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Thursday, July 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jul 06 2013)

  • [New York Times] Dwight Howard Tweets That He’ll Sign With Rockets (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 07:52:16 GMT)
    Dwight Howard never grew comfortable playing with Kobe Bryant and for Mike D’Antoni.    

  • [New York Times] Dwight Howard Tweets That He’ll Sign With Rockets (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 04:43:19 GMT)
    Dwight Howard, the NBA’s most dominant and indecisive big man, who tired of Orlando and never loved Los Angeles, has made up his mind.    

  • [New York Times] Knicks Lose Copeland to Pacers (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 04:30:50 GMT)
    Chris Copeland, who averaged 8.7 points a game for the Knicks last season, signed a two-year, $6 million deal with Indiana.    

  • [New York Times] Howard Joining Rockets After Rejecting the Lakers (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 03:30:35 GMT)
    Dwight Howard committed to the Rockets after mulling offers from five teams and became the first star in modern N.B.A. history to walk away from the Lakers while still in his prime.    

  • [New York Times] Center Howard Opts to Leave LA for Houston (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 01:22:05 GMT)
    The tug-of-war between five teams to sign Dwight Howard finally ended on Friday when the seven-time All-Star center confirmed he would leave the Los Angeles Lakers to join the Houston Rockets.    

  • [New York Times] With Coach Gone, Butler Seeks One Just Like Him (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:06:28 GMT)
    The departure of Brad Stevens, now coach of the Boston Celtics, has left Butler in search of a leader who can do what Stevens did: lead the Bulldogs to the N.C.A.A. tournament.    

  • [New York Daily News] Cope ditches Knicks for Hicks (Sat, 06 Jul 2013 04:34:21 GMT)
    It took Chris Copeland seven years to make an NBA roster and just 56 games to strike it rich.Agent John Spencer confirmed that Copeland had agreed to a two-year, $6.1 million offer sheet with the Indiana Pacers on Friday.    

  • 125 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jul 06 2013)

    1. Z-man

      My lingering fear with the Knicks is that Woodson is a very limited playoffs coach, but he’s the only guy who can coach this collection of players. I agree with those who feel that Vogel totally outcoached Woodson, and I don’t see Woody getting any smarter next year.

    2. SeeWhyDee77

      I figured Cope was done in NY because I felt he played his way out of our price range especially if we were bringin Prigs back. I like Cope..but at the same time he’s approaching 30 and probably is really really close to his ceiling. Extra E can probably replicate what Cope gave us for cheaper. With Bargnani in tow and maybe Brand as well, there wasn’t gonna be many minutes for Copeland. Still I’m sad to see him go but it’s not like we can’t get a suitable replacement. We all know Woodson is really biased to his vets so can u imagine if Grunwald had given Copeland that raise and Woodson still using him as his ‘break in case of emergency’ player for the most part? Wouldn’t go over well. A player like Extra E would be low on cost and maintenance. I can’t imagine a player like Cope who worked so hard to get where he is take not getting consistent minutes quietly. Whereas Extra E probably wouldn’t expect a ton of minutes for his going rate. In any case..I am happy for Cope and I hope he kicks ass against everyone…’cept NY lol

    3. flossy

      Good for Copeland, but I don’t really care too much that he’s gone. The odds that he’s as good as he played in his small sample of minutes last year are slim, and if we can bring in someone like Delfino in addition to Prigioni with the remainder of our mini-MLE, that’s a far better use of that money that blowing it all on Copeland.

      I’m sure it makes sense for the Pacers who are probably looking for a bargain basement replacement for Granger so they can trade his ginormous contract. Hope it works out for Copeland (except when they play us).

    4. SeeWhyDee77

      Best case scenario is Hardaway Jr proves to be effective and JR can back up the 2 and 3 while Leslie gets ready to play. Not likely tho. Delfino is interesting. Would he come to NY on the cheap slide in as the back up 3 for about 15 minutes a game? He is a more versatile scorer than Extra E and more polished than Copeland

    5. GHenman

      I’m going to miss Copeland. The CBA definitely needs to be adjusted somehow to allow teams to re-sign there own players. However, I do think a big part of his success was coming in during garbage time and playing like it was game 7 of the finals. That should be a lesson to all end of the bench players. Every minute counts at contract time. I actually thought LA would have been a better fit.

      Delfino would be great for us, but I can’t see him taking less money and a lesser role.

    6. SeeWhyDee77

      I think Woodson needs an “offensive coordinator” the same way D’Antoni needed a “defensive coordinator”. If we could bring a coach like Westphal in to help with the offense that would be a HUGE help. Plus, he’s been a head coach before and could help out with in game adjustments. I mean..is Jim Todd and Darrel Walker really that good as assistants? Or are they just Woodson guys? Williams is hard to part with because he’s been so loyal and a good buffer for some players. But I think the team needs to assess his role too. For some reason in the playoffs, the offense got bogged down and reverted to a lot of hero ball. Kidd wasn’t hitting shots. Novak wasn’t getting enough time or looks..I mean it was like night and day from the regular season to the postseason. How much of that can we pin on coaching and how much can we pin on players? With Bargnani comin in, I think adding a coach who can add a few wrinkles to the offensive sets can only help

    7. johnno

      SeeWhyDee77: For some reason in the playoffs, the offense got bogged down

      Maybe the reason was that two of their prime rotation guys forgot how to shoot and their best player had a torn labrum? By the way, I think that it was game 3 against the Pacers, Shump was being guarded by David West, who was giving him about 8 feet of room every time he got the ball at the three point line and, whenever Shump got the ball, he never looked at the basket. No one ever mentioned that but I was screaming at the TV, “Shoot the damn ball!!” Strange.

    8. Z-man

      I heard some compare Bargnani to Gallo and decided to take a closer look. Here are their stats thru their respective 24yo seasons, they played nearly identical amounts of minutes (Gallo had one more season) are very close in most categories:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=gallida01&y1=2013&p2=bargnan01&y2=2010

      Their DRtg is a dead-on match; eFG% is nearly identical; rebounding is very similar. Any efficiency differences could reasonably be attributed to Bargnani’s higher usage. Unfortunately for Bargs, he went downhill from that point, but if he can get back on that track, we may have just re-acquired Gallo. If this happens, putting Bargs in the starting lineup may be the way to go.

    9. danvt

      I was really feeling confident thinking Brand was coming and now I’m kind of bummed. Cope going to IND is painful. Not that I really feel he’s worth 6 million. I think he’s too slow to be a three and not strong enough to be a 4. So, I think that’s a lot for them to pay for a guy that won’t necessarily play much. Maybe they saved us from ourselves. Maybe it keeps them from getting someone better. I mean, Brand wouldn’t fit in there for six million? I’d be a lot more scared of that.

      Maybe he comes back to MSG and torches us. Maybe he comes back in two years after his deal is up like Extra E.

    10. thenamestsam

      I have to say I’m struggling to see what Dwight did wrong in this free agency period to warrant all the hate he was getting last night. This is a life altering decision, and he took 5 days total, met with all the interested teams, called the ones who he wasn’t going with so they could move on to other business, and then eventually flew in to tell his old team that he wasn’t going with them. He left some guaranteed money on the table to go to a better basketball situation. As far as I can tell he did everything right and yet I’m reading about the “Dwightmare” like it’s his fault that people are incapable of shutting down their twitter feeds for 15 minutes and treat every half-assed unnamed source quoted by any hack reporter as if they speak for the man himself.

    11. ess-dog

      Sounds like Brand might find greener pastures.
      Another option might be Chris Wilcox. He actually played really well last year, though he’s fairly average defensively.
      But as a back up for the vet min, it’s not a bad move.

    12. Loathing

      ess-dog:
      Sounds like Brand might find greener pastures.
      Another option might be Chris Wilcox. He actually played really well last year, though he’s fairly average defensively.
      But as a back up for the vet min, it’s not a bad move.

      If we lose out on Brand I’d rather have K-Mart back…putting him and Bargs on a second unit together might help both cover for each others’ weaknesses.

    13. Juany8

      thenamestsam:
      I have to say I’m struggling to see what Dwight did wrong in this free agency period to warrant all the hate he was getting last night. This is a life altering decision, and he took 5 days total, met with all the interested teams, called the ones who he wasn’t going with so they could move on to other business, and then eventually flew in to tell his old team that he wasn’t going with them. He left some guaranteed money on the table to go to a better basketball situation. As far as I can tell he did everything right and yet I’m reading about the “Dwightmare” like it’s his fault that people are incapable of shutting down their twitter feeds for 15 minutes and treat every half-assed unnamed source quoted by any hack reporteras if they speak for the man himself.

      Gotta give Dwight some credit actually, after 2 years of the dwightmare, he handled his free agency very professionally, didnt collude to get together on a super team (can you imagine of the hawks had got him and Chris Paul?) picked the smartest team going forward for the next 5 years, and stayed quiet about it the whole time. Of course a lot of the hate is probably coming from the dispersed laker fans around the nation who still think Kobe is the best player in the game lol (and I’m a huge Kobe fan). The funny thing is the lakers didnt really lose anything, Bynum is totally injured and they might actually have a chance to just resign him, don’t know what their cap situation is honestly. Sad that Kobe, dirk, and Nash’s final years are going to waste though, those guys were winning or competing for them just 3 years ago.

    14. David Taggart

      I find it very hard to agree with the pessimism that some of this board exudes. Intelligent posters, THCJ included, seem to think this franchise is in complete disarray at times.
      I actually think the franchise is being run very well. If i am GG, i have a market that demands a contender which he understand demands one method of thinking with an owner that requires star power. If you are criticising the Andrea Bargnani deal because you think they are looking for short term gains or the 2nd coming of Dirk Nowitzki then your own delusions or perceptions are standing in the way of the fact that with a very limited set of options the FO has still put together a team CAPABLE of competing for a championship whilst not jeopardising the future.
      We have a lot of cap space in 2 years and the FO has been very progressive in recruiting overseas, let’s not ignore that in favour of insistent petulance.
      I will concede that we have few draft prospects, but I would counter that there is an awful lot more value these days at the vets minimum range to counter act this to some degree.
      Bargnani’s WS do not make for pretty reading, nor do his efficiency numbers. He is however a good passing big man who has shown he can make outside shots. With the current CBA and our willingness to spend you have to somewhat remove yourself from the monetary element of his acquisition. His is not a long term piece of this team but a good replacement for Copeland, camby never played and Novak had a contract we wanted to shorten.
      A lot of things have to go right for you to win a championship and the Knicks now have depth enough to rest players in a similar way to the spurs. The FO has done their job relatively well, my problem lies more with our coach than anything else. Woodson was found lacking and out dated at times last year and hasn’t progressed as rapidly as he needs to. His teams will always be competitive but maybe never dominant. Let us not forget this team was very good to start last…

    15. Juany8

      Mavs are going after Bynum, called it haha. Might end up being an interesting team if he gets healthy, or it might waste what’s left of dirk’s career

    16. massive

      You know what’s funny about the Copeland situation? His usage/efficiency combination is very likely the best on the Pacers. He’s their best offensive player at this moment. I wonder how well he does on that team, especially with how horrible they are as an offensive team. Copeland did well in limited isolations but thrived off of good ball rotation as a 3 point shooter who could put it on the floor. The Pacers style of offense probably won’t provide the same opportunities for him. I’m glad he got his money because he deserves it. But since he gets paid no matter what, I hope he sucks and gets exposed for going to the enemy.

    17. max fisher-cohen

      Hey Dave, I think most everyone here would agree that Grunwald has done about all you can do if the orders from Dolan are always, “Add stars at any cost, and never trade a star unless he’s put in 2+ consecutive seasons of crap. (at which point he’s worthless).”
      I think most people agree that within those criterion, Grunwald has done an amazing job.

      I think the criticism is more general frustration about the Dolan commandments — that they put a permanent ceiling on the team, a ceiling which this team probably reached last season. They also mean that the roster becomes a revolving door. It’s hard to see players you like get traded away, especially younger players that you have watched grow up. But the Dolan commandments basically force the team to trade away any players with untapped potential for players in their prime. I wouldn’t count on Shumpert being with the team come February unless the Knicks are at least fighting for the second seed.

      I would guess that if given the choice between building the Dolan way and building the Morey/Presti way, 90% of posters on this board would go for the latter. The only thing that keeps them from railing about it is loyalty to the players on the roster — a feeling that they are part of the team and that the right thing is to support and defend its players. Maybe I’m wrong though.

    18. yellowboy90

      How is Prigs contract incentive based and what would have been the amount of his non-bird rights salary?

    19. Douglas

      max fisher-cohen:
      Hey Dave, I think most everyone here would agree that Grunwald has done about all you can do if the orders from Dolan are always, “Add stars at any cost, and never trade a star unless he’s put in 2+ consecutive seasons of crap. (at which point he’s worthless).”
      I think most people agree that within those criterion, Grunwald has done an amazing job.

      I think the criticism is more general frustration about the Dolan commandments — that they put a permanent ceiling on the team, a ceiling which this team probably reached last season. They also mean that the roster becomes a revolving door. It’s hard to see players you like get traded away, especially younger players that you have watched grow up. But the Dolan commandments basically force the team to trade away any players with untapped potential for players in their prime. I wouldn’t count on Shumpert being with the team come February unless the Knicks are at least fighting for the second seed.

      I would guess that if given the choice between building the Dolan way and building the Morey/Presti way, 90% of posters on this board would go for the latter. The only thing that keeps them from railing about it is loyalty to the players on the roster — a feeling that they are part of the team and that the right thing is to support and defend its players. Maybe I’m wrong though.

      Max, it’s just how things are in New York. We will probably never see the Yankees or the Rangers get blown up and rebuilt from the ground up, either. Always reloading, never rebuilding.

    20. BigBlueAL

      yellowboy90:
      How is Prigs contract incentive based and what would have been the amount of his non-bird rights salary?

      I believe I read that w/o using part of their MLE they could only have offered Prigs around 800-900 grand a year.

    21. lavor postell

      Douglas: Max, it’s just how things are in New York. We will probably never see the Yankees or the Rangers get blown up and rebuilt from the ground up, either. Always reloading, never rebuilding.

      Exactly. I’d like to have seen most people’s reaction if we had done the prudent thing in 2010 and not splashed big on amar’e looking for market value over star power. I can only imagine the avalanche of negativity that would have rained down if the prize for tanking after three years was preserving whatever cap space we had hoarded to go after the free agent class of 2011,12,etc. Grunwald’s done a pretty good job of balancing being a competitive team currently with freeing up future cap space in the hopes of reloading the nucleus around Melo.

      max fisher-cohen:

      It’s hard to see players you like get traded away, especially younger players that you have watched grow up. But the Dolan commandments basically force the team to trade away any players with untapped potential for players in their prime. I wouldn’t count on Shumpert being with the team come February unless the Knicks are at least fighting for the second seed.

      If this is based on the fact that we moved Gallinari, Chandler, Mozgov and a couple of first rounders for Melo I don’t get the logic. Look the Knicks have been mismanaged to the max for a long time, but since about 2008 I don’t think we’ve exactly given away any great young talent without getting something back. Trading those guys for Melo is a trade I’d make every day. I don’t think Shump or THJ are going anywhere unless we are getting a piece that will put us over the top. The Knicks I think have actually shown a lot of patience and care in developing Shumpert and I think should be commended for it.

    22. lavor postell

      That’s also not to say that we haven’t made any mistakes in that period of time or perhaps given away a lot of picks that seemed excessive and unnecessary.

    23. JK47

      Douglas: Max, it’s just how things are in New York. We will probably never see the Yankees or the Rangers get blown up and rebuilt from the ground up, either. Always reloading, never rebuilding.

      I’m a Mets fan, so I’m all too familiar with employing a “win now” strategy while the team is nowhere near “winning now.” Fortunately the Mets were forced into a true rebuild because of the Bernie Madoff situation, and it’s really enjoyable as a fan. Yes, they’re pretty bad right now, but they’re doing the right things– moving pieces like Beltran and Dickey while they still have value and getting premium young assets in return.

      It’s really refreshing pulling for a “normal” team that doesn’t have some tiny window of opportunity before the whole thing falls apart. What the Mets are doing could and should really lead to long-term success and stability. I wish the Knicks would try the same thing sometime but yeah, it ain’t ever gonna happen.

    24. max fisher-cohen

      Doug,

      Yeah, I think that will eventually have to change. Even the Lakers are going to have to rebuild. People forget too that the Lakers rebuild in the early 90s set the table not only for some decent teams in the mid 90s but their early run of titles eight years later. Had they not had Van Exel and Eddie Jones on rookie deals and been patient in developing Divac, who really wasn’t good until his 5th year in the league, they never would have had the cap space to sign Shaq. Bynum, too, was home grown as was Derek Fisher.

      Had they been content with 48-53 win seasons, they never would have traded Divac for the 13th pick. Yeah, the move was partially a salary dump to make space for Shaq, but LA could just as easily have traded for a veteran player with a lower salary.

      But yeah, I’d say that the thought that “this is the way it is and will always be” is probably the main thing that keeps people from doing more whining about the desperation star hunting strategy.

    25. Z-man

      Douglas: Max, it’s just how things are in New York. We will probably never see the Yankees or the Rangers get blown up and rebuilt from the ground up, either. Always reloading, never rebuilding.

      Well, the Mets are doing it.

      Yeah, Dolan is a head case and there has been a lack of patience with young players and draft picks. However, much of the problem with the Knicks over the last 3 decades was at the GM level, and while Dolan is ultimately responsible for who he puts in that position, seems to me that Isiah had a totally free hand, as did Walsh up until the Melo trade, which looks to be a relatively even trade in retrospect.

      I would also say that Grunwald has done a good job of acquiring assets that are at least as good as any we could have gotten with the draft picks we gave up.

      With all the second-guessing, this team is in the best position that it has been since the Ewing era, and can completely re-tool in two years, something you could never have said in the past. So I’m OK where we are right now relative to most other teams.

    26. BigBlueAL

      Breaking news:

      Josh Smith has agreed to a four year, $56 million deal with the Detroit Pistons, league sources tell Y! Sports.

    27. ess-dog

      BigBlueAL:
      Breaking news:

      Josh Smith has agreed to a four year, $56 million deal with the Detroit Pistons, league sources tell Y! Sports.

      Looks like he got an extra year from Detroit, but Atlanta would’ve given him a little more yearly at 45 mil over 3 years. I guess he’s not a max player after all, ha.

    28. ess-dog

      Looking back at the Bargs deal, it now seems like a straight salary dump of Camby and Novak for our picks to say Utah, would’ve been a better strategy.
      I’m not sure how far under the cap that would’ve put us, but signing Cope, Kmart and Brand is > Bargs.

    29. Hubert

      max fisher-cohen:
      But the Dolan commandments basically force the team to trade away any players with untapped potential for players in their prime. I wouldn’t count on Shumpert being with the team come February unless the Knicks are at least fighting for the second seed.

      I would guess that if given the choice between building the Dolan way and building the Morey/Presti way, 90% of posters on this board would go for the latter.

      I feel like those are the Woodson commandments, too. I think Copeland leaving has a lot to do w GG recognizing that his coach was too simple minded to play him. We haven’t really regretted losing any of the guys who did well for us but got paid elsewhere yet, though.

      I’ve never said anything would make me quit this team, but if we traded Shumpert next year I would lose my f’n mind.

      I wouldn’t choose the Morey/Presti way. It’s basically “suck & pray”.

    30. jon abbey

      ess-dog:
      Looking back at the Bargs deal, it now seems like a straight salary dump of Camby and Novak for our picks to say Utah, would’ve been a better strategy.
      I’m not sure how far under the cap that would’ve put us, but signing Cope, Kmart and Brand is > Bargs.

      we wouldn’t be under the cap and couldn’t do this.

    31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And Detroit, on cue, saves Houston from squandering their cap on Josh Smith. If they can get Asik to buy into playing next to Howard, they could be the best in the West next year.

    32. Hubert

      I mean, most teams do it “the Presti way,” they just never end up w Kevin Durant so it doesn’t matter. Morey is a great GM who I respect a lot but he needed Presti to royally fuck up for his plan could work.

      Remember when the Celtics tried to tank for Durant or Oden? Or when Miami tanked to get Michael Beasley? That’s a far more likely outcome than coming away with Durant.

    33. d-mar

      Hubert:
      I mean, most teams do it “the Presti way,” they just never end up w Kevin Durant so it doesn’t matter.Morey is a great GM who I respect a lot but he needed Presti to royally fuck up for his plan could work.

      Remember when the Celtics tried to tank for Durant or Oden? Or when Miami tanked to get Michael Beasley?That’s a far more likely outcome than coming away with Durant.

      There really is so much luck involved. Boston didn’t get Duncan in 97, and sucked for years after, and the same thing could (hopefully) happen next year when they tank to go after Wiggins. And we all know how well the Bobcats have done with their picks, although some of that has to be blamed on management.

    34. Z-man

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with the “system” the Knicks have used since dumping Isiah. Individual decisions and moves can be questioned, and clearly we don’t always trade for, draft or sign the right guys. But that could be true with ANY system. The key to any system is making prudent personnel decisions and getting lucky. Overall, once the decision was made to build a big 3 of Melo, Amare and Chandler, GG has done a very good job of filling in the rest of the roster. The big issue last year was age, and that is really not a factor going into next year. In fact, we have a bunch of guys between 25 and 30 filling out the rotation, with Shump, Hardaway, Leslie, and hopefully Jordan as precocious neophytes. And not a single unmovable contract past 2015. Yes, we are down 2 #1 picks in that time frame, but they would be lower picks anyway. And the #2 picks are of little more value than an undrafted FA, a FA from Europe or a D-Leaguer.

    35. SeeWhyDee77

      BigBlueAL:
      Breaking news:

      Josh Smith has agreed to a four year, $56 million deal with the Detroit Pistons, league sources tell Y! Sports.

      Josh Smith playin the 3 next to Monroe and Drummond will screw things up..unless he takes better shots and makes more from the outside. Remember when Dumars was lauded as a genius for putting together their championship team? Wow. Monroe and Drummond is a nice start for any team, but Dumars was desperate to make a splash. So he picked the wrong splash. Hell, he would have been better served by beating Minnesota to Martin. I like Smith..just not as 3..playing next to 2 young talented bigs. Matter of fact..adding Gary Neal and Martin on that team would have been solid low risk moves for them. And they probably would have been able to conserve future cap space.

    36. Hubert

      If we had executed our plan better, we’d have every bit as good a team as OKC and Houston. Frankly I’m not convinced Houston is a level above us right now.

      We had a terrible piece of bad luck, i.e. the CBA happened to be expiring the 2nd year we had cap space, which forced Carmelo Anthony to demand a trade instead of waiting 3 months. And we fucked up by not holding out.

      The plan had a better chance of succeeding than tanking and praying you win the lottery in one of the years when it’s worth winning.

    37. JK47

      Hubert:
      If we had executed our plan better, we’d have every bit as good a team as OKC and Houston.Frankly I’m not convinced Houston is a level above us right now.

      We had a terrible piece of bad luck, i.e. the CBA happened to be expiring the 2nd year we had cap space, which forced Carmelo Anthony to demand a trade instead of waiting 3 months.And we fucked up by not holding out.

      The plan had a better chance of succeeding than tanking and praying you win the lottery in one of the years when it’s worth winning.

      The plan was kind of effed up the minute they gave that contract to Amar’e. When you begin your rebuild by immediately giving out a bloated, unmovable contract, you’re really boxing yourself in.

    38. Z-man

      To be fair, it’s not about tanking and hoping for gold in the lottery. It’s about stockpiling young, marketable talent on low-cost deals, using stats effectively to determine player value a la moneyball, and being in good position during peak FA periods to swing the big deal for the best players (e.g. Harden and Howard.) The point is, we went for Amare and Melo at the expense of nearly all of our cap room and many draft picks rather than waiting for Harden and Howard and still having a stockpile of picks and some cap space.

      On the other hand, should we have signed Lee? Gallo? Chandler? Would we be better right now if we did? Or if we let them walk? Who knows.

    39. SeeWhyDee77

      It’s easy to second guess moves that didn’t work the way they were intended with the benefit of hindsight. But after LeBron turned us down we pretty much HAD to get Stat. David Lee might have been a safer choice and a more consistent player, but he was not gonna make NY attractive in the state we were in. Granted, Stat didn’t have any effect on Melo wanting to be a Knick. I think he wanted to before he said so, he just didn’t wanna use that card at that time. With or without Stat I think we had a realistic shot at getting Melo. The problem has been the FO bidding against themselves. No one else was offering Sat that kinda cake. Also no one was willing to offer Toronto that kinda package to take Bargnani off their hands. I think that while the 2 moves were likeable..they were still of the knee jerk variety. Meaning they were for players we can use, good players, but The FO rushed it. Those 2 moves only are bad if they backfire. If we can get both guys healthy they are very productive. For instance..look at Stat’s PER before he went down for the second time this season. He was great for us. And Bargnani? He probably is a bigger Gallo. But there was a time his coaches told him to rebound more and play in the paint and he responded with more effort than was expected. His rebounding numbers weren’t really becoming of a 7 footer but he tried..also got more than a block a game. Maybe Tyson and Woodson will have enough of an influence on him to use his size as an advantage. Regardless..when healthy he is a dangerous second or third option. The fact he’s 7′ 250 makes it even better. And if we can somehow bring Brand in we don’t have to worry about the center position as much. If it works Grunwald is a genius..if it doesn’t he gets crucified in the media. Can’t fault the guy for trying with the limitations he’s facing.

    40. Unreason

      It seems like the Spurs, who no longer have cap space, might be after Pachulia: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/07/02/rumor-roundup-ginobili-in-no-rush-pachulia-a-possibility/
      He made 4.75 in 2012 and is coming off surgery for a sore achilles that has a typical 6 mo recovery time that might lower what he’s willing to take. But he’s only 29 and has no history of major injuries. If the Knicks are in the same boat as the Spurs re the cap, I hope GG is at least in the mix and isn’t focused exclusively on more skill/scoring guys.

      If SAS manages to land both KMart and Pachulia while the Knicks pick up a largely redundent SF Cope replacement, I will be a bit mystified.

    41. Hubert

      JK47: The plan was kind of effed up the minute they gave that contract to Amar’e.When you begin your rebuild by immediately giving out a bloated, unmovable contract, you’re really boxing yourself in.

      I kind of agree but I also lend a little credence to the “we
      got Melo cuz Amare was here” crowd’s argument. I don’t believe it but I can’t refute it.

    42. DCrockett17

      Z-man:
      I heard some compare Bargnani to Gallo and decided to take a closer look. [...] Unfortunately for Bargs, he went downhill from that point, but if he can get back on that track, we may have just re-acquired Gallo. If this happens, putting Bargs in the starting lineup may be the way to go.

      I will be rooting for Bargs to return to early career form. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. This isn’t baseball. Guys just don’t see their shooting fall off a cliff like that and then get it back in hoops.

    43. Unreason

      If Chris Anderson goes back to Miami it will be for the same kind of money the Knicks could offer. I think he’d be very valuable and hope GG, Melo etc. are reaching out to him also.

    44. JK47

      Unreason:
      If Chris Anderson goes back to Miami it will be for the same kind of money the Knicks could offer. I think he’d be very valuable and hope GG, Melo etc. are reaching out to him also.

      He’d have to be out of his mind to come here instead of staying there. Then again, the guy is kind of out of his mind.

    45. Z-man

      DCrockett17: I will be rooting for Bargs to return to early career form. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. This isn’t baseball. Guys just don’t see their shooting fall off a cliff like that and then get it back in hoops.

      I agree with the “this isn’t baseball” part. Hitting a baseball is a lot more complex than making a shot…ask Michael Jordan! However, it is unlikely that a guy would all of a sudden lose his ability to shoot, especially at this stage in his career. In Bargnani’s case, there’s no reason to believe that his shot is permanently broken. He just went through two injury-plagued years on a terribly-managed lottery team in a role that did not suit him well. Sounds like he just gave up, which is not a good thing. The question for me is about motivation. This is the opportunity of a lifetime for him.

    46. Unreason

      JK47: Then again, the guy is kind of out of his mind.

      Exactly. He comes across as a guy who might well shun what seems like the obvious choice, just ’cause.

    47. SeeWhyDee77

      Z-man: I agree with the “this isn’t baseball” part. Hitting a baseball is a lot more complex than making a shot…ask Michael Jordan! However, it is unlikely that a guy would all of a sudden lose his ability to shoot, especially at this stage in his career. In Bargnani’s case, there’s no reason to believe that his shot is permanently broken. He just went through two injury-plagued years on a terribly-managed lottery team in a role that did not suit him well. Sounds like he just gave up, which is not a good thing. The question for me is about motivation. This is the opportunity of a lifetime for him.

      Agreed. His coaches were Sam Mitchell and Dwayne Casey? It feel like I’m missing someone or I have all but Casey wrong. In any case..Casey’s a good up and comer as a coach..but in that situation with those coaches, I can see motivation not coming easy for him. Now, he’s in NY..with a bonafide star to take pressure off him, 2 other pieces that have been all stars- one of which has won a ring. And he has a coach that got through to JR Smith. That bein said..it is very possible that he finds his way again. Only question is health and can Woodson learn from his mistakes

    48. jon abbey

      Tyson Chandler not working on post moves with Olajuwon this summer, Melo and Amar’e are.

      wouldn’t want to cut into that awesome shooting percentage and actually help the team…

    49. JK47

      jon abbey:
      Tyson Chandler not working on post moves with Olajuwon this summer, Melo and Amar’e are.

      wouldn’t want to cut into that awesome shooting percentage and actually help the team…

      Maybe he’s trying to take it easy on the ol’ bulging disc.

    50. Hubert

      DCrockett17: I will be rooting for Bargs to return to early career form. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. This isn’t baseball. Guys just don’t see their shooting fall off a cliff like that and then get it back in hoops.

      I don’t agree at all.

      1. They do if the precipitous drop occurred in a year they were injured.

      2. Even great shooters like Ray Allen have seen their TS% falls by 50-60 bps and then return to career highs.

    51. Brian Cronin

      Man, some of these deals being handed out are crazy balls. I like Carl Landry a lot more than most people (well, at least before this past season), but what the hell is he going to do on Sacramento?

    52. SeeWhyDee77

      Would be nice if we could swing a deal for Asik somehow. I would almost be willing to throw LA a bone an take MWP off em in a 3 teamer. Well maybe not quite lol. But to me..Asik does a lot of what Chandler does..cept he’s younger and cheaper. Though he’s not as athletic, I don’t think there would be much of a drop off. A fan can dream I guess. Not that I want to dump Tyson, but replacing him with Asik helps our cap and gets us younger and healthier.

    53. bidiong

      jon abbey:
      Tyson Chandler not working on post moves with Olajuwon this summer, Melo and Amar’e are.

      wouldn’t want to cut into that awesome shooting percentage and actually help the team…

      I think it’s awesome theme going to work out with him together. I hope Amarè has one good fill year in those knees and he and Melo can give it one good run. Fuck Chandler in my opinion at this point.

    54. max fisher-cohen

      Z-man, I agree with you. I think if you look at 2008-present, the Knicks have been managed in a slightly above average way. They made the cap space, they developed their young players (remember how pissed Al Harrington was when Gallinari was stealing his burn?), and then they made a move.

      The problem was when Lebron fell through they decided, “well, we came to buy a star, right? Who made the all-star team last year?,” which in the NBA is totally untrue. And then with Anthony, “Well, they’re stars. They’ll work it out.” The Knicks were like really bad shoppers. After getting paid, they couldn’t even make it past Spencer Gifts without blowing all their money, and it wasn’t until they left the mall that they started wondering whether the fedora hat and aviators were their best look. I mean, let’s say SToudemire had re-signed with Phoenix. I still think NY woulda blown its load on whomever it could find, and Carlos Boozer woulda been a Knick instead.

      As far as Gallinari and co. go, I think the correct move would have been to make them lowball offers or roll them over into younger assets. Then, when Howard and Paul became FAs, you have the assets (or cap space) to get that great piece.

      In retrospect, the Harden deal looks like a coup, but I think less forward-thinking GMs viewed Harden as another JR Smith or Jamal Crawford type player. Sure, he scored a lot , but his defense was lackluster (still true), and he’d never had to carry the load by himself. Presti chose Ibaka over Harden — not a bad choice at the time — and I’m sure he got the most he could get in the Harden deal.

      It was luck, but Morey also made his own luck. Basically, the guy turned Rafer Alston into Kyle Lowry into Toronto’s pick into James Harden over a series of 4 years. Freakin brilliant.

      Question: If OKC had offered Perkins and Harden for Stoudemire in summer 2011, would NY have done the deal? I doubt it.

    55. Z-man

      I actually think that the most regrettable move of all (in hindsight, of course) was the Billups amnesty. Yes, it got us Chandler, so it wasn’t a waste, but the amnesty chip should not have been played 1) on an expiring contract and 2) in a situation where two long-term max deals were newly on the books. Billups’ expiring might have been a valuable mid-season asset and would have freed up cap space for 2012 FA deals at worst. I can’t really criticize not using amnesty on Amare at the time because that would have been a very cutthroat move, and it was widely felt that Amare deserved better.

    56. Frank

      max fisher-cohen: In retrospect, the Harden deal looks like a coup, but I think less forward-thinking GMs viewed Harden as another JR Smith or Jamal Crawford type player. Sure, he scored a lot , but his defense was lackluster (still true), and he’d never had to carry the load by himself. Presti chose Ibaka over Harden — not a bad choice at the time — and I’m sure he got the most he could get in the Harden deal.

      Harden is an amazing offensive player (especially while floptastic tactics still work), but he’s really a terrible defensive player. Remember – he was a net negative for Houston last year when on the floor despite playing the lion’s share of his minutes with the starters.

      Re: the way the team has been managed — yeah, it could have been better, but after not making the playoffs in a decade, we’ve made it 3 straight years (yes, 2 of them were 1st round outs) and there was clearly progress this year. We’ve got a puncher’s chance this year and next. Then we have the rebuild/reload after 2015. So 2 years teardown, 2 years buildup, 2-3 years of our best shot before that rebuild. That’s not so bad. And we are well positioned for that rebuild.

      A lot of this has to do with timing and whether you can make the big sell. When we had all that cap space, the obvious prizes (Wade/Lebron) decided not to come. The Mavs are exceptionally well run at least by reputation, and now they’re signing Devin Harris as their big move with their oodles of cap space. Can you really expect a team to just carry cap space over? And it’s not like cap space sits around forever– you have to extend your own guys, etc.

      cont…

    57. Frank

      Now IMHO – our problem was Donnie Walsh. I’ve always thought that. He did a horrible job reading Lebron James and what would appeal to him. Specifically – he thought that run-and-gun D’Antoni was a good match for Lebron. My guess is that Lebron walked in and asked MDA about defense, and MDA said “We’ll score so much we don’t need defense”.

      Think on this — possibly the two most coveted free agents of the last decade+ are LBJ and Dwight– and D’Antoni was involved in BOTH sells and was rejected twice. The dude revolutionized offensive basketball but is obviously not a great personality and does not relate well to players not named Steve Nash.

      Anyway – I think the overall strategy was sound. I think the FO’s ability to scout talent is top echelon. LBJ just didn’t want to come and we’ve been scrambling since. Maybe we never had a shot — maybe the Miami Thrice had this all planned out. Who knows.

      But — I think our FO’s negotiating ability is awful. If we had Grunwald’s talent evaluation + Ujiri or Morey’s negotiating skill, this team would be something else right now.

    58. bobneptune

      lavor postell:

      If this is based on the fact that we moved Gallinari, Chandler, Mozgov and a couple of first rounders for Melo I don’t get the logic.Look the Knicks have been mismanaged to the max for a long time, but since about 2008 I don’t think we’ve exactly given away any great young talent without getting something back.Trading those guys for Melo is a trade I’d make every day.

      LP,

      Unfortunately, trading Gallo, Chandler , Mozgov and picks )2-2′s. a 1 and a flip of 1′s in 2016) for Melo isn’t what happened. Anyone would be happy with that trade.

      Felton was added and Billups and Balkman (along with other exp.trash) came back.

      This set off a cascading sequence of events: rather than having a second large empty cap slot with Felton and the Pharaoh expiring (12 million) the following season, the Knicks were literally forced to give up another second rounder to bribe Washington to take Pharaoh and amnesty Billups to get Chandler. That was nice, but as we found it is difficult to win in the NBA without a point guard.

      And of course, with Billups eating up the amnesty, Amare is on the books for ever.

      They should have just played chicken with Melo and if he went to the Nyets, then so be it.

      In a counterfactual history had they stuck to their guns at the trade deadline even if Melo went to the Nyets, they would have had their 2 games over .500 team with Gallo and Chandler improving, their picks (3- 2′s and 2- 1′s) a max slot melo’s year, a big slot the following year and tons of flexibility to trade for, oh, I don’t know a Harden or Paul or D Will type when became available as well as a free agent like Howard, etc.

      They locked themselves into a non title chance and scavenging the scrapheap/crap heap for Barngani’s , K-Marts, Rashweed’s, Bibby’s, Kidd’s etc

      You can’t look at the trade in isolation, but rather the…

    59. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: Think on this — possibly the two most coveted free agents of the last decade+ are LBJ and Dwight– and D’Antoni was involved in BOTH sells and was rejected twice. The dude revolutionized offensive basketball but is obviously not a great personality and does not relate well to players not named Steve Nash.

      What a ridiculous thing to extrapolate from two multivariate situations. So because LeBron decided to go to Miami, which had a better offer on the table than the Knicks did, and Howard decided to go with Houston, which had a MUCH better offer than the Lakers did, it’s D’antoni’s personality that’s proving to be the decisive factor?

      Oh, I don’t know. Maybe tax-free Florida or Kobe “I Can Teach You to Win” Bryant’s ruptured Achilles might have something to do with it. Just maybe.

      I love how this sort of conjecture flies on this site. Seriously stupid.

    60. SeeWhyDee77

      Thas a 6 in one half dozen in the other kinda thing. U have 2 if the best defenders in the league tryina be sold on a coach who doesn’t scheme well defensively. That coach bein the constant. But on the other hand..Miami and Houston offered better situations. Take LA/Houston. Kobe’s hurt, with lots and lot of mileage and still has a death grip on the franchise. No real supporting cast there he can count on especially not knowing when or if Kobe’s ever gonna be Kobe again. A coach in D’Antoni that allegedly neither Kobe or Howard wanted. And an ego filled decision by the FO to prove they could win without Phil. While Houston offered a budding star in Harden, assets they could trade for better fits, a coach in McHale who is pretty good with a good big on his team. And a better FO and health situation. If u take NY/Miami..we had tons of space and an opportunity for LeBron to pick his sidekick. But the way Dolan runs the organization has been well chronicled. And I do think that was a deciding factor especially when it’s well known that Miami is run exceptionally well and they have a president who has rings, and Wade already in place. Miami was way more attractive especially considering what LeBron went through in Cleveland. Still can’t discount D’Antoni’s involvement though. Players love him most when they are PG’s given the keys or if he’s an assistant and just there to do offense. And I like D’Antoni..but his stubbornness is his greatest gift and his worst curse.

    61. Robtachi

      Given the rumblings that he’s very displeased with just about everything the Hawks are doing right now, any chance at maybe a S&T for Jeff Teague? Any way the Knicks have enough dispensable salary/assets to swing getting him out of a contentious situation? Is he simply going to command too much salary in a potential S&T? Can you even S&T restricted free agents?

    62. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: What a ridiculous thing to extrapolate from two multivariate situations. So because LeBron decided to go to Miami, which had a better offer on the table than the Knicks did, and Howard decided to go with Houston, which had a MUCH better offer than the Lakers did, it’s D’antoni’s personality that’s proving to be the decisive factor?

      I love how this sort of conjecture flies on this site. Seriously stupid.

      So you think if Phil Jackson or Pop are doing that sell that the chances aren’t better that we get our man? You think Pat Riley and his force of personality and all his rings had nothing to do with The Decision? You don’t think the MDA’s tendencies (shown time and again here and in LA) to manage personalities had anything to do with Dwight’s bad experience in LA? You really think tax free Florida was the thing that made LBJ go to Miami when he took a smaller contract to play there? Sorry dude, there are no randomized trials to prove this stuff. Sometimes you just need to see the situation for what it is/was.

      Look, I’m not saying that it’s all D’Antoni’s fault. It obviously isn’t. But he had two chances to reel in a generational talent and whiffed twice. People should start thinking maybe he’s not the guy if you want the big fish.

      And by the way, in what way did Miami have a clearly better offer? Bevause they were the favorite after LBJ went there? News flash to THCJ- any team that has Lebron James and any semblance of talent around him is the favorite EVERY YEAR until he starts to break down. If you put him in Boston right now with Rondo, Bradley, and Jeff Green, Boston is the favorite. If you put him on Washington with Bradley Beal, Porter, Okafor, and John Wall, they’re at least ECF material.

    63. Unreason

      Robtachi:
      Given the rumblings that he’s very displeased with just about everything the Hawks are doing right now, any chance at maybe a S&T for Jeff Teague? Any way the Knicks have enough dispensable salary/assets to swing getting him out of a contentious situation? Is he simply going to command too much salary in a potential S&T? Can you even S&T restricted free agents?

      Teague’s size/strength makes him a defensive liability. If a pg gets added instead of a big, I’m hoping for one that can slow up some of the many pgs that went through Felton like butter last season. Not sure who that is among available FAs, but IMO Teague would provide even less resistance.

    64. SeeWhyDee77

      I’d hate to say it or sound like I’m piling on Dolan..but even Sterling has been showing some competence here lately. Redick and Collison..Dudley is a good look for them too. They look strong especially when u consider the fact that they have a better coach now. Wow. Maybe thas the reason he chose not to stay in LA. Because he secretly wanted to be a Clipper? Lol

    65. alsep73

      Robtachi:
      Given the rumblings that he’s very displeased with just about everything the Hawks are doing right now, any chance at maybe a S&T for Jeff Teague? Any way the Knicks have enough dispensable salary/assets to swing getting him out of a contentious situation? Is he simply going to command too much salary in a potential S&T? Can you even S&T restricted free agents?

      We’re over both the cap and the apron, so we can’t receive signed-and-traded players. We can send out a signed-and-traded player (as we did to make the #s match for Bargnani, I believe), but the only players we can acquire in trades are ones already under contract.

      Darren Collison signed with the Clips (to again back up CP3), Zaza went to the Bucks, Earl Clark and Jarrett Jack to the Cavs, Rockets re-signed Francisco Garcia… lots of names we’ve been at least tangentially connected to are off the market today.

    66. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: So you think if Phil Jackson or Pop are doing that sell that the chances aren’t better that we get our man?

      This is such a straw-man. You’re talking about two of the best coaches of all-time. Even my beloved WP48 claims that they are the best coaches of the last thirty years.

    67. ptmilo

      DCrockett17: I will be rooting for Bargs to return to early career form. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. This isn’t baseball. Guys just don’t see their shooting fall off a cliff like that and then get it back in hoops.

      I’m not the President of the Bargs fan club, but that just isn’t true. It’s common to underestimate the volatility of 3P%. There are many, many examples of very good 3pt shooters who had poor stretches in their primes comparable to Bargnani’s last two years, and went on to return to prior form. Bargnani started his career going 507 for 1368 from 3, or 37.1%. Then over the last two years he shot 72 for 238, or 30.2%.

      Now look at Paul Pierce. He started his career almost identically, going 537 for 1388, or 37.0%. Over his next 775 (!) attempts, he only hit 233, for an extended 30.0% clip. He is a 37.0% career 3p shooter. That is an conveniently similar example, but there are myriad others.

      Jason Richardson had a 28.2% run on 273 attempts in his prime. Joe Johnson went 83 for 272 or 30.5%. Terry Porter went 71 for 226 or 31.4% (and was a career 38.6% 3pt shooter). Even Brent Barry, a 40.5% career shooter, went 52 for 172 for 30.2%. There are lots more, but I’m boring myself. These aren’t rookie year or last legs numbers, they are all right in the middle road, and were followed by a return to form.

    68. Frank

      Re: the Lakers- it is amazing to me that someone was given the chance to be the next banner holder for that franchise and left. Mike Greenberg said it and I agree completely – the loss of Jerry Buss is huge for that organization and it has changed everything. There is little doubt amongst the people in the know in LA that JimBuss didn’t hire Phil Jackson because of personal/ego issues. If Jerry Buss is around, Phil is the coach of the Lakers and it’s possible this whole situation is different.

    69. Brian Cronin

      We’re over both the cap and the apron, so we can’t receive signed-and-traded players. We can send out a signed-and-traded player (as we did to make the #s match for Bargnani, I believe), but the only players we can acquire in trades are ones already under contract.

      Darren Collison signed with the Clips (to again back up CP3), Zaza went to the Bucks, Earl Clark and Jarrett Jack to the Cavs, Rockets re-signed Francisco Garcia… lots of names we’ve been at least tangentially connected to are off the market today.

      The Cavs and Bucks are so weird. I mean, I guess the #8 seed is very much in reach (perhaps even the #7 seed) but for what purpose? Seems so weird to just sort of kind of improve when you weren’t that good to begin with.

    70. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This is such a straw-man. You’re talking about two of the best coaches of all-time. Even my beloved WP48 claims that they are the best coaches of the last thirty years.

      Lol you’re probably right. It sort of is a straw man. Even so- the sheen is long gone off D’Antoni. Half the teams in the league are running his offense and have coaches that can manage personalities and coach defense. The idea that he would be a good fit on the Lakers- with all those personalities, with all those old guys, with zero 3 point shooting- what a horrible choice.

      Meanwhile Darren Collison on the Clips is just piling on. Dwight turns down extra $ to leave The Lake Show, and players are taking under market contracts to go play for the Clips. This world is upside down.

    71. massive

      Is it just me, or are there no clear favorites this season? Dwyane Wade is breaking down continuously, Spoelstra insists on making Bosh play the role D’Antoni wanted Pau Gasol to play (only he’s not getting any grief because LeBron is on his team), and their role players are comprised of old guys, Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole. I think Miami, Chicago, Indiana, and New York will be on equal footing next season unless Miami makes a significant move, but Miami has been dormant while all the good FAs have been taken.

      Then out west you have the Clippers, the Rockets, the Thunder, the Grizzlies, and the Spurs all gunning for each other with no clear favorite, and then Golden State looks to be just as formidable if healthy.

      I think next season is going to be the best basketball season we’ve had in a while. This feels like the NFL in terms of unpredictability.

    72. max fisher-cohen

      Brian Cronin: The Cavs and Bucks are so weird. I mean, I guess the #8 seed is very much in reach (perhaps even the #7 seed) but for what purpose? Seems so weird to just sort of kind of improve when you weren’t that good to begin with.

      With the Bucks, my impression is it’s all about money. They are such a small market that they can’t endure 20 win seasons, so they dump money into guys like John Salmons and Zaza Pachulia. It is weird though that they’d dump their money into Zaza when they already have three centers — Sanders, Udoh, Henson. That team desperately needs new ownership.

      With the Cavs… I don’t know. Maybe it’s the same as the Wizards’ paranoia. THey don’t want to keep losing for fear that it will alienate Irving.

    73. max fisher-cohen

      @Frank

      I’ll admit that I’ve soured some on D’Antoni. I think he is a good coach in terms of designing an offense and will get wins when his guys can self-motivate (or if the team has a leader who can draw that from his guys), but he’s not good at managing egos. He’s sort of the anti-Woodson. Still, I think I’ll always feel that he got shafted by the Knicks.

      I also doubt Lebron was coming here no matter what and I think the simple fact that Walsh couldn’t get rid of Curry’s contract was the main reason Lebron didn’t come to NYC. There wasn’t enough cap space for the Knicks to sign Lebron and the buddies with whom he had colluded. Had NYK had a roster of Gallinari, Chandler and Douglas plus maybe an extra late first rounder from a David Lee sign and trade, they’d have looked a lot prettier of a destination than Miami.

      As far as the Mavs go, they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Dirk, Terry, Marion and Kidd were all 33+. Chandler had a lot of miles too. As it turned out, Chandler seems to have had about 1 1/2 more top tier seasons left on his body. Kidd, Marion, Dirk and Terry all declined in 11/12 and Kidd and Terry were both pretty bad this past season, so yeah, they struck out in free agency, but the alternative wasn’t much better.

      But yeah, everything’s a gamble. You just try to get as many lottery tickets as possible and hope you win, whether it’s in the draft or free agency.

      As far as the Knicks go, I really have no idea what to expect from next year. I could see anything from 38-58 wins. There were a lot of bad omens at the end of last season with Chandler and Melo’s health and JRs flameout, and I also wonder about how significant Kidd’s leadership was in terms of execution and staying calm under fire. But then Shumpert and Bargnani are total X-factors, and the team’s health wasn’t great last year, so with a lot of luck, NYK could surprise.

    74. lavor postell

      @69

      Yeah, but you’re also forgetting that the Knicks were operating without any idea of what market conditions would be under the new CBA. There were hard line owners pushing for a hard cap at $45 million and shit like that. They went all in on Melo, because they thought he was worth it and they wanted to make sure he was there prior to the old CBA expiring after the draft.

      Chandler would have been a restricted free agent that summer, so the Knicks simply couldn’t just keep him on a nice rookie deal, but would have had to pay him money at which point his value as an asset would decline. In an alternate world where we have Ill Will and don’t trade for Melo we also would have had to completely renounce our rights to Chandler before we would have had enough cap room for a second full max. Who knows if the Knicks even choose to keep him if he had gotten a big offer in free agency?

    75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: Lol you’re probably right. It sort of is a straw man. Even so- the sheen is long gone off D’Antoni. Half the teams in the league are running his offense and have coaches that can manage personalities and coach defense. The idea that he would be a good fit on the Lakers- with all those personalities, with all those old guys, with zero 3 point shooting- what a horrible choice.

      D’antoni, like most coaches, built a rep while he had top talent, and then lost his rep when it was revealed that — surprise! — he needed great players to be considered a great coach.

      Likewise, the sheen will be off Brad Stevens when he stops being able to find undervalued white-boy shooters who can’t play at Kentucky because of a “lack of athleticism.”

      Have you read his wikipedia page? He is the embodiment of Wins Produced. He told his team that the difference between their poor defense and a top defense was about three FG a game (which is true in many cases) and so they figured out a way to make just a few fewer mistakes per game. NCAA championship game berth. He says that he spends half his time looking at stats.

      And like with D’antoni and the Carmelo-led Knicks, I bet that Danny Ainge is going to expect him to turn Jeff Green and co. into a contender instead of giving him the statistically efficient players he craved as a college coach.

      “Why isn’t this working!?!?!? He’s a great coach!!!!!”

    76. Juany8

      Nice post max, I actually think the Knicks have a chance to be better in the regular season this year since they’ll have more young bodies not as worried about staying fresh for the playoffs. Shump will have the full year this time, prigs is experienced now and much improved over where he was during the 18-5 stretch to start the season, and the Knicks have done so well with drafts lately that I have hope someone we’re not thinking about much now will come in and give us the production, Shawne Williams, Steve Novak, and copeland have given us the past few seasons. Knicks have a knack for finding and developing role players.

    77. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Nice post max, I actually think the Knicks have a chance to be better in the regular season this year since they’ll have more young bodies not as worried about staying fresh for the playoffs. Shump will have the full year this time, prigs is experienced now and much improved over where he was during the 18-5 stretch to start the season, and the Knicks have done so well with drafts lately that I have hope someone we’re not thinking about much now will come in and give us the production, Shawne Williams, Steve Novak, and copeland have given us the past few seasons. Knicks have a knack for finding and developing role players.

      The Knicks started 18-5 because Kidd was shooting like .800 TS% to start the season.

      Bargnani gets starter’s minutes, this team wins 45 and the causal arguments shall begin.

    78. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: D’antoni, like most coaches, built a rep while he had top talent, and then lost his rep when it was revealed that — surprise! — he needed great players to be considered a great coach.

      Likewise, the sheen will be off Brad Stevens when he stops being able to find undervalued white-boy shooters who can’t play at Kentucky because of a “lack of athleticism.”

      Have you read his wikipedia page? He is the embodiment of Wins Produced. He told his team that the difference between their poor defense and a top defense was about three FG a game (which is true in many cases) and so they figured out a way to make just a few fewer mistakes per game. NCAA championship game berth. He says that he spends half his time looking at stats.

      And like with D’antoni and the Carmelo-led Knicks, I bet that Danny Ainge is going to expect him to turn Jeff Green and co. into a contender instead of giving him the statistically efficient players he craved as a college coach.

      “Why isn’t this working!?!?!? He’s a great coach!!!!!”

      Why do you waste so much time attracting silly straw men arguments? Nobody thinks that a coach can take a collection of shitty players and make them awesome, the argument is that they do have some impact and they are therefore a way to potentially add value to your team without sacrificing assets or cap space (unless you’re an idiot team like the clippers)

      There’s a sliding scale of talent in the coaching ranks, and the difference between most coaches is probably not that large. Nobody expects a coach to just come in and take the bobcats to the playoffs, you still need the players to actually win, but a coach can make some impact, and should not be simply ignored. You can’t just sit there and pretend mike D’Antoni and mike Woodson had zero impact on the team for instance

    79. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Knicks started 18-5 because Kidd was shooting like .800 TS% to start the season.

      Bargnani gets starter’s minutes, this team wins 45 and the causal arguments shall begin.

      Again this is such a stupid post. If Bargniani is getting starter minutes, it’s because of injuries. If the Knicks have a bunch of injuries then no shit they’re going to have a bad season. Why on earth would you think bargs is going to play a bunch of minutes? Where’s your excuse for predicting 48 wins last season?

    80. Juany8

      Fun fact: Ronnie brewer and Marcus camby were supposed to be amazing pickups by the Knicks accoridng to WP. Not good for a minimum contract pickups, better than Melo and Amare at the same price pickups. If only Woodson had been smart enough to play them!

    81. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Again this is such a stupid post. If Bargniani is getting starter minutes, it’s because of injuries.

      You don’t think Bargnani will be playing 30 MPG at PF/C even if Amar’e is healthy?

    82. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Fun fact: Ronnie brewer and Marcus camby were supposed to be amazing pickups by the Knicks accoridng to WP. Not good for a minimum contract pickups, better than Melo and Amare at the same price pickups. If only Woodson had been smart enough to play them!

      More dismissive bullshit from Juany8. Surprise!

    83. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You don’t think Bargnani will be playing 30 MPG at PF/C even if Amar’e is healthy?

      Uhhhh no? Why on earth would he? Was Novak playing 30 minutes? Or Novak and copeland combined? I think there’s a higher chance he plays zero minutes than 30 a game lol

    84. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: More dismissive bullshit from Juany8. Surprise!

      It sucks when facts get in the way of your precious stats huh? At that point the only real argument you have left is to try to pretend I’m an idiot, a claim you’ll have a hard time convincing pretty much anyone of. Just like the claim that Tiago splitter is better than Melo lol

    85. jon abbey

      the PF/C situation is going to be fascinating (probably not in a good way), because the key to NY’s great offense last year was Melo at the 4 and Woodson hasn’t shown any interest in moving him to the 3. that leaves maybe 58 minutes per game for Chandler/Amare/Bargnani combined, unless Bargnani plays some SF. I honestly have no idea how it will work if everyone is healthy.

    86. nicos

      To be fair, D’A might be the most influential coach of the last 10 years or so- certainly offensively. Most teams have incorporated at least some of his pnr sets though no one runs them to he extent that he does. Unfortunately his ego made him force feed his system to players (Dwight and Melo) who really weren’t comfortable with it- if he had met them halfway and let them get more of the post touches they wanted there’s a chance he might still be coaching here or Dwight might still be in L.A. I donT think he can win a championship without letting someone else run the defense (and actually giving enough practice time to implement it) and at least running a few more traditional half-court sets but there’s no denying he’s changed the game offensively.

    87. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      the PF/C situation is going to be fascinating (probably not in a good way), because the key to NY’s great offense last year was Melo at the 4 and Woodson hasn’t shown any interest in moving him to the 3. that leaves maybe 58 minutes per game for Chandler/Amare/Bargnani combined, unless Bargnani plays some SF. I honestly have no idea how it will work if everyone is healthy.

      Melo can play some 10-15 minutes at the 3 to open up room, he’ll spend the majority of his time at the 4 but he doesn’t have to play there exclusively, and Woodson did that when Amar’e was back. K-Mart or Brand needs to be back though, Amar’e/Bargs playing the 5 would be a disaster. I really think Bargs is going to get Novak/Copeland level minutes unless he breaks out in a big way, I really don’t think he was brought in to be some kind of major player. Plus, since Bargs can shoot the Melo/Chandler/Bargs pairing should theoretically work on offense, although I don’t know if I want that lineup playing much lol. Much of this depends on Amare’s health

    88. Brian Cronin

      I dunno, Jon. Do you really think that they’ll play Bargs at the 3? I don’t know that I think that the Knicks can’t have a good offensive season with Melo at the 3, although yes, it does seem that everything gets kicked up a notch when he plays the 4. But mostly I just want Shump out of the 3 spot. I don’t really care who plays the 3 so long as it isn’t Shump.

    89. Brian Cronin

      To be fair, D’A might be the most influential coach of the last 10 years or so- certainly offensively. Most teams have incorporated at least some of his pnr sets though no one runs them to he extent that he does. Unfortunately his ego made him force feed his system to players (Dwight and Melo) who really weren’t comfortable with it- if he had met them halfway and let them get more of the post touches they wanted there’s a chance he might still be coaching here or Dwight might still be in L.A. I donT think he can win a championship without letting someone else run the defense (and actually giving enough practice time to implement it) and at least running a few more traditional half-court sets but there’s no denying he’s changed the game offensively.

      Not for nothing, but D’Antoni was 40-32 in 72 games as the Lakers coach, with no lead time to implement his system and major time lost to injuries for everyone but Kobe and Dwight (and Dwight obviously was playing hurt the whole year and Kobe ended the year playing hurt). That really doesn’t seem all that bad.

    90. jon abbey

      even if Melo plays 10-15 minutes at the 3, that leaves only about 65 minutes combined for Chandler/Amare/Bargnani/an actual backup C. I had no idea how Woodson was going to fit Chandler/Amare/Melo together last year (it ended up being mostly a non-issue since Amare played so little), and Bargnani just makes it even harder.

    91. Brian Cronin

      I do agree that it’ll be a hard task for Woody and I can’t say that I’m not a bit worried about it.

    92. nicos

      I wouldn’t be shocked if Bargs gets 25+ minutes (and only a little surprised if winds up starting 30+ games. Woodson has made noises about at least considering getting back to a more traditional lineup and Bargs allows them to keep the floor spaced for Melo and saves him from having to guard pf’s on the other end. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t want to play an Amar’e, Melo, Chandler front line and given that the Knicks did give up those draft picks (and really didn’t seem to bend over backwards looking for creative ways to keep Cope) you have to think they hope to play him a fair amount.

    93. Juany8

      Here’s why I’m not super worried: Early last year, Sheed was playing well, Kidd was amazing at the 2, Ronnie Brewer was hitting 3′s and playing good defense, Kurt Thomas was giving us decent minutes, and people (myself included) were starting to wonder how Woodson was going to fit in Shump, Camby, and Amar’e when they came back, and Shump even looked expendable since Brewer was playing well and Reddick and Dudley were potentially being offered for him.

      Then everything kind of fell apart, to the point where James White started freaking games, and Copeland actually got rotation minutes. Think about that, we were worried about juggling Kidd, Brewer, Shumpert, and JR at the 2 and 3 spots, then suddenly James White was starting. Same with Melo, Amar’e, Chandler, Camby, and Sheed at the 4 and 5, then freaking Kmart was finishing game in the playoffs and Copeland got a nice contract out of some unexpectedly solid play.

      So there might be a minute crunch, but maybe we shouldn’t be worrying about Woodson finding minutes for them to play as much as we should be worrying about how many minutes they’re capable of playing. After all, Chandler, Amar’e, and Bargs are all coming off injury filled seasons, and either K-Mart or Brand would be getting up there in age and have had plenty of injuries throughout their careers. Just saying it’s something we should keep in mind when Jerome Jordan and jared Jeffries are playing the backup 4 and 5 around game 50 of next season haha

    94. jon abbey

      I’m worried either way, if they’re healthy or if they’re not. they need to add two legit big men who aren’t sieves on D, and then I’ll feel a lot better.

    95. Juany8

      nicos:
      I wouldn’t be shocked if Bargs gets 25+ minutes (and only a little surprised if winds up starting 30+ games.Woodson has made noises about at least considering getting back to a more traditional lineup and Bargs allows them to keep the floor spaced for Melo and saves him from having to guard pf’s on the other end.It’s pretty clear he doesn’t want to play an Amar’e, Melo, Chandler front line and given that the Knicks did give up those draft picks (and really didn’t seem to bend over backwards looking for creative ways to keep Cope) you have to think they hope to play him a fair amount.

      Woodson wasn’t exactly in love with Copeland and Novak last year, if he’s making noises about playing more traditionally, I don’t think Bargs fits his definition just because he’s a 7 footer lol. I really think bargs will be taking Copeland and Novak’s playing time as essentially a 3 on offense and 4 on defense. Unless there are serious issues finding bodies, or he plays unexpectedly well, I don’t think they brought him in to be a major player. Knicks threw away a draft pick to get rid of Jared Jeffries not too long ago, they just don’t value late picks that much. And I know many people here hate that kind of strategy, but that’s honestly the exact same thing Dallas did to win a championship, they had basically zero homegrown talent other than Dirk the year they won the championship, they just kept reloading around Dirk and paying a ton of money for the team in free agency.

    96. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      I’m worried either way, if they’re healthy or if they’re not. they need to add two legit big men who aren’t sieves on D, and then I’ll feel a lot better.

      Yea I’d be terrified of playing the full season with Amare and Bargs as the only backup big men on the roster. Copeland wouldn’t have solved the problem either lol, Knicks really need Kmart back

    97. JK47

      Jowles is dead right about one thing: if Bargnani plays 30+ minutes as the “power forward” then this team is gonna have some serious problems. We know he’s not gonna rebound, and we know he’s going to be a disaster on defense, and don’t give me this crap about what a great on-ball defender he is. He’s a lousy overall defensive player and smart opponents will take advantage of his weaknesses on D, believe me.

      They will need to pick Bargnani’s spots and get him into situations where he can succeed, and not expect him to turn into Dirk Nowitzki 13,000 minutes into his career. I’m starting to get nervous that the Knicks have not locked up K-Mart or Brand, because right now there’s one frontcourt player on the roster with even a prayer of being an above-average defensive player, and that’s obviously Chandler.

    98. jon abbey

      yeah, that’s pretty much what I just said. I guess I don’t see how a team can play both Amar’e and Bargnani without getting killed on D. the only solution seems to be for them to both solely play the 4, while Melo plays the 3 and Chandler/a real big man yet to be on our roster play all 48 minutes at the 5, but I don’t see that happening.

    99. Brian Cronin

      Anyone understand what the Mavs are thinking with adding Devin Harris and Jose Calderon? I mean, I guess they’re going to go with the two point guard lineup that worked so well in 2012, but boy, seems odd.

    100. Brian Cronin

      What do you all think Bynum will end up signing for? I could see him going for a one-year make-good deal for a team on the mini-MLE.

    101. Juany8

      Brian Cronin:
      What do you all think Bynum will end up signing for? I could see him going for a one-year make-good deal for a team on the mini-MLE.

      Andrew Bynum or Will Bynum? I have to think someone is going to pay Andrew Bynum more than the mini MLE

    102. Brian Cronin

      Andrew.

      My thing with Andrew Bynum is that he is not even willing to work out for teams. Doesn’t that have to dissuade teams from giving him a big payday?

    103. danvt

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Howard decided to go with Houston, which had a MUCH better offer than the Lakers did, it’s D’antoni’s personality that’s proving to be the decisive factor?

      Couldn’t LA have given him 30 million more? How’s Houstons offer MUCH better?

    104. ptmilo

      Brian Cronin:
      What do you all think Bynum will end up signing for? I could see him going for a one-year make-good deal for a team on the mini-MLE.

      This is a total misread. When Bynum and Pachulia go out to dinner this year, Bynum will still be buying. By a wide margin. He will get more than the mini MLE and the MLE combined.

    105. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: It sucks when facts get in the way of your precious stats huh? At that point the only real argument you have left is to try to pretend I’m an idiot, a claim you’ll have a hard time convincing pretty much anyone of. Just like the claim that Tiago splitter is better than Melo lol

      “facts” like “Ronnie Brewer can’t be more productive than Carmelo Anthony in achieving desirable outcomes in an NBA game”

      what a fact, you are certifiably retarded

    106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Uhhhh no? Why on earth would he? Was Novak playing 30 minutes? Or Novak and copeland combined? I think there’s a higher chance he plays zero minutes than 30 a game lol

      Bookmarked so you can eat your crow later.

    107. Brian Cronin

      This is a total misread. When Bynum and Pachulia go out to dinner this year, Bynum will still be buying. By a wide margin. He will get more than the mini MLE and the MLE combined.

      But here’s the thing – if he takes the mini-MLE and proves himself on a good team, the following year he will roughly make in one year what Pachulia makes over the length of his contract. I don’t see why he would lock himself into a $8-10 million contract when all he has to do is prove he is healthy for a good team for a single year and then he can make $20 million a year the next season. And if he is not healthy, that $8 million contract will still be there the next season.

    108. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: “facts” like “Ronnie Brewer can’t be more productive than Carmelo Anthony in achieving desirable outcomes in an NBA game”

      what a fact, you are certifiably retarded

      This is what I love about you THCJ, you argue my points for me by making silly posts like this. 3 different contenders thought Ronnie Brewer was crap last season other than a hot shooting stretch early on, and you’re trying to make the case that he’s better than Carmelo Anthony. I don’t even have to attack your posts anymore, they’re too dumb to take seriously by anyone who isn’t involved with the WP cult/ troll act.

    109. Juany8

      Keep up the childish insults by the way, throwing a tantrum on the internet is easily the best way to convince people you know the truth about basketball and all its ways.

    110. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: 3 different contenders thought Ronnie Brewer was crap last season other than a hot shooting stretch early on, and you’re trying to make the case that he’s better than Carmelo Anthony.

      Wow, what a story, Mark!

      Nothing like a little appeal to authority! I love when posters assume that the general managers of sporting franchises make good decisions! I’ve never read Moneyball, but I’m sure of it!

    111. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Wow, what a story, Mark!

      Nothing like a little appeal to authority! I love when posters assume that the general managers of sporting franchises make good decisions! I’ve never read Moneyball, but I’m sure of it!

      Again, another stupid attack against a stupid straw man, not all general managers make good decisions, but when 3 separate successful teams think you’re garbage, and nobody this year is in a rush to sign you, you’re probably garbage. See for your logic to work, every single manager in the NBA has to be retarded. Not many, or even 99%, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Go ahead and make that claim, it just makes you look even sillier. I really don’t know what it is you’re trying to get out of these discussions, but I do know that you’ve probably convinced this entire board that WP is a joke all on your own, it’s like arguing against a little kid who thinks screaming loudly wins debates.

    112. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Again, another stupid attack against a stupid straw man, not all general managers make good decisions, but when 3 separate successful teams think you’re garbage, and nobody this year is in a rush to sign you, you’re probably garbage. See for your logic to work, every single manager in the NBA has to be retarded. Not many, or even 99%, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Go ahead and make that claim, it just makes you look even sillier. I really don’t know what it is you’re trying to get out of these discussions, but I do know that you’ve probably convinced this entire board that WP is a joke all on your own, it’s like arguing against a little kid who thinks screaming loudly wins debates.

      Sam Presti chose Russell Westbrook over James Harden. No, this was not a good choice.

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