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Monday, December 22, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Apr 29 2012)

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Baron suffers back injury (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:00:43 EDT)
    Baron Davis’ back is acting up again.
    Davis said his back was stiff going into halftime after he ran into a few screens in the first half.
    “The collision put my back in shock, but I should be alright for Monday,” said Davis, who scored ten points in the first half.
    Davis also said the Knicks need to stay composed in Game 2 on Monday.
    Carmelo Anthony and Mike Woodson received technicals for complaining about foul calls. Amare Stoudemire was upset with officials after he was whistled for his third.

  • [New York Daily News] Lupica: King rules court (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:34:14 GMT)
    LeBron James is the biggest star and the best player and that is why he is facing more pressure in this NBA postseason than anybody in his sport has ever faced, moving up on two years since he had his “Decision.”

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks can’t stand the Heat, lose in a rout (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:53:20 GMT)
    The Knicks playoff losing streak has now reached 11 straight games and that may be the least of Mike Woodson’s problems in the aftermath of Miami’s dominating 100-67 victory on Saturday.

  • [New York Daily News] Shumpert out for season with torn ACL and meniscus (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:48:56 GMT)
    Iman Shumpert’s promising rookie season ended on Saturday when prematurely when the Knicks starting shooting guard suffered a torn left ACL and meniscus in the second half of the Knicks 100-67 Game 1 loss to the Heat.

  • [New York Daily News] With Chandler sick, Knicks are ill-equipped (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:28:40 GMT)
    First it was the flu that disoriented Knicks center Tyson Chandler, the team’s steadiest player. Then came the Heat, charging hard into the lane toward him and then eliminating his routes to the rim on offense.

  • [New York Daily News] Anthony and Knicks look shot against Heat (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:24:55 GMT)
    Only Derrick Rose had a worse day than the Knicks. Rose is done for the playoffs, a victim of a catastrophic knee injury, and the Chicago Bulls’ run at an NBA title is done after only one game.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Shumpert could be out till December (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:21:34 GMT)
    Iman Shumpert’s promising rookie season ended prematurely on Saturday when the Knicks’ starting shooting guard suffered a torn left ACL and meniscus in the second half of a 100-67 Game 1 loss to the Heat. The knee injury, which will require surgery, will sideline Shumpert for 6-to-8 months, the Knicks announced.

  • [New York Times] NBA Playoffs | Game 1: Heat 100, Knicks 67: N.B.A. Playoffs — Heat Have Little Trouble With Knicks (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:17:18 GMT)
    Miami’s LeBron James scored 32 points in just three quarters, and the Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony barely broke double digits in scoring as the Heat won the first game of the series.

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Knicks and Bulls Suffer Differing but Dispiriting Losses (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:37:21 GMT)
    Chicago lost Derrick Rose for the season to a knee injury, but the Knicks also suffered a loss to the psyche, and a convincing one at that.

  • [New York Times] Bulls and Basketball an Obsession for Thibodeau (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:10:07 GMT)
    The Bulls’ Tom Thibodeau, last year’s coach of the year, is perhaps the most obsessive person in a profession populated by those proud to be obsessed.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Bulls Beat Sixers but Lose Derrick Rose to a Torn A.C.L. (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:24:07 GMT)
    Derrick Rose, the league’s reigning M.V.P., was helped off the court late with a torn A.C.L. in Chicago’s victory over Philadelphia.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Tyson Chandler Loses Battle to Flu and Fatigue (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:09:13 GMT)
    Flu-ridden, fatigued and ultimately frustrated, Tyson Chandler could not provide the spark against the Heat, especially on defense, that he did for much of the season.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Iman Shumpert Out for Season with Torn Knee Ligament (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:37:20 GMT)
    The Knicks guard Iman Shumpert will be out six to eight months after he tore the anterior cruciate ligament and the lateral meniscus in his left knee.

  • [New York Times] Rose Injury Casts Major Cloud Over Bulls Win (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:36:46 GMT)
    Chicago and Miami opened the National Basketball Association post-season with comfortable wins on Saturday but the Bulls paid a steep price for their victory when Derrick Rose was ruled out for the rest of the season with a knee injury.

  • [New York Times] Durant’s Winner Lifts Thunder Past Mavs, 99-98 (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:38:16 GMT)
    Kevin Durant was determined to not let the Oklahoma City Thunder lose another playoff game at home to Dallas.

  • [New York Times] Peter Scolari Has 3 Big Roles in ‘Magic/Bird’ (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:48:07 GMT)
    Peter Scolari, the actor known for “Bosom Buddies,” plays Red Auerbach, Pat Riley and Jerry Buss in the Broadway show about Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

  • [New York Times] Magic Shock Pacers 81-77 in Game 1 (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 02:54:55 GMT)
    The Orlando Magic entered Indiana’s building as huge underdogs and walked out talking trash.

  • [New York Times] James Scores 32, Heat Roll by Knicks 100-67 (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:27:42 GMT)
    LeBron James dropped to the floor holding the back of his head, grimacing and then staggering a bit when he reached his feet.

  • [New York Times] Knicks-Heat Replay: Game 1 (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:51:05 GMT)
    A look at Game 1 of the first-round playoff series between the Knicks and the host Miami Heat, won by Miami, 100-67.

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ defense takes step backward in Game 1 blowout (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 02:41:54 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Now here was something from Miami coach Erik Spoelstra you had to figure you would never hear.
    “It’s documented now their defense is one of the tougher ones in the league,â? Spoelstra said as he prepped his Heat for Game 1 of the Eastern Conference first round series…

  • [New York Post] Melo shoots blanks as LeBron, Heat win rout in opener (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:46:06 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? A flu-ridden Tyson Chandler was in a back room getting a two-hour IV session. Iman Shumpert was in a Miami hospital getting an MRI exam on his knee â?? his series over, next season’s training camp over, too. Carmelo Anthony spoke in a low, depressing whisper, sending out prayers…

  • [New York Post] All went awry for Knicks in blink of an eye (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:52:10 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? It can happen that quickly, tumble that rapidly. One moment you glance at the scoreboard and the Heat are protecting a slim 30-29 lead, there is an uncomfortable murmur creeping through AmericanAirlines Arena, and the Knicks look prepared to dig in and make this a game, make this a…

  • [New York Post] Knicks can’t afford another Melo stinker (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:11:36 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Carmelo Anthony was voted Player of the Month in the NBA for the dazzling numbers he put up in April. Someone should tell him the month isn’t over yet.
    The Knicks’ ugly 100-67 loss to the Heat in Game 1 of their best-of-seven series can’t all be…

  • [New York Post] Lin may return in round 1 (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:08:51 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Linsanity may hit the first round.
    Jeremy Lin, out nearly a month following left knee surgery, may return against the Heat after all, depending on how far the Knicks can extend the opening-round series after yesterday’s devastating 100-67 Game 1 loss.
    With Iman Shumpert out six to eight…

  • [New York Post] World’s Most famous Arena making noise again (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 03:10:00 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? There were so many springs when the old building would lie quiet and still, when nights that should have been filled with the acoustic magic of a big hockey game or a do-or-die basketball game were instead empty and sad.
    It got to the point when you could forget…

  • [New York Post] Flu-ridden Chandler off his game (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:55:29 -0500)
    At one point during yesterday’s second quarter, an alley oop pass was thrown in the direction of a flu-ridden Tyson Chandler. The center, normally automatic when on the receiving end of alley-oops, was unable to grab the pass and slam it home.”I felt like I was just kind…

  • [New York Post] LeBron starts his playoffs in style (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:19:07 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Ever since LeBron James’ Finals campaign ended in misery last June, he has waited for a do-over.”I prepared myself all season, through the offseason,â? James said. “So I’m excited and humbled and blessed.â?Add ticked. Because that’s how he certainly appeared yesterday after he took a…

  • [New York Post] Miami’s defense shuts down Anthony (Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:18:54 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? The memory was all too vivid. Less than two weeks ago, Carmelo Anthony caught the ball where he wanted, when he wanted and then did what he wanted as he scored 42 points for the Knicks against the Heat. “That was not a very good defensive plan by us…

  • 402 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Apr 29 2012)

    1. DS

      Like my parents used to say after getting home from vacation while I was in high school, “what went on here last night?”

      It turned into the NBA Owner Ethics Power Rankings. I guess anything’s better than discussing that game, though.

    2. johnlocke

      With Shump out, If we have Fields guarding Wade and Melo guarding Lebron this whole series it’s going to get ugly fast. We need to make a line up change. Problem is woody won’t do it.
      If there was ever a time to bring Amare off the bench. This would be it.
      We should start Davis, JR, Fields, Melo and Chandler. Have Fields dedicate all his energy to defending Lebron and have JR guard Wade. Bring Amare off the bench, along with bibby Novak and Jorts. Sit Jeffries unless he’s really healthy.

      Of course woodson will just start the same lineup and replace shump with fields which would be stupid

    3. johnlocke

      We have to get 1 game at least man. Not giving up yet until they lose game 3. In either case I’d like to see what kind of adjustments Woodson makes on offense…(see above) and defense….can we have some sort of game plan for defending Lebron besides melo guarding him one on one? What about hard traps, some blitz double teams? Pack the paint and force Lebron to get 20 assists instead of 40 pts….that’s my main motivation for watching the rest of the series. How do our star players and coaches respond….will provide some indications for grunwald on how we need to build to bc a championship team

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      It’s a sweep, johnlocke. There’s just no way.

    4. tastycakes

      It feels like the Heat actually won the series in a 5 minute stretch late in the second quarter. “LeFlop” was brilliant, he seized momentum with an archvillain’s relish and stepped on our necks while we were down.

      I dunno, I’ve been surprised by the resilience of pro athletes before, but this one was pretty earth-shaking. And I, uh, distrust the mental fortitude of Melo and Amar’e.

    5. d-mar

      Sitting here struggling to come up with reasons to be optimistic about this series, or at least not to give up all hope. All I can think of:

      1) Chandler kicks the flu and comes back Monday close to 100%. He was a shell of himself yesterday, a net negative for the team

      2) Woody watches a lot of film, and makes Miami pay for fronting Melo on every possession. And point #1 comes into play here, because Chandler was so out of it yesterday he wasn’t even doing his usual dives to the hoop on Melo doubles

      3) Melo will be on a mission (see game 2 vs. Boston last year, when he was the only offensive weapon the Knicks had and scored 43)

      4) LeBron won’t make basically every jumper he takes

      5) Every playoff game is an entity unto itself. I’ve been watching the NBA for a long time, and can’t tell you how many times after a game 1, it looked the winner had it all figured out and the loser had no chance, only to see things completely change in game 2.

      Well, let me take off my rose colored specs off now and go walk the dog.

    6. er

      If you sit back and think about it yesterday was inevitable…..go back a couple weeks melo had 42 Knicks still lost by about 6… so when he shoots like he did yesterday they would get blown out.

      2nd Chandler was sick and lOoked it, we get nothing outta jefferies now due to injury, the baron is constantly hurt even tho he played well

      Finally lebron got every imaginable whistle, even a phantom flagrant…. Not to mention he was hittin J’s

      Woody needs to exploit the extreme overplays on Anthony, and involve stat more

    7. afrikan_hermis

      @johnlocke I agree with you 100% Woodson needs a line up change!! STAT should come off the bench as the 6th man. (may be in order not to hurt his feelings Woodson starts him for say 5 mins and see how it goes.If he interferes with Melo and Chandler’s game then Stat sits as the 6th man.) I differ from you about the slow-footed Jorts. Rather, Jerome Jordan should start along side Chandler as our TWIN TOWERS! a la LA Lakers! He is quick footed enough to move to set screens for Melo when Lebron tries to front Melo, while Chandler guards the rim. Or when Chandler moves out to defend Jerome will be there to protect the rim. Besides, Jerome Jordan can harass Lebron on defense with his quick feet, 9’5″ Standing reach and 7’6″ wing span. The sky is the limit with his physical tools! Besides Melo,THERE IS NO BIGGER PLAYER (6’8″+) WITH BACK-TO-THE-BASKET TURNAROUND FADE AWAY AND RELIABLE HOOK SHOT on the roster! Jerome Jordan is a BETTER IN-THE-PAINT DEFENDER than Jorts and Jeffries, Also he has a better dependable good stroke at least 15′ from the elbow. He has better than 50% FGA and 82%+ FTA. Plus he can rebound, block shots and at least alter some. Like I posted earlier about a week ago on NY Times blog, Jerome Jordan “IS THE X FACTOR–ANOTHER LIN” in waiting, folks!! Like fellow Max Fisher-Cohen remarked JJ “IS Tyson Chandler WITH A JUMP SHOT” PLUS A TURN AROUND HOOK SHOT folks! I am depending on you all smart observers on this page ( Max Fisher-Cohen, Ruruland, Will The Thrill, 2FOR18, Brian Cronin, Matt Smith, John Locke, Owen, The Honorable Cock Jowles, Telegraph Pass– PLUS anybody who truly love the Knicks ) to join me to SCREAM in the ears of the coaching staff, management, Tyson Chandler, Mello and the broadcasters Alan Hann, Kelly Tripuca etc to USE Jerome Jordan NOW! HE IS THE X FACTOR! And this move will scare everybody and can help us win it all this season. Let’s GO Knicks!

    8. Z

      At least last year the refs waited until the end of game 1 to show up. Made it exciting. This year the refs were just too good. They weren’t showing any signs of fatigue, even with the condensed schedule. They put it way early, like you’re supposed to do at home in playoffs. Gotta tip my hat.

    9. Z-man

      My feeling is that the Heat have muddled through the season and couldn’t wait for the playoffs to begin. I used to see that with the Celts, Lakers, Bulls and Pistons during their glory years. The Heat are taking things up a notch and want that title. The question is, will we respond? I know the Shump loss hurts, but we still have a pretty good team and should be able to figure out how to at least be competitive in these remaining games. I agree with d-mar that Chandler was completely out of it, so that will at least get better. Move Fields to the starting lineup, shorten the rotation to have a bench of JR, Novak, Bibby and JJ if he’s healthy.

    10. Z-man

      re: Shump, he’s been tweaking his knees all year, so I wonder how much of what happened was due to a series of little tears seriously weakening the knee to the point that it was only a matter of time. I wish they would do more MRIs on small knee tweaks.

    11. Juany8

      Chandler had arguably the worst statistical game in playoff history last night after being our best player throught the season, and the Knicks got utterly boned by the refs. Losing Shump probably means there’s zero hope of actually winning the series, but it should hopefully be more fun and competitive going forward. At some point there’s only so much bad luck a team can take before they go down (see Chicago Bulls)

    12. Juany8

      Again it bears repeating: Chandler had zero points on 0-2 shooting with 7 turnovers after being the most efficient offensive player in the NBA this year. The Heat simply stopped guarding him on pick and rolls. That and the refs doing their jobs right should allow the Knicks to steal a game or two, especially since on top of everything Lebron and Wade were hitting their ridiculous jumpers that there is no defense for (let’s face it they’re terrible shots) and Chandler wasn’t exactly great on defense either.

    13. BigBlueAL

      Just read BD is a game-time decision because of his back. Chandler didnt practice today which was expected. Lin said his knee didnt respond well to yesterday’s workout and is definitely out of Games 2 and 3 but he is still hoping to be able to play in Game 4.

    14. Nick C.

      In reading and listening to the reports it’s mindbogglingly dishonest how they completely overlook how the game got away from the Knicks. It was a two point game or thereabouts @29 when there must have been a half dozen Knicks possessions ended by whistles while Miami was parading to the line. It must be tough to run an offense if every screen and pick gets whistled. To make matters worse not a hint of disbelief at LeBron’s dramatics. Rant over. It was fun to believe something was possible. Too bad the deck was stacked and now Shrimp is out, Tyson is subpar and Davis has a tweaked back.

    15. Matt Park

      There were lots of ways that Woodson could have adjusted…
      Set a screen on the opposite block to get ‘Melo good position. Get the other big into the high post and let him get the better angle. Run a pick-and-roll to force Battier to hedge and get ‘Melo better position. Run him off a baseline screen to get the ball in the mid-range area… They didn’t do any of these things.

    16. Matt Park

      Nick C.:
      In reading and listening to the reports it’s mindbogglingly dishonest how they completely overlook how the game got away from the Knicks. It was a two point game or thereabouts @29 when there must have been a half dozen Knicks possessions ended by whistles while Miami was parading to the line. It must be tough to run an offense if every screen and pick gets whistled. To make matters worse not a hint of disbelief at LeBron’s dramatics.Rant over. It was fun to believe something was possible. Too bad the deck was stacked and now Shrimp is out, Tyson is subpar and Davis has a tweaked back.

      Yup, the game was at 29 for a while… But the Heat, particularly Lebron, got a lot of dubious calls. Do you remember the flop he pulled on J.R. when the ball fell out of bounds? However, J.R. and Landry certainly didn’t help when they fouled Heat players from behind when they got beat…

    17. JR Sec 112

      yeah, Woodson didnt adjust well. But he’s adjusted ok to the various lineup changes over the last few weeks. Lets hope he adjusts to some things tomorrow.

      Again, I just dont understand all the depression on this board. Its one game. Even if we go down 2-0, we’d get 2 full days of rest for Tyson and would be coming home. If we could take game 3, we might get Lin back by Sunday. Thats unequivocal good news. If we can ride that energy to a win in game 4, we are back to 2-2.

    18. Gideon Zaga

      Yep I blame this loss on Woodson and the refs. Woodson more than the refs, that was some pathetic in game coaching. Actually made me miss Dantoni, what a nightmare or a daymare.

      Matt Park:
      There were lots of ways that Woodson could have adjusted…
      Set a screen on the opposite block to get ‘Melo good position. Get the other big into the high post and let him get the better angle. Run a pick-and-roll to force Battier to hedge and get ‘Melo better position. Run him off a baseline screen to get the ball in the mid-range area… They didn’t do any of these things.

    19. 2FOR18

      Gideon Zaga:
      Yep I blame this loss on Woodson and the refs. Woodson more than the refs, that was some pathetic in game coaching. Actually made me miss Dantoni, what a nightmare or a daymare.

      I almost wish ruru was on the coaching staff. You know he’d be up all night watching tapes and figuring out ways to get melo the ball less than 20 feet from the basket.

    20. Gideon Zaga

      Is this supposed to be funny. I come here to read intellectually inclined ideas about my team not idiotic ones. You can carry on your buffoonery with ruru or whomever you please just leave me and my posts out of that nonsense. Last night was brutal as it is and I’m in recovery.

      2FOR18: I almost wish ruru was on the coaching staff.You know he’d be up all night watching tapes and figuring out ways to get melo the ball less than 20 feet from the basket.

    21. ruruland

      Nick C.:
      In reading and listening to the reports it’s mindbogglingly dishonest how they completely overlook how the game got away from the Knicks. It was a two point game or thereabouts @29 when there must have been a half dozen Knicks possessions ended by whistles while Miami was parading to the line. It must be tough to run an offense if every screen and pick gets whistled. To make matters worse not a hint of disbelief at LeBron’s dramatics.Rant over. It was fun to believe something was possible. Too bad the deck was stacked and now Shrimp is out, Tyson is subpar and Davis has a tweaked back.

      Shrimp?

    22. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, it was all on the referees and woodson… after all, they were the ones who shot 25-70 and committed 25 turnovers, obviously.

      this loss was on the players, if this had been a 100-89 game with a bunch of calls going Miami’s way, I’d agree that the referees killed the game… but losing by 33 points in a playoff game is a pathetic effort.

      I don’t care about +/- numbers normally, but Melo had and incredible -35 last night…

      if the free throw numbers were even, we still would have lost by 11.

    23. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      yeah, it was all on the referees and woodson… after all, they were the ones who shot 25-70 and committed 25 turnovers, obviously.

      this loss was on the players, if this had been a 100-89 game with a bunch of calls going Miami’s way, I’d agree that the referees killed the game… but losing by 33 points in a playoff game is a pathetic effort.

      I don’t care about +/- numbers normally, but Melo had and incredible -35 last night…

      if the free throw numbers were even, we still would have lost by 11.

      I guess I didn’t see where someone wrote that it was all on the refs and Woodson.

      You don’t care about +/- numbers until they show Melo with a really bad number?

    24. 2FOR18

      Gideon Zaga:
      Is this supposed to be funny. I come here to read intellectually inclined ideas about my team not idiotic ones. You can carry on your buffoonery with ruru or whomever you please just leave me and my posts out of that nonsense. Last night was brutal as it is and I’m in recovery.

      Jesus it was a joke. ruru and others made a lot of suggestions yesterday on possible offensive adjustments.

    25. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Gideon Zaga
      April 29, 2012 at 3:24 pm

      Yep I blame this loss on Woodson and the refs. Woodson more than the refs, that was some pathetic in game coaching. Actually made me miss Dantoni, what a nightmare or a daymare.

      “Gideon Zaga
      April 29, 2012 at 3:24 pm

      Yep I blame this loss on Woodson and the refs. Woodson more than the refs, that was some pathetic in game coaching. Actually made me miss Dantoni, what a nightmare or a daymare.”

      here it is.

      and I still don’t care abou plus minus, that’s why I said the loss was on the players, plural, not on Melo himself… I just pointed it out because it’s pretty damn rare to have such a low number.

      oh, by the way, Gallo has 15 points on 5/8 shooting in the beginning of the 3rd against the Lakers, I guess passing on shots with 8 seconds left on the clock must be helping his numbers, right?

    26. Bruno Almeida

      Gasol is incredible, he really has developed a reliable 3 pt shot, I can really see the Lakers getting to the finals with Oklahoma City less than reliable and the Clippers and Grizzlies still with some issues to solve.

    27. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida:

      oh, by the way, Gallo has 15 points on 5/8 shooting in the beginning of the 3rd against the Lakers, I guess passing on shots with 8 seconds left on the clock must be helping his numbers, right?

      he’s -12, being played fairly evenly by Devin Ebanks (!) and they’re getting blown out, let’s hold off on his Hall of Fame induction.

    28. Owen

      Jon – I actually don’t feel bad about my Nuggets bet yet, despite the blow out….

      It’s a coming out party for Bynum, no question….

    29. Juany8

      Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.

    30. ruruland

      Juany8:
      Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.

      Yep. Denver is a great regular season offensive team. And an awful playoff offensive team for just the reasons you provided.

    31. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey: he’s -12, being played fairly evenly by Devin Ebanks (!) and they’re getting blown out, let’s hold off on his Hall of Fame induction.

      plus minus is useless, as I just said… Kobe has been playing pretty badly and he’s +24.

      and I’m sure it’s Gallo’s fault that Lawson is 0-6, McGee is 0-3 and Harrington is 3-10, he keeps passing the ball, what a chump.

    32. ruruland

      2FOR18:
      Lawson is killing Denver.I’ve never seen him play this bad.

      Seriously?

      The transition and semi-transition point opportunities are cut in half (at least) in the playoffs. Moreover, lawson struggles the most against teams with rim protection.

      he can always get where he wants on the floor.

    33. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8:
      Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.

      are you watching the game? Gallo has 15 points, and it’s all because of Al Harrington iso’s?

      Miller has been playing well, sure, but Harrington is a black hole and a pathetic basketball player.

    34. Owen

      “Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.”

      “Yep. Denver is a great regular season offensive team. And an awful playoff offensive team for just the reasons you provided.”

      Whereas when they had Carmelo they were a good offensive team? Which is why they got eliminated in the first round 6 out of 7 years.

      You guys are honestly hilarious….

    35. Bruno Almeida

      the point is, Bynum and Gasol will kill every team without size to match them, and Denver just can’t match up with them.

      the Lakers’ inside passing is murdering the Nuggets… Faried is their best option at the 4, but he is terrible defensively and doesn’t have the size, while Koufos / McGee / Mozgov are all terrible, the 3 together don’t come close to half a Bynum.

    36. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: plus minus is useless, as I just said… Kobe has been playing pretty badly and he’s +24.

      and I’m sure it’s Gallo’s fault that Lawson is 0-6, McGee is 0-3 and Harrington is 3-10, he keeps passing the ball, what a chump.

      Why does Harrington have 4 more shots than Gallo? Is it just because Harrington is a ball hog?

      Gallo is an opportunity scorer — he attempts to score when he is at an advantage. He is incredibly passive when he doesn’t have that advantage — either an open shot off penetration, when the bigs have vacated inside and he can penetrate.

      Those are perfect players to have around guys who create defensive attentio– but Gallo isn’t a guy who attracts defenders.

      Kobe’s numbers look awful but a significant percentage of the Lakers looks have been created by his prescence.

    37. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      “Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.”

      “Yep. Denver is a great regular season offensive team. And an awful playoff offensive team for just the reasons you provided.”

      Whereas when they had Carmelo they were a good offensive team? Which is why they got eliminated in the first round 6 out of 7 years.

      You guys are honestly hilarious….

      this is pathetic… the Nuggets are headed to the exact same place they went to with Melo every year except one, and people keep saying it’s because they don’t have a superstar iso scorer.

      our very own superstar iso scorer shot us out of last night’s game, and were also headed for a very painful first round exit.

    38. Owen

      Credit the Lakers for making the Nuggets play at their pace?

      Does this look like a slow pace?

    39. ruruland

      Owen:
      “Man the Nuggets are a bad offensive team. Pretty much all their bucket come either in transition or from Andre Miller and Al Harrington isos. Bynum is not even having to jump to get all these blocks, Denver is such a bad matchup for LA.”

      “Yep. Denver is a great regular season offensive team. And an awful playoff offensive team for just the reasons you provided.”

      Whereas when they had Carmelo they were a good offensive team? Which is why they got eliminated in the first round 6 out of 7 years.

      You guys are honestly hilarious….

      No, they were a bad offensive team in the playoffs with Melo for many years until they got the floor spacing and shooting to take advantage of the attention Melo created in the half-court.

      they actually played similar to how this team plays (without nearly as much offensive depth, nor a push-the-pace point guard) until Chauncey.

    40. ruruland

      Owen:
      Credit the Lakers for making the Nuggets play at their pace?

      Does this look like a slow pace?

      This is a playoff pace. It’s extremely difficult to run in the playoffs. This happens every year. GK’s always wants to play fasts, but the only time he had success with it was with teams that created pace with defense— this team is terrible defensively.

    41. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Why does Harrington have 4 more shots than Gallo? Is it just because Harrington is a ball hog?

      Gallo is an opportunity scorer — he attempts to score when he is at an advantage. He is incredibly passive when he doesn’t have that advantage — either an open shot off penetration, when the bigs have vacated inside and he can penetrate.

      Those are perfect players to have around guys who create defensive attentio– but Gallo isn’t a guy who attracts defenders.

      Kobe’s numbers look awful but a significant percentage of the Lakers looks have been created by his prescence.

      sorry, but do you really think your description fits AL HARRINGTON? a guy that “attracts attention”? any smart team in the NBA would leave Al Buckets all by himself all game long and watch him shoot his team out of the game 9 times out of 10.

      the Kobe thing is ok, I agree with it, and obviously Gallo is an oportunistic scorer, but what’s the problem with that? I don’t get the part where I said the opposite thing…

      I’m not saying he’s the italian Michael Jordan, just that he’s a very efficient player who’s playing well while his teammates, except Miller and maybe Afflalo and Brewer have been terrible.

    42. 2FOR18

      ruruland: Seriously?

      The transition and semi-transition point opportunities are cut in half (at least) in the playoffs. Moreover, lawson struggles the most against teams with rim protection.

      he can always get where he wants on the floor.

      He’s only penetrated 3 or 4 times and yeah, couldn’t deal with LA’s size and he can’t hit an outside shot and he has more turnovers than assists.

      This game, he’s rarely getting anywhere he wants. I think Sessions has done a good job on him.

    43. Owen

      “they actually played similar to how this team plays (without nearly as much offensive depth, nor a push-the-pace point guard) until Chauncey.”

      Except none of those teams were ranked in the top 5 in offense….

      I think the Nuggets are going to score. It’s the defense that will be the issue. That would be my bet….

    44. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      “they actually played similar to how this team plays (without nearly as much offensive depth, nor a push-the-pace point guard) until Chauncey.”

      Except none of those teams were ranked in the top 5 in offense….

      I think the Nuggets are going to score. It’s the defense that will be the issue. That would be my bet….

      Lawson won’t shoot 0-6 on many games, and they’ll find ways to score, but they’ll lose easily because they can’t possible handle Gasol and Bynum.

      it’s not because they don’t have a superstar iso scorer, that’s obvious.

    45. ruruland

      Owen:
      Yes, 6 out 7 first round exits with six wins in those six series….

      Right. it was a poorly built team. I mean, you can count the series losses to the Wolves when Melo was 19, or the world champion Spurs when Melo was 20… But when you look at the series against the Clippers in ’06– two guys every time and zoning him up…

      That team couldn’t shoot.

      Spurs in ’07– Melo plays great but Iverson lays an absolute egg.

      Melo’s worst playoff series was in ’08 against LA — there is no excuse for his performance in that one— but that’s really been the one exception in his career.

      The one year his team was healthy and had floor spacing, he went to the WCF.

    46. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: Lawson won’t shoot 0-6 on many games, and they’ll find ways to score, but they’ll lose easily because they can’t possible handle Gasol and Bynum.

      it’s not because they don’t have a superstar iso scorer, that’s obvious.

      Uh, so, they build the fastest, best offensive team in the NBA– that’s obviously their strength — yet they’ve scored 63 points through 3 quarters. Why can’t they score now? Shouldn’t that be the area they rely on?

      There’s a huge difference between scoring as a fast-paced team and scoring as half-court team. Melo facilitates half-court offense in the playoffs by creating defensive attention.

    47. ruruland

      Owen:
      “This is a playoff pace.”

      How is this a playoff pace?

      76 possessions is a playoff pace?

      Do you not see a difference between the kinds of shots the Nuggets are getting in semi-transition and the kind they get normally?

      You can’t learn the game from box scores.

    48. Juany8

      Here’s he difference between Al Harrington/Andre Miller’s offensive game and Gallo’s: When the Nuggets are down, they can’t get Gallo the ball and ask him to make a play. He won’t be able to consistently do anything. He has to be set up in the rhythm of the offense, and sometimes the opponent’s defense is blowing up your main offensive sets and you need someone to just be able to make a play. Harrington and Miller are capable of going out there and making those plays, even if they’re not very consistent about it.

      Also, it’s crazy how many Knicks fans seem to prefer rooting for the Nuggets than Melo. The Nuggets are simply not a good team, just because they played great for a third of a shortened season where everyone’s performance seemed essentially random doesn’t mean they ever accomplished anything. The Knicks being good or bad has nothing to do with that, this is not the same team that Melo was on, pretty much everyone is gone (top 5 players of WCF run were Chauncey, JR, Melo, K-Mart, and Nene)

    49. Owen

      Woops, ok, sort of a playoff pace I guess, looks like it’s going to come in league average….

    50. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Uh, so, they build the fastest, best offensive team in the NBA– that’s obviously their strength — yet they’ve scored 63 points through 3 quarters. Why can’t they score now? Shouldn’t that be the area they rely on?

      There’s a huge difference between scoring as a fast-paced team and scoring as half-court team. Melo facilitates half-court offense in the playoffs by creating defensive attention.

      dude, they can’t score because Bynum is an absolute beast who has 8 blocks and 1 billion changed shots because of his presence.

      the Nuggets can’t shoot jumpers, so they have to get every bucket in transition or drives… and Bynum’s presence, together with Gasol, has made that impossible.

      like Owen said, the game has been played at a pretty fast pace, but Bynum has completely dominated so far.

    51. ruruland

      Owen:
      “they actually played similar to how this team plays (without nearly as much offensive depth, nor a push-the-pace point guard) until Chauncey.”

      Except none of those teams were ranked in the top 5 in offense….

      I think the Nuggets are going to score. It’s the defense that will be the issue. That would be my bet….

      The Nuggets offensive efficiency will be down quite a bit from the regular season.

      past teams played fast but were some of the worst open jump shooting teams in the NBA….They defended and ran for layups.

    52. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: Lawson won’t shoot 0-6 on many games, and they’ll find ways to score, but they’ll lose easily because they can’t possible handle Gasol and Bynum.

      it’s not because they don’t have a superstar iso scorer, that’s obvious.

      You don’t need a superstar iso scorer but you do need a player that’s capable of having an impact on every possession. Gallo and Faried are not those players. Freaking Jordan Hill is dominating the Nuggets front line by the way.

    53. Bruno Almeida

      if Artest comes back playing the way he was before the suspension, the Lakers are, in my opinion, the scariest team in the West.

    54. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: dude, they can’t score because Bynum is an absolute beast who has 8 blocks and 1 billion changed shots because of his presence.

      the Nuggets can’t shoot jumpers, so they have to get every bucket in transition or drives… and Bynum’s presence, together with Gasol, has made that impossible.

      like Owen said, the game has been played at a pretty fast pace, but Bynum has completely dominated so far.

      Right, the Lakers have a rim-protector, like many NBA playoff tems have. But look at their regular season games against LA. You’ll notice a difference.

      It’s so obvious that the playoffs are a different game than the regular season.

    55. ruruland

      Juany8: You don’t need a superstar iso scorer but you do need a player that’s capable of having an impact on every possession. Gallo and Faried are not those players. Freaking Jordan Hill is dominating the Nuggets front line by the way.

      That’s right. it doesn’t have to be a post-up guy like Melo, it can be anyone who consistently tilts the defense.

    56. Owen

      The reason we like rooting for Denver is because we liked Gallo and we all wish we had drafted Lawson and Faried….

    57. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: You don’t need a superstar iso scorer but you do need a player that’s capable of having an impact on every possession. Gallo and Faried are not those players. Freaking Jordan Hill is dominating the Nuggets front line by the way.

      and how is that a knock on Gallinari?

      Faried has been terrible, I’ve just said, even though his numbers are good… and the Nuggets centers are all pathetic.

      I agree, the Nuggets don’t have a player who can carry the team for a while, and Gallinari has never been that and will never be… but does that mean he’s not a good player?

      of course it’s better to have LeBron than Gallo, but the fact that he’s not a reliable, superstar level #1 option is a knock on him? really, there are about 5 players in the entire league that are reliable, sure-fire #1 options every game.

    58. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      if Artest comes back playing the way he was before the suspension, the Lakers are, in my opinion, the scariest team in the West.

      Join the bandwagon.

    59. Owen

      And I love Miller. The anti-Iverson.

      We would have had a much better offense this year I we had added him rather than Melo.

    60. ruruland

      Owen:
      The reason we like rooting for Denver is because we liked Gallo and we all wish we had drafted Lawson and Faried….

      I think that’s great. Never had a problem with that part of it.

    61. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: and how is that a knock on Gallinari?

      Faried has been terrible, I’ve just said, even though his numbers are good… and the Nuggets centers are all pathetic.

      I agree, the Nuggets don’t have a player who can carry the team for a while, and Gallinari has never been that and will never be… but does that mean he’s not a good player?

      of course it’s better to have LeBron than Gallo, but the fact that he’s not a reliable, superstar level #1 option is a knock on him? really, there are about 5 players in the entire league that are reliable, sure-fire #1 options every game.

      It’s not a knock on Gallo but it means he’s not better than Melo. Personally I think even $10 million for a non primary option who’s not a great defender is a bit much, but Gallo is certainly a nice option to have.

    62. ruruland

      Owen:
      And I love Miller. The anti-Iverson.

      We would have had a much better offense this year I we had added him rather than Melo.

      lmao

    63. Juany8

      Also, if the Nuggets had gotten half as boned by the refs as the Knicks, they’d be down 30. They actually have 10 more free throws than the Lakers right now and are still down almost 20.

    64. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: and how is that a knock on Gallinari?

      Faried has been terrible, I’ve just said, even though his numbers are good… and the Nuggets centers are all pathetic.

      I agree, the Nuggets don’t have a player who can carry the team for a while, and Gallinari has never been that and will never be… but does that mean he’s not a good player?

      of course it’s better to have LeBron than Gallo, but the fact that he’s not a reliable, superstar level #1 option is a knock on him? really, there are about 5 players in the entire league that are reliable, sure-fire #1 options every game.

      No one’s “knocking” Gallo for fuck’s sake. Simply explaining to stat heads the difference between a great offensive player that creates attention, and a complementary player like Gallo.

    65. ruruland

      Juany8: It’s not a knock on Gallo but it means he’s not better than Melo. Personally I think even $10 million for a non primary option who’s not a great defender is a bit much, but Gallo is certainly a nice option to have.

      Players like Gallo and Melo simply shouldn’t be compared to each other.

    66. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Right, the Lakers have a rim-protector, like many NBA playoff tems have. But look at their regular season games against LA. You’ll notice a difference.

      It’s so obvious that the playoffs are a different game than the regular season.

      right, let’s have a look at them:

      Lakers won the season series 3-1.

      on the first game, Bynum had 29-13, Gasol 17 on 7-10 shooting.

      on the second one, Nuggets win because Kobe was pathetic (6-28), even though Bynum had and 18-16 and Gasol 20-11.

      the third one, Lakers win, Bynum had 22-10 with 3 blocks, Gasol 13-17 and 4 assists.

      the fourth one, Lakers win, Bynum once again dominates with 30-8 with 3 blocks, and Gasol had 14-10 with 5 assists.

      I don’t see how that’s different from what’s happening today… again, just like it happened on every regular season team, Bynum and Gasol dominate Denver and can’t be stopped by Denver’s frontcourt.

      exatcly the same as today.

    67. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: right, let’s have a look at them:

      Lakers won the season series 3-1.

      on the first game, Bynum had 29-13, Gasol 17 on 7-10 shooting.

      on the second one, Nuggets win because Kobe was pathetic (6-28), even though Bynum had and 18-16 and Gasol 20-11.

      the third one, Lakers win, Bynum had 22-10 with 3 blocks, Gasol 13-17 and 4 assists.

      the fourth one, Lakers win, Bynum once again dominates with 30-8 with 3 blocks, and Gasol had 14-10 with 5 assists.

      I don’t see how that’s different from what’s happening today… again, just like it happened on every regular season team, Bynum and Gasol dominate Denver and can’t be stopped by Denver’s frontcourt.

      exatcly the same as today.

      look at the Nuggets offensive efficiency compared to today.

    68. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: No one’s “knocking” Gallo for fuck’s sake. Simply explaining to stat heads the difference between a great offensive player that creates attention, and a complementary player like Gallo.

      everybody knows that, but your fucking great offensive player just shot 3-15 on the most important game so far in the season, so let’s just think for a moment that maybe he’s not the great fucking offensive mastermind you make him to be.

      and look at the Nuggets-Lakers regular season series and the SAME EXACT THING that is happening today, happened on those games.

    69. Owen

      “No one’s “knocking” Gallo for fuck’s sake. Simply explaining to stat heads the difference between a great offensive player that creates attention, and a complementary player like Gallo.”

      You realize Melo was a really really bad offensive player this year right? Other than a hot stretch of 13 games. By any reasonable standard this was a terrible terrible offensive season by him.

      And it was very very hard to see any benefit to having Melo out there. It’s not like our offense was good. It’s not like any players had significant splits with Melo.

      Why are you such a Melo homer? I just don’t get it. Honestly, you are in for a long, disappointing journey if he is the guy you are going to follow.

    70. Juany8

      ruruland: Players like Gallo and Melo simply shouldn’t be compared to each other.

      It’s what happens when people pretend the “SF” position says anything about a player. I actually saw an interesting paper at the MIT Sloan Conference about dividing players into around 15 different positions based on their statistical profiles (positions like stretch 4’s, spot up shooters, heavy shooters, etc.) it’s a much better way to compare players, players like Faried and Duncan should really not be compared to one another just because they play the same position.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: look at the Nuggets offensive efficiency compared to today.

      oh, nice job not answering my point.

      Bynum and Gasol are obviously the difference in the matchup, as they were in the Lakers 3-1 regular season series against the Nuggets, with that one loss coming because super ultra mega fucking superstar scorer Kobe Bryant shot 28 times and made 6 buckets.

    72. Owen

      “Players like Gallo and Melo simply shouldn’t be compared to each other.”

      Why not. Care to back that statement up with anything resembling objective proof.

      Because, as I know you are aware, the stats don’t support you, box score or otherwise.

    73. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: everybody knows that, but your fucking great offensive player just shot 3-15 on the most important game so far in the season, so let’s just think for a moment that maybe he’s not the great fucking offensive mastermind you make him to be.

      and look at the Nuggets-Lakers regular season series and the SAME EXACT THING that is happening today, happened on those games.

      Except that the Nuggets offense is even worse than it was in the four games.

      Melo was getting fronted by arguably the best defensive combination of players in the NBA. Good offensive teams can take advantage of that. Without adjustment and a point guard that can dribble below the 3pt line, it’s tough to do.

      Melo missed some shots he needs to make. He didn’t play well. but he was clearly the sole focus of the best defensive team in the NBA. When the Knicks are healthy, and have a player like Lin who can beat the Heat pay for it, Melo’s prescence will make his team better even when Melo struggles to score.

    74. Bruno Almeida

      if you guys support so much the idea that the presence of guys like Kobe and Melo are the reason their teammates are good and have space to hit open shots, then why won’t you admit that when the teams lose, it’s also these guys fault?

      when Kobe shoots 28 times and hits 6 shots, or Melo shots 15 and makes 3, how come it’s not their fault that the teams have lost?

    75. ruruland

      Owen:
      “Players like Gallo and Melo simply shouldn’t be compared to each other.”

      Why not. Care to back that statement up with anything resembling objective proof.

      Because, as I know you are aware, the stats don’t support you, box score or otherwise.

      The stats haven’t developed quite yet to be able to distinguish what’s is so ridiculously obvious to the eye.

    76. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      if you guys support so much the idea that the presence of guys like Kobe and Melo are the reason their teammates are good and have space to hit open shots, then why won’t you admit that when the teams lose, it’s also these guys fault?

      when Kobe shoots 28 times and hits 6 shots, or Melo shots 15 and makes 3, how come it’s not their fault that the teams have lost?

      well , again, there’s context there you’re missing,too. Look, when Kobe shots 28 times when he has two great post-ups options, that’s quite a bit different than Melo posting up and taking 15 shots (4 of which came on the same possession). when the Knicks don’t have the point guard to develop a second dimension of the half-court offense.

    77. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Except that the Nuggets offense is even worse than it was in the four games.

      Melo was getting fronted by arguably the best defensive combination of players in the NBA. Good offensive teams can take advantage of that. Without adjustment and a point guard that can dribble below the 3pt line, it’s tough to do.

      Melo missed some shots he needs to make. He didn’t play well. but he was clearly the sole focus of the best defensive team in the NBA. When the Knicks are healthy, and have a player like Lin who can beat the Heat pay for it, Melo’s prescence will make his team better even when Melo struggles to score.

      it is worse today, but with the offense playing well THEY STILL wouldn’t be able to deal with Bynum and Gasol, and even Kobe, who has been playing much better now in the game.

      so, when is Melo’s incredible and truly hyper awesome presence going to make his team a real contender?

      because LeBron’s presence has made his team a true contender already…

    78. Juany8

      Owen:
      “Players like Gallo and Melo simply shouldn’t be compared to each other.”

      Why not. Care to back that statement up with anything resembling objective proof.

      Because, as I know you are aware, the stats don’t support you, box score or otherwise.

      What stats? Usage rate says Melo is allowed a far bigger level of offensive responsibility than Gallo. There’s no stat for it yet, but if you could keep track of how much Melo and Gallo were holding on to the ball, it would be obvious Melo is allowed to handle it much more often. Melo clearly draws far more double teams than Gallo, and just because only assists are kept track of in the box score doesn’t mean double teams aren’t just as important. The stats that would help make a case for Melo haven’t been developed publically either because people like Berri and Hollinger are too lazy or too proud, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist at all.

    79. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: oh, nice job not answering my point.

      Bynum and Gasol are obviously the difference in the matchup, as they were in the Lakers 3-1 regular season series against the Nuggets, with that one loss coming because super ultra mega fucking superstar scorer Kobe Bryant shot 28 times and made 6 buckets.

      Uh, yeah, that’s why I bet Owen that LA would beat Denver– they are a much better team. But it doesn’t change the fact that scoring the way Denver scores gets a lot harder in the post-season.

    80. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: well , again, there’s context there you’re missing,too. Look, when Kobe shots 28 times when he has two great post-ups options, that’s quite a bit different than Melo posting up and taking 15 shots (4 of which came on the same possession). when the Knicks don’t have the point guard to develop a second dimension of the half-court offense.

      if having a PG is the difference, Kobe too didn’t have a PG, Fisher and Blake were starting for god’s sake, they’re even worse than Baron Davis.

      and Amare was supposed to be the guy who offered that alternative that Bynum and Gasol provide for LA, but he’s terrible and I can’t stand even going into that subject.

    81. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: it is worse today, but with the offense playing well THEY STILL wouldn’t be able to deal with Bynum and Gasol, and even Kobe, who has been playing much better now in the game.

      so, when is Melo’s incredible and truly hyper awesome presence going to make his team a real contender?

      because LeBron’s presence has made his team a true contender already…

      Would you take Chris Paul over Melo? Cause he’s only ever won 1 playoff series and got blown out by 57 by a certain Nuggets team when Chandler and David West were on the team. And it’s not like the Hornets have been running out great offenses over the years (Clippers were certainly better, but they’re still probably gonna lose in the first round)

    82. Owen

      Ahh, the classic, I don’t even need to argue this because it can’t be argued.

      Which translates to, I am not going to argue it because I know there is basically no objective evidence supporting it.

      You understand how bad he was this season right? Can we agree that he put up one of the worst seasons ever by a guy considered a top 10 NBA player (by some).

      ruruland: The stats haven’t developed quite yet to be able to distinguish what’s is so ridiculously obvious to the eye.

    83. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: it is worse today, but with the offense playing well THEY STILL wouldn’t be able to deal with Bynum and Gasol, and even Kobe, who has been playing much better now in the game.

      so, when is Melo’s incredible and truly hyper awesome presence going to make his team a real contender?

      because LeBron’s presence has made his team a true contender already…

      Well, obviously Lebron is one of the five-10 greatest players of all-time, even though neither he nor Melo have won an NBA championship.
      Melo is not as good as Lebron of course. However, Lebron has always had floor spacing, and 3pt shooting.

      In fact, there’s essentially a 1-1 correlation between Lebron’s scoring efficiency and his teammates ability to hit open jump shots.

    84. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ahh, the classic, I don’t even need to argue this because it can’t be argued.

      Which translates to, I am not going to argue it because I know there is basically no objective evidence supporting it.

      You understand how bad he was this season right? Can we agree that he put up one of the worst seasons ever by a guy considered a top 10 NBA player (by some).

      160 ws?

      Kobe was worse this year (or jut about). Look, hampered by injuries and being miscast in the offense without the proper pieces around him to create space. Yes, he really struggled in a year where offense was way down.

      I think he’ll put up career efficiency with Lin and some good pieces around them….So, it’s wait and see.

    85. Owen

      “What stats? Usage rate says Melo is allowed a far bigger level of offensive responsibility than Gallo. There’s no stat for it yet, but if you could keep track of how much Melo and Gallo were holding on to the ball, it would be obvious Melo is allowed to handle it much more often.”

      The adjusted and statistical plus minus showing that Gallo wad about a 20% edge at the time of the trade.

      And the box score data, which basically was a wash.

      Melo did a lot of holding the ball this year. And our offense sucked.

      Ruruland – Since you know Melo, pass a message to him. Tell him if he takes a 10 million per year pay cut so his salary is in line with his production, I won’t criticize him anymore.

    86. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: Would you take Chris Paul over Melo? Cause he’s only ever won 1 playoff series and got blown out by 57 by a certain Nuggets team when Chandler and David West were on the team. And it’s not like the Hornets have been running out great offenses over the years (Clippers were certainly better, but they’re still probably gonna lose in the first round)

      surely, Paul’s teams were always terrible… Chandler wasn’t that good, West was always overrated and the rest of the team was pathetic, they STARTED freaking Morris Peterson for god’s sake.

      now Paul has a good team, let’s see what happens… if he can’t lead this Clippers team at least out of the 1st round, then I’ll start rethinking my arguments.

    87. Spree8nyk8

      Something about yesterdays game that kind of bothered me, maybe someone else can answer this but they called an offensive flagrant foul on Chandler yesterday. On an offensive foul you don’t even get free throws, so how can they call an offensive foul and give two shots AND the ball when you don’t even have the ball to begin with? I have never even heard of that before.

      They shouldn’t give you free throws when you wouldn’t have gotten them. Or they shouldn’t give both at least. I mean fuck dude these guys got like 2 ft’s, the ball, seasons passes to six flags, and an early viewing of the Avengers off of one play.

    88. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: if having a PG is the difference, Kobe too didn’t have a PG, Fisher and Blake were starting for god’s sake, they’re even worse than Baron Davis.

      and Amare was supposed to be the guy who offered that alternative that Bynum and Gasol provide for LA, but he’s terrible and I can’t stand even going into that subject.

      C’mon. Amar’e is dependent on point guard play to be effective.

      The key is that Kobe had two dominant inside players he could play off if he so chose.

      The offense will get so much more efficient with Lin — not so much because Lin is an amazing player– though I think he’s very good, but that the fact that he allows everything else to reach a balance.

    89. afrikan_hermis

      @16(Matt), @18(JR) this is part of what I was talking about @8. Coach Woodson failed to make proper substitutions, and this is not the first time! The last game with Indiana after we’ve beaten them back to back AND THE CRUCIAL LOSS to Cleveland are prime examples–playing small ball with Jeffries at center and no real firepower in front. NO WAY Woodson should have any substitutions on the floor without at least Mello OR Tyson OR Stat on the floor while a bona fide athletic big with defense,rebounding, shot blocking, great back to the basket turn around smooth OFFENSIVE stroke in Jerome Jordan sits.
      BTW guys, what happened to the ” FREE JEROME JORDAN MOVEMENT”??
      Ruru, WTT, Max Fisher-Cohen, 2FOR18, Brian Cronin, Matt Smith, John Locke, Telegraph Pass, Cock Jowles, can u help make noise for Jerome Jordan? IMO he IS the X FACTOR the coaching staff surprisingly is overlooking!
      This is what Ruru recently posted about JJ: ” The fluidity of his offensive movement is extremely impressive, especially above the waist in setting up his shot movement. His release is decent, too. You can’t sniff his shot. I mean the more I watch and learn, WOW, he could be a star actually. ” After which Brian Cronin comments: ” BTW I really really REALLY(his bold face emphasis) don’t get why Jordan gets absolutely zero burn from either D’antoni or Woodson. “

    90. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: surely, Paul’s teams were always terrible… Chandler wasn’t that good, West was always overrated and the rest of the team was pathetic, they STARTED freaking Morris Peterson for god’s sake.

      now Paul has a good team, let’s see what happens… if he can’t lead this Clippers team at least out of the 1st round, then I’ll start rethinking my arguments.

      Look, Chris Paul is better than Melo, but Melo’s had as bad or worse playoff teams.

    91. Bruno Almeida

      and about LeBron, he has MARIO CHALMERS as his starting PG, Bosh is the RuPaul of big men and is not definitely not worthy of having the same salary and status of him and Wade, and Miller is the only one capable of hitting outside shots reliably… his centers are JOEL ANTHONY AND RONNY TURIAF…

      Battier and Cole have been terrible, while James Jones barely plays… they do hit outside shots with Miller, Chalmers and Jones, but 99% of those shots are WIDE OPEN, because LeBron and Wade create those shots for these guys, while we can’t say the same for our shooters.

      the Knicks also have plenty of outside shooting, and neither team has a PG who does what you, ruruland, says it’s necessary… so what’s the difference?

    92. Owen

      “Kobe was worse this year (or jut about).”

      That’s actually the best point you have made this year.

    93. 2FOR18

      Bruno Almeida: surely, Paul’s teams were always terrible… Chandler wasn’t that good, West was always overrated and the rest of the team was pathetic, they STARTED freaking Morris Peterson for god’s sake.

      now Paul has a good team, let’s see what happens… if he can’t lead this Clippers team at least out of the 1st round, then I’ll start rethinking my arguments.

      Memphis has the better team. If LA somehow wins this then Paul will have to be otherworldly great. Foye, Mo Williams, old Caron Butler, Blake and Jordan are not a great supporting cast.

    94. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: C’mon. Amar’e is dependent on point guard play to be effective.

      The key is that Kobe had two dominant inside players he could play off if he so chose.

      The offense will get so much more efficient with Lin — not so much because Lin is an amazing player– though I think he’s very good, but that the fact that he allows everything else to reach a balance.

      the fact is: Amare is much, much worse than Gasol and Bynum… the very fact that both Gasol and Bynum were very effective with Derek Fisher on a wheelchair as the PG proves that without a shadow of a doubt to me, imo.

    95. Bruno Almeida

      2FOR18: Memphis has the better team.If LA somehow wins this then Paul will have to be otherworldly great. Foye, Mo Williams, old Caron Butler, Blake and Jordan are not a great supporting cast.

      I think you underestimate a guy that’s averaging a 21/11 with decent shooting numbers… even though Blake’s not a very good defender, he’s stil better than Randolph and Gasol.

      I agree that Memphis probably has the better team, but the entire pro-Melo argument isn’t based around the “fact” that you need a superstar to carry your team when things are rough?

      the Clippers have Paul, while Memphis has noone…

    96. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: the fact is: Amare is much, much worse than Gasol and Bynum… the very fact that both Gasol and Bynum were very effective with Derek Fisher on a wheelchair as the PG proves that without a shadow of a doubt to me, imo.

      Gasol and Bynum are better of course. But Amar’e is very close when he has a point guard that gets him in the right spots. I could see him being more efficient than both of them with Lin.

      They’re again, much different players. But obviously the value of guys like Bynum and Gasol — given their ability to create their own offense, create attention, pass– is much greater than Amar’e — before we even talk defense.

    97. 2FOR18

      Bruno Almeida: I think you underestimate a guy that’s averaging a 21/11 with decent shooting numbers… even though Blake’s not a very good defender, he’s stil better than Randolph and Gasol.

      I agree that Memphis probably has the better team, but the entire pro-Melo argument isn’t based around the “fact” that you need a superstar to carry your team when things are rough?

      the Clippers have Paul, while Memphis has noone…

      I think you’re underestimating Memphis, as well as Randolph and Gasol. Should be a fun series.

    98. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: and about LeBron, he has MARIO CHALMERS as his starting PG, Bosh is the RuPaul of big men and is not definitely not worthy of having the same salary and status of him and Wade, and Miller is the only one capable of hitting outside shots reliably… his centers are JOEL ANTHONY AND RONNY TURIAF…Battier and Cole have been terrible, while James Jones barely plays… they do hit outside shots with Miller, Chalmers and Jones, but 99% of those shots are WIDE OPEN, because LeBron and Wade create those shots for these guys, while we can’t say the same for our shooters.the Knicks also have plenty of outside shooting, and neither team has a PG who does what you, ruruland, says it’s necessary… so what’s the difference?

      Well, Wade makes a bit of a difference, no?

      Wade and Lebron can both function as point guards — that makes a difference.

      And the Heat have been much better from 3 than NY. Knicks have two players aroundMelo that can shoot– JR and Novak–neither of which start with Melo or play more than 30 minutes.

      They’ve onlycombined to play about 12 minutes with Melo this year, in fact. Outwside of them and Melo, the Knicks are the worst shooting team in the NBA– Miami has much more depth.

    99. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: I think you underestimate a guy that’s averaging a 21/11 with decent shooting numbers… even though Blake’s not a very good defender, he’s stil better than Randolph and Gasol.

      I agree that Memphis probably has the better team, but the entire pro-Melo argument isn’t based around the “fact” that you need a superstar to carry your team when things are rough?

      the Clippers have Paul, while Memphis has noone…

      The whole “superstar” argument is overrated, the only player in the league capable of carrying mediocre teammates to 55+ wins is Lebron period. Dwyane Wade lost in the first round several times before Lebron came, Tyson Chandler was swept by the Magic when he was on the Hornets, Kobe and Garnett couldn’t do shit with guys like Smush Parker, etc. Seriously, Kevin Love is supposedly a superstar and his team can’t sniff the playoffs because a rookie is injured?

    100. Juany8

      I meant Chandler was swept when he was on the Bobcats, and he had Gerald Wallace, who advanced stats loved that year, I think even more than Melo.

    101. ruruland

      Juany8: The whole “superstar” argument is overrated, the only player in the league capable of carrying mediocre teammates to 55+ wins is Lebron period. Dwyane Wade lost in the first round several times before Lebron came, Tyson Chandler was swept by the Magic when he was on the Hornets, Kobe and Garnett couldn’t do shit with guys like Smush Parker, etc. Seriously, Kevin Love is supposedly a superstar and his team can’t sniff the playoffs because a rookie is injured?

      That should hopefully end the conversation.

    102. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: The whole “superstar” argument is overrated, the only player in the league capable of carrying mediocre teammates to 55+ wins is Lebron period. Dwyane Wade lost in the first round several times before Lebron came, Tyson Chandler was swept by the Magic when he was on the Hornets, Kobe and Garnett couldn’t do shit with guys like Smush Parker, etc. Seriously, Kevin Love is supposedly a superstar and his team can’t sniff the playoffs because a rookie is injured?

      and so Is Carmelo.

      and ruruland, if Bynum and Gasol are this effective they way they are playing, and Amare would be close to them with a good PG… what would happen if Bynum and Gasol played with a good PG, let’s say, Steve Nash?

      the pick and roll with Nash / Gasol would be the most unguardable play in the entire NBA, imo.

    103. Bruno Almeida

      and if the superstar argument is overrated, then why the hell do we pay 20+ million to two “superstars”, one who’s about as useless as a max player can be right now?

    104. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: and so Is Carmelo.

      and ruruland, if Bynum and Gasol are this effective they way they are playing, and Amare would be close to them with a good PG… what would happen if Bynum and Gasol played with a good PG, let’s say, Steve Nash?

      the pick and roll with Nash / Gasol would be the most unguardable play in the entire NBA, imo.

      Wait is anyone arguing that Stat is close to Bynum and Gasol? Stat is certainly capable of scoring as efficiently as them (or has been able to) but the defense/passing/rebounding is just totally lacking in comparison. Bynum is better than anyone on this team at this point, even Gasol is close to Chandler and Melo (he’s a little older and simply hasn’t played as well as during those Finals runs, he was clearly better then)

    105. ruruland

      Do people realize that with the Knicks down 30-29 in the second quarter, Miami received 15 STRAIGHT CALLS (15 fouls on the Knicks, 0 on the HEat) resulting in 18 free throws and 6 turnovers!!!!!!!!

      That’s unheard of. I didn’t realize it was that bad. I have a hard time believing that has ever happened before.

      http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=320428014&period=2

      Someone needs to make a post about this somewhere.

    106. MSA

      Wasn´t Melo the suposed lebron killer?

      Fuck, the guy was manhandle by a 34 yo Shane Battier…

    107. Owen

      Seriously….

      Bruno Almeida:
      and if the superstar argument is overrated, then why the hell do we pay 20+ million to two “superstars”, one who’s about as useless as a max player can be right now?

      Wade is also the guy who has actually done what you have been promising all year that Melo is capable of, which is win a championship basically singlehandedly….

      Sure he had Shaq, but Shaq wasn’t Shaq anymore. And the third best player on that team was Udonis Haslem.

      If Melo actually puts up the numbers you claim he is capable of, this argument will end. And I hope he starts now. Because honestly, I want Melo to be great. He just isn’t….

    108. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: and so Is Carmelo.and ruruland, if Bynum and Gasol are this effective they way they are playing, and Amare would be close to them with a good PG… what would happen if Bynum and Gasol played with a good PG, let’s say, Steve Nash?the pick and roll with Nash / Gasol would be the most unguardable play in the entire NBA, imo.

      Gasol isn’t all that great in the pnr — mean he’s ok. Both Gasol and Bynum are best scoring with the ball in their hands — they are far too upright to be effective pnr players.

      Amar’e is one of the greatest pnr finishers of all-time.

    109. 2FOR18

      Juany8: The whole “superstar” argument is overrated, the only player in the league capable of carrying mediocre teammates to 55+ wins is Lebron period. Dwyane Wade lost in the first round several times before Lebron came, Tyson Chandler was swept by the Magic when he was on the Hornets, Kobe and Garnett couldn’t do shit with guys like Smush Parker, etc. Seriously, Kevin Love is supposedly a superstar and his team can’t sniff the playoffs because a rookie is injured?

      I guess leBron is in his own tier. Then there’s a 2nd tier of Wade, Howard and Paul. Then I think there are about 20 players you can rank in almost any way based on each person’s biases.

    110. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida:
      and if the superstar argument is overrated, then why the hell do we pay 20+ million to two “superstars”, one who’s about as useless as a max player can be right now?

      Because in an open Market Lebron would easily be worth the entire salary cap. Melo is more properly valued at the 17 million he gets (seriously, if guys like David Lee and Boozer are getting near max contracts Melo and Amar’e are gonna get them too). Amar’e was coming off a pretty fantastic playoff stretch when the team acquired him and played like a max player his first year, and I guarantee you Phoenix wishes they had payed him instead of spending that money on several role players.

    111. ruruland

      Owen: Seriously….Wade is also the guy who has actually done what you have been promising all year that Melo is capable of, which is win a championship basically singlehandedly….Sure he had Shaq, but Shaq wasn’t Shaq anymore. And the third best player on that team was Udonis Haslem.If Melo actually puts up the numbers you claim he is capable of, this argument will end. And I hope he starts now. Because honestly, I want Melo to be great. He just isn’t….

      Shaq wasn’t Shaq anymore? You better check that. That Shaq would have cleary been the best player Melo’s ever played with.

      When have I ever said Melo can lead the Knicks to an NBA championship by himself? Strawman.

      I’ve always said that Melo can be the focal point of an NBA championship-caliber offense.

    112. johnlocke

      me too. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Lakers there.

      Bruno Almeida:
      Gasol is incredible, he really has developed a reliable 3 pt shot, I can really see the Lakers getting to the finals with Oklahoma City less than reliable and the Clippers and Grizzlies still with some issues to solve.

    113. Juany8

      2FOR18: I guess leBron is in his own tier. Then there’s a 2nd tier ofWade, Howard and Paul.Then I think there are about 20 players you can rank in almost any way based on each person’s biases.

      Honestly, that might be the most apt way to put the whole argument. The truth is that depending on what your team needs several players after those guys are about equally valuable. The only thing is that I would put Bynum up there, maybe even ahead of Paul, who’s too small to have a consistent offensive impact.

    114. ruruland

      MSA: Wasn´t Melo the suposed lebron killer?Fuck, the guy was manhandle by a 34 yo Shane Battier…

      Somehow I have the feeling you won’t be around when Melo plays well and the Knicks win, kind of like April.

    115. afrikan_hermis

      Bruno Almeida: Lawson won’t shoot 0-6 on many games, and they’ll find ways to score, but they’ll lose easily because they can’t possible handle Gasol and Bynum.

      it’s not because they don’t have a superstar iso scorer, that’s obvious.

      That’s why I am crying for Jerome Jordan to be paired with Tyson Chandler so we can have our own TWIN TOWERS a la LA. Then Mello will be unstoppable!!!

    116. Owen

      I might put Love in there in tier 2.5, but that’s about right….

      2FOR18: I guess leBron is in his own tier. Then there’s a 2nd tier ofWade, Howard and Paul.Then I think there are about 20 players you can rank in almost any way based on each person’s biases.

    117. Juany8

      ruruland: Shaq wasn’t Shaq anymore? You better check that. That Shaq would have cleary been the best player Melo’s ever played with.

      When have I ever said Melo can lead the Knicks to an NBA championship by himself? Strawman.

      I’ve always said that Melo can be the focal point of an NBA championship-caliber offense.

      That team also had Mourning and Jason Williams, it certainly wasn’t a total one man show, although he did put up an all time performance. And again, I don’t think anyone would say Melo is as good as Wade

    118. ruruland

      Owen: I might put Love in there, but that’s about right….

      And I agree, too. That’s not what we bicker about.

      You don’t put Melo into that tier of 20, not even close it would seem.

    119. Owen

      MSA – Were you there when Melo led us to that win in Cleveland against a squad with it’s two best players out? The win that got us into the sixth spot and into a first round matchup with the Pacers….

      Melo posted an epic 5-13 with 4 turnovers and a rebound. It was awesome….

      ruruland: Somehow I have the feeling you won’t be around when Melo plays well and the Knicks win, kind of like April.

    120. ruruland

      afrikan_hermis: That’s why I am crying for Jerome Jordan to be paired with Tyson Chandler so we can have our own TWIN TOWERS a la LA. Then Mello will be unstoppable!!!

      I’m with you, man.

      But you don’t throw a guy into the fire in the playoffs. We won’t know who JJ is until next season, hopefully.

    121. Juany8

      The Lakers are actually a prime example of the difference a solid PG can make. They were pretty mediocre all year until they were gifted Ramon Sessions, who is a massive upgrade over Fisher. Main reason their season numbers look pretty bad, early in the year their offense was the same as the Knicks’ during their 8-15 stretch. Simply having a guy that can run the floor, stay with quick guards, and get into the lane makes a pretty significant difference for a team, it’s just that most teams actually have one or more of those players on a team

    122. ruruland

      Juany8: The Lakers are actually a prime example of the difference a solid PG can make. They were pretty mediocre all year until they were gifted Ramon Sessions, who is a massive upgrade over Fisher. Main reason their season numbers look pretty bad, early in the year their offense was the same as the Knicks’ during their 8-15 stretch. Simply having a guy that can run the floor, stay with quick guards, and get into the lane makes a pretty significant difference for a team, it’s just that most teams actually have one or more of those players on a team

      this

    123. Owen

      I would have to think about it. He certainly wasn’t a top 25 player. I would say he is firmly in the 30-40 range, depending on how hard he is trying…..

      ruruland: And I agree, too. That’s not what we bicker about.

      You don’t put Melo into that tier of 20, not even close it would seem.

    124. ruruland

      Owen: I would have to think about it. He certainly wasn’t a top 25 player. I would say he is firmly in the 30-40 range, depending on how hard he is trying…..

      So Gallo is in the 25 range. Lawson, too, obviously since you prefer him over Melo. ANderson 25-30 range? Clearly Faried is in the top 25-30 range, oh, and Andre Miller too.

      How many other Nuggets are there (of guys you’ve already admitted you believe are better than Melo)?

      Four top 30-40 players (at least). Nuggets are loaded.

    125. cgreene

      Jeez this argument is so circular. The Nuggets are not good. The Knicks are not going anywhere with the injuries and probably wouldn’t have beat the Heat anyway. Melo is far and away the best all around player on both teams and Tyson is the second best. The Knicks are better than the Nuggets. Anyone who has ever watched 100 or more games of basketball can see this. The issue is that the Knicks are not yet close to championship caliber. There is a chance that next year they will be. There is not that chance for the Nuggets. No way I would rather have Faried over Shumpert, Owen. So you can count me out of that “we”. Love to have Lawson but I wouldn’t trade Melo for Gallo straight up. Stats simply cannot capture the nuances of the difference between types of players in the NBA. I am no Melo apologist but yesterday’s 3-15 is a heck of a lot different that going say 6-30. Melo was moving the ball. He was rebounding as well. Tyson was sick. Amare was in foul trouble. The refs were paid off. Tomorrow is another day.

    126. Owen

      Wait, so if you replace a bad player with a good player, you will improve?

      That’s genius….

      He didn’t help the Lakers bigs much you’ll notice though. Bynum was much better with him on the bench and Gasol was exactly the same….

      Juany8:
      The Lakers are actually a prime example of the difference a solid PG can make. They were pretty mediocre all year until they were gifted Ramon Sessions, who is a massive upgrade over Fisher. Main reason their season numbers look pretty bad, early in the year their offense was the same as the Knicks’ during their 8-15 stretch. Simply having a guy that can run the floor, stay with quick guards, and get into the lane makes a pretty significant difference for a team, it’s just that most teams actually have one or more of those players on a team

    127. MSA

      ruruland: Somehow I have the feeling you won’t be around when Melo plays well and the Knicks win, kind of like April.

      I don’t post every single game and day as you already realized…

      And I was right here rooting for him.

      My point is that the talk before the game that “Melo always play well against Lebron and they cancel each other” was just ridiculous.

    128. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: Because in an open Market Lebron would easily be worth the entire salary cap. Melo is more properly valued at the 17 million he gets (seriously, if guys like David Lee and Boozer are getting near max contracts Melo and Amar’e are gonna get them too). Amar’e was coming off a pretty fantastic playoff stretch when the team acquired him and played like a max player his first year, and I guarantee you Phoenix wishes they had payed him instead of spending that money on several role players.

      again the open market discussion.

      what’s the point, the NBA IS NOT an open market… which means that teams that get true superstars for the max contract are ok, and the ones who get “superstars” for the same price are screwed.

      guess in which position are we?

    129. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Wait, so if you replace a bad player with a good player, you will improve?

      That’s genius….

      He didn’t help the Lakers bigs much you’ll notice though. Bynum was much better with him on the bench and Gasol was exactly the same….

      this.

      Bynum and Gasol were just as effective with Fisher as they are now with Sessions, but obviously the Lakers team as a whole is better because Sessions is a much better player.

      the same wouldn’t happen with Amare, that’s my argument.

    130. d-mar

      Owen:
      MSA – Were you there when Melo led us to that win in Cleveland against a squad with it’s two best players out? The win that got us into the sixth spot and into a first round matchup with the Pacers….

      Melo posted an epic 5-13 with 4 turnovers and a rebound. It was awesome….

      Owen, I generally respect your posts, but this one is just plain dumb. Melo carried the Knicks on his back the whole month of April, and you highlight his one off game to criticize him? C’mon man,.

    131. MSA

      I dont really care about Melo.

      Even with this horrible season he can be at least average.

      The real money that has been thrown in the garbage every single game is Amare´s salary.

      As charismatic as he can be, nowdays he is worthless.

    132. Bruno Almeida

      by the way, I always considered Sessions to be criminally overrated and was pushing hard for New York to try and get him, but LA stole him for nothing.

    133. Bruno Almeida

      Bruno Almeida:
      by the way, I always considered Sessions to be criminally overrated and was pushing hard for New York to try and get him, but LA stole him for nothing.

      sorry, “underrated” and not “overrated”.

    134. ruruland

      MSA: I don’t post every single game and day as you already realized…And I was right here rooting for him.My point is that the talk before the game that “Melo always play well against Lebron and they cancel each other” was just ridiculous.

      It’s early in the series.

    135. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: this.Bynum and Gasol were just as effective with Fisher as they are now with Sessions, but obviously the Lakers team as a whole is better because Sessions is a much better player.the same wouldn’t happen with Amare, that’s my argument.

      You’re starting to catch on with what we’re saying.

    136. jon abbey

      I’m surprised Owen has so much time to post while he’s picketing the NBA office in midtown for giving Melo the Eastern Conference Player of the Month award for April. :)

    137. ruruland

      Owen: Wait, so if you replace a bad player with a good player, you will improve? That’s genius….He didn’t help the Lakers bigs much you’ll notice though. Bynum was much better with him on the bench and Gasol was exactly the same….

      Because Gasol and Bynum aren’t point-guard reliant players.

      But, a point guard does a lot more than that — the difference in the Lakers improvement was larger than the difference between Fisher and Sessions TS%– thought that has obviously helped, too.

    138. ruruland

      jon abbey: I’m surprised Owen has so much time to post while he’s picketing the NBA office in midtown for giving Melo the Eastern Conference Player of the Month award for April. :)

      haha

    139. Owen

      d-mar – Different things make people angry. For me it’s recency bias.

      It was a cheap shot, but it takes something to get Ruruland to focus on the fact that for 75% of this season Melo was pretty bad, and that his tendency to take games off has hurt us really really badly this year.

      Ultimately, if he really is a top 10 player in the game, it’s pretty embarrassing that he barely got his team into the playoffs, only got a seventh seed, and was clearly the second best player on this team.

      But yeah, a bit of cheap shot, I agree, I will try to just keep it snarky rather than downright churlish….

    140. 2FOR18

      Juany8: Because in an open Market Lebron would easily be worth the entire salary cap. Melo is more properly valued at the 17 million he gets (seriously, if guys like David Lee and Boozer are getting near max contracts Melo and Amar’e are gonna get them too). Amar’e was coming off a pretty fantastic playoff stretch when the team acquired him and played like a max player his first year, and I guarantee you Phoenix wishes they had payed him instead of spending that money on several role players.

      You’re clearly right. But as a long time Knick fan, it’s a big frustration that our “max” players are always the 2nd or 3rd or 4th tier guys. Just once I’d like to have a real “max” type player on this team. And this is the root of all of the disappointment of the melo deal. Knicks fans are tired of never having the best player in a playoff series. Even when we had Ewing he was rarely the best player on the court.

    141. Owen

      That is funny. Keep me in line Jon, please, because Melo is driving me over the edge….

      jon abbey:
      I’m surprised Owen has so much time to post while he’s picketing the NBA office in midtown for giving Melo the Eastern Conference Player of the Month award for April. :)

    142. d-mar

      Would like to see the Hawks come out and smack the Celtics around tonight, salvage a little bit from this depressing weekend.

    143. Owen

      Amen, Why can’t we, for once, actually hire a bunch of guys with great statistics? Because we have tried the other approach for a while.

      2FOR18: You’re clearly right.But as a long time Knick fan, it’s a big frustration that our “max” players are always the 2nd or 3rd or 4th tier guys.Just once I’d like to have a real “max” type player on this team.And this is the root of all of the disappointment of the melo deal.Knicks fans are tired of never having the best player in a playoff series. Even when we had Ewing he was rarely the best player on the court.

    144. ruruland

      Owen: Amen, Why can’t we, for once, actually hire a bunch of guys with great statistics? Because we have tried the other approach for a while.

      Well, that’s why you’re a nuggets fan, right?

      4 of the top 30 players in the NBA (statistically)

    145. johnlocke

      Amare may be outta here by the trade deadline next year, depending on how the rest of this series and first half of next year goes. Not sure what assets we trade him for though.
      Bynum has a much greater impact on both ends and Gasol is more versatile offensively…the Lakers having both those guys is HUGE…esp now that they can go to Bynum more often offensively compared to last year.

      ruruland: Gasol and Bynum are better of course. But Amar’e is very close when he has a point guard that gets him in the right spots. I could see him being more efficient than both of them with Lin.

      They’re again, much different players. But obviously the value of guys like Bynum and Gasol — given their ability to create their own offense, create attention, pass– is much greater than Amar’e — before we even talk defense.

      Bruno Almeida: orse this year (or jut about). Look, hampered by injuries and being miscast in the offense without the proper pieces around him to create space. Yes, he really struggled in a year where offense was way down.
      I think he’ll put up career efficiency with Lin and some good pieces around them….So, it’s wait and see.
        

    146. jon abbey

      I’d like to note again that we drafted Channing Frye directly ahead of Bynum.

      and GO HAWKS!

    147. Owen

      Well, Lawson was in the top 30 in Win Shares. But that’s it. It was a team effort….

      ruruland: Well, that’s why you’re a nuggets fan, right?

      4 of the top 30 players in the NBA (statistically)

    148. 2FOR18

      jon abbey:
      I’d like to note again that we drafted Channing Frye directly ahead of Bynum.

      and GO HAWKS!

      No biggie. We would have sent Bynum to the Denver anyway in the melo deal.

    149. johnlocke

      Owen – I’m curious. I think we’ve run the Melo is not that great of a player debate statistically into the ground. Agreed — this year he was not very good…had been good recently until last game and has been good against Lebron’s teams until last game.
      If you’re Grunwald what do you do realistically do next year? Are you trading Melo? If so, for who? Would you wait for his contract to run out? Given, where we are now, even if you disagreed w/ the trade…what would you do? That would be much more interesting than the constant back and forth of Melo’s standing in the NBA. Can we realistically acquire a player in the next 2-3 years who you think could be the centerpiece of a championship that you believe Melo isn’t?

      Owen:
      Well, Lawson was in the top 30 in Win Shares. But that’s it. It was a team effort….

    150. johnlocke

      By the way…Jordan’s flu game, (maybe Tyson had a different strand) is even that much more impressive to me.

    151. jon abbey

      it’d be fascinating if Owen started a blog and created an ‘alternate universe’ Knicks team, starting now. obviously there’s not much room to make many big moves for a few years, and of course it’s hard to know what trades can actually be made until they’re made in real life, but I still think it’d be interesting.

    152. johnlocke

      By the way — to my earlier GM question –an interesting stat…in terms of how to acquire that franchise difference maker to take you to the championship….looking at Finals MVPs (typically the centerpiece on championship teams)…only two players over the last 26 years were not acquired in the draft by that team (Shaq and Billups). Lebron is trying to be the third. I would even put an asterisk next to Shaq, b/c he had Kobe next to him, another once in a generation talent, and Lebron has Wade, another once in a generation talent. In either case, over those 10 years when we were really horrible, we never managed to get a draft pick high enough to get one of these difference makers. We’ve relied on the ‘quick fix’ approach that leads to getting stars past their primes or overpaying (via trades/dollars) for talent. Not saying we necessarily overpaid for Melo, but the strategy we’ve been using to build our team hasn’t historically worked.

    153. johnlocke

      Ha! Awesome idea

      jon abbey:
      it’d be fascinating if Owen started a blog and created an ‘alternate universe’ Knicks team, starting now. obviously there’s not much room to make many big moves for a few years, and of course it’s hard to know what trades can actually be made until they’re made in real life, but I still think it’d be interesting.

    154. Owen

      “If you’re Grunwald what do you do realistically do next year? ”

      The weird thing about the Melo argument is that I think a strong majority of posters probably agree with what Mike K wrote when he arrived. He isn’t a top 10 player and he might not be in the top 20, but probably isn’t worse that 30. Yet we are still arguing about it, mostly because of the dedicated few who think he is actually a top 10 guy.

      If I were Grunwald, I don’t know. He is in a tough spot. He is trying to dig out of a pretty big hole.

      I tend to think that championship teams are built over a long period of time as the result of the accretion of many good decisions and some very good luck.

      Step 1 is commit to a thinking process where we try to consistently make excellent decisions that are focused on building a championship team.

      And, despite the talk about Melo, it’s Amare who is the real issue. He stinks. I don’t understand the mechanics of NBA trading as well as others. But step 2, would be getting rid of Amare.

      Step 3 would be adding Chris Paul or Deron Williams.

      That’s highly unlikely obviously, if not impossible, ask the cap guys. But Melo and Amare, it really doesn’t work. It won’t ever IMHO. They are incredibly duplicative.

      It’s also hard for me to take right now as the moment to start the analysis. There are so many mistakes we have made in the past few years that could have positioned us for the future. Lawson was a huge one. Our situation would look much differently if he were playing point and Blair and Faried were coming off the bench.

    155. Owen

      Frankly, if you had been doing the drafting the last few years for the Knicks, we would be in much better shape. So perhaps you can consult….

      jon abbey:
      it’d be fascinating if Owen started a blog and created an ‘alternate universe’ Knicks team, starting now. obviously there’s not much room to make many big moves for a few years, and of course it’s hard to know what trades can actually be made until they’re made in real life, but I still think it’d be interesting.

    156. Owen

      Also, the Knicks team in Caleb’s alternate universe I suspect would be far more competitive….

    157. johnlocke

      Thanks for that. interesting stuff. Agree w/ you that Amare is the weak cog mainly because I’ve never seen a star big man play worse defense….EVER. He has no clue out there. Problem is he’s owed $60M over 3 years…so we’d have to take pennies on the dollar to trade him, which I think we should do.
      The only way we get Chris Paul realistically is via trade and Amare wouldn’t cut it… for that matter Melo wouldn’t either. We don’t have the cap space to get Deron and he’s signing a long-term deal this year.

      Off the top of my head, our best best is to 1. assume that Melo can be the centerpiece of a championship team (because we can’t realistically trade him for someone better) 2. quickly build the right complementary team around him….right pt guard (Lin?) shooters and strong defensive core….3. trade Amare for a good defensive forward and a knock down shooter

      My point is that I think Melo will be our core player for the next few years, so not sure what all the debate is about, other than winning arguments.

      Owen:
      “If you’re Grunwald what do you do realistically do next year? ”

      Step 3 would be adding Chris Paul or Deron Williams.

    158. Will the Thrill

      There is just no way we can keep this team together and hope it works. That game can’t be blamed on the refs or injuries, we simply sucked and looked like a bad, bad basketball team. My worst nightmare would be becoming a classic Woodson team (lose, lose, and lose some more in the playoffs)

    159. johnlocke

      We’ve also had a LOT of bad luck too from an injury perspective. You need a team that has been healthy and together for at least a couple years to really be in the hunt for a championship. And for what it’s worth — assuming we hadn’t lost Shump. I think we would have been competitive with or beat any team in the East not named the Miami Heat. Having said that, if we ever are going to win a championship we need to be able to beat these guys b/c even if we get good next year and everything clicks with Lin, Melo and co — we’ll still have to beat the heat. They could end up being Bulls 2.0 for us, assuming our Knicks b/c a legit/elite team over the next 2-3 yrs.

      Will the Thrill:
      There is just no way we can keep this team together and hope it works. That game can’t be blamed on the refs or injuries, we simply sucked and looked like a bad, bad basketball team.My worst nightmare would be becoming a classic Woodson team (lose, lose, and lose some more in the playoffs)

    160. Juany8

      Blair got benched for Boris Diaw by the smartest coach in the league. The same Boris Diaw the Charlotte Bobcats let go. Faried just showed exactly why you can’t play him heavy minutes in the playoffs, he looked completely overmatched against Bynum and Gasol. Lawson was a huge mistake, but it was pretty funny seeing Jordan Hill dominate the Nuggets puny front court.

      Also, while the Knicks aren’t going to be able to trade Amar’e for another star, they can trade him for legitimate depth and just build around Lin, Melo, and Chandler, who are excellent fits together for the most part. Orlando is pretty stupid, they might consider an Amar’e for Ryan Anderson and Hedo Turkoglu trade, which would make the loss of Novak totally irrelevant.

    161. Juany8

      johnlocke:
      We’ve also had a LOT of bad luck too from an injury perspective. You need a team that has been healthy and together for at least a couple years to really be in the hunt for a championship. And for what it’s worth — assuming we hadn’t lost Shump. I think we would have been competitive with or beat any team in the East not named the Miami Heat.Having said that, if we ever are going to win a championship we need to be able to beat these guys b/c even if we get good next year and everything clicks with Lin, Melo and co — we’ll still have to beat the heat. They could end up being Bulls 2.0 for us, assuming our Knicks b/c a legit/elite team over the next 2-3 yrs.

      We’d certainly stand a strong chance against Chicago now. Incredible how the Knicks were 1 game up or down from playing a much, much easier opponent in the first round. Plus they wouldnt have been playing 8 on 5 against Indiana lol.

    162. cgreene

      Will the Thrill:
      There is just no way we can keep this team together and hope it works. That game can’t be blamed on the refs or injuries, we simply sucked and looked like a bad, bad basketball team.My worst nightmare would be becoming a classic Woodson team (lose, lose, and lose some more in the playoffs)

      True that game can’t be blamed on the refs. We sucked. BUT that wasn’t THE team. THE team right now includes a healthy Tyson Chandler the league’s 3rd best center and a healthy Jeremy Lin who if he is what we think he is is a top 12 PG in the league. That plus the right role players and an improving Shumpert COULD be a top 4 team. This fantasy includes Melo playing like a top 12-15 player. But as we all have conceded luck plays a role. Funny thing is we actually had some this year with Shump, Lin, Novak, JR. But the bad luck with injuries outweighed it. The team was peaking after taking the home and home from the Pacers and beating the Sixers. Then it all went to shit. So any discussion of how this team was built is, frankly, moot IMO. Because THIS team is not THE team.

    163. 2FOR18

      Juany8:

      Also, while the Knicks aren’t going to be able to trade Amar’e for another star, they can trade him for legitimate depth and just build around Lin, Melo, and Chandler, who are excellent fits together for the most part. Orlando is pretty stupid, they might consider an Amar’e for Ryan Anderson and Hedo Turkoglu trade, which would make the loss of Novak totally irrelevant.

      That’s exactly the kind of trade the Knicks should be looking into. You can’t get a stud for Amare, but you might be able to get certain skill sets that can complement melo/Lin/Chandler.

    164. Owen

      JuanNy- I wouldn’t say Blair is a game changer by any means. But we should have accumulated a stable of good young assets. Blair is certainly still that. Hill is following the tried and true path of looking better on a good team than on a bad team but being exactly the same player.

      JohnLocke – For the record, I don’t think this team will be a top four team in the East next year, barring some drastic changes in rosters.

      If I had my druthers, I never would have signed Carmelo. Certainly not for Gallo and draft picks and at that salary, not unless Chris Paul was part of the package.

      If I were actually in charge I don’t know if I would have the courage to blow it up. But I think the most direct road to a championship is not three more years of Melo and Amare.

    165. 2FOR18

      It’s sickening watching these horrible Eastern Conference teams play while we have to deal with Miami.

    166. nicos

      No one’s taking Amar’e’s contract with the health issues he’s had this year. Our best bet is sending him to Germany for the Kobe procedure (Kobe did look fairly spry early in the season before playing 38.5 minutes a night in a condensed season took his legs again) and pray it helps get his legs back. I think a healthy Amar’e can still put up a 580-600 TS% with high usage with a decent point guard which we have in Lin. Maybe he has a bounce back season and you can then trade him for a piece or two that will actually help the team- he’s going to look a lot more attractive with two years left on his deal rather than three.
      I’m also in favor of maybe seeing how the rest of this series plays out before breaking up the team? I expected the Knicks to struggle in game one- though not to extent they did- as I knew the Heat’s defense would be at a completely different level than it was during the regular season. Do I think they’ll win the series? No, but I doubt they’ll wind up looking completely over-matched like they did yesterday.

    167. david

      The only team I can see taking the uninsurable Amare contract off our hands is the new Brooklyn Nets. They probably won’t be able to work a trade for Howard, might lose Williams, and desperately need someone with a name brand in nyc. Amare for Gerald Wallace and Kris Humphries? Or something…

    168. johnlocke

      True…however, next year we will very very likely not have JR or Novak. So next year still won’t be THE team..it will be a different team. Amare is also an open question I think.

      cgreene: True that game can’t be blamed on the refs.We sucked.BUT that wasn’t THE team.THE team right now includes a healthy Tyson Chandler the league’s 3rd best center and a healthy Jeremy Lin who if he is what we think he is is a top 12 PG in the league.That plus the right role players and an improving Shumpert COULD be a top 4 team.This fantasy includes Melo playing like a top 12-15 player.But as we all have conceded luck plays a role.Funny thing is we actually had some this year with Shump, Lin, Novak, JR.But the bad luck with injuries outweighed it.The team was peaking after taking the home and home from the Pacers and beating the Sixers.Then it all went to shit.So any discussion of how this team was built is, frankly, moot IMO.Because THIS team is not THE team.

    169. max fisher-cohen

      The Nuggets are like the Heat. They thrive off of chaos. This is why they double so often — they try to get the ball moving, to make the other team play fast. The Lakers were very smart in their passes out of these doubles — only 11 turnovers — and made open shots. Every 50/50 shot that the Lakers made is the equivalent of probably a 3.5 point swing since not only do the makes increase LA’s score, but they prevent Denver from running. Denver also missed a ton of shots right at the rim and failed to make the extra pass when Bynum helped. These were the differences in the game, and they are certainly recoverable.

      This isn’t Denver/OKC where the Thunder could compete in a fast or slow pace. This is a contest based on ability to control the tempo. The Suns won plenty of playoff series’ against intimidating front lines by exposing the other team’s lack of foot speed.

    170. johnlocke

      Kris Humphries is an unrestricted free agent, so he’d have to re-sign with the Nets. So is Gerald Wallace. But assuming they both resign, if they throw in Anthony Morrow we may have a deal.
      Kris gets the boards, although his defense is also suspect. Morrow shoots the three and could replicate Novak, and Gerald Wallace can guard elite wing players. Possibility?

      david:
      The only team I can see taking the uninsurable Amare contract off our hands is the new Brooklyn Nets.They probably won’t be able to work a trade for Howard, might lose Williams, and desperately need someone with a name brand in nyc.Amare for Gerald Wallace and Kris Humphries? Or something…

    171. Spree8nyk8

      2FOR18:
      It’s sickening watching these horrible Eastern Conference teams play while we have to deal with Miami.

      What sickens me is that we did it to ourselves. I definitely like Woodson more than MDA but I really hated the team tanking on him, bc of this exact situation. The management should have fired MDA after the boston game when MDA played Lin in the first half and then put TD in the second half and let him lose a 12 pt lead (the game before Linsanity started in NJ). If they would have done the right thing and fired him then we wouldn’t have had to deal with a lot of this stuff. The only real question would be whether Lin would have ever gotten his shot if that would have happened.

    172. cgreene

      johnlocke:
      True…however, next year we will very very likely not have JR or Novak. So next year still won’t be THE team..it will be a different team. Amare is also an open question I think.

      Yes. But role players can be found. It would be nice if we could keep one of those two which I think we will. I am not so sure that I would just immediately offer Lin the entire MLE. Why not offer him 5 years $20M starting at $3.5M per? Guy has played 30 games and if anyone gets the value of playing in NYC over other markets especially with smaller Asian populations I would imagine that our Harvard man learned that he is a much more valuable commodity here. Then you can give JR 3 years and about $15M if my math is right. Someone please correct me if you can’t combine the exceptions.

    173. johnlocke

      Haha, maybe –they could be desperate — esp if Howard leaves, but Anderson is 23 and makes $2M a year. We would have to take Hedo’s horrible contract and he’s 33. But throw in Redick and I’d be for it.

      Juany8:
      Blair got benched for Boris Diaw by the smartest coach in the league. The same Boris Diaw the Charlotte Bobcats let go. Faried just showed exactly why you can’t play him heavy minutes in the playoffs, he looked completely overmatched against Bynum and Gasol. Lawson was a huge mistake, but it was pretty funny seeing Jordan Hill dominate the Nuggets puny front court.

      Also, while the Knicks aren’t going to be able to trade Amar’e for another star, they can trade him for legitimate depth and just build around Lin, Melo, and Chandler, who are excellent fits together for the most part. Orlando is pretty stupid, they might consider an Amar’e for Ryan Anderson and Hedo Turkoglu trade, which would make the loss of Novak totally irrelevant.

    174. johnlocke

      Don’t think combining works…but I’m not the resident salary cap expert. Also Lin will be offered the full MLE b/c that will be his market value and he will get offers from other teams, even if they know he’ll resign with the Knicks, just to screw us. JR is like 98% gone, Novak I’d put in the 70-80% range…esp depending on what he does in this series.

      cgreene: Yes.But role players can be found.It would be nice if we could keep one of those two which I think we will.I am not so sure that I would just immediately offer Lin the entire MLE.Why not offer him 5 years $20M starting at $3.5M per?Guy has played 30 games and if anyone gets the value of playing in NYC over other markets especially with smaller Asian populations I would imagine that our Harvard man learned that he is a much more valuable commodity here.Then you can give JR 3 years and about $15M if my math is right.Someone please correct me if you can’t combine the exceptions.

    175. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I like how the Nuggets are an example of a team for which statistics “lie” because they got smoked in one game. By the same logic, the Knicks are also terribly overrated and probably belong near the top of the lottery pile.

    176. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I like how the Nuggets are an example of a team for which statistics “lie” because they got smoked in one game. By the same logic, the Knicks are also terribly overrated and probably belong near the top of the lottery pile.

      Let’s let it play out then, shall we, cock boy? Last year post-trade Denver had an offensive rating of around 114 in the regular season, 103.96 in the post-season (full health). OKC, btw, was 15th last regular season with a DRTG of 107.2 — So, the Nuggets were more than 10 points per 100 possessions less efficient in the playoffs last year against a middling regular season defensive team, and somehow managed to be 4 points less efficient than what the Thunder allowed on average during the regular season — LMAO. That’s some Bleacher Report shit, ain’t it? And Both Memphis and Dallas –teams that were significantly worse on offense than the post trade Nuggets, were both somehow significantly better than the Nuggets on offense in the playoffs.

      How does that work?

      Let’s see how they do this year, minus the .480 TS Wilson Chandler (In a Nuggets uni), Denver was a 109.1 ORTG during the regular season.

      The Lakers were 13th in ORTG at 104.4. I’ll make sure to keep you posted.

      Oh and let’s not forget that you called a sweep in this series.

    177. ruruland

      <a href=

      My point is that I think Melo will be our core player for the next few years, so not sure what all the debate is about, other than winning arguments.

      Well said.

    178. ruruland

      2FOR18: That’s exactly the kind of trade the Knicks should be looking into.You can’t get a stud for Amare, but you might be able to get certain skill sets that can complement melo/Lin/Chandler.

      Some of us have been saying this from day one. I still think Amar’e/Melo can work with a point guard, but a spread 4 who can rebound?

      You can’t ask for much more than that.

      He’s really an ideal complementary player, maybe Orlando wants to get of Hedo’s contract and will take the last two years of Amar’e (who may thrive with their floor spacing and shooting)

      Of course, if Owen really has a beat on things like he seems to think, Anderson will dominate the playoffs and become untouchable.

    179. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Let’s let it play out then, shall we, cock boy?Last year post-trade Denver had an offensive rating of around 114 in the regular season, 103.96 in the post-season (full health). OKC, btw, was 15th last regular season with a DRTG of 107.2 — So, the Nuggets were more than 10 points per 100 possessions less efficient in the playoffs last year against a middling regular season defensive team, and somehow managed to be 4 points less efficient than what the Thunder allowed on average during the regular season — LMAO. That’s some Bleacher Report shit, ain’t it? And Both Memphis and Dallas –teams that were significantly worse on offense than the post trade Nuggets, were both somehow significantly better than the Nuggets on offense in the playoffs.

      How does that work?

      Let’s see how they do this year,minus the .480 TS Wilson Chandler (In a Nuggets uni), Denver was a 109.1 ORTG during the regular season.

      The Lakers were 13th in ORTG at 104.4. I’ll make sure to keep you posted.

      Oh and let’s not forget that you called a sweep in this series.

      When did I call a sweep? I called a sweep for the Knicks’ series. I don’t think any team in the league could sweep a team whose frontcourt is Matt Barnes, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum.

    180. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      Kris Humphries is an unrestricted free agent, so he’d have to re-sign with the Nets. So is Gerald Wallace. But assuming they both resign, if they throw in Anthony Morrow we may have a deal.
      Kris gets the boards, although his defense is also suspect. Morrow shoots the three and could replicate Novak, and Gerald Wallace can guard elite wing players. Possibility?

      That would be sweet. Humphries is ridiculously underrated, but Williams and Amar’e could do work.

      I’d hate to see Amar’e go to Brooklyn though. That would sting.

    181. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: When did I call a sweep? I called a sweep for the Knicks’ series. I don’t think any team in the league could sweep a team whose frontcourt is Matt Barnes, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum.

      Right, I was referring to the Heat series. You’re saying it’s absurd to close the book on a series after one game, but that’s exactly what you did with the team you’re a “fan” of.

    182. Owen

      That’s actually not what he is saying. He is saying the Heat are a lot better then the Knicks. The Lakers are not a lot better than the Nuggets…

      And I would shed zero tears if Amare were in BK….

      ruruland: Right, I was referring to the Heat series. You’re saying it’s absurd to close the book on a series after one game, but that’s exactly what you did with the team you’re a “fan” of.

    183. ruruland

      Owen:
      JuanNy- I wouldn’t say Blair is a game changer by any means. But we should have accumulated a stable of good young assets. Blair is certainly still that. Hill is following the tried and true path of looking better on a good team than on a bad team but being exactly the same player.

      JohnLocke – For the record, I don’t think this team will be a top four team in the East next year, barring some drastic changes in rosters.

      If I had my druthers, I never would have signed Carmelo. Certainly not for Gallo and draft picks and at that salary, not unless Chris Paul was part of the package.

      If I were actually in charge I don’t know if I would have the courage to blow it up. But I think the most direct road to a championship is not three more years of Melo and Amare.

      But the question you need to start asking yourself is is Melo good enough to have a chance beating the Heat over the next 5-7 years if he has a really good team around him — one that includes a great defensive center, a premier defensive guard, an above average point guard, and possibly-post-Amar’e, the spacing and shooting pieces. More importantly, if you aren’t quite sure, what’s the next best bet?? Paul looks like an extreme long shot. the Williams card has already been played and passed over (and he’s been a very average player without the flex offense)

      Lebron/Wade aren’t going anywhere for a long time in all likelihood. So, to me, building a team to beat them is the way to go.

      The other option is to completely concede the next 5-7 years to them and start building for a future window in 5-6 years. There are a million reasons why I think that’s stupid.

    184. d-mar

      Game 1 shooting for three players consistently ranked ahead of Melo on this board:

      Pierce 5-19
      Joe Johnson 3-15
      Igoudala 3-11

      I guess they all just suck

    185. ruruland

      Owen:
      That’s actually not what he is saying. He is saying the Heat are a lot better then the Knicks. The Lakers are not a lot better than the Nuggets…

      And I would shed zero tears if Amare were in BK….

      No, shall I post his exact words?

      You wouldn’t feel a little something for a guy who had the balls to come to NY first, who’s never whined or complained about his situation, who’s bounced bakc again and again from injury?

      See, this is where I have essentially zero in common with you as a fan. Why don’t you just create the team you want on NBA 2k12?

    186. johnlocke

      Yeh, but I highly doubt Deron will be in a Nets jersey next year. The trade would most likely happen at the trade deadline mid-season, for yet another season with a new roster =)

      ruruland: That would be sweet. Humphries is ridiculously underrated, but Williams and Amar’e could do work.

      I’d hate to see Amar’e go to Brooklyn though. That would sting.

    187. ruruland

      d-mar:
      Game 1 shooting for three players consistently ranked ahead of Melo on this board:

      Pierce 5-19
      Joe Johnson 3-15
      Igoudala 3-11

      I guess they all just suck

      Let’s include some guys Owen thinks are superior (the one’s he could think off the top of his head, I’m sure I’m forgetting a lot more)

      Anderson: 2-7, 5pts
      Lawson: 3-11 7pts,

    188. Owen

      “But the question you need to start asking yourself is is Melo good enough to have a chance beating the Heat over the next 5-7 years if he has a really good team around him”

      I think a team with Melo could beat the Heat, with Lebron and Wade, if Melo is the third best player on the team. We are halfway to that goal with Chandler in the fold.

      If we shed Amare and spend that 20 million wisely sure, it’s possible. But only if and how we shed that contract I don’t know.

      The thing is, we absolutely screwed ourselves to get Melo. No draft picks for a while. No cap space. And we did it with Gallo in the fold, who, even if you don’t think he is as good as Melo as I do, would have been substantially cheaper.

      Do you think Chris Paul would have come to New York to play with Chandler, Gallo, and Amare if Melo weren’t there? I think that was a much better possibility.

      At the end of the day, you win in the NBA by having a guy who is a genuine first team All-NBA talent or a DPOY with another quality guy. And the knicks have not had either of those things in a long long time….

      Signing Chandler was great, but he is honestly the first legit guy we have acquired in a long long time. Look at the transaction list….

    189. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Let’s include some guys Owen thinks are superior (the one’s he could think off the top of his head, I’m sure I’m forgetting a lot more)

      Anderson: 2-7, 5pts
      Lawson: 3-11 7pts,

      heh, like Melo shot better than those guys.

      Joe Johnson is the exact right comparison to Melo: good enough to be the best guy on a playoff team, not good enough to be paid max money or to lead the team to a championship.

      oh, and they both shot the exact same numbers, how ironic!

      watching Grizzlies and Clippers now, I love this Memphis team, Conley shows just why you can’t give up on high lottery picks so fast, he’s becoming a criminally underrated PG in this league.

    190. ruruland

      Owen:

      I think a team with Melo could beat the Heat, with Lebron and Wade, if Melo is the third best player on the team. We are halfway to that goal with Chandler in the fold.

      If we shed Amare and spend that 20 million wisely sure, it’s possible. But only if and how we shed that contract I don’t know.

      The thing is, we absolutely screwed ourselves to get Melo. No draft picks for a while. No cap space. And we did it with Gallo in the fold, who, even if you don’t think he is as good as Melo as I do, would have been substantially cheaper.

      Do you think Chris Paul would have come to New York to play with Chandler, Gallo, and Amare if Melo weren’t there? I think that was a much better possibility.

      At the end of the day, you win in the NBA by having a guy who is a genuine first team All-NBA talent or a DPOY with another quality guy. And the knicks have not had either of those things in a long long time….

      Signing Chandler was great, but he is honestly the first legit guy we have acquired in a long long time. Look at the transaction list….

      What do you think about the 2008 run with Denver where they lost to LAL in 6 games (and had a lead 75% of the minutes of that series)..

      Was there really any question Melo was the best player for most of that series?? Denver didn’t have a player like Chandler, either.

      You clearly weren’t impressed with Chauncey last year, but he is very efficient, and is the kind of player that can really complement Melo’s game.

      I mean, do you think a team of Lin/Shumpert/Melo/Chandler\Anderson. for example, with shooting and defense on the bench? would be good enough to have a real chance of beating Miami?

      Is building that kind of team really that unrealistic in the next few years?

    191. Bruno Almeida

      @201

      Gasol was the best player in that series, and it’s not even close in my opinion.

    192. Owen

      I would love to run the Knicks. Or have Caleb and Mike K do it with Jon as a draft consultant..

      There is no doubt that we would be a better team right now.

      ruruland: No, shall I post his exact words?

      You wouldn’t feel a little something for a guy who had the balls to come to NY first, who’s never whined or complained about his situation, who’s bounced bakc again and again from injury?

      See, this is where I have essentially zero in common with you as a fan. Why don’t you just create the team you want on NBA 2k12?

    193. ruruland

      And I think Owen you need to think about finally moving on. The trade is done and it can never be undone.

    194. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland:
      And I think Owen you need to think about finally moving on. The trade is done and it can never be undone.

      we have moved on, but this does not magically transform Carmelo into an incredible player who can do no wrong, like you wish we referred to him.

    195. Bruno Almeida

      and to keep saying that Denver led that series for 75% of the time only weakens your argument… that means that when Carmelo is supposedly the “closer” and the go-to-guy down the stretch, he failed and let the Lakers win…

    196. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      @201

      Gasol was the best player in that series, and it’s not even close in my opinion.

      he was a pretty efficient scorer, averaged 18 ppg, and dominated the boards against Denver’s tiny frontcourt.

    197. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: we have moved on, but this does not magically transform Carmelo into an incredible player who can do no wrong, like you wish we referred to him.

      What?

      This is what creates superfluous posts on these threads.

    198. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      and to keep saying that Denver led that series for 75% of the time only weakens your argument… that means that when Carmelo is supposedly the “closer” and the go-to-guy down the stretch, he failed and let the Lakers win…

      Nah, that’s what I thought, you didn’t watch the series.

    199. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: he was a pretty efficient scorer, averaged 18 ppg, and dominated the boards against Denver’s tiny frontcourt.

      and how isn’t that better than a guy who shot terribly on every game except the first one (a loss), never had more than 9 rebounds in a game, and had more turnovers than assists on 4 games?

    200. johnlocke

      But Owen your ideas for running the team are. …’we should have gotten Chris Paul’….well I’d also like to be dating Jessica Alba. I could defend the Melo trade, but I really think that debate has been had 1 million times on this board. What do we do now?

      You still haven’t provided an alternative to the build around Melo strategy…. the only other route I see is what ruru suggested which is trade Melo and Amare acquire young players and draft picks and stink for a few years (again) to try to get lucky and pick accurately in the draft. Your ideas?

      Owen:
      I would love to run the Knicks. Or have Caleb and Mike K do it with Jon as a draft consultant..

      There is no doubt that we would be a better team right now.

    201. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: What?

      This is what creates superfluous posts on these threads.

      oh, so you defending Joe Johnson deluxe doesn’t?

      if Melo is the amazing player / person you think he is, he’ll prove it to us when he gets the chance, you don’t need to keep banging your head on every thread about it… the problem is he hasn’t done it, and the first playoff game played exactly how we thought it would, and not what you felt it would…

    202. Owen

      Ruruland – We have been over that series. Melo had an amazing game 1 in a loss. No question.

      And then didn’t post a game score over 20 the rest of the way 

      I am not going back to watch the series to see what the stats are missing. But it doesn’t look like any kind of all time performance…

      If only I could have been inside your brain experiencing how awesome it was to have Melo on the brink of validating his reputation….

    203. Bruno Almeida

      johnlocke:
      But Owen your ideas for running the team are. …’we should have gotten Chris Paul’….well I’d also like to be dating Jessica Alba. I could defend the Melo trade, but I really think that debate has been had 1 million times on this board. What do we do now?

      You still haven’t provided an alternative to the build around Melo strategy…. the only other route I see is what ruru suggested which is trade Melo and Amare acquire young players and draft picks and stink for a few years (again) to try to get lucky and pick accurately in the draft.Your ideas?

      I’d be ok with that.

      there’s no need to trade Carmelo imo, but he has far more trade value than this broken down version of Amare… that’s why I think we’re screwed.

      if Amare could somehow have a good playoff series, play really well and stay healthy, then his trade value would be up and we could target someone that compliments Carmelo and Chandler…

      but the way things are right now, I don’t see us becoming a championship team anytime soon.

    204. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Ruruland – We have been over that series. Melo had an amazing game 1 in a loss. No question.

      And then didn’t post a game score over 20 the rest of the way

      I am not going back to watch the series to see what the stats are missing. But it doesn’t look like any kind of all time performance…

      If only I could have been inside your brain experiencing how awesome it was to have Melo on the brink of validating his reputation….

      I watched all games of that series and seriously, Melo wasn’t that great.

      he did play better than what his (terrible) stats suggest, but better than Gasol, who was clearly the playoffs MVP? no freaking way.

    205. Owen

      I don’t know. Enjoy being the Hawks of the teens…

      johnlocke:
      But Owen your ideas for running the team are. …’we should have gotten Chris Paul’….well I’d also like to be dating Jessica Alba. I could defend the Melo trade, but I really think that debate has been had 1 million times on this board. What do we do now?

      You still haven’t provided an alternative to the build around Melo strategy…. the only other route I see is what ruru suggested which is trade Melo and Amare acquire young players and draft picks and stink for a few years (again) to try to get lucky and pick accurately in the draft.Your ideas?

    206. Bruno Almeida

      I love how ruruland’s argument against everyone that goes against him is “you haven’t watched the games”.

      laughable, really.

      you’re not the only one who has league pass and watches one million games every day, my friend.

    207. JR Sec 112

      This really is getting silly. Mostly because the starting team for the next 3 years (Lin, Shump, TC, Amare, Melo) has played together under this coach for is 7-1, with an ridiculous point differential I might add. Amare and his contract are not going anywhere. Why dont we give the actual team a few months in a non-strike shortened season to see how they play together before we pass judegements. Should the Clippers look to trade Chris Paul now that he looked a step slow in game 1 and they are getting blown out by Memphis?

      Personally, I believe if they stay healthy the knicks will finish 3rd in the East next year and are better than everyone but Miami and Chicago. I agree they need a bit of luck to get past those two and not sure how they get that luck, but its way too early for the gloom and doom here on the board.

    208. er

      Lol u speak of melo like he’s not on your team wow such venom is sad…

      Bruno Almeida: everybody knows that, but your fucking great offensive player just shot 3-15 on the most important game so far in the season, so let’s just think for a moment that maybe he’s not the great fucking offensive mastermind you make him to be.

      and look at the Nuggets-Lakers regular season series and the SAME EXACT THING that is happening today, happened on those games.

    209. Bruno Almeida

      er:
      Lol u speak of melo like he’s not on your team wow such venom is sad…

      what?

      so just because he’s on my team I have to defend him every time?

      we went through this already, do you still defend Charles Smith against everything? did you think it was “not being a fan” to criticize Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury or Isiah Thomas?

    210. max fisher-cohen

      @ruru, if we resigned ourselves to talking about what management WILL do, we would have nothing to talk about. Realistically speaking, the possibilities are pretty simple. Melo was Dolan’s signature move, so he will never be traded.

      A) The knicks start out next season strong and make no moves.

      B) The knicks struggle. Stoudemire is traded for role players. The Knicks become a Melo-centric team, a strategy proven to get you 45 wins at minimum. Maybe they only win 48-50 games and have 1st and 2nd round playoff exits. Maybe they are better than that and win a championship. Whichever happens, it doesn’t matter, because even 48 wins is enough to delude your fan base into believing you have a chance, and as the Knicks will have no cap space or picks, the only option would be to trade Melo, which, as discussed, would only happen over Dolan’s dead body.

      The only way the team doesn’t follow one of these two trajectories is if Chandler or Melo were to suffer a career altering or ending injury, in which case the Knicks would suck and try to rebuild again.

      That’s everything… Do we shut down the board now?

    211. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ruruland – We have been over that series. Melo had an amazing game 1 in a loss. No question.

      And then didn’t post a game score over 20 the rest of the way

      I am not going back to watch the series to see what the stats are missing. But it doesn’t look like any kind of all time performance…

      If only I could have been inside your brain experiencing how awesome it was to have Melo on the brink of validating his reputation….

      20.9 in game 2.

      It wasn’t an all-time performance. And he did wear down at the end of the series, but that team had a real chance to go to the NBa Finals with a squad who’s second best player was a 34-year-old point guard who struggled getting into the lane.

      It was the best team Melo’s ever played on, but it wasn’t all that great. The Knicks have the ability to build a better team than that one right now — and I think a much better team than that one is possible.

    212. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Wow, alley oop to Jordan. That was insane….

      awesome athletic play…

      if the Grizzlies play defense like this, they might reach the conference finals after all.

    213. johnlocke

      I watched that series pretty closely also…there was this guy named Kobe Bryant that played pretty well also

      Bruno Almeida: I watched all games of that series and seriously, Melo wasn’t that great.

      he did play better than what his (terrible) stats suggest, but better than Gasol, who was clearly the playoffs MVP? no freaking way.

    214. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: what?

      so just because he’s on my team I have to defend him every time?

      we went through this already, do you still defend Charles Smith against everything? did you think it was “not being a fan” to criticize Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury or Isiah Thomas?

      But the problem is you’ve never come close to defending Melo. You go out of your way to attack him in every thread he’s mentioned. That’s a huge difference.

    215. er

      No u dont

      Owen:
      Seriously….

      Wade is also the guy who has actually done what you have been promising all year that Melo is capable of, which is win a championship basically singlehandedly….

      Sure he had Shaq, but Shaq wasn’t Shaq anymore. And the third best player on that team was Udonis Haslem.

      If Melo actually puts up the numbers you claim he is capable of, this argument will end. And I hope he starts now. Because honestly, I want Melo to be great. He just isn’t….

    216. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      I love how ruruland’s argument against everyone that goes against him is “you haven’t watched the games”.

      laughable, really.

      you’re not the only one who has league pass and watches one million games every day, my friend.

      right, people get sick of me making 100 posts a day because that’s all I post.

    217. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: But the problem is you’ve never come close to defending Melo. You go out of your way to attack him in every thread he’s mentioned. That’s a huge difference.

      no, when he was playing terrific basketball I was defending him.

      and I’ve said it a million times, if he plays like that everytime, I’d love him, even Owen said it a couple of times.

      the problem is that he DOESN’T.

      on the biggest game of the season so far, he was 3-15 and was embarassingly dominated by LeBron.

      if he recovers and has a great series, I’ll obviously praise him, just like I did when he had an absolutely heroic performance against Boston last year.

    218. er

      U don’t criticize you try to tear down that’s a difference

      Bruno Almeida: what?

      so just because he’s on my team I have to defend him every time?

      we went through this already, do you still defend Charles Smith against everything? did you think it was “not being a fan” to criticize Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury or Isiah Thomas?

    219. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland, for example… Hawks fans are obviously happy because they won a huge game right now and Rondo will probably be suspended, giving the Hawks a huge advantage on a very winnable series.

      do you think the fans are happy with Joe Johnson’s effort, and are praising him?

      do you think they should overlook his pathetic game tonight because of what he’s done for the team?

      I seriously want to hear your take on this, a non-Melo subject.

    220. er

      Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time what the he’ll does that mean if he dominates him…he does the same to Kobe routinely and others

      Bruno Almeida: no, when he was playing terrific basketball I was defending him.

      and I’ve said it a million times, if he plays like that everytime, I’d love him, even Owen said it a couple of times.

      the problem is that he DOESN’T.

      on the biggest game of the season so far, he was 3-15 and was embarassingly dominated by LeBron.

      if he recovers and has a great series, I’ll obviously praise him, just like I did when he had an absolutely heroic performance against Boston last year.

    221. Bruno Almeida

      er:
      U don’t criticize you try to tear down that’s a difference

      dude, I have no power to tear down anything, I can just criticize someone on an internet blog, that’s all.

      everything that will ever happen to the Knicks has nothing to do with anything we say here, Dolan and his personnel will keep doing whatever they want to do… but like Max said, if we take that approach, then why have discussions at all? just shut down the boards.

    222. JR Sec 112

      Bruno Almeida: no, when he was playing terrific basketball I was defending him.

      and I’ve said it a million times, if he plays like that everytime, I’d love him, even Owen said it a couple of times.

      the problem is that he DOESN’T.

      on the biggest game of the season so far, he was 3-15 and was embarassingly dominated by LeBron.

      if he recovers and has a great series, I’ll obviously praise him, just like I did when he had an absolutely heroic performance against Boston last year.

      Stop, cmon, this is ridiculous. The guy was playing at Miami against one of the best defensive players in the league and had no PG and very little help. I highly doubt Celtic fans are crucifying Pierce (who everyone on the board seems to want Melo to become) for going 5-19, and that was against Josh Smith and with Rondo setting him up.

      The guy had a bad game, on the road, in the playoffs. And he got no help. It happens. LeBron dominated him. Not the first time Lebron did that to someone. It happens. If you cant move on and root for him to come back in game two, thats sad.

    223. er

      And the 3 -15 is such an overvlown thing it’s one bad shooting game KD was just as awful last night diff is he had major help from harden, Westbrook and ibaka

      Bruno Almeida: no, when he was playing terrific basketball I was defending him.

      and I’ve said it a million times, if he plays like that everytime, I’d love him, even Owen said it a couple of times.

      the problem is that he DOESN’T.

      on the biggest game of the season so far, he was 3-15 and was embarassingly dominated by LeBron.

      if he recovers and has a great series, I’ll obviously praise him, just like I did when he had an absolutely heroic performance against Boston last year.

    224. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen:
      @ruru, if we resigned ourselves to talking about what management WILL do, we would have nothing to talk about. Realistically speaking, the possibilities are pretty simple. Melo was Dolan’s signature move, so he will never be traded.

      A) The knicks start out next season strong and make no moves.

      B) The knicks struggle. Stoudemire is traded for role players. The Knicks become a Melo-centric team, a strategy proven to get you 45 wins at minimum. Maybe they only win 48-50 games and have 1st and 2nd round playoff exits. Maybe they are better than that and win a championship. Whichever happens, it doesn’t matter, because even 48 wins is enough to delude your fan base into believing you have a chance, and as the Knicks will have no cap space or picks, the only option would be to trade Melo, which, as discussed, would only happen over Dolan’s dead body.

      The only way the team doesn’t follow one of these two trajectories is if Chandler or Melo were to suffer a career altering or ending injury, in which case the Knicks would suck and try to rebuild again.

      That’s everything… Do we shut down the board now?

      B doesn’t make any sense to me.

      What I’ve tried to educate people on this board is that a)Melo’s game has developed a lot since he first came into the league b) many of the team’s Melo’s been were poorly constructed, void of talent and often missing one of its top 3 players c)Melo has the ability to improve the efficiency of the team around him, and if properly constructed can post 570-580TS on extremely high usage

      Look, when Melo had Chauncey and Nene in the starting lineup, the Nuggets won 70 percent of its games. That includes the disastrous stretch when Karl got cancer.

      The Nuggets had 54 and 53 wins with that team. The Knicks can build a better team than that in the next two years.

    225. Will the Thrill

      So its true, Melo doesn’t cancel out Lebron.

      er:
      Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time what the he’ll does that mean if he dominates him…he does the same to Kobe routinely and others

    226. Owen

      A. What Max said.

      B. You put Melo on a ridiculous pedestal. Really you are a large reason why he catches so much flak here. You create impossible expectations for his performance and when he doesn’t measure up you rationalize it away while accusing everyone who criticizes his play of not being good Knicks fans (which you have exactly 5 months experience with).

      ruruland: But the problem is you’ve never come close to defending Melo. You go out of your way to attack him in every thread he’s mentioned. That’s a huge difference.

    227. er

      No I don’t care about critizing it’s cool and fun but all I’m saying is there’s a difference that’s all

      Bruno Almeida: dude, I have no power to tear down anything, I can just criticize someone on an internet blog, that’s all.

      everything that will ever happen to the Knicks has nothing to do with anything we say here, Dolan and his personnel will keep doing whatever they want to do… but like Max said, if we take that approach, then why have discussions at all? just shut down the boards.

    228. Bruno Almeida

      JR Sec 112: Stop, cmon, this is ridiculous.The guy was playing at Miami against one of the best defensive players in the league and had no PG and very little help.I highly doubt Celtic fans are crucifying Pierce (who everyone on the board seems to want Melo to become) for going 5-19, and that was against Josh Smith and with Rondo setting him up.

      The guy had a bad game, on the road, in the playoffs.And he got no help. It happens.LeBron dominated him.Not the first time Lebron did that to someone.It happens.If you cant move on and root for him to come back in game two, thats sad.

      man, the whole argument pro-Melo was that he was routinely excellent against LeBron… and now everybody sings LeBron’s praises and act like they never said that?

      funny.

      I’m rooting for him to win a championship, seriously, I’m honestly tired, really tired of watching my teams suck (I’m a Mets fan also and trust me, it’s not fun)… I’ve never saw a championship team on my 2 favourite sports, and it’s not cool at all.

    229. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: dude, I have no power to tear down anything, I can just criticize someone on an internet blog, that’s all.

      everything that will ever happen to the Knicks has nothing to do with anything we say here, Dolan and his personnel will keep doing whatever they want to do… but like Max said, if we take that approach, then why have discussions at all? just shut down the boards.

      But people don’t seem to be interested in talking about how you can build a great team with Chandler, Melo, Lin and Shumpert as the key pieces. They’d rather talk about the trade that happened well over a year ago and has been talked about every single day on this board . That’s crazy!!

    230. er

      B is false just to be clear that will happen regardless don’t try that one

      Owen:
      A.What Max said.

      B. You put Melo on a ridiculous pedestal. Really you are a large reason why he catches so much flak here. You create impossible expectations for his performance and when he doesn’t measure up you rationalize it away while accusing everyone who criticizes his play of not being good Knicks fans (which you have exactly 5 months experience with).

    231. JR Sec 112

      Bruno Almeida: man, the wholeargument pro-Melo was that he was routinely excellent against LeBron… and now everybody sings LeBron’s praises and act like they never said that?

      funny.

      I’m rooting for him to win a championship, seriously, I’m honestly tired, really tired of watching my teams suck (I’m a Mets fan also and trust me, it’s not fun)… I’ve never saw a championship team on my 2 favourite sports, and it’s not cool at all.

      Its ONE game on the road. If he gets dominated all series long and shoots that poorly, fine, hate him all you want. At the moment, it looks like road teams are going 1-7 and as we have mentioned, a lot of other players had tough shooting days so far. Also, if you overlook the coaching and Woodson not being able to find a way to get him the ball in a scoring position because the Heat made a minor adjustment, then you are not looking at the whole picture.

      If your condemning Melo on the basis of one bad game in the playoffs, then I just dont believe you are actually rooting for him to do well, and by extension for the knicks to do well.

    232. Owen

      Yeah, agree.

      Honestly, what I want from Melo is to have him actually scratch a superstar number into the book at basketball reference for a full season.

      If I see him put up .220 WS-48 next year and put something similar up in the playoffs, you will not hear a peep from me. It’s as simple as that.

      Bruno Almeida: no, when he was playing terrific basketball I was defending him.

      and I’ve said it a million times, if he plays like that everytime, I’d love him, even Owen said it a couple of times.

      the problem is that he DOESN’T.

      on the biggest game of the season so far, he was 3-15 and was embarassingly dominated by LeBron.

      if he recovers and has a great series, I’ll obviously praise him, just like I did when he had an absolutely heroic performance against Boston last year.

    233. Will the Thrill

      You really can’t figure out why? I think it’s obvious that people (including me) believe that that team will never win a championship. I am really worried about how Shumpert will come back, he really relied on his athleticism, and I’m not sure about him coming back from the tear. Are there any good examples of people coming back strong? (could be a dumb question)

      ruruland: But people don’t seem to be interested in talking about how you can build a great team with Chandler, Melo, Lin and Shumpert as the key pieces.

    234. er

      He has a winning record against him and kills him so yea one game doesn’t really disprove that argument along with the fact that he was fronted and there was help from behind all game

      Bruno Almeida: man, the wholeargument pro-Melo was that he was routinely excellent against LeBron… and now everybody sings LeBron’s praises and act like they never said that?

      funny.

      I’m rooting for him to win a championship, seriously, I’m honestly tired, really tired of watching my teams suck (I’m a Mets fan also and trust me, it’s not fun)… I’ve never saw a championship team on my 2 favourite sports, and it’s not cool at all.

    235. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: But people don’t seem to be interested in talking about how you can build a great team with Chandler, Melo, Lin and Shumpert as the key pieces. They’d rather talk about the trade that happened well over a year ago and has been talked about every single day on this board . That’s crazy!!

      of course I’m interested! I have said it many times, the Knicks have to wait and try to get Amare’s value as high as possible, and try to luck out on a Gasol-like trade where someone really good falls to us on a very unlikely situation.

      and I do believe the Knicks can be a title team with Melo, just not the way it is right now with Amare f****** our cap space and adding close to nothing.

      but you take every single criticism of Melo to the heart… again, do you think Atlanta fans should be praising Joe Johnson after the stinker today? or that Boston fans should be happy with Rondo killing a 4th quarter comeback that could change the entire series and possibly the playoffs because of sheer immaturity?

      would you not be ok with Boston fans criticizing him, just like you aren’t when we criticize Carmelo?

    236. ruruland

      Owen:
      A.What Max said.

      B. You put Melo on a ridiculous pedestal. Really you are a large reason why he catches so much flak here. You create impossible expectations for his performance and when he doesn’t measure up you rationalize it away while accusing everyone who criticizes his play of not being good Knicks fans (which you have exactly 5 months experience with).

      I came here when you couldn’t find but maybe one or two people defending the constant Melo attacks on a given day. I’ve slightly moved the meter because I’ve introduced concepts to this board that people weren’t talking about much (or at all) before.

      Maybe I’ve pushed the people who disliked Melo and wanted to vent about the trade on a daily basis, but my central point has always been that he’s here and he’s going to stay here so let’s talk about how you build a team around Melo…..

      I don’t put Melo on an impossible pedestal. I try to show people how he can improve his teammates play even when his efficiency is middling, and how you can build a team where he both improves the efficiency of his teammates and has his own efficiency improved.

    237. Bruno Almeida

      JR Sec 112: Its ONE game on the road.If he gets dominated all series long and shoots that poorly, fine, hate him all you want.At the moment, it looks like road teams are going 1-7 and as we have mentioned, a lot of other players had tough shooting days so far.Also, if you overlook the coaching and Woodson not being able to find a way to get him the ball in a scoring position because the Heat made a minor adjustment, then you are not looking at the whole picture.

      If your condemning Melo on the basis of one bad game in the playoffs, then I just dont believe you are actually rooting for him to do well, and by extension for the knicks to do well.

      I’m not “condemning” him, I’m saying that he had a terrible game when many predicted he could dominate… I’m saying that I saw the same old Anthony out there.

      if he plays terrific the rest of the series, I promise I’ll defend him, but for that to happen he needs to play like ruruland thinks he will, and so far he has played like I think he does.

    238. johnlocke

      I think Atlanta fans are pretty damn happy they beat the Celtics. I also think Joe Johnson played good D on notorious playoff assassin and Knick killer Paul Pierce. So I’m happy with him…does that count? =)

      Bruno Almeida:
      ruruland, for example… Hawks fans are obviously happy because they won a huge game right now and Rondo will probably be suspended, giving the Hawks a huge advantage on a very winnable series.

      do you think the fans are happy with Joe Johnson’s effort, and are praising him?

      do you think they should overlook his pathetic game tonight because of what he’s done for the team?

      I seriously want to hear your take on this, a non-Melo subject.

    239. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: of course I’m interested! I have said it many times, the Knicks have to wait and try to get Amare’s value as high as possible, and try to luck out on a Gasol-like trade where someone really good falls to us on a very unlikely situation.

      and I do believe the Knicks can be a title team with Melo, just not the way it is right now with Amare f****** our cap space and adding close to nothing.

      but you take every single criticism of Melo to the heart… again, do you think Atlanta fans should be praising Joe Johnson after the stinker today? or that Boston fans should be happy with Rondo killing a 4th quarter comeback that could change the entire series and possibly the playoffs because of sheer immaturity?

      would you not be ok with Boston fans criticizing him, just like you aren’t when we criticize Carmelo?

      I think the criticism is fine if the context is applied. he missed shots he can make…. But in reality, having a player that creates post-fronts and weakside zones is a good thing… That’s the kind of value you get that the Joe Johnon’s of the world don’t provide. So, when he gets criticized when those things aren’t mentioned, I mention them.

    240. ruruland

      Will the Thrill:
      You really can’t figure out why? I think it’s obvious that people (including me) believe that that team will never win a championship. I am really worried about how Shumpert will come back, he really relied on his athleticism, and I’m not sure about him coming back from the tear. Are there any good examples of people coming back strong? (could be a dumb question)

      I have very little in common, as a fan with other fans, who believe his team will never win a championship.

    241. Owen

      “I don’t put Melo on an impossible pedestal. I try to show people how he can improve his teammates play even when his efficiency is middling, and how you can build a team where he both improves the efficiency of his teammates and has his own efficiency improved.”

      Perhaps you missed this part of Pelton’s article.

      “With another team already blessed with shot creators, like the Knicks, the value of Anthony’s usage might be limited.”

    242. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: I think the criticism is fine if the context is applied. he missed shots he can make…. But in reality, having a player that creates post-fronts and weakside zones is a good thing… That’s the kind of value you get that the Joe Johnon’s of the world don’t provide. So, when he gets criticized when those things aren’t mentioned, I mention them.

      I don’t know, I think Johnson does provide that too, the Celtics were clearly paying a lot of attention to him on defense, bad game or not.

      but is that enough?

      shouldn’t we criticize when a player whose main object on offense is to score does that terribly?

      I’m not saying everything Anthony did against the Heat was terrible, I’m just focusing on what he was supposed to be doing.

    243. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: I’m not “condemning” him, I’m saying that he had a terrible game when many predicted he could dominate… I’m saying that I saw the same old Anthony out there.

      if he plays terrific the rest of the series, I promise I’ll defend him, but for that to happen he needs to play like ruruland thinks he will, and so far he has played like I think he does.

      How many teams you think deploy those kinds of tactics against other players, normally?

      What the heat were doing to Melo is the equivalent of how the Nuggets defended Chris Paul in 2008 — trap, trap, trap, defend 30 feet out.

      Paul was awful because his teammates could not take advantage of Denver’s defensive tact.

    244. Bruno Almeida

      I love the way Conley and Gasol are playing right now, my god, this Memphis team can be scary good.

    245. max fisher-cohen

      ruru, My B) included the possibility that you are correct and the possibility that you are incorrect. As I’m sure you know, there is also a possibility that you are incorrect. We’ve gone back and forth about Melo a million times, about his potential, about his highs and his lows. As I wrote a few days ago, I’m on a 2 week hiatus from discussing whether or not Melo is a great player or just a good one, so we can rehash all the arguments about whether Melo is great or good or can be great or good again in about 10 days.

      By the way, Chris Webber is a great commentator.

    246. ruruland

      Owen:
      “I don’t put Melo on an impossible pedestal. I try to show people how he can improve his teammates play even when his efficiency is middling, and how you can build a team where he both improves the efficiency of his teammates and has his own efficiency improved.”

      Perhaps you missed this part of Pelton’s article.

      “With another team already blessed with shot creators, like the Knicks, the value of Anthony’s usage might be limited.”

      I don’t disagree with that, necessarily, but what kind of shot-creators are we talking about?

      Shot-creators that area also good passers? The kind that can decrease defensive attention on Melo and put him into assisted basket situations? If so, then we would Melo’s usage go down and his efficiency go up, perhaps significantly. We’d also see him increase his defensive intensity on a possessions basis — the guy we saw with Lin post-trade.

    247. JR Sec 112

      Will the Thrill:
      You really can’t figure out why? I think it’s obvious that people (including me) believe that that team will never win a championship. I am really worried about how Shumpert will come back, he really relied on his athleticism, and I’m not sure about him coming back from the tear. Are there any good examples of people coming back strong? (could be a dumb question)

      yeah, its way too early to give up on this team winning a championship. Heck, Lin’s only 23. This is the most promising team we’ve had in OVER A DECADE. Why give up on that? oh, and Tony Allen had a torn ACL – he seems to still be a pretty good defender.

    248. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: How many teams you think deploy those kinds of tactics against other players, normally?

      What the heat were doing to Melo is the equivalent of how the Nuggets defended Chris Paul in 2008 — trap, trap, trap, defend 30 feet out.

      Paul was awful because his teammates could not take advantage of Denver’s defensive tact.

      I agree, and this is not only on Carmelo, that’s why I said it numerous times that the loss wasn’t on him.

      but he didn’t play well, and that’s a fact, but you can’t seem to admit it other than saying “he missed shots he has the ability to make”, which means nothing… if Nick Young has the ability to make 18-footers, yet makes 1 and misses 10 “shots he can make”, does that make it a good performance?

      once in a million years he’ll make all those 10 shots and he’ll have one of those bizarre 35 point games, but that doesn’t mean he played well on the other 80 times it doesn’t happen.

    249. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen:
      ruru, My B) included the possibility that you are correct and the possibility that you are incorrect. As I’m sure you know, there is also a possibility that you are incorrect. We’ve gone back and forth about Melo a million times, about his potential, about his highs and his lows. As I wrote a few days ago, I’m on a 2 week hiatus from discussing whether or not Melo is a great player or just a good one, so we can rehash all the arguments about whether Melo is great or good or can be great or good again in about 10 days.

      By the way, Chris Webber is a great commentator.

      I agree on Webbe — so much better than Shaq (anyone else miss the glove?) I read the entirety of your post and understood what you meant, I just needed to correct the 45 win thing.

    250. Bruno Almeida

      max fisher-cohen:
      ruru, My B) included the possibility that you are correct and the possibility that you are incorrect. As I’m sure you know, there is also a possibility that you are incorrect. We’ve gone back and forth about Melo a million times, about his potential, about his highs and his lows. As I wrote a few days ago, I’m on a 2 week hiatus from discussing whether or not Melo is a great player or just a good one, so we can rehash all the arguments about whether Melo is great or good or can be great or good again in about 10 days.

      By the way, Chris Webber is a great commentator.

      really great, he, Kenny and Barkley are by far the best in the business imo.

    251. johnlocke

      Aren’t there like 2 current players that have done that … and 8 all time? Or am I missing something?

      Owen:
      Yeah, agree.

      Honestly, what I want from Melo is to have him actually scratch a superstar number into the book at basketball reference for a full season.

      If I see him put up .220 WS-48 next year and put something similar up in the playoffs, you will not hear a peep from me. It’s as simple as that.

    252. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:
      I love the way Conley and Gasol are playing right now, my god, this Memphis team can be scary good.

      They are my pick to meet LAL in the WCF. Simmons, too. I think they smack down OKC this year.

    253. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: I agree, and this is not only on Carmelo, that’s why I said it numerous times that the loss wasn’t on him.

      but he didn’t play well, and that’s a fact,but you can’t seem to admit it other than saying “he missed shots he has the ability to make”, which means nothing… if Nick Young has the ability to make 18-footers, yet makes 1 and misses 10 “shots he can make”, does that make it a good performance?

      once in a million years he’ll make all those 10 shots and he’ll have one of those bizarre 35 point games, but that doesn’t mean he played well on the other 80 times it doesn’t happen.

      I’ve already said he played poorly. But given the overall dialogue that’s out there, I don’t feel my time is best spent piling on — but providing context you almost never see.

    254. er

      Can we just agree that melo is a top 3 sf so at least a top fifteen player on the depth chart of the NBA and move on…we just gotta get the pieces together to win in the future

    255. johnlocke

      I could def.l see that…. their defense on the pick and roll is pretty damn good. Is Paul healthy? This is not playoff Chris Paul

      ruruland: They are my pick to meet LAL in the WCF. Simmons, too. I think they smack down OKC this year.

    256. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: They are my pick to meet LAL in the WCF. Simmons, too. I think they smack down OKC this year.

      Marc Gasol is just so good, man, I love that we got Chandler, but if we had the chance to get him as a free agent I’d be happier.

      Memphis x Lakers would be an insane matchup, Tony Allen against Kobe, Z-Bo and Marc against Bynum and Pau, Gay against Artest, it could really go either way.

    257. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      I could def.l see that…. their defense on the pick and roll is pretty damn good. Is Paul healthy? This is not playoff Chris Paul

      Paul can struggle against physical, long defenders (Dhantay Jones was very effective) — I haven’t been watching tonight have they trapped him a lot?

    258. Bruno Almeida

      johnlocke:
      I could def.l see that…. their defense on the pick and roll is pretty damn good. Is Paul healthy? This is not playoff Chris Paul

      the Clippers supporting cast just isn’t there yet, Memphis’ defense is so good and their offense has been awesome, so there hasn’t been any transition opportunities for Blake and DJ to thrive… they have to do it on the half-court everytime, and there it’s Paul against the world.

      Randy Foye is a scrub, Butler is not good anymore, and the Clippers bench is pretty weak.

    259. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: Marc Gasol is just so good, man, I love that we got Chandler, but if we had the chance to get him as a free agent I’d be happier.

      Memphis x Lakers would be an insane matchup, Tony Allen against Kobe, Z-Bo and Marc against Bynum and Pau, Gay against Artest, it could really go either way.

      Gasol and Chandler would actually complement each other in a few ways.

      They play so physically — inside-out, coherent offense. They are built for the playoffs.

    260. 2FOR18

      ruruland: I came here when you couldn’t find but maybe one or two people defending the constant Melo attacks on a given day. I’ve slightly moved the meter because I’ve introduced concepts to this board that people weren’t talking about much (or at all) before.

      Why do you feel that this is your responsibility.

    261. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Paul can struggle against physical, long defenders (Dhantay Jones was very effective) — I haven’t been watching tonight have they trapped him a lot?

      they haven’t needed to do so yet, their team defense is so good that they can defend the Clippers normally and still force them into terrible shots.

    262. max fisher-cohen

      ruruland: They are my pick to meet LAL in the WCF. Simmons, too. I think they smack down OKC this year.

      They have to get through the spurs first. I know they beat San Antonio last year, but SAS is MUCH better this year. Ginobili’s healthy, upgraded big time with Jackson over Jefferson, Danny Green is a full sized version of George Hill, Splitter is a ton better, and they added Leonard. Plus, Parker is having a career year.

    263. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: the Clippers supporting cast just isn’t there yet, Memphis’ defense is so good and their offense has been awesome, so there hasn’t been any transition opportunities for Blake and DJ to thrive… they have to do it on the half-court everytime, and there it’s Paul against the world.

      Randy Foye is a scrub, Butler is not good anymore, and the Clippers bench is pretty weak.

      Chauncey would help a lot there. Butler really fell off though.

    264. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Gasol and Chandler would actually complement each other in a few ways.

      They play so physically — inside-out, coherent offense. They are built for the playoffs.

      they definitely would… getting a Marc Gasol type would surely push us into at least ECF range and very possibly finals and true contending status.

    265. JR Sec 112

      er:
      Can we just agree that melo is a top 3 sf so at least a top fifteen player on the depth chart of the NBA and move on…we just gotta get the pieces together to win in the future

      Ha. I think first you need to get consensus that he is better than Gallo.

    266. Bruno Almeida

      max fisher-cohen: They have to get through the spurs first. I know they beat San Antonio last year, but SAS is MUCH better this year. Ginobili’s healthy, upgraded big time with Jackson over Jefferson, Danny Green is a full sized version of George Hill, Splitter is a ton better, and they added Leonard. Plus, Parker is having a career year.

      yeah, San Antonio just moves the ball beautifully, and with Ginobili playing healthy they would need to keep Allen on him, and rely on Conley to guard Parker.

      the way Conley is playing superbly, I still give the advantage to Memphis (Bonner, Blair, Splitter and Diaw can’t possibly keep up with Gasol), but it will surely be tougher.

    267. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: they definitely would… getting a Marc Gasol type would surely push us into at least ECF range and very possibly finals and true contending status.

      Imagine somehow moving Amar’e contract for a spread 4 and finding out that the Jordan kid is as good as he looks.

    268. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen: They have to get through the spurs first. I know they beat San Antonio last year, but SAS is MUCH better this year. Ginobili’s healthy, upgraded big time with Jackson over Jefferson, Danny Green is a full sized version of George Hill, Splitter is a ton better, and they added Leonard. Plus, Parker is having a career year.

      Yeah, I don’t know what to think about SAS anymore. Pop is just amazing, though. Diaw??

    269. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Imagine somehow moving Amar’e contract for a spread 4 and finding out that the Jordan kid is as good as he looks.

      first Woodson would have to actually give him a chance… but yes, it’s a nice possibility.

    270. Owen

      “If so, then we would Melo’s usage go down and his efficiency go up, perhaps significantly.”

      You know, the only time Melo’s efficiency went up this year was when his usage spiked with Lin and Amare were out of the lineup. Other than that he was pretty bad this year.

      Outside of the statistics, the most troubling thing about Melo is how mediocre he is without the ball in his hands.

      I have never thought he was a complete basketball player. And he really has done nothing to change my mind.

    271. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: first Woodson would have to actually give him a chance… but yes, it’s a nice possibility.

      Anyone know JJ contract? On year left on rookie deal?

    272. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Yeah, I don’t know what to think about SAS anymore. Pop is just amazing, though. Diaw??

      even Diaw has been a net plus so far, he’s a really good passer and he’s smart, so he fits pretty well with Duncan and Parker.

      the depth they have on the front court is pretty good, but not good enough to keep up with Gasol / Z-Bo or Bynum / Pau, in my opinion

    273. yellowboy90

      I still do not get why teams do not take a chance on players like Speights or Hickson. You need role players like that. I guess is all about opportunity and a lot of coaching. It why I wondered why you buy out a player like Corey Brewer but keep a player like Balkman, Brown, and etc.

    274. ruruland

      Owen:
      “If so, then we would Melo’s usage go down and his efficiency go up, perhaps significantly.”

      You know, the only time Melo’s efficiency went up this year was when his usage spiked with Lin and Amare were out of the lineup. Other than that he was pretty bad this year.

      Outside of the statistics, the most troubling thing about Melo is how mediocre he is without the ball in his hands.

      I have never thought he was a complete basketball player. And he really has done nothing to change my mind.

      Yeah, but SSS. Look at his assisted basket rates/efg% correlation going back to his early days like I’ve talked about so often. yes, he needs to the ball to develop a rhythm, and I think he was so out of rhythm with Lin is those 7-8 games.

      Look at how he played as a spot-up shooter with the Olympic teams.

      I’m really excited to see Lin and Melo develop some chemistry…. They can both make each other much better, but it takes time.

      Iverson was all over the place as a player, but after about 80 games together he posted a 600 TS (over 53 games)– and that’s with Iverson as a high-usage ball-handler and Melo playing a lot of off ball, catch and shoots and stuff under the basket.

    275. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: even Diaw has been a net plus so far, he’s a really good passer and he’s smart, so he fits pretty well with Duncan and Parker.

      the depth they have on the front court is pretty good, but not good enough to keep up with Gasol / Z-Bo or Bynum / Pau, in my opinion

      I agree.

    276. Bruno Almeida

      the main problem with the Clippers right now is that their defense is secretly terrible…

      Foye is terrible, Blake is terrible and Butler has no legs anymore, they can’t stop anyone.

      Memphis is not a very efficient team and they are getting quality looks every time down the court.

      I severely underrated the impact this would have on the series when I thought the Clippers had a good chance of winning.

    277. ruruland

      yellowboy90:
      I still do not get why teams do not take a chance on players like Speights or Hickson. You need role players like that. I guess is all about opportunity and a lot of coaching. It why I wondered why you buy out a player like Corey Brewer but keep a player like Balkman, Brown, and etc.

      I love Speights.

    278. Owen

      Well, playoffs I don’t know. I want him to play well in the playoffs but obviously the competition gets tougher….

      But superstar level production is usually in the + .225 area or thereabouts with high usage….

      Honestly, if he cracked .200 I would be ecstatic.

      Basically, I’d just like him to actually be playing really well by some objective measure….

      johnlocke:
      Aren’t there like 2 current players that have done that … and 8 all time? Or am I missing something?

    279. Bruno Almeida

      3 straight 3-pointers by Conley… amazing, he’s murdering Paul and guarding him one on one on defense.

    280. er

      Owen how many “complete” players are there in the NBA 5 maybe? so hes not top five you are acting like people are saying hes the best player in the world
      1.Lebron
      2.Kobe
      3.Duncan(sans ft percentage)
      4.CP3
      maybe someone else

      Owen:
      “If so, then we would Melo’s usage go down and his efficiency go up, perhaps significantly.”

      You know, the only time Melo’s efficiency went up this year was when his usage spiked with Lin and Amare were out of the lineup. Other than that he was pretty bad this year.

      Outside of the statistics, the most troubling thing about Melo is how mediocre he is without the ball in his hands.

      I have never thought he was a complete basketball player. And he really has done nothing to change my mind.

    281. Owen

      Losing Billups was terrible for the Clippers. Billups, Griffin, Jordan and Paul was a team that actually had a shot.

      They also filled the roster out with some serious dreck. Butler, Foye, Young, those guys are so unimpressive….

    282. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Losing Billups was terrible for the Clippers. Billups, Griffin, Jordan and Paul was a team that actually had a shot.

      They also filled the roster out with some serious dreck. Butler, Foye, Young, those guys are so unimpressive….

      yeah, getting Nick Young was pathetic, the guy is useless and thinks he’s motherf**** Michael Jordan.

    283. max fisher-cohen

      Complete isn’t the right word since it implies you have to do everything well. How about championship centerpiece players?

      In that case, in no particular order:

      1) Lebron
      2) Dirk
      3) Paul
      4) Howard (when motivated and shooting 60% rather than 12% on free throws)
      5) Dwyane Wade
      6) Kevin Durant

    284. yellowboy90

      ruruland: Imagine somehow moving Amar’e contract for a spread 4 and finding out that the Jordan kid is as good as he looks.

      Jordan reminds me of a mix between Bynum and Hibbert maybe a little more athletic. It is nice to have a center that can hit a jumper off the PnR because as we seen you can pick up a charge real easy when you can’t shoot. No knock on Chandler but it is what is.

      Also, having Jorts lose 20-25 lbs would be nice. Hopefully the weight loss will lead to some improve quickness which would help guard the quicker 4s.

      Add a vet like Jaminson or get lucky finding a player to replace Novak if he leaves and I think the Knicks might have something.

    285. jon abbey

      I still think Chris Paul is overrated, but man is Memphis loaded. I had SA beating them in the second round, but would love to be wrong about that.

    286. Owen

      “Yeah, but SSS. Look at his assisted basket rates/efg% correlation going back to his early days like I’ve talked about so often. yes, he needs to the ball to develop a rhythm, and I think he was so out of rhythm with Lin is those 7-8 games.”

      I mean you just go round and round with the excuses and rationalizations.

      I hope Melo plays great tomorrow.

      Really, I hope for a win win. Melo plays great. And Melo’s statistics are great. And the Knicks win.

      Then we can both declare victory…..

    287. Bruno Almeida

      I still think Popovich should be coach of the year (as he should be pretty much every year if it was a fair award), but Lionel Hollins REALLY deserves consideration

    288. Owen

      Memphis is loaded. I have to say, watching Randolph since he left has been a little bit of a revelation. His season last year was nothing I would have expected.

      As for Chris Paul, well, I will defer to your judgment in point guards, but yeah, overrated seems a little, I don’t know….

      jon abbey:
      I still think Chris Paul is overrated, but man is Memphis loaded. I had SA beating them in the second round, but would love to be wrong about that.

    289. jon abbey

      Owen:

      As for Chris Paul, well, I will defer to your judgment in point guards, but yeah, overrated seems a little, I don’t know….

      yeah, it’s hard to explain, but to me he’s not in the top 5 players in the league (LeBron, Howard, Durant, a healthy Derrick Rose, and Wade). he has a little bit of what Pierce used to do pre-Garnett, which is pile up big numbers by taking off huge portions of the game and then going really hard for stretches. it mostly worked this regular season, but I don’t think a top 5 guy in the league should do that. he’s towards the top of the next tier, though.

      anyway, pretty much everyone is flawed the closer you look at them, I guess. but I’ve said this here before multiple times, I’m not even sure I would have traded Rondo straight up for him (I love Rondo, although he seems like maybe his off the court demeanor takes away from his spectacular game a bit).

    290. hoolahoop

      2FOR18: Why do you feel that this is your responsibility.

      You’re crazy. Melo had a large number of fanboys from day one. Still does, but maybe less now. They defend everything Melo.
      But, you brought it to another level, to the point that you cannot have a real discussion. I think you’re a nice guy, but the Melo thing is way over the top.

    291. hoolahoop

      Ruru, like I’ve said before, defending everything Melo does makes you, and Melo, a lightning rod for criticism.

    292. Owen

      “which is pile up big numbers by taking off huge portions of the game and then going really hard for stretches. it mostly worked this regular season, but I don’t think a top 5 guy in the league should do that.”

      Yeah, he had a really interesting interview with the Sports Guy, basically saying that he spends the first half of the game setting his teammates up and getting them their shots and numbers. And then in the second half he starts doing his own thing. And crunch time is all him.

      He also said he doesn’t drive the lane as much as he did early in his career, to keep healthy.

      I love Rondo too. Great defender. Amazing player. But I think definitely think Paul is the best pg in the league by a substantial margin. IMO of course….

    293. er

      how is durant a center piece championship player?

      max fisher-cohen:
      Complete isn’t the right word since it implies you have to do everything well. How about championship centerpiece players?

      In that case, in no particular order:

      1) Lebron
      2) Dirk
      3) Paul
      4) Howard (when motivated and shooting 60% rather than 12% on free throws)
      5) Dwyane Wade
      6) Kevin Durant

    294. ruruland

      hoolahoop:
      Ruru, like I’ve said before, defending everything Melo does makes you, and Melo, a lightning rod for criticism.

      Let’s test this theory out, shall we. I won’t post on Melo until the playoffs are over.

    295. Owen

      Did you catch last night?

      He is pretty good, Durant….

      er: how is durant a center piece championship player?

    296. johnlocke

      there’s this guy named Kobe bryant who has 5 championships and is on a title contender this year also.

      re: Chris Paul, stylistically I’d prefer a bigger more athletic pt guard (Rose, Deron, Westbrooke a couple yrs from now), but statistically the guy does no wrong. He’s the most complete pt guard in the league by a good margin. The issue is that non-high scoring PT guards are really limited by the surrounding roster to a larger extent than say a score-first SG or SF. Healthy CP3 on a good team is a scary prospect. They lost their starting SG and play no defense and battled the Lakers all season for the Pacific.

      max fisher-cohen:
      Complete isn’t the right word since it implies you have to do everything well. How about championship centerpiece players?

      In that case, in no particular order:

      1) Lebron
      2) Dirk
      3) Paul
      4) Howard (when motivated and shooting 60% rather than 12% on free throws)
      5) Dwyane Wade
      6) Kevin Durant

    297. johnlocke

      Even if he drops 60 in game 2?

      ruruland: Let’s test this theory out, shall we. I won’t post on Melo until the playoffs are over.

    298. Owen

      Wait, yes, this is a great idea. I wholeheartedly endorse.

      And I will not bash him, I promise….

      Seriously, this is a fantastic idea….

      er:
      lol no it wont be the same

    299. er

      who will you argue with ? hahaha

      Owen:
      Wait, yes, this is a great idea. I wholeheartedly endorse.

      And I will not bash him, I promise….

      Seriously, this is a fantastic idea….

    300. jon abbey

      Owen:
      “which is pile up big numbers by taking off huge portions of the game and then going really hard for stretches. it mostly worked this regular season, but I don’t think a top 5 guy in the league should do that.”

      Yeah, he had a really interesting interview with the Sports Guy, basically saying that he spends the first half of the game setting his teammates up and getting them their shots and numbers. And then in the second half he starts doing his own thing. And crunch time is all him.

      He also said he doesn’t drive the lane as much as he did early in his career, to keep healthy.

      I love Rondo too. Great defender. Amazing player. But I think definitely think Paul is the best pg in the league by a substantial margin. IMO of course….

      he’s doing it again now, it’s amazing how often he’s done this this year. to me, it’s a bit of fool’s gold, but he keeps pulling it off…

    301. johnlocke

      Nick Young: “Excuse me?”

      Owen:
      God Young is bad….

      So bad….

      What was that fast break bs….

      Owen:
      God Young is bad….

      So bad….

      What was that fast break bs….

    302. ruruland

      Owen:
      Did you catch last night?

      He is pretty good, Durant….

      Negative ws/48 for Durant last night, fyi. but that rim treated him nice at the end.

    303. Owen

      “he’s doing it again now, it’s amazing how often he’s done this this year. to me, it’s a bit of fool’s gold, but he keeps pulling it off…”

      It’s a pretty questionable playoff strategy….

      How good could Blake Griffin be if he could hit foul shots…

      Who had that steal?

    304. johnlocke

      This would seriously be the worst collapse I have ever seen live in the playoffs….maybe beats out Lakers Portland….Clippers were DEAD. WTH

    305. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Chris Paul’s value comes from his net possessions. He’s ridiculously good at stealing and not turning the ball over.

      Here’s a comparison of TOV% and STL% from this season:

      10.8//3.8 Paul
      16.7//1.8 D. Williams
      17.3//1.4 Sessions
      22.8//2.6 Rondo
      24.2//3.1 Kidd
      27.1//1.0 Nash

      Yes, he has the lowest TOV% (by a large margin) and the highest STL% (by a large margin). Second in WS/48. He’s the only point guard on that list with a positive net possessions figure. How is he overrated?

    306. ruruland

      Owen:
      JohnLocke-

      Seriously, let’s get behind this idea…..

      This is a good thing…..

      Ok, we get it. It’s a deal.

    307. Owen

      THCJ – I think it’s more an argument over whether he is a top 5 player or 5-10. So overrated is probably not exactly what he means.

      But I am with you….

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Chris Paul’s value comes from his net possessions. He’s ridiculously good at stealing and not turning the ball over.

      Here’s a comparison of TOV% and STL% from this season:

      10.8//3.8Paul
      16.7//1.8D. Williams
      17.3//1.4Sessions
      22.8//2.6Rondo
      24.2//3.1Kidd
      27.1//1.0Nash

      Yes, he has the lowest TOV% (by a large margin) and the highest STL% (by a large margin). Second in WS/48. He’s the only point guard on that list with a positive net possessions figure. How is he overrated?

    308. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Chris Paul’s value comes from his net possessions. He’s ridiculously good at stealing and not turning the ball over.

      Here’s a comparison of TOV% and STL% from this season:

      10.8//3.8Paul
      16.7//1.8D. Williams
      17.3//1.4Sessions
      22.8//2.6Rondo
      24.2//3.1Kidd
      27.1//1.0Nash

      Yes, he has the lowest TOV% (by a large margin) and the highest STL% (by a large margin). Second in WS/48. He’s the only point guard on that list with a positive net possessions figure. How is he overrated?

      How is any of that related to the points on Paul we were talking about? Yes, those things are true and it in some ways bolsters the idea that Paul is a great player, but he’s quite passive for the first 3 quarters of the game.. How does this affect the game in a positive or negative way?

      We all have access to the Pro Basketball Reference website.

    309. Owen

      I mean a game like this, where the Knicks are doing something freaking amazing, with Nick Young the star….

      ;-)

    310. Owen

      I think Reggie Evans is the secret sauce like David Berri has been saying for all these years….

    311. ruruland

      I think this needs to be mentioned one more time on this board before the next possession. The Knicks were whistled for 15 straight fouls in a 6 minute stretch in the second quarter last night(starting from the point they were down one point).

      It resulted in 18 free throws and 6 turnovers. I very much doubt something like that has ever happened before.

    312. Bruno Almeida

      my god, what a win by the Clippers, never thought the Grizzlies could choke this one up.

      the Clippers now have a big, big chance to pull this off,

    313. 2FOR18

      ruru, NY fans boo their players when they play poorly or don’t appear to be giving full effort, and we cheer them when they play great and the team wins. It’s not the personal thing you make it out to be.

    314. Owen

      that is a bit of a WOW joke, but Evans was incredible, and is definitely better than people realize…

      Also, re Paul. When you listen to him talk, I don’t think there is a guy I have ever listened to who makes more sense about basketball….

      I have a bit of a man crush on Paul, always have….

      Owen:
      I think Reggie Evans is the secret sauce like David Berri has been saying for all these years….

    315. ruruland

      2FOR18:
      ruru, NY fans boo their players when they play poorly or don’t appear to be giving full effort, and we cheer them when they play great and the team wins.It’s not the personal thing you make it out to be.

      I hear but I can’t respond to this for hopefully another couple of weeks at least.

    316. er

      lmao @ asshole i kinda agree with you but he has hit the shot so many times in his career

      johnlocke:
      Rudy Gay is an asshole..dribbled out the clock to take a contested 2

    317. yellowboy90

      Wow you will not believe this. I turned away and the Clips where down 20+ points and then I turn back and before I do I say “best comeback ever” the picture shows up and I look and the is Craig interviewing Paul saying the same thing. LOL. Crazy.

    318. jon abbey

      er:
      memphis is done i dont see how you recover from this

      it’s just one game, Caron Butler fractured his hand and Memphis is way deeper. Memphis did this last year (except Gay), they’ve got playoff experience to fall back on.

    319. johnlocke

      I think I’d rather have us lose by 30 than watch the massive choke job the Grizzlies just pulled. Gotta love sports. Good night folks

    320. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      that is a bit of a WOW joke, but Evans was incredible, and is definitely better than people realize…

      Also, re Paul. When you listen to him talk, I don’t think there is a guy I have ever listened to who makes more sense about basketball….

      I have a bit of a man crush on Paul, always have….

      yeah, he’s a really, really smart player, really above the curve.

      I still can’t believe what just happpened, I went to take a bath when it was like a 15 point advantage Memphis and Gilbert freaking Arenas playing, and came back with the Clippers up by one lol.

    321. ruruland

      Owen:
      that is a bit of a WOW joke, but Evans was incredible, and is definitely better than people realize…

      Also, re Paul. When you listen to him talk, I don’t think there is a guy I have ever listened to who makes more sense about basketball….

      I have a bit of a man crush on Paul, always have….

      Better at what? He’s a great offensive rebounder and often a defensive liability, zero offensive skills and doesn’t need to be guarded until the ball goes up. He’s a nice player to have only because he’s a great rebounder.

    322. Owen

      Arenas was hired on the suggestion of a blogger….

      I wonder what it’s like on Shades of Blue right now….

    323. ruruland

      jon abbey: it’s just one game, Caron Butler fractured his hand and Memphis is way deeper. Memphis did this last year (except Gay), they’ve got playoff experience to fall back on.

      yeah, I think they’ll be fine, but we’re talking about the NBA playoffs here. You never really know how a team will react.

    324. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Better at what? He’s a great offensive rebounder and often a defensive liability, zero offensive skills and doesn’t need to be guarded until the ball goes up.He’s a nice player to have only because he’s a great rebounder.

      I agree, but I don’t think he’s that bad of a defender… in some matchups his size and strength can be pretty useful, and he’s smart enough to stay mostly in the right places.

      he’s better than Kenyon Martin, for me.

    325. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      Arenas was hired on the suggestion of a blogger….

      I wonder what it’s like on Shades of Blue right now….

      it’s probably something like “collective suicide” mood…

    326. 2FOR18

      ruruland: I hear but I can’t respond to this for hopefully another couple of weeks at least.

      lol, let’s hope not until after the finals

    327. er

      true but this was awful….that butler injury could be huge

      jon abbey: it’s just one game, Caron Butler fractured his hand and Memphis is way deeper. Memphis did this last year (except Gay), they’ve got playoff experience to fall back on.

    328. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      No live threads…

      me, I’d be chain smoking and drinking so heavily I wouldn’t have hands available to write anything.

    329. Bruno Almeida

      lol, just saw now that McGee went to center court to try to see the replay of his missed dunk over Gasol instead of huddling up during the time out.

      my god, is this guy clueless.

    330. er

      that is the saddest thing about this series we are not anywhere near 100% as a team

      Chandler
      baron
      lin
      stat
      jefferies

      on and on

      jon abbey:
      Tyson still isn’t himself, dunno what you’re smoking but send some my way.

    331. Spree8nyk8

      jon abbey:
      Tyson still isn’t himself, dunno what you’re smoking but send some my way.

      I don’t smoke…..

      …..I use a vaporizer like a grown up!

    332. Spree8nyk8

      i don’t give a fuck. I’m not gonna sit here and just agree that because we lost 1 game horrifically that the seasons over. Just can’t do it. Not saying we are winning the series (although unlike most of you I think it is at least possible). But we are going to make it a series.

    333. er

      I share your defiant optimism cheers…how ever blindly I’m still in it to win it

      Spree8nyk8:
      i don’t give a fuck.I’m not gonna sit here and just agree that because we lost 1 game horrifically that the seasons over.Just can’t do it.Not saying we are winning the series (although unlike most of you I think it is at least possible).But we are going to make it a series.

    334. Nick C.

      ruruland:
      I think this needs to be mentioned one more time on this board before the next possession. The Knicks were whistled for 15 straight fouls in a 6 minute stretch in the second quarter last night(starting from the point they were down one point).

      It resulted in 18 free throws and 6 turnovers. I very much doubt something like that has ever happened before.

      </blockquote
      Just reposting this after having to drive in and hear the same BS myth that's being put out there about how the Heat dominated and Sir Whiplash.

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