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Saturday, April 19, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Sep 22 2012)

  • [New York Times] Prokhorov Talks of Title at Unveiling of Barclays Center (Sat, 22 Sep 2012 05:48:02 GMT)
    The Nets held a ceremonial opening at their new arena in Brooklyn, where their owner, Mikhail D. Prokhorov, predicted a championship within three years.

  • [New York Times] Unveiling of Barclays Center (Sat, 22 Sep 2012 03:27:37 GMT)
    A ribbon-cutting ceremony for the new home of the Nets was held in Brooklyn on Friday.

  • 38 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Sep 22 2012)

    1. BigBlueAL

      @RicBucher

      NBA news: Rasheed Wallace working out at NYK practice facility w/Camby and Kurt Thomas. Knicks’ considering.

    2. er

      if we signed sheed we could have a goon line like in hockey.

      Sheed, KT, Tyson, Brewer, and one other guy but there purpose would be to just foul everyone real hard

    3. d-mar

      Wow, if we could grab T-Mac and Sheed we’d have the makings of a championship lineup – circa the year 2001:

      PG Kidd
      SG T-Mac
      C Camby
      PF K. Thomas
      SF Sheed (what are you, high, he’s a PF!)

    4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man:
      Even coach-killing, me-first malcontents are entitled to their opinion.

      I’ll respond on Marbury’s behalf:

      If he didn’t play the way how he played, he wouldn’t have gotten no max contract. You can talk about whatever you wanna talk about him, because he got maxed. He’s a max player. Don’t get mad at him, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.

    5. thenoblefacehumper

      Wait, so they really think Sheed has more left in the tank than Extra E? That’s downright insane. They’re looking into Sheed at a position we have depth in already, but won’t look into Extra E at a position(s) we could use more help in.

    6. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I continue to be amazed at how Extra E can’t even get an invitation to training camp. Harsh. Whoever pointed it out, though, is likely correct that Woody didn’t coach him, so Woody isn’t invested in him. And Walsh was probably the guy who brought him in, not Grunwald, so Grunwald is not invested either.

    7. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’ll respond on Marbury’s behalf:If he didn’t play the way how he played, he wouldn’t have gotten no max contract. You can talk about whatever you wanna talk about him, because he got maxed. He’s a max player. Don’t get mad at him, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.

      Some quotes just never get old!

    8. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man: Some quotes just never get old!

      It’s funny how it’s actually Marbury saying, “If I didn’t score so many points, I wouldn’t have been maxed,” which is essentially my argument against Amar’e and Carmelo as max players, as well. Yes, they’re maxed, but so is Brook Lopez — front offices have not yet learned, but yes, they’re maxed.

    9. thenoblefacehumper

      Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, I continue to be amazed at how Extra E can’t even get an invitation to training camp. Harsh. Whoever pointed it out, though, is likely correct that Woody didn’t coach him, so Woody isn’t invested in him. And Walsh was probably the guy who brought him in, not Grunwald, so Grunwald is not invested either.

      That makes sense. But unless Grunwald doesn’t have access to the internet or something, he can see that this is a guy who can be picked up for nothing and is one season removed from a 56% TS. I can’t imagine any of Copeland/White/C. Smith have a better shot at success.

    10. er

      difference he was a point guard

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s funny how it’s actually Marbury saying, “If I didn’t score so many points, I wouldn’t have been maxed,” which is essentially my argument against Amar’e and Carmelo as max players, as well. Yes, they’re maxed, but so is Brook Lopez — front offices have not yet learned, but yes, they’re maxed.

    11. Z-man

      The real shame is that LeBron only can make $20 million or so when he’s worth $50 million or more.

      I can’t disagree with your premise that Amare and Melo are overpaid, but I wouldn’t put them in the same category as guys like Lopez, Rashard Lewis, Boozer, or even Joe Johnson. This is also an entertainment business, and Melo sells tickets (at home and on the road) and merchandise on a max player level. Amare was a gamble made to lure LeBron (probably a dumb one) and also an attempt to not come up empty in the biggest FA summer in a while. Melo could probably be moved for max-level assets for the life of his contract, but not Amare, so I would argue that Melo is more of a max player than Amare.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Melo’s much better than Amar’e is (at least in the last two years), and he’s better than everyone on that list, maybe except for Boozer. You may disagree with Berri’s player evaluation, but his work on ticket sales and “star” players is much easier to swallow. He’s argued that “star” players may lead to increased sales on the road, but only show a short-term increase in ticket sales for the home team unless the team starts winning a lot. I don’t think Melo does a thing for the box office beyond his contribution to a middling weak-conference team.

    13. ruruland

      thenoblefacehumper: That makes sense. But unless Grunwald doesn’t have access to the internet or something, he can see that this is a guy who can be picked up for nothing and is one season removed from a 56% TS. I can’t imagine any of Copeland/White/C. Smith have a better shot at success.

      They are still waiting for Kenyon Martin to change his mind, which he will if LAL or SA or whatever other non-Miami contender passes on him for above vet min/the end.

    14. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Melo’s much better than Amar’e is (at least in the last two years), and he’s better than everyone on that list, maybe except for Boozer. You may disagree with Berri’s player evaluation, but his work on ticket sales and “star” players is much easier to swallow. He’s argued that “star” players may lead to increased sales on the road, but only show a short-term increase in ticket sales for the home team unless the team starts winning a lot. I don’t think Melo does a thing for the box office beyond his contribution to a middling weak-conference team.

      First, there are ticket sales and there are overpriced ticket sales. The Knicks have raised prices dramatically sicnd the signings and are still selling out, which doesn’t happen unless they either win a lot or have star power. Despite their high WP48 IQ, nobody’s talking about Denver.

      If your premise is either that Faried and Harden are worth max money (or more this coming year than Amare and Melo,) or that the team would win more games this year with them instead of Amare and Melo, I vehemently disagree. If it is that they are better value for, say, half the money, so that you could fill out the roster with better players under the cap and would still have draft picks to play with, that is logical to me.

      I really think that this year is the one that will determine whether Melo, and to a lesser degree, Amare, was worth the max. If they make the ECF, the answer is surely yes. The big thing for me is that their contracts all expire at the same time.

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      That was excellent anecdotal analysis, Z-man. I think you should read the Berri article in the peer-reviewed Journal of Sports Economics. Here’s the name:

      Schmidt, Martin B. and David J. Berri.(2006) “What Takes Them Out to the Ball Game?”
      Journal of Sports Economics, 7, n2; (May): 222-233.

      The Knicks would immediately be a better team with Kenneth Faried instead of Amar’e Stoudemire, even at the same price. If you’re that blind to star power, I just don’t know what to say to you.

    16. johnno

      And one more thing to all of you who don’t accept THCJ’s opinions — whether founded or unfounded, supported or unsupported, supportable or unsupportable, sensible or ridiculous — as absolute fact, HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE THE WORLD’S FOREMOST AUTHORITY ON BASKETBALL!!! HE IS THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ!!! Seriously, why does anyone even bother reading anything that that $#@-hole writes or arguing with or responding to him? You’re only going to get cursed at, abused and ridiculed.

    17. Juany8

      johnno:
      And one more thing to all of you who don’t accept THCJ’s opinions — whether founded or unfounded, supported or unsupported, supportable or unsupportable, sensible or ridiculous — as absolute fact, HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE THE WORLD’S FOREMOST AUTHORITY ON BASKETBALL!!!HE IS THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ!!! Seriously, why does anyone even bother reading anything that that $#@-hole writes or arguing with or responding to him?You’re only going to get cursed at, abused and ridiculed.

      Honestly? It’s kind of funny to think that he might be serious and that he actually gets offended when people suggest that someone like Dirk is better than Faried. There are literally zero people currently being paid by the NBA who believe that’s even a discussion worth having, yet he presents Faried’s stardom as an obvious fact in the face of staggering amounts of evidence against this. Of course, if you believe all basketball knowledge can be derived from a silly box score, it’s really easy to ignore Faried’s faults and even easier to ignore Dirk’s strengths.

      As it is, I’m starting to think the whole “Wins Produced” movement is some kind of massive troll effort/experiment. I mean, no one who’s ever done any kind of serious research would go about calling people idiots for disagreeing with the major assumptions WP makes, yet Berri (and disciples like THCJ) actually takes it for granted that Wins Produced doesn’t have any major sources of error, even though it’s a freaking linear regression metric! Where’s the error analysis on the box score numbers? Where is the empirical evidence that team stats on a team level apply equally on an individual level? Wages of Wins is a joke as far as research is concerned, and it’s hard to believe Berry is truly oblivious to that fact. More likely he’s doing it to piss people off.

    18. johnno

      But here’s the problem — he hijacks every interesting/fun discussion or debate and tries to turn it into some exercise in vitriolic name-calling, regradless of how nonsensical his position is. I for one wish that everyone would simply ignore him so that he might just go away and not come back. Others might disagree with me, but I think that that would be a massive improvement to this site.

    19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Honestly? It’s kind of funny to think that he might be serious and that he actually gets offended when people suggest thatsomeone like Dirk is better than Faried. There are literally zero people currently being paid by the NBA who believe that’s even a discussion worth having, yet he presents Faried’s stardom as an obvious fact in the face of staggering amounts of evidence against this. Of course, if you believe all basketball knowledge can be derived from a silly box score, it’s really easy to ignore Faried’s faults and even easier to ignore Dirk’s strengths.

      Do you know how long it took Major League Baseball front offices to begin to employ sabermetrics in decision making? Your argument that because WP48 is not “mainstream” it is clearly incorrect is pure horseshit.

    20. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      johnno:
      But here’s the problem — he hijacks every interesting/fun discussion or debate and tries to turn it into some exercise in vitriolic name-calling, regradless of how nonsensical his position is.I for one wish that everyone would simply ignore him so that he might just go away and not come back.Others might disagree with me, but I think that that would be a massive improvement to this site.

      Nonsense because you disagree?

    21. johnno

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Nonsense because you disagree?

      See how clever and insidious he is? He’s trying to lure me into responding to him, but I’m not going to. I’m going to ignore him. Hmm, hmm, hmmm, is someone talking to me???

    22. Z-man

      While I have had my differences with THCJ, I certainly wasn’t offended by anything he wrote in his thread. Re: Faried vs. Amare, I very much disagree with him, mainly because he has implied before that Amare is over the hill at age 29, but more importantly because he thinks that even at his peak, Amare was never close to being the player that Faried already is.

      I think the jury is still out with Faried. He was unleashed at the perfect time in the perfect year. Let’s see if he keeps up the lofty numbers or if he goes the way of DeJuan Blair. As for Amare, if he can return to averaging 24+pts per 36 on a .600+ TS at a usage of over 27%, while improving marginally as a rebounder and defender, I can live with his making max money. He has definitely underperformed during the last 1 1/2 years by max standards

    23. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Do you know how long it took Major League Baseball front offices to begin to employ sabermetrics in decision making? Your argument that because WP48 is not “mainstream” it is clearly incorrect is pure horseshit.

      So why does Daryl Morey not use it? Or the Mavericks? Or Celtics, Lakers, Heat, Spurs? Stop making up dumb strawmen to argue against. If even ONE GM in the league seemed to base his decisions on WP, I might give it some credibility, but absolutely no one uses it. Furthermore, the very best and brightest basketball minds in the league seem to pay less than zero attention to it. But you know what, if the Timberwolves and Nuggets do come out as surprise contenders this year, I might give you some credit. Of course when they inevitably fail, it’ll be because of every reason under the sun EXCEPT that WP is fatally flawed….

    24. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Z-man:
      While I have had my differences with THCJ, I certainly wasn’t offended by anything he wrote in his thread. Re: Faried vs. Amare, I very much disagree with him, mainly because he has implied before that Amare is over the hill at age 29, but more importantly because he thinks that even at his peak, Amare was never close to being the player that Faried already is.

      I think the jury is still out with Faried. He was unleashed at the perfect time in the perfect year. Let’s see if he keeps up the lofty numbers or if he goes the way

      I never said that Amar’e has never been as good as Faried is now, even if he has a much lower WP48 number, even in his 07-08 season, which was absolutely monstrous. I think that Amar’e is not a good offensive rebounder, and that hurts his team. If he comes close to a .65 TS% this season, I will eat my words. But he’s probably going to stay below .54, which means bad things for the Knick offense given his usage.

      And what sets Faried apart from Stoudemire is that he creates his own shots through tremendous offensive rebounding and putbacks. Without the offensive rebounds, those possessions-employed do not exist. That adds a whole lot of value to his game. And you can’t even pretend that he’s not athletic enough to get back down the floor after being “aggressive” on the boards, as if it’s somehow a bad thing.

      And he’s playing on a completely different level than Blair ever did; what upset me about the Blair pick was that the Knicks could have easily bought a 2nd rounder and had him, who had tremendous upside, with a non-guaranteed minimum contract. That, to me, is worth the risk 100 out of 100 times

    25. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I never said that Amar’e has never been as good as Faried is now, even if he has a much lower WP48 number

      But everything else you say pretty much would support such a conclusion. Either WP48 can be depended on to make judgments like this or it can’t, especially when discussing players who play the same position. When you say otherwise, you become what you often rail against: one that uses stats arbitrarily to support a predetermined conclusion.

      I’m not as down on WP48 as Juany8 and others, but do think it has both statistical and philosophical flaws and must be considered in the context of other factors, such as role, usage, team makeup, cap issues, coaching, etc. You often bring up how long it took baseball GMs to consider sabermetrics as useful and valid, but that ship has long sailed, especially for the regulars on this site. Most of us here use advanced stats to some degree in making arguments, and most understand the flaws in some of them, e.g. PER.

    26. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Amar’e's numbers look weird from that season because he was counted as a pure C, from what I can tell. This makes his rebounding look even worse than normal (and he is NOT a good rebounder). I would rather have Faried in every other season, though. Amar’e's career high in PPS is 1.64, and career average is 1.46. This is really, really good. Faried’s already at 1.52 and collects nearly 3 (!!!) more offensive rebounds per 48 than Amar’e has over his career. Compared to last season, Faried doubles (!!!) Amar’e's OREB/48 number.

      So shit, maybe I retract my argument for Amar’e. Faried is a monster, and he’s only 22. If he develops even one good post move, I’d worry for the rest of the league.

    27. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Amar’e’s numbers look weird from that season because he was counted as a pure C, from what I can tell. This makes his rebounding look even worse than normal (and he is NOT a good rebounder). I would rather have Faried in every other season, though. Amar’e’s career high in PPS is 1.64, and career average is 1.46. This is really, really good. Faried’s already at 1.52 and collects nearly 3 (!!!) more offensive rebounds per 48 than Amar’e has over his career. Compared to last season, Faried doubles (!!!) Amar’e’s OREB/48 number.

      So shit, maybe I retract my argument for Amar’e. Faried is a monster, and he’s only 22. If he develops even one good post move, I’d worry for the rest of the league.

      Faried is probably going to develop face-up moves and a shot instead of post-moves. If you watched his college tapes he tried a lot of post-moves, and despite his explosion, he was not very effective with them.

      But I think he has a chance to develop a jump shot which will open up his finishing and quickness. Naturally, however, adding more non-assisted, non-put back shot attempts will make him a far less attractive player in wow., even though he’ll add more value to the offense.

      Defensively, Karl can hide him a lot and use his boundless energy. But it’s a problem when he has to play Gasol or Randolph or any big that creates deeper double teams.

    28. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Naturally, however, adding more non-assisted, non-put back shot attempts will make him a far less attractive player in wow., even though he’ll add more value to the offense.

      So basically the opposite of Amar’e. He needs a PG for more assisted shots, but Faried needs fewer to be more effective. I really don’t get it at all.

    29. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: So basically the opposite of Amar’e. He needs a PG for more assisted shots, but Faried needs fewer to be more effective. I really don’t get it at all.

      I haven’t come across any player who is more efficient when the proportion of non-assisted attempts increases, as you are proposing occurs for Faried.

      Obviously the boards little psuedo-dialectic won’t be resolved until there’s an agreement that there is some added value in self-created shots, context and situation dependent, that efficiency metrics don’t directly capture.

      Given that thesis, Faried will be less efficient, less attractive to wow, but perhaps more valuable if he develops a decent jump shot a more diverrse non-assisted, non-putback game.

      I highly doubt he ever develops a non-assisted offensive game as good as Amar’es, but he’s such a great offensive rebounder he may not have to do be a very good offensive player.

    30. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: So shit, maybe I retract my argument for Amar’e. Faried is a monster, and he’s only 22. If he develops even one good post move, I’d worry for the rest of the league.
      The Honorable Cock Jowles

      That’s more like it, stick to your guns!

      I’m still not sold on Faried but look forward to seeing how he does this year. He truly is a beast on the offensive boards. I still think that defense will be a problem for him but won’t be accurately factored into his WP48 score, making him more of a monster on paper than he really is. Regarding role, Amare at his best is tough to quantify, which is probably why you quibbled in @34. He seems to be a hybrid between all 3 frontcourt spots, so his offensive rebounding numbers probably should be compared to small forwards/slashers rather than post-up players or rebounding/defensive specialists. For the last 1 1/2 years, he hasn’t consistently done anything particularly well, and has put up career-low numbers, but before that, he was definitely a max-type player. Can he get back to that level? He is young enough, has recovered from health issues before, and his recent health issues are not related to past health issues, so I wouldn’t count him out yet. Kidd and Felton should help a lot.

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