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Friday, July 25, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Oct 22 2012)

  • [New York Post] Amar’e to miss Knicks’ opener due to knee cyst (Mon, 22 Oct 2012 03:41:58 -0500)
    SYRACUSE â?? The Knicks will open the season without the cursed Amar’e Stoudemire, and it is now fair to question whether his starting status eventually will be altered.
    Stoudemire’s Knicks tenure is fast becoming a risky proposition with yesterday’s turn. An MRI exam revealed a ruptured popliteal cyst…

  • [New York Post] Ex-’Cuse Melo for enjoying college homecoming (Mon, 22 Oct 2012 03:36:36 -0500)
    SYRACUSE â?? Carmelo Anthony spent yesterday practicing with the Knicks at the Carrier Dome, then hanging out and lifting weights with Syracuse players at the “Melo Center” he helped fund.
    Anthony’s visit to his alma mater for tonight’s preseason game against the Sixers should be capped by a wonderful…

  • [New York Daily News] Ouch! Amar’e to miss start of regular season (Mon, 22 Oct 2012 04:37:09 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire will miss up to five regular season games, including the anticipated season opener in Brooklyn, after an MRI revealed a ruptured cyst behind his left knee.

  • [New York Daily News] Emotional Melo back in Syracuse with Knicks (Mon, 22 Oct 2012 00:00:52 GMT)
    Who says Carmelo Anthony never looks to make the big assist? When Syracuse University asked, Anthony delivered in a big way to his alma mater – a $3 million check to kick off the fund-raising efforts for a $19-million, state-of-the-art basketball complex where the Orangemen men’s and women’s teams practice.

  • 32 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Oct 22 2012)

    1. Frank

      I know it’s been sort of fashionable to bash on Raymond Felton, calling him an average point guard (or worse), chucker, fat, etc. but someone (Zman?) wrote a while back that other than the first half of 11-12 when he was admittedly in terrible shape, he’s actually played pretty well going back to 2009-10. If you look at his #s, this is what he has averaged since 09-10 if you take out pre-ASB 2011-12:

      Per 36:
      15.5 points, 7.3 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 2.7 TOs, 1.6 steals, TS 52.5

      If you put these #s into B-R’s season finder, in the last 20 years, there have not been that many players that have been able to put up these numbers — the A/TO ratio disqualifies many of them:

      CP3 x 5 seasons
      Billups x 2 seasons
      Gary Payton x 3 seasons
      Tim Hardaway x 2 seasons
      Marbury x 1 season
      Nash x 1 season (in Dallas)
      Mark Price
      Terrell Brandon (the healthy version)
      Kenny Anderson
      Nick Van Exel x2 seasons
      Jay Humphries (who?)

      And if you add in steals (not enough fields in B-R), you remove all of Van Exel’s, Billups’s, Marbury’s, and Nash’s seasons, which leaves you with CP3, Hardaway, Payton, Price, Terrell Brandon, and Kenny Anderson as the only 6 point guards in the last 20 years who have put up #s like Felton has averaged in the last 2.5 seasons.

      This is of course an artificial list in in that it’s tailored to what Felton does, and it’s also per-36 and not “advanced”, but if you think about it, what’s the purpose of the PG position? Pass the ball, don’t turn it over, and score it occasionally at not too terrible an efficiency.

      There, don’t we all feel better now?

    2. Frank

      btw, I know this is preseason, but should anyone be concerned the Lakers threw out their starting 5 for 32-36 min each against Sacramento and lost, with Sac playing only Cousins more than 22 minutes? I have no doubt they’ll get it together, but we might be in for a rough first 15-20 games until they figure each other out.

    3. thenamestsam

      Frank:
      btw, I know this is preseason, but should anyone be concerned the Lakers threw out their starting 5 for 32-36 min each against Sacramento and lost, with Sac playing only Cousins more than 22 minutes? I have no doubt they’ll get it together, but we might be in for a rough first 15-20 games until they figure each other out.

      I think time to gel is part of their issue, and it will get better with time, but their lack of depth is also a big part of the story, and that part is going to be harder to alleviate. All of the starters played 32+ minutes and all of them were 0 or positive in +/-. The bench guys on the other hand…
      -5 in 8 minutes for Duhon
      -11 in 18 minutes for Jamison
      -16 in 15 minutes for Ebanks
      -14 in 15 minutes for Meeks
      -6 in 8 minutes for Sacre
      -9 in 7 minutes for Blake

      I know single game +/- is hugely flawed, but every starter positive and every bench player negative basically tells the story. I’m not sure there’s a weaker bench in the league than what they throw out there, which is part of the reason they’re going to struggle more than most people expect in the regular season. When all the starters are going ~40 minutes a night in the playoffs that team is going to look dynamite. When they’re all going 30-35 that team is going to look pretty beatable. It will be helped if the starters eventually dominate the minutes they play, but no team playing Meeks, Jamison and Ebanks for 45 minutes a night is sniffing 70 wins.

    4. jon abbey

      they have Jordan Hill at some point too, he looked good in the playoffs last year (still a dreadful draft choice, though).

    5. StatsTeacher

      Sacto has some athletes IMHO. I listen to Sacto talk radio since the Bay Area is 100% Giants and Niners right now (for good reason). Aaron Brooks played great last night, Cousins is an absolute mystery, but Sacto has some impressive, big dudes. They will surprise people — why in the hell did they take The Jimmer? He played some last night, but he won’t be in the rotation.

    6. thenamestsam

      jon abbey:
      they have Jordan Hill at some point too, he looked good in the playoffs last year (still a dreadful draft choice, though).

      Hill will help some, but the only box he’s really checking is “better than Robert Sacre”. I haven’t seen enough from him to pencil him in as even an average back-up big. If you’re relying on him as a crucial component of your bench you’ve got problems. And besides I don’t see many minutes for him. Dwight and Pau are going to play 36-38 a piece, and Jamison is going to get at least some of the leftovers as a stretch 4. I’m not sure how he gets more than 8 or 10 minutes a night.

    7. Jafa

      @ Frank,

      We’ll feel better about Felton when he has proven over 20+ games that he can best Lin’s production at the position last year. When TS%, AST%, TOV%, PER etc. look not only better than his career averages but equal to or better than Lin’s #s, we’ll all jump for joy.

    8. jon abbey

      thenamestsam: Hill will help some, but the only box he’s really checking is “better than Robert Sacre”. I haven’t seen enough from him to pencil him in as even an average back-up big. If you’re relying on him as a crucial component of your bench you’ve got problems. And besides I don’t see many minutes for him. Dwight and Pau are going to play 36-38 a piece, and Jamison is going to get at least some of the leftovers as a stretch 4. I’m not sure how he gets more than 8 or 10 minutes a night.

      written by someone who should have been watching the postseason as opposed to looking at box scores. Hill blossomed last postseason, if he keeps playing like that, they’ll find minutes for him considering the rest the bench.

    9. jon abbey

      Jafa:
      @ Frank,

      We’ll feel better about Felton when he has proven over 20+ games that he can best Lin’s production at the position last year.When TS%, AST%, TOV%, PER etc. look not only better than his career averages but equal to or better than Lin’s #s, we’ll all jump for joy.

      seriously? who cares, let’s just see how he fits in with the team. “Lin’s production at the position last year” involved a lot of games where he had huge usage and a lot of DNPs down the stretch, not sure what the point of comparing guys in decidedly different situations is.

    10. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I don’t get the point of comparing Felton to Lin, either. They’re different players. I wouldn’t want Felton to try the stuff Lin was doing, since Felton is such a poor shooter. Felton will succeed or fail on his own merits.

    11. thenamestsam

      jon abbey: written by someone who should have been watching the postseason as opposed to looking at box scores. Hill blossomed last postseason, if he keeps playing like that, they’ll find minutes for him considering the rest the bench.

      Wow, no need to be a straight up asshole. We’re just talking hoops. I watched Hill play. He did some nice things, but he still has a long way to go in my opinion, especially defensively. He’s a workhorse on the glass, and he showed a bit more offensive range in the playoffs than he had in the past, but it was 200 total minutes. I’m not reading too much into it yet.

      I see a very poor defender and great rebounder who still has offensive upside but hasn’t really put it all together on offense for any significant stretch in his career.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey is basically Isiah Thomas as a blogger. His analysis is about as persuasive as the average Bleacher Report writer’s.

      “Did you even watch the games?”

      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    13. JK47

      If you look at his #s, this is what he has averaged since 09-10 if you take out pre-ASB 2011-12:

      Sorry, but this is a cherry-pick. Sure, if you ignore a lot of games where he was bad, he starts to look… well, not as bad. The assist numbers in that cherry-pick are inflated by Felton’s stint with the SSOL Knicks and the 3-point shooting numbers are inflated by the outlier .385 Felton shot in his last season in Charlotte. His career numbers, which came over 20,000 NBA minutes, don’t look a lot different from his overall numbers last season.

    14. ruruland

      JK47:
      If you look at his #s, this is what he has averaged since 09-10 if you take out pre-ASB 2011-12:

      Sorry, but this is a cherry-pick.Sure, if you ignore a lot of games where he was bad, he starts to look… well, not as bad.The assist numbers in that cherry-pick are inflated by Felton’s stint with the SSOL Knicks and the 3-point shooting numbers are inflated by the outlier .385 Felton shot in his last season in Charlotte.His career numbers, which came over 20,000 NBA minutes, don’t look a lot different from his overall numbers last season.

      How much does league deflation and his weight factor in?

      Look, in two years, on three different teams mind you, Felton was a good poInt guard.

      Is it simply coincidence that those three teams had more offensive talent than any Felton had in Charlotte previously?

      Felton is not a good scorer; is it possible that offensively deficient teams that Felton played on asked him to shoot more than he should?

      And is it possible that on a team with a good amount of offensive talent and playmaking, Felton’s usage will decrease, his percentage of good shots increase, and his playmaking remains as good or better than any second tier pg in the NBA?

    15. jon abbey

      thenamestsam: Wow, no need to be a straight up asshole. We’re just talking hoops. I watched Hill play. He did some nice things, but he still has a long way to go in my opinion, especially defensively. He’s a workhorse on the glass, and he showed a bit more offensive range in the playoffs than he had in the past, but it was 200 total minutes. I’m not reading too much into it yet.

      I see a very poor defender and great rebounder who still has offensive upside but hasn’t really put it all together on offense for any significant stretch in his career.

      to me it seemed pretty clear that he broke through in the playoffs and will be a productive bench player going forward. 200 minutes in the playoffs is a lot, those minutes should be weighted 10 times as much as regular season minutes at least.

    16. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      jon abbey is basically Isiah Thomas as a blogger. His analysis is about as persuasive as the average Bleacher Report writer’s.

      “Did you even watch the games?”

      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

      heh, I spent the last week getting inducted into the Columbia Athletic Hall of Fame while you were at home touching yourself to Dave Berri’s idiocy, but keep on keeping on, it’s always amusing.

    17. jon abbey

      and of course it’s not persuasive to you, as I believe that your twin gods of efficiency and rebounding are overemphasized in many currently available metrics. sometimes I’m right, like about Landry Fields being wildly overrated, and sometimes I’m not, same as you and everyone else.

    18. thenamestsam

      jon abbey: to me it seemed pretty clear that he broke through in the playoffs and will be a productive bench player going forward. 200 minutes in the playoffs is a lot, those minutes should be weighted 10 times as much as regular season minutes at least.

      Hm. I don’t agree with this at all. I mean in terms of importance, sure 10x as important. But in terms of being predictive of future play? I’m extremely dubious about that. Randomness exists just as much in the playoffs as in the regular season and a guy can go on a meaningless hot streak just as much then.

      Our very own Jerome Jordan comes immediately to mind as someone who had a hot playoff run that had people saying he “turned a corner” only to go right back to the player he had always been. Daniel Gibson is another guy who “broke out” in the playoffs in his first year and then was never nearly that successful for an extended period again.

    19. jon abbey

      Jerome James, you mean, and that is a good example. to me it looked like Hill turned a corner, but you’re right that if everyone’s healthy, he probably won’t get so many minutes to show it since most other teams play so small these days.

    20. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: heh, I spent the last week getting inducted into the Columbia Athletic Hall of Fame while you were at home touching yourself to Dave Berri’s idiocy, but keep on keeping on, it’s always amusing.

      HAHAHAHAHAHAH

      Wow, you must be an excellent basketball analyst. You were a fencer, right? Yeah, same thing.

      I wouldn’t care if you were inducted to the UNC athletics hall-of-fame for basketball. One of their members won, I don’t know, five league MVPs and six Finals MVPs, a dozen-or-so All-NBA selections and some other stuff about gold medals at international competitions. Then he became a basketball executive and drafted Kwame Brown with the #1 pick. Do I need to explain the value of this li’l anecdote?

      No one gives a shit about your physical prowess or your past glories. It’s completely inconsequential to your abilities as an analyst. Even when ruruland does his cherry picked, anecdotal, and insubstantial eye-test analysis, he’s actually trying to give evidence, even if it seems to me more about confirmation bias than discovering truth. When you give analysis, you say (without fail), “Those numbers can’t be wrong because they fail to agree with what I saw.” And honestly, pal: no one cares what you think.

      Enjoy your commemorative plaque, though! Congrats!

    21. jon abbey

      thanks! I’ll continue to chime in when I see fit, and I think that my perspective can lend a nice contrast to the lockstep reliance on deeply flawed metrics that you seem to be so in love with. also, you’re really fun to mock and I love how easy it is to piss you off. so, yep, I’ll be here until Mike kicks me off.

      also, as I’ve said before numerous times, the format of this site doesn’t lend itself to well researched and thoughtful analysis, as everything gets buried after a day or two.

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Good. That makes both of us! I’ll continue to post about the statistics that occasionally produce an “outlier” target for criticism, and you continue to fellate Shumpert like he’s a hybrid Gary Payton/Clyde Drexler… only better.

      I’m confident that a team built even naively on WP48 would crush your eyetest team, and I’m only sorry that we won’t get to see that happen. But the Nuggets are close enough, and it’ll be fun to see them tear up the West, so long as George Karl doesn’t somehow trade for Al Harrington and ruin their potential again.

    23. jon abbey

      heh, let me fix that for you….

      “I’ll continue to post about the statistics that produce lists that look like they were created with a dartboard, and you continue to praise Shumpert like he’s the most exciting rookie NY has seen in decades.”

    24. thenamestsam

      jon abbey:
      Jerome James, you mean, and that is a good example. to me it looked like Hill turned a corner, but you’re right that if everyone’s healthy, he probably won’t get so many minutes to show it since most other teams play so small these days.

      Blargh, Jerome James. Immediately before I posted the comment I was like oh wait…Jerome Jordan was actually the Jamacain dude from last year. Then I thought about it, remembered it was Jerome James, and somehow still typed the wrong name. Which I also almost did about 3 times in writing this comment. Those two names are just tangled in my brain.

    25. Z-man

      I love it when abbey and jowles go at it at the hissyfit level. PS congrats on the HOF induction, jon, even if it doesn’t translate into skill as a b-ball analyst nearly as well as Jowles’ Ph.D.

    26. jon abbey

      thanks! it’s obviously a low profile sport (we got more attention this week than most of the time we were in school), but the basketball equivalent would have been the Larry Johnson/Stacy Augmon UNLV team which easily won a NCAA title then returned everyone, but in our case, add in a recent-Kentucky-type recruiting class and the fact that we actually repeated as national champions, pretty sure it was the best collegiate fencing team ever and I was co-captain both years.

      also, I’m operating under the assumption THCJ isn’t even a full professor until I see proof otherwise. I don’t have much respect for the world of academia in general, but even they have standards. :)

    27. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey:

      also, I’m operating under the assumption THCJ isn’t even a full professor until I see proof otherwise. I don’t have much respect for the world of academia in general, but even they have standards. :)

      your comments are normally below average, but this one hurts my eyes, I’m sorry.

      “I don’t have much respect for the world of academia in general” goes a long way to show how incredibly arrogant you are.

    28. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida:
      “I don’t have much respect for the world of academia in general” goes a long way to show how incredibly arrogant you are.

      I’m definitely arrogant, but I stand by that statement. academia is insular, self-reinforcing, and generally unconnected to the real world. much like most of Dave Berri’s analysis, actually. :)

      thanks, Brian and ruru! here is a pic from Saturday’s homecoming football game just after we all got introduced on the field at halftime, that’s me with the finger which is the same one we used back in the day:

      http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8473/8106976833_c9482e5aae_b.jpg

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