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Wednesday, October 22, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jan 07 2012)

  • [New York Times] Nine Major Sporting Events Over Two Weeks Keeps New Orleans Busy (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:20:10 GMT)
    From Dec. 26 through Monday, the Superdome and the neighboring New Orleans Arena have hosted, or will host, nine sporting events.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 99, Wizards 96: Knicks Avoid Upset by Winless Wizards (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:00:28 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony had 37 points, including the 3-pointer that gave the Knicks, who blew an 8-point lead down the stretch, the lead for good against Washington with 15.5 seconds left.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Nets Beat Raptors and End Slump (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:03:24 GMT)
    The Nets made a season-high 15 3-pointers in a 97-85 victory over the Raptors in Toronto, ending a six-game losing streak and winning for the first time since their opener Dec. 26.

  • [New York Times] Streaking Bulls Pile on Late Points to Beat Magic (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:35:50 GMT)
    The Chicago Bulls extended their winning streak to six games with a late run to pull away from the Orlando Magic 97-83 at the Amway Center on Friday.

  • [New York Times] Kobe Scores 39 as Weary Lakers Hold Off Warriors (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:17:56 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant scored 26 of his 39 points in a dynamic second half, Pau Gasol added 17 points and 11 rebounds, and the weary Los Angeles Lakers gritted out a 97-90 victory over the Golden State Warriors on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Nash, Suns Roll Over Trail Blazers 102-77 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:23:56 GMT)
    Steve Nash made all seven shots, two of them 3-pointers, and handed out nine assists, then sat out the fourth quarter to watch his Phoenix Suns complete a 102-77 rout of the Portland Trail Blazers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Jefferson, Jazz Bench Key 94-85 Win Over Grizzlies (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:35:55 GMT)
    Al Jefferson had 20 points and nine rebounds and the Utah Jazz reserves outscored their Memphis Grizzlies counterparts by 30 points on the way to a 94-85 victory Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Streaking Bulls Pile on Late Points to Beat Magic (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:38:51 GMT)
    The Chicago Bulls extended their winning streak to six games with a late run to pull away from the Orlando Magic 97-83 at the Amway Center on Friday.

  • [New York Times] Late Spurt Lifts Rose and Bulls Over Magic, 97-83 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:38:57 GMT)
    At times last season the Chicago Bulls were guilty of leaning on MVP point guard Derrick Rose too much to help them pull out wins in close games.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Use Big Second-Half Run to Beat Hornets (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:48:46 GMT)
    Danilo Gallinari scored 23 points and the Denver Nuggets went on a 19-0 run spanning the end of the third quarter and the start of the fourth, beating the New Orleans Hornets 96-88 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Jamison, Irving Lead Cavs Over Timberwolves 98-87 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:36:04 GMT)
    Antawn Jamison had 22 points and six rebounds to help the Cleveland Cavaliers to a 98-87 victory over the Minnesota Timberwolves on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Thunder Beat Rockets 109-94 to Open Busy Stretch (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:31:25 GMT)
    Kevin Durant scored 26 points, top reserve James Harden added 23 and the Oklahoma City Thunder eased into their only stretch of three games on consecutive nights by beating the Houston Rockets 109-94 on Friday.

  • [New York Times] Granger Leads Pacers Past Boston’s Big 3, 87-74 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:21:08 GMT)
    Danny Granger had 15 points and Roy Hibbert scored 11 with 12 rebounds Friday night to lead the Indiana Pacers to an 87-74 victory over the Boston Celtics.

  • [New York Times] Smith Lifts Hawks Past Bobcats, 102-96 in OT (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:54:06 GMT)
    The Atlanta Hawks went to overtime for a second straight night, pulling out a 102-96 victory over the Charlotte Bobcats on Friday behind 23 points and 13 rebounds from Josh Smith.

  • [New York Times] Nets Use 3-Point Barrage to Beat Raptors 97-85 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:50:58 GMT)
    Deron Williams had 24 points and nine assists, Anthony Morrow also scored 24 and the New Jersey Nets snapped a six-game losing streak by beating the Toronto Raptors 97-85 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: How the Spurs Can Survive Without Ginobili (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:40:22 GMT)
    Ginobili’s injury will hurt the Spurs, but Coach Gregg Popovich is always resourceful — and T.J. Ford will be an important component of his strategy.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Finley Helps Yi, Prepping Own Comeback? (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:27:53 GMT)
    Michael Finley is contemplating a comeback to the N.B.A. while working with the Legends of the developmental league.

  • [New York Times] Anthony’s 3 Helps Knicks Keep Wizards Winless (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:00:12 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony made a go-ahead 3-pointer with 15.5 seconds to play and scored 37 points, and the New York Knicks rallied for a 99-96 victory on Friday night that kept the Washington Wizards winless.

  • [New York Times] Hawes Leads 76ers Past Pistons, 96-73 (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:47:58 GMT)
    Spencer Hawes had 16 points and 14 rebounds, Jodie Meeks scored 21 points, and the Philadelphia 76ers beat the Detroit Pistons 96-73 on Friday night.

  • [New York Daily News] Anthony’s three lifts Knicks above Wizards (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:53:09 GMT)
    Maybe the only team the Knicks could have beaten last night were the Washington Wizards, who at this rate just might go 0-66. But while the Knicks struggle at both ends of the court they may have found a new PG.

  • [New York Daily News] Shump change paysALL immediate dividends for Knicks (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:41:39 GMT)
    Iman Shumpert is slowly earning his way into the Knicks’ starting lineup and a promotion could happen sooner than later. Shumpert replaced Toney Douglas at point guard in the third quarter and played a significant role in the Knicks’ 99-96 victory over the Wizards.

  • [New York Daily News] D’Antoni : Our slow start nothing like Heat’s tipoff (Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:29:34 GMT)
    The Knicks’ sluggish start has drawn comparisons to what the Miami Heat went through last season, but Mike D’Antoni isn’t buying it. “Yeah, we’re just like them,” D’Antoni said sarcastically.

  • 158 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jan 07 2012)

    1. llcoolbp

      I live down in new Orleans, and it is crazy down hear this weekend. With the bowl game and the saints game, these people are pumped. They even seem pretty optimistic about the hornets. It’s funny though, I care more about the knick game tonight, on my crappy broadband feed. Though I would be psyched if the giants advance and came to the dome to play the saints in the near future.

    2. danvt

      Shump Shump!

      I just wrote this on the last thread and then saw that this one was up after I hit submit. Sorry for the re-post but I’d like people to read it:

      I get most of my best info on the K’s from deriving a consensus of opinion from the bloggers here. It’s the best basketball site by far.
      (which is why I appreciate the admonishment to keep the personal attacks to a minimum. We don’t want KB to turn into a vacuous espn.com comment area) So, after watching TD struggle initiating the offense, reading the almost universal bad reviews here, and then seeing comments from the likes of David Lee, etc. I had to revise my thesis that he’s a modern day Starks. Then, last night, coach D, tired of being behind cellar dwelling teams by ten points or more, benched him in the second half. KBers ahead of the curve.

      On Melo, I think this board is the only place you’ll hear anything negative about him. Everywhere else it’s “Melo paces the Knicks with 37…” Again, I like him because I associate him with tough Big East basketball, but, like most players, he has strengths and weaknesses. So, what we see on this board, from most of the esteemed regulars is thoughtful analysis, and not a lot of rose colored glasses. I’ve aligned myself with the more appreciative watchers. The three point play to put the Knicks up by 10 was the type of shot only a handful of NBA players could make. He had another like it later in the game as well. And the winning three pointer.

      For the Knicks to win, though, I think the ball needs to move more and he needs to score less. However, that means other guys need to step up, which, hopefully now happens with Shumpert running the offense. When Melo has that many points it’s kind of like a quarterback throwing for a lot of yards in the NFL. You see a lot of 300+ yard games from quarterbacks in losses. The running game stops working and QB’s have to compensate.

    3. tenebrous

      danvt: Yes, that’s what I said.I used the English language, though.

      U said u had to revise ur original thought. I believe that’s English enough.

    4. tenebrous

      When baron aka “smiley face” gets back who will b the shooting guard. The one on the corners waiting to shoot the three or pull up for the two? Fields? Skywalker? Balkman? Diantoni needs to put the responsibility on someone.

    5. KnickfaninNJ

      I want to make a comment about a post in the previous thread where someone wondered what it was like watching Ewing and King. I remember watching them. Ewing was very frustrating to watch. He would get the ball down low and would or not. The ball would not come out again. Fans were often very frustrated by this. Melo is much more fun to watch and moves the ball much more. And I say this not being a fan of the Melo trade because we gave up so much. King was more fun to watch on offense than either of them but I think that was due to his style scoring. And he wasn’t a natural passer either. . So while I wasn’t a fan of the trade, I still think Melo is playing well.

    6. d-mar

      For those who lament that Melo is a ball stopper and difficult to watch, are you a fan of watching Dirk back his man down for 15 seconds and then launching a fadeaway jumper? Is that “pretty basketball”? Or Derrick Rose going 1 on 5 to the hole? Or Kobe going between his legs 5 or 6 times before putting up a contested 20 footer? Like it or not, in close games it comes down to iso’s and clearouts with the best player on the team taking over. If that’s not your cup of tea, I guess you should get a League Pass for the Princeton Tigers.

    7. njasdjdh

      d-mar: If that’s not your cup of tea, I guess you should get a League Pass for the Princeton Tigers.

      Or whatever team Chris Paul plays on.

    8. danvt

      tenebrous: U said u had to revise ur original thought. I believe that’s English enough.

      Right, my original thought was that he was similar to Starks and then I revised it. So, my new thought was that he was not like Starks. Ergo, your comment was redundant. Also, if we’re commenting on the English language, correct spelling can be important and I’m not sure what you mean by, “English enough”. Is that what you speak?

      OK, I’m being a dick, now. Sorry. It’s just that when I spend twenty or so minutes crafting an opinion, I’d like to have it read carefully. Not that my writing or basketball knowledge is worthy of that necessarily.

    9. danvt

      d-mar: For those who lament that Melo is a ball stopper and difficult to watch, are you a fan of watching Dirk back his man down for 15 seconds and then launching a fadeaway jumper? Is that “pretty basketball”? Or Derrick Rose going 1 on 5 to the hole? Or Kobe going between his legs 5 or 6 times before putting up a contested 20 footer? Like it or not, in close games it comes down to iso’s and clearouts with the best player on the team taking over. If that’s not your cup of tea, I guess you should get a League Pass for the Princeton Tigers.

      Sometimes I wish there was a 40 second shot clock in the pro’s. I mean, if the defense plays well and blows up a play it really is up to the best player on the court to get a shot up and hope for the best. Usually, the results of all of those broken plays are a key to what team wins.

    10. tenebrous

      tastycakes:
      Wow, that’s funny.I forgot that my favorite Knick-who-never-played even existed.

      Yeah well spree kinda choked his coach and I couldn’t rude for the guy.

    11. tenebrous

      danvt: Right, my original thought was that he was similar to Starks and then I revised it.So, my new thought was that he was not like Starks.Ergo, your comment was redundant.Also, if we’re commenting on the English language, correct spelling can be important and I’m not sure what you mean by, “English enough”.Is that what you speak?

      OK, I’m being a dick, now.Sorry.It’s just that when I spend twenty or so minutes crafting an opinion, I’d like to have it read carefully.Not that my writing or basketball knowledge is worthy of that necessarily.

      For some of us English is not our native or even 2nd language. For some it is. Maybe it is for u. Sorry if I offended u danvt. Ur writing is good and I enjoyed reading it.

    12. tenebrous

      tenebrous: Yeah well spree kinda choked his coach and I couldn’t rude for the guy.

      Regardless we still need a few more players with a killer instinct.

    13. danvt

      tenebrous: For some of us English is not our native or even 2nd language. For some it is. Maybe it is for u. Sorry if I offended u danvt. Ur writing is good and I enjoyed reading it.

      Yes, Amen. I appreciate the comment. I really shouldn’t try to set myself up as some kind of linguist.

    14. jon abbey

      d-mar:
      For those who lament that Melo is a ball stopper and difficult to watch, are you a fan of watching Dirk back his man down for 15 seconds and then launching a fadeaway jumper? Is that “pretty basketball”? Or Derrick Rose going 1 on 5 to the hole? Or Kobe going between his legs 5 or 6 times before putting up a contested 20 footer? Like it or not, in close games it comes down to iso’s and clearouts with the best player on the team taking over. If that’s not your cup of tea, I guess you should get a League Pass for the Princeton Tigers.

      none of those guys hold the ball like Melo, maybe Dirk on occasion, but Melo has to lead the league by far in holding the ball on offense without attempting to do anything.

    15. tenebrous

      danvt: Yes, Amen.I appreciate the comment.I really shouldn’t try to set myself up as some kind of linguist.

      Y not. Ur probably r. Ur right. I should have lored on ur revised thought and not sament ur earlier one as the end all.

    16. cgreene

      jon abbey: none of those guys hold the ball like Melo, maybe Dirk on occasion, but Melo has to lead the league by far in holding the ball on offense without attempting to do anything.

      I don’t agree with that at all. Early in games and early in the clock Melo is moving the ball fine. He has been passing to two if the worst guards in the league. He’s had some beautiful feeds to Chandler and last night to Amare. He throws excellent skip passes as well. This line of reasoning is getting a bit tiring.

    17. tenebrous

      http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-saturday-jan-07-2012/#comment-353757

      I don’t know: saying stump should b a shooting guard is just plain weird. More or less weird than saying fields feelings would b hurt if shump is thrust to take on a shooting guard role. I thought the object was to shake things up? The Knicks won for their coach last night. But with comments like these dantoni doesn’t have us (the fans) in mind at all. Than y should we have him in mind as the (true) 6th man.

    18. Z-man

      Hope I don’t offend anyone by saying this, but I don’t like the Shump-Spree comparison. While I liked Spree’s energy and ferocity, he really wasn’t that great. He was a realtively poor shooter and rebounder, an average passer, and an erratic defender, really more of a streaky slasher than anything. His best year was the year we went to the finals in 1999, but for those who remember, he almost lost the Miami series for us when he nearly lost the ball out of bounds, leading to the inbound play for Allan’s iconic running jumper. Look at his overall stats, especially his defensive rating. He was a great “risk” pickup at a time when nobody wanted him and all, but he wasn’t as good as legend has it. Again, go to the stats.

      Shump should be a much better rebounder, passer, and defender than Spree. It remains to be seen whether he can slash and shoot from the perimeter as well, but I’m optimistic. He also has a much bigger body (probably 25-30 lbs) than Spree, yet Spree was more of a 2-3 while Shump is a 1-2.

      If Shump can play the point, he is a physical mismatch for just about every PG in the league on both ends. He also is a huge plus in PnR defense, as he’s big enough to temporarily defend bigs on a switch. The kid’s wingspan is very disruptive. He has a good handle, can finish with either hand, and good court vision. I’ve been trying to come up with a player he reminds me of without going off the deep end; One possibility is Terry Porter, another is Paul Pressey.

      If he develops a consistent perimeter game, I don’t think I’m exaggerating in saying that he can be scary good. The kis has a lot of tools!

    19. Z-man

      jon abbey: none of those guys hold the ball like Melo, maybe Dirk on occasion, but Melo has to lead the league by far in holding the ball on offense without attempting to do anything.

      Does the name Zach Randolph ring a bell?

    20. ess-dog

      jon abbey: none of those guys hold the ball like Melo, maybe Dirk on occasion, but Melo has to lead the league by far in holding the ball on offense without attempting to do anything.

      Dirk and Rose also play defense, but who cares about that? It’s only 50% of the game.

    21. d-mar

      ess-dog: Dirk and Rose also play defense, but who cares about that?It’s only 50% of the game.

      Yeah, you’re right, Dirk is known as a tremendous defensive player. I give up.

    22. Z-man

      If I recall, Dirk was getting lambasted at age 27 for the same stuff that Melo is now.

      Also, until the Knicks fix the guard situation and other guys start shooting the ball, you are going to see lots of Melo ISOs. Right now, he’s not the problem. If anything, he’s playing to career-high numbers, which is why we aren’t 0-6 right now. This team’s problems are with TD and Landry, and to a smaller degree with Amare and the extremely thin bench. Melo has been the only reliable thing about them.

    23. JK47

      @26

      Defensive rating is kind of a garbage stat; guards rarely fare well in defensive rating.

      Case in point: Gary Payton. Famously an amazing defensive player. Take a typical Gary Payton year, let’s say his age 26 season. His defensive rating that year was 107, but the team’s defensive rating was 106.3, so according to defensive rating, Payton was actually a slightly below average defender in the context of that Sonics team.

      Or look at Joe Dumars, also a great defensive guard. Age 26 season, Joe has a 107 defensive rating on a team with a 103.5 rating. He had the worst defensive rating on the entire team.

    24. cgreene

      To all of you saying Melo is a ball stopper in these first 7 games his ast rate is up from career 15 to 25. That’s enormous. Frankly, as of right now the Melo The Ball Stopper argument needs to go away.

    25. Frank

      RE: Shump’s defense – he looks like Tony Allen out there. I don’t want to put him in Tony’s class yet, but that’s how disruptive he’s looked in the few games he’s played so far. Quick enough to guard 1’s, torture on 2’s that don’t have a great handle, and big enough to guard 3’s.

      According to Synergy (and these are REALLY small samples) – he has been called the primary defender on twelve total iso, PNR ball handler, and PNR roll man possessions – and given up ZERO points on those 12 possessions. Overall when he is the primary defender, opponents are scoring 0.43 PPP against him and only score any points 17% of the time. TO-rate against him when he is the primary defender is 30.4%! I’m sure as teams start scouting him they will find some weaknesses, and these are REALLY small samples but he looks really promising. And that’s not even talking about his offense, where he brought the chaos meter from 10 down to about a 3 when he was running the point.

    26. Frank

      Sorry I have write this again to put the proper emphasis on it–

      % possessions against him that result in a score = 17%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 30.4%

      In these few games, teams are nearly twice as likely to turn the ball over than score when he is called the primary defender.

    27. cgreene

      @HPBasketball thinks we should trade Shump for Sessions. Anyone on board with that? Not me. He’s so much bigger and more athletic. That would seem to be his minimum potential.

    28. Z-man

      JK47: @26Defensive rating is kind of a garbage stat; guards rarely fare well in defensive rating.Case in point: Gary Payton. Famously an amazing defensive player. Take a typical Gary Payton year, let’s say his age 26 season. His defensive rating that year was 107, but the team’s defensive rating was 106.3, so according to defensive rating, Payton was actually a slightly below average defender in the context of that Sonics team.Or look at Joe Dumars, also a great defensive guard. Age 26 season, Joe has a 107 defensive rating on a team with a 103.5 rating. He had the worst defensive rating on the entire team.

      Fair enough, but Latrell was not in the defensive class with either of those two guys, imo.

    29. Z-man

      cgreene: @HPBasketball thinks we should trade Shump for Sessions. Anyone on board with that? Not me. He’s so much bigger and more athletic. That would seem to be his minimum potential.

      I would go postal if that ever happened!

    30. Z-man

      Let’s see what we have, he’s only finished one game and played parts of 2 others, and is still recovering from a knee injury with virtually no training camp. Landry was looking pretty good at this point and look at him now.

    31. Frank

      @37 – NO WAY

      If we really wanted to we could sign Sessions with the part or all of the MLE next year.

      More #smallsample nuggets:

      Shumpert:
      % possessions against him that result in a score = 17%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 30.4%
      PPP-against = 0.43 (23rd in the league)

      Fields:
      % possessions against him that result in a score = 40.5%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 10.8%
      PPP-against = 0.82 (109th in the league)

      Douglas:
      % possessions against him that result in a score = 48.8%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 10%
      PPP-against = 1.11 (244th in the league)

      Melo:
      % possessions against him that result in a score = 41.5%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 9.4%
      PPP-against = 0.81 (104th in the league)

      So…. Douglas’s TS is 41% and his usage rate is 22.7. He is the 244th-ranked defender in the league. And we’re still talking about Melo as a problem?

    32. cgreene

      Z-man:
      Let’s see what we have, he’s only finished one game and played parts of 2 others, and is still recovering from a knee injury with virtually no training camp.Landry was looking pretty good at this point and look at him now.

      That was the comparison that was being made on Twitter that Knicks fans were all gaga over Landry (which we were) and saying we needed to keep him over Gallo (which we weren’t… smart ones anyway) but Shump is a different case. Landry was performing on IQ, the system (as it turns out) and more athleticism than was previously thought. He was not highly touted. Shump is everything that Landry is not. He’s a massive athlete with incredible talent that needs to hone his IQ. Landry’s lack of athleticism is being exposed. Shump will never have that issue. It’s 2 things for Shump. Can he make good ball decisions? Can he hit a jumper consistently? There is no question that he is an NBA athlete.

    33. Frank

      Thing with TD is that his whole game seems to be dependent on his shooting. When his shot’s not going in, it’s like he has no idea what to do on the court. He’s a pretty good shooter so will eventually come around. I just hope his confidence isn’t in the toilet after getting so obviously outplayed by the rook on both sides of the ball. It’s getting to the point where teams are EXPLOITING his defense – Wall and Rondo in particular just went right at him on seemingly every possession. For a guy that has always prided himself on being a defensive guy, that probably has to hurt worse than anything.

      Here’s another ugly TD stat – per 82games, his PER is 8.2, and his PER-against is 21.5.

    34. tenebrous

      Watching the game again, I actually was not aware on how well shump does c the floor. He has some really good vision. Maybe a tenth of what baron has and I think baron sees the court before he gets there. So that’s saying a lot.

    35. Frank

      btw I can go on forever with stats supporting how horrible our backcourt is. I feel like the Melo of posting here. We literally have 4 out of the 28 worst guards (by PER) in the NBA playing major minutes (15+/game). There are 115 guards who have played 15+ min/game so far in this young season.

      Bibby is the WORST PG in the NBA by PER, TD is the 9th worst. They play a combined 49 min/game. Landry and Bill Walker are hovering around the PER of 10 line.

      All stats courtesy of hoopdata.

    36. ruruland

      Frank: @37 – NO WAYIf we really wanted to we could sign Sessions with the part or all of the MLE next year. More #smallsample nuggets:Shumpert:% possessions against him that result in a score = 17%% possessions against him that result in a TO = 30.4%PPP-against = 0.43 (23rd in the league)Fields:% possessions against him that result in a score = 40.5%% possessions against him that result in a TO = 10.8%PPP-against = 0.82 (109th in the league)Douglas:% possessions against him that result in a score = 48.8%% possessions against him that result in a TO = 10%PPP-against = 1.11 (244th in the league)Melo:% possessions against him that result in a score = 41.5%% possessions against him that result in a TO = 9.4%PPP-against = 0.81 (104th in the league)So…. Douglas’s TS is 41% and his usage rate is 22.7. He is the 244th-ranked defender in the league. And we’re still talking about Melo as a problem?

      This is excellent. Where did u find? Also, what does Amare’s numbers look like.

    37. jkk

      Have to say as an exiled NY’er now living in Colorado, this site is a godsend. Rarely is there an idiotic personal arguement/attack despite various opinions. Stuff like Frank posted above from Synergy is gold. Being a Knick fan who also has a job and a family living 2000 miles from NY makes it tough to follow as close as I would. Was really bummed when Newday put up their pay wall which destroyed Hahn’s Knicks Fix blog. Found this site and the mix between the statistical analysis and the opinions formed from direct observation make for great commentary and discussion. Thanks all.
      PS. any idea WTF happended to TD’s defense. The kid has the reputation as a hard nosed defender and now he just flat out sucks (at least so far this year). A matter of confidence low do to sucking on the offensive side?

    38. Frank

      ruruland: This is excellent. Where did u find? Also, what does Amare’s numbers look like.

      I got a subscription to mysynergysports.com for christmas – just scratching the surface so far but it is awesome (if a little user-unfriendly).

      Anyway, as requested:

      Amare:
      Douglas:
      % possessions against him that result in a score = 43.5%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 19.6%
      PPP-against = 0.93 (179th in the league)

      Some breakdowns of note – the eye test tells us that Amare is a disaster when involved on defense in the PNR – Synergy confirms this – he gives up 1.4 PPP when he’s the primary defender against the PNR roll man. All his other #s are surprisingly reasonable (0.75-0.81 PPP against iso, post-up, spot-up). For some reason they haven’t graded him on opponents cutting to the basket on him – he looks horrible to me against those plays.

      On offense – some other things of note. They are REALLY not involving him in the PNR as a roll man. only 3 possessions (2.8% of his possessions) used TOTAL the entire season so far as the roll man! His success on iso is TERRIBLE – 0.41 PPP, and he has used 27% of all his possessions in iso.

      In comparison – his last year in PHX with Nash running the point:
      – 17.8% of poss used were as PNR roll man, scoring 1.21 PPP (18th in league)
      – 14.8% of poss used in isolation, scoring 0.93 PPP (46th in league, not bad).

    39. Caleb

      @34 Melo’s career assist rate is 10.6 and this year it’s 12.0. Pretty good, not spectacular.

      I think Shumpert has a very high ceiling, given his athleticism, but it is way too early to compare him to all-star guys.

    40. nicos

      Frank:

      Amare:

      % possessions against him that result in a score = 43.5%
      % possessions against him that result in a TO = 19.6%
      PPP-against = 0.93 (179th in the league)

      Thanks for the numbers Frank! Amar’e’s a decent man defender but anything involving screens and rotations is a different story. I’m also shocked at the P & R numbers- I can understand it when Chandler’s in the game but Amare’s gotten a fair amount of minutes with Chandler on the bench. Why they aren’t at least trying the Melo/Amar’e P & R is a mystery to me. I think Amar’e has really suffered not just from the lack of P & R but the inability of any of the guards to get him the ball when he flashes into the post- he’s not a back to the basket guy but he’s always had success in the post when he gets it on the move.
      Also, has Shumpert run the P & R at all? He threw a couple of really nice interior passes last night and even if his mid-range game needs work, he’s quick enough to turn the corner and get to the rim if the defense doesn’t switch out on him. Those defensive numbers of his are fantastic- he’s causing more havoc without leaving his own man than I’ve seen from any Knick in years and that should get better as he plays against guys and gets to know their tendencies. Paul Pressy is a good comp, though I hope Shumpert turns out to be a better outside shooter and I think Shumpert’s athleticism gives him a higher ceiling. Now we just need BD to turn into Sidney Moncrief and we’ll have the best defensive backcourt in the league

    41. yoda4554

      Frank–Though I get and respect what you’re trying to do, this is exactly the situation where sample size renders a lot of this irrelevant (unless continuing trends from a larger sample). No, opposing small forwards have not lit up Melo in the first six games, but I think that has a lot less to do with Melo suddenly becoming a great defender after a career of bad defending than with the fact that the starting small forwards of the teams we’ve played have included the likes of Devin Ebanks, Sasha Pavlovic, and Rashard Lewis. (By contrast, Douglas has had to check Rondo and Wall.) Those numbers could change a lot after a couple games against, say, the Heat or the Hawks, who have much better SFs than PGs.

      @12–Dirk has ten years’ history of making that shot consistently; Melo has a long history of making it sometimes. And I hate it when either Rose or Kobe does the 1-on-5 thing; their teams would be much better if they didn’t.

    42. flossy

      Someone can be a ball-stopper and still have a high AST%. If you just hold onto the ball on half your team’s possessions and don’t let go until you have the chance to shoot or make a pass you think will lead to an assists, it will indeed lead to some assists.

      That’s not to say the team wouldn’t have been better off with just continuous ball and player movement instead.

    43. nicos

      flossy:
      Someone can be a ball-stopper and still have a high AST%.If you just hold onto the ball on half your team’s possessions and don’t let go until you have the chance to shoot or make a pass you think will lead to an assists, it will indeed lead to some assists.

      That’s not to say the team wouldn’t have been better off with just continuous ball and player movement instead.

      Well you also have to figure in that his usage rate right now is about double that of the average small forward so you’d expect his AR to be pretty low (given he’s much more likely to shoot the ball than pass it than the average forward). Given that, I’d say his AR which is below average but not too far below, is pretty good. I’d also say the fact that our guards have been awful shooting from the outside and not only that, often reluctant to take open jumpers when Melo passes back out to them has depressed his numbers even further.

      That’s not to say the team might not have been better off with just continuous ball and player movement instead :)

    44. xduckshoex

      @41 – Why can’t we talk about Melo as a problem? Why does there only have to be one problem on a team that has performed pretty badly so far?

      cgreene:
      To all of you saying Melo is a ball stopper in these first 7 games his ast rate is up from career 15 to 25.That’s enormous.Frankly, as of right now the Melo The Ball Stopper argument needs to go away.

      To put that number in context, his usage rate is currently the 8th highest in NBA history, up there with Iverson for most of his career and 2009 Dwyane Wade(still significantly behind 2006 Kobe and 1987 Jordan though)

      To put that in perspective, Iverson was playing with Eric Snow and Tyrone Hill, Wade was playing with Beasley and Chalmers as rookies, Melo is playing with Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire.

    45. cgreene

      xduckshoex:
      @41 – Why can’t we talk about Melo as a problem?Why does there only have to be one problem on a team that has performed pretty badly so far?

      To put that number in context, his usage rate is currently the 8th highest in NBA history, up there with Iverson for most of his career and 2009 Dwyane Wade(still significantly behind 2006 Kobe and 1987 Jordan though)

      To put that in perspective, Iverson was playing with Eric Snow and Tyrone Hill, Wade was playing with Beasley and Chalmers as rookies, Melo is playing with Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire.

      The only one of those players that had a significantly better ast % was Wade. Pretty good company even though I know everyone here hates AI, I’ll take an NBA finals appearance. So far Amare Stoudemire is playing at about the level of Tyrone Hill without the D (haha) and TD would happily be having Eric Snow’s 2000-2001 season. But you’re right there are lots of problems:
      Douglas, Fields, Stoudemire, Bibby in order of importance.

      Melo is having a phenomenal start to his year.

    46. xduckshoex

      I don’t care about their assist percentages, I’m just pointing out that players usually only have usage rates as high as Melo when they are not playing with other extremely talented players.

      And I don’t know why people keep pretending that Amare’s struggles have nothing to do with the Knicks taking him out of his comfort zone in favour of Melo. If Melo were to take a step back and stop isolating so often they could try to get Amare back into pick and roll scenarios and giving him the ball on the move, and then the team can be less predictable and get more open shots. Everybody wins, except Melo has to take fewer shots.

      And Melo’s individual numbers are fine, but if he’s supposed to be the leader of this team then unfortunately for him their fates are intertwined.

    47. xduckshoex

      There was a play run in the second quarter that is the kind of thing I would like to see more often: Harrellson set a screen for the ball handler, in this case Melo. As that was happening, a pin down screen was set for Amare, who curled off that screen as Melo was coming off the screen. It allowed Amare to catch the ball on the move, two steps from the rim and he finished with an easy lay in. It’s the kind of thing that takes advantage of both of their skill sets and it provides a lot of options: if Amare’s man cheats to cut of Melo’s drive, Amare gets an open 15 footer. If Melo’s man goes under the screen he gets an open jumper. If Melo has the lane Amare doesn’t have to curl, and the off ball action has moved one of the big men away from the rim as he chases Amare over the pin down screen. If Harrellson can get more consistent with his jumper and pop out after setting that pick it gives the Knicks yet another option.

    48. hoolahoop

      Granted, Amare has not been his best this season. However, he has something that doesn’t show up in the box score, The will to win. After a putrid first quarter, Amare turned last nights game around in the second quarter. He came out on a mission. He was not going to lose to the Wiz. Again, he is having a subpar season but he has an intangible quality of The will to win. It’s that intangible that really makes greatest players. MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Wade all have it. They will not be denied. Their intensity rises far above other players, when it matters most. Every single player, to a different degree, has a desire to win. The stronger that desire, the more valuable that player is (within his ability). The most skilled players with the greatest will to win are the most valuable players. Bird and Magic got it. I think Dirk and Rose got it. I’m not talking about great ball players trying very hard to win when they’re down in the final few seconds. I’m talking about willing your team to victory. That means scoring – or facilitating the weakest player on your team to score. It means Defense. Succeeding. Intimidating. Off the charts desire. Bill Russell and Jerry West got it.

    49. Juany8

      I’m guessing the people who have a problem with Carmelo also had a huge problem with Kobe’s 05-07 seasons. No being the leader of a 12 man basketball team does not mean you are personally responsible for the fates of the team. Toney Douglas might be the worst point guard I’ve ever seen. He’s decent as a scorer, but he has zero sense of when to pass and run an offense, can’t penetrate against even the slightest defensive pressure, and when he tries, he just pulls up for a horrible jumper instead of passing or doing anything intelligent. Do the Melo haters realize that he’s not a point guard? That Dirk, Durant, and Pierce don’t exactly run their team’s offense either? In fact other than Lebron, virtually no small forward runs their team’ offense, especially not the fast break, pick and roll offense D’antoni would like to run. It’s time to stop pretending Melo is the same player he was when he had Allen Iverson and JR Smith in his backcourt. (although at this point that would be a huge improvement)

    50. xduckshoex

      Saying that the Knicks would benefit from more ball movement and fewer isolations from Melo =/= saying that Melo should be playing like a point guard

      Also, who has said that they hate Melo?

    51. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

      hoolahoop: Granted, Amare has not been his best this season. However, he has something that doesn’t show up in the box score, The will to win. After a putrid first quarter, Amare turned last nights game around in the second quarter. He came out on a mission. He was not going to lose to the Wiz. Again, he is having a subpar season but he has an intangible quality of The will to win. It’s that intangible that really makes greatest players. MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Wade all have it. They will not be denied. Their intensity rises far above other players, when it matters most. Every single player, to a different degree, has a desire to win. The stronger that desire, the more valuable that player is (within his ability). The most skilled players with the greatest will to win are the most valuable players. Bird and Magic got it. I think Dirk and Rose got it. I’m not talking about great ball players trying very hard to win when they’re down in the final few seconds. I’m talking about willing your team to victory. That means scoring – or facilitating the weakest player on your team to score. It means Defense. Succeeding. Intimidating. Off the charts desire. Bill Russell and Jerry West got it.

      Preparing for Cock Jowels spontaneous combustion / nuclear verbal assault in 3….2….1….

    52. hoolahoop

      Seriously, IF Melo could change his mentality, I think he can be one of the true elite players of the league. He has the raw talent. At moments, I’ve seen him play within the flow of the game and look brilliant. Unfortunately, most of the time he prefers to be a ball stopping, ball hogging, one-on-one player. No one takes him to task on it so he continues to play this way.

    53. Spree8nyk8

      cgreene:
      To all of you saying Melo is a ball stopper in these first 7 games his ast rate is up from career 15 to 25.That’s enormous.Frankly, as of right now the Melo The Ball Stopper argument needs to go away.

      +1

    54. xduckshoex

      Let’s look at this “ball stopper” thing from another perspective: 36% of the possessions that occur with Melo on the floor end in an turnover or a shot by Melo. That literally means that 36% of the time(again, the 8th highest mark in NBA history) the ball stops with Melo.

      Assist percentage is the percentage of teammates baskets you get the assist on while you are on the floor. What we can take away from that number is this: in the 36 minutes per game that Melo plays, his teammates score 16-17 baskets. There is no way the Knicks can succeed if this continues, and with the ball in his hands most often and with Melo being appointed the leader of this squad he needs to work with the coaches to find a way to make it work for everyone else. Unfortunately that’s not really what we’ve been seeing with him taking something like 30 shots per game over the last 3 games.

    55. JK47

      I don’t think the Knicks’ “flow” problems on offense can all be attributed to Melo. We have a coaching staff and their job is to get the most out of the talent they have, and when I watch the Knicks offense it’s like watching a pickup game at the Y. If that’s because of Melo’s alleged ball-stopping ways then it’s up to the coach to fix that by installing some more set plays, establishing a coherent system of screens and figuring out a way to get more high-efficiency shots for our scoring-minded, defensive sieve power forward. If the plan on offense is “give the ball to Melo,” then that’s hardly Melo’s fault.

      Time and time again last night the Knick PG (usually Shump) would dribble the ball across court and basically hand the ball to Melo at the elbow. In the last three minutes they even abandoned that and just had Melo bring the ball up the floor. That, unfortunately, is the plan on offense right now, and that falls 100% on the shoulders of Mike D’Antoni.

    56. flossy

      In theory, Carmelo Anthony playing in a classic D’Antoni offense (which is just an uptempo spread pick and roll) in which an effective Baron Davis/Amar’e Stoudemire PnR attack results in an all-you-can-eat buffet of transition points, open jump shots and clear lanes to cut to the rim, sprinkled with the occasional Melo high-post ISO and some plays where Melo is the PnR ballhandler… would be insane, like totally bananas amazing, because Melo would score even more efficiently *and* so would Amar’e.

      In the absence of even a competent PG however we (and the other four guys on the floor) are reduced to watching a constant stream of Melo ISOs. His personal production has been fine, in fact better than average, but it has a deadening effect on the rest of his teammates. Amar’e in particular is suffering from this ill-advised move to make him a stretch 4 so that Melo can fail at running the offense from the SF position. Take the ball out of his hands and give it a PG with some ability and watch the rest of the team (Amar’e and Fields especially) come back to life.

      Basically, Baron Davis cannot come back soon enough. I vote we send him to Germany for a week to get a dose of whatever Kobe got.

    57. Spree8nyk8

      When he came here everyone whined that he wasn’t efficient. Now he’s playing efficiently and you whine that he shoots too much? If he’s shooting efficiently who cares how often he’s shooting. His assist rate is the best of his career, his TS% is the best of his career. There is no real pg guiding this team now, so iso has been a little more necessary (although i’d love to see hm and amar’e or him and tyson PnR more). I mean what is the TS% of the rest of the team combined?

      You guys really need to stop seeking something to cry about.

    58. flossy

      JK47: I don’t think the Knicks’ “flow” problems on offense can all be attributed to Melo. We have a coaching staff and their job is to get the most out of the talent they have, and when I watch the Knicks offense it’s like watching a pickup game at the Y. If that’s because of Melo’s alleged ball-stopping ways then it’s up to the coach to fix that by installing some more set plays, establishing a coherent system of screens and figuring out a way to get more high-efficiency shots for our scoring-minded, defensive sieve power forward. If the plan on offense is “give the ball to Melo,” then that’s hardly Melo’s fault.

      Denver played Melo-ball for 7 years and starts running a truly gorgeous, movement-oriented offense the minute he leaves. The Knicks finally get a team that can and will finally move the ball in D’Antoni’s desired offense, and then we trade for Melo and ever since have been mired in Melo ball.

      Do you really think that coaches like George Karl and Mike D’Antoni just tell their guys to stand around and watch Melo? Or is that just the effect he has on a team?

    59. xduckshoex

      #71 – Do you really think that D’Antoni’s offensive plan is merely “give the ball to Melo”? I don’t know, I think that in the last 7 years we’ve seen enough D’Antoni to know that’s not really how he operates.

    60. JK47

      The Nuggets’ “gorgeous ball movement” offense is 12th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

      Last year, even with ball-stopping, death-to-NBA-offense Carmelo Anthony weighing them down for 50 games, they ranked #1. The year before that, with Carmelo Anthony playing 2600+ minutes, they were #3. The year before that they were #7.

      They’re worse without Melo.

    61. xduckshoex

      Spree8nyk8:
      When he came here everyone whined that he wasn’t efficient.Now he’s playing efficiently and you whine that he shoots too much?If he’s shooting efficiently who cares how often he’s shooting.His assist rate is the best of his career, his TS% is the best of his career.There is no real pg guiding this team now, so iso has been a little more necessary (although i’d love to see hm and amar’e or him and tyson PnR more).I mean what is the TS% of the rest of the team combined?

      You guys really need to stop seeking something to cry about.

      Who cares how much he’s shooting?

      I don’t know, maybe the rest of the Knicks? Fans who want to see the Knicks perform well?

      I don’t tune in to watch Melo so I don’t really care how efficiently he scores as his teammates stand around and watch in a losing effort. I want the Knicks to win, and history dictates that having one player using 36% of the your possessions is not going to do get that done. Melo has the 8th highest usage rate in NBA history, the combined winning percentage of the top 10 is .500 with only one of them ever advancing past the first round(the 2001 Sixers, who needed a historically weak EC to do so, the Knicks don’t have that luxury)

      This idea that Melo is scoring so he is above criticism is ridiculous. We have two established facts: Melo is burning through possessions at an incredibly high rate, and everyone else is playing below their usual (pre-Melo) standards. I don’t understand why people are completely ignoring the possibility that Melo’s high usage isolation game is hurting his teammates performance.

    62. cgreene

      xduckshoex:
      Let’s look at this “ball stopper” thing from another perspective:36% of the possessions that occur with Melo on the floor end in an turnover or a shot by Melo.That literally means that 36% of the time(again, the 8th highest mark in NBA history) the ball stops with Melo.

      Assist percentage is the percentage of teammates baskets you get the assist on while you are on the floor.What we can take away from that number is this:in the 36 minutes per game that Melo plays, his teammates score 16-17 baskets.There is no way the Knicks can succeed if this continues, and with the ball in his hands most often and with Melo being appointed the leader of this squad he needs to work with the coaches to find a way to make it work for everyone else.Unfortunately that’s not really what we’ve been seeing with him taking something like 30 shots per game over the last 3 games.

      So Melo has the ball in iso at the elbow extended and sees 2-3 defenders hedging towards him to collapse if he attempts to take his man off the dribble he basically has 3 options. (1) shoot over the top of the defense, (2) drive into the teeth of the defense and either shoot while guarded by multiple defenders or pass to an open man, (3) skip a pass to an open man on the weak side. Any time he has chosen the pass option to Douglas, Fields or Amare or whomever he has chosen someone who is shooting a combined 165/405 from the field.

    63. flossy

      JK47:
      The Nuggets’ “gorgeous ball movement” offense is 12th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

      Last year, even with ball-stopping, death-to-NBA-offense Carmelo Anthony weighing them down for 50 games, they ranked #1.The year before that, with Carmelo Anthony playing 2600+ minutes, they were #3.The year before that they were #7.

      They’re worse without Melo.

      They’re worse? They didn’t miss a beat when their superstar left and have gotten off to a 6-2 start. They’re certainly better defensively without him and overall it seems to be a wash, at worst.

      Re: the old Nuggets teams, they were well-constructed to complement a ball-dominant wing: a super-efficient scoring PG who mostly deferred to Melo rather than run set plays, good spot-up shooters (Aflallo), a super-efficient medium usage scoring big man with a jump shot (Nene), a bunch of defensive role-players and some instant offense guys like JR who could pick-up the chucking slack when Melo went to the bench.

      Unless you’re really suggesting we should hope that Amar’e Stoudemire turns into Nene, the way Melo played in Denver won’t result in a spectacular offense or a good record given the constitution of his current team.

    64. cgreene

      @77 He’s scoring because HE HAS TO. His teammates are shooting 40% from the field!!!!! He’s not not buying into the game plan. He’s watching his teammates miss time and time and time again and knowing that he is the best option which he is.

    65. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The difference is that Dirk has always been better than Carmelo.http://bkref.com/tiny/Qj7N7

      Better, but similar. Look at the stats and you’ll see lots of striking similarities; ironically, the most glaring difference I see is in rebounding. I also think that Dirk has generally played with a better supporting cast than Melo. But while I agree that Dirk is the (marginally) better player, I think that they have both been unduly criticized.

    66. xduckshoex

      JK47:
      The Nuggets’ “gorgeous ball movement” offense is 12th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

      Last year, even with ball-stopping, death-to-NBA-offense Carmelo Anthony weighing them down for 50 games, they ranked #1.The year before that, with Carmelo Anthony playing 2600+ minutes, they were #3.The year before that they were #7.

      They’re worse without Melo.

      Nah.

      Nuggets offensive rating with Melo last year: 110.9, fourth in the NBA.
      Nuggets offensive rating at the end of the season: 112.3, 1st in the NBA. This means that in less than half the season they managed to increase their offensive rating 1.4 points per 100 possessions which is pretty good.

      The Knicks offensive rating without Melo last year: 110.7, 5th in the NBA.
      The Knicks offensive rating at the end of the season: 110.9, 7th in the NBA.

      The Nuggets this season: 104.5, 12th in the NBA.
      The Knicks this season: 102.5, 16th in the NBA.

      I don’t know where this idea that the Nuggets are worse without Melo is coming from. Also, the Nuggets were 32-25 with Melo last season, they’ve been 24-9 since the trade. The Knicks are 17-18. Again, really not sure how anyone can say the Nuggets are worse without Melo.

    67. cgreene

      My opinion is that Melo’s usage would be down to his career average or below of his teammates could make a bucket.

    68. cgreene

      @82 I assume that the same holds true for the loss of Billups correct? They are better without Billups AND Melo not just without Melo. Because the biggest change on that team in terms of production has easily been the emergence of Lawson at PG.

    69. ess-dog

      People really need to chill out on the “anti-Melo” people. There are maybe 3 or 4 people here who flat out hate Melo and the others are simply critiquing his overall performance.

      For everyone saying “Melo can’t win”, I don’t think anyone is saying he’s ruining the flow or this and that. It’s true ISO basketball can be ugly but we all just want to win – and we haven’t been. And yes, Melo’s had a nice start with a .220WS48 and he doesn’t have many good teammates minus Stat and Tyson and maybe Shump, but let’s remember… IT’S SEVEN GAMES.

      Melo has a long body of work that people here are reacting to. In a vacuum, Melo is a really great player, but does it make sense that he’s making more money than Dwight Howard or Lebron? Not really.

      Some may say the monetary difference is marginal and doesn’t matter, what matters is that we have one of the best players in the game. That’s fine too, I get that and agree.

      Lebron is a hard player to live up to. The Spurs/Lakers/Celtics are hard teams to live up to. Lets put things into perspective.

      The only reason people around here nitpick is because it is SO hard to get to the championship level. Look at all the years Dirk spent toiling and working on his game before finally winning.

      The statistics prove that Melo isn’t Kevin Garnett or Lebron but he’s also probably better that Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson. And there is a strong possibility he could improve.

      And I’m sorry, you can’t just judge the last second shot against the Whiz, you have to judge all the shots before that one. But I don’t think that after a near loss to the worst team in the NBA (and some putrid losses before that), it’s unreasonable to put every player under the magnifying glass – while of course remaining PATIENT.

      Again, no one’s saying “Melo sucks, let’s trade him now.” So please, we’re all in this together – chill the fuck out.

    70. xduckshoex

      cgreene:
      @77 He’s scoring because HE HAS TO.His teammates are shooting 40% from the field!!!!!He’s not not buying into the game plan.He’s watching his teammates miss time and time and time again and knowing that he is the best option which he is.

      Buy we know for a fact that his teammates can hit shots because they do not normally perform this poorly. That’s the problem with this “WHO ELSE IS GOING TO SHOOT” argument, it requires ignoring the past play of the guys he is on the floor with.

      Fields’ TS% is down a full 10 points. Douglas’ is down 12 points. Amare’s is down 4 points from last season, 7 points from his career average. That’s why the “these guys can’t score so Melo has to” argument just doesn’t work.

    71. ess-dog

      Z-man: Better, but similar.Look at the stats and you’ll see lots of striking similarities; ironically, the most glaring difference I see is in rebounding.I also think that Dirk has generally played with a better supporting cast than Melo. But while I agree that Dirk is the (marginally) better player, I think that they have both been unduly criticized.

      Melo as an sf plays more at the perimeter than Dirk as a pf, so his assists and steals should be better than they are to be at Dirk’s level.

    72. ethsurken

      xduckshoex:
      Fields’ TS% is down a full 10 points.Douglas’ is down 12 points.Amare’s is down 4 points from last season, 7 points from his career average.That’s why the “these guys can’t score so Melo has to” argument just doesn’t work.

      It’s been only 7 games… that’s a pretty small sample.

    73. xduckshoex

      @ 85 – Thank you for that reasonable post.

      I think that there is a lot of blame to go around for this slow start, but there are things I am willing to excuse:

      1) Amare’s offensive production. With his change in role it’s almost like he’s learning a new position.

      2) DWTDD’s point guard play. He’s not a point guard, I can understand that. He still needs to hit his shots, though.

      3) Landry Fields in general. He doesn’t suck, he’s just a bad fit for this team as presently constructed. He’d be a great glue guy for a team like the Clippers though.

      I think Melo needs to take a big picture look at things and realize that he needs his teammates to set ‘em up so he can knock ‘em down in the fourth and keep them involved, even if it means suffering a few more losses early in the season. You can’t learn to play together if you’re not playing together.

      I think D’Antoni needs to come up with come creative ways to help Melo get Amare the ball in his hot spots. I also think that Melo needs to be moved off the ball more, he’s an amazing catch and shoot player.

      I think that management needs to start entertaining trades for Amare or Melo, and though I like Amare more I think that as presently constructed he’s the one that makes less sense. I’m not saying one of them definitely has to go, but it’s definitely something that needs to be considered. Point guard play is the Knicks biggest need, if you can get a Deron Williams or even a Kyle Lowry in a somewhat reasonable trade I think you have to do it. But again, I don’t necessarily think they HAVE to do it, just pursue options and see what comes up.

    74. JK47

      The Nuggets are better defensively, there’s no question about that. They rank #1 in the NBA in defensive efficiency, which is probably unsustainable, but kudos to them for that.

      But they are 12th in offensive efficiency, which is what we are talking about here. For all of the talk of the “gorgeous ball movement” offense they are playing, they are a less efficient offense so far this season, period. Their offensive rank is lower than it’s been since the 2006 season, so let’s not jizz ourselves about the breathtaking beauty of their offense since Mr. Ballstopper left town.

    75. cgreene

      xduckshoex: Buy we know for a fact that his teammates can hit shots because they do not normally perform this poorly.That’s the problem with this “WHO ELSE IS GOING TO SHOOT” argument, it requires ignoring the past play of the guys he is on the floor with.

      Fields’ TS% is down a full 10 points.Douglas’ is down 12 points.Amare’s is down 4 points from last season, 7 points from his career average.That’s why the “these guys can’t score so Melo has to” argument just doesn’t work.

      Think we may just have to respectfully agree to disagree. This is where the eye test really matches the stats IMO. What is it about Melo’s presence on the floor that is prohibiting Stat from making an 18 ft jump shot. I mean I think he’s made less than 5 of what has to be in the range of 30 attempts this year. If you want to say that the style of play has affected Landry with Melo on the court I am willing to accept that but I also think we see NBA coaching adjustments and a lack of athleticism from Landry but who knows. TD played some of the best ball of his career last year with Chauncey hurt as a starter. Why has Melo’s presence hurt his shooting and defense? I mean if you are going to put some of the blame on Melo for this there needs to be some evidence. His teammates are playing really badly and to insinuate that somehow that’s on him is a reach I think.

    76. Z-man

      ess-dog: Melo as an sf plays more at the perimeter than Dirk as a pf, so his assists and steals should be better than they are to be at Dirk’s level.

      He is not at Dirk’s level but closer than suggested by THCJ in the post I alluded to. Increasing his assists is not impossible (his assist rate has been good for a sf since coming here) and steals are a suspect metric. One thing noteworthy is that he’s a better offensive rebounder than Dirk was at that age.

    77. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex: Who cares how much he’s shooting?

      I don’t know, maybe the rest of the Knicks?Fans who want to see the Knicks perform well?

      history dictates that having one player using 36% of the your possessions is not going to do get that done.Melo has the 8th highest usage rate in NBA history, the combined winning percentage of the top 10 is .500 with only one of them ever advancing past the first round(the 2001 Sixers, who needed a historically weak EC to do so, the Knicks don’t have that luxury)

      Jordan won a title with a usage rate of 35%, He also won a few others with rates higher than 33%. So idk about the history dictates angle. But anyway, the lack of a pg is a fairly large factor in Melo’s usage rate right now. Personally until we get Baron ready I would rather see melo shoot efficiently in an iso than Toney Douglas dribble around and miss seeing every cutteer and then pass to a 3 pt shooter with 5 seconds left on the clock. Have you ever thought that the reason his rate is that high might be because the 64% of the time that he isn’t being used the team is not doing enough? Melo’s assist rate is the highest of his career, he has been trying to involve his teammates but they have underperformed and he ends up being forced to assert himself further. But even at that, if he is doing it efficiently. Then it’s not an issue. When we have a pg running things, and his teammates pick up their play, those numbers will come down some.

    78. hoolahoop

      JK47:
      The Nuggets’ “gorgeous ball movement” offense is 12th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

      Last year, even with ball-stopping, death-to-NBA-offense Carmelo Anthony weighing them down for 50 games, they ranked #1.The year before that, with Carmelo Anthony playing 2600+ minutes, they were #3.The year before that they were #7.

      They’re worse without Melo.

      They’re worse? Denver is in first place in a tough division including OKC.
      I’ll throw a statistic at you. The post melo Denver Nuggets have a win-loss ratio of 75% this season.

      Answer me this question: Do you think Denver would undo the Melo trade given the opportunity?

    79. cgreene

      xduckshoex:
      @ 85 –

      1)Amare’s offensive production.With his change in role it’s almost like he’s learning a new position.

      I think Melo needs to take a big picture look at things and realize that he needs his teammates to set ‘em up so he can knock ‘em down in the fourth and keep them involved, even if it means suffering a few more losses early in the season.You can’t learn to play together if you’re not playing together.

      I think the thing that will help Amare the most and open things up for him and the team will be to start hitting the midrange consistently then his man will play up on him and that will really open things up for him and the team.

      Not really sure the second suggestion is that realistic.

    80. xduckshoex

      JK47:
      The Nuggets are better defensively, there’s no question about that.They rank #1 in the NBA in defensive efficiency, which is probably unsustainable, but kudos to them for that.

      But they are 12th in offensive efficiency, which is what we are talking about here.For all of the talk of the “gorgeous ball movement” offense they are playing, they are a less efficient offense so far this season, period.Their offensive rank is lower than it’s been since the 2006 season, so let’s not jizz ourselves about the breathtaking beauty of their offense since Mr. Ballstopper left town.

      Again, in two months after Melo left last season they climbed from 5th to 1st and had their rating go up over 1 full point; that takes some significant improvement in the short term.

      They had an almost identical offensive rating to the Knicks when the trade was made, since then they have clearly had a higher rating. Sorry, that’s an inarguable fact. Using a small sample from this season is not going to change that.

    81. xduckshoex

      cgreene: I think the thing that will help Amare the most and open things up for him and the team will be to start hitting the midrange consistently then his man will play up on him and that will really open things up for him and the team.

      Not really sure the second suggestion is that realistic.

      It’s not realistic for Melo to share the ball with his teammates?

      Why is that not realistic?

    82. Caleb

      xduckshoex:
      @41 – Why can’t we talk about Melo as a problem?Why does there only have to be one problem on a team that has performed pretty badly so far?

      To put that number in context, his usage rate is currently the 8th highest in NBA history, up there with Iverson for most of his career and 2009 Dwyane Wade(still significantly behind 2006 Kobe and 1987 Jordan though)

      To put that in perspective, Iverson was playing with Eric Snow and Tyrone Hill, Wade was playing with Beasley and Chalmers as rookies, Melo is playing with Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire.

      This is not accurate – I just skimmed the #s for the last nine seasons and Melo’s usage rate this season is 12th highest just since 2003. It’s also a career high and I’d guess it will come down a bit as the year goes on.

      The usage rates are remarkably consistent – same guys, again and again, with nearly the same numbers.

      Carmelo has ranked 3rd to 5th in usage rate, every year in the league. He’s never been above 31 for a full season.

      The only people to have higher usage rates since 2003 than Melo’s 32.3 this year, are Kobe, Iverson, Wade and McGrady – plus Jermaine O’Neal also put up a 32.3 one year. LeBron has hit 32.2 twice.

      IMO it is a little silly all this agonizing over Melo’s offense – he’s a terrific offensive player, having a good year. What keeps him from being an elite, top-shelf guy, is his rotten defense.

      The Nugs offense hasn’t suffered, but that’s largely because they got multiple good offensive players in return, and also had good offensive guys on their roster who get to play more (Lawson) and shoot more (Nene). If you took Melo of this year’s Knicks, they’d be scoring 75 a game.

    83. JK47

      Okay, as a team, yes, they are doing better, mainly because they rank #1 in the NBA in defensive efficiency. So yay for them. I don’t think that kind of defensive performance is sustainable, mainly because their wins have come against teams that rank 22nd, 26th, 13th, 27th, 21st and 23rd in the NBA in offensive rating. They have played a who’s who of crap NBA offenses. The one time they played against a top ten offense they allowed 111 points, so let’s see how that defense holds up when they’re not playing Milwaukee and Sacramento.

      Anyway, I am strictly talking about the offensive side of the ball, where they rank 12th, the lowest they have ranked in quite some time. If this continues all season and their offensive ranking is not in the top 5 by the end of the season, I don’t see how you can say anything other than that their offense is worse without Melo.

    84. Ben R

      What I’ve noticed with Melo is he goes through phases where he is really playing within the flow of the offense, getting assists, getting baskets off assists, exploiting 1on1 matchups. Then he just decides he needs to “take over” and all that stops. He starts demanding the ball early in the shot clock or brings it up himself, teammates stop cutting and our flow grinds to a halt. The frustrating thing is most of the time Melo holds the ball a resonable amount and is an amazing offensive player. Sometimes he does become a terrible ball stopper and that is what I’m trying to point out.

      Last night Melo played a good game but in the fourth Melo became exactly the player we don’t want him to be.

      Melo reenters the game with 6:28 left, we are up by 5, Shumpert makes a 2 pointer with 5:56 left we are up 7, Carmelo then makes two baskets off of a Chandler assist and a Shumpert assist, our offense is flowing we are up 8 with 4:56 left in the game.

      Then the wheels fall off, Melo decides to stop passing and starts isolating. Melo misses six out of his next seven shots and other than 2 Amare turnovers and a forced jumper by Amare and a really forced jumper by Shumpert no one else even really touches the ball. Our 8 point lead with 4:56 left is now a 1 point deficit with 24 seconds left. Then the Knicks actually run a play and Melo makes a great 3 pointer off an Amare assist, Knicks win.

      If we had kept moving the ball that 8 point lead probably would have never disintegrated and Melo never would have had to make that great shot.

    85. hoolahoop

      hoolahoop:

      Answer me this question: Do you think Denver would undo the Melo trade given the opportunity?

      Spree8nyk8:
      YES

      If that’s what you think, there’s no discussing this. Denver has been on a tear since he left. 24-9 overall, 6-2 this season. Why would they want him back?

    86. cgreene

      xduckshoex: It’s not realistic for Melo to share the ball with his teammates?

      Why is that not realistic?

      You suggested that he share the ball at the end of close games like last night instead of shooting it and the possibility of losing to build cohesion and trust. Losing does not build cohesion and trust.

    87. hoolahoop

      Ben R:
      What I’ve noticed with Melo is he goes through phases where he is really playing within the flow of the offense, getting assists, getting baskets off assists, exploiting 1on1 matchups. Then he just decides he needs to “take over” and all that stops. He starts demanding the ball early in the shot clock or brings it up himself, teammates stop cutting and our flow grinds to a halt. The frustrating thing is most of the time Melo holds the ball a resonable amount and is an amazing offensive player. Sometimes he does become a terrible ball stopper and that is what I’m trying to point out.

      Last night Melo played a good game but in the fourth Melo became exactly the player we don’t want him to be.

      Melo reenters the game with 6:28 left, we are up by 5, Shumpert makes a 2 pointer with 5:56 left we are up 7, Carmelo then makes two baskets off of a Chandler assist and a Shumpert assist, our offense is flowing we are up 8 with 4:56 left in the game.

      Then the wheels fall off, Melo decides to stop passing and starts isolating. Melo misses six out of his next seven shots and other than 2 Amare turnovers and a forced jumper by Amare and a really forced jumper by Shumpert no one else even really touches the ball. Our 8 point lead with 4:56 left is now a 1 point deficit with 24 seconds left. Then the Knicks actually run a play and Melo makes a great 3 pointer off an Amare assist, Knicks win.

      If we had kept moving the ball that 8 point lead probably would have never disintegrated and Melo never would have had to make that great shot.

      Well observed.

    88. Spree8nyk8

      Because the team that they have is going to be great in the regular season and fail in the postseason. They aren’t designed to win in the post season. And look at the trade, who do they have from that trade that is still on the team? Gallo and Mozgov? The rest are gone, you think they wouldn’t trade Gallo and Mozgov to have Melo back? End of story. I mean they had good players there before Melo left, that is why they are winning. It’s not because of Gallo and Mozgov.

    89. cgreene

      Ben R:
      What I’ve noticed with Melo is he goes through phases where he is really playing within the flow of the offense, getting assists, getting baskets off assists, exploiting 1on1 matchups. Then he just decides he needs to “take over” and all that stops. He starts demanding the ball early in the shot clock or brings it up himself, teammates stop cutting and our flow grinds to a halt. The frustrating thing is most of the time Melo holds the ball a resonable amount and is an amazing offensive player. Sometimes he does become a terrible ball stopper and that is what I’m trying to point out.

      Last night Melo played a good game but in the fourth Melo became exactly the player we don’t want him to be.

      Melo reenters the game with 6:28 left, we are up by 5, Shumpert makes a 2 pointer with 5:56 left we are up 7, Carmelo then makes two baskets off of a Chandler assist and a Shumpert assist, our offense is flowing we are up 8 with 4:56 left in the game.

      Then the wheels fall off, Melo decides to stop passing and starts isolating. Melo misses six out of his next seven shots and other than 2 Amare turnovers and a forced jumper by Amare and a really forced jumper by Shumpert no one else even really touches the ball. Our 8 point lead with 4:56 left is now a 1 point deficit with 24 seconds left. Then the Knicks actually run a play and Melo makes a great 3 pointer off an Amare assist, Knicks win.

      If we had kept moving the ball that 8 point lead probably would have never disintegrated and Melo never would have had to make that great shot.

      I think this is a great point and a bit counter to my pro Melo arguments. But just as much as blaming Melo for holding and forcing, I think Amare and the rest of the team defer a bit and stop moving and cutting and from what I hear from MDA I think Melo in iso is actually a little bit of the end of game coaching…

    90. xduckshoex

      cgreene: You suggested that he share the ball at the end of close games like last night instead of shooting it and the possibility of losing to build cohesion and trust.Losing does not build cohesion and trust.

      Nah, that’s not what I said at all. I just said spreading the ball around and getting everybody functioning at a high level is best for the team in the long term, even if it means taking a few losses now.

      Losing as a team will build more cohesion than losing while one guy takes all the shots.

    91. hoolahoop

      Except, it’s usually not a small percentage of the time. I see it the other way around.
      For small portions of games he plays within the flow of the offense.
      He looks brilliant, the knicks look like they can beat anybody. But, he doesn’t seem to be satisfied in what he must perceive to be a diminished roll. He abandons the cohesive ball moving, player motion offense and goes into 1-on1 for several consecutive plays with defenders draping all over him. Downhill from there.

    92. xduckshoex

      Spree8nyk8: So I guess you’re just going to ignore the part about Jordan winning titles with similar usage?Since that part works against your argument?

      Jordan had two seasons in the top 10, I think his teams were below .500 in both of them.

      How does pointing out that teams were successful with their best player using fewer possessions than Melo is using now somehow counter my argument that the team needs him to use fewer possessions to win?

    93. nicos

      xduckshoex: Buy we know for a fact that his teammates can hit shots because they do not normally perform this poorly.That’s the problem with this “WHO ELSE IS GOING TO SHOOT” argument, it requires ignoring the past play of the guys he is on the floor with.

      Fields’ TS% is down a full 10 points.Douglas’ is down 12 points.Amare’s is down 4 points from last season, 7 points from his career average.That’s why the “these guys can’t score so Melo has to” argument just doesn’t work.

      A big chunk of Fields decline in TS% is shooting from three- he’s taking more- 3.6 to 3.0 and hitting far less .393 vs. .200. And it’s not like he’s taken a bunch of contested shots- he generally only takes the three when wide open and he’s just missing them. That’s got absolutely nothing to do with Melo. His lanes for cutting have disappeared as the middle has become more congested but that’s also the result of having Chandler, not just Melo.
      And Douglas is a guy who’s created his own shot as often as not (50% of his fgs were assisted last year, just 41% in his rookie year). This year 48.5% of his field goal are assisted- pretty much in keeping with his career numbers- lack of ball movement isn’t killing him, his inability to convert anything is. Both Fields and Douglas’s usage rates are up and I don’t think the shots they’re getting are significantly worse than in previous seasons, they’re just missing them.
      Would the Knicks be better served if Melo shot somewhat less and moved the ball more? Sure, but Douglas and Fields have flat out stunk and I don’t think you can blame just Melo for their struggles. Melo’s not a point guard and never has been- he;s being asked to do something he’s never done before- expecting him to facilitate the offense like LeBron is pretty unrealistic, especially as this is a new role for him.

    94. BigBlueAL

      This is amazing, people saying the Knicks should lose games with the scrubs shooting all the time rather than win games with Melo shooting alot because its better in the long term. Unbelievable.

    95. Ben R

      Spree8nyk8: So I guess you’re just going to ignore the part about Jordan winning titles with similar usage?Since that part works against your argument?

      I watched Michael Jordan, I screamed at my TV cause of Michael Jordan and Spree, Melo is no Michael Jordan.

    96. ruruland

      hoolahoop:
      hoolahoop:

      Answer me this question: Do you think Denver would undo the Melo trade given the opportunity?

      If that’s what you think, there’s no discussing this. Denver has been on a tear since he left. 24-9 overall, 6-2 this season. Why would they want him back?

      I’m really surprised how truncated this discussion is on what’s supposed to be a high-brow board. Denver’s winning percentage from 2008 (post-Billups trade) through 2010 was close to 70 percent with Melo and Billups in line-up.

      Now, the dynamics of last season for Denver, with the distractions of the trade, lowered that win percentage some.

      Denver is not, however, better than they were with Melo and Billups– they are worse.

      Denver got on an incredible roll after the trade, using all of the pent up energy from the previous 6 months.

      They have a perfect George Karl team — deep, fast, up-tempo, aggressive in trapping defense, with multiple ball-handlers and offensive intitiators– no stars, no great players.

      They are better defensively, which is more of an indictment on Chauncey Billups then Melo, as Billups was clearly the biggest issue with Denver’s defense before.

      But, they aren’t any better offensively, despite being much better in transition (more Lawson, Felton and Andre Miller, all superior up-tempo players).

      Given the altitude, roster and coaching philosophies, there is fantastic congruency between personnel attributes and style of play…

      But you might want to go back and look at how they’ve played in 4th quarters….. they don’ have anyone who can create his own shot against a set defense…. that is always going to be their downfall— something they were great at with Melo and Chauncey.

    97. hoolahoop

      Spree8nyk8: So I guess you’re just going to ignore the part about Jordan winning titles with similar usage?Since that part works against your argument?

      So, Denver is not better off after the trade, and now you’re repeatedly comparing Melo to Michael Jordan.
      Very astute points.

    98. xduckshoex

      BigBlueAL:
      This is amazing, people saying the Knicks should lose games with the scrubs shooting all the time rather than win games with Melo shooting alot because its better in the long term.Unbelievable.

      Really? Who said that? I never saw anybody say anything like that.

    99. ruruland

      BigBlueAL:
      This is amazing, people saying the Knicks should lose games with the scrubs shooting all the time rather than win games with Melo shooting alot because its better in the long term.Unbelievable.

      I had the same reaction.

    100. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Really?Who said that?I never saw anybody say anything like that.

      It’s clearly the implication in multiple posts the last few days.

    101. xduckshoex

      ruruland: It’s clearly the implication in multiple posts the last few days.

      Nah. That’s called “spin”. Nobody has actually said they want the Knicks to lose rather than win.

      I know, because BBA was clearly referring to my posts and I have said nothing like that.

    102. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex: Jordan had two seasons in the top 10, I think his teams were below .500 in both of them.

      How does pointing out that teams were successful with their best player using fewer possessions than Melo is using now somehow counter my argument that the team needs him to use fewer possessions to win?

      Because you are only looking at HIGHER usage, Jordans usage on his title teams were very similar. Shades below, Melo’s usage rate is going to come down some, the sample size is too small. I mean you are talking about a % point or two comparison with a small sample. Completely ignoring what other teams have done with numbers that are within a fraction of being the same as Melo’s usage rate is kinda self serving. All I’m saying is that you are stating that nobody can win with usage rates that high and it obviously is possible.

    103. ruruland

      hoolahoop:
      Except, it’s usually not a small percentage of the time. I see it the other way around.
      For small portions of games he plays within the flow of the offense.
      He looks brilliant, the knicks look like they can beat anybody. But, he doesn’t seem to be satisfied in what he must perceive to be a diminished roll. He abandons the cohesive ball moving, player motion offense and goes into 1-on1 for several consecutive plays with defenders draping all over him. Downhill from there.

      I would love to break down the film for you to show you how inept the Knicks supporting players have been when Melo’s played within the “flow” of the offense, since you don’t seem to trust the numbers.

    104. BigBlueAL

      xduckshoex: Nah.That’s called “spin”.Nobody has actually said they want the Knicks to lose rather than win.

      I know, because BBA was clearly referring to my posts and I have said nothing like that.

      You are damn right im refering to your posts.

    105. cgreene

      xduckshoex: Nah, that’s not what I said at all.I just said spreading the ball around and getting everybody functioning at a high level is best for the team in the long term, even if it means taking a few losses now.

      Losing as a team will build more cohesion than losing while one guy takes all the shots.

      If this is not suggesting that losing now with better ball movement is better than Melo taking shots then I don’t understand

    106. Spree8nyk8

      hoolahoop: So, Denver is not better off after the trade, and now you’re repeatedly comparing Melo to Michael Jordan.
      Very astute points.

      When did I compare Melo to MJ? I mean get real dude, the only thing that I said was that MJ won titles with high usage rates. Maybe instead of focusing on what clever thing you wanna say to insult me you should actually focus on improving your reading skills. You said would denver undo the trade to get Melo back and yeah, they would….sorry if that doesn’t agree with you, but they only have 2 of those guys playing (WC is in China and we don’t know that Denver is going to be where he goes when he comes back). So yeah, i’m sure they would be willing to part with Gallo and Moz to get him back. If you disagree, you’re entitled.

    107. hoolahoop

      BigBlueAL:
      This is amazing, people saying the Knicks should lose games with the scrubs shooting all the time rather than win games with Melo shooting alot because its better in the long term.Unbelievable.

      The implication was clear. The team should learn how to gel and play good cohesive team basketball so they will be better in the long run.
      I’d rather have good, solid effort, team building losses than eek out a win in an unsustainable system.

    108. xduckshoex

      Spree8nyk8: Because you are only looking at HIGHER usage, Jordans usage on his title teams were very similar.Shades below, Melo’s usage rate is going to come down some, the sample size is too small.I mean you are talking about a % point or two comparison with a small sample.Completely ignoring what other teams have done with numbers that are within a fraction of being the same as Melo’s usage rate is kinda self serving.All I’m saying is that you are stating that nobody can win with usage rates that high and it obviously is possible.

      …but it hasn’t been done.

      Sure, it’s possible in theory, just like it’s possible that one day Tyso Chandler will become a three point shooting machine, but historically it has never been done and historically teams whose stars use that many possessions are barely playoff teams. Pointing to an individual season like the one where Jordan’s usage was 34.7 and they still won a title doesn’t really mean anything; that’s one title in 25 seasons with usage rates greater than 34. Not really the best odds, right?

    109. Ben R

      Wow. people really don’t like any criticism of Melo. He is a great player, the best Knick since Ewing, by a wide margin, but he is not not as good as he could be. That’s what I’m criticizing. If he would move the ball more and exploit 1on1 defense rather than attack double and triple teams it would actually punish teams for keying on him.

      Also he shoots the long 2 way too often, the fact that he can be efficient while shooting inefficient shots and constantly attacking double teams just shows you how good he is. I would just like to see him shoot a few less 20 footers and pass quicker out of the double and triple team. Would I like him gone? No. Would I like him shooting less than Douglas or Amare? No. but I can still lament his bad choices when he makes them.

    110. BigBlueAL

      hoolahoop: The implication was clear. The team should learn how to gel and play good cohesive team basketball so they will be better in the long run.
      I’d rather have good, solid effort, team building losses than eek out a win in an unsustainable system.

      The implication is as stupid as saying certain players have “the will to win.”

    111. cgreene

      Ben R:
      Wow. people really don’t like any criticism of Melo. He is a great player, the best Knick since Ewing, by a wide margin, but he is not not as good as he could be. That’s what I’m criticizing. If he wouldmove the ball more and exploit 1on1 defense rather than attack double and triple teams it would actually punish teams for keying on him.

      Also he shoots the long 2 way too often, the fact that he can be efficient while shooting inefficient shots and constantly attacking double teams just shows you how good he is. I would just like to see him shoot a few less 20 footers and pass quicker out of the double and triple team. Would I like him gone? No. Would I like him shooting less than Douglas or Amare? No. but I can still lament his bad choices when he makes them.

      As a Melo supporter I agree with everything you just said 100%. As it relates to criticizing him vis a vis the current Knicks’ struggles versus other team mates who are playing terribly and then implying that it is somehow his fault and the team may actually be better off losing some more to create this phony idea of cohesion, that is actually a demonstration of how strong the bias is against Melo not how strong the support is for him.

      Apologies for the horrible run on sentence

    112. hoolahoop

      BigBlueAL: The implication is as stupid as saying certain players have “the will to win.”

      It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t know what that means.

    113. xduckshoex

      cgreene: If this is not suggesting that losing now with better ball movement is better than Melo taking shots then I don’t understand

      …but it still doesn’t express a desire to see the team lose. It reduces the scenario to two possibilities: the Knicks win with Melo shooting or the Knicks lose with everyone shooting. That’s completely stripping away context and nuance from the point.

      Here is the point: the Knicks are not going to win in the playoffs with Melo taking 33 shots to score 37 points and the supporting cast playing the way they are right now. I mean, if that barely gets you past the Wizards, the Heat and Bulls are going to eat you up. We saw what happened to Derrick Rose last year when he tried to do it himself in the playoffs, his offensive game went in the toilet and unfortunately the Knicks are not going to have the top defense in the NBA to keep them in games.

      So if this is not going to work long term(and it’s clear that it is not), isn’t the best solution for the Knicks to try something different?

      Though I guess I should just play the same game:

      This is amazing, people saying the Knicks should lose in the playoffs with Melo shooting all the time instead of winning while the team shares the ball and plays together. Unbelieveable.

      Did I do it right?

    114. jon abbey

      Ben R:
      Wow. people really don’t like any criticism of Melo. He is a great player, the best Knick since Ewing, by a wide margin, but he is not not as good as he could be. That’s what I’m criticizing. If he wouldmove the ball more and exploit 1on1 defense rather than attack double and triple teams it would actually punish teams for keying on him.

      Also he shoots the long 2 way too often, the fact that he can be efficient while shooting inefficient shots and constantly attacking double teams just shows you how good he is. I would just like to see him shoot a few less 20 footers and pass quicker out of the double and triple team. Would I like him gone? No. Would I like him shooting less than Douglas or Amare? No. but I can still lament his bad choices when he makes them.

      exactly.

      and there’s almost no reason to just hold the ball as long and as often as he does, not to mention there’s not much reason for NY to walk it up every time and not set up the offense until there’s 12-14 seconds left on the shot clock. this leads to bad shots, whether it’s Melo or someone else taking them.

      waiting to SHUMP SHUMP the game thread…

    115. Spree8nyk8

      hoolahoop: It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t know what that means.

      it is kind of a stupid expression, every game that is won a player can have a “will to win”. It’s like saying Tebow is gonna win today because Jesus loves him.

    116. xduckshoex

      BigBlueAL: The implication is as stupid as saying certain players have “the will to win.”

      Okay then, point blank: do you honestly see the Knicks winning in the playoffs the way they are playing right now?

    117. ruruland

      Ben R:
      Wow. people really don’t like any criticism of Melo. He is a great player, the best Knick since Ewing, by a wide margin, but he is not not as good as he could be. That’s what I’m criticizing. If he wouldmove the ball more and exploit 1on1 defense rather than attack double and triple teams it would actually punish teams for keying on him.

      Also he shoots the long 2 way too often, the fact that he can be efficient while shooting inefficient shots and constantly attacking double teams just shows you how good he is. I would just like to see him shoot a few less 20 footers and pass quicker out of the double and triple team. Would I like him gone? No. Would I like him shooting less than Douglas or Amare? No. but I can still lament his bad choices when he makes them.

      But, right now it’s abundantly clear that a high volume of “bad” Melo shots gives the Knicks a better chance to win than a similar number of shots from others….

      I would venture to guess that supporting players fg% is under 40 on clean looks created by Melo..

    118. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex: Okay then, point blank:do you honestly see the Knicks winning in the playoffs the way they are playing right now?

      maybe, just maybe since it’s only been 7 games and all, the better question would be “do you think this is how they are going to be playing when they get to the playoffs?”

    119. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Okay then, point blank:do you honestly see the Knicks winning in the playoffs the way they are playing right now?

      No, however it can be argued that by playing this style it wil take longer to build cohesion, it wil also allow the team to win as it finds that cohesion.

      the cohesion will come… But Melo is ensuring the hol isn’t so deep that it doesn’t matter.

    120. cgreene

      xduckshoex: Okay then, point blank:do you honestly see the Knicks winning in the playoffs the way they are playing right now?

      They won’t even make the playoffs if Amare and TD don’t play significantly better. That, of course, has nothing to do with Melo.

    121. xduckshoex

      Spree8nyk8: maybe, just maybe since it’s only been 7 games and all, the better question would be “do you think this is how they are going to be playing when they get to the playoffs?”

      That’s kind of dodging the question, especially since my intelligence/loyalty was called into question for suggesting the Knicks try something different.

      I certainly hope that they’re not playing this way because what they are doing now isn’t working.

    122. ruruland

      jon abbey: exactly.

      and there’s almost no reason to just hold the ball as long and as often as he does, not to mention there’s not much reason for NY to walk it up every time and not set up the offense until there’s 12-14 seconds left on the shot clock. this leads to bad shots, whether it’s Melo or someone else taking them.

      waiting to SHUMP SHUMP the game thread…

      How many times has Melo swung the ball quickly only for a bad shot or turnover to occur?

      It’s not as though Melo is holding the ball on every possession. The offense is simply not working with the ball in other’s hands… How can you not see that ?

    123. Spree8nyk8

      xduckshoex: That’s kind of dodging the question, especially since my intelligence/loyalty was called into question for suggesting the Knicks try something different.

      I certainly hope that they’re not playing this way because what they are doing now isn’t working.

      Well all I can say is that UNTIL the players around him start playing better I hope Melo maintains his usage rate. I’d love for the team to be more balanced, but if it means they are going to lose, then i’d rather let melo do his thing.

    124. xduckshoex

      ruruland: How many times has Melo swung the ball quickly only for a bad shot or turnover to occur?

      It’s not as though Melo is holding the ball on every possession. The offense is simply not working with the ball in other’s hands… How can you not see that ?

      Basketball is very much a rhythm sport.

      If the team is moving the ball and you are getting the ball regularly in familiar spots, it keeps you in rhythm and keeps you on top of your game.

      If your team is not moving the ball and you get the ball infrequently or in unfamiliar places/situations, it hurts your game.

      The great teams are the ones who work through the rough patches together, not the ones who stop passing to players when they make mistakes.

    125. jon abbey

      ruruland: How many times has Melo swung the ball quickly only for a bad shot or turnover to occur?

      It’s not as though Melo is holding the ball on every possession. The offense is simply not working with the ball in other’s hands… How can you not see that ?

      I can of course see that, but I also saw the same team play a lot better with Shumpert moving the ball around, Bibby even came back to life. I agree that it’s not fair to ask Melo to be a PG (and I think any attempts at him playing ‘point forward’ have obviously failed), but he can get his shot with 5 seconds left on the shot clock as easily as he can with 12 seconds left on the shot clock. holding it for 8 seconds and then shooting only hurts whatever offensive ability his teammates have.

      and no, he’s obviously not the main problem, but like someone said above, he eventually needs to play smarter if he wants to lead this team to playoff series wins.

    126. hoolahoop

      Melo taking shots with guy draping all over him, whether he makes them or not, is the wrong formula for sustained winning basketball. All of the Melo detractors here are fully aware of how talented he is. The problem is that he could be a more valuable player to the team by playing in a system that includes more guys in the offensive scheme. Instead of standing around, other players will work hard to earn a pass for an easy bucket. Easy buckets build confidence to knock down outside shots. Guys who start making baskets get energized to play more intense defense. All I’m saying is that the team, and Melo, would excel in a ball moving, player motion defense – more so than they are now.

    127. BigBlueAL

      xduckshoex: Okay then, point blank:do you honestly see the Knicks winning in the playoffs the way they are playing right now?

      Of course not but the fact is if we keep waiting for players like TD and Fields to start playing better and keep there will be no playoffs. There is a reason D’Antoni basically benched TD the entire 2nd half last night.

      Thats the problem with your theory. The Knicks need to win as many games as possible right now however they can period. Ask D’Antoni if he doesnt mind losing games right now rather than win ugly.

    128. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: I’m really surprised how truncated this discussion is on what’s supposed to be a high-brow board. Denver’s winning percentage from 2008 (post-Billups trade) through 2010 was close to 70 percent with Melo and Billups in line-up.

      Now, the dynamics of last season for Denver, with the distractions of the trade, lowered that win percentage some.

      Denver is not, however, better than they were with Melo and Billups– they are worse.

      Denver got on an incredible roll after the trade, using all of the pent up energy from the previous 6 months.

      They have a perfect George Karl team — deep, fast, up-tempo, aggressive in trapping defense, with multiple ball-handlers and offensive intitiators– no stars, no great players.

      They are better defensively, which is more of an indictment on Chauncey Billups then Melo, as Billups was clearly the biggest issue with Denver’s defense before.

      But, they aren’t any better offensively, despite being much better in transition (more Lawson, Felton and Andre Miller, all superior up-tempo players).

      Given the altitude, roster and coaching philosophies, there is fantastic congruency between personnel attributes and style of play…

      But you might want to go back and look at how they’ve played in 4th quarters….. they don’ have anyone who can create his own shot against a set defense…. that is always going to be their downfall— something they were great at with Melo and Chauncey.

      I have to break it to you, man. When you talk about stats in this post, you’re wrong. When you conjecture, you’re not “wrong,” per se, but you sure as hell aren’t right. Let’s start with the first assertion.

      Sure, the Nuggets had close to a 70% win percentage with Melo and Billups in the lineup. And Nene. And Affalo. Lawson. Miller. Birdman. Do you see where I’m going, here? If you want to assign responsibility to…

    129. hoolahoop

      I wonder if the debate we’re having here reflects conversations D’antoni has with Melo.
      I think part of the reason for out difference of opinions may be a result of this being a different era of basketball. Some of us grew up with the idea that ball movement and player motion was the superior brand of basketball. We saw the knicks win their championship using that style. Today’s generation seems to promote 1-on-1 superstar basketball.

    130. xduckshoex

      BigBlueAL: Of course not but the fact is if we keep waiting for players like TD and Fields to start playing better and keep there will be no playoffs.There is a reason D’Antoni basically benched TD the entire 2nd half last night.

      Thats the problem with your theory.The Knicks need to win as many games as possible right now however they can period.Ask D’Antoni if he doesnt mind losing games right now rather than win ugly.

      So if I may give your post the same treatment you gave mine:

      You would rather the Knicks win regular season games than playoff games.

      See how annoying it is to have someone strip away context like that?

      So here is another question, point blank: IF going into the playoffs firing on all cylinders as a team requires some growing pains and maybe a couple of extra losses in the early going of the season do you feel it’s worth it?

      If so, then our disagreement comes down to whether you believe the Knicks can win as a one man show or not. I don’t think they can. If you don’t disagree with that, then you never really disagreed with my point in the first place.

    131. dogrufus

      Is this the Melo we could have the rest of our team starts playing up to their abilities? Stat finding his offense, Chandler finding his rebounding, Bibb finding his jumpshot, and Douglas finding the Bench, and we get a complete reversal in how our offense looks. Yes we are playing a bad team but it’s not like it was the class of the NBA we’ve been stinking it up against.

      It’s incredible how much TD appears to have been limiting this frontline.

      Broadway bigs in the first half:

      29 points, .630 TS%, 12 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 steals, 3 blocks

      STAT and Melo both under 10 shots, over 3 assists

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