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Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jan 21 2012)

  • [New York Post] Calls for D’Antoni’s job as Knicks lose 5th straight (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:55:06 -0500)
    The Knicks and Nuggets will face each other tonight for the first time since the Carmelo Anthony trade last February.
    The Knicks may have gotten the best player in that deal, but judging by their recent collapse, they don’t have the better team, something they proved in stretching their…

  • [New York Post] Downward spiral makes it hard to remain Melo (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:50:18 -0500)
    Talk about bad timing. Carmelo Anthony heads into tonight’s grudge match against his former team, the Nuggets, at one of the lowest moments of his NBA career.
    Anthony was so frustrated during the Knicks’ fifth straight loss, a 100-86 shellacking by the awful Bucks last night, he got himself…

  • [New York Post] D’Antoni not solely to blame for this mess (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:06:15 -0500)
    James Dolan should not fire coach Mike D’Antoni today.
    Because if he did, in good conscience, the Knicks owner also would have to fire himself, interim general manager Glen Grunwald, and ship Carmelo Anthony back to Denver, Amar’e Stoudemire back to Phoenix and Toney Douglas back to Florida…

  • [New York Post] Gallo is eager to face Melo in Garden return (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:44:50 -0500)
    Danilo Gallinari, returning to the Garden tonight for the first time since leaving in February as part of the trade for Carmelo Anthony, just wants to win in Denver’s initial meeting with the Knicks since that blockbuster deal.
    “In my case it’s going to be particularly emotional, but…

  • [New York Daily News] Baron sets sights on Knick debut (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:49:19 GMT)
    Baron Davis may already be the Knicks’ MVP without having played a single game. Davis, sidelined with a back injury since the start of training camp in December, knows that he is being looked at as a savior. He’s fine with those expectations but he still can’t say when he’ll be back on the court.

  • [New York Daily News] From bad to worse: Fans boo Knicks during fifth straight loss (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:38:37 GMT)
    The chants ranged from “Fire D’Antoni” to “Phil Jackson” to “Let’s go Giants.” This is what happens when fans are bored and frustrated. The Knicks specialize is doing this to their paying customers.

  • [New York Daily News] Madison Garden Garden fans show discontent with NY Knicks (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:26:25 GMT)
    CARMELO ANTHONY says he can’t tolerate being “punkedâ? on the basketball court, and as a result, the Knicks’ small forward â?? on the eve of facing his former teammates â?? was ejected with 93 seconds to play.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] D'Antoni on boos: 'I don't blame them' (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:51:18 EDT)
    With about 2:23 left to play on Friday and the Knicks down 12, the chant started raining down.
    Calls of “Fire D’Antoni!” mixed in with loud boos for New York, which was well on its way to a fifth straight loss.
    Mike D’Antoni heard the crowd’s reaction.
    “I don’t blame them,” D’Antoni said. “Half my family is probably doing that. It goes with the territory. We’re not playing well.”
    The Knicks are 6-9 and have struggled mightily on the offensive end.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Carmelo: Knicks got 'punked' (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:23:06 EDT)
    The Knicks lost to a Milwaukee team that came into town on a three-game losing streak and without a road win in eight tries on Friday night.
    In Carmelo Anthony’s world, that means they got punked.
    “We didn’t have any intensity tonight, man,” Anthony said after the Knicks lost their fifth straight. “They outplayed us, they outworked us. I felt like they punked us tonight. That’s just my own personal feeling. Hopefully we bounce back tomorrow and we’ll be the team that’s doing the punking.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Missed layups, missed layups and more … (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:12:04 EDT)
    NEW YORK — The Knicks played so bad offensively, once again, shooting 37 percent from the field, that they “didn’t even lay the ball in well,” as Iman Shumpert said after the Knicks’ 100-86 loss to the Bucks Friday night.
    In fact, Mike D’Antoni, during his postgame press conference, said, “Offensively, we’re a wreck.” The Knicks’ usual offensive problems continued tonight: slow ball movement, too much hesitation, minimal penetration and kick outs, and poor outside shooting — the fifth time already this season they’ve been under 40 percent in a game.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Jennings gets Melo tossed (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:34:29 EDT)
    NEW YORK – The Garden had been yearning for someone to show some gumption, to make a big play, to shake things up for crying loud out. That player was Milwaukee Bucks guard Brandon Jennings.
    Jennings did his best to repeatedly kick the Knicks while they layed down. The final blow came when Jennings drilled a 3-pointer with 1:39 left while Carmelo Anthony knocked him to the floor. Jennings and Anthony started jawing afterward and continued when Andrew Bogut fouled Anthony on the following play to sent him to the free throw line.

  • [New York Times] Bucks 100, Knicks 86: Anthony and Knicks Struggle as Losing Streak Hits 5 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:07:49 GMT)
    Just one night before Carmelo Anthony faces his old team, he went 11 for 26 from the floor and got ejected from the game.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: 76ers Use Third-Quarter Run to Snap Hawks’ Four-Game Winning Streak (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:07:36 GMT)
    Jrue Holiday had 16 points and 11 assists, and Thaddeus Young scored 20 points to lead the Philadelphia 76ers to a 90-76 win over the Atlanta Hawks on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Love Hits 3 at Buzzer, Timberwolves Top Clippers (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:54:06 GMT)
    Kevin Love hit a 3-pointer at the buzzer after Ricky Rubio’s tying 3 with 20 seconds to play, lifting the Minnesota Timberwolves to a pulsating 101-98 victory over the Los Angeles Clippers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Hill’s Three-Point Play Lifts Pacers Over Warriors (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:15:01 GMT)
    George Hill scored on a three-point play with 1.8 seconds remaining and the Indiana Pacers held off a late charge by Golden State to beat the Warriors 94-91 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Evans, Kings Stun Spurs 88-86 in Final Minute (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:36:00 GMT)
    Tyreke Evans had 23 points and 11 rebounds, including the go-ahead jumper with 47.2 seconds left to give the Sacramento Kings a surprising 88-86 road victory over the San Antonio Spurs on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Bulls Rise Without Rose for Big Win in Cleveland (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:51:59 GMT)
    The league-leading Bulls shrugged off the absence of Derrick Rose to outclass the Cavaliers 114-75 on Friday, handing Cleveland their worst home loss in franchise history as Chicago continued to dominate on the road.

  • [New York Times] Evans, Kings Stun Spurs 88-86 in Final Minute (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:38:52 GMT)
    Tyreke Evans had 23 points and 11 rebounds, including the go-ahead jumper with 47.2 seconds left to give the Sacramento Kings a surprising 88-86 road victory over the San Antonio Spurs on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Howard’s Big Night Carries Magic Past Lakers 92-80 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:00:29 GMT)
    Dwight Howard scored 21 points and grabbed 23 rebounds, and the Orlando Magic survived a tough shooting performance for a 92-80 win over the Los Angeles Lakers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Beat Knicks 100-86 for First Road Win (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:17:54 GMT)
    Brandon Jennings scored a season-high 36 points, and the Milwaukee Bucks won on the road for the first time this season by beating the New York Knicks 100-86 Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Pull Away in 4th, Rout Pistons 98-81 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:18:05 GMT)
    Rudy Gay scored 24 points and the Memphis Grizzlies held off a second-half rally by Detroit to beat the Pistons 98-81 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Gortat Scores 24 to Lead Suns Past Celts 79-71 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:12:33 GMT)
    Marcin Gortat scored 24 points with 12 rebounds and Steve Nash had 11 points and nine assists on Friday night to lead the Phoenix Suns to a 79-71 victory over the Boston Celtics.

  • [New York Times] Bulls Coast Without Rose, Pound Cavaliers 114-75 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:12:25 GMT)
    Luol Deng scored 21 points, Carlos Boozer added 19 and 14 rebounds, and the Chicago Bulls managed easily without superstar Derrick Rose, embarrassing the Cleveland Cavaliers 114-75 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Aldridge Has 30-20 Night as Blazers Beat Raptors (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:48:00 GMT)
    LaMarcus Aldridge had a season-high 33 points and a career-best 23 rebounds, and the Portland Trail Blazers beat the Raptors 94-84 on Friday to hand Toronto its seventh consecutive loss.

  • [New York Times] Harrington Leads Nuggets Over Wizards 108-104 (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:47:52 GMT)
    Al Harrington scored a season-high 29 points, and Danilo Gallinari and Ty Lawson each had 21 to lead the Denver Nuggets over the Washington Wizards 108-104 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Iguodala Rallies 76ers in 3rd for Win Over Hawks (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:32:53 GMT)
    Jrue Holiday had 16 points and 11 assists, and Thaddeus Young scored 20 points to lead the Philadelphia 76ers to a 90-76 win over the Atlanta Hawks on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Bulls’ Derrick Rose Out Again With Toe Injury (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:09:11 GMT)
    Derrick Rose’s injured toe is better, just not good enough to risk playing on.

  • [New York Newsday] Reeling Knicks drop fifth in a row (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:11:15 EST)
    The crisis continues for Mike D'Antoni and the Knicks, and it could be reaching a critical stage.

  • [New York Newsday] Anthony, Gallinari to face former teams (Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:30:24 EST)
    Carmelo Anthony won't return to Denver this season, but on Saturday night, Danilo Gallinari will make his first Madison Square Garden appearance since the mammoth trade last February.

  • 96 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jan 21 2012)

    1. LamontWallace

      Let’s trade everyone every time we face hardship.

      Success will be instant.

      D-Will has plenty of skilled people to pass to on our roster.

      D-Will must be a winner because the Brooklyn Nets are undefeated.

      The best way to give a team an identity is to make all players afraid of being traded regardless of their all star status.

      If D-Will struggles here, maybe its D’Antoni no its Amare.

      Trade Amare for Howard.

      What do the Magic want?

      Everything.

      Trade the team for Howard.

      Yes.

      Still losing.

      Lets bring in Van Gundy, or move up Woodson, or bring in Phil Jackson.

      Is Iguodala available?

    2. Gideon Zaga

      No i got a better idea lets trade these boneheaded “fans” for denver fans since we are now so infatuated with the players we lost in the trade.

    3. xduckshoex

      So much misguided sarcasm in these parts these days.

      Nobody is saying to trade everyone, but if guard play is the teams biggest problem right now it does make sense to make a trade to improve the teams guard play and Williams is one of the best there is.

    4. hoolahoop

      Let me try this.
      Melo is so awesome. He’s the only player on the team that can score. I sure hope he doesn’t pass to anyone else. We know they’ll just turn it over. I think he should shoot every single shot. That’s our best chance. He scored 35 last night and we still lost. It’s because everyone else sucks. The idiots on this message board talk about ball movement. I agree. Move the ball to Melo and let him shoot. He’s the best and he should take every shot. I love Melo.
      The posters on my walls are a little stained and sticky, but they still look great! I don’t know if you can tell, but I love Melo.

    5. Juany8

      Don’t worry Lamont, Lebron becomes available in 4 years! After all who cares about things like continuity and proper fit, who has time to wait for a roster to be healthy and filled out, we’re the Knicks, it doesn’t matter that multiple All star or All star level players left strong contending teams (or an actual champion) to come to New York, they needed to give us discounts so we could get more great players!

      Philadelphia started something like 3-12 last year and their fans were probably a lot more worried than Knicks fans have any right to be. Now they lead the NBA in point differential, doing so through strong teamwork, a solid defensive scheme, and great ball movement, everything we supposedly want. Bulls started 9-8 last year, looking like the 50-55 win team everyone had pegged them to be, before running off to the best record in the NBA. We don’t have NBA caliber players at 2 positions on the floor at any given time (Shump will be but he’s a rookie). That’s always going to be our downfall, even if we get Dwight for Amar’e

    6. danvt

      I’m starting to rethink my optimism. The thing I said going into this season was, let’s not think championship just yet. Let’s just see if we can handle teams like the Bucks. Well, we scored 86 and lost by 14 at home to a team with no road wins.

      Right now, an apt question to ask is if there’s a worse team in the NBA than the Knicks.

    7. daJudge

      My biggest concern now, after about one quarter of the season, is that the Knicks are actually performing at their real talent level. Position by position, at this point, within this scheme:
      1. No point guard-Grade F;
      2. Shooting Guards-Grade D;
      3. Small Forwards, decent play, with noted deficiencies-Grade C;
      4. No real PF play, Grade D;
      5. Center, Grade B+ .
      Bench-Grade D, would be an F, but Jorts has played well.
      Coaching-Grade D.
      Overall Defense-B.
      Rookie play-B+.
      We really are what our record shows at this point. This could certainly change, but by how much is anyone’s guess. Very depressing. Robert, I feel like I just ate a sh-load of prime rib. BTW, did you win a prize for eating all that? Just wondering.

    8. d-mar

      Watching the game in person last night, I was struck by the difference in the way our offense ran vs. the Bucks. They continued to move the ball, move the ball until they found a decent shot, granted, a lot of times it ended up being a Jennings heave (most went in unfortunately) Then you watch our offense, and there’s no ball movement, no easy shots, guy standing around, ugly turnover.

      But it’s not just Melo being a ball stopper, it’s just an overall offensive breakdown that results in one awful possession after another. The Bucks had lineups of players you wouldn’t recognize if they walked up to you on the street, but they still managed to score 100 pts. by running a smart offense. I’ve always been a D’Antoni supporter, but if his reputation is as an offensive genius, why does our offense look so completely horrible game after game? I don’t want to hear the no training camp, preseason excuse anymore, we’re all in the same boat. And even with no true PG, you have to execute on offense on occasion.

      Something has to change.

    9. hoolahoop

      Oh yeah, and these guys that have been rooting for the knicks for twenty, thirty, forty years. They should find another team to root for. I discovered basketball last year and now I’m a real knick fan. I say only good things about their star, Melo. A real knick fan would never criticize his team, especially their superstar. Superstars are great.

    10. Juany8

      Also has anyone seen what Deron Williams has been doing? The Nets are terrible and so is he. He’s shooting 37%. Williams is doing terrible and the Nets are totally terrible. Somehow he’s a better option than Melo who was playing better than ever this year before his injury. Deron Williams isn’t going to make Fields and Walker real basketball players, and the best case explanation for what he’s doing this year is that he doesn’t care about his situation with the Nets and therefore isn’t playing hard. Otherwise he’s taken quite a fall since he stopped playing with a hall of fame coach with a great offensive system that played to his strengths.

    11. Gideon Zaga

      So how about the open shots, yes I mean wide open shots, and amare with a pass from shump under the basket with a smaller guy in front of him, makes me wander what happened to that great vertical leap he had, maybe he gave it to Blake

      d-mar:
      Watching the game in person last night, I was struck by the difference in the way our offense ran vs. the Bucks. They continued to move the ball, move the ball until they found a decent shot, granted, a lot of times it ended up being a Jennings heave (most went in unfortunately) Then you watch our offense, and there’s no ball movement, no easy shots, guy standing around, ugly turnover.

      But it’s not just Melo being a ball stopper, it’s just an overall offensive breakdown that results in one awful possession after another. The Bucks had lineups of players you wouldn’t recognize if they walked up to you on the street, but they still managed to score 100 pts. by running a smart offense. I’ve always been a D’Antoni supporter, but if his reputation is as an offensive genius, why does our offense look so completely horrible game after game? I don’t want to hear the no training camp, preseason excuse anymore, we’re all in the same boat. And even with no true PG, you have to execute on offense on occasion.

      Something has to change.

    12. danvt

      And, let’s not blame PG play, or Melo, or coach D. Everyone in this organization needs to be accountable. That’s how you become the Yankees or the NY Giants, or the Patriots. People lose their jobs when they don’t do them right. Every single player, coach and executive needs to be worried about their job right now.

    13. hoolahoop

      Gideon Zaga:
      Oh BTW while the Knicks were losing last night,guess what Jeremy Lin did in the D league,yes an effing triple double,are you kidding me

      http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded%26v%3DmSRcALuqO7I&feature=player_embedded&v=mSRcALuqO7I&gl=US

      The problem is the point guards. I love Melo. Why can’t this team find a D League PG that can do better than the crap we got. I love Melo. That’s why there’s no ball movement. I love Melo. Our guards suck.

    14. Gideon Zaga

      Look people its time we face the real problem, its the coach, yeah u can say its his first real line up and blah blah, but so has Nate Mcmillan and he continues to be in contention every single year. You claim we have no guards yet Lin goes to the D-league and ends up with a triple double, are you kidding me. I know im rooting for Melo to have a big game tonight but for the Nuggets to win big so we can ship Dantonis ass to the D-league. And yes i got tickets tonight too, if only I could sneak in a megafone. Fire Dantoni.

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Bunch of Phil Jacksons on this site. Everyone’s got an answer, but it seems like few are willing to say, “Our two max contract guys shouldn’t have received those contracts/trades.”

      Anyone watch the T-Wolves game late? People who say Love can’t play D didn’t see Blake Griffin crying to the refs after every body contact and tough possession. I would kill to trade Love for Amar’e, and at the same price, even.

      Melo and Amar’e for Rubio and Love… please?

    16. hoolahoop

      danvt:
      And, let’s not blame PG play, or Melo, or coach D.Everyone in this organization needs to be accountable.That’s how you become the Yankees or the NY Giants, or the Patriots.People lose their jobs when they don’t do them right.Every single player, coach and executive needs to be worried about their job right now.

      That’s correct. If Mark Cuban took over the knicks, they’d be a true contender within a couple of years. It starts at the top. J. Dolan is the wrong owner.
      How do you trade your owner?

    17. Gideon Zaga

      ACTUALLY THE ONLY PERSON THAT SUCKS IS THE COACH!

      hoolahoop: The problem is the point guards. I love Melo. Why can’t this team find a D League PG that can do better than the crap we got. I love Melo. That’s why there’s no ball movement. I love Melo. Our guards suck.

    18. Gideon Zaga

      Right cos the wolves are winning 60 games this season, end up with the number 1 seed and only to lose to Miami in 7 games. Good job little Cock. You are so honorable.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Bunch of Phil Jacksons on this site. Everyone’s got an answer, but it seems like few are willing to say, “Our two max contract guys shouldn’t have received those contracts/trades.”

      Anyone watch the T-Wolves game late? People who say Love can’t play D didn’t see Blake Griffin crying to the refs after every body contact and tough possession. I would kill to trade Love for Amar’e, and at the same price, even.

      Melo and Amar’e for Rubio and Love… please?

    19. Juany8

      Also why are people only attacking Melo? Amar’e is a far bigger black hole, he forgot how to shoot and jump, and plays some of the worst defense in the league. Notice how it’s always point guards and stretch 4′s that kill us? I’m sure Melo’s terrible defense is the reason Boris Diaw and Ryan Anderson destroyed us. I’m sure Melo’s responsible for getting back in transition to stop guys like Rondo and Jennings when they leak out over and over again.

      Carmelo isn’t Lebron, Chris Paul, or Dwyane Wade. Those are realistically the only 3 individual players who would make this team better if traded straight up for Carmelo. The only reason the Knicks even have a player of Carmelo’s caliber is because he decided to try to force his way to the Knicks. Lebron didn’t want to come, Carmelo did, and the role players they gave up for Carmelo would only ever be useful on a team with players of Carmelo’s caliber. Management smartly decided that they could find another Felton (who was a bargain bin, stop gap pick up) or another Wilson Chandler a lot easier than they could find another Melo. The problem is they still have to go find those role players. Star studded, top heavy rosters don’t work when you don’t have reliable 3 point shooters and defenders at the other positions.

    20. hoolahoop

      Juany8: Also why are people only attacking Melo? Amar’e is a far bigger black hole, he forgot how to shoot and jump, and plays some of the worst defense in the league. Notice how it’s always point guards and stretch 4?s that kill us? I’m sure Melo’s terrible defense is the reason Boris Diaw and Ryan Anderson destroyed us. I’m sure Melo’s responsible for getting back in transition to stop guys like Rondo and Jennings when they leak out over and over again.

      Carmelo isn’t Lebron, Chris Paul, or Dwyane Wade. Those are realistically the only 3 individual players who would make this team better if traded straight up for Carmelo. The only reason the Knicks even have a player of Carmelo’s caliber is because he decided to try to force his way to the Knicks. Lebron didn’t want to come, Carmelo did, and the role players they gave up for Carmelo would only ever be useful on a team with players of Carmelo’s caliber. Management smartly decided that they could find another Felton (who was a bargain bin, stop gap pick up) or another Wilson Chandler a lot easier than they could find another Melo. The problem is they still have to go find those role players. Star studded, top heavy rosters don’t work when you don’t have reliable 3 point shooters and defenders at the other positions.

      Let me sum up what you said.
      “I love Melo”

    21. xduckshoex

      Juany8:
      Also why are people only attacking Melo? Amar’e is a far bigger black hole, he forgot how to shoot and jump, and plays some of the worst defense in the league. Notice how it’s always point guards and stretch 4?s that kill us? I’m sure Melo’s terrible defense is the reason Boris Diaw and Ryan Anderson destroyed us. I’m sure Melo’s responsible for getting back in transition to stop guys like Rondo and Jennings when they leak out over and over again.

      Carmelo isn’t Lebron, Chris Paul, or Dwyane Wade. Those are realistically the only 3 individual players who would make this team better if traded straight up for Carmelo. The only reason the Knicks even have a player of Carmelo’s caliber is because he decided to try to force his way to the Knicks. Lebron didn’t want to come, Carmelo did, and the role players they gave up for Carmelo would only ever be useful on a team with players of Carmelo’s caliber. Management smartly decided that they could find another Felton (who was a bargain bin, stop gap pick up) or another Wilson Chandler a lot easier than they could find another Melo. The problem is they still have to go find those role players. Star studded, top heavy rosters don’t work when you don’t have reliable 3 point shooters and defenders at the other positions.

      It seems like people are only attacking Melo because people are going to such lengths to absolve him of any blame. If the people who are so desperately trying to deflect all criticism from Melo through use of logical fallacies and misguided sarcasm would accept that despite his considerable talents he is a very flawed player and some of those flaws are hurting this Knicks team he wouldn’t be discussed as much.

      But that’s not happening. So as long as people try to pretend that everything is just peachy with Melo’s play there will be people here setting the record straight.

    22. Juany8

      Well then hoolahoop let me sum up all your posts.
      “I hate Melo”

      Are we seriously going to have a discussion like this? Carmelo is the best player on this team, it’s clear he and Chandler (maybe Shump) are the only valuable pieces this team has. Amar’e for Love would actually be an incredible trade for the Knicks, Love fits better because of his ability to space the floor and he’ll try harder on defense and rebounding in general, even if his rebounds will probably go down playing next to Chandler (and that’s assuming Amar’e finds his jumper). Amar’e would be a lot better off playing with Rubio and being the “man” of the team. Regardless, as long as the team’s guards remain the same I still believe that only Lebron James would be capable of fixing this team by himself. I don’t think the even Washington Wizards would take a look at Landry and Douglas.

    23. Gideon Zaga

      I’m sorry but what success is that?? The Western Conference Finals?? Come on both of em have been there. Did I miss something?

      xduckshoex: The coach has had much more success than Melo.Just sayin’.

    24. Juany8

      Melo is nowhere near perfect, he’s at best a borderline top 10 player overall, although he’s as good a primary scorer as any in the league. Being a flawed player, often selfish and ball hogging, didn’t stop Kobe from winning a bunch of championships. Being a weak defensive big man who posts up and holds the ball a lot didn’t stop Dirk from winning his championship. Besides we have a max player on our team shooting terribly, playing god awful defense, and never, ever passing and it isn’t Melo. Amar’e has been godawful, why are the people in favor of more passing, ball movement, and defense not going after him more? It’s pretty ridiculous to blame Melo for the other crappy players on his team, and it begins with the other supposed star on the team

    25. xduckshoex

      Gideon Zaga:
      I’m sorry but what success is that??The Western Conference Finals??Come on both of em have been there.Did I miss something?

      If you really want to go down that road, check how many times Melo has played on a team that made it out of the first round, then check how many times a D’Antoni coached team has made it out of the first round.

    26. hoolahoop

      Juany8:
      Well then hoolahoop let me sum up all your posts.
      “I hate Melo”

      Are we seriously going to have a discussion like this? Carmelo is the best player on this team, it’s clear he and Chandler (maybe Shump) are the only valuable pieces this team has. Amar’e for Love would actually be an incredible trade for the Knicks, Love fits better because of his ability to space the floor and he’ll try harder on defense and rebounding in general, even if his rebounds will probably go down playing next to Chandler (and that’s assuming Amar’e finds his jumper). Amar’e would be a lot better off playing with Rubio and being the “man” of the team. Regardless, as long as the team’s guards remain the same I still believe that only Lebron James would be capable of fixing this team by himself. I don’t think the even Washington Wizards would take a look at Landry and Douglas.

      Maybe that would be a good trade, except we’d still have Melo. As long as he continues to be a ball demanding, ball stopping, chucker, the knicks are doomed.
      You’re right, I hate Melo’s game. On the other hand, when he plays a few consecutive sequences of finding the open man for easy buckets, I love his game. Then, he can shoot in the flow of the game, and the knicks would play with a rhythm.
      I also agree that Amare would flourish with Rubio.

    27. Gideon Zaga

      By the way this is to hoolalopp, son listen I dont hate the coach or the backcourt and love Melo. This is my stance and has been all along this all of last year and this year but cos i have been banned countless times, it makes it harder for my case. Now this is my case, I am happy with Melo not cos of his personality but his talent, and I really really really HATE our Coach. Last year the general notion was oh man this team is really good offensively, if we can only play some defense and now this year its oh man the team is kinda good defensively but we cant even hit the outside of the barn. Fact is you are ignoring the problem, the coach, this is a defense first town buddy. Thats our culture. Plus whats makes me mad is that he keeps dling the same thing despite the fact that its not working. The damn 3 isnt falling even as wide open as they are why cant we take 2 or drive, do something else please or Fire Him, yes Fire Him.

    28. xduckshoex

      Juany8:
      Melo is nowhere near perfect, he’s at best a borderline top 10 player overall, although he’s as good a primary scorer as any in the league. Being a flawed player, often selfish and ball hogging, didn’t stop Kobe from winning a bunch of championships. Being a weak defensive big man who posts up and holds the ball a lot didn’t stop Dirk from winning his championship. Besides we have a max player on our team shooting terribly, playing god awful defense, and never, ever passing and it isn’t Melo. Amar’e has been godawful, why are the people in favor of more passing, ball movement, and defense not going after him more? It’s pretty ridiculous to blame Melo for the other crappy players on his team, and it begins with the other supposed star on the team

      It’s not ridiculous to put some of the blame on Melo when it’s an established and inarguable fact that he uses isolation plays far too often and it has a bad impact on the teams effectiveness.

      I don’t know why it’s so hard to connect these dots for some people. Fields, Douglas, Amare and Walker were all effective in an offense that featured proper spacing and crisp movement of the ball. We’ve seen it work for stretches this season when the team actually does play together. They are currently struggling in an isolation-heavy offense.

      There are two possibilities: they just forgot how to put the ball in the basket(which would be almost completely unprecedented) or the style of play being forced on them doesn’t suit them(which we’ve seen many times in NBA history). If it’s the former, Melo might as well continue to bomb away. If it’s the latter, he deserves every bit of criticism that he gets. The latter is supported by the available facts and makes more sense.

    29. chrisk06811

      I played when i was a kid. My teammates wouldn’t pass me the ball because they thought I was going to shoot it and miss. They were right. We should do that to bill walker. and tddwtdd. and bibby.

    30. hoolahoop

      The reason I don’t criticize Amare is that I believe he’s more willing to sacrifice his numbers to play in the team concept and win. Also, he came here and lifted this team out of it’s decade long duldrum, and played well with a bunch of young, scrappy kids.
      Granted, he looks like shit this year, but I think he would look much better if the team moved the ball. He’s best being fed filling the lane.

    31. xduckshoex

      Part of the problem people have with Melo is the timing of his shots. You can take a contested 20 foot jumper any time you want to, the defense is practically begging you to take that shot because it’s the least efficient shot there is. That kind of shot is supposed to be a last resort, but Melo takes those with 15 left on the shot clock without even trying to work for a better look.

    32. Juany8

      I actually have zero problems with the way Carmelo plays offense in general, the only problem I have is that it should be done in more limited doses, especially early in games. He can iso and go off in the fourth quarter, but early on he’s better off taking shots in the flow of the offense and passing to his teammates. Unfortunately as long as his teammates continue to be terrible, he HAS to take over if he wants a chance to win individual games. No one else on this team can dribble. Any discussion about Carmelo holding the ball too much has to take into account that there is no one capable of creating a good look for him, and that he doesn’t exactly get left open on jumpers very often. If you don’t see the problem with a roster that has a small forward as its only competent dribbler and playmaker then I don’t know what to tell you.

    33. hoolahoop

      chrisk06811:
      I played when i was a kid.My teammates wouldn’t pass me the ball because they thought I was going to shoot it and miss.They were right.We should do that to bill walker.and tddwtdd.and bibby.

      I played my whole life. If you were on my team I’d get you the ball in spots where it was easy for you to score.
      Now, you’d be posting “when i was a kid.My teammates wouldn’t pass me the ball because they thought I was going to shoot it and miss.They were wrong.”

    34. hoolahoop

      Juany8:
      I actually have zero problems with the way Carmelo plays offense in general, the only problem I have is that it should be done in more limited doses, especially early in games. He can iso and go off in the fourth quarter, but early on he’s better off taking shots in the flow of the offense and passing to his teammates. Unfortunately as long as his teammates continue to be terrible, he HAS to take over if he wants a chance to win individual games. No one else on this team can dribble. Any discussion about Carmelo holding the ball too much has to take into account that there is no one capable of creating a good look for him, and that he doesn’t exactly get left open on jumpers very often. If you don’t see the problem with a roster that has a small forward as its only competent dribbler and playmaker then I don’t know what to tell you.

      That would be a great post if you were being sarcastic.

    35. daJudge

      From observing how stiff, slow and awkward Amare looks at times, I don’t think he would flourish with anyone right now. Athletically, he doesn’t look like the same player we saw the first half of last year. Maybe it’s just rust or added muscle mass. My biggest concern is the one raised in the prior post, maybe he is breaking down sooner than expected. Perhaps Amare is a post injury Larry Johnson type of player at this point. Maybe that’s why he was talking about playing the stretch early on. If that’s reality, it’s not so bad, but his now skills and abilities need to be blended with the team. Unbalanced forays into the paint might not work right now for Amare and it is detrimental to the team. 21 foot contested jumpers by Melo, no matter how bad the guards are, will never help this team either. Further, even assuming CJ is correct, that Amare and Melo are way overpaid for their talent/performance level, you still need to deal with the hand your dealt. That’s up to the coach, isn’t it?

    36. d-mar

      Our offense looks bad whether Melo is on the floor or not, to blame our dysfunctional offensive possessions on him alone is just ridiculous. Amare looks like someone stuffed kryptonite in his shorts, and the rest of the team can’t hit an open shot, except maybe Jorts.

    37. chrisk06811

      instead of talking about what we SHOULD change, we should talk about what we CAN change. Any trade of Amare isn’t going to bring back full value right now….the whole league is worried about him. Are we going to get full value for Melo? The only reason NJ would trade him for D Will is because D Will won’t sign, but they’d want Baron too. Who is to say D Will will sign with us long term?

      What we can change is the coach. i’m not saying guys like balkman and jordan are better, but by this point, most coaches would have given them a shot. Mike D seems unwilling to stray from his formula, and his formula isnt working. I’m not saying he’s a horrible coach, but it’s not working.

      Last year, we played his game..ran the floor, pick n roll w/ Amare. Even some D….Amare and Ill WIll blocking shots. Melo just doesn’t play that game. We don’t have a PG to play that game. Chandler doesn’t play that game. The system needs to be altered to fit the best players. We need to adapt

      my last point….when folks say we’d be better off without the melo deal, stop mentioning that we’d have wilson chandler. He would still be in China.

    38. Juany8

      If your only role on a team is to make shots and play D (Walker, Douglas, Fields) and you don’t make those shots and play bad D, on a good team you get benched. On our team you get a starting role. It’s a big part of the reason we’re terrible.
      Oh and if we’re going to be looking at past history, the Nuggets were number 1 in offensive efficiency before Carmelo left last year (and they were good virtually every year he was there) and actually got worse after the trade, their main improvement came on defense. You’re right this team isn’t built for players like Amar’e. It’s not because Anthony stops the ball, it’s because Amar’e and the role players have always had a point guard on the team and good shooters to help with spacing. Ball movements doesn’t mean anything if 2 out of your 5 players are offensive liabilities and no one is used to running an offense.

    39. Juany8

      Oh and I’m with the people who think we’ll never win with D’antoni, he doesn’t coach defense and has totally bizarre rotations. Plus we gave away Corey Brewer last year, a solid guard who would be perfect for this team, because D’Antoni thought he couldn’t use him. Half court offense and defense are when coaches can make the biggest differences on a team level, and our defensive schemes have always been… lacking at best. Our offense is built around players we don’t have. Plus he always looks totally miserable out there and I’d say he’s at least as responsible as Carmelo’s arrival for making our role players lose confidence with his yelling and play time issues.

    40. LamontWallace

      The problem with Amare is the fact that unlike last year he’s got Tyson Chandlers man in the paint which limits his opportunities to score off the pick and roll which is his bread and butter.

      Defenses are able to contain him easier than last year when he was playing center and had guys like Gallo, Shaune Williams and Derrick Brown who provided at least a little bit of spacing.

      Baron Davis wont be the answer by a long shot, but with his passing abilities and veteran leadership we will have a guy that will see the bigger picture, take control of the game, and freeze out Shump, Melo and Amare’s good natured attempts to “save the game”.

      With Baron in the starting line up we can move Shumpert to shooting guard to help minimize some of the rookie mistakes he is liable to make.

      Douglass (if he gets his shot back) , Landry, Jorts and Stoudemire can be a unit deployed when D’Antoni wants to play small ball down the stretch and punish teams.

      No he wont get us to the championship, that would be pure fantasy, but Baron Davis will provide us a little stability in the backcourt, when it comes to scoring, and assurance the ball will be in Shump, Melo and Stoudemire’s hands when they are in rhythm and in scoring position.

    41. ess-dog

      There are a lot of things wrong with this team, not just Melo:

      1. We play way too much stagnant ISO ball with Melo heaving contested outside shots way too often.

      2. Stat is being misused. He was at a great advantage as a center in D’Antoni’s system but as a pf in a halfcourt set he’s merely average. He whined about wanting a center and we gave in to him (note that Atlanta did not do the same for Horford’s similar request, who has amazing #s.)

      3. Our front office made some considerable mistakes, drafting Hill instead of a pg, giving up too much to Houston to get under the cap (Miami did the same by giving much less), giving Stat an uninsured max, Not turning Lee into better players, giving the Nuggets way too much in that trade, pulling the Billups for Tyson move that created a poor fit for D’Antoni’s offense (even though Tyson is a good player), and basically signing nobodies to flesh out the roster (Novak?? Really??)

      4. The coach is not holding players accountable when they make mistakes and not utilizing players properly. Of course, he has a flawed roster, but the coaching is really uninspired.

      5. Role players aren’t playing well. TD, Fields, Bibby, and Walker are all playing below their already average standards. You can only expect so much from rookies.

      6. The defense has been pretty good except defending the 3 point line.

      7. Turnovers are a problem all around as is the poor shooting.

      8. Is the front office even looking for bench/shooting guard/point guard help right now???

      Even though D’Antoni has been unimpressive, he’s not playing with the type of team he’s used to. It’s like if I told you one day to use a PC and drink green tea instead of using a Mac and drinking coffee like you have for 8 years, and then expecting results better than you’ve produced before at your job… I give him a bit of a pass so far but he probably won’t be back at the end of the year. Maybe we bring Larry Brown back next year?…

    42. Gideon Zaga

      TRANSLATION: Fire the Coach

      chrisk06811:
      instead of talking about what we SHOULD change, we should talk about what we CAN change.Any trade of Amare isn’t going to bring back full value right now….the whole league is worried about him.Are we going to get full value for Melo?The only reason NJ would trade him for D Will is because D Will won’t sign, but they’d want Baron too.Who is to say D Will will sign with us long term?

      What we can change is the coach.i’m not saying guys like balkman and jordan are better, but by this point, most coaches would have given them a shot.Mike D seems unwilling to stray from his formula, and his formula isnt working.I’m not saying he’s a horrible coach, but it’s not working.

      Last year, we played his game..ran the floor, pick n roll w/ Amare.Even some D….Amare and Ill WIll blocking shots.Melo just doesn’t play that game.We don’t have a PG to play that game.Chandler doesn’t play that game.The system needs to be altered to fit the best players.We need to adapt

      my last point….when folks say we’d be better off without the melo deal, stop mentioning that we’d have wilson chandler.He would still be in China.

    43. LamontWallace

      ess-dog:
      After the Larry Brown comment, I had said:“Wouldn’t that be a laugh riot?”

      I see Larry Brown and this team getting along along like Isreal and the Arab Union

    44. taggart4800

      Can we all put down the crazy pills!
      This isn’t great to watch at the moment, I grant you. However the Heat were equally worrying last year and then went to the Finals. I don’t for a second believe that we are a. In anyway as good as the Heat or b. going to the finals anytime soon, but can we all get a grip on reality pleeeeeaaaassssee!
      This team has all the components for complete and utter failure, but similarly it does possess the components for utter brilliance.
      Sorry, I am aware that sniffing glue has its side effects.

    45. Frank O.

      I think there was one moment that encapsulates this team problem.
      SHUMP received a pass on the elbow. He was open, but rather than heave a shot, he found Amare, in the paint, virtually alone. He whipped it to Amare. He was surprised. Still he caught the ball. But rather than punish the Bucks, he hesitated. Amare flipped a hopeless shot, almost expecting a block, that bounced off the rim.
      To me, SHUMP’s and Amare’s disconnect, Amare’s hesitation in the paint and his weak attempt so close to the basket showed how out of sync and lacking in confidence this team is.
      And more and more, it’s clear to me it’s not a guy thing; it’s a team thing. Fans tend to think of players in terms of stovepipes. We talk about ball movement, but we’re preoccupied by stovepipes.
      Amare isn’t doing this; Melo isn’t doing that. TD is terrible; Landry is flaccid. SHUMP is this or that, etc.
      But the problem is they aren’t confident as a team, and, as a result, they lack confidence individually.
      Melo is taking a lot of shots, mostly, because he’s the only guy on the team who can get his own shot. When Amare tries, he looks unsure and inept. Amare has never been a guy to get his own shot. SHUMP and Jorts are rookies. TD has never been a supremely confident guy, so he suffers more when the team is off. The only guy who is consistently good and himself is Chandler, but when he gets the ball in the paint, he is hesitating now. The bench guys are bench guys. Their confidence is fed by the team. If the team sucks, they’re not going to carry the load.
      The team has no focal point running it. The players hardly know each other, and don’t get to practice together much. All their experience is on the court, where they are out of sync and losing.
      The NBA has fostered this false idea since Jordan, that one man can win it all. It’s a lie. Basketball is a team sport. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Jabbar. Bird had McHale, among others. Patrick lacked a great second.

    46. Gideon Zaga

      MIKE D’antoni’s system?? Please. I don’t pay to watch DA, get me a real coach for Christ’s sake.

    47. Gideon Zaga

      @ Frank O.

      And whose job is it to give the players confidence, the coach! He pays no attention to detail, he is like a nerd trying to prove that his formula and only his formula is the best.

    48. Owen

      “Oh and if we’re going to be looking at past history, the Nuggets were number 1 in offensive efficiency before Carmelo left last year (and they were good virtually every year he was there) and actually got worse after the trade, their main improvement came on defense.”

      The Nuggets offensive efficiency was 110.1 before the trade and finished at 109.5 after the final 24 games. And that was without both Carmelo and Chauncey Billups, probably the most efficient point guard in the NBA over the last ten years not named Steve Nash. And that was also with them sitting Nene and Felton for the last game (and Lawson for most of it also.)

      All the guys who love Melo and hate advanced statistical analysis here have a puzzle to solve. How do you lose purportedly one of the best offensive players in the league (Melo) and Billups and perform at basically the same offensive level. Shouldn’t their offensive efficiency have plummeted rather than falling a mere 1 percent or so?

      I should go ask Nate Silver the same question I suppose….

      .

    49. Frank O.

      Gideon Zaga:
      @ Frank O.

      And whose job is it to give the players confidence, the coach! He pays no attention to detail, he is like a nerd trying to prove that his formula and only his formula is the best.

      I really disagree. The coach needs to be realistic, and also understanding. This team doesn’t have practices. He knows they are learning on the fly. He says the guys are doing all the right things, ie, they care, they work hard, are sticking together. It takes time.
      I think if you expect a coach to turn around a brand new team, half the roster is new, two rotation players are rookies, and no true point guard, the center of any offense, in just 15 games, you’re unreasonable.
      Or you don’t understand the game, or most likely just damn frustrated, lashing out and looking for a scapegoat.
      Every time D’Antoni was handed a new team in his years with the Knicks he has adapted his offense, and that team showed improvement in time. The Z-Bo/Crawford/Lee team showed improvement, and were winning before they broke up. The Gallo/Felton/Mosgov/Stat team showed great improvement.
      In each case, D’Antoni adapted. “D’Antoni runs a guard dominated offense. Then he made Lee a point forward. D’Antoni wants lots of ball movement and SSOL. Then he’s feeding Amare ISO plays, and Melo. D’Antoni won’t emphasize defense, then he accepts a defensive coach and preseason focused on defense, which is what this team does best.
      He’s adaptive. He’s creative, and he understands players.
      If anything, I think what he has shown us is that his qualities run far deeper than anyone suspected when he came here. He’s a far better coach than I thought he was.
      Blaming this on him is wrong-headed.

    50. Gideon Zaga

      I think it’s Coaching, heck at this point its all coaching but. Georgia Karl is a better coach than Dantoni. At least he knows what he has and doesn’t try to make point guards out of small forwards or stretch 4′s out of power forwards.

    51. LamontWallace

      Every time D’Antoni was handed a new team in his years with the Knicks he has adapted his offense, and that team showed improvement in time. The Z-Bo/Crawford/Lee team showed improvement, and were winning before they broke up. The Gallo/Felton/Mosgov/Stat team showed great improvement.

      If anything, I think what he has shown us is that his qualities run far deeper than anyone suspected when he came here. He’s a far better coach than I thought he was.

      Just give him time and we will have a team.

      I don’t think any other coach has dealt with more adversity.

      Some teams have injuries, we have the most fickle front office in all of professional sports.

    52. Frank O.

      @Owen, Mike and any other stat dudes:
      I wanted your thoughts on this line of thinking:
      Advanced statistical analysis was what drew me to this site four years or more ago.
      But I think statistical analysis has met a short term setback. This season, truncated as it is, without a summer league, without a preseason and with a packed schedule, is going to distort whatever data has been collected to date on these players from past seasons. Meaning their relevance in the short term is limited.
      For statistical analysis to have any real meaning, the circumstances, the environment in which they are collected, needs to be consistent.
      Certain forces begin to distort the value of stats as an analytical tool. This may change as we get more games under our belts. But, imho, historical statistics have little true application to this season. Too many distortions.
      So it would seem to me that an imprecise science is made more imprecise. I think as the body of evidence grows this season, we’ll have more clarity about what this team is. Certainly, past performance gives us a sense of what guys will do. Melo is a volume scorer, not a high eFG% or TS% guy. Amare typically is a good eFG %, TS% guy. Chandler is a very efficient player, whose increased usage would probably greatly effect his efficiency.
      But the rest?
      TD is playing a new position and he’s now played on several teams in three years. Are his past stats reliable indicators of what he should be now? Who is he really? SHUMP and Jorts have no pro experience. Do college stats have any meaning in the pros? Who are they? Landry Fields has played for three teams in two years of pro ball, all with this one team. Who is this guy statistically? I don’t think anyone knows.
      It’s a perfect storm of uncertainty.
      Am I missing something?

    53. BahoPuwet

      FIRE Mike D I’m Phoney.
      Bring back Raymond Felton or get Deron Williams.
      Pat Riley is willing to trade The Prince of Akron for Jarred Jeffries straight up.

    54. Juany8

      I’d say the actual statistics for role players will largely be dependent on the role they play as much as their actual talent. Fit plays a large part in determining how valuable someone will be to your team, and a big problem this season is that a lot of teams (we’re not the only team with serious problems) have had trouble fitting in all their new players, even if they’re managing to win games in the process. Douglas is a good example, in that his shooting and passing stats as a bench player who mostly shot open jumpers are not indicative of his stats on the ball as a point guard dribbling the ball. It’s possible to go deeper, analyze a game possession by possession and try to come up with a player’s efficiency in the pick and roll, for instance, but even then that doesn’t quite capture how well a player can fill their role without proper context.

    55. Owen

      I obviously can’t speak for all the stat types here, but will anyway for the discussion’s sake…

      I don’t think any of the real wonks on the board are jumping to any new conclusions based on what we have seen so far. Statistics won’t really let you make reliable judgments based on such a small sample size. And even a whole season isn’t that big of a sample.

      None of us think Melo is a fundamentally worse player than he was last year. We all have the same questions about what his style of play is worth though.

      Regarding the young players, no, I don’t think many of us think Toney Douglas and Landry Fields are going to finish the season with a TS% below 50%. That said, I don’t think you can draw strong conclusions about how good either of them are yet. Generally you need to see how rookies perform in the NBA for anywhere up to three years depending on their age and physical maturity before making anything close to a definitive judgment. Often you know a lot sooner of course. But even a guy like Lebron for instance struggled a fair bit his first year in the league, at least relative to his later performance.

      I do think history tells us things will turn around for a few of the guys who have been struggling. They can’t play this bad for much longer given their track records.

      I don’t know what it tells us about Amare though. He didn’t play well with Melo last year. He isn’t that young. And the injuries do seem to be catching up to him from what I observe. And even when he “carried” the team last year, he wasn’t nearly as productive in all facets as he has been in the past.

    56. Juany8

      Part of the problem is that statistics aren’t capable of telling you why something happened. A statistic rates a heave from half court with a half second left in the quarter the same as a wide open corner 3. That’s why statistics have to be placed in their proper context, for there is nothing inherently revealing about per game averages or shooting percentages. Those numbers have to be analyzed properly, and that means watching a lot of tape and trying to really observe and understand what’s going on.

      There is also nothing in statistics that states that what happened in the past will continue in the future. That’s an assumption someone might make when making predictions, but it doesn’t excuse a prediction for being wrong. An injury report and schedule can be as crucial in making future predictions as any past results a player has achieved, especially if looking at production and not skills and fit.

    57. Owen

      “There is also nothing in statistics that states that what happened in the past will continue in the future.”

      Really? Could have fooled me. Because when I look at basketball statistics I see striking similarities year over year in player performance, when adjusted for age, pace, minutes, and injuries.

      Most players put up very similar numbers year over year when you take the above factors into account, especially the most established players.

    58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Part of the problem is that statistics aren’t capable of telling you why something happened. A statistic rates a heave from half court with a half second left in the quarter the same as a wide open corner 3. That’s why statistics have to be placed in their proper context, for there is nothing inherently revealing about per game averages or shooting percentages. Those numbers have to be analyzed properly, and that means watching a lot of tape and trying to really observe and understand what’s going on.

      There is also nothing in statistics that states that what happened in the past will continue in the future. That’s an assumption someone might make when making predictions, but it doesn’t excuse a prediction for being wrong. An injury report and schedule can be as crucial in making future predictions as any past results a player has achieved, especially if looking at production and not skills and fit.

      Wrong. You’re implying that last second heaves can make a sizable dent on a team’s purported efficiency.

      Here’s the Knicks’ numbers on 3PA last season: 2081.

      If they were to take a last-second heave from 80 feet out at the end of EVERY quarter, they’d still only be adding 328 to that total. And that’s every single quarter. They would reduce their efficiency from 36% to 31%. That’s a not insignificant gap, but this is an extreme hypothetical, and it would never happen.

      Yes, stats are limited. But over the course of a season, there will be a natural breakdown of opportunities across teams. What I mean is that most teams will spend (I’m making these numbers up) 2-3% of their 3PA opportunities on last second heaves, 20% on wide open shots, etc. Better teams will have a better distribution of wide open/contested/last second shots, and likely better efficiency.

    59. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      tl;dr

      The “outlier” plays are so few and far between that they don’t matter. We don’t care about the difference between a 36.5 and 37.0 3P%. We do care about the difference between a 55 and 60 TS%, as it means that the latter is significantly more efficient, no matter how those shots come about.

      Basketball is an extremely uniform game. Defenses are almost exactly the same across the league; the personnel that undertake that defense are vastly different, and account for the differences.

      Offenses vary much more (I can’t imagine a bigger gap than that between the Triangle and 7SOL). Still, the game is fundamentally the same. Shoot efficiently, grab and prevent rebounds, force and prevent turnovers, and take and make a lot of free throws.

      Over a season of thousands of possessions, we can’t discredit the numbers because the Knicks might have a dozen more buzzer-beater 3PA than the Heat. Those events make no significant effect upon the percentages.

      Contextualizing is fine, but let’s not believe for a second that the 30 NBA teams are playing anything but the SAME GAME every night.

    60. bobneptune

      chrisk06811:

      my last point….when folks say we’d be better off without the melo deal, stop mentioning that we’d have wilson chandler.He would still be in China.

      total false dichotomy, chris. you are assuming there were no other alternatives.

      for example, had jimmy d not interfered and melo wasn’t so greedy and there had been no trade, chandler (he was a restricted fa this year, still under the knick’s control for a qualifying offer) and his 16.4 ppg 6 boards pg and 1.4 blks pg would likely have been shipped off to a contender for a future #1 pick to clear more space (along with curry and azubukie’s expirings) to make a max fa slot for carmelo or whomever this year.

      or he might have been packaged in a lesser package for d-williams.

      you are correct he likely wouldn’t have been on the roster at this very moment, but he likely would have been shipped off at the deadline last year for an asset of significance.

    61. Z

      Frank O.: But I think statistical analysis has met a short term setback. This season, truncated as it is, without a summer league, without a preseason and with a packed schedule, is going to distort whatever data has been collected to date on these players from past seasons….It’s a perfect storm of uncertainty.

      I’m not “stat dude”, but it seems like there shouldn’t be complete uncertainty. All you have to do is look back to the last truncated season to see if statistics remained consistent. As far as eFG% goes, here is how the decade surrounding the last strike-shortened season looked:

      1994: League eFG% .485
      1995: .500
      1996: .499
      1997: .493
      1998: .478
      1999: .466*
      2000: .471
      2001: .474
      2002: .477
      2003: .474
      2004: .471

      So we can see that the 50 game sprint of 1999 yielded the lowest league eFG in its ten year span. (of course, there were hand-check rules implemented in 1994, and the 3pt line was moved in from 1994-1998 which effects eFG% as much as a short season would, but I think it is somewhat safe to expect that shooting efficiency around the league could dip this year, and then rise again next year).

    62. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And that’s such a small difference it could be attributed to any number of variables. We’re talking five thousandths of a point from ’99 to ’00.

    63. nicos

      On Amar’e- while he wasn’t quite this bad, he did get off to an awful start last season as well- as I recall his TS% was around .520 after 10-15 games and his turnover rate was actually worse than it is now as he repeatedly drove into double teams. And people were questioning his athleticism too- no lift, etc… Then Felton figured out the pnr and his TS% shot up to 59%. It started falling again when he hurt his foot and teams figured out that they could just let Felton shoot and cheated off him on the pnr. Melo’s arrival didn’t help either. He’s never going to be that 60-65% TS% guy again but I’d say it’s a little early to say he’s done. I’d agree that even if does get back to 57-58% he’s still not worth his contract but that’s another issue.

    64. danvt

      chrisk06811: I played when i was a kid. My teammates wouldn’t pass me the ball because they thought I was going to shoot it and miss. They were right. We should do that to bill walker. and tddwtdd. and bibby.

      No, they needed to believe in you, Money.

    65. Juany8

      Cock Jowles you are 100% right about that one isolated example. It was an admittedly extreme analogy to convey the vast amounts of different shots that are labeled a 3 point shot. Perhaps a better analogy would be a corner 3 versus a desperation 3 at the end of a shot clock, which happens far more frequently than a half court heave, especially on bad offensive teams. My point is that you can’t simply compare the 3 point fg% in trying to determine who is the better 3 point shooter. A more comprehensive analysis would be to compare the outcome of the 3 point shot compared to the expected outcome of the play at the time, sort of like DVOA from Football Outsiders. Nobody should be penalized for taking a shot saving 3, and players like Ray Allen who consistently get open for 3 through their own skill would be rewarded more than someone who only takes wide open 3′s when left open and shoots a similar or even higher percentage.

      Also, it is a simple fact of statistics that they do not predict the future from the past. That is a human choice. If you choose to simply predict that players will continue playing the same based on their statistics, that is your analysis and therefore opinion. It’s just extra information that can help you try to predict the future, but it is not the only tool available, and statistics do not automatically make predictions or conclusions objective or even scientific. There is no formula for player value, at least not one based on linear correlation of a few box score variables.

    66. Owen

      “Also, it is a simple fact of statistics that they do not predict the future from the past. That is a human choice. If you choose to simply predict that players will continue playing the same based on their statistics, that is your analysis and therefore opinion.”

      JuaNY8 – This makes no sense. Seriously, come down from that airy pseudo-philosophical perch you are on. What kind of simpletons do you think we Knickerblogger readers are?

      The implication of your above statement is that nothing that has ever happened in the past and that can be measured (i.e. through statistics) is a reliable guide to the future.

      Which is ridiculous. I would love to play craps with you.

      As I said in my previous post, past basketball performance is HIGHLY correlated to future performance once you account for age, pace, minutes, and injuries. Far more highly correlated anyway than in sports like football, soccer, and baseball.

      If you don’t know that, you don’t know much. Seriously, can you imagine telling Sam Presti, “You know Russell Westbrook has played really really well, but anything could happen in the future. Anything at all. Don’t give him a contract.”

    67. Z

      As far as obligatory “must win games” go, tonight’s is as close to “must win” for the Knicks as a regular season game can get, no?

    68. Z

      Or at least not lose by 16 as Gallinari holds Carmelo to another 11-26 game…

      (Maybe the bar isn’t actually winning– just not getting totally and completely embarrassed!)

    69. EwOakStarksMase

      I can’t believe Melo said this!!

      “You can’t compare our team to Denver’s team,” Anthony said. “They got five starters from that trade. Denver’s a hell of a team. They’re one of the deeper teams in the NBA right now. We just want to go out and win (Saturday). It’s not about Denver. It’s much more about us.”

      Gee Melo, who’s freaking fault was that??

      Simply amazes me that in his mind apparently, our lack of depth has nothing to do with him. Someone needs to hold up a mirror right in front of his face and say, “now Melo, recall last year?? The year your could have waited until free agency and then joined us and we would be stacked and deep?? Remember?? Huh?? Then smash the freaking mirror over the dumbass’s head and hope he wakes the f up !!

    70. d-mar

      Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
      Yep. Man, they need to win this game so bad. Just to quiet some of the folks in the media. Losing their sixth in a row while at home against Melo’s ex-team? They so need this game.

      I think the boo birds may come out at 2-0 Denver LOL

    71. daJudge

      For me it is Z. Juany8, choice does not negate statistical probability. I agree with Owen, but players can choose to try and play differently and, instead of repeating mistakes, learn and change. Possible, but not probable. It happens sometimes. Did anyone ever see that 1973 movie, “Earl, Clyde and Red”?

    72. Owen

      “They so need this game.”

      Which is I am so excited to be leaving my mother’s basement and going to an actual game. Awesome when a friend pops up out of nowhere with an extra ticket….

    73. d-mar

      Owen:
      “They so need this game.”

      Which is I am so excited to be leaving my mother’s basement and going to an actual game. Awesome when a friend pops up out of nowhere with an extra ticket….

      Hey Owen, I’m curious if the security is as tight tonight as it was last night. They were doing full body wand scans for every customer, never seen that before at MSG.

    74. EwOakStarksMase

      To everyone out there who is fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be attending tonight’s game at the Garden. I beg, plead, and ask nicely, that you represent all of us REAL Knick fans out there. If the Knicks dare to show up tonight and shoot like crap, show no hustle, and lack passion like they did against the Bucks, then it is time to let them have it with a verbal barrage of chants and heckles!! Some say “real fans don’t boo their team ever.” I use to feel that way as well. I have been a die hard Knick fan for 35 years and I have seen some horrific teams. But I honestly cannot recall one with this much potential, yet they display a total lack of pride and focus. I blame Dantoni 80%, players 20%. Please let them know, that this lack of pride and effort is NOT ACCEPTABLE TO US FANS!! No way, no how!!

    75. Frank O.

      Z: I’m not “stat dude”, but it seems like there shouldn’t be complete uncertainty. All you have to do is look back to the last truncated season to see if statistics remained consistent. As far as eFG% goes, here is how the decade surrounding the last strike-shortened season looked:

      1994: League eFG% .485
      1995: .500
      1996: .499
      1997: .493
      1998: .478
      1999: .466*
      2000: .471
      2001: .474
      2002: .477
      2003: .474
      2004: .471

      So we can see that the 50 game sprint of 1999 yielded the lowest league eFG in its ten year span. (of course, there were hand-check rules implemented in 1994, and the 3pt line was moved in from 1994-1998 which effects eFG% as much as a short season would, but I think it is somewhat safe to expect that shooting efficiency around the league could dip this year, and then rise again next year).

      Did they have summer league and preseason games?
      That also affects outcomes, I believe.
      Owen is dead on about past performance being predictive. I wouldn’t want someone who thinks otherwise hiring and firing because they might let past excellent performers pass for someone that simply is good looking

    76. chrisk06811

      danvt: No, they needed to believe in you, Money.

      Dan…..thanks for the kind words. You’re so desperate to see someone hit a J you’re putting some faith in me!!!

      Of course, the way Melo’s been hoisting it up every time he touches it, you’d think his dad was the coach. that logic may make sense….maybe bill walker’s dad is someone’s ride home??

    77. hoolahoop

      EwOakStarksMase:
      I can’t believe Melo said this!!

      “You can’t compare our team to Denver’s team,” Anthony said. “They got five starters from that trade. Denver’s a hell of a team. They’re one of the deeper teams in the NBA right now. We just want to go out and win (Saturday). It’s not about Denver. It’s much more about us.”

      Gee Melo, who’s freaking fault was that??

      Simply amazes me that in his mind apparently, our lack of depth has nothing to do with him. Someone needs to hold up a mirror right in front of his face and say, “now Melo, recall last year?? The year your could have waited until free agency and then joined us and we would be stacked and deep?? Remember?? Huh?? Then smash the freaking mirror over the dumbass’s head and hope he wakes the f up !!

      Amen, brother.

    78. daJudge

      I hope Owen gets to see an awesome game. I get the feeling he played some hoop. I think we play different tonight. There have been some signs. I wish I were at the Garden tonight. Don’t you.

    79. Juany8

      Do you actually know statistics? That’s an honest question not any kind of personal insult. Correlation does not imply causation, and there is more than one way to predict future from statistics than a simple linear correlation. The point about Sam Presti is ridiculous, I’m sure watching any amount of tape of Westbrook would reveal that he’s an amazing player any gm would love to keep. Statistics are just extra information that can be used to form an opinion, they are no better than seriously studying tape and performance, and in any case the person using the statistic has to make a judgement call about what’s likely to continue being the same and what’s likely to decline or improve.

      Also by definition, a stat has no ability to explain why something happen, so if a statistic is not properly contextualized, it is not really indistinguishable from randomly generated numbers, or any more meaningful. You have to understand a player’s production, not just know that it happened.

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