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Sunday, August 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Sep 30 2013)

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Dream vs. Lynx in W.N.B.A. Finals (Mon, 30 Sep 2013 00:00:48 GMT)
    In a rematch of the 2011 W.N.B.A. finals, the Atlanta Dream will face the Minnesota Lynx for the title.    

  • 32 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Sep 30 2013)

    1. johnno

      A lot of people on this site complain about the Knicks giving away 2nd round draft picks because second round picks are “valuable assets” that good organizations use to draft good players. Here’s something interesting — check out the rosters of the Heat, Bulls, Nets, Pacers and Knicks. Here is a complete list of all of the players who those teams drafted in the second round who are now regular contributors — Lance Stephenson. That’s it. The top five teams in the East have combined to draft a grand total of one guy in the second round who contributes anything to their team, and Stephenson, while a nice player, is hardly a star.

    2. Frank

      Ugh. Isola reporting that Amare had another knee surgery this summer.

      Bargnani trade making a lot more sense now. We don’t have 2 no-D players at PF anymore — really just Bargnani plus 20-30 games of 10-15 minutes from STAT. Feel terrible for the guy.

    3. cgreene

      Do we think that there is any chance that Amare, being the seemingly great guy that he is, will use the opt out to allow the Knicks to dramatically reduce his salary next year if his playing time this year is so limited? I mean he says he wants to win so here’s a real chance to put his $ where is mouth is. Another thing I don’t get is why hasn’t any reporter asked him this question: “Amare, being as you are expected to make $24M next year and you haven’t played a healthy season in 3 years is there any chance you would opt out and renegotiate so the Knicks could use $ to add players to the team and help win a title?” You could ask Melo the same thing. No one does.

    4. KnickfaninNJ

      I just saw some nice news on ESPN

      “The NBA is expected to make a major change to its traditional Finals schedule, ending the 2-3-2 format and returning to the 2-2-1-1-1 game rotation used in all other playoff rounds, multiple sources told ESPN.com.”

    5. Hubert

      johnno:
      A lot of people on this site complain about the Knicks giving away 2nd round draft picks because second round picks are “valuable assets” that good organizations use to draft good players.Here’s something interesting — check out the rosters of the Heat, Bulls, Nets, Pacers and Knicks.Here is a complete list of all of the players who those teams drafted in the second round who are now regular contributors — Lance Stephenson.That’s it.The top five teams in the East have combined to draft a grand total of one guy in the second round who contributes anything to their team, and Stephenson, while a nice player, is hardly a star.

      It doesn’t negate your argument but Chalmers was a 2nd round pick, too.

    6. johnno

      Hubert: It doesn’t negate your argument but Chalmers was a 2nd round pick, too.

      You’re right. I thought that he was late first round. I must have been thinking of Norris Cole.

    7. johnno

      Hubert: It doesn’t negate your argument but Chalmers was a 2nd round pick, too.

      Funny thing is that there are a lot more undrafted guys who are contributors than 2nd round picks — Prigioni, Copeland, Reggie Evans, Haslem, to name just a few.

    8. ephus

      Here is a link to the Isola article:

      http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/stoudemire-surgery-knee-dummer-article-1.1471121

      Additional revelations: (1) Melo had a parially torn shoulder labrum last year and (2) Wallace had a stress fracture not a “sore foot”.

      I cannot imagine a circumstance where Amar’e would opt out of the last year of his deal. Actually, I can think of it, but the Dolan family cannot get Amar’e to opt out and then pay him elsewhere to make up the $20+ million. Strictly verbotten under the CBA.

    9. thenamestsam

      Hubert: It doesn’t negate your argument but Chalmers was a 2nd round pick, too.

      I mean we’re talking about small enough samples here that we could frame it in a lot of different ways. If I put it this way “Each of the top 2 teams in the East from last year relies heavily on a starter that they drafted in the 2nd round” all the sudden it sounds pretty different.

      Either way I think most people recognize that 2nd round picks aren’t super valuable. But they don’t have to be super valuable to make it dumb to throw them away right? I mean even if there’s a 1 in 10 chance of finding a valuable contributor giving those away unnecessarily (and it certainly seems like the Knicks have) isn’t a very smart thing to do. A huge deal? No. But to win a title you have to get things right on the margin as well as on the big moves. Look at the best teams in the league and obviously you will see a lot of the best players in the league but you also see a lot of important bargains and scrap heap pickups. Different teams find those guys in different ways and the Knicks have done a good job identifying them overall in recent seasons but i don’t think that excuses throwing away further opportunities to acquire them.

    10. thenamestsam

      cgreene:
      Do we think that there is any chance that Amare, being the seemingly great guy that he is, will use the opt out to allow the Knicks to dramatically reduce his salary next year if his playing time this year is so limited?I mean he says he wants to win so here’s a real chance to put his $ where is mouth is.Another thing I don’t get is why hasn’t any reporter asked him this question: “Amare, being as you are expected to make $24M next year and you haven’t played a healthy season in 3 years is there any chance you would opt out and renegotiate so the Knicks could use $ to add players to the team and help win a title?”You could ask Melo the same thing.No one does.

      ephus:

      I cannot imagine a circumstance where Amar’e would opt out of the last year of his deal.Actually, I can think of it, but the Dolan family cannot get Amar’e to opt out and then pay him elsewhere to make up the $20+ million.Strictly verbotten under the CBA.

      Agreed. I’d say just in general hoping for someone to do you a favor that costs them $15 or $20 million is a low percentage proposition. It isn’t Amare’s fault that he has gotten hurt and that risk is something the Knicks knew when they signed him to a deal. I wish he would opt out purely because I want the Knicks to succeed, but I certainly don’t think he owes it to the Knicks or anything like that. It would purely be a favor, and that favor would be in return for…what, exactly? The two parties signed a contract and both have lived up to it to the best of their abilities. It hasn’t worked out, but that, as they say, is life.

    11. flossy

      Frank:
      Ugh. Isola reporting that Amare had another knee surgery this summer.

      Bargnani trade making a lot more sense now.We don’t have 2 no-D players at PF anymore — really just Bargnani plus 20-30 games of 10-15 minutes from STAT. Feel terrible for the guy.

      This was apparently a pretty routine maintenance procedure; I wouldn’t get all up in arms about it. Nobody is suggesting that he’ll miss training camp or preseason as a result. Pau Gasol had surgeries on both of his arthritic knees this summer too. I don’t think this changes the outlook on Amar’e (which is admittedly not all that great, but no worse now than last week).

    12. flossy

      It still boggles my mind that people labor under the impression that getting out from under Amar’e's contract would make any difference at this point. We’re so far over the cap now that if we got some magical 2nd Amnesty and used it on him, we’d STILL be over the cap. At best, it would enable us to use the full MLE rather than the mini-MLE, but we’re already getting veterans like Artest, Smith and Udrih at well below market value.

    13. BigBlueAL

      Listening to Steve Mills on Michael Kay show right now and he mentioned that he wants the organization to make better use of analytics.

    14. johnno

      flossy: It still boggles my mind that people labor under the impression that getting out from under Amar’e’s contract would make any difference at this point.

      And it boggles my mind that anyone thinks that a pro athlete would walk away from tens of millions of dollars because he wants to help the team out a little bit.

    15. bobneptune

      I cannot imagine a circumstance where Amar’e would opt out of the last year of his deal.Actually, I can think of it, but the Dolan family cannot get Amar’e to opt out and then pay him elsewhere to make up the $20+ million.Strictly verbotten under the CBA.

      Amar’e need to learn Russian to opt out and sign for 12M/year less :-)

    16. bobneptune

      johnno:
      A lot of people on this site complain about the Knicks giving away 2nd round draft picks because second round picks are “valuable assets” that good organizations use to draft good players.Here’s something interesting — check out the rosters of the Heat, Bulls, Nets, Pacers and Knicks.Here is a complete list of all of the players who those teams drafted in the second round who are now regular contributors — Lance Stephenson.That’s it.The top five teams in the East have combined to draft a grand total of one guy in the second round who contributes anything to their team, and Stephenson, while a nice player, is hardly a star.

      Assets are assets. Your limiting the discussion to 4 teams gives a perverse out come.

      One could field a pretty good team from Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, Monta Ellis, Nikola Pekovic, Gortat, Varejao, Carl Landry, Glen Davis, Omer Asik, Chandler Parsons, etc.

      2nd rounders aren’t the be all and end all, but they do have some non zero value and shouldn’t be given away

    17. Brian Cronin

      I just saw some nice news on ESPN

      “The NBA is expected to make a major change to its traditional Finals schedule, ending the 2-3-2 format and returning to the 2-2-1-1-1 game rotation used in all other playoff rounds, multiple sources told ESPN.com.”

      Awesome! Some actual good news. :)

    18. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin: Awesome! Some actual good news. :)

      Agreed. It’s a long overdue change. Having a different format for the finals didn’t make an iota of sense any more, if it ever did. Plus we can now save the absurd discussion (which I’ve participated in every year I think because that’s the kind of fool I am) about who the format change helps/hurts. That alone is a major, major victory.

      Plus I think we’re more likely to steal the finals in a game 6 in MSG then we are to be able to close it out on the road or win it in 5 games (Yes, even in my fantasies the Knicks don’t end up with home court in the finals). So good news for the 2013 Knickerbockers as well.

    19. Z

      BigBlueAL:
      Listening to Steve Mills on Michael Kay show right now and he mentioned that he wants the organization to make better use of analytics.

      Yeah, but it’s not the advanced metrics you’re used to. It’s off the court analytics, to evaluate harassment in the workplace so as to better define what crosses the line.

    20. Z-man

      I hated the 2-3-2 format from the get-go. It was particularly egregious when home court was not decided by record.

      My problem with it was that in a lopsided series, it didn’t matter; In a close series, one team had virtually no chance of winning the series at home. I have always thought that the Knicks might have won in 1994 with the 2-2-1-1-1 format. Whatever, I’m glad it’s gone.

    21. citizen

      johnno:
      A lot of people on this site complain about the Knicks giving away 2nd round draft picks because second round picks are “valuable assets” that good organizations use to draft good players.Here’s something interesting — check out the rosters of the Heat, Bulls, Nets, Pacers and Knicks.Here is a complete list of all of the players who those teams drafted in the second round who are now regular contributors — Lance Stephenson.That’s it.The top five teams in the East have combined to draft a grand total of one guy in the second round who contributes anything to their team, and Stephenson, while a nice player, is hardly a star.

      On the other hand, the story is very different if you look at the top two from the West. Off the top of my head, Ginobili, Gasol, and Danny Green are all 2nd round picks, and there may be more on the Spurs…

    22. Z-man

      Right, but the truth is that most 2nd rounders never become NBA rotation players. If trading them improves your team, then its a good gamble. Let’s see how Bargnani plays for us before we pine over these picks.

    23. BigBlueAL

      flossy: “Steve Mills is great at analytics!” –Steve Mills

      Hey Im not saying he is the new Darryl Morey, far from it. But at least it seems like evaluating advanced stats is becoming a priority for the franchise. Who knows how good Mills and whoever else he hires are at evaluating this type of stuff but at least it seems like they are getting on board with this type of analysis which is good to see.

      Mills did go to Princeton so I assume he is pretty smart at least lol.

    24. Z

      The post Isiah knicks (2008-present) have been using advanced analytics. D’Antoni used to refer to eFg, Walsh had a sheets disseminated before games to players. Grunwald signed advanced stat god Tyson Chandler as a franchise cornerstone. I don’t care what Berman says, Mills wasn’t really brought in because of his advanced analytics.

    25. Jack Bauer

      BigBlueAL: Hey Im not saying he is the new Darryl Morey, far from it.But at least it seems like evaluating advanced stats is becoming a priority for the franchise.Who knows how good Mills and whoever else he hires are at evaluating this type of stuff but at least it seems like they are getting on board with this type of analysis which is good to see.

      Mills did go to Princeton so I assume he is pretty smart at least lol.

      Let’s just hope Mills does a little better than last time he was at the helm….

    26. johnno

      citizen: On the other hand, the story is very different if you look at the top two from the West. Off the top of my head, Ginobili, Gasol, and Danny Green are all 2nd round picks, and there may be more on the Spurs…

      Ginobili is the only 2nd rounder drafted by the Spurs who is in their rotation. They drafted him in 1999 and had to wait three years before signing him. They signed Green out of the CBA; he was drafted and cut by Cleveland. Gasol wasn’t drafted by the Grizzlies — he was acquired in a trade for his brother. The point that I was making was that there are a whole lot more efficient ways of getting rotation players than drafting a guy in the second round and waiting for him to develop (or even show up in the US like Manu) — like trades and signing free agents and vet minimum guys. (e.g., Copeland, Prigioni, K-Mart, Udrih, MWP, Leslie, Tyler, Aldrich, etc., etc.) There are a whole lot more of them on contending teams than second rounders who were drafted by that team.

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