to bully us out of trouble and that shouldn’t be ignored but only on nights where the team is struggling. Melo would have to possess the audacity of Kobe if he were to return having seen the reserves go on a 5 game win streak, which produced one of the great sporting stories, and demand that he had 30 shots a game and was one of the primary ball handers. I think Melo’s problem is that, Kobe is one of his peers whom he has every right to respect and Kobe and like minded others have told him in the past he has to play a certain way. I fully appreciate how hard it is to shake that and effectively say to those people, your wrong.
      P&R run through Lin, Chandler and STAT is going to be scary good.
      When Baron returns for the playoffs we will be a tiresome team to play in a seven game series.
      Reasons for a little more optimism i feel.

    2. Bruno Almeida

      I loved the way we won last night, maybe even more than the last few games… it was the second game of a back-to-back, after a very emotional exhausting game against the Lakers, on a packed arena against a pretty good and very hungry team…

      the fact that Lin struggled so much in the 2nd half and yet we won shows that this team is, indeed, a MUCH different team compared to the one we’ve been watching so far.

      I’m salivating at the fact that now Lin will get some rest and he’ll get Amare back… I just wished D’Antoni gave at least some of Walker’s minutes to Balkman, but that’s not likely.

    3. DRed

      At least Walker’s minutes will be going to Melo soon. We can argue all year long about how good Melo really is, but I think we can all agree that he’s better than Billy Walker.

      Love that Lin had 6 boards last night. It was an ugly win, but we were on the road, got outrebounded, badly outshot from the FT line and still managed to win. Can’t complain about that.

    4. d-mar

      You know, the way it’s working out with STAT coming back this week and Melo probably next is actually ideal. Incorporate one star into the new Lin-led offense and then the other, with some practices in between. Plus, we’re playing some pretty weak teams this week, so no reason to rush Melo back.

      Lin, Fields, STAT, Melo, Chandler – the possibilities on offense boggle the mind. D’Antoni will be like a coach in a candy store.

    5. hoolahoop

      To continue the rosy picture, considering the knicks win the next three games against weak teams, they’ll be facing Dallas on an eight game winning streak with the full team intact.

    6. hoolahoop

      . . . considering the streak, they’ll be red hot and beat Dallas, then the Nets and riding a ten game win streak roll right over Atlanta. Then Miami. If they win that game we can just crown ourselves champions.

    7. Ted Nelson

      Was it you Mike who was touting Lin as a good 2nd round target for the Knicks? Great eye if so.

      I think Amare will fit right in. Give him and Chandler ~35 MPG each with 22 overlapping. Lin-Amare P-and-R should make Lin a lot more effective.

      Melo, though… I’m skeptical. Guy just crushes the offensive flow. I pretty much stopped following the Knicks once he was acquired. Hopefully he can check his ego to fit into the offense, but I doubt it.

      DRed: I think we can all agree that he’s better than Billy Walker.

      In a vacuum, sure. On the Knicks team, though, I don’t know. Walker hasn’t shot particularly well this season, but his 3 point shooting can be just what the Knicks need to space the floor for Lin, Amare, and Chandler. Carmelo scores a lot of points, but doing it at a .504 TS% is hurting the team more than it’s helping. If your rotation includes Melo, Stat, Chandler, Lin, Shumpert, Fields, Jeffries, Baron Davis… there’s not much room for shooters. I’d guess Jeffries loses some time to Novak and/or Harrellson and maybe TD gets it together or Walker stays in, but you’re still looking at maybe two shooters in your rotation and a whole lot of guys who need to be inside the arc to score.

      I’ll take Melo over Walker, but in a perfect world I’d rather just have Danilo Gallinari back and no Melo. Melo is overpaid and doesn’t really fit into this offensive scheme. I hope he can adjust, I just doubt he will. I sort of figured that D’Antoni had to go from a roster with Chandler-Amare-Melo in the front-court… but with Lin-sanity going on I’d love to see D’Antoni stay and Melo go.

    8. DRed

      I meant to add that, unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. We have to go to war with the Melo that we have. He’s a better rebounder and passer than Walker. Hopefully the presence of Lin would allow Melo to stop taking so many stupid contested shots and allow him to up his TS. I’m not exactly hopeful, but I think that’s basically what we have to root for.

    9. d-mar

      Wow, I thought I’d seen it all with the Melo bashing, but now we’re comparing him to Billy freakin’ Walker? Amazing.

    10. Frank

      d-mar:
      Wow, I thought I’d seen it all with the Melo bashing, but now we’re comparing him to Billy freakin’ Walker? Amazing.

      I’m all-Lin on J-Lin but even so – if Melo had a performance like Lin did last night, this whole board would be in an uproar about how bad he shot, hero-ball, etc. Lin had a great first half but otherwise, we should hand the game balls to Shumpert, who I thought was outstanding, Novak, and Fields.

      I for one think Melo will be just fine in this offense – he’s not dumb, he sees what’s going on and how much better the offense is with Lin dominating the dribbling. I think we’ll see SSOL for the first 7 seconds of the clock, then Lin running PNR with multiple people for the next 10 sec, then Melo-ball if the 1st 17 seconds go badly. And I think that is totally fine.

      Any bets on Amare’s stats going forward? I’ll take a stab– 54% FG%, TS 58%, 24 points/36. STAT back in action.

    11. Ted Nelson

      DRed: Hopefully the presence of Lin would allow Melo to stop taking so many stupid contested shots and allow him to up his TS.

      I hope so too… but Melo has been in the league a long time and still does it. I think that they’ll figure it out to the point of being over .500 and making the playoffs. I just think that there’s diminishing returns when 4 of your top 5 is Amare, Chandler, Melo, and Lin/Davis/Shumpert.

      d-mar: now we’re comparing him to Billy freakin’ Walker? Amazing.

      We’re comparing his role on the team to Walker’s. When you’ve got two big-men who are very efficient inside (one of whom has no business with the ball out the paint and one of whom has a mid-range game but is one of the best finishers in history) and none of your PGs can hit the 3 consistently (maybe TD who isn’t really a PG and maybe Bibby who is pretty washed up)… having some shooters and slasher on the wing might be more valuable than a guy like Melo who scores inside the arc as medium-efficiency by dominating the ball in iso.
      At this best Walker is a ridiculously efficient scorer.

      Frank: he’s not dumb, he sees what’s going on and how much better the offense is

      I don’t think he’s dumb, I just think he doesn’t have the skill-set to fit it. He’s not a good outside shooter. He’s not particularly good moving off the ball. His skill is creating with the ball in his hand in isolation. He’s one of the best in the NBA at that. I just think you put shooters and defenders around that. Like Denver did or like the Lakers have around Kobe. I don’t think P-N-R with three guys who can’t shoot much + iso with Melo is an efficient offense. Hope I’m wrong. I do…

    12. Ted Nelson

      Basically… if Amare, Lin, Chandler, and maybe Fields, Walker, Harrellson, Novak, TD… are more efficient scorers than Melo is, it hurts the team for Melo to take shots away from those guys.

      His iso-scoring is less efficient than pretty much everyone in serious rotation consideration (i.e. not Jordan and Balkman) besides Jeffries, Baron, Shumpert, probably Bibby at this point, and unfortunately maybe TD and Walker if they can’t get it back together. Hopefully he can adjust to a new offense to take better shots, I just think it’s dubious given his skill set and career history.

    13. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

      If you have to make a mental effort to figure out how your team’s two max players are going to work into this newly found winning model, you gave max money to the wrong guys. Plain and simple.

      We owe $47M to Amar’e and Melo in 2014-15. Absolutely ridiculous.

    14. Frank

      Ted Nelson:
      I don’t think he’s dumb, I just think he doesn’t have the skill-set to fit it. He’s not a good outside shooter. He’s not particularly good moving off the ball. His skill is creating with the ball in his hand in isolation. He’s one of the best in the NBA at that. I just think you put shooters and defenders around that. Like Denver did or like the Lakers have around Kobe. I don’t think P-N-R with three guys who can’t shoot much + iso with Melo is an efficient offense. Hope I’m wrong. I do…

      He’s actually not that bad a shooter — according to Synergy, in 2010-11 with the Nuggets he averaged 1.23 PPP on spot up shots, or 19th in the league. As a PNR roll man (he only had 21 of these) he averaged 1.29 PPP. He doesn’t score too much on cuts but he still used 6.1% of his possessions on cuts and scored them at 1.42 PPP (26th in the league). He wasn’t quite as strong with the Knicks last year but still managed a respectable 1.11 PPP on spot-ups and was excellent at 1.4 PPP on cuts.

      It all sort of comes down to how he’s going to be used. There is so much more motion in the offense the way it is run now, so I think he will get the ball with guys running out at him – perfect for drive-bys if they run-out too hard, and good for spot-ups if they are lazy too.

      Well — we’ll see pretty soon I guess.

    15. JK47

      Right now some absurdly high percentage of Melo’s shot attempts have come in isolation. Some of this is because that is just Melo’s style, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that the team had a complete lack of dribble penetration before the emergence of Lin. No dribble penetration = no easy shots. Melo was playing point forward– by definition he had the ball in his hands all the time. When the team is back at full strength, the ball is going to be in Lin’s hands and thanks to his dribble penetration there will be a lot more open looks for everybody.

    16. EB

      Ted Nelson: Basically… if Amare, Lin, Chandler, and maybe Fields, Walker, Harrellson, Novak, TD… are more efficient scorers than Melo is, it hurts the team for Melo to take shots away from those guys.

      I think we should remember that before racking up injuries like lin has racked up fans Carmelo was having an outstanding season, shooting outstandingly from everywhere. I know sample size is an issue but melo has never been worse than a league average shooter, and the time he spends while lin is out will help the offense a great deal.

      Furthermore, Dantoni has been riding Lin into the ground, with melo back lin can stay on the bench longer and we wont have to see lin lose his legs like he did against the twolves. Its along season and without rest lin is going to hit the wall and hit it hard.

    17. Z-man

      Wow, Lin-sanity has even brought Ted Nelson out of hibernation. That’s powerful stuff.

      I love all the speculation about how/whether Melo is good enough to fit in with our new savior. Come on, everybody knows that Melo cares nothing about winning and just wants to get his. He’s already ruined TD and Bibby, and will do the same to Lin. If only he were out for the year, we might go undefeated and sweep our way to a title.

    18. PC

      Stat I saw today: Knicks are averaging 11 more pts per game with Lin and 11 more points per game in the paint. All eleven are coming in the paint.

      Melo coming back means a little less of that. but. I don’t think Melo will hurt us. He only dominated the ball so much because he cdnt bear the thought of giving the ball back to Douglas to run his teams offense. I don’t blame him for jocking in the early part of the year. Melo has to be seeing these wide open looks everyone is getting and just salivating thinking of actually shooting open shots.

      I can’t stand watching Toney Douglas play basketball and for that and that alone, I love Jeremy Lin.

    19. PC

      It all sort of comes down to how he’s going to be used.There is so much more motion in the offense the way it is run now, so I think he will get the ball with guys running out at him – perfect for drive-bys if they run-out too hard, and good for spot-ups if they are lazy too.

      So true. I can’t wait.

    20. cgreene

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

      If you have to make a mental effort to figure out how your team’s two max players are going to work into this newly found winning model, you gave max money to the wrong guys. Plain and simple.

      We owe $47M to Amar’e and Melo in 2014-15. Absolutely ridiculous.

      I think this misses the point a bit actually. You essentially have 2 bloated salaries in Melo and Stat and a slightly under priced 3rd major salary in TC (based in his performance so far this year he’d be close to a max $ player if he was an FA). Then you have some incredibly efficient deals with Landry, Lin, Shumpert, Harrelson, Jeffries, Baron etc. Then you have the opportunity to spend the full mid level and mini mid level (some of which may be eaten by Lin if he’s worth it) next year. You have to pay Landry but his max first year raise is something like 150% of his current salary so teams can’t just open up the bidding on him and Lin and we have both players’ bird rights. So the Knicks are not in a particularly bad salary situation for a team that is willing to go deep in luxury tax payments for next year. Who the hell cares about 2014-2015 right now? We have a team now that is top 10 in defense and vastly improving its offense. When the if-Melo-can-fit question gets answered in the next few weeks we may have an incredibly deep and good team all of a sudden with the ability to add a piece or 2 next year.

    21. Brian Cronin

      I agree, cgreene, depending on whether the Knicks are willing to go deep into luxury tax territory. I’m not saying that they’re not, but it is true that the penalties for being over the luxury tax are extremely draconian, so I don’t know if even Mr. Money Bags James Dolan will be willing to commit to being so deep into the luxury tax, especially as presumably the luxury tax levels will be going down in the next three years (hopefully the league does so well that it doesn’t happen and the cap remains near $58 million with the luxury tax remaining at $70 million). If the cap goes down, Melo and Amar’e’s salaries will become even more of an albatross than they already are.

      Speaking of the Knicks’ future cap space, while the best case scenario is what you describe about Fields and Lin both getting just small raises for next season, do you think either of them will have a market out there? Lin, if he keeps this up, obviously will, but what about Fields? If Fields plays the way he has post -OT Denver loss (basically, since he and Melo began clicking and then Lin came in to install the offense Fields thrives in), do you think there will be teams willing to give him the MLE?

    22. Ted Nelson

      Frank: He’s actually not that bad a shooter

      Interesting. I still doubt he can make that his game. Right now it seems like a marginal part of his game. I agree that it’s a whole lot about shot selection with him… but as an 8 year NBA vet what are the chances he suddenly changes his stripes and radically alters his game?

      I think he can be in the .550 TS% range he’s usually in… I just think he will take a lot of shots away from guys who would score more efficiently. It’s not a death sentence for the Knicks and I think they can make the playoffs and be over .500. The guard play really needed to improve early in the season. I just think they might be better with a “lesser player” who has different strengths than Melo. I’m usually about overall production more than fit, I just think a lock-down perimeter defender who can hit the 3 might be a better fit… sort of a Pietrus, Bell, Bowen mold guy. I guess that does sort of speak to production… Melo takes away value with his shot selection and ball-hogging.

      If Lin can sustain something close to this I think the Knicks have more efficient volume scorers than Melo is Lin and Amare. They also have potentially efficient low-volume scorers in guys like Chandler, Walker, TD, Harrellson, Novak… Giving lots of shots to a medium-efficiency guy who is ok on defense might not be ideal. Boosting the defense while keeping the offense pretty even might be the ideal way to go. Or just saving the money to use elsewhere and going with a cheaper comparable player whose skills might fit a little better… someone like Danilo.

      Also… the flow is pretty decent without Melo (though Lin is less than ideal as a distributor). A big problem to the flow is… Melo himself. Like you say, we’ll have to see.

    23. Ted Nelson

      JK47: No dribble penetration = no easy shots. Melo was playing point forward– by definition he had the ball in his hands all the time.

      I think this is true… but I don’t think Melo’s role his whole career has been much different. I totally agree that the G play was awful and the Knicks should benefit if Lin (and/or Baron) is a reliable G. I just don’t know that Melo will suddenly change completely. He’s always been an iso guy who takes a whole lot of shots, some of them very questionable, and scores at a medium-efficiency.

      EB: melo has never been worse than a league average shooter

      Yeah, I don’t think he’s awful. I just don’t think he’s worth what he’s paid, nor do I think he’s a better guy to be taking shots than Amare, maybe Lin if this is sustainable, and some of the low-volume high-efficiency “role players.” League average isn’t bad… but if everyone else on your team is well above league average it is… especially when Melo’s defensive contribution is what I’d call “inconsistent” and he’s a good but not great passer.

      cgreene: So the Knicks are not in a particularly bad salary situation for a team that is willing to go deep in luxury tax payments for next year.

      I don’t think it’s awful… but the issue is whether it could be better. They could have a really good team and be getting more out of the $20 mill they’re paying Melo. I think he’s overpaid period, but especially on a team where he doesn’t look like a very good fit.

      Brian Cronin: do you think either of them will have a market out…

    24. JK47

      I think it’s WAY premature to assert that Lin can be a more efficient volume scorer than Melo. Let’s let the guy cool down from his (L)insane, unsustainable hot streak before we start asking the dude to become the #2 scoring option on the team. I envision Lin as a pass-first point guard who can also score, not as a guy who is going to jack up 20+ shots per game.

    25. Gamecockerbocker

      Interesting tweet from Melo. “@carmeloanthony: I didn’t realize that. Thanx4update ‘@tomtomphilly: Wonder if @carmeloanthony knows or cares how terrified #Knicks fans are about his return'”

    26. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      “…what are the chances he suddenly changes his stripes and radically alters his game?”

      This is the radically condensed thesis of my body of posts on this site.

    27. Brian Cronin

      By the way, I am pleased that yesterday we did give Lin some shit for playing hero ball in the second half (plus the end of the first half). It would be quite weak if we did not point it out after giving Melo so much guff over his hero ball ways. I like that we can be consistent with our critiques here.

    28. art vandelay

      This anti-Melo chatter kind of reminds me of all the anti-Ewing bashing towards the end of his career, and how we were so much better without him….while we may have matched up better with Indiana in 99 without him in ECF, imagine if we would have had him in the Finals against Robinson/Duncan of San Antonio…in other words, at times we may play better as a team without Melo, but in the end we will need him if we are going to go anywhere in the playoffs when ball movement is not as easy to come by and creative one-on-one scoring is at a premium at times.

    29. nicos

      Brian Cronin:
      If Fields plays the way he has post -OT Denver loss (basically, since he and Melo began clicking and then Lin came in to install the offense Fields thrives in), do you think there will be teams willing to give him the MLE?

      Fields has had 2 good games and three bad ones in the “Lin era” and hit a grand total of one shot outside of 10 feet in those five games. He hasn’t hit a three since that airball in Boston. Once Melo returns the floor space is going to shrink to some extent and it’s doubtful Fields is going to get 8 shots at the rim like he did last night. He’s shooting guard who can’t shoot (this season anyway) and struggles mightily on the defensive end, especially getting through screens. On a team with enough outside shooting from the other positions to spread the floor he might be worth the MLE- he’d actually be a good fit in Denver- but unless he returns he gets back to hitting at least a little from the outside it’s unlikely he’ll generate enough numbers for a team to offer him the MLE.

    30. PC

      The last 5 minutes of playoff games come to a screeching halt. Melo will be invaluable during those close games.

    31. JK47

      This is the first time since the Melo trade that this team will be able to run a true version of SSOL with a PG who is actually proficient at the pick and roll. I don’t know exactly how we were supposed to be running some sort of beautiful ball-motion offense with two shooting guards who can’t shoot and a completely washed up Mike Bibby masquerading as our point guards. Lin is a game-changer.

      We now have a true pick-and-roll PG, a SG who is deft at cutting to the basket, a SF who is a good mid-range shooter and who can take the ball to the rim and draw fouls, a PF who is one of the most proficient pick-and-roll weapons in NBA history and a C who is a fantastic dive man and who happens to be sporting a .736 TS%. This might just work. We could use some guards who can shoot the 3 though.

    32. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      PC:
      The last 5 minutes of playoff games come to a screeching halt. Melo will be invaluable during those close games.

      I’d like to see some numbers that show how ISOs are somehow more effective at the end of games than at any other time.

    33. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      art vandelay:
      This anti-Melo chatter kind of reminds me of all the anti-Ewing bashing towards the end of his career, and how we were so much better without him….while we may have matched up better with Indiana in 99 without him in ECF, imagine if we would have had him in the Finals against Robinson/Duncan of San Antonio…in other words, at times we may play better as a team without Melo, but in the end we will need him if we are going to go anywhere in the playoffs when ball movement is not as easy to come by and creative one-on-one scoring is at a premium at times.

      We wouldn’t have been in the Finals if we had had Ewing. That’s the point.

    34. Frank

      Right now J-Lin’s stats are basically 24p/8a/4.5reb/17FGA per 36 on a usage of 31.5. I think ideally he ends up more like 14p/12a/4reb/10FGA per 36 (and play 34 min/game rather than 39) – I really think he can average 11-12 assists in this offense considering Jefferies alone probably blows 2 assists per game, and Walker’s brickfests probably lead to 2 more.

      Re: Carmelo – looking back through his years in Denver, on average about 40-45% of his baskets were assisted – this year only 30% of his baskets are being assisted, which is pretty clearly the reason for his efficiency decline (along with injuries etc.). In Phoenix during the SSOL days, pretty much every guy who scored with some regularity other than Nash had 50-75% of their baskets assisted, which probably accounts for how efficient they were. So if MDA can somehow convince Melo just to have 10-15% more of his shots come in the flow of the offense than already do, I think we’ll be very good.

    35. Brian Cronin

      So if MDA can somehow convince Melo just to have 10-15% more of his shots come in the flow of the offense than already do, I think we’ll be very good.

      There’s no doubt that you’re correct. We just have to see if he can be convinced. I’ve been saying for awhile now that he will be willing to do so, but even I have to admit that the proof is in the proverbial pudding. I can’t wait until we get to see if it happens! Plus, I can’t wait until we see Lin and STAT play together on Tuesday!

    36. nicos

      It’ll be interesting to watch Lin & Amar’e. I think Chandler is a much easier pnr partner as he actually sets screens most of the time and is so big that you can just lob the ball towards the rim and he’ll go up and get it. Amar’e likes to slip the screen- in fact he often slips it so early it’s really just a quick cut rather than a true pnr. On the plus side- and this is a big plus- you can get him the ball much farther away from the basket on the high screen than Chandler who really needs the ball within a few feet of the rim. Amar’e is great anywhere from the elbow in. I think you’ll still see Chandler as the primary pnr guy when both he and Amar’e are in the game but expect Amar’e to flash into the paint far more often now that there’s a point guard who can actually get him the ball on the move.

    37. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d like to see some numbers that show how ISOs are somehow more effective at the end of games than at any other time.

      I’m actually going to spend some time looking into this, because it’s a very good question – more complicated than it appears because–

      1) at the end of games, defenses are less likely to give up easy baskets (ie. because of lazy defense) – so whereas the average PPP-against might be 0.9 in the 2nd quarter of a reg season game, it might be something like 0.8 PPP in an end-of-game situation. It may be even more pronounced than this in the playoffs where the defense already knows what plays the offense likes to run in crunch-time situations. (this is conjecture)

      2) the good teams may have an average PPP of 1.0 on all plays, perhaps 1.1-1.2 on “high-percentage” plays like PNR roll man baskets and cuts, and maybe 0.9 on “low-percentage” plays like iso. BUT…

      3) turnover rates on iso plays are generally significantly less than on non-iso plays- for example, our average TO-R this year is 14% on all plays, but only 10% on iso plays.

      4) a turnover in crunch-time that leads to LBJ running out is basically a PPP of 2 for the opposition. In general, looking at Synergy stats, the average PPP for transition hoops is something like 1.2.

      So the coach has to make a decision – when each possession is so important, would you rather have a situation where turnovers are less frequent (and so risk is lower of an opponent run-out that might lead to the loss) and perhaps a slightly lower chance of your own success (ie. on a Melo iso rather than running your regular offense into a defense that knows what’s coming?) Would be very interesting to see if any service has TO-R in “crunch” time and then breaks down PPP by possession type and game situation. I don’t think it’s a throwaway question or…

    38. cgreene

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: We wouldn’t have been in the Finals if we had had Ewing. That’s the point.

      Actually we wouldn’t have been in the conference finals were it not for ewing. he played great against miami that year and we would have lost that series without him. check your facts.

      i think the pessimism around melo is strange. guess as knicks fans we are always waiting for the other shoe to drop. but there is no way we are going to be worse. fact of the matter is that we were playing better when melo went down. we had played well against chicago and boston and blown out a couple of lesser teams. forgetting about the ball hogging, melo is a better defender, rebounder and passer than bill walker/steve novak. i actually worry about the d with amare instead of jj. as i said in a previous post i’d start jj at the 3 over walker with amare back before melo is ready.

    39. d-mar

      I can’t wait for the howls from the anti-Melo crew the first shot he misses on an iso. This would be in dramatic contrast to all other NBA teams that move the ball continuously and end up with open shots, layups and dunks the entire game. You won’t see Boston, Chicago or OKC ever let their stars go one on one, the coach would be fired immediately.

    40. bobneptune

      Frank: I’m all-Lin on J-Lin but even so – if Melo had a performance like Lin did last night, this whole board would be in an uproar about how bad he shot, hero-ball, etc.

      i call complete bs on this. lin shot 7-10 in the first half and 1 for 14 in the second.

      if melo shot 7 for 10 everyone would be happy. in the second half lin missed 13 shots and 10 of those were within 10 feet and 9 of them were within 7 feet.

      if melo is getting to the rim with drives and misses 9 shots within 7 feet on drives, most on this board will have a bloody ticker tape parade for him.

      i think it was pretty clear, although lin was getting to the rim sat night in the second half, he didn’t have the lift to finish as in his previous 4 games. whether that was due to fatigue or him tweaking his ankle friday night and then re-tweaking it saturday night, i don’t know.

      sometimes the box score doesn’t tell the full story.

    41. bobneptune

      PC:
      I just realized Lin is only 23.

      did you think he got “left back” in high school or at haaaaaarvard??? :-)

    42. bobneptune

      Brian Cronin:
      By the way, I am pleased that yesterday we did give Lin some shit for playing hero ball in the second half (plus the end of the first half). It would be quite weak if we did not point it out after giving Melo so much guff over his hero ball ways. I like that we can be consistent with our critiques here.

      there is quite a difference when 9 of your 13 misses average 4 feet vs averaging 21 feet. i understand the result is the same, but the likely-hood of success is greatly different.

      also, even last night when lin was shooting a lot, he still moved the ball and delivered it to shumpert, chandler, novak, jefferies and fields where they were able to all shoot 50% or better.

      simply put…. lin makes the people around him better/more efficient. it is the point guard’s number one job.

    43. DS

      Brian Cronin: “Paging JR Smith!”

      I can understand why J.R. Smith MIGHT prefer the starting role w/ the Clips but C’mon!! the guy is from Newark and look at our depth chart w/ him in the mix:

      to Sussman, Andy
      1. Lin/Baron
      2. Smith/Shumpert/Douglas
      3. ‘Melo/Fields/Walker/Novak
      4. STAT/Jeffries
      5. Chandler/Harrelson

      If I’m MDA and have that depth I’d go 13 deep and wear opponents down.

    44. DS

      Sussman and Andy are not part of the depth chart though the latter is about 6’2″. I tried to get away w/ copying and pasting the contents of an email.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      bobneptune: there is quite a difference when 9 of your 13 misses average 4 feet vs averaging 21 feet. i understand the result is the same, but the likely-hood of success is greatly different.

      also, even last night when lin was shooting a lot, he still moved the ball and delivered it to shumpert, chandler, novak, jefferies and fields where they were able to all shoot 50% or better.

      simply put…. lin makes the people around him better/more efficient. it is the point guard’s number one job.

      that’s exactly the point.

      if Melo took 25 high efficiency shots and, by some improbable twist, missed 20 of them, nobody would complain.

      the problem is that it’s painfully obvious that most of his baskets come from high efficiency shots, and most of his mistakes come from stupid 20-foot jumpers or drives into triple teams, and yet he seems unable to realize that.

      after what Kobe said, that if he was in Melo’s position he wouldn’t change his game at all and would continue to iso a lot, it shows just how arrogant and oblivious to advanced stats and offensive breakdowns these guys are.

    46. Shad0wF0x

      Paul Pierce at 1:32 just hit a mid-range jumpshot that I’d like Melo to do more. It was a high-screen (Pick and Pop) by Garnett that led Pierce to shoot from the free-throw line while Boozer was trying to back up.

    47. JK47

      There was no dribble penetration and no pick and roll before Jeremy Lin’s emergence, so there were very, very few high efficiency shots to be had. In addition, Melo was playing “point forward,” so it’s not like he could move a lot without the ball. The ball was, by design, always in his hands. Not anymore. I will be shocked if this team continues to be an iso-heavy slog and if Melo and Stat continue to put up TS% of .506 and .513. Regardless of what you think of those two, they are better players than that.

      I’m looking forward to seeing it all come together.

    48. ess-dog

      Re: Linsanity,

      I bet there are guys every year in college who could do some similar things to Lin (or a lesser extent Landry) but get passed over.

      Why? They aren’t top athletes and/or they didn’t go to top schools. Athletic stats are measurable – it’s a safe “bet” to go with a guy who can run faster or jump higher. If a scout or GM is going to lose his job, it’s not going to be because he drafted a weakling from McNeese St. I’m not saying all top recruits are duds. It’s “generally” a good system, but basketball is so much more than physical gifts.

      In essence, the Lin situation could repeat itself if scouts looked at different kinds of guys pre-draft. It’s a nice lesson.

    49. cgreene

      It’s like some people on this board are in a time warp and can’t remember the games. For the first 15-20 games of the season Toney Douglas and Landry Fields were the worst back court in the NBA. Amare couldn’t hit a 15 footer to save his life and TC is a guy with limited offensive game and no game outside 5 feet. And still Melo’s ast rate was significantly higher than his career average and he was playing better defense. In addition he was being asked by his coach to essentially play a role that he’d never played before in a season with no camp and no practice. In addition he gets injured and it really hampers is shooting ability so his numbers take a dive. Then slowly Amare’s game starts to reappear, he finds some chemistry with Landry. He’s buying into the system and moving the ball. They blow out a couple of bad teams and come within a couple of plays of beating the best team in the NBA and another really good veteran team. Then the guy gets hurt. This weird phenomenon happens with Lin who from certain accounts Melo was pushing to get more playing time and people think the guy is a total loser. I am not a Melo apologist. When he plays bad he plays bad and I call him out on it. But geez. Let’s watch and see and then judge. The most likely outcome is that Carmelo Anthony will make the new Knicks a better team. This time we don’t have to trade anyone for him (:

    50. rururuland2

      Frank:

      Re: Carmelo – looking back through his years in Denver, on average about 40-45% of his baskets were assisted

      Oh, hmm, I just posted those numbers in the previous thread. Here they are again:

      Year/Point guard: Percentage of assisted baskets (fg %)

      2005 Andre Miller: 63 % (48% from field)
      2006 Miller, Iverson, Blake:60% (48% from field)
      2007 Iverson, Carter: 59% (49% from field)
      2008 Billups: 48% (44% from field)
      2009 Billups: 42% (46% from field)
      2010 Billups: 47% (46% from field)
      This year: 30%

      So, no, not 40-45 %, not earlier in his career.

      I’m really disgusted by all of the folks on this board feigning to be an authority on Carmelo Anthony. I guarantee you that no one on this board has watched more of Melo’s games, has more intently analyzed his play within the concept of his teammates, or has an understanding of what he’s done in this league and what he’s capable of doing.

      First, he was a .575 TS in this offense last year and a +. 600TS before the injuries this year.

      For those of who you think Melo is “just an iso” player. You want to explain to me why he has assisted percentages above 60 his first three years in the league?

      Did you ever think to perhaps I know a little bit of what I’m talking about here.

      As I’ve said a few times before, Andre Miller is the only true, competent point guard Melo has ever played with.

      Miller is the one guy who rewarded Melo for movement, which in turn incentivized that movement. When Melo played with Miller, he excelled when teams overplayed him, creating a lot of easy shots either in semi-transition, simple cuts, or alley-oops off fronts— even on a team with HORRIBLE spacing Melo, as Kenny Smith used to say, was great at getting “easy baskets.” (The Nuggets were one of the worst 3pt shooting teams in the NBA Melo’s first 3 years.)

      Of course that…

    51. rururuland2

      all changed with the Iverson trade.

      Melo cemented his ways as a ISO player because it was his best opportunity to get the basketball, even Iverson’s assist rates (low) are deceiving given how incredible a penetrator he was.

      But there was no rhyme or reason to Iverson’s passing game, squeezing Melo’s game into sporadic face-up attacks. Melo developed poor habits in the PnR (where he was rarely handled the ball), though he did significantly improve his offensive rebounding.

      Then Chauncey…

      Denver built its offense around Melo’s iso after the trade. Sure, they ran some high pick and roll and a few sets of course, but the ISO offense elevated the bigs game, the guards game (see what Nene and Aflallo are doing without all of the easy baskets created from tilted defenses).

      Denver built a weak-side attack around Melo’s ability to create attention, and they had one of the best offenses in league despite lacking a playmaking, penetrating point guard or dominant big.

      Think about that for a second. For all you who lament the ISO, Denver built a highly successful offense around it. Great not because of Melo’s shot-making, (though that was the threat it was based on) but because of the weak-side action. It was an offense that could replicate in the playoffs.

      So, Melo is just an ISO player?

      No, he’s developed Iso-centric habits because 1) he’s never played with a penetrating, passing point guard 2)his job in the Chauncey years was to Iso and create tilted defenses.

      He’s never played with a guy with Lin’s skill-set.

      But I do know this from the first 200 or so games of his career, if he plays with a point guard who can get him the ball when he’s in motion, he’s going to move.

      That’s why I’m so excited to watch him redevelop those instincts with Lin.

      And yes, he’s a good spot-up shooter and attacker against rotating defenses — great actually. The problem is that he gets so few opportunities on the weakside.

      His…

    52. danvt

      Ted Nelson: Also… the flow is pretty decent without Melo (though Lin is less than ideal as a distributor). A big problem to the flow is… Melo himself. Like you say, we’ll have to see.

      I don’t understand what you’re saying about Lin. Isn’t ball distribution his whole god damed raison d’etre?

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: “…what are the chances he suddenly changes his stripes and radically alters his game?”

      This is the radically condensed thesis of my body of posts on this site.

      Yeah, and it’s frankly tiresome. We have a coach who runs a pretty good system and, again, a pretty new team, considering the PG just came onboard. We have an excellent veteran SF who is now expected to mesh, again, in a new scenario. This may actually take some time, again, and in the meantime we’ll all be subjected this type of knee jerk naysaying. All I can say is that Carmelo better hit half his shot the first game back and we better win or it’s gonna be more doom and gloom, actually, forget that, we’ll hear it if he goes 10-10 from the field and 20 for 20 on FT’s with 10 Ast. and 10 RBs and we win by 20 against MIA.

      Z wrote:
      danvt:
      I’m going to jump into my computer and slap the next person who takes a shot at Melo before he plays…These millions of posts are way out of line

      Huh? I think it’s only one guy who mad a few melo-skeptical comments the entire ame thread. Other than hoolahoop, I don’t think anyone has mentioned Melo on this site for days.

      Maybe you see what I’m talking about now Z.

    53. BigBlueAL

      Brian, did you see Beck tweet today about correcting his post about Lin and his early-bird rights?? He now says Knicks will not be able to re-sign Lin and keep their mid-level. No team can offer Lin more than the mid-level so the Knicks will be able to match any offer for him but they would have to use the mid-level to re-sign him. Bummer.

    54. rururuland2

      TS% has been deflated by % of difficult ISO shots he takes. He takes a high percentage of them because they’ve become habitual, they’ve become habitual because of a lack of PG and the systems he’s been in.

      And I’m droning on and repeating myself because it doesn’t seem as though anyone’s paid attention when I’ve brought these things up before,

      From the time his game had blossomed about December of 2005 with a passing point guard, to the time Denver acquired Iverson, check out Melo’s month by month splits.

      12/2005: 29.3 ppg (47%fg)
      1/2006: 26.9 (48%)
      2/2006: 27.7 (46%)
      3/2006: 29.9 (55%)
      4/2006: 24.3 (45%)
      11/2006: 31.5 (51%)
      12/2006: 31.8 (49%)
      http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1975/year/2007/carmelo-anthony

      Those are his last seven months in the NBA playing with a passing point guard.

      I don’t know what his TS% was in that stretch but assuredly it’s close to .600.

      That was before he developed 3pt range.

      People who don’t think Carmelo can’t or wont adapt in this offense with Lin, either don’t remember what he did in his first three and a half years in the league, or never watched him on Team USA in MDA’s offense with playmakers around him.

      Melo led Team USA in scoring in 2006 when the ISO made just one appearance, when Melo rescued Lebron James, Wade, etc against Italy with 35 pts.

      Outside of that game, Melo feasted “off the ball.”

      This is the best situation Melo’s been in his entire career, if you are just looking at it from his own statistical/ efficiency perspective.

      I’d be shocked, frankly, if Melo doesn’t finish the rest of the season
      in the 575- 600 TS range, and in fact I expect him to be in the Durant range in this system (600-630), with superior TO/Assist and rebound numbers — and like always, he’ll be better at creating his own shot when you need it.

    55. BigBlueAL

      Just saw a Novak interview from after last night’s game and he mentions that during the last game (vs Lakers) Melo was all excited and kept saying on the bench how he cant wait to comeback and play with Lin. Stephen A Smith mentioned in a recent article that teammates have told him that Melo was the one imploring D’Antoni to put Lin in the lineup in the first place.

      I definitely think all this angst about Melo’s return is completely overblown.

    56. jon abbey

      you keep going, ruruland. a blind adherence to shooting efficiency numbers regardless of context is one of the most annoying things about the “numbers tell us all” crew.

    57. Z-man

      While I’m not ready to make any predictions a la rururuland2, I agree that Melo has not really played with a court-vision savant-type PG, and it remains to be seen what he can do with one. Paul Pierce is a guy with very similar stats to Melo that went to the next level after being surrounded by a strong cast and Rondo running the show. No reason to believe that it can’t happen with Melo. Great thing is, we don’t have to wait very long to find out!

    58. Owen

      “Stephen A Smith mentioned in a recent article that teammates have told him that Melo was the one imploring D’Antoni to put Lin in the lineup in the first place.”

      If that’s true, it’s good news. Who knows with SAS….

    59. Z

      rururuland2: I’m really disgusted by all of the folks on this board feigning to be an authority on Carmelo Anthony. I guarantee you that no one on this board has watched more of Melo’s games…Did you ever think to perhaps I know a little bit of what I’m talking about here.

      Honestly, I don’t know if you know what you’re talking about or not. All I know is that your monolithic dogma is tiresome and I tend to just skip on to the next entry when I see it.

    60. rururuland2

      Z: Honestly, I don’t know if you know what you’re talking about or not. All I know is that your monolithic dogma is tiresome and I tend to just skip on to the next entry when I see it.

      Great. That’s fine.

    61. Bruno Almeida

      Z: Honestly, I don’t know if you know what you’re talking about or not. All I know is that your monolithic dogma is tiresome and I tend to just skip on to the next entry when I see it.

      me too…

      ok, we get it, you love Carmelo and you support some evidence that he might be a much better player once he plays with a good PG.

      it still doesn’t change the fact that a guy who’s getting paid 20 mil a year should be the one making others around him better, and not the other way around.

      there is simply no solid statistical evidence that Carmelo can make others around him better, and his play has been downright depressing when compared with his salary.

      if he really becomes a much better, much more efficient scorer with Lin / Baron as the PG, awesome, I’d love that… but I’d rather wait and see.

    62. rururuland2

      Bruno Almeida: me too…

      ok, we get it, you love Carmelo and you support some evidence that he might be a much better player once he plays with a good PG.

      it still doesn’t change the fact that a guy who’s getting paid 20 mil a year should be the one making others around him better, and not the other way around.

      there is simply no solid statistical evidence that Carmelo can make others around him better, and his play has been downright depressing when compared with his salary.

      Not sure what this has to do with the argument at hand, though there is plenty of solid statistical evidence that Melo improves the play of others around him.

    63. Bruno Almeida

      for 20 million a year, I’d expect his impact to be much bigger than it is, that’s my point.

    64. rururuland2

      Bruno Almeida:
      for 20 million a year, I’d expect his impact to be much bigger than it is, that’s my point.

      And you’re claiming that my schtick is over worn here?

      Quite sure I’m bringing things into this argument that haven’t been touched on yet, and you come back with the “we traded melo for too much and he gets paid too much”?

    65. rururuland2

      Owen:
      “Stephen A Smith mentioned in a recent article that teammates have told him that Melo was the one imploring D’Antoni to put Lin in the lineup in the first place.”

      If that’s true, it’s good news. Who knows with SAS….

      SAS wasn’t the only one reporting that.

      Is it really too hard for you to believe that Melo would want to play with a real point guard?

    66. Bruno Almeida

      rururuland2: And you’re claiming that my schtick is over worn here?

      Quite sure I’m bringing things into this argument that haven’t been touched on yet, and you come back with the “we traded melo for too much and he gets paid too much”?

      you do bring up a nice perspective, yes.

      but the point is: you’re saying that Melo has had some stretches in his career when he was a very efficient scorer, and he MIGHT be able to reproduce that if the Knicks get consistent / good guard play.

      what I’m complaining about is the FACT that Melo was traded for too much, gets paid too much and hasn’t had the impact we expected a max player to have.

      I hope you’re right and he finishes the year with a .600 TS%, but that is still nothing more than a conjecture until he actually comes back and does it.

    67. JR Sec 112

      Rururuland, thanks for bringing some common sense to the board. Thats by far the best post(s) on ‘Melo at least this year, if not since the ‘Melo trade. Thanks for all the numbers I’m too lazy to look up.

      The irrational hate for ‘Melo on this board is laughable. I guess everyone sees what they want to see. I dont need to rehash the obvious facts about Melo pre and post injury this year despite playing out of position, lack of PG, etc. I dont understand why everyone even thinks the Knicks team of the last 5 games w/o Melo and Amare is even better than the prior 3 games. I posted after the Boston game that it was highly likely the Knicks were going to go on a good run, given how well they were playing in the last 3 games. Its nice that they took care of business vs. some weak teams, but its ludicrous to expect them to continue this streak against quality opponents without Amare and ‘Melo.

      Lets take a step back – they beat the Nets at home, the Wizards on the road, the T-Wolves on the road, the Lakers (an absolutely terrible road team this year coming off an OT game the night before vs their archrivals and potentially not even a playoff team in the west) at home, and Utah (middling at best) at home. The best the Knicks have looked in the past 2 weeks were losses against the Bulls and the Celtics. Both with full strength ‘Melo and Amare and w/o J-lin. I like Jlin, but people on the board act like he’s already a more valuable player than ‘Melo. Its a joke.

      In my opinion, the biggest potential problem for the knicks isnt Melo but Amare – his interior D has been atrocious. One of the reasons Chandler has looked so great the last 5 games is that he has Jeffries behind him.

    68. rururuland2

      Sort of, I’m saying that Melo’s only played with one true point guard in his career (one who couldn’t shoot, space the floor or run the pick and roll)

      I’m saying that from the time Melo became Melo, after his 19-yo season and his horrible out-of-shape, yet to discover work ethic Melo as a 20 yo (took until February for him to get in shape)

      the guy who emerged in December of his third season to the time his pg left, he was VERY efficient despite not having a 3pt shot.

      I’m saying Melo is still that guy, in fact, quite a bit better considering everything he’s added to his game since. And who knows how far beyond his previous efficiency highs he can guy now that he is going to be playing alongside really high efficiency players that can create efficient continuity plays themselves.

      Yes, he was traded for too much and relative to other elite players, he is paid too much.

      But that’s never going to change, and frankly, and yes this is more wild-eyed conjecture, I believe this team is going to have one of the great turnarounds in NBA history.

      I think it will finish with home court in the first round and a top 4 seed. And I think in the playoffs, with this roster, you’re going to see exactly why you “overpay” for a player like Melo, and why the “antithesis” model, the Knuggets, will again be a huge failure in that scenario.

      Will Melo’s salary equal his total production on the season relative to the worth of a win share or whatever metric you’re looking at?

      No. For one, Melo’s not built for a long season. He’s not a grey hound like Durant who never loses his legs or slows down. Melo’s built for quick bursts of explosions –and sometimes he doesn’t have them– Melo’s built like a football player. And a playoff format is ideal for him, so long as you have the proper balance on the floor.

    69. bobneptune

      Z-man:
      While I’m not ready to make any predictions a la rururuland2, I agree that Melo has not really played with a court-vision savant-type PG, and it remains to be seen what he can do with one.Paul Pierce is a guy with very similar stats to Melo that went to the next level after being surrounded by a strong cast and Rondo running the show.No reason to believe that it can’t happen with Melo. Great thing is, we don’t have to wait very long to find out!

      maybe i’m prejudiced having attended the university of utah in the luther “ticky” burden days, but i always thought andre miller saw the court really well and had a pretty good career for a guy who can’t make a jumper for his life.

      as to whether melo will fit or not….. it is completely on him. earl monroe was the quintessential one on one player, but had no problem subjugating his numbers for the team. and in melo’s case, he already make as much $$$ as he can, so it should be about legacy for him.

      if he can’t fit in with the program over the next month, they should jettison him. if he buys in….. the sky is the limit.

      if he refuses to share the ball properly under these clearly better circumstances, he will wish he never saw this town.

    70. Frank

      @ruruland- somehow my post got stuck in your rant but that’s fine. You don’t need to tell me- I’ve been one of the Melo defenders here! I apparently didn’t go far back enough on his %assisted baskets, but our point is the same- there is no reason to think that he can’t play well with Lin. People always point to his ball hogging in Denver the last few years, but Denver always had a great offense- so whatever he was doing worked.

      I’m actually really excited to see what MDA cooks up with all these toys.

    71. rururuland2

      How do you quantify a guy who’s capable of significantly elevating his game on both ends of the floor (see what he did defensively in the 2008 playoffs) against the best competition, and doing it when continuity offenses can be effectively shut-down, or significantly slowed?

      Hard to put a number on that if you’re truly concerned about the opportunity to win championships.

      Now that the Knicks have won the powerball in terms of the missing piece, such a situation, it appears, could be on the horizon. If not this year, the near future.

      And if you think Melo is somehow afraid of Lebron and Wade, his superiors and the team I think it will face in a Conference finals or semifinals at least once in the next few years, you haven’t been paying attention to how Melo raises his game in those matchups.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fztGWYgCinw

    72. JR Sec 112

      And, with Miller, as ruruland pointed out, he was highly efficient. As he was in the Olympics. Again, the guy who potentially could be the problem in the 2nd half of the season is AMARE. If he doesnt play better defense and continues to shoot at 51%TS, you could rationally make arguments that Jeffries would be better for this team.

    73. danvt

      I’m a guitarist and a song writer. I’ve played with a lot of bands. One thing I know, when the drummer sucks the band sucks. I mean, there’s really now way to hide any bad player, but particularly a drummer. The band sounds bad if the drummer can’t play. You can have Eric Clapton, Jaco Pastorius, and Billy Preston on guitar, bass, and Hammond organ but if the drummer is bad you still suck in the eyes of your friends wife.

      Melo is kind of like my friend, I’ll call him Paul, to protect the innocent. Paul is a great lead guitarist whose ideas seem to come from out of nowhere. He’s creative and intensely interesting. But Paul is mediocre rhythm player. You can’t task Paul with holding down a groove. When Paul has a great drummer and an excellent singer he can fill his role. Melo without a PG is like Paul without a drummer.

      Last years roster, especially once Chauncey went down (and then Amar’e in the playoffs) and this years for the first 21 games were deeply flawed. We were leaning on our nicely one dimensional SF to be all things on a basketball court. Perhaps not even Lebron could have saved these situations.

      I know skeptics and optimists alike are taking a wait and see attitude and I respect all points of view. I think everyone feels that we’ll now have a true referendum on the Melo / Amar’e Knicks. Somehow a kid that plays like Jim Keltner (Lin…Lin Keltner?) walked into the room after answering our ad in the Village Voice. I’m certainly very sanguine on our prospects and don’t understand some of the blatant cynicism like “Carmelo only wants to get his own”, “he can only iso”, “coach D is not gonna be able to convince him to change”, “He’ll need to radically alter his game”, etc., etc.

      In fact I’m kind of amazed we’re even talking about this after such an amazing and uplifting week, but, I guess we need something to chew on for a couple of off days.

    74. rururuland2

      Frank:
      @ruruland- somehow my post got stuck in your rant but that’s fine. You don’t need to tell me- I’ve been one of the Melo defenders here!I apparently didn’t go far back enough on his %assisted baskets, but our point is the same- there is no reason to think that he can’t play well with Lin. People always point to his ball hogging in Denver the last few years, but Denver always had a great offense- so whatever he was doing worked.

      I’m actually really excited to see what MDA cooks up with all these toys.

      Fair enough. And I think we’re going to see a really special offense develop, perhaps not right away, but this year. So I’m really excited too.

      though I find it interesting most people refer to Melo as a one-dimensional ISO player when he’s had so much success in the PnR this year.
      Now he gets to attack it without it being overloaded.

      Lin’s success in the PnR is much different as he keeps his dribble alive after the screen, allowing for clearer looks to develop around him.

      Had the Knicks shot just close to average in the first quarter of the season, Melo would be averaging well in advance of five assists a game.

      I know Synergy shows Melo as one of the more effective pick and roll wings in the game.

      And you started to see what Lin can do attacking a rotation after a Melo screen and roll. It’s going to work beautifully in reverse as well.

      Not a lot of teams have two proficient screen and roll ballhandlers.

    75. daJudge

      I know we all hope that this team does well. I think Melo will play great with this squad, with a bonafide 1 and my guess is that the Coach agrees as well. I wish that my biggest problem as coach was whether Melo would fit in on this team. Sorry, but this would not keep me up at night. This is an opportunity to go to the finals. Really. Personally, I don’t care at all what the owner spends on this team, unless there is an impact player available and it kills our cap room. To me, it is an irrelevant issue to anyone that is not signing the check. Personally, I’m sick and tired of the hypotheticals and it sounds to me like a rather pathetic torch song buttressed by well-selected stats. Me, I’m going to enjoy the ride. If you can’t ‘root’ for Melo or STAT because they make too much dough or are not worth it to you, or for whatever reason, do what makes you feel good. You have the absolute right to be miserable.

    76. rururuland2

      JR Sec 112:
      And, with Miller, as ruruland pointed out, he was highly efficient.As he was in the Olympics.Again, the guy who potentially could be the problem in the 2nd half of the season is AMARE.If he doesnt play better defense and continues to shoot at 51%TS, you could rationally make arguments that Jeffries would be better for this team.

      I hear that but I think Amar’e is going to absolutely explode with Lin.

      finding time for Jeffries might be tough.

      Should a guy like JR Smith sign, as I think we both understand how positive that would be for the Knicks, I would love to see a lot of lineups featuring Amar’e at the 5, Melo at the 4, and three of Shumpert, Lin, Fields and JR.

      That would be devastating.

    77. rururuland2

      danvt:
      I’m a guitarist and a song writer.I’ve played with a lot of bands.One thing I know, when the drummer sucks the band sucks.I mean, there’s really now way to hide any bad player, but particularly a drummer.The band sounds bad if the drummer can’t play.You can have Eric Clapton, Jaco Pastorius, and Billy Preston on guitar, bass, and Hammond organ but if the drummer is bad you still suck in the eyes of your friends wife.

      Melo is kind of like my friend, I’ll call him Paul, to protect the innocent.Paul is a great lead guitarist whose ideas seem to come from out of nowhere.He’s creative and intensely interesting. But Paul is mediocre rhythm player.You can’t task Paul with holding down a groove.When Paul has a great drummer and an excellent singer he can fill his role.Melo without a PG is like Paul without a drummer.

      Last years roster, especially once Chauncey went down (and then Amar’e in the playoffs) and this years for the first 21 games were deeply flawed.We were leaning on our nicely one dimensional SF to be all things on a basketball court.Perhaps not even Lebron could have saved these situations.

      I know skeptics and optimists alike are taking a wait and see attitude and I respect all points of view.I think everyone feels that we’ll now have a true referendum on the Melo / Amar’e Knicks.Somehow a kid that plays like Jim Keltner (Lin…Lin Keltner?) walked into the room after answering our ad in the Village Voice.I’m certainly very sanguine on our prospects and don’t understand some of the blatant cynicism like “Carmelo only wants to get his own”, “he can only iso”, “coach D is not gonna be able to convince him to change”, “He’ll need to radically alter his game”, etc., etc.

      In fact I’m kind of amazed we’re even talking about this after such an amazing and uplifting week, but, I guess we need something to chew on for a couple of off days…

    78. JR Sec 112

      Amen, Judge. Great post. Its true. If JLin is 80% of what he was this last week for the rest of the year, this is an opportunity to go to the finals. The Finals. I dont think thats an exaggeration.

      The whole Melo talk reminds me of Patrick. How many haters couldnt enjoy the ride cause Patrick was ‘aloof’, ‘flawed’, ‘not able to get over the hump’. How many now wish they just enjoyed the ride? How many love Patrick now?

    79. JR Sec 112

      Ruruland, that lineup, while potentially very dangerous offensively, has no interior defensive presence. Thats a disater in the playoffs, imo. Personally, if Novak can continue to shoot the 3, i dont really see much of a need for JR Smith, especially if Baron comes back with any semblance of a game.

    80. Spree8nyk8

      JR Sec 112:
      if Novak can continue to shoot the 3, i dont really see much of a need for JR Smith, especially if Baron comes back with any semblance of a game.

      Because Smith can be on the court with Amare and Melo and Chandler and Novak can’t. I would have to think that it’s THAT lineup where you need the longball ace most, Novak is going to get his minutes, but it’s going to be when one of those guys are not in the game. He won’t be playing with them.

    81. njasdjdh

      JR Sec 112:
      Amen, Judge.Great post. Its true.If JLin is 80% of what he was this last week for the rest of the year, this is an opportunity to go to the finals.The Finals.I dont think thats an exaggeration.

      The whole Melo talk reminds me of Patrick.How many haters couldnt enjoy the ride cause Patrick was ‘aloof’, ‘flawed’, ‘not able to get over the hump’.How many now wish they just enjoyed the ride?How many love Patrick now?

      Please stop comparing Melo to a FAR, FAR, FAR superior player. Thanks.

    82. bobneptune

      JR Sec 112:
      And, with Miller, as ruruland pointed out, he was highly efficient.As he was in the Olympics.Again, the guy who potentially could be the problem in the 2nd half of the season is AMARE.If he doesnt play better defense and continues to shoot at 51%TS, you could rationally make arguments that Jeffries would be better for this team.

      jesus christ! that’s quite an extrapolation. you think a guy with a .046 lifetime ws/48 and a 9.7 lifetime per is a better fit than a guy with a lifetime .596 ts% who happens t be suffering from an epic case of lick of point guarditis?

      jr for GM…..

    83. JR Sec 112

      Thats fair, but I dont see Smith being on the court with that lineup much anyway. Since he’s basically a high volume shooter, I dont see him fitting in that much with that lineup. I see him as a scorer off the bench. And if Davis is healthy, then I dont see a need for him. This team already has 2 SGs in Landry and Shump. I see Shump on the floor more in the closing minutes of the playoffs for his ball hawk D. What the bench needs more is another big.

    84. JR Sec 112

      I assume you havent actually watched any of the games, bobneptune, only looked at the TS% after each game. Also, who cares about lifetime TS% and WS? Bibby has a .104 WS lifetime. Thats better than beloved Landry Fields. Lets have Bibby start at the 2.

      Amare has had no life in his legs this year. Thats just a fact. He’s starting to come around recently, and I hope it continues. But if he only shoots 51%TS, its a problem because he plays TERRIBLE D. I assume you are oblivous to how much better D this team has been playing the last week. Of course you are, because you dont actually watch the games, you just check TS% and WS in the advanced box score afterwards.

    85. rururuland2

      JR Sec 112:
      Ruruland, that lineup, while potentially very dangerous offensively, has no interior defensive presence.Thats a disater in the playoffs, imo.Personally, if Novak can continue to shoot the 3, i dont really see much of a need for JR Smith, especially if Baron comes back with any semblance of a game.

      Hmm. Yes, it’s not a playoff lineup. It’s a ‘get-the-best -seed’lineup.

      I think JR Smith has a lot more value than Baron Davis right now.

    86. JR Sec 112

      Thats fair. I would agree that if baron has no juice left (a high possibility), then getting JR Smith would help a lot. Although Baron would be a better fit, since he can actually run the point and might even be useful in the playoffs. I’m worried about Jlin hitting the wall a bit, given how many minutes he might play and with this condensed schedule.

    87. rururuland2

      JR Sec 112:
      Thats fair, but I dont see Smith being on the court with that lineup much anyway. Since he’s basically a high volume shooter, I dont see him fitting in that much with that lineup.I see him as a scorer off the bench. And if Davis is healthy, then I dont see a need for him.This team already has 2 SGs in Landry and Shump.I see Shump on the floor more in the closing minutes of the playoffs for his ball hawk D. What the bench needs more is another big.

      Hmm, high volume scorer who is certainly more efficient and versatile offensively than Baron, and is quite content just hanging out on the wing or corner… not dominating the ball, when all the big guns are on the floor. He’s just going to put up shots, and in this offense he’s going to get good ones.

      He adds the element of being able to run across screens all day long. He’d be the Knicks Ray Allen, adding a few more layers of versatility to think about, whereas Davis is no quite redundant, but less congruent with the current situation.

      JR has the ability to run a split pg with Shumpert, as he’s done it decently in the past if need be.

      Given Baron’s struggles in Pnr, I actually think Junior would be a better PnR guy as well.

    88. rururuland2

      JR Sec 112:
      Thats fair.I would agree that if baron has no juice left (a high possibility), then getting JR Smith would help a lot.Although Baron would be a better fit, since he can actually run the point and might even be useful in the playoffs. I’m worried about Jlin hitting the wall a bit, given how many minutes he might play and with this condensed schedule.

      Baron is a freelancer, guy who’s at his best in semi-transition. He’s merely an average guy in the half-court, if that. And gets a lot of his shots on post-ups.

      He’s Chauncey without the shooting, but more creative as a passer — neither very good in PnR heavy offense the Knicks run.

      He knows how to a run a team, but for 10-15 minutes Shumpert and Smith are both good enough to share the pg duties.

      The umptempo possibilities with Lin, Shumpert at 2 and Jr at 3, perhaps Melo at 4 and Chandler at 5, would be pretty unreal, as Junior is a fantastic guy in the open floor, either leading break, getting open 3 or finishing.

    89. Will the Thrill

      If you think Melo is a better fit than Amar’e for this team…you have a strange, strange view on the game of basketball.
      Amar’e success = Pass first PG, pick and rolls, ball movement
      Melo success = Pass to Melo PG, isolation, holding the ball and surveying the D, getting hot at the right times

      JR Sec 112:
      I assume you havent actually watched any of the games, bobneptune, only looked at the TS% after each game.Also, who cares about lifetime TS% and WS?Bibby has a .104 WS lifetime.Thats better than beloved Landry Fields.Lets have Bibby start at the 2.

      Amare has had no life in his legs this year.Thats just a fact.He’s starting to come around recently, and I hope it continues.But if he only shoots 51%TS, its a problem because he plays TERRIBLE D.I assume you are oblivous to how much better D this team has been playing the last week.Of course you are, because you dont actually watch the games, you just check TS% and WS in the advanced box score afterwards.

    90. rururuland2

      Will the Thrill:
      If you think Melo is a better fit than Amar’e for this team…you have a strange, strange view on the game of basketball.
      Amar’e success = Pass first PG, pick and rolls, ball movement
      Melo success = Pass to Melo PG, isolation, holding the ball and surveying the D, getting hot at the right times

      When has Melo played with an Amar’e kind of point guard?

    91. JR Sec 112

      I think that sells BD a bit short. Again, depends on which BD we see. But when motivated, he looked pretty good even on the Clips in half court. He has good vision and can penetrate much better than JR. He can feed Chandler and Amare. He also was a pretty decent one-on-one when he wanted to be and can match up against bigger PGs. I see him potentially guarding Drose better than Jlin.

    92. jon abbey

      rururuland2:
      I believe this team is going to have one of the great turnarounds in NBA history.

      I think it will finish with home court in the first round and a top 4 seed.

      I am largely with you overall, but I think this is going too far. right now, Hollinger has ATL and IND both projected at 41-25 as the #4/#5 seeds. so to top that, we’d need to go 29-9 from here, which is a 63-19 pace for a full season, against a decidedly tougher schedule than we’ve had so far.

      there is virtually no chance of that happening, I thought I was being overly optimistic yesterday when I said NY should be gunning for the #6 seed.

    93. JR Sec 112

      Although its really not worth responding again and again, Will the Thrill, its obviously a lot easier to have success when you are playing next to Steve Nash and even Raymond Felton, then when you are playing w/o a true PG on the floor. Ruru has already brought up the stats on Melo – please go back and look at that post instead of making silly statements that are not backed up with any reasonable argument. Amare hasnt done any better than Melo w/o a true PG (in fact he’s done worse), if you look at this year and even last year after Felton was traded.

      I truly think people on this board arent actually watching the games sometimes. And the irrational love for Amare, when he hasnt done anything more significant than Melo in his career despite playing with one of the ALL-TIME NBA great PGs, is laughable

    94. rururuland2

      jon abbey: I am largely with you overall, but I think this is going too far. right now, Hollinger has ATL and IND both projected at 41-25 as the #4/#5 seeds. so to top that, we’d need to go 29-9 from here, which is a 63-19 pace for a full season, against a decidedly tougher schedule than we’ve had so far.

      there is virtually no chance of that happening, I thought I was being overly optimistic yesterday when I said NY should be gunning for the #6 seed.

      Fair enough. It wasn’t scientific. But, there are issues right now with Philly (lost 3 of last 4 at home), Atlanta (lost 4 of last 6 with five of them at home), and Indiana (lost 4 of 5) to think they might jjust be coming back to earth and not quite 20-30 win % points better than last year, given none of these teams have fundamentally changed or added to their rosters (unless you think David West is essentially good for 6-7 wins himself, whatever that means in WS)

      The Knicks have to climb at least four teams to make it in the top 4, but would hypothetically have to overtake just one of these current top 4 seeds.

      Having witnessed a 32-8 turnaround on a much less talented Nuggets team a few years back, and understanding the kind of pent up frustration from this team, specifically it’s high-paid stars, I can see them going on a run similar to that to finish the year, despite a tougher schedule.

      Maybe that’s Pollyanna, but it’s the kind of perfect storm dynamics I anticipate coming together.

    95. JR Sec 112

      Any word on when Melo will be back? It would be nice to get him back before the Dallas game. I believe if they have him back by then, they will be taking an 11 game winning streak into Miami a week from Thursday.

    96. Will the Thrill

      I don’t think that people have an irrational love for Amar’e. He was a better offensive player than Melo when he came to NY, and we didn’t have to trade an abundance of players to acquire him (and one of them is singlehandedly better than Melo). I do believe that Melo will come back and play well if he plays within the system. As many people have said before, it will be a certain upgrade over Billy Walker unless he hijacks the offense again.

      JR Sec 112:
      Although its really not worth responding again and again, Will the Thrill, its obviously a lot easier to have success when you are playing next to Steve Nash and even Raymond Felton, then when you are playing w/o a true PG on the floor.Ruru has already brought up the stats on Melo – please go back and look at that post instead of making silly statements that are not backed up with any reasonable argument.Amare hasnt done any better than Melo w/o a true PG (in fact he’s done worse), if you look at this year and even last year after Felton was traded.

      I truly think people on this board arent actually watching the games sometimes.And the irrational love for Amare, when he hasnt done anything more significant than Melo in his career despite playing with one of the ALL-TIME NBA great PGs, is laughable

    97. JR Sec 112

      Thanks ruru. That implies he gets a few minutes to get his legs under him against NO. Perfect. He’ll be ready for Dallas. That will be a good one. Also, good thing they will be rested going into Toronto. Raps have been playing a bit better of late and I’m worreid that will be a trap game.

    98. JR Sec 112

      The trade is irrelevant – its in the past, a sunk cost. However, its a fallacy to assume Amare was a better offensive player than Melo when he came to NY. Amare has a 55% TS% in his career when playing w/o Steve Nash. You just cant compare Amare’s seasons with Nash to any of Melo’s seasons. It would be ludicrous to do so.

    99. JR Sec 112

      Sorry, I should have mentioned Melo is at 54% for his career. And this despite this board’s constant insistence that all Melo does is shoot bad ISO shots and Amare gets great looks in the rhythm of hte offensive.

    100. JR Sec 112

      also, we still had to sign Amare to a max deal, which contributes just as much to the cap as Melo’s deal. And Amare is a worse defender than Melo.

    101. Will the Thrill

      Okay you got me, if you wipe out 80% Amare’s career stats (his best years) because he was playing with a great PG, he is around the same as Melo. Just because there is another good player on the team doesn’t make Steve Nash is the SOLE reason for Amare’s success, if it was, then we’d be seeing Hakeem Warrick lighting it up every night. Should we not count Melo’s shooting numbers where he gets assisted either?

      JR Sec 112:
      The trade is irrelevant – its in the past, a sunk cost.However, its a fallacy to assume Amare was a better offensive player than Melo when he came to NY.Amare has a 55% TS% in his career when playing w/o Steve Nash.You just cant compare Amare’s seasons with Nash to any of Melo’s seasons.It would be ludicrous to do so.

    102. Owen

      “Sorry, I should have mentioned Melo is at 54% for his career. And this despite this board’s constant insistence that all Melo does is shoot bad ISO shots and Amare gets great looks in the rhythm of hte offensive.”

      54% is no great shakes. That’s the point for us tunnel vision types.

      I would have no problem with Melo and his style of play if he were posting a 60% ts%. My problem with his style of play is that it just doesn’t get results. And yes, I know he has been on some pretty good offensive teams. But he has had some pretty good teammates….

    103. njasdjdh

      JR Sec 112:
      Ruru has already brought up the stats on Melo – please go back and look at that post instead of making silly statements that are not backed up with any reasonable argument.

      Am I the only one ENTIRELY unconvinced by 5 year old stats?

    104. JR Sec 112

      We did count Melo’s numbers when assisted and when with a decent point guard. See ruru’s earlier post. Owen, if 54% isnt great then complain just as much about Amare as Melo. And name the point guards Melo has played with. We’ve been through this a MILLION times and yet there still is no evidence to support all of these claims. You guys see what you want to see.

      And really, Nash is ‘another good player’. He’s a HOF PG. You’s think you guys might understand Nash has something to do with Amare shooting 60% TS%.

    105. Owen

      Melo has played with Andre Miller, Allan Iverson, Chauncey Billups, and Ty Lawson.

      Meanwhile, in Lebron’s breakout year his guard rotation was Mo Williams, Boobie Gibson, Delonte West, and Sasha Pavlovic.

      The argument that a great player needs other players around him is totally specious. If you do, you are not a great player. And yes, that means Amare is not a great player too. I think the people here who judge Melo undeserving of a max contract feel the same way about Amare.

      It would be interesting to see what people would think of Melo if he hadn’t landed on one of the fastest paced teams in the NBA and if he hadn’t had the teammates he has had.

      Context matters in basketball but not as much as the pro-Melo crowd thinks. Dwight Howard has yet to play with an All-NBA caliber talent. But his teams have put up four straight 50 win seasons, including two seasons of 59 wins, plus a finals appearance.

      Melo just isn’t anywhere close to as good as the real stars in the NBA, Chris Paul, Lebron, Durant, and Dwight Howard. But he gets paid like he is. And that’s not going to change…

    106. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      “…what are the chances he suddenly changes his stripes and radically alters his game?”

      This is the radically condensed thesis of my body of posts on this site.

      I think this is what a lot of us have been saying….only to be pounded on by Melo defenders wondering how we can make such outlandish speculations.
      Melo is melo. We all hope he fits in, but there’s little history to mak us believe he will.

    107. hoolahoop

      ess-dog:
      Re: Linsanity,

      I bet there are guys every year in college who could do some similar things to Lin (or a lesser extent Landry) but get passed over.

      Why?They aren’t top athletes and/or they didn’t go to top schools.Athletic stats are measurable – it’s a safe “bet” to go with a guy who can run faster or jump higher.If a scout or GM is going to lose his job, it’s not going to be because he drafted a weakling from McNeese St.I’m not saying all top recruits are duds.It’s “generally” a good system, but basketball is so much more than physical gifts.

      In essence, the Lin situation could repeat itself if scouts looked at different kinds of guys pre-draft.It’s a nice lesson.

      Lin is proof of what you’re saying.

    108. er

      Owen:
      Melo has played with Andre Miller, Allan Iverson, Chauncey Billups, and Ty Lawson.

      Meanwhile, in Lebron’s breakout year his guard rotation was Mo Williams, Boobie Gibson, Delonte West, and Sasha Pavlovic.

      Your arguement is sooo idiotic

      See Michael Jordan in 80s
      And Kobe after shaq

    109. jon abbey

      Owen:
      Melo just isn’t anywhere close to as good as the real stars in the NBA, Chris Paul, Lebron, Durant, and Dwight Howard. But he gets paid like he is. And that’s not going to change…

      no one is arguing otherwise, but we don’t have any of those four guys, so the goal now needs to be to improve the rest of the team around what we have.

      would people trade Amare (Orlando native) and Lin for Dwight Howard? I’m pretty sure I would do that instantly, before Otis Smith could get the whole sentence out of his mouth.

    110. max fisher-cohen

      @ruru

      There is certainly reason for optimism regarding Anthony becoming a more efficient player if Lin continues to do what he’s been doing. Even Cock Jowles would admit that if you cornered him. The sensible negativity about Melo I think takes two approaches:

      1) It (being Melo improving and playing within a team concept) hasn’t happened yet. There is some evidence from the past to support that it will, and there has been some evidence that he won’t. You can try to exonerate him by arguing Billups enabled his isolation play last year (yes, he shot efficiently, but his style of play undoubtedly hurt the team as evidenced by Amaré and Fields’ decline). You can point to Iverson or whomever you want as far as his past teammates, and these may very well be the reasons, but we have no way to prove it. Until I see him on the floor, as a fan, I will remain cautiously optimistic, but I don’t blame those who exhibit a serious skepticism.

      2) The second argument is that Melo isn’t worth his contract/the pieces we gave up. To me, there’s just no way to disagree with this one. It’s one thing to pick up a second tier star via free agency, especially if his presence may draw the interest of a better player (and you’ll have the cap space to acquire that player), but to throw away almost all space and 75% a team’s assets for that guy is inviting disaster, a replica of the mistakes the Knicks have made for the last ten years, and one that was halfway to biting us in the a$$ again until the miracle that Jeremy Lin appears to be occurred. I mean, if back in 2006 Jackie Butler had turned out to be the next Alonzo Mourning, those mid-2000s Knicks might have been pretty good too!

    111. er

      Also melo is so awful he has a 19-5 record against durant and lbj and DESTROYED cp3’s hornets in the playoffs go figure

    112. Brian Cronin

      Brian, did you see Beck tweet today about correcting his post about Lin and his early-bird rights?? He now says Knicks will not be able to re-sign Lin and keep their mid-level. No team can offer Lin more than the mid-level so the Knicks will be able to match any offer for him but they would have to use the mid-level to re-sign him. Bummer.

      Coon addressed it tonight on Twitter and he said:

      A waiver claim is changing team by assignment, so he should be Early Bird, and the people I’ve talked to agree. But I haven’t heard an official ruling from the league on this, so I’m not 100% yet. It’s possible this hasn’t come up yet, and they have yet to make an official determination. I hope to find out for sure soon.

      So he is still standing by his corrected standpoint that Lin has Early Bird Rights (something his FAQ still says the opposite of, though! Grr…if you changed your position, change your FAQ, dude!). Since he really is the expert on these things, I’m willing to stick with his position for now. Am I also saying that because I don’t want to edit my piece a second time just to turn it back to my original piece? Why yes, yes I am. ;)

    113. jon abbey

      max fisher-cohen:

      2) The second argument is that Melo isn’t worth his contract/the pieces we gave up. To me, there’s just no way to disagree with this one.

      but this isn’t an argument, this is talking about what has already happened and can’t be changed. if you want to do that, Walsh’s botching of the 2009 draft and not being able to land LeBron is a way way bigger deal. or we can talk about the Eddy Curry trade on every goddamn thread, it’s just as productive.

      the Melo trade happened, like it or not (for the record, I was and am fairly neutral on it, I thought it was a sideways move with potential depending on who else Melo could get to join him in NYC). Melo is a Knick, talent, flaws and all. if you can’t get past that, root for another team, root against him, but it’s a done deal and semi-ancient history at this point. continually bringing it up isn’t going to change anything.

    114. Brian Cronin

      no one is arguing otherwise

      I wouldn’t say “no one.”

      would people trade Amare (Orlando native) and Lin for Dwight Howard? I’m pretty sure I would do that instantly, before Otis Smith could get the whole sentence out of his mouth.

      And then Chandler for a point guard (and maybe a back-up 4)?

      Yeah, sure, I’d be up for that.

    115. er

      This trade talk is soo old get over it …if you wanna root for gallo become a nuggets fan damn

      Ive never heard so much love for a 2 game over 500 team

    116. Brian Cronin

      but this isn’t an argument, this is talking about what has already happened and can’t be changed. if you want to do that, Walsh’s botching of the 2009 draft and not being able to land LeBron is a way way bigger deal. or we can talk about the Eddy Curry trade on every goddamn thread, it’s just as productive.

      the Melo trade happened, like it or not (for the record, I was and am fairly neutral on it, I thought it was a sideways move with potential depending on who else Melo could get to join him in NYC). Melo is a Knicks, talent, flaws and all. if you can’t get past that, root for another team, root against him, but it’s a done deal and semi-ancient history at this point. continually bringing it up isn’t going to change anything.

      I absolutely agree with not bringing the trade up anymore. I thought the trade was a bad deal for pretty much the reasons you call it a lateral move (as in I also found it a lateral move, and if you’re going to give up that many players, cap space and draft picks for just a lateral move, it is not a good move – unless, of course, it resulted in CP3 or D-Will joining Melo). But yes, it is done with. I’d much rather move on with the discussion. But that has to hold true as a universal thing. It can’t be “Let’s not discuss the trade when Melo is doing poorly but let’s discuss the trade when he is doing well,” ya know? (and I don’t mean you, of course, Jon, I mean in general)

    117. Owen

      “Your arguement is sooo idiotic
      See Michael Jordan in 80s
      And Kobe after shaq”

      Well, I don’t want to have a full on “arguement” but:

      Michael Jordan was exceedingly awesome in the 80’s, leading the league in Win Shares from 86-93. With or without a good supporting cast he was the best player in the league.

      Kobe after Shaq posted the best TS% of his career with the dauntless Smush Parker manning the helm before Gasol arrived.

    118. Juany8

      I love that half the argument against Melo involves him not being better than top 50 players all time. Because obviously, unless you’re a top 5 player in the NBA, you don’t deserve a max contract.

      Also, the only 3 players still on the Nuggets that got serious minutes when Melo was there are Nene, Afflalo, and Birdman. Nene had a TS% over 63 the past 3 years, he’s at 55% now with WS/48 roughly half of what he had last year. Afflalo had about a 59 TS% with Melo (over 60 last year) and has dropped to 55%. Birdman just stopped getting consistent minutes, which is more indicative of poor play than any stat, but his TS% has dropped under 60% for the first time in 3 seasons, although admittedly only to 59%. It’s a little more complicated with Chauncey, but it’s interesting to note he was shooting terribly before being injured even though he went from playing with a “ball hogging” forward to the “best” point guard in the NBA (who has won a grand total of 1 playoff series lifetime and got absolutely annihilated by Melo’s Nuggets in 08).

      You can make a plausible argument that Melo doesn’t make his teammates better. It’s idiotic to think he’ll make them worse. Unless all that wonderful talent Melo used to play with simultaneously started playing worse when paired with strong point guards in unselfish offenses that don’t iso all the time. But hey, maybe drawing defenders away from your teammates isn’t valuable, after all it’s not kept track of in the box score.

    119. dogrufus

      Owen:
      Kobe after Shaq posted the best TS% of his career with the dauntless Smush Parker manning the helm before Gasol arrived.

      That had everything to do with the ’05 rules changes that made perimeters more efficient across the board. Nash, Wade, Bron, and Kobe all benefited… Even AI, well past his prime, started getting reasonably efficient.

      Michael Jordan was obviously ridiculous, especially in the 80’s. You really don’t think he would have posted even better efficiency had prime Grant and Pippen been playing with him back then rather than Corzine and Kyle Macy?

    120. er

      You are making my point for me they were the best in the league and still couldn’t win anything….so it’s all moot If you don’t have the Right supporting cast

      Owen:
      “Your arguement is sooo idiotic
      See Michael Jordan in 80s
      And Kobe after shaq”

      Well, I don’t want to have a full on “arguement” but:

      Michael Jordan was exceedingly awesome in the 80?s, leading the league in Win Shares from 86-93. With or without a good supporting cast he was the best player in the league.

      Kobe after Shaq posted the best TS% of his career with the dauntless Smush Parker manning the helm before Gasol arrived.

    121. Brian Cronin

      Also, the only 3 players still on the Nuggets that got serious minutes when Melo was there are Nene, Afflalo, and Birdman. Nene had a TS% over 63 the past 3 years, he’s at 55% now with WS/48 roughly half of what he had last year. Afflalo had about a 59 TS% with Melo (over 60 last year) and has dropped to 55%. Birdman just stopped getting consistent minutes, which is more indicative of poor play than any stat, but his TS% has dropped under 60% for the first time in 3 seasons, although admittedly only to 59%. It’s a little more complicated with Chauncey, but it’s interesting to note he was shooting terribly before being injured even though he went from playing with a “ball hogging” forward to the “best” point guard in the NBA (who has won a grand total of 1 playoff series lifetime and got absolutely annihilated by Melo’s Nuggets in 08).

      Amar’e, Fields and Shawne Williams’ TS% tumbled dramatically when Melo and Billups joined the team last year.

      I don’t think that’s Melo’s fault, but I also don’t think he is the reason those other players’ TS% went down without him, either.

    122. Brian Cronin

      By the way, I like how winning “a grand total of 1 playoff series” in six years is somehow dramatically different than Melo winning a grand total of 2 playoff series in eight years.

      I don’t think judging a player by how many playoff series his team won is fair, period, but if you’re going that route, that’s a pretty weak dis.

    123. max fisher-cohen

      Jon, I agree that it’s over, but I do hate the notion that some of the people responsible for the Knicks being terrible for so long will now take credit for what, if it continues to work out, was essentially a fluke. It’s like saying it doesn’t matter that Bush lied about WMDs because we are in Iraq now.

    124. Brian Cronin

      Let’s say you’re the GM of the Warriors – what would you do with your team? Would you try to trade Monta Ellis? He’s averaging 22 points and 6 assists a game.

      But he also has a TS% of .514 (yuck) with an eFG% of .464 (double yuck). Curry, meanwhile, has a TS% of .614 and an eFG% of .596.

      The team is 10-14.

      Wouldn’t you just try to build around Curry and maybe pick up a point guard for Ellis? A big man would be nice, but you’re not getting one of those for Ellis. So what do you folks think?

    125. Juany8

      I actually think Chris Paul is better than Melo, but I don’t think the difference is as dramatic as many people on this board would make it out to be. More than one person has said that a true superstar makes his teammates better and wins a lot of games. Unless it’s Chris Paul, or Kobe Bryant, or Kevin Garnett that has horrific teammates, then it’s ok because you can’t win with Smush Parker obviously. Again those guys are all better than Carmelo, but he is capable of playing right up there with them on any given game and still draws more defensive attention than almost any player in the league, both with and without the ball in his hands.

      Also my point about the Nuggets is that if the offense really opened up and got better when Melo left, you’d think the guys he played with would at least put up their normal efficiency if he was bad for an offense and playing selfless was good. Not that every single one would drop across the board. For the Knicks, Amar’e’s drop is disturbing, although even Felton has been better than what he’s consistently had to play with at point guard since the trade, considering the Billups injury last season. Landry Fields hasn’t been able to shoot with anyone since the trade, even Lin, and at some point you have to blame him and only him when he air balls wide open 3’s.

    126. jon abbey

      max fisher-cohen:
      Jon, I agree that it’s over, but I do hate the notion that some of the people responsible for the Knicks being terrible for so long will now take credit for what, if it continues to work out, was essentially a fluke.

      who are we talking about, Dolan? I don’t see who else that could apply to really.

      FWIW, Danny Ainge seemed like he was a bad GM, mediocre at best, until Celtic emeritus Kevin McHale handed him Kevin Garnett (where was David Stern on that one?). that’s the way it often works in the NBA, a lot of luck involved.

    127. dogrufus

      Am I the only one who is okay with the Melo trade because it was essentially Gallo/Felton/Moz/AR/picks for Melo/Tyson Chandler?

      Even if Gallo is better than Melo straight up, Tyson Chandler is definitely better than Felton/Moz/mid 1st rounder. Rock solid 7’1″ defensive anchors who never hurt you on offense don’t grow on trees. There are no 7’1″ Jeremy Lins lurking out there.

    128. dogrufus

      Brian Cronin:
      Let’s say you’re the GM of the Warriors – what would you do with your team? Would you try to trade Monta Ellis? He’s averaging 22 points and 6 assists a game.

      But he also has a TS% of .514 (yuck) with an eFG% of .464 (double yuck). Curry, meanwhile, has a TS% of .614 and an eFG% of .596.

      The team is 10-14.

      Wouldn’t you just try to build around Curry and maybe pick up a point guard for Ellis? A big man would be nice, but you’re not getting one of those for Ellis. So what do you folks think?

      Honestly, the reason the Warriors aren’t contending now is that they’ve drafted terribly with their top-end picks in recent years. If they’re going to just keep blowing every lottery pick it doesn’t matter what they do with Monta Ellis, because they aren’t getting an above average big man for him.

      Curry is great but can’t stay healthy. I suspect Monta’s efficiency would look better if he hadn’t missed so much time. The best course with Monta is probably to trade him for a more efficient SG- an Arron Afflalo type would be a good fit. Or a big PG who can guard SGs and look to set up Curry, like say, Rubio. Actual offers for Monta will be much worse than that, but he is one of the guys most overrated by conventional metrics so you never know.

    129. max fisher-cohen

      Yeah yeah, alright. Ainge was a terrible GM IMO, but at least everyone knew it. I guess everyone knew Isiah was terrible as well. It’s the Isiah team building strategy. Go for the big splash star. Ignore logic. Sort of like the clichéd big-business man in some 80s movie. Dolan was just carrying on the tradition when he took the reins from Walsh. But that’s it. THAT’S IT! Brian is right in that these conversations generally result in a lot of kicking and screaming and aren’t worth it. Next time the Knicks are in the position they were last year, that’s when I’ll bring up the Anthony trade again.

      @ Brian, You have to figure GSW has been shopping Ellis for a while now and can’t get much value for him. I would still trade Ellis just for whatever I could get. Maybe NJ will Ellis, Klay Thompson, some picks for Deron if it becomes clear that he’s not sticking around.

    130. Brian Cronin

      Actual offers for Monta will be much worse than that, but he is one of the guys most overrated by conventional metrics so you never know.

      Yeah, that was why I was figuring they should try to trade him. I saw Bill Simmons mention the other day that he was thinking about Ellis as a potential All-Star! When I saw that, I was like, “Oh man, if that is at all the thought of him around the league then they should deal him immediately.”

      As for the draft picks, well, they did get Curry, right? But yeah, overall, not pretty.

    131. er

      Totally agree but no way in he’ll gallo is better than melo tho

      dogrufus:
      Am I the only one who is okay with the Melo trade because it was essentially Gallo/Felton/Moz/AR/picks for Melo/Tyson Chandler?

      Even if Gallo is better than Melo straight up, Tyson Chandler is definitely better than Felton/Moz/mid 1st rounder.Rock solid 7’1? defensive anchors who never hurt you on offense don’t grow on trees.There are no 7’1? Jeremy Lins lurking out there.

    132. yoda4554

      I feel like this argument is never going to go well, but let me just make this point.

      We all agree that Gerald Wallace–same age, position, experience as Anthony–is not one of the league’s best players, right? Valuable, but not close to a max-level guy? Maybe on the edges of the top 10 among small forwards? Well, let’s look at Wallace versus Melo. They’re both pretty good rebounders and passers for their position–Wallace has been slightly better at the former over his career and Melo at the latter. Melo obviously is a better scorer, but while Wallace can’t really match him on volume, they’re basically scratch on efficiency. So it’s an edge to Melo, but not an enormous one–you’re talking a somewhat above-average versus a very good scorer.

      But Gerald Wallace is also one of the best defensive 3s in basketball, while Melo has always been mediocre at best (and arguably well below-average). That’s a significant advantage to Wallace. You can quibble about how much, but I think it’s hard to say that it’s any less of an advantage than Melo’s as a scorer.

      Since it’s very hard to argue that Carmelo Anthony is better than a guy that no one considers among the best players in basketball even when he’s playing well, it just doesn’t make any sense calling him an elite player under any circumstances. And Melo has not played well this year–you can argue it’s because he’s been hurt, but chronic injury’s not really a good selling point for a player with his mileage. You can argue all you want about whether his drastic underperformance relative to salary/expectations is worse than, say, Toney Douglas’, but it’s been severe either way. (Also, if Melo’s big skill is supposedly creating shots for his teammates, these past few games don’t say much for that, either, since the Jefferies/Walker squad Lin’s been playing with is certainly no better offensively than the one Melo’s had, in addition to being better defensively.)

    133. Frank

      jon abbey:
      Lin is eligible to be traded Feb 27, then maybe we could move Chandler for a quality guard.

      Wait, WHAT THE &^%$^%#$? You want to trade Chandler, who is only my favorite Knick since I don’t know, Starks/Ewing/Oakley/Mason?

      This is just crazy talk. I assume you meant if we traded Amare and Lin for Howard, we would then trade Chandler. Again, this is crazy talk. Can you imagine the PR backlash if the Knicks traded Jeremy Lin and Amare? Regardless of the fact that China and Taiwan would probably cut off trade with the United States over it (not to mention riots in the streets of NYC), this team has won 5 in a row, has gone through, what, 213867 players in the last 3 years, and you want to blow it up all over again?

      I think we need to just forget any big trades going forward. They are just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Our team until 2014-15 will be built around Amare, Melo, Chandler, and Jeremy Lin. Done. Everything else will be a complementary piece around those 4. Our starting 5 (barring a JR Smith signing) until 2014-15 will be J-Lin, Fields or Shumpert, Melo, Amare, and Chandler. We need shooters, defenders, and more shooters and defenders.

      And re: Melo’s return – I think that this whole J-Lin thing is very instructive. No matter how much hot air is being blown around out there, no one has any idea what is going to happen with any player. Let’s just see how it plays out. I for one think Melo will be relieved to not have to try to be LBJ – he can concentrate on being more like Durant, who lets Westbrook do the heavy lifting in terms of ball handling etc. There is no shame in not being LBJ or Jordan, and I don’t think Melo needs to apologize for not being them or for his contract.

    134. Owen

      Never mind Wallace, what about Iggy? How is is possible that anyone thinks Melo is a better player than Iguodala? Oh right, he scores a lot of points….

    135. Brian Cronin

      You know I loves me some Tyson Chandler, but if Amar’e and Lin honestly could get Howard, you have to do that. And then you’d have to trade Chandler. I agree that it won’t happen, but if it was an actual possibility, I’d take it.

    136. Nick C.

      Brian, even though Howard > Amare wouldn’t that put the team back where they were before the Linsanity?

    137. er

      Yep iguadala is great lmao

      You melo bashers are grasping for straws

      Wake me up when iguadala goes 42 & 17 @ the Boston garden in da playoffs and don’t give me “the team lost” because everyone goes gaga over Jordans 63 in a playoff loss

      Owen: Never mind Wallace, what about Iggy? How is is possible that anyone thinks Melo is a better player than Iguodala? Oh right, he scores a lot of points….

    138. Doug

      Brian Cronin:
      You knowI loves me some Tyson Chandler, but if Amar’e and Lin honestly could get Howard, you have to do that. And then you’d have to trade Chandler. I agree that it won’t happen, but if it was an actual possibility, I’d take it.

      That would gut me ten times worse than the Melo trade. I mean it.

    139. Brian Cronin

      Brian, even though Howard > Amare wouldn’t that put the team back where they were before the Linsanity?

      Well, admittedly, it would only work if you could deal Chandler for a point guard, but how hard can that be? He’s Tyson freakin’ Chandler, he’s awesome!

    140. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      You knowI loves me some Tyson Chandler, but if Amar’e and Lin honestly could get Howard, you have to do that. And then you’d have to trade Chandler. I agree that it won’t happen, but if it was an actual possibility, I’d take it.

      I don’t think Tyson can be traded for about another month, so say another 14 games from now. If Lin is putting up 15 points, 10 assists, 4 rebounds, and 2 steals per 36 on a TS in the high 50s (I think this is optimistic but not unreasonable) and Tyson continues his beasting, I have to be honest – as great as DH12 is, I don’t think DH12 + random PG > Tyson+Amare+JLin. IMO Tyson is the 3rd best center in the NBA right now, and actually maybe the second best in terms of current play and intangibles (Bynum is very good but the only reason I’d rather have Bynum is because he’s younger). And that’s not even including the possibility that Amare could turn into a 60% TS PNR monster again.

      I think this is a very good group right now – not just talent-wise but with the structure of our salaries. Right now the whole roster is built to contend until the end of 14-15 — and after that, there are no significant roster commitments. So we roll with this until 14-15 and if it’s good it’s good – otherwise we let them all walk and blow it all up after that season.

    141. Brian Cronin

      That would gut me ten times worse than the Melo trade. I mean it.

      Ha! I’d be sad, too, but come on, it’d be Dwight freakin’ Howard! But don’t worry, it almost certainly will not happen. Question, though – is Lin/Amar’e a better offer than Bynum, especially when you factor in what Lin should do for Amar’e’s game?

    142. Frank

      That’s not even counting the chemistry in that locker room right now and the story that is Linsanity. I totally agree with Doug – if we trade these guys for a whiny but awesome Dwight Howard and end up with Baron Davis, Melo, and DH12, I might go and become, I don’t know, a Sacramento Kings fan or something. That would just tear me to shreds.

    143. Brian Cronin

      I do agree, Frank, that if Lin continues to play like a monster, it does not make sense to trade him period. So yeah, especially since Howard isn’t going to be moved before Chandler becomes tradeable anyways (as no way do they move him before the All Star Game, and I bet they wait until all the free agents are available), it makes sense to see what happens by then.

    144. Ted Nelson

      rururuland2: People who don’t think Carmelo can’t or wont adapt in this offense with Lin, either don’t remember what he did in his first three and a half years in the league, or never watched him on Team USA in MDA’s offense with playmakers around him.

      There’s no need for the condescending tone. You can pretend you are the only one who knows anything about basketball, but that doesn’t make it true. It is not predestined that Melo can only increase his TS% to .600 or remain in the .550 range with the great Lin… we’ll have to wait and see.

      Melo’s first four years in the league his TS% never topped .563. And the first three of those years Andre Miller was a Nugget all season. A few months of data is a small sample that doesn’t prove much. “His best few months he was efficient” is a weak argument to prove how he will adapt to a new teammate.

      Chauncey Billups is also a good passer. He had mid-to-high 30 ast-rate seasons in Detroit. It wasn’t that he didn’t have a “true PG” in Billups, it was the way the offense was run. If Melo really had a problem with the offense being run through him rather than Billups for so long… why didn’t he say something to Karl or Billups? I’m not saying Melo isn’t a very good player… I’m saying he has not been a great player to date. Maybe that suddenly changes in his 9th season, it’s just not likely.

      jon abbey: no one is arguing otherwise, but we don’t have any of those four guys, so the goal now needs to be to improve the rest of the team around what we have.

      Or… the Knicks could trade Melo. Why do they have to “build around” Melo, but you’re all for trading their best scorer (Amare) and their emerging PG (Lin)?

    145. jon abbey

      Ted Nelson:

      Or… the Knicks could trade Melo. Why do they have to “build around” Melo, but you’re all for trading their best scorer (Amare) and their emerging PG (Lin)?

      I don’t think Melo has as much attraction to ORL because of the hometown connection and they’ll want a big man in return.

      And I’d certainly sell high on Lin if it meant landing one of the handful of legitimate franchise players in the league. I love Chandler too, and I think he’s going to get better with Baron Davis (his longtime buddy from Compton), but I also don’t think he can keep this up for his whole contract.

    146. Ted Nelson

      Gideon Zaga: I don’t think Melo has as much attraction to ORL because of the hometown connection and they’ll want a big man in return.

      And I’d certainly sell high on Lin if it meant landing one of the handful of legitimate franchise players in the league.

      I would also trade Lin at a price. I don’t really have a problem with a Lin-Amare for Howard deal. Howard-Melo might contend with some pieces around them. If you moved D’Antoni for another coach I might just keep Chandler next to Howard and have a really sick defense while aiming for a solid offense hampered a little by crowding in the paint.

      I’m not saying to trade Melo to Orlando. I’m just saying to consider trading him. Who knows if Orlando is interested in Lin-Amare? (I do think there’s about as good of a chance Orlando is interested in Melo as Amare… they don’t have too much around Howard and might want a “superstar” who can get his own shot and be “built around.”)

      I don’t think Tyson will keep up a .736 TS% even for another month, but at 29 this season and signed for 3 more years after… I think he can remain productive.

    147. Nick C.

      I know this is the internet but why the trade talk? Much or some of the board was pissed last year when a rootable probable playoff team was blown up to get the “star” du jour (and I know Howard is one order above Melo but Melo was supposed to be the hook that reeled in Paul). This isn’t directed at you Ted, and welcome back, or anyone in particular just the mindset. Is it really so awful to see how this plays out rather than what to me seems like perpetually chasing our own tail.

    148. Frank O.

      Ted Nelson: Interesting. I still doubt he can make that his game. Right now it seems like a marginal part of his game. I agree that it’s a whole lot about shot selection with him… but as an 8 year NBA vet what are the chances he suddenly changes his stripes and radically alters his game?

      Hey Ted. Welcome back.
      I think you are right to be concerned about Melo, but I had a few thoughts.
      1. Melo actually has a pretty beautiful shot form-wise. I think his ability to score under pressure is an added bonus, but he’s been forced into the role because he’s never played on teams that mode the ball like the Knicks. His gift is his curse.
      2. Because his shot is so solid, I suspect getting the ball in one on one situations or spot up situations is going to vastly improve his efficiency.
      3. Given the amount of triple teams he’s faced this year, Melo has actually shot pretty well. His assists are up as well.
      4. One of Melo’s issues has been his trust in the guys around him. That issue probably is gone. The writing is on the wall. His reputation now hangs in the balance, as respected people around the NBA, excluding Kobe, the biggest ball hog in the game, are saying he needs to play within the offense and not stop ball flow. I think this is what Frank meant by saying he’s not dumb. He can become a high TS% high eFG% scorer in this offense and help lead this team to a championship, and keep his body from the pounding he’s received to date at the same time.
      The offense has been placed in Lin’s hands. D’Antoni didn’t call a time out last night, leaving the generalship tqo Lin. Lin waved off a pick from one of the greatest pick setters in the game last night, and He buried a three. Chandler wanted a shot at a rebound, but having gotten one O board, adds we’re against us getting another board, which means the dinos

    149. Frank O.

      Dinos would have had another shot.
      Lin showed he’s ready to lead, and I think Melo gets that.
      Sorry I his submit by accident and needed to finish that sentence

    150. Frank O.

      Yeah, the trade talk is a little funny right now.
      I think, as D’Antoni teams show, Melo and Amare will greatly improve their efficiency with Lin at the point.
      Amare shot 6-9 down the stretch after a cold start. His shot got blocked, and that is an issue of rust. a few shots he did nothing to disguise his shot. He just dangled a shot out there. A little time and those turn into dunks.
      I wouldn’t trade any of the front 8 players right now. The team chemistry is one of e most important aspects of their game and they are getting contributions – and those contributions are respected – from every past of their bench, save Bibby and TD.
      We they a having trouble scoring, they have a line up that they know will play shut down D and score a little. It really is amazing what Lin has afforded them.
      This team is going to have a great front line, a very good PG, and Shump is a dangerous clamp down defender. The sky is the limit.

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