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Thursday, July 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Apr 14 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Heat up against Wizards at MSG (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 06:07:27 GMT)
    You can’t even call it the game before the game because that wouldn’t be fair to the other NBA teams that at least try to conduct themselves in a professional manner and play with an ounce of pride.

  • [New York Daily News] No pay needed, Melo hears London calling (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:18:38 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony is going for gold this summer. A gold medal that is, not gold coins. Anthony said on Friday that he does not agree with fellow Olympians Dwyane Wade and Ray Allen, who feel that NBA players should be paid for participating in the Summer Games in London.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 103, Wizards 65: Knicks Rout Wizards to Move Into Tie for Seventh in East (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:39:07 GMT)
    The Knicks got a season-high 18 points from Baron Davis and 23 more from J. R. Smith in a rout of Washington at Madison Square Garden.

  • [New York Times] New Orleans Hornets Are Sold, but Sacramento Kings May Move (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:13:44 GMT)
    The N.B.A. announced the sale of the New Orleans Hornets to the owner of the Saints for $338 million. But the league faced the real possibility that the Sacramento Kings would move.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Nets Beat 76ers on Road, Damaging Philadelphia’s Playoff Prospects (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:13:44 GMT)
    Gerald Green scored 23 points, and Kris Humphries had 18 points and 13 rebounds as the Nets beat Philadelphia, dealing a serious blow to the Sixers’ Eastern Conference push.

  • [New York Times] Nowitzki, West Lead Mavs Past Blazers, 97-94 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:40:55 GMT)
    Dirk Nowitzki had 24 points and nine rebounds, Delonte West added 21 points, seven assists and six rebounds, and the Dallas Mavericks beat the Portland Trail Blazers 97-94 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Lakers Hold Off Nuggets, Clinch Playoff Berth (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:13:51 GMT)
    Andrew Bynum had 30 points and eight rebounds, Matt Barnes added a season-high 24 points, and the Los Angeles Lakers clinched a playoff berth without Kobe Bryant or coach Mike Brown, holding off the Denver Nuggets 103-97 Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Bobcats Crash and Burn Against Weakened Heat (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:07:56 GMT)
    The Miami Heat were without starters Dwyane Wade and Udonis Haslem but still feasted on the league’s worst team, handing the Charlotte Bobcats a 15th consecutive loss in a 105-82 home romp on Friday.

  • [New York Times] Saints Owner Tom Benson Buys Hornets From NBA (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:32:08 GMT)
    Tom Benson brought stability to the Saints nearly three decades ago and now plans to do the same for the Hornets in small-market New Orleans.

  • [New York Times] NBA Capsules (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:58:51 GMT)
    Gerald Green scored 23 points, and Kris Humphries had 18 points and 13 rebounds to lead the New Jersey Nets to a 95-89 win over the Philadelphia 76ers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Gortat, Nash Lead Suns to Key Win in Houston (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 03:05:07 GMT)
    Marcin Gortat had 20 points and 15 rebounds, Steve Nash had 18 points and 10 assists and the Phoenix Suns boosted their playoff hopes with a 112-105 win over the Houston Rockets on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Gordon Takes Over, Hornets Beat Jazz, 96-85 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:53:13 GMT)
    Eric Gordon scored 10 of his 25 points in the fourth quarter, and the New Orleans Hornets won their first game under prospective new owner Tom Benson, 96-85 over the Utah Jazz on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Oklahoma City Routs Sacramento 115-89 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:05:08 GMT)
    Daequan Cook left the Oklahoma City Thunder locker room, joking that he didn’t want to stick around just to hear Russell Westbrook talk about his jaw-dropping dunk.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Take Care of Pistons 113-97 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:38:11 GMT)
    Drew Gooden scored 26 points, and the Milwaukee Bucks pulled away from the Detroit Pistons in the third quarter for a much-needed 113-97 win Friday night.

  • [New York Times] James, Bosh Led Heat to 105-82 Win Over Bobcats (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:22:58 GMT)
    LeBron James had 19 points and nine rebounds to lead the Miami Heat to a 105-82 victory over the Charlotte Bobcats on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Raptors Hold Off Celtics 84-79 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:07:57 GMT)
    DeMar DeRozan scored 13 of his 22 points in the third quarter and made four pivotal free throws down the stretch as the short-handed Toronto Raptors held off the Boston Celtics 84-79 Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 103, Wizards 65: Knicks Crush Wizards to Tie for 7th in East (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:10:55 GMT)
    Baron Davis scored a season-high 18 points on his 33rd birthday, JR Smith had 23, and the Knicks surged into a tie for seventh place in the Eastern Conference.

  • [New York Times] Arena Deal Crumbles, Sacramento’s NBA Future Shaky (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 06:32:55 GMT)
    The Kings’ future in Sacramento is uncertain again.

  • [New York Times] Green, Brooks Help Nets Top 76ers 95-89 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:52:59 GMT)
    Gerald Green scored 23 points, and Kris Humphries had 18 points and 13 rebounds to lead the New Jersey Nets to a 95-89 win over the Philadelphia 76ers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Pacers Beat Cavs 102-83 to Clinch Playoff Spot (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:52:57 GMT)
    Danny Granger scored 18 points to help the Indiana Pacers defeat the Cleveland Cavaliers 102-83 on Friday night and clinch a playoff berth.

  • [New York Times] Hawks Shoot Way Past Howard-Less Magic 109-81 (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:44:05 GMT)
    Jannero Pargo hit five 3-pointers and scored 17 points, and Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Marvin Williams each had 16 as the Atlanta Hawks beat the Orlando Magic 109-81 on Friday night

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Steve Novak: 'Who's number 47?' (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:34:38 EDT)
    NEW YORK — In one of the most surreal chants you’ll ever hear in any arena started in the fourth quarter at Madison Square Garden Friday night.
    “For-ty seven, for-ty seven …”
    Even Steve Novak had no idea what it was all about. But then he looked up at the scoreboard and realized what it was referencing: how many points the Wizards had at that point — and for a while.
    “I was like, ‘Who’s number 47?’” Novak said. “That’s honestly what I was thinking.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Shumpert day-to-day after ankle sprain (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:48:33 EDT)
    Iman Shumpert thinks he’ll play on Sunday against the Miami Heat. But neither he nor the Knicks can be sure of that after he turned his right ankle in Friday night’s win over the Wizards.
    “It’s day-to-day,” Shumpert said. “So I should be alright.”
    Shumpert suffered the injury with six minutes to play in the third quarter when he landed awkwardly.
    “It was just a sprain,” he said.
    But any injury right now is costly for the Knicks, who are in a tie with Philadelphia for seventh place in the Eastern Conference and three games behind division-leading Boston with seven games to play.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Davis turns back the clock on birthday (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:17:53 EDT)
    Baron Davis turned 33 on Friday.
    A few hours before that night’s game against the Wizards, he was feeling each and every one one of those 33 years. After the Knicks’ morning shootaround, Davis complained about the litany of injuries he has dealt with this season. He said he was nowhere near the condition he’d hoped to be when he signed with the team.
    But once the Knicks hit the court to face the Wizards, Davis turned back the clock. All the aches and tweaks and strains took the night off.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Woodson: Atlantic Division is there to win (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:16:11 EDT)

    NEW YORK — With the Knicks’ 103-65 blowout win Friday night over the Wizards, they overtook the Philadelphia 76ers at the seventh spot in the playoff picture.
    Even though the Knicks and Sixers have the same record (31-28), the Knicks own the tiebreaker. Now, they’re three games back of the Celtics for the Atlantic Division crown. And that’s something Mike Woodson feels the team can capture.
    “It’s about winning, but we can’t worry about what Boston and Philly are doing,” he said during his postgame news conference.

  • [New York Post] Golden-age PG Baron turns game on 33rd birthday into cupcake (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:21:00 -0500)
    When Baron Davis entered the home locker room following the Knicks’ 103-65 beatdown of the Wizards last night, he was serenaded by his teammates.
    First they sang “Happy Birthdayâ? to the point guard, who turned 33 yesterday. Then they plastered him with a face full of cupcakes.
    “It was probably…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Chandler wants Defensive Player of Year (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:17:33 -0500)
    Tyson Chandler never toots his own horn about anything, which may be one reason he never has made an All-Star team. But when the subject of the Defensive Player of the Year Award was raised yesterday, Chandler admitted he hopes he will be considered.
    Knicks interim coach Mike Woodson said…

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks go ahead by 43 in routing Wizards (Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:06:18 EDT)
    Carmelo Anthony refused to look past the Washington Wizards, citing the importance of taking one game at a time during this critical playoff push.

  • 188 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Apr 14 2012)

    1. Cousyfan

      Brian Mahoney of AP reported at 10pm Friday.
      “Knicks PG Jeremy Lin had the stitches from his left knee surgery removed.” So, Jeremy will be back on the MSG court just before the playoffs. We Chinese heal fast.
      Cheers

    2. danvt

      I posted this on the last thread. Sorry if it’s uncool to put it here as well but I’d like the opportunity to have it ripped apart by smarter basketball minds than myself. Have at it kids:

      Just for the record, I think the efficiency thing might be a little over rated. Seems like the most efficient players are the ones that only do certain things well and don’t try to do anything else.

      For example, I love Tyson Chandler. Needless to say, he’s my hero, but maybe the team might be better if his shooting percentage was a little lower. I mean, he pretty much only catches lobs. If he had a couple of post moves in a game and maybe popped one or two ten to fifteen foot shots, his percentages might go down, but the defense might have more to think about and there might be more space for shooters.

      We’ve seen Landry hurt the team all year with his excellent efficiency. Tons of possessions where he had a good look and ended up forcing someone else, most times Melo, to take a contested one late in the clock.

      I think you have to literally throw out about 5 misses in a typical Carmelo Anthony box score. This guy has won me over despite all the negativity I’ve seen here. He’s Eli Manning-esque. Top talent, big heart, no fear.

    3. StatsTeacher

      Cousyfan:
      Brian Mahoney of AP reported at 10pm Friday.
      “Knicks PG Jeremy Lin had the stitches from his left knee surgery removed.” So, Jeremy will be back on the MSG court just before the playoffs. We Chinese heal fast.
      Cheers

      I hope Lin decides to come back sooner rather than later, seems like he could. . . . . . .

    4. Matt Smith

      Howard out for the season? A run for the 6th spot seems just a tad realistic now. We need to crush our three gimmies (NJ, Cleveland, Charlotte) like we did today, and hopefully go at least 2/4 for our last games.

      Anyone else think that with this news, the Heat rest Lebron and possibly try to tank their game with us? It seems like they’d want to face a Howard-less Magic team than the Knicks right now.

    5. TelegraphedPass

      @2 You’ll find that opinion in the minority here, though now that Melo looks more like his old self the critics have quieted a bit.

      I agree with your overarching point. It’s gotten to the point where fans are deciding the best offensive players based on their TS%. I think Melo is one of the most polished and skilled offensive players of the past decade. His normally strong FG% for a high-usage wing is part of it. He can hurt the opposition in so many ways. His low-post footwork is superb. He is capable of making contested shots (always a hit with the fans). He gets to the line at a rate befitting a star, though he doesn’t convert there quite like the Kobe’s and Pierce’s. His free throw and 3 point percentages drag his TS% down, but that doesn’t make him an inefficient scorer. He’s still a threat from deep. You still benefit from him getting to the line. I think there is a strong over-emphasis on TS% going on. When I’ve voiced that opinion, several posters here ripped me. Meh.

      I disagree with your contention that we would benefit from Tyson taking tougher shots. His offensive role right now is perfect. He cleans up the glass and takes high-percentage shots. He doesn’t need a greater role in the offense. The possibility of a marginal spacing benefit isn’t worth the lost possessions considering Chandler is not a knockdown jump shooter.

      And Landry has been far from efficient this year.

    6. danvt

      Matt Smith: Anyone else think that with this news, the Heat rest Lebron and possibly try to tank their game with us? It seems like they’d want to face a Howard-less Magic team than the Knicks right now.

      I’m not sure anyone literally tanks in the NBA anymore, but I do think that, in the last weeks of a season, the tougher match ups may not be who you think. That’s why the wins over the Bucks were so impressive.

    7. danvt

      TelegraphedPass: I disagree with your contention that we would benefit from Tyson taking tougher shots. His offensive role right now is perfect. He cleans up the glass and takes high-percentage shots. He doesn’t need a greater role in the offense. The possibility of a marginal spacing benefit isn’t worth the lost possessions considering Chandler is not a knockdown jump shooter.

      And Landry has been far from efficient this year.

      Thanks for the response. I agree it’s hard to criticize Tyson. It just seems like it’s November again at times out there, our option #1, 2 and 3 has been blown up and we are in desperate need of a new wrinkle.

      On Landry, yes he hasn’t been efficient at times, but it’s his otherwise laudable ability to play within himself, that perhaps hurts the team more. I mean, people pretend that if you put 5 guys on a basketball team with five different discreet skills, and no other skills, that makes for a winning team. It doesn’t work that way. You need guys who are multiple threats and who have the courage to, at least try, to carry a team, at times.

    8. jon abbey

      actually Tyson was more aggressive in trying to score against Milwaukee (after being too passive in the second Bulls game, as I noted here), and it was a huge help.

      I said it in the other thread already, but danvt is right on with that post.

    9. david

      Anyone notice that we’re about to become Pacers fans for a week. They play home-and-homes with both Milwaukee and Philly next week. If they sweep, we’re a 7 seed (or higher); If they tank, we’re still hanging on to the playoffs by our fingernails. It’s weird to say it (I hated Reggie Miller more than any other single living individual for about 4 years) but go….,er, um, pacers…

    10. TelegraphedPass

      jon abbey:
      actually Tyson was more aggressive in trying to score against Milwaukee (after being too passive in the second Bulls game, as I noted here), and it was a huge help.

      I said it in the other thread already, but danvt is right on with that post.

      Hm. Against certain opponents I wouldn’t be opposed to trying Tyson in the post. I wanted to see him post Seraphin more last night. He’s so big and strong that he should be able to get a decent shot off even though his back-to-basket game is unrefined.

      He’s taken 10 hookshots this season, per b-r, and nailed 6 of them.

    11. ABG

      If I understand magic numbers, and I’m not sure I do, the two to be focused on are:

      6–our magic number to clinch the playoffs (or is it 5 due to tiebreakers?)
      5–Orlando’s magic number to clinch the 6th seed.

    12. JLam

      Heat would be better off resting their top players during the final stretch. Pop does it with the Spurs, they were 2nd in the West and one win from 1st and he still rested Duncan , Parker and Ginuboli against the Jazz.

    13. TelegraphedPass

      Also, I’m well prepared to continue my solitary #FreeJeromeJordan movement.

      17.5 PER
      16.2 Total Rebounding Percent (compared to Tyson’s 17.4%)
      .217 WS/48 (compared to Tyson’s .225)

      Also, random, but the New York Knicks have 3 (three) players in the top 5 in offensive rating:
      1. Tyson Chandler
      3. Steve Novak
      5. Jerome Jordan

    14. Owen

      “Just for the record, I think the efficiency thing might be a little over rated. Seems like the most efficient players are the ones that only do certain things well and don’t try to do anything else.”

      “For example, I love Tyson Chandler. Needless to say, he’s my hero, but maybe the team might be better if his shooting percentage was a little lower.”

      Danvt – If efficiency is overrated why are we 7-3 over the last ten games with Melo averaging 29 ppg with a 58.3% ts%?

      If Melo played all the time like he has recently we would not be having the discussions we do about both him and the value of scoring efficiency metrics.

      But the fact of the matter is that he doesn’t.

      Another fact is that as hot as he has been, his stretch over the last ten games still falls short of what Lebron and Durant do on an average basis.

      As I have said many times, if the game Melo showed at his very best was what we saw all the time, my opinion would be far different. But ten games is not going to change my mind….

    15. TelegraphedPass

      Ay Owen bruhcuh nobody is saying efficiency doesn’t matter. Not me nor Ruru is saying that. But he was efficient @Chicago to no avail. It isn’t merely his efficiency driving this boost. It helps, but you and others slander Melo heavily because his efficiency falls short of some in the league while outright ignoring things like FG% which is important outside of TS%. That’s the point I’m trying to make. I can’t speak for others.

    16. Owen

      Also, re Chandler, not sure what you want from the guy. Would our offense really be better if he were wandering away from the basket to spot up for a J, allowing his defender to roam free, and sacrificing his ability to tap out offensive rebounds and score on putbacks?

      Chandler is the most efficient low usage player in the NBA. That’s worth a lot.

      As for Fields, look, he shot amazingly well for the first half of last year. Much better than his college numbers would have suggested him capable of. Then he regressed to his mean. What you are left with is pretty much an average NBA player in my book with some upside if he can fix his shot and start knocking his ft’s down.

      Does hurt the team by not shooting? I don’t think so. I think what really hurts the team is how his ability to play off the ball is neutralized by Carmelo’s inability to pass.

      It’s worth noting that over this hot stretch, Melo is averaging only 2.6 assists per game, well below his career average….

    17. Owen

      Telegraphed Pass – We would be slandering Melo if we said things that weren’t true about him. But I am not doing that at least. His statistical record is what it is.

      Also, count me guilty as charged for ignoring fg%. It’s a pretty useless statistic.

    18. cgreene

      Owen:

      It’s worth noting that over this hot stretch, Melo is averaging only 2.6 assists per game, well below his career average….

      The reason his assists are down is bc that other people haven’t been making shots during the stretch. That’s actually what makes it so amazing. He’s literally singlehandedly carried the offense.

      Owen:

      Also, count me guilty as charged for ignoring fg%. It’s a pretty useless statistic.

      … And if FG% is a useless stat then so is assists/game for the reason that ruru continuously argues which is that Melo’s assists/game in no way account for how he has passed bc his passes out of double teams very often lead to a 2nd pass to an open shooter. Everyone knows that advanced stats account for this very poorly as well as passes leading to FTs. You are cherry picking your stats to prove your point.

    19. formido

      I can’t believe this team was once 8-15 and looked hopeless. A scant few weeks ago, they were struggling to get over .500. A week ago not making the playoffs was a likely possibility.

      Today, they’re 5th in the entire NBA in Hollinger’s Power Rankings. Insane.

    20. Bruno Almeida

      Owen:
      “Just for the record, I think the efficiency thing might be a little over rated. Seems like the most efficient players are the ones that only do certain things well and don’t try to do anything else.”

      “For example, I love Tyson Chandler. Needless to say, he’s my hero, but maybe the team might be better if his shooting percentage was a little lower.”

      Danvt – If efficiency is overrated why are we 7-3 over the last ten games with Melo averaging 29 ppg with a 58.3% ts%?

      If Melo played all the time like he has recently we would not be having the discussions we do about both him and the value of scoring efficiency metrics.

      But the fact of the matter is that he doesn’t.

      Another fact is that as hot as he has been, his stretch over the last ten games still falls short of what Lebron and Durant do on an average basis.

      As I have said many times, if the game Melo showed at his very best was what we saw all the time, my opinion would be far different. But ten games is not going to change my mind….

      that’s exactly the point.

      the guy has a .505 TS% for the year, and people expect us to change our opinions based on 10 games where he’s heavily outperforming his own career averages, which normally means that he will regress?

    21. TelegraphedPass

      Owen:
      Telegraphed Pass – We would be slandering Melo if we said things that weren’t true about him. But I am not doing that at least. His statistical record is what it is.

      Also, count me guilty as charged for ignoring fg%. It’s a pretty useless statistic.

      Eh. Not sure it’s truth. I know his career stats. I don’t think FG% is useless. Not sure how that point can be made.

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      TelegraphedPass: Eh. Not sure it’s truth. I know his career stats. I don’t think FG% is useless. Not sure how that point can be made.

      How is FG% useful?

    23. Ben R

      TelegraphedPass: Eh. Not sure it’s truth. I know his career stats. I don’t think FG% is useless. Not sure how that point can be made.

      First off you can’t look at FG% you have to at least look at efg% because that takes into account 3′s made.

      I think an argument can be made that efg% is useful because TS% can be skewed by players who always take the technical FT’s and has the ball at the end during need to foul situations, also an argument can be made that it is hard to always count on getting calls so it is important to also shoot well when the refs swallow their whistles. I don’t completely agree with this and think TS% id far superior to efg% but I don’t think efg% is useless.

    24. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      TelegraphedPass:
      Also, I’m well prepared to continue my solitary #FreeJeromeJordan movement.

      17.5 PER
      16.2 Total Rebounding Percent (compared to Tyson’s 17.4%)
      .217 WS/48 (compared to Tyson’s .225)

      You’re not alone. There’s no reason that a 7 footer who has shown (in extremely limited minute, but still) that he can be an efficient player. Give him the chance to prove his numbers wrong or regress to the mean. George Karl wouldn’t be fighting for a playoff spot had he realized that he had an All-Rookie player riding his pine…

    25. TelegraphedPass

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: How is FG% useful?

      It measures how many shots a player makes. Super basic but I think it’s false to write it off because there is a shinier stat out there measuring offense. I don’t compare it to TS% because they exist somewhat independently as far as what they’re measuring.

      Essentially, the point seems to be that if a player makes threes and free throws at a high rate then nothing else matters. That’s where I disagree. It’s tough because I put great stock in TS%. I just compliment it with what I’m seeing and what the other stats are saying. And everything points to Melo being a good scoring talent who thinks he’s a little better in isolation than he actually is. But he also is a great low-post option and midrange shooter. Neither of those particularly benefit a wing player’s TS% but helps the offense run.

      Brandon Rush plays a style very conducive to TS%, but it doesn’t contribute much in the way of wins.

    26. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      TelegraphedPass:

      George Karl wouldn’t be fighting for a playoff spot had he realized that he had an All-Rookie player riding his pine…

      haha, still with this? he may get on the All-Rookie team (amusing you cite this, as you mocked the All-NBA team recently, which I’d say is much more accurate), but he’s pretty worthless in most games. he may improve in future seasons, but right now he’s a sieve on D and not a threat to score except on putbacks.

      and the Jerome Jordan love is hilarious also. if you can point me to three specific impressive plays he’s made all year, I’ll be surprised and impressed. garbage time numbers don’t matter, good or bad.

    27. jon abbey

      Twitter news: Shumpert says he’s fine to go tomorrow, and Amare is playing 4 on 4 right now and looking good.

    28. outoftowner

      Bruno Almeida:

      the guy has a .505 TS% for the year, and people expect us to change our opinions based on 10 games where he’s heavily outperforming his own career averages, which normally means that he will regress?

      Looks like Melo’s TS% for the year is now .516 actually. I do feel a little different about Melo after the last 10 games than I did before, myself, which I don’t feel bad about because I completely reevaluated how I felt about Lin about 3 games into Linsanity.

      FWIW, Melo’s performance now is closer to his career average performance than how he was playing early in the year. I don’t really know what happened this season, but Melo, Fields, Douglas, Walker, Amare, JR Smith, Davis, and Bibby all have been much worse with their jump shots than normal. I think its some combination of the layoff, the compressed schedule, not having a good PG for much of the year. We have to take a lot of the numbers from this season with a huge asterisk next to them.

    29. TelegraphedPass

      So Jerome Jordan actually can’t get rebounds or convert dunks? I could care less if his plays are impressive. I want a center who can rebound and protect the basket and spell Tyson.

    30. jon abbey

      TelegraphedPass:
      So Jerome Jordan actually can’t get rebounds or convert dunks? I could care less if his plays are impressive. I want a center who can rebound and protect the basket and spell Tyson.

      we have no idea, I don’t think he’s played a minute that mattered all season.

    31. TelegraphedPass

      I’m really embarrassed at my description of FG%. I got distracted and said it wrong, but y’all get my overall point.

    32. Caleb

      Ts vs fg isn’t a comparison of efficiency measure vs. Something else… It’s a good efficiency measure vs. A bad one. If no one had invented ts we’d be arguing about how important it is that tyson chandler has a 69 percent fg #.

      On melo, I’m not his biggest fan but his ts the last 10 games is closer to his career # than his first 50 games was… He’s around 55 for his career and hit 58.6 for a full season.

      Also his assist percentage is above average for a SF, which when you think about how often he shoots it, means he’s very effective when he decides to pass.

      All in all he’s been mediocre this year (injury?), but for his career he’s been an excellent (top 10?) Offensive player. his non-eliteness, IMO, is about the other end of the court.

      Just lately he’s been better there, too.

    33. Nick C.

      On FG % I guess if you have two players with the same TS% but one has a 41 FG% and the other has 47 the other team has a better chance of scoring on defensive rebounds vs taking the ball out from under the basket for that 6% difference of possessions. But the other argument would be there are 6% more offensive rebound opportunities with the lower FG%. I believe someone made the point that Rose driving and missing was still useful because it resulted in putbacks for Chicago.

    34. gjknick

      Basketball is a such a team game that isolated individual stats simply don’t capture what’s happening on the court the same way that individual stats in baseball do. It leave alot of room for opinion and subjective analysis – does Melo’s (or anyone’s) assist rate really capture if he’s ball hogging or does it miss that he’s passing out of double teams but a secondary pass leads to the bucket or his teammates suck and miss open shots? TS or eFG% or just plain old simple FG% definately tells a story, but misses out how often someone’s getting the ball late in the shot clock out of position because someone else declined to take an open shot. It’s not that the stats aren’t valid, its just that there is so much more context that these individual stats don’t capture. The stuff I’ve seen quoted from Synergy Sports seems to take individual stats to a new level but I too cheap to subscribe! For now overall team stats seem to mean much more relevant and accurate.

    35. ABG

      Presumably if Jordan was showing anything at all in practice, he would have gotten a couple minutes when the Knicks were down to just Chandler and Jorts. I know we’re all way smarter than the coach and these numbers in garbage time at far more significan than what Woodson is seeing every day that we aren’t, but maybe a tad bit of benefit of the doubt applies here.

    36. gjknick

      Have to agree with Jon about Jerome J. Garbage time numbers mean very little. Doesn’t mean he can’t play, just hasnt’ gotten the opportunity yet. Between Jorts strong start (pre wrist injury) and the other JJ having a rebirth of sorts and TC being TC ….

    37. KnicksFanInVA

      Speaking of garbage time, wonder why Bill Walker didn’t get in the game? Isn’t he back from the elbow injury?

    38. gjknick

      In regards to Rose’s penetration and the Bulls Off Reb % – there is a correlation that I can’t prove, but his frequent forays to the hoop have to pull defending bigs over to help leaving Noah, Boozer, Asik, Taj, etc… to clean the glass.
      On the opposite end, you have Boston. They rarely pull down off rebs despite Rondo’s penetration. Pehaps Rondo passes off to his bigs more than shooting? Or Boston emphasizes setting up their D so they don’t crash the glass?

    39. gjknick

      KnicksFanInVA: Speaking of garbage time, wonder why Bill Walker didn’t get in the game? Isn’t he back from the elbow injury?

      I was wondering the same thing. Seemed like a perfect opportunity to get him a couple of minutes and get back in the swing. Even if it’s only to get someone else off the court to prevent injury.

    40. TelegraphedPass

      ABG:
      Presumably if Jordan was showing anything at all in practice, he would have gotten a couple minutes when the Knicks were down to just Chandler and Jorts. I know we’re all way smarter than the coach and these numbers in garbage time at far more significan than what Woodson is seeing every day that we aren’t, but maybe a tad bit of benefit of the doubt applies here.

      I’m not saying there aren’t any reasons to not play more Jerome Jordan. Just that he’s shown out when he’s gotten the opportunity and I want to see more. To be fair, he has that inexperienced big man trait of fouling extensively when on the court. His per36 fouls-per-game is ick.

      The idea that garbage time stats mean nothing is weird to me. Isn’t that how we discovered Jeremy Lin and PHX discovered then gave up on (so Houston could re-discover) Goran Dragic? Isn’t that how Denver realized Faried might be a better option in the rotation than Al Harrington? Just because a guy shows out in limited minutes doesn’t mean he’s incapable of performing similarly given a heavier burden.

    41. StatsTeacher

      Much as I like Rondo his jump shot does not need to be respected while Rose’s (usually) does. Rondo would be the best guard in the game if he added 5-10% to his jump shooting %. He is heavily penalized on his PER for his relatively bad shooting.

      gjknick:
      In regards to Rose’s penetration and the Bulls Off Reb % – there is a correlation that I can’t prove, but his frequent forays to the hoop have to pull defending bigs over to help leaving Noah, Boozer, Asik, Taj, etc… to clean the glass.
      On the opposite end, you have Boston. They rarely pull down off rebs despite Rondo’s penetration. Pehaps Rondo passes off to his bigs more than shooting? Or Boston emphasizes setting up their D so they don’t crash the glass?

    42. TelegraphedPass

      gjknick:
      In regards to Rose’s penetration and the Bulls Off Reb % – there is a correlation that I can’t prove, but his frequent forays to the hoop have to pull defending bigs over to help leaving Noah, Boozer, Asik, Taj, etc… to clean the glass.
      On the opposite end, you have Boston. They rarely pull down off rebs despite Rondo’s penetration. Pehaps Rondo passes off to his bigs more than shooting? Or Boston emphasizes setting up their D so they don’t crash the glass?

      tl;dnr

      None of this is relevant because FG% does not matter. #Trollsohard #OkayIllStop

    43. Doug

      TelegraphedPass:
      So Jerome Jordan actually can’t get rebounds or convert dunks? I could care less if his plays are impressive. I want a center who can rebound and protect the basket and spell Tyson.

      I watch him in garbage time and he looks very green out there. Hard to tell. I’d like to see him get minutes next year.

    44. TelegraphedPass

      There is a very clear search going on amongst NBA fans for “One Stat to Rule them All.” It makes life easier. Instead of actually analyzing the most effective NBA players, just google and see who has the highest PER. Instead of looking at their offensive game, just b-r their TS%. I’m not implying that Owen or anyone else here is doing this, but it feels like we are leaning towards using small formulas to determine a player’s offensive value and I don’t think that’s the right path to take. That’s why players in limited roles often shine in TS%.

      You could make the point that every team should try to build around limiting player roles and putting players in position to succeed by designing around their high percentage shots, but that’s another conversation. I would definitely agree with that theme. Why build a roster that requires a volume shooter to shoot well when you can build one around generating high-percentage shots by players who excel in certain roles?

    45. ABG

      gjknick:
      In regards to Rose’s penetration and the Bulls Off Reb % – there is a correlation that I can’t prove, but his frequent forays to the hoop have to pull defending bigs over to help leaving Noah, Boozer, Asik, Taj, etc… to clean the glass.
      On the opposite end, you have Boston. They rarely pull down off rebs despite Rondo’s penetration. Pehaps Rondo passes off to his bigs more than shooting? Or Boston emphasizes setting up their D so they don’t crash the glass?

      I think it’s as simple as the fact that Chicago has three exceptional offensive rebounders and Boston has zero (apologies to KG but he’s just not the same guy on the offensive boards).

    46. JLam

      Another interesting fact is that Tom Thibodeau was Knicks assistant coach for 7 years including the defensive minded Knicks that made the NBA finals in 1999.

    47. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey: we have no idea, I don’t think he’s played a minute that mattered all season.

      then how can you say he won’t be good?

      the fact is, Jordan has seen VERY limited minutes so far, and in those minutes he was good.

      we can’t analyze anything else than the minutes he played, and on those he has shown the ability to be at least passable.

      he should get more minutes, if not on this last stretch, next season.

    48. Frank

      Owen:

      Another fact is that as hot as he has been, his stretch over the last ten games still falls short of what Lebron and Durant do on an average basis.

      As I have said many times, if the game Melo showed at his very best was what we saw all the time, my opinion would be far different. But ten games is not going to change my mind….

      It’s true enough that this has been a small sample. And it’s also true that Melo playing at his peak is probably not as good as average Lebron in terms of a total floor game. I don’t think even ruruland would say that Melo is in Lebron’s class as a player. That’s never been disputed, and it’s not even worth making that straw man argument.

      Re Durant- I think it is difficult to gauge him vs Melo. If Durant was treated the same way as Melo is treated by the refs, his numbers would be MUCH worse. I don’t think that is even a disputable point. If Melo got the Durant treatment from the refs, he would literally be at the line 15 times per game and would also have a TS near 60. If you don’t agree with this at least a little, you literally have never seen Durant play.

    49. cgreene

      TelegraphedPass:
      There is a very clear search going on amongst NBA fans for “One Stat to Rule them All.” It makes life easier. Instead of actually analyzing the most effective NBA players, just google and see who has the highest PER. Instead of looking at their offensive game, just b-r their TS%. I’m not implying that Owen or anyone else here is doing this, but it feels like we are leaning towards using small formulas to determine a player’s offensive value and I don’t think that’s the right path to take. That’s why players in limited roles often shine in TS%.

      You could make the point that every team should try to build around limiting player roles and putting players in position to succeed by designing around their high percentage shots, but that’s another conversation. I would definitely agree with that theme. Why build a roster that requires a volume shooter to shoot well when you can build one around generating high-percentage shots by players who excel in certain roles?

      That’s just it. If you build a team around high TS% players who excel at a couple of things offensively that becomes very easy to game plan for. Ty Lawson, JJ Reddick, Luol Deng, Kris Humphries, Tyson Chandler for example as the starting 5. Every single one of those players is an efficient scorer. There is not a lot of skills overlap. There is some decent D w Deng and Chandler and maybe Humphries. But none of these players puts enough pressure on a defense that makes it so the other players can take advantage of their plus offensive skills. A team with this starting 5 would be a 6-8 seed in the East and maybe 8 or lower in the West. This is what offensive efficiency stats don’t account for. Melo should be more efficient but that’s because he takes 2-3 bad shots per game. The rest of the time he is elite. And what makes him elite is the fact that he can apply…

    50. jon abbey

      TelegraphedPass:

      You could make the point that every team should try to build around limiting player roles and putting players in position to succeed by designing around their high percentage shots, but that’s another conversation. I would definitely agree with that theme. Why build a roster that requires a volume shooter to shoot well when you can build one around generating high-percentage shots by players who excel in certain roles?

      because history shows that the former tends to be more successful, although of course it depends on your personnel both ways.

    51. StatsTeacher

      Much as I like PER this says it better. Chicago’s bigs pound the glass with very high energy, and that leads to wins. For whatever reason, Boston cannot rebound, and they most likely won’t make it far despite a few nice wins this year.

      ABG: I think it’s as simple as the fact that Chicago has three exceptional offensive rebounders and Boston has zero (apologies to KG but he’s just not the same guy on the offensive boards).

    52. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey: haha, still with this? he may get on the All-Rookie team (amusing you cite this, as you mocked the All-NBA team recently, which I’d say is much more accurate), but he’s pretty worthless in most games. he may improve in future seasons, but right now he’s a sieve on D and not a threat to score except on putbacks.

      and the Jerome Jordan love is hilarious also. if you can point me to three specific impressive plays he’s made all year, I’ll be surprised and impressed. garbage time numbers don’t matter, good or bad.

      this is a joke, right?

      yes, Faried is pretty terrible at defense (news flash: most rookies are), and he can only score on putbacks and inside of 5 feet (and he does it at a very efficient rate, which, we have seen with Chandler, has some value).

      but how can you say a guy that averages 12.4 rebounds per 36 is “pretty worthless in most games”? he has a 20 TRB%, which puts him in the top 7 or 8 in the league, and that number is much higher than even Chandler, our only good rebounder.

      we have seen on our games against the Bulls how valuable good rebounding is, and Faried is obviously an elite rebounder.

      your hate for the guy (because of THCJ and the advanced stats guys) clouds your judgment in an incredible way.

    53. jon abbey

      FG% is even less useful than TS%, not sure why we’re even discussing that.

      TelegraphedPass:

      The idea that garbage time stats mean nothing is weird to me. Isn’t that how we discovered Jeremy Lin and PHX discovered then gave up on (so Houston could re-discover) Goran Dragic? Isn’t that how Denver realized Faried might be a better option in the rotation than Al Harrington? Just because a guy shows out in limited minutes doesn’t mean he’s incapable of performing similarly given a heavier burden.

      Jordan hasn’t even done that. again, point me to any actual plays he’s made this year that make you think he should be playing more. getting some baskets and rebounds at the end of blowout games is entirely irrelevant, close to 100 percent.

    54. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida: this is a joke, right?

      yes, Faried is pretty terrible at defense (news flash: most rookies are), and he can only score on putbacks and inside of 5 feet (and he does it at a very efficient rate, which, we have seen with Chandler, has some value).

      but how can you say a guy that averages 12.4 rebounds per 36 is “pretty worthless in most games”? he has a 20 TRB%, which puts him in the top 7 or 8 in the league, and that number is much higher than even Chandler, our only good rebounder.

      we have seen on our games against the Bulls how valuable good rebounding is, and Faried is obviously an elite rebounder.

      your hate for the guy (because of THCJ and the advanced stats guys) clouds your judgment in an incredible way.

      what he gives you with rebounds and his occasional putback, he more than gives back on defense, not sure how I could explain that any more clearly.

      and I say “he’s pretty worthless in most games” because he is, cumulative numbers don’t show this. he’s had a major impact in a few games, no argument there, but I think he’s pretty overrated by people who just look at stats and don’t actually watch him play.

    55. Bruno Almeida

      rebounding is part of defense too, and Faried helps a lot in that department.

      and if you want to make that analysis, then you need a way to quantify the value of every single possession he plays a part in, from the good and the bad plays he make… which is, needless, to say, impossible.

      you can’t possibly “know” that his his defensive mistakes are worth more than his contributions on offense and on rebounding… can we make the same analysis with Carmelo, for example?

      I’d still take the stats over your opinion on this matter.

    56. jon abbey

      Denver is 14-11 when Faried gets 20 minutes or more, 18-16 when he doesn’t, so basically the same. I just don’t think he is an impact player this year, and playing him more would certainly not have made Denver’s record better, which is the statement I debated.

    57. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida:
      rebounding is part of defense too, and Faried helps a lot in that department.

      and if you want to make that analysis, then you need a way to quantify the value of every single possession he plays a part in, from the good and the bad plays he make… which is, needless, to say, impossible.

      you can’t possibly “know” that his his defensive mistakes are worth more than his contributions on offense and on rebounding… can we make the same analysis with Carmelo, for example?

      I’d still take the stats over your opinion on this matter.

      sure, do what you want. I haven’t seen him play more than maybe ten times, but I’m very underwhelmed.

      and again, Melo has been playing pretty dominant D lately. not adequate, dominant.

    58. Bruno Almeida

      again, it’s a 10 game stretch.

      if Melo keeps playing defense like this, then I’ll have no argument about saying he’s an elite player.

    59. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida:
      again, it’s a 10 game stretch.

      if Melo keeps playing defense like this, then I’ll have no argument about saying he’s an elite player.

      17 games since Woodson took over now.

    60. Bruno Almeida

      he hasn’t been this great on every game since Woodson took over, he had some pretty terrible shooting nights on the first games of this stretch.

      he has been truly great since the Orlando game or, maybe, the Milwaukee game, a 9-10 game stretch.

    61. danvt

      Bruno Almeida: the guy has a .505 TS% for the year, and people expect us to change our opinions based on 10 games where he’s heavily outperforming his own career averages, which normally means that he will regress?

      I think the last ten games is the real Carmelo Anthony. This guy has been the MVP of a team winning the kind of games they haven’t been able to win for a decade. No starting PG or PF and putting the offense on his back. I think coach W sees that, right now, and maybe later too, the proper offense is to let this guy destroy single coverage. If his man sags and he takes one jab step and shoots that pistol quick jump shot, I’ll take it 100 times a game. We’ll score enough and if we play d like we have we’ll win.

    62. Doug

      Bruno Almeida: but how can you say a guy that averages 12.4 rebounds per 36 is “pretty worthless in most games”? he has a 20 TRB%, which puts him in the top 7 or 8 in the league, and that number is much higher than even Chandler, our only good rebounder.

      He also has 5.8 fouls/36. He can’t rebound if he can’t stay on the floor.

    63. Owen

      I am still strongly dissenting on the Melo is playing “dominant” defense meme that Jon and Ruru have been pedaling. I just don’t know what you guys are seeing that I am not. I have been trying to watch nothing but Melo on D when I can watch the games and I just don’t see what the hype is. He certainly isn’t hurting us on that that end. He actually seems to be trying these days, which I have noticed. But the guys I really notice out there are Shump and Chandler, per usual.

      “Re Durant- I think it is difficult to gauge him vs Melo. If Durant was treated the same way as Melo is treated by the refs, his numbers would be MUCH worse.”

      Frank – Per 36 Carmelo is shooting more ft’s than Durant this year. Durant shoots better than Carmelo in every respect (while turning the ball over slightly more) but it’s not the volume of ft’s that accounts for the difference between them. It’s Durant’s ability to convert more efficiently at the line, from the field, and certainly from 3.

    64. gjknick

      TelegraphedPass: There is a very clear search going on amongst NBA fans for “One Stat to Rule them All.” It makes life easier. Instead of actually analyzing the most effective NBA players, just google and see who has the highest PER. Instead of looking at their offensive game, just b-r their TS%. I’m not implying that Owen or anyone else here is doing this, but it feels like we are leaning towards using small formulas to determine a player’s offensive value and I don’t think that’s the right path to take. That’s why players in limited roles often shine in TS%. You could make the point that every team should try to build around limiting player roles and putting players in position to succeed by designing around their high percentage shots, but that’s another conversation. I would definitely agree with that theme. Why build a roster that requires a volume shooter to shoot well when you can build one around generating high-percentage shots by players who excel in certain roles?

      I think we’re in the process of developing better metrics. The current ones are an improvement over the older ones, but we’ve still got a ways to go. But its a journey. Again, I look at baseball and the SABER revolution over the past 15 years. WS per 48 is flawed but I applaud the effort to move things forward.

    65. jon abbey

      Owen:
      I have been trying to watch nothing but Melo on D when I can watch the games and I just don’t see what the hype is. He certainly isn’t hurting us on that that end.He actually seems to be trying these days, which I have noticed. But the guys I really notice out there are Shump and Chandler, per usual.

      well, yeah, those are all-NBA defenders, but Melo has been playing at almost that level lately. he’ll get his biggest test tomorrow head to head against LeBron, then we’ll all have something to talk about.

    66. Caleb

      @60 I’m not equipped for a real faried debate but looking at those records doesn’t mean he’s not an impact player – it sort of says the opposite. He started playing big minutes after the trade… So basically faried replaced Nene, and the nuggets didn’t lose a beat… In fact played slightly better, even though gallo was hurt.

      At least that’s the quickie read on that stat.

    67. Owen

      “I think the last ten games is the real Carmelo Anthony. This guy has been the MVP of a team winning the kind of games they haven’t been able to win for a decade.”

      Danvt – Doesn’t it worry you that this explosion happened just as our two other offensive weapons exited stage left? Or was it just a coincidence.

      The Melo I saw the first 50 games this year was a guy who simply doesn’t play well off the ball. He also has shown pretty convincingly throughout his career that he isn’t a good enough perimeter shooter to serve as a spot up option.

      Those are pretty fundamental aspects of being a polished offensive player, are they not?

    68. Owen

      “There is a very clear search going on amongst NBA fans for “One Stat to Rule them All.” It makes life easier. Instead of actually analyzing the most effective NBA players, just google and see who has the highest PER. Instead of looking at their offensive game, just b-r their TS%. I’m not implying that Owen or anyone else here is doing this, but it feels like we are leaning towards using small formulas to determine a player’s offensive value and I don’t think that’s the right path to take.”

      Telegraphed Pass – I don’t think this is right. At least amongst those stat types on this board, we have actually more or less moved past our belief that there is “one stat to rule them all.” However, many/most of us believe at the same time that the metrics do tell us something valuable (though there are clearly those who post here that would dissent even from that.)

      For the record, I don’t like PER. It rewards shot taking without regard for efficiency. And I don’t think TS% is a measure of net offensive value at all. It’s the best measure of scoring efficiency, which is only a part of offensive value. We just talk about it a lot because Carmelo grades out so poorly there….

    69. johnno

      The people who are pushing for more playing time for Jerome Jordan — you’re kidding, right? I too am curious as to whether he can play, but, last I checked, the Knicks had 7 games left and were fighting to make the playoffs and improve their seeding. Do you think that this is REALLY the time for Woodson to say, “Hey, I bet this tall guy who’s sitting on our bench can school this Garnett stiff — I think I’ll throw him out there.”

    70. jon abbey

      johnno:
      The people who are pushing for more playing time for Jerome Jordan — you’re kidding, right?I too am curious as to whether he can play, but, last I checked, the Knicks had 7 games left and were fighting to make the playoffs and improve their seeding.Do you think that this is REALLY the time for Woodson to say, “Hey, I bet this tall guy who’s sitting on our bench can school this Garnett stiff — I think I’ll throw him out there.”

      yeah, it’s hilarious.

    71. jon abbey

      Caleb:
      @60 I’m not equipped for a real faried debate but looking at those records doesn’t mean he’s not an impact player – it sort of says the opposite. He started playing big minutes after the trade… So basically faried replaced Nene, and the nuggets didn’t lose a beat… In fact played slightly better, even though gallo was hurt.

      At least that’s the quickie read on that stat.

      a bunch of those games were before the trade, and I think Harrington has replaced Nene more than Faried has.

      I’d also like to see Faried’s numbers by quarter (BR doesn’t have this), as he seems to have a lot of games like last night, where he had 5 boards early on, and did almost nothing the rest of the game.

    72. cgreene

      Owen:

      Danvt – Doesn’t it worry you that this explosion happened just as our two other offensive weapons exited stage left? Or was it just a coincidence.

      The Melo I saw the first 50 games this year was a guy who simply doesn’t play well off the ball. He also has shown pretty convincingly throughout his career that he isn’t a good enough perimeter shooter to serve as a spot up option.

      Those are pretty fundamental aspects of being a polished offensive player, are they not?

      The answer to your first question to danvt IMO is “no”. If there is any frustration w Melo it is the hint that he may not have been physically prepared AND the way he was playing D under MDA. It was a combination of the fact that after a torrid start he got hurt and got out of shape with the fact that MDA was using him totally improperly which we have talked about ad nauseam. This leads to your second question. Being a great “spot up” shooter is not indicative of a great offensive player. Lebron is not a great spot up shooter. Wade is not a great spot up shooter. Rose is not a great spot up shooter. Westbrook is not a great spot up shooter. Kobe is not a great spot up shooter. I’d say Melo is as good or better than all of those players at that skill. Again, the thing that kills Melo’s efficiency is mental mistakes. He takes a few more bad shots per game than players with higher TS%. The point is he should have never been a “spot up option” like he was for MDA.

    73. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: that’s exactly the point.

      the guy has a .505 TS% for the year, and people expect us to change our opinions based on 10 games where he’s heavily outperforming his own career averages, which normally means that he will regress?

      Do you not pay attention to what I write? We’ve seen multi-month, 30-40 game stretches, one as long as 95 games, where Melo’s shooting efficiency is above his 5 year sample (and there are specific things going on in those samples).

      Your argument is that Melo, currently the worst shooting year of his career, will continue to regress because he’s had 10 good games?

    74. ruruland

      Owen:
      “There is a very clear search going on amongst NBA fans for “One Stat to Rule them All.” It makes life easier. Instead of actually analyzing the most effective NBA players, just google and see who has the highest PER. Instead of looking at their offensive game, just b-r their TS%. I’m not implying that Owen or anyone else here is doing this, but it feels like we are leaning towards using small formulas to determine a player’s offensive value and I don’t think that’s the right path to take.”

      Telegraphed Pass – I don’t think this is right. At least amongst those stat types on this board, we have actually more or less moved past our belief that there is “one stat to rule them all.” However, many/most of us believe at the same time that the metrics do tell us something valuable (though there are clearly those who post here that would dissent even from that.)

      For the record, I don’t like PER. It rewards shot taking without regard for efficiency. And I don’t think TS% is a measure of net offensive value at all. It’s the best measure of scoring efficiency, which is only a part of offensive value. We just talk about it a lot because Carmelo grades out so poorly there….

      So poorly compared to whom and what time-frame?

    75. ruruland

      Owen:
      “I think the last ten games is the real Carmelo Anthony. This guy has been the MVP of a team winning the kind of games they haven’t been able to win for a decade.”

      Danvt – Doesn’t it worry you that this explosion happened just as our two other offensive weapons exited stage left? Or was it just a coincidence.

      The Melo I saw the first 50 games this year was a guy who simply doesn’t play well off the ball. He also has shown pretty convincingly throughout his career that he isn’t a good enough perimeter shooter to serve as a spot up option.

      Those are pretty fundamental aspects of being a polished offensive player, are they not?

      What are you trying to say by “without the ball”? Do you mean spot-up shooting.

      Melo’s numbers were down in every category, but going back, he’s historically been an efficient spot-up shooter the last 6 years or so.

      So, we’re left with other off-ball situations. When Melo first returned from injury, he was moving exceptionally well, Lin wasn’t finding him often. But you remember the Boston game in Boston, and some of the other games, where he was really effective finding holes in the defense….

      Moving without the ball is really only useful when you have a penetrating guard or wing with great passing skills and anticipation. Lin wasn’t that yet.

      WHere are you getting this facts from?

      Again, don’t ignore the fact that Melo had very efficient seasons playing alongside Allen Iverson. His last 4 months with Allen were extremely efficient.

    76. Owen

      “So poorly compared to whom and what time-frame?”

      Well, this year it’s been a big bone of contention, since Melo shot the ball so incredibly poorly through the first 50 games. He has now inched his way closer to league average.

      Obviously, as I have noted in the past, he has usually been a little above league average in his career rather than a little below average as he is now. This hasn’t been a typical year for him by any means.

      But it’s not like efficiency is his calling card.

      “What are you trying to say by “without the ball”? Do you mean spot-up shooting.”

      I mean moving without the ball. Cutting without the ball, etc…

    77. ruruland

      Owen:
      I am still strongly dissenting on the Melo is playing “dominant” defense meme that Jon and Ruru have been pedaling. I just don’t know what you guys are seeing that I am not. I have been trying to watch nothing but Melo on D when I can watch the games and I just don’t see what the hype is. He certainly isn’t hurting us on that that end.He actually seems to be trying these days, which I have noticed. But the guys I really notice out there are Shump and Chandler, per usual.

      “Re Durant- I think it is difficult to gauge him vs Melo. If Durant was treated the same way as Melo is treated by the refs, his numbers would be MUCH worse.”

      He’s been superb on the block against post-players… Really excellent there.

      I don’t think he’s been dominant since he had to carry the offensive load, but with Lin and Amar’e he was playing elite defense — great rotations, coming off his man harassing guys with the ball, great man defense……

      You’ll never believe that or appreciate that so there really isn’t a point to talking about.

      I’m sure you’ll dismiss the fact that Melo is ranked as the 72nd best defender in the NBA by Synergy right now.

      So let’s move on to something that will give you a chance to be honest, if not intellectually, at least with yourself.

      Let me ask you this…. Give us a list of guys that you’d prefer having over Melo for these final 7 games and into the playoffs. Put some time into and give us a complete list, excluding the obvious ones like Lebron, Howard, whatever — no one has injuries, everyone is healthy.

    78. ruruland

      Owen:
      “So poorly compared to whom and what time-frame?”

      Well, this year it’s been a big bone of contention, since Melo shot the ball so incredibly poorly through the first 50 games. He has now inched his way closer to league average.

      Obviously, as I have noted in the past, he has usually been a little above league average in his career rather than a little below average as he is now. This hasn’t been a typical year for him by any means.

      But it’s not like efficiency is his calling card.

      “What are you trying to say by “without the ball”? Do you mean spot-up shooting.”

      I mean moving without the ball. Cutting without the ball, etc…

      Cutting without the ball. Well, this isn’t the flex offense, and you may notice that the teams with the best off-ball players are also the teams with the best passers and penetrators.
      Lin is the only guy on the roster who can currently and consistently accommodate good off-ball movement, but he really hasn’t developed the floor vision or mindset for it yet.

      Early in his career, the only time in his career Melo played alongside a good passing point guard, he was rewarded for off-ball movmement– the percentage of assisted baskets was much higher than it was with Iverson, Billups and now eh, Douglas and Davis..

    79. Owen

      Re Iverson – Vintage Iverson was a guy who averaged 25 shots per game for a 5 year period for a team that played at a slower than league average pace. Denver Iverson, the 07-08 version for instance, averaged 20 shots per game for a team that played at the fastest pace in the NBA.

      And we have a fair sample size of seeing Melo work with Lin and Amare, two guys who need the ball in their hands to thrive also. It didn’t work to well as you will recall.

    80. ruruland

      Owen:
      “So poorly compared to whom and what time-frame?”

      Well, this year it’s been a big bone of contention, since Melo shot the ball so incredibly poorly through the first 50 games. He has now inched his way closer to league average.

      Obviously, as I have noted in the past, he has usually been a little above league average in his career rather than a little below average as he is now. This hasn’t been a typical year for him by any means.

      But it’s not like efficiency is his calling card.

      “What are you trying to say by “without the ball”? Do you mean spot-up shooting.”

      I mean moving without the ball. Cutting without the ball, etc…

      Melo’s third year in the NBA he had a .563TS
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html
      The best team in the league that year had a TS of 55.6
      Obviously that’s better than a “little above” league average.
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

      He followed it up with a .552 (which went way down with Iverson)
      Only 5 teams in the league had higher team TS%….. So obviously that’s better than a” little above” league average
      http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/trueShootingPct/year/2007

      The next year he followed it up with .568 (adjusting to Iverso), which, among teams, would have ranked sixth in the league. Again, that’s better than a “little above” league average.”

      http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/trueShootingPct/year/2008

      His numbers since have been very closer to average. But, again, when you look at the injuries he’s played through each year, look at the structure of the offenses he’s played in, that’s understandable.

    81. ruruland

      Owen:
      Re Iverson – Vintage Iverson was a guy who averaged 25 shots per game for a 5 year period for a team that played at a slower than league average pace. Denver Iverson, the 07-08 version for instance,averaged 20 shots per game for a team that played at the fastest pace in the NBA.

      And we have a fair sample size of seeing Melo work with Lin and Amare, two guys who need the ball in their hands to thrive also. It didn’t work to well as you will recall.

      What does the above even mean? Iverson’s shots went down some, but his usage was around 27 (allowing Iverson to have his most efficient seasons as a pro)?

      27 usage is still very high. Iverson was a shot-oriented ball-handler, with whom Melo had a really efficient scoring season with, how is that disproof of his ability to play with other offensive players?

      We have an extremely small sample with Melo, Amar’e and Lin playing together. We know Amar’e efficiency is largely tied to point guard play. We know Amar’e efficiency post-Melo last year was very similar to pre-Melo, despite having a point guard in Billups who was much less effective in the pnr.

      So, do you believe Amar’e efficiency went down in the first half because of Melo or because of his weight, and the lack of a point guard on the roster sans Lin?

      What do you make of his very efficient last 10 games or so with Melo and Lin?

      Does Lin’s efficiency coinciding with Melo have to do with Melo, or perhaps the fact that he played better defenses more preapred to stop him?

    82. Owen

      League Average TS% in 05-06 was 53.5%. So his 56.2% was quite good.

      The next year league average rose to 54.1 and he fell to 55.2, as you said. So he swung from being 2.7% above league average to 1.1%. In 07-08 he was 2.8% above average. In 08-09 he was below average, the next year above it by .5%.

      Meanwhile, this year, Kevin Durant is at 60.9% while league average is 52.8%.

    83. ruruland

      Owen:
      League Average TS% in 05-06 was 53.5%. So his 56.2% was quite good.

      The next year league average rose to 54.1 and he fell to 55.2, as you said. So he swung from being 2.7% above league average to 1.1%. In 07-08 he was 2.8% above average. In 08-09 he was below average, the next year above it by .5%.

      Meanwhile, this year, Kevin Durant is at 60.9% while league average is 52.8%.

      Right, Durant’s numbers elite among high-usage wings. It he, Lebron and everyone else.

      That has no bearing however on how Melo’s numbers have often been better than “just a little” above league average, especially among high usage counterparts.

    84. Owen

      The point re Iverson is that he was a different player in Denver, with Melo, than he was in Philly where he led the league in usage 6 out of 7 years for a stretch.

      I don’t know when Lin was more efficient. My impression is that he was far more efficient in the stretch when Melo was off the floor. Someone correct me if I am wrong?

      I don’t think you can close the book on Melo and Amare playing together. Amare’s health issues are clearly a big question mark. But it hasn’t looked very good this year.

      It did look good last year. Melo shot 42.4% from three on a career high 4.6 3pta/g and 87.2% from the line last year in his 27 game debut, way above his career averages. If that had something to do with a healthy Amare being out there on the court with him, then yeah, I am excited about the future. I really liked that Melo.

      But what we have seen this year is not that guy….

    85. ruruland

      Owen:
      The point re Iverson is that he was a different player in Denver, with Melo, than he was in Philly where he led the league in usage 6 out of 7 years for a stretch.

      I don’t know when Lin was more efficient. My impression is that he was far more efficient in the stretch when Melo was off the floor. Someone correct me if I am wrong?

      I don’t you can close the book on Melo and Amare playing together. Amare’s health issues are clearly a big question mark. But it hasn’t looked very good this year.

      It did look good last year. Melo shot 42.4% from three on a career high 4.6 3pta/g and 87.2% from the line last year in his 27 game debut, way above his career averages. If that had something to do with a healthy Amare being out there on the court with him, then yeah, I am excited about the future. I really liked that Melo.

      But what we have seen this year is not that guy….

      Right, Iverson had his most efficient years with Melo, he was a different guy and they split the scoring load. If that team had any 3pt shooting at all they would have been amazing offensively (Nene was out, and the offense featured Anthony Carter, Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin around Iverson and Melo).

      I’m not sure Melo will ever be a 42% 3pt shooter over a full year, but I do know he transformed himself into a good 3pt shooter since the early years — 354, 371, 378 three of the last four years.

      A number that rises in catch-and-shoot.

      How about that list of guys you’d want over Melo moving forward the final 7 games and into the playoffs.

    86. TelegraphedPass

      Curious: When you get the chance ruru, could you explain your strong interest in Melo? Just curious since you work so diligently to support your high opinion of the guy and his ability.

    87. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Do you not pay attention to what I write? We’ve seen multi-month, 30-40 game stretches, one as long as 95 games, where Melo’s shooting efficiency is above his 5 year sample (and there are specific things going on in those samples).

      Arbitrary endpoints. If his shooting efficiency is above his five year sample over those stretches, in the other stretches, he must be well under it. How does this support a thesis that he is an exceptionally efficient shooter at all?

      And TelegraphedPass and StatsTeacher, you two really need to read “Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics” before you continue posting. There’s a world of information out there that shows why PER and FG% are exceptionally unhelpful as metrics.

    88. Owen

      “How about that list of guys you’d want over Melo moving forward the final 7 games and into the playoffs.”

      Even with guys like Love, Aldridge, Nash, Anderson, Howard, and Deron out of consideration, there are a lot of guys I would rather have….

    89. Doug

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: And TelegraphedPass and StatsTeacher, you two really need to read “Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics” before you continue posting. There’s a world of information out there that shows why PER and FG% are exceptionally unhelpful as metrics.

      lol sure that’s not patronizing or anything

    90. ruruland

      Owen:
      “How about that list of guys you’d want over Melo moving forward the final 7 games and into the playoffs.”

      Even with guys like Love, Aldridge, Nash, Anderson, Howard, and Deron out of consideration, there are a lot of guys I would rather have….

      Right….. like?????

    91. TelegraphedPass

      THCJ,
      I’m really not sure you’re reading anything I’m saying
      I’m not interested in continuing a debate.

      To others:

      Yeah, obviously I understand threes are worth more than twos and free throws should be thrown in there. My point, as I’ve stated, is that I don’t compare the validity of FG% and TS%. Melo’s TS% suffers due to his FT% and 3PT%, obviously. But he’s a surer two points from within the arc from the field. There is value there that TS% doesn’t entirely account for. Is the point I’m trying to make.

    92. Owen

      Guys that I would rather have going into the playoffs, with notations for ones I am not sure about, leaving injured guys off the list….

      Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Chris Bosh (maybe, maybe not), Andre Iguodala, Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, Luol Deng (maybe, maybe not), Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Dirk, Marc Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lawson, Millsap, Al Jefferson, Kobe, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Steve Nash (in the playoffs?).

    93. TelegraphedPass

      Oh, and this is going back a tad, but I was never saying we SHOULD play Jerome Jordan more in the remaining games. Just saying I want to see more from him. I’ve seen his D-League and Tulsa production. He rebounds well, he’s fairly athletic, he fouls a lot. I just wish I had a large enough sample to compare his production and presence to, say, Jorts’.

    94. jon abbey

      if you would really rather have Ryan Anderson in a vacuum over the current version of Melo, I don’t even know what to say.

    95. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Arbitrary endpoints. If his shooting efficiency is above his five year sample over those stretches, in the other stretches, he must be well under it. How does this support a thesis that he is an exceptionally efficient shooter at all?

      Not arbitrary at all unless you truly don’t believe that there’s an adjustment period between high-usage players. Melo is also a contact-prone player that’s historically taken away from his efficiency because he creates a lot of contact on his shots — accumulating injuries to his hands, wrists, and elbows. Maybe you say that is what it is, but I think the higher percentage of cleaner looks Melo gets and doesn’t have to create for himself, the less injured he’ll be, and with the same group of players, namely a penetrating guard, Melo will have a great chance of posting his most efficient shooting years in New York — the same kind of numbers we saw Melo post the last 4 months of his tenure with Iverson, the same numbers Melo posted his final 95 games with Andre Miller, the ones he posted with Billups in the playoffs of ’09 and into ’10 before the injuries hit.

      And Owen, without the flex, Deron has a WS/48 well under .100. That means he’s a below average player, correct?

    96. jon abbey

      ah, crossposted, at least Anderson’s not on that list. a lot of those guys are apples and oranges, but I’m not the one who asked for the list.

    97. ruruland

      Owen:
      Guys that I would rather have going into the playoffs, with notations for ones I am not sure about, leaving injured guys off the list….

      Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Chris Bosh (maybe, maybe not), Andre Iguodala, Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, Luol Deng (maybe, maybe not), Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Dirk, Marc Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lawson, Millsap, Al Jefferson, Kobe, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Steve Nash (in the playoffs?).

      Ok good. Lawson, dude, haha. Alright. Let’s see what happens moving forward the rest of the year.

    98. ruruland

      Doug:
      Blake Griffin? Al Jefferson? Boozer?

      Yeah, imagine that. Jazz have been relatively healthy all year, have had significantly better point guard play than the Knicks, and HAVE both Jefferson and Milsap, yet they have the same record as the Knicks.

      And of course Boozer. We see what happens when Boozer gets matched up with Melo on both ends — and it’s not like the guy has played his career in good systems or surrounded by good players. Lebron, Williams, Rose, the flex.

      Whether you create your shot or score off opportunity doesn;t make a lick of difference to advanced folks.

    99. TelegraphedPass

      ruruland: Yeah, imagine that. Jazz have been relatively healthy all year, have had significantly better point guard play than the Knicks, and HAVE both Jefferson and Milsap, yet they have the same record as the Knicks.

      And of course Boozer. We see what happens when Boozer gets matched up with Melo on both ends — and it’s not like the guy has played his career in good systems or surrounded by good players. Lebron, Williams, Rose, the flex.

      Whether you create your shot or score off opportunity doesn;t make a lick of difference to advanced folks.

      Clearly, you haven’t read The Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics.

    100. ruruland

      Melo also has a much better 7 year WS/48 than Deng, including this year on a team with far fewer wins. The same is true historically for Iggy.

      So, id be interested to hear how your rationale changes for each of these examples. Are does WS/48 and TS% only matter to certain players you don’t like?

    101. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: Clearly, you haven’t read The Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics.

      That’s his boilerplate response most of the time. I wouldn’t pay it any mind.

    102. jon abbey

      I wish I had enough time and interest to write The Layman’s Guide to Why Basketball Statistics Suck.

    103. TelegraphedPass

      Checked it out. It was kind of complex for me. I’ll just have to wait for The Honorable Cock Jowles’ Guide to Reading The Layman’s Guide to Advanced Statistics.

    104. Ben R

      TelegraphedPass: Yeah, obviously I understand threes are worth more than twos and free throws should be thrown in there. My point, as I’ve stated, is that I don’t compare the validity of FG% and TS%. Melo’s TS% suffers due to his FT% and 3PT%, obviously. But he’s a surer two points from within the arc from the field. There is value there that TS% doesn’t entirely account for. Is the point I’m trying to make.

      Well if you’re interested in looking at how well Melo scores within the arc you don’t want to look at FG% because that includes 3pt shots so players that shoot lots of 3 pointers will look inefficient. You instead want to look at 2pt%. FG% is a dated statistic and you either have to look at efg% to adjust for 3 pointers or 2pt% to exclude them. To have 3pt shots counted but not weighed differently skews the measurement.

      Melo, like a lot of skilled players who struggle with efficiency, likes the long two pointer, which is the worst shot in basketball. As long as he keeps shooting lots of 16-23 footers his efficiency will never be as good as it could be and he will be prone to hot and cold streaks. In fact one of Melo’s beefs with D’Antoni was D’Antoni’s hatred for the long 2 pointer. He wanted Melo to step back and initiate from behind the arc. Instead Melo wanted to initiate from the elbow which results in lots of long two pointers.

      Many of the best defenses have a no three pointers, no layup defense. Let your opponent shoot as many contested two point jumpers as they want, protect the rim and chase off the 3 point line. That is the philosophy of the best defenses in the NBA yet Melo plays right into that by taking lots of contested two point jumpers.

    105. TelegraphedPass

      @114 Yeah definitely. Melo, for some reason, converts those long twos at a fairly high rate most years. Like in the 45% range. Though Paul Pierce (as an example) is a better shooter from deep, he doesn’t smell Melo on the long twos. For whatever that’s worth I suppose.

    106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Doug: lol sure that’s not patronizing or anything

      Sorry that I don’t feel the need to explain with my own words why FG% is a worthless statistic when these posters could simply click a link at the top of the page, read for ten minutes, so we could talk about other things, like whether ruruland’s forthcoming Nixon: A Most Honorable President or A History of Rush Limbaugh, America’s Humanitarian will make the national bestseller lists.

    107. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      TelegraphedPass: uote)

      Don’t be mad at me for telling you what’s truth: FG% is an awful statistic. Maybe if we were talking about 2PT% you’d have some merit, but frankly, I don’t care how good Melo is at the 16-footer. I care about how many points he scores per possession used in a scoring attempt. Posters like ruruland and jon abbey can wax subjective all day, but I’d much rather assemble a team based on stats than the much riskier (but apparently more useful, if you ask this board) proposition that we go with our gut: that Baron Davis is an NBA starter. I don’t buy it.

      Honestly, I just miss Mike K. Every time he posts he says something smart about statistics, but now we just have Owen saying, “Well, maybe you’re wrong about your eyetest because of the myriad and overwhelming cultural factors that influence your judgment,” and everyone else saying, “No, it’s clear that the stats are dead wrong, wrong to the point that we should dismiss them if they don’t follow my preconceptions about player ability. Hence why Melo is the team’s MVP despite the .515 TS%. I mean, did you not watch the Heat game?”

      Come back, Mike. Knickerblogger’s been overrun by the Bleacher Report crowd.

    108. Ben R

      TelegraphedPass:
      @114 Yeah definitely. Melo, for some reason, converts those long twos at a fairly high rate most years. Like in the 45% range. Though Paul Pierce (as an example) is a better shooter from deep, he doesn’t smell Melo on the long twos. For whatever that’s worth I suppose.

      The problem is even if Melo is shooting at 45% from 16-23 feet, which is very good, it is still a worse shot than a three pointer or a shot closer to the rim. Even the best shooters from 16-23 feet still do better either stepping back and shooting 3′s or attacking the rim. Long two pointers should be the very last option for any offense and unfortunately Melo chooses to shoot those long 2′s way too often.

    109. TelegraphedPass

      Ben R: The problem is even if Melo is shooting at 45% from 16-23 feet, which is very good, it is still a worse shot than a three pointer or a shot closer to the rim. Even the best shooters from 16-23 feet still do better either stepping back and shooting 3?s or attacking the rim. Long two pointers should be the very last option for any offense and unfortunately Melo chooses to shoot those long 2?s way too often.

      Yeah, no argument here. This subject is difficult, because we are talking about FG% from locations but FG% doesn’t matter! I confused.

      But to the point. If we assume there is some merit to FG%, Melo’s typically strong FG% indicates that to some degree Melo is formulating that into a strong offense from within the arc. Especially considering that it isn’t as if he scores significantly better at the rim than a lot of wings he is compared to. Which would bolster his FG%.

    110. Doug

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sorry that I don’t feel the need to explain with my own words why FG% is a worthless statistic when these posters could simply click a link at the top of the page, read for ten minutes, so we could talk about other things, like whether ruruland’s forthcoming Nixon: A Most Honorable President or A History of Rush Limbaugh, America’s Humanitarian will make the national bestseller lists.

      That’s not an abrupt and hamfisted segue into your political beliefs. I am sure we are all very impressed by how good of a liberal you are.

    111. TelegraphedPass

      @116 Like, if his penchant for the long two were so detrimental then his FG% should be lower than guys like Pierce and Kobe and other scoring wings. But he’s managed to put together a relatively strong effort in that respect.

    112. Doug

      Let’s keep this to basketball in the future, instead of accusing other of being Republicans.

    113. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Owen:
      Guys that I would rather have going into the playoffs, with notations for ones I am not sure about, leaving injured guys off the list….

      Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Chris Bosh (maybe, maybe not), Andre Iguodala, Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, Luol Deng (maybe, maybe not), Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Dirk, Marc Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lawson, Millsap, Al Jefferson, Kobe, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Steve Nash (in the playoffs?).

      Some of the names you put on this list is just not fair, man.

      Paul Millsap (I like him, but cmon now)?? Al Jefferson?? Josh Smith?? Boozer/Noah/Deng?? Ty Lawson?? CHRIS FREAKIN’ BOSH??? For reals, man??

      I think Blake Griffin is awesome but his D isn’t that great and his offensive game still needs refining – I’m sure in a couple years he’ll be a complete beast. And I think Iguodala v. Melo is a wash.

    114. Ben R

      Again if you’re looking at overall stats you have to look at efg% not fg%, if you’re looking at shots from a specific location like at the rim or from 16-23 feet then fg% is okay, since there is no 3 point shot to skew it, the problem is you cannot compare fg% on 3 pointers to fg% on 2 pointers since 3 pointers are worth more so you have to weigh 3 pointers differently hence efg%.

      Overall Melo is not inefficient, at least not prior to this year, he is just not elite when it comes to 2pt%, 3pt%, efg% or TS%. He is merely above average and happens to shoot a lot. No one is saying he is bad, were just saying he could be better if he adjusted his game a little and he is not in the class of the LeBron’s, Durant’s and Manu’s of the world offensively and not in the class of the LeBron’s, Kobe’s or Wade’s defensively.

    115. TelegraphedPass

      I wonder what the best option would be in the coming NBA draft for the Knicks. I’ve previously thought shoring up the frontcourt would be most important, but if we have STAT, Jorts, Chandler, and Jerome Jordan (whatever he’s worth) then maybe picking an efficient scoring wing would be better.

      Those of y’all who follow college hoops: Thoughts on Marcus Denmon? He’s been incredibly efficient given his role for Mizzou. He’s small, but an efficient scoring guard who can handle the ball sounds like it could plug a couple holes in the backcourt. Especially if/when JR leaves.

    116. Ben R

      TelegraphedPass:
      @116 Like, if his penchant for the long two were so detrimental then his FG% should be lower than guys like Pierce and Kobe and other scoring wings. But he’s managed to put together a relatively strong effort in that respect.

      His efg% is lower:
      Player — 08 – 09 – 10 – 11
      Melo — 46.9 47.8 48.7 45.3
      Kobe — 50.2 48.8 48.7 46.2
      LeBron – 53.0 54.5 54.1 55.3
      Durant – 51.0 51.4 50.9 54.9
      Pierce — 50.8 53.5 55.1 49.0

      As you can see Melo’s shooting percentages are lower. He is only a little less efficient than Kobe but is a good step less efficient than LeBron, Durant or Pierce. The best scoring wings shoot around 51-54% while Melo shoots around 46-48%.

    117. TelegraphedPass

      @124 Oh yeah. He’s not a great option from deep. I had zero expectation that his eFG% would rank among those names.

    118. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Doug: That’s not an abrupt and hamfisted segue into your political beliefs. I am sure we are all very impressed by how good of a liberal you are.

      Yawn. Do most Republicans defend Nixon’s gross unethical conduct? It was a joke about hagiography, bro.

      What about a joke about Clinton’s blowjob and perjury? Or Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs? I could do those, too. I really don’t care.

    119. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      TelegraphedPass:
      I wonder what the best option would be in the coming NBA draft for the Knicks. I’ve previously thought shoring up the frontcourt would be most important, but if we have STAT, Jorts, Chandler, and Jerome Jordan (whatever he’s worth) then maybe picking an efficient scoring wing would be better.

      Those of y’all who follow college hoops: Thoughts on Marcus Denmon? He’s been incredibly efficient given his role for Mizzou. He’s small, but an efficient scoring guard who can handle the ball sounds like it could plug a couple holes in the backcourt. Especially if/when JR leaves.

      Denmon looks like a stud bench player. I doubt he’ll even be drafted, though. Questions of whether he can be “the Guy” in the NBA, which is silly.

    120. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Doug:
      Let’s keep this to basketball in the future, instead of accusing other of being Republicans.

      What’s wrong with being a Republican? Your pot-shot rhetoric is getting a little stale. If nothing else, I contribute to the dialogue on this site. You just comment on the tone and attitude of others’ posts. Do something.

    121. Juany8

      The TelegraphedPass, I think the point you’re trying to make is that there is value in being able to make a shot at a good rate, even if it’s not an efficient shot. Even though 3′s are more valuable than 2′s, a missed shot is still a missed shot and missed shots tend to lead to more fastbreak opportunities, or possibly more offensive rebounds. FG% measures the player’s ability to simply make the shots he takes, none of the statistics give you a complete measure of value, but it is significant that Carmelo is more likely to simply make a shot than guys like Kobe and Pierce, as his FG% indicates. There are times in the game where simply putting up points in a controlled fashion is valuable, regardless of how many points.

      What Owen and THCJ and the rest of the stats community totally forget about in their analysis is that the only plays that matter are those that increase the probability of a team winning. Maximizing win potential is the only thing that really matters in the NBA, which necessarily means what happens in the 4th quarter is more important than what happens in the first (what would you rather have, a 25 point lead at the end of the first quarter, or a 4 point lead with 5 seconds left in the game?) Player production per quarter is not normally distributed according to their overall average, someone who puts up 10 rebounds a game might be doing so primarily in the first half or against bench players, which would be less valuable than someone getting those same 10 rebounds later in the game where the outcome was at stake.

      Now to be fair, there are statisticians who realize this and don’t act all condescending about their conclusions. Football Outsiders is a great example, unfortunately it’s not about NBA statistics, but it is a valuable look at how analysis should be conducted.

      http://footballoutsiders.com/

    122. nicos

      I not sure why anybody would take TS% by itself all that much more seriously than FG%. Isn’t PPP a better measure of offensive efficiency than TS%- especially if you can separate out passing turnovers from turnovers committed trying to score? Also, the Knicks have two of the top seven PPP guys in the league- Novak at 1 and Chandler at 7- both of whom they try to get the ball to ALL THE TIME, and yet they have the 20th ranked offense. Having a guy with a TS% of 60 and a usage of 10 isn’t nearly as valuable as having a guy with a TS% of 58 and a usage of 30 so why just quote TS% numbers as if it is? The idea that shot creation has no value is just crazy to me.

    123. ruruland

      Ben R: Well if you’re interested in looking at how well Melo scores within the arc you don’t want to look at FG% because that includes 3pt shots so players that shoot lots of 3 pointers will look inefficient. You instead want to look at 2pt%.

      Many of the best defenses have a no three pointers, no layup defense. Let your opponent shoot as many contested two point jumpers as they want, protect the rim and chase off the 3 point line. That is the philosophy of the best defenses in the NBA yet Melo plays right into that by taking lots of contested two point jumpers.

      Your argument doesn’t add up. It’s true that NBA teams do everything they can to eliminate 3s and drives —sometimes the mid-range is all you’re going to get against a good defense. Heavily contested threes as well as drives into traffic aren’t great options either. Sure, it’s fine and dandy to talk about getting shots at the rim — but in order to get there you’re far more prone to turnovers and easy baskets in the other direction.

      Trying to analyze each of those scenarios from an efficiency standpoint is extremely difficult. Anyone can tell you that 3pt shots and layups are the most efficient shots. That’s beyond obvious. The question is how to get those shots, and what is the best offense when the defense can eliminate the good drives and open 3′s.

      I mean, there’s a reason teams double Melo — you know that actually opens up easy 3′s and easy drives by sending teams into rotation. Coaches aren’t stupid. If they didn’t double and tilt, his efficiency would be ridiculous at the rim.. the jumper is the counter to the strong-side tilt….. the passing is the counter to the double team…..

      The advanced stats people tend to dramatically oversimplify these things.

    124. Juany8

      nicos:
      I not sure why anybody would take TS% by itself all that much more seriously than FG%.Isn’t PPP a better measure of offensive efficiency than TS%- especially if you can separate out passing turnovers from turnovers committed trying to score?Also, the Knicks have two of the top seven PPP guys in the league- Novak at 1 and Chandler at 7- both of whom they try to get the ball to ALL THE TIME, and yet they have the 20th ranked offense.Having a guy with a TS% of 60 and a usage of 10 isn’t nearly as valuable as having a guy with a TS% of 58 and a usage of 30 so why just quote TS% numbers as if it is?The idea that shot creation has no value is just crazy to me.

      It’s what happens when you think plotting TS% against Win% is going to give you real insight into how basketball works. There’s unfortunately quite a bit more work that goes into it, and a lot of it is going to involve watching players independently of spreadsheets.

    125. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sorry that I don’t feel the need to explain with my own words why FG% is a worthless statistic when these posters could simply click a link at the top of the page, read for ten minutes, so we could talk about other things, like whether ruruland’s forthcoming Nixon: A Most Honorable President or A History of Rush Limbaugh, America’s Humanitarian will make the national bestseller lists.

      Because those two ideas could be refuted statistically?

      I don’t get it.

      And if you meant anything political, I consider myself quite progressive.

    126. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Of course I didn’t mean anything politically. It’s simply that Carmelo Anthony has never really been an elite shooter. Good shooter, sure, but not elite. And your defense of him is exhaustive; I don’t think Carmelo could play at any low level of play and earn your criticism.

    127. Doug

      Defending Carmelo is the same as defending Nixon or Rush Limbaugh! DOWN WITH THE CARMELO ANTHONY AND HIS SYCOPHANT SUPPORTERS

    128. Matt Smith

      WHAT?! Now #FreeJeromeJordan is getting love?! I was the only one going on about this since mid-season. To prove it, I might be the only one to answer Jon Abbey’s question about three notable plays:

      1) Alley-oop to Shumpert from beyond the three point line early in the season.
      2) Crafty spin-move from the high-post with a left hand finish around two defenders against the Pistons.
      3) Tyson-esque tip-back offensive rebound (not credited), then rebound and putback on the same play against the Blazers.

      I’m probably the only one who remembers these, because I’m the only Knick fan who cares about Jerome Jordan playing. Which is funny, because SEVERAL people had him as their main replacement for our STARTING center last year before Tyson signed on.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: look at what happened the last time this team had a Jamaican 7-footer. (No, I’m not seriously suggesting he’ll be anywhere as close to as good as Ewing). I still scream ‘why is Josh Harrellson in?!?’ every time he gets put in, because I HATE undersized centers (especially since Harrellson hasn’t hit one of his shots since his injury). And while I love that dude’s hustle, cmon… he’s 6’9”.

      He must really not try at practice. But he’s been good in the d-league. I mean, I’m sure he’ll make some Mozgovian boneheaded plays (fouling too much, silly turnovers) at the start, but I think he’d be a serviceable backup center.

    129. TelegraphedPass

      @137 I feel like part of a community knowing you are in on the movement. Jorts is a smarter defender than Jordan, in terms of defending without fouling, but you can’t teach 7 feet. Jerome is also a target for lobs. Everybody love lobs!

    130. jon abbey

      I’m very impressed, Matt. I also was hoping to see more of him this year, but clearly now is not the time. hopefully next year, though.

    131. hoolahoop

      With all the excitement of the knicks possibly moving up to the 6 seed, I’d say be careful for what you wish for. Until last game, Boston has been a buzzsaw since the All-Star break. More to the point, they are knicks killers. I thought the knicks were going to beat them last time they played to set the new pecking order for the future. Same ol same old. Pierce with the daggers.
      I think Boston could be at least as tough as Chicago, and almost as tough to face as Miami. If they win the division (highly unlikely unless Boston loses to the Nets tonight), that’s a different story. I’d expect the knicks to beat Indiana in a best of seven.
      One thing I’ve noticed in the last few weeks is that any team from 1-9 on any given night can be a very tough out, regardless of how the knicks execute. . . . and on the other hand, no one is clearly dominant except for Miami, and they’re on a skid.

    132. daJudge

      Matt, it certainly would be awesome to have another seven footer in the line-up. No doubt. Hopefully his D-Laegue stint will prove his value and we can assimilate him next year.

    133. hoolahoop

      Correction: Just looking at the standings again, if the knicks get the 6 seed they face Indiana. That’s great.
      I think the knicks are much more likely to win a second round facing one of the elites after winning a first round series. Plus, by then, Lin and Amare will be back.

    134. hoolahoop

      Putting in guys with very limited playing time that are prone to turn the ball over in “must win” games is risky business.

    135. JK47

      Jerome Jordan played well in Europe, has played well in the D-League and has played well in the NBA when he’s gotten minutes. He looks like a reasonably fluid player to me, and he makes his free throws, which is an encouraging sign.

    136. TelegraphedPass

      Jerome Jordan update:

      Against the Austin Toros in the first round of the NBA D-League playoffs, Jordan tallied 19 points on 6-6 shooting to go along with 6 boards, an assist, and 4 blocks. Also 5 personal fouls. Sigh.

      He also went 7-8 from the free throw line. Coincidentally, this year for the Knicks he has also gone 7-8 from the free throw line. I wonder how good of a free throw shooter he is. Probably not the 86% those numbers indicate, but looks promising.

    137. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Of course I didn’t mean anything politically. It’s simply that Carmelo Anthony has never really been an elite shooter. Good shooter, sure, but not elite. And your defense of him is exhaustive; I don’t think Carmelo could play at any low level of play and earn your criticism.

      Not true at all. I’ve actually been extremely critical (as much as I really can be) at different parts of his career.

      The way he handled himself the final two weeks of the ’08 season was really unprofessional (the partying), and it was no coincidence he had the worst playoff performance of his career against the Lakers that year .

      That year really turned his career around and he became a much more complete player the next season.

      I’ve been critical of his game this year even.

    138. hoolahoop

      JK47: Jerome Jordan played well in Europe, has played well in the D-League

      I play pretty well down at the schoolyard.

      JK47: and has played well in the NBA when he’s gotten minutes.

      C’mon, you’re kidding, right. “Played well” is stretching it. And all he’s ever seen is garbage time.

      Throwing him out there now, when all games are essentially playoff games, would be like feeding him to wolves. The last thing the coach wants to see is turnovers, without a whole lotta upside.

    139. TelegraphedPass

      hoolahoop:
      Putting in guys with very limited playing time that are prone to turn the ball over in “must win” games is risky business.

      Yeah, again, not saying we SHOULD play him. Just that I would like to see more from him. He looks to be a rotation player in the NBA who has a pulse and is 7 feet tall.

    140. Owen

      “What Owen and THCJ and the rest of the stats community totally forget about in their analysis is that the only plays that matter are those that increase the probability of a team winning.”

      We totally forget about it? Really? I didn’t realize…

      I look forward to reading your analysis of leverage in basketball, write something up and fire it off to the guys at Basketball Prospectus, or post it on APBRmetrics….

    141. TelegraphedPass

      He’s athletic. He rebounds. He blocks shots. He fouls. He’s 7 feet tall. On a team that could use another solid guy in the big man rotation, I’m just curious to see how his pleasant numbers would be affected given more minutes. That’s all.

      I’m not calling for him to get heavy burn at the moment.

    142. TelegraphedPass

      TelegraphedPass:
      He’s athletic. He rebounds. He blocks shots. He fouls. He’s 7 feet tall. On a team that could use another solid guy in the big man rotation, I’m just curious to see how his pleasant numbers would be affected given more minutes. That’s all.

      I’m not calling for him to get heavy burn at the moment.

      *Could use another guy in the rotation next year. Is more what I’m trying to say. If Novak and/or Jeffries leave, it would be nice to know we have someone who can play 8-10 minutes of productive basketball for the team.

    143. hoolahoop

      TelegraphedPass:
      He’s athletic. He rebounds. He blocks shots. He fouls. He’s 7 feet tall. On a team that could use another solid guy in the big man rotation, I’m just curious to see how his pleasant numbers would be affected given more minutes. That’s all.

      I’m not calling for him to get heavy burn at the moment.

      Whose minutes is he going to take? Obviously, not TC’s, and obviously not JJ’s if you’re in a dogfight of a game.

    144. DRed

      With respect to Jordan, it’s true he only gets to play in garbage time. But the thing is he plays well in garbage time. Not everyone does. It doesn’t mean he’d be good if he got real burn, but it suggests it’s worth giving him a shot. Now may not be the time to give it to him, but at some point during the regular season he should have been given some real minutes to see what he could do.

    145. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I wrote an email to Dre from Wages of Wins Journal, and this is what he said about year-to-year stats correlation:

      “Using a naive correlation (not trying to control for anything else) we find the correlation between last year’s per minute performance and this year’s per minute performance to be 0.78 and find it to be 0.70 in the case where players change teams. So unlike other sports players are much more consistent in basketball.”

      I also got an answer from Dave Berri (through Dre) about using those correlation numbers:

      “In regards to using linear regression:

      The argument appears to be that you can’t use regression to figure out the value of the stats because of player interaction effects. But why not? The regression model simply tells us the link between the box score stats and wins. The interaction issue is about how those box score stats are created.
      To illustrate… people have run this regression in baseball: Wins = f(runs scored, runs surrendered) in baseball. That regression tells us the value of one more run allowed and surrendered. But on the defensive side, everything is interaction effects. So the runs we think a pitcher allowed (via ERA) is not just about the pitcher. It is also about the defenders. But does that invalidate our regression? No, it impacts how we interpret the results. In other words, we have a hard time arguing that the wins a pitcher saves (via his runs surrendered — or lack of runs surrendered) is all about the pitcher.

      Does the same argument apply to the NBA? Pitchers are very inconsistent. So we suspect, player around the pitcher matter. NBA players are more consistent, so we suspect the other players are not that important.”

    146. hoolahoop

      Advanced statistics in the NBA are so prone to error, that even if they were relevant (not to mention the numerous variables that are not taken into consideration) that their value is limited. Yes, they have value, but limited.
      Of course, there’s only a 0.65% chance your going to hear that from guys who make their full time living from creating the stats, and 2.8% chance from guys who do it as a sideline.

    147. JK47

      hoolahoop: I play pretty well down at the schoolyard.

      C’mon, you’re kidding, right. “Played well” is stretching it. And all he’s ever seen is garbage time.

      Throwing him out there now, when all games are essentially playoff games, would be like feeding him to wolves. The last thing the coach wants to see is turnovers, without a whole lotta upside.

      The guy has a freaking .217 WS/48 in the NBA. I’d say he has “played well,” yes. Of course, it’s only 81 minutes and it’s garbage time so caveat emptor and all of that. I’m not saying the dude should be getting NBA minutes right now– I’m glad he’s in the D-League getting some burn. The point I was making that it’s certainly possible in the future that Jordan could possibly be a useful NBA player.

    148. ruruland

      Well, even in the intro to Advanced Stats on PBR it talks about the .7-.8 correlation between a players numbers from year to year.

      I think some players are pretty unique however. Steve Nash is one. The players who play around Steve Nash seem to be that way. I think in some ways Melo is that way, too. There seems like quite a few exceptions around the league where there is significant variance.

    149. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Does the same argument apply to the NBA? Pitchers are very inconsistent. So we suspect, player around the pitcher matter. NBA players are more consistent, so we suspect the other players are not that important.

      One of the most asinine statements I’ve ever heard from someone trying to talk knowledgeably about basketball.

    150. hoolahoop

      JK47: The guy has a freaking .217 WS/48 in the NBA.I’d say he has “played well,” yes.Of course, it’s only 81 minutes and it’s garbage time so caveat emptor and all of that.I’m not saying the dude should be getting NBA minutes right now– I’m glad he’s in the D-League getting some burn.The point I was making that it’s certainly possible in the future that Jordan could possibly be a useful NBA player.

      Agree 100%

    151. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      hoolahoop:
      Of course, there’s only a 0.65% chance your going to hear that from guys who make their full time living from creating the stats, and 2.8% chance from guys who do it as a sideline.

      What does one’s occupation have to do with anything? Bill James was a security guard.

    152. Matt Smith

      To clarify: Agree that Jordan (“the other JJ) shouldn’t get minutes this year. But I’d much rather see what he can do than Harrellson. His ceiling is so much higher.

    153. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      hoolahoop: One of the most asinine statements I’ve ever heard from someone trying to talk knowledgeably about basketball.

      How do you interpret “not that important?” You’re arguing with the numbers, if anything. If the correlation is .78, the correlation is .78. And that’s a naive correlation, which does not account for significant variables like age, contract status, injury, etc. At what point do you believe that players’ productivity is largely a product of individual talent? .80? .85? .90? .99? Never?

    154. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Matt Smith:
      To clarify: Agree that Jordan (“the other JJ) shouldn’t get minutes this year. But I’d much rather see what he can do than Harrellson. His ceiling is so much higher.

      Why shouldn’t he get minutes? You know, there was a good argument for Lin not getting minutes until the injuries/Toney Douglas happened. How good would the Spurs look right now if Popovich hadn’t made Leonard, who is one of their very best players, a starter?

      He hasn’t sucked yet, so why not ride him until he proves otherwise? It doesn’t matter what you see in practice if he is actually productive on the floor.

    155. Z-man

      Owen: Guys that I would rather have going into the playoffs, with notations for ones I am not sure about, leaving injured guys off the list….Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Chris Bosh (maybe, maybe not), Andre Iguodala, Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, Luol Deng (maybe, maybe not), Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Dirk, Marc Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lawson, Millsap, Al Jefferson, Kobe, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Steve Nash (in the playoffs?).

      Do you seriously think that if we traded Carmelo Anthony for any of these players that we’d have a better chance to win? Wow.

      Do you mean the “career” Melo or the Melo of the last 10-15 games?

      Do we agree that Melo has played at an elite level during the recent stretch of games, each of which is a virtual playoff game?

      I understand that the general opinion of you or THCJ will not be swayed by a stretch of 10-15 games. If he continues to play this way on both ends of the court, would he win you over? Not all players regress to their mean, it is a strong tendency but there are ample exceptions. Once again, I will bring up the Paul Pierce comparison: a completely different set of stats pre and post “big 3″. Melo is in a much more demanding situation, as far as accountability is concerned, than he ever was in Denver. He used his “get out of jail free” card vs. D’Antoni. No more excuses, time to step up. That said, the guy has been phenomenal during the biggest games in this recent stretch, and I’m glad he’s on our side!

    156. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: How do you interpret “not that important?” You’re arguing with the numbers, if anything. If the correlation is .78, the correlation is .78. And that’s a naive correlation, which does not account for significant variables like age, contract status, injury, etc. At what point do you believe that players’ productivity is largely a product of individual talent? .80? .85? .90? .99? Never?

      Okay, in that context it makes more sense (“You’re arguing with the numbers, if anything.”) than the statement “not that important”.

    157. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why shouldn’t he get minutes? You know, there was a good argument for Lin not getting minutes until the injuries/Toney Douglas happened. How good would the Spurs look right now if Popovich hadn’t made Leonard, who is one of their very best players, a starter?

      He hasn’t sucked yet, so why not ride him until he proves otherwise? It doesn’t matter what you see in practice if he is actually productive on the floor.

      How can you compare Lin’s situation with J. Jordan’s, especially considering where we are now in the season? Be serious.

    158. StatsTeacher

      Watching PHO at SA (and watching SA absolutely eviscerate PHO) and Stu Scott during the shitty halftime report “previewed” Knicks/Heat. He gave such great insight as:

      1) NY playing well because Melo can now shoot 3 pointers with accuracy — even had a clip of Melo shooting a 3.

      2) Melo playing great “now that Lin is out of the lineup.” Even said they play poorly together — used game stats all the way back to losing streak under MDA, without mentioning coaching change at all.

      3) Said PHI has tiebreaker over NY even as screen showed (of course) opposite.

      Worst report ever, and very disrespectful of NY. Needless to say no mention of defense winning games or Chandler or anything. Unreal.

    159. StatsTeacher

      League Pass has been worth it. The MIL commentators are so down home as to be hilarious.

      Wonder if MIL will be the same team next year, I thought I read Skiles was on his way out too, yet he has done a great job.

      jon abbey:
      end of IND/MIL now on NBA-TV, Skiles has done an awesome job this year.

    160. Z-man

      So, by my calculations, it would be impossible for us to tie with Milwaukee and lose the tiebreaker, no? Does that make the magic number for us to eliminate Milwaukee 4?

    161. Gorky

      Z-man:
      So, by my calculations, it would be impossible for us to tie with Milwaukee and lose the tiebreaker, no? Does that make the magic number for us to eliminate Milwaukee 4?

      Yeah I think so

    162. Spree8nyk8

      Milwaukee can still win a tiebreak against Philly by beating them on the second to last game of the season. So idk if we are the ones that can eliminate them, I think it comes down to Philly who plays 6 of 7 on the road.

    163. Antwan

      Telegraphed Pass, do you happen to be @megaman on the twittersphere?? I joined the free JJ movement btw and that user, plus LBJ fake account was the only others that posted it. I know I havn’t posted in a while, and was new in the first place, but that was because my desktop broke and this site is a bitch to load the comments and post during a game and when there is high traffic. I made about 15 posts 2 months ago, and havn’t since but have “stalked” this site and the comments section.

    164. TelegraphedPass

      Antwan:
      Telegraphed Pass, do you happen to be @megaman on the twittersphere?? I joined the free JJ movement btw and that user, plus LBJ fake account was the only others that posted it. I know I havn’t posted in a while, and was new in the first place, but that was because my desktop broke and this site is a bitch to load the comments and post during a game and when there is high traffic. I made about 15 posts 2 months ago, and havn’t since but have “stalked” this site and the comments section.

      I am not. The only @megaman account I’ve seen has a grand total of one tweet. I’m slightly more prolific.

    165. jon abbey

      Z-man:
      So, by my calculations, it would be impossible for us to tie with Milwaukee and lose the tiebreaker, no? Does that make the magic number for us to eliminate Milwaukee 4?

      isn’t it the reverse? since we’re three losses ahead but only two losses better in conference record, isn’t it likely that if we ended up tied, we’d have a worse conference record?

    166. Antwan

      TelegraphedPass: Still not me. I’m the guy thirsting over Holly MacKenzie.

      Think I got you, Chilliam Fancyson @Itachill ????? If not, I’m @SuperAntwan. This is pretty comical.

    167. TelegraphedPass

      Antwan: Think I got you, Chilliam Fancyson @Itachill ????? If not, I’m @SuperAntwan. This is pretty comical.

      smh you a narc for real

    168. Antwan

      TelegraphedPass: smh you a narc for real

      I’m common sense retarded. Sorry, I’m not trying to be weird or creepy haha, but just like friendly idk. And I am not a narc btw but I can see why you think so lmao.

    169. Antwan

      theone811:
      can we just win the game against the heat please

      I like that approach. If we can get into the 4th with an 8 pt advantage, we can get LeBrick to toss up garbage, and have Shump-Shump on Wade, and Chandler on Bosh. Getting there may be tricky, but our hot starts at MSG and the roaring crowd, in my belief, can get us to pull the not so upset.

    170. theone811

      well ill be in the crowd at the garden for the battle hopefully we can slay the dragon that chokes in crunch time”MR DECISION”

    171. BigBlueAL

      jon abbey: isn’t it the reverse? since we’re three losses ahead but only two losses better in conference record, isn’t it likely that if we ended up tied, we’d have a worse conference record?

      If Knicks and the Bucks finish tied and one of the Knick losses is vs the Clippers they will finish with same conference record. If all of the Knicks remaining losses are vs East teams the Bucks will finish with a better conference record by 1 game.

    172. BigBlueAL

      After reading some of the last 100 comments on this thread I think we might need Bill Maher to moderate this board lol

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