Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, November 21, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Nov 10 2012)

  • [New York Post] Melo & Co. outlast Mavericks to remain NBA’s only unbeaten (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:19:19 -0500)
    The Knicks sweated it out for a half, which is the most they have sweated this season.
    After falling behind at halftime and actually looking beatable, the Knicks swatted their first challenge away with the ease of the NBA’s lone undefeated team.
    Holding the Mavericks to 37 points in…

  • [New York Post] Tyson has big Chand in beating old mates (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 04:22:52 -0500)
    There is still disappointment for Knicks center Tyson Chandler that the Mavericks â?? who won the 2011 NBA championship â?? did not have a chance to repeat as players, including himself, landed across the basketball landscape.
    But Chandler doesn’t see himself out of the title chase. These Knicks remind him of…

  • [New York Post] Finding strong from the week (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 04:03:05 -0500)
    We are still in that segment of season when anything remains possible, when everyone remains viable. Charles Barkley once said he disliked the first few weeks of a season because “the lousy teams don’t know that they’re lousy yet.â?
    This is also true: This early, the great teams…

  • [New York Post] Mavericks coach: Kidd’s (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 03:47:36 -0500)
    What Jason Kidd does on a basketball court never has been in dispute. The big shots. The astounding defense. The how-in-blazes-did-he-do-that passes. The triple doubles.
    But just as impressive is what Kidd does for those around him. Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle saw it first hand in Dallas, and he sees…

  • [New York Post] Phil, D’Antoni floated to replace Brown (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 03:20:11 -0500)
    Even Yogi got 16 games.
    The Lakers, stressing the higher than normal expectations to win now put on the team with the arrivals of center Dwight Howard and point guard Steve Nash, fired coach Mike Brown yesterday, just five games into the season.
    “Very surprising. I’m disappointed for him…

  • [New York Post] No Kidd-ing! Cuban still full of jeer (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 02:37:09 -0500)
    Mavericks flamboyant owner Mark Cuban didn’t take back his harsh words about Knicks guard Jason Kidd, joking before the game he would “boo the hell out of him” last night.Nevertheless, Cuban, surrounded by reporters before last night’s Knicks-Mavericks game, didn’t add fuel to the fire. Kidd…

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks top Mavs, remain undefeated (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:33:36 EST)
    Tyson Chandler's arms reached above everyone else's inside the paint after Carmelo Anthony's layup rimmed off. In one motion, Chandler grabbed the ball, got hit on the arm and slammed home the miss as the Garden erupted with noise midway through the fourth quarter.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Chandler fires up Knicks, shakes up Mavs (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 01:48:57 EDT)
    With 6:09 remaining in the fourth quarter, Tyson Chandler soared over Dallas’ defense, following up on a Carmelo Anthony missed layup, and threw down a vicious, two-handed putback dunk.
    Chandler flexed his arms, shouted a few words in the direction of the opposing bench — and fired up his team. The Knicks went on to put away the Mavericks, 104-94, en route to their best start (4-0) since the 1993-94 season.
    “I just wanted to give my guys some energy,” said Chandler, who finished with 11 points and nine rebounds (five offensive) in 30 minutes.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Carmelo Anthony lifts Knicks to 4-0 start (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 01:06:40 EDT)
    Crazy as it sounded to some, Mike Woodson wanted Carmelo Anthony to be more than just a scorer this season.
    He wanted him to rebound, play defense, share the ball and generally lead this Knicks team with a dose of selfless play.
    “I’m trying to get Melo to do everything,” the coach said earlier this week.
    Some around the NBA had to hear that statement and chuckle.
    Anthony, of course, has the reputation of a talented scorer with little regard for other aspects of the game.

  • [New York Daily News] Anthony nets 31 as undefeated Knicks top Mavs (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:11:40 GMT)
    The schedule hasn’t exactly been grueling and the competition, except for the Miami Heat, has been average at best. But we are now into the second week of the NBA season and not only are the Knicks in first place but they have yet to lose a game.

  • [New York Daily News] Mavs owner expects Melo to shine with vets (Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:52:34 GMT)
    Mavericks owner Mark Cuban saw Dirk Nowitzki grow as Dallas’ superstar into a 2011 NBA champion, surrounded by experienced veterans such as Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler.

  • 30 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Nov 10 2012)

    1. danvt

      I’m tired of everyone in the media talking about how old we are. People just point to the mean average age of 31 and say, “see!”. Once Amar’e is back you won’t need to see Wallace playing even the 18 minutes he got. Coach Woodson is managing their minutes very well. Meanwhile, when these guys are in they are very good. 10 rebounds between Camby and Wallace. Kidd’s line was a thing of beauty. 15 minutes, 2-3, 3 ast, 3 steals!!! His second game this season with three steals I believe. Whoever said he was a bad defensive player was wrong and should answer for it.

    2. danvt

      I didn’t include Shumpert in my calculation above. I’m not sure where he fits in if the team is playing as well as it is know when he gets back. He’s a great defender but a poor offensive player. He’s a lot like Brewer, who is just killing it right now. 4-10 but 2-4 from 3’s, 8 rebounds (4 offensive!!), 2 ast, 2 stls, and a block for a whopping +19.

      You can’t play much better than this team is playing right now. Last year we waited with bated breath for our rehabbing players to rescue us. This year, at least Shumpert, may be in for spot minutes once he returns.

    3. danvt

      I was wondering what this team might need in a trade. We’re winning without Amar’e. Do we trade him? I know we probably can’t but what would we want if we did? We’re pretty good at 2 guard now, with Kidd, JR, Brewer, and eventually Shump. We have depth at center with Tyson Chandler (aka my favorite person on the planet) and the two old guys. I love our PG’s. The only need I can see is for a guy with a mid range game who can play pick and roll and get to the cup. Someone to take the pressure off of Melo and carry the scoring load in a multitude of ways. In other words, an Amar’e Stoudemire type!

      I mean, if we can get a 1st round pick and some cap space fine but otherwise, Amar’e really is the player that will round out this roster and make us that much tougher in the playoffs. Nice to think about him as another piece and not someone who we need to rely on to be an eraser on defense or something else he’s not. If he can’t guard someone he sits.

    4. danvt

      I can’t believe I’m posting here and have barely mentioned Carmelo Anthony. Last year it was as if we had three players and the roster of St Johns. We have so much depth this season. I haven’t mentioned JR Smith either. Neither guy stopped the ball and they were our true leaders out there, playing efficiently and making their teammates better.

      No need to talk about the Gallo’s, the Lee’s, the Lin’s and the other lost loves who’s stat lines look so good on mediocre western conference non contenders.

      Looks like we have our best team in over a decade, boys!

    5. yellowboy90

      Is it lonely being up posting this early? I agree the Wallace minutes will come down but he is going to be a key part to this team I think. The guy is 2 yrs remove from playing and is playing very well. This is also without playing any pre-season so once he rounds into shape and start knocking down the J look out. He is a nice player to play with Melo and the other bigs because of his ability to space the floor. I also think he will make the second unit better when the shots are not falling due to his ability to play in the post.

    6. jon abbey

      Amar’e can’t be traded, his contract is uninsured, his health is in question, and his usefulness is very much in question.

    7. jock cowles

      It’s obviously way too early to consider a trade like that, but there will definitely be a logjam on the bench before long.

      The good news is it seems like this whole team is committed to winning, regardless of who gets minutes. Of course, that’s ridiculously easy to say when you’re the only undefeated team left.

    8. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      Amar’e can’t be traded, his contract is uninsured, his health is in question, and his usefulness is very much in question.

      If Gilbert arenas could be traded so could Amar’e. The problem is you wouldn’t get anything useful out of it. Someone like Taj Gibson would be perfect for this team, but Chicago would only consider trading Boozer lol. The only way you could possibly upgrade the team with that route is picking up a veteran that looks washed up and is overpayed and hoping the veterans on this team have a big impact on him. This isn’t as far fetched as it might sound, Rasheed Wallace is currently playing better for the Knicks than at any point he did for Boston during the regular season, and that was 2 years ago! Kidd is out there playing like it’s 2011, when he was the third best player on a championship team, and Felton certainly looks more like he did in NY 2 years ago than he did last year in Portland.

      It seems the lockout impacted the older players much more badly than the younger players last year, partly because someone like Jason Kidd is not going to spend his summers trying to improve his game at this point in his career. There were also obvious cases like Felton who simply didn’t stay in shape without training camp. On the other hand, you had a team like Philadelphia look dominant over the early portion of last year after spending their summer together practicing and working out, and teams like Miami and OKC who were hungry for a title and worked hard as hell regardless the lockout.

    9. danvt

      yellowboy90: Is it lonely being up posting this early? I agree the Wallace minutes will come down but he is going to be a key part to this team I think.

      My kids get me up early on Saturday’s. Also, I never get to watch a game in real time. I wish I could participate in an in game thread. I love Wallace, He can make a three lefty, I’m just worried he won’t be able to get that weight off.

    10. danvt

      jon abbey: Amar’e can’t be traded, his contract is uninsured, his health is in question, and his usefulness is very much in question.

      I’m just saying that if you traded Amar’e, who would you want? I thought, you’d want either cap relief and a good draft pick or you’d want someone with Amar’e type skills.

      I think Amar’e will be fine but I’m starting to see the argument that his role should probably be primary scorer when Melo is on the bench. The hot start without him has been a revelation.

    11. Juany8

      danvt: I’m just saying that if you traded Amar’e, who would you want?I thought, you’d want either cap relief and a good draft pick or you’d want someone with Amar’e type skills.

      I think Amar’e will be fine but I’m starting to see the argument that his role should probably be primary scorer when Melo is on the bench.The hot start without him has been a revelation.

      The problem at this point isn’t the hot start, the point is that for the second consecutive year, this team has played brilliant basketball with Amar’e on the bench. Linsanity and the big run to end the season both had Amar’e on the bench, the truth is the guy is one of the worst players in the NBA at doing the “little things” like making timely passes, boxing out, and playing committed defense. Note that these are basic skills he’s missing, basic skills that make him quite easy to take advantage of by an elite team. I’m pretty much at the point where I consider Amar’e a net negative, it’s just insulting that a player of such ridiculous physical talent and a supposed “leader” shits on his teammates by not caring about the basic fundementals of basketball.

      I’m more comfortable with Melo jacking up 30 ISO shots a game than I am with seeing Amar’e just stand there on defense before he tries to grab a rebound from behind the man he was supposed to be boxing out. Maybe if he was freaking Dwight Howard on offense and could put up 25 points on super high efficiency, with an excellent jumper, and a post game that allows him to play without a good pick and roll point guard. Note, that wouldn’t make Amar’e a superstar, that would make Amar’e a net plus possibly deserving of an all star slot. He’s that bad on defense

    12. massive

      To continue the discussion from last night about the missed shot being beneficial:

      I think you’re leaving out a few variables. What if Felton’s shot gets blocked to a Dallas player or out of bounds? Again, I did point to Felton’s penetration being the beneficial part of the play. But once that shot goes up, it is up to Felton’s teammate to grab that rebound and put it back, and the bounce of that rebound (or where the shot goes after it has been blocked isn’t exactly the most predictable thing in the world. I get the whole “pick your poison” thing, as defenders are always left out of position once they contest a lay-up. My point is that you cannot count on the other team not blocking that ball out of bounds, inning it to the backboard.

    13. massive

      That should read “or pinning it to the backboard and taking it for themselves.” However, I do see that the offensive rebound is the most likely occurrence, so I guess the penetration doesn’t go to waste since the defense cannot react in time to stop the eventual putback.

    14. yellowboy90

      danvt: My kids get me up early on Saturday’s.Also, I never get to watch a game in real time.I wish I could participate in an in game thread.I love Wallace,He can make a three lefty, I’m just worried he won’t be able to get that weight off.

      I was worried too before he played but if Woodson is willing to play him in the 1st qtr he must be putting in major work. With Camby being back I wonder if they can actually let Wallace train and condition if some weeks and keep his minutes low during the games. Let Kurt play some spot duty and keep everyone fresh.

    15. jon abbey

      massive:
      To continue the discussion from last night about the missed shot being beneficial:

      I think you’re leaving out a few variables. What if Felton’s shot gets blocked to a Dallas player or out of bounds? Again, I did point to Felton’s penetration being the beneficial part of the play. But once that shot goes up, it is up to Felton’s teammate to grab that rebound and put it back, and the bounce of that rebound (or where the shot goes after it has been blocked isn’t exactly the most predictable thing in the world. I get the whole “pick your poison” thing, as defenders are always left out of position once they contest a lay-up. My point is that you cannot count on the other team not blocking that ball out of bounds,inning it to the backboard.

      right, that’s why I said the blocked shot confused things a bit, the ideal example would be that exact play where Brand didn’t tip the ball but the shot missed anyway.

    16. jon abbey

      if the Lakers hired D’Antoni (which I highly doubt, I just heard that he and Nash parted on bad terms in Phoenix which I didn’t know before or didn’t remember), would it make any sense for them to trade Gasol for Amar’e? honestly not sure, just throwing it out there, Amar’e’s defensive shortcomings would be largely covered up by playing next to Howard.

    17. danvt

      yellowboy90: With Camby being back I wonder if they can actually let Wallace train and condition if some weeks and keep his minutes low during the games. Let Kurt play some spot duty and keep everyone fresh.

      Yeah I think that’s the idea. Let 2 out of those three be part of the rotation at any given time. I’m stoked for Camby. I’m sorry I got the out of market feed on league pass last night because the Dallas telecast basically ignored that bit of Knicks history that occurred when he checked in.

    18. danvt

      Juany8: Amar’e a net negative, it’s just insulting that a player of such ridiculous physical talent and a supposed “leader” shits on his teammates by not caring about the basic fundementals of basketball.

      I agree in some ways but I think this is, perhaps, a bit of a reach. I agree that he steps out of the way most egregiously. His first year in NY I thought it was to conserve his fouls. Now, I think he’s just not as fearless as a guy like Jared Jeffries. It was interesting that last year “comely Jared” as Bob Silverman once dubbed him, was pretty much just as beneficial to the team with none of the scoring but with his mastery of the skill of falling on his arse.

      I think this year, though, coach Woodson has a few things going for him. For one, the team is probably going to be playing at an elite level and he’ll have the leverage to make him ride pine if he doesn’t get between his man and the hoop. Also, the guy is a communicator. I think we’ve seen that he’s getting through to JR and Melo, who many here would have never thought could change the way they approach the game. Also, I think, Amar’e can be utilized in a bit of a more specialized way. Maybe as a 3. Maybe as an undersized 5.

      Woodson seems a pragmatist and I think Amar’e can still be utilized as a net positive if not a franchise player.

    19. daJudge

      I may be way off base on this missed shot thing, but IMO, a good shot is a good shot whether goes in or not. A bad shot is a bad shot whether it goes in or not. Anyone that plays hoop knows that this concept is true whether you are considering the play by play context, game context or the team’s overall philosophy as a context. So of course a missed shot can be a good shot, but I’m probably missing the point here. So, if Jon is saying a bad shot is sometimes a good shot, that is a different argument. Anyway, maybe this is also true sometimes. For example, if a player is reticent and doesn’t shoot when enough, that allows the opponent to cheat on defense. I think Clyde made this point last night re: Prigs. I never thought Jon was saying that a a bad shot is not a bad shot because certain other factors could make it valuable. But maybe that is his argument. Back to my interpretation, sometimes a crappy looking shot (which is missed) is really a good shot because there are no other better options at that time and the shot at least occupies defenders. Also, sometimes you just need to shoot the ball to gain respect from the defense. If you do not have respect, it’s like you’re not even out there. The defense at least needs to believe that you have scoring potential.

    20. jon abbey

      I’m not talking about a bad shot or a good shot, I’m talking about analyzing a completed play and how it is recorded (I don’t think I explained this well enough before, maybe because it seems so fundamentally obvious to me). hypotheticals don’t matter just as they don’t matter on a made basket, what I’m talking about is how the actual completed play is recorded in the box score, so what could have happened (the ball being blocked out of bounds or off a Knick, etc) doesn’t matter.

      on the play in question, Felton is credited only with a missed (blocked) shot and Chandler gets a rebound and a basket, and to me that’s fundamentally wrong. if Brand stays on Chandler, Felton probably easily scores, Brand’s play briefly delays the basket but doesn’t prevent it, and it happened because of Felton’s initial penetration and ability to draw a second defender (not saying Chandler should get no credit either, just that the box score misrepresents reality in this case).

    21. daJudge

      OK Jon and Ruru, thanks for the clarification. But isn’t the “penetration” or other potential efficacy of the attempt the reason why it’s a good shot/ bad shot, whatever the result is of the completed play? And really, if you are going to look at the result of the “completed play”, does that really define whether it is good or bad or merely fortuitous?

    22. jon abbey

      daJudge:
      OK Jon and Ruru, thanks for the clarification. But isn’t the “penetration” or other potential efficacy of the attempt the reason why it’s a good shot/ bad shot, whatever the result is of the completed play?

      no, the penetration is some of it, but getting the ball up on the boards is what gives Chandler the open chance to follow. if the penetration is followed by a poor pass that results in a turnover or a blocked shot out of bounds or even a wild shot that eludes Chandler, then it hasn’t actually helped the team in a positive way.

      “And really, if you are going to look at the result of the “completed play”, does that really define whether it is good or bad or merely fortuitous?”

      but that is what a box score is allegedly supposed to measure, results of completed plays, that’s all I’m trying to talk about. whether shots are good or bad is a different discussion.

    23. daJudge

      OK, Jon, let me wrap my head around this idea, maybe later, because I’m starved. But, in your particular scenario, isn’t it really a good shot because we have, e.g., Chandler who can and perhaps will clean it up? Jon, I think you play(ed) ball and how many times have you thrown up a shot because your team dominates the boards, hence it is a good shot, in or out, if it’s in rhythm. Change the facts though: you don’t have a dominating 5 and you shoot a low percentage shot that will probably result in a defensive rebound or even a fast break. That’s hardly ever a good shot, right? I agree completely that a simple box score can not distinguish these two shots. Ultimately though, the good shot w/i the particular context or framework of the team will yield certain definable results, no? So, the shot’s quality depends on the context. That context is neither reflected in the box score nor perhaps any metric (a stretch, and I don’t love metrics). So that’s why I listen to you guys regarding metrics and then use my own eyes to make my decision. I don’t want to put words in your mouth Jon and I want to eat my cheeseburger (I’ve saved one for you), but is that what you mean? I’m going to also have a sour pickle for THCJ.

    24. jon abbey

      heh, people are making this way more confusing than it needs to be. whether it’s a good shot or bad shot doesn’t matter, what matters is that a basket was scored. it’s a ‘good’ play because it resulted in a basket, same as if the initial shot was made. I’m just talking about how the box score deals with that, and pointing out that this is one of many ways in which a box score falls short (the hockey pass is another, turnovers attributed to just one player are often another, etc, etc).

      enjoy your burger!! :)

    25. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      heh, people are making this way more confusing than it needs to be. whether it’s a good shot or bad shot doesn’t matter, what matters is that a basket was scored. it’s a ‘good’ play because it resulted in a basket, same as if the initial shot was made. I’m just talking about how the box score deals with that, and pointing out that this is one of many ways in which a box score falls short (the hockey pass is another, turnovers attributed to just one player are often another, etc, etc).

      enjoy your burger!! :)

      I’ve been thinking about this, and I’ve decided that perhaps the best way to handle this from a statistical side is to eliminate the missed field goal from the guy who shot and the offensive rebound from the guy got tipped it. Basically, a missed field goal that leads to a rebounded shot is treated almost like a pass. This obviously isn’t perfect, but an offensive rebound is an extension of the possession in which it occurred, it doesn’t create a new possession entirely. In the Felton example above, it does seem weird to give Felton a ton of credit for simply drawing attention, but it’s much worse to penalize him for making a positive contribution to scoring. It also removes some of the double dipping Chandler receives for the possession, in that he gets credit for creating a new possession and making a shot. This achieves what Abbey wants (and is perfectly true) in that Felton gets a statistical boost for the play while Chandler loses some of it. I think it’s a bit of a reach to say what Felton did is as good as an actual dump off pass to Chandler that he just finished. It’s just not a bad play

    26. jon abbey

      I’m totally down with that. I’d also like to see assists awarded for plays resulting in two made FTs, and steals given when a turnover is caused, not only when the ball remains live (or just change the category to turnovers forced and include steals).

    27. jon abbey

      oh, and I’m less sure about this one, but I think maybe you shouldn’t be credited with a rebound when it’s off your own shot.

    28. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      oh, and I’m less sure about this one, but I think maybe you shouldn’t be credited with a rebound when it’s off your own shot.

      Lol the way I see it, it’s not that much different than having your pass deflected by a defender and having it land back in your hands. In one case the player almost got a miss and in the other the player almost got a turnover, both of which would have cost his team possession, but the outcome is the same. The “almost turnover” scenario gets no mention in the box score (even though I know for a fact that some teams, like the Rockets, keep track of things like deflections) while the missed shot scenario has all kinds of crap that ends up with the exact same result. It just doesn’t seem logical to me, the only reason it seems to happen is because people feel a compulsive need to use every number in the box score. Battier went on a rant a few days ago about how stupid assists were, and he’s probably the most statistically inclined player in the league. You think Spoelstra gives a shit that Battier doesn’t get a lot of assists?

    Comments are closed.