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Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Oct 08 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Amar’e basks in ‘Dream’ date with Hakeem (Mon, 08 Oct 2012 02:39:25 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire spent time learning the Dream Shake from the master himself, Hakeem Olajuwon, with an eye on getting a fair shake in Mike Woodson’s offense. With Carmelo Anthony dominating the ball, there are fewer pick-and-roll sets run for Stoudemire.

  • 48 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Oct 08 2012)

    1. d-mar

      Couple of random observations for Columbus Day:

      – Anyone know why the Knicks don’t play any preseason games at home this year? As a season ticket holder, I’m thrilled, as those were always a loss leader, but just curious

      – Over the last 2 days, the NY Times sports section has run articles about the Nets and none about the Knicks (Howard Beck covers the Nets now? What’s up with that?) Is it possible they’ve made a conscious decision to put all their focus on the Nets this year because of the Brooklyn move? Doesn’t really make sense to me, I’m sure their readers (the few that are left) are mostly Knicks supporters.

    2. er

      supposedly to ensure that this phase of renovations are completed

      didnt you get the memo that the nets are the best team in ny now

      d-mar:
      Couple of random observations for Columbus Day:

      – Anyone know why the Knicks don’t play any preseason games at home this year? As a season ticket holder, I’m thrilled, as those were always a loss leader, but just curious

      – Over the last 2 days, the NY Times sports section has run articles about the Nets and none about the Knicks (Howard Beck covers the Nets now? What’s up with that?) Is it possible they’ve made a conscious decision to put all their focus on the Nets this year because of the Brooklyn move? Doesn’t really make sense to me, I’m sure their readers (the few that are left) are mostly Knicks supporters.

    3. thenamestsam

      er:

      didnt you get the memo that the nets are the best team in ny now

      Are we really going to spend all year crying about how no one loves us anymore? That’s going to be really tiresome.

      It’s not about best team, it’s about best story. The Nets have a revamped contender in a new building just opened to packed Jay-Z concerts in a new borough. That’s a sexy story.

      The Knicks lost their most interesting story from last year and added a number of veteran players from whom they’re hoping to get solid (but unremarkable) players. From a media perspective they added no really big names to a mediocre team from last year. The biggest name was arrested for drunk driving right after he signed. There really isn’t any obvious angle there.

    4. d-mar

      @3 I have no problem with the media giving the Nets attention, I was just a little miffed to have zero Knicks coverage for 2 straight days from the largest newspaper in the NY metro area.

      And btw, that “sexy story” will get old pretty fast as the season wears on.

    5. Nick C.

      Considering the Yankees are in the playoffs, and it being an October weekend you’re lucky there was more than a blurb on the NBA at all.

    6. thenamestsam

      d-mar:
      @3 I have no problem with the media giving the Nets attention, I was just a little miffed to have zero Knicks coverage for 2 straight days from the largest newspaper in the NY metro area.

      And btw, that “sexy story” will get old pretty fast as the season wears on.

      I hear ya. Considering the normal quality of newspaper coverage it’s usually not the worst thing to have no coverage, but I understand being a little annoyed about having nothing to read while you sip your coffee or whatever.

      I think you’re right that the sexy story will wear off as the season goes along, but right now I don’t think it can’t be doubted that there’s far more excitement for the Nets than the Knicks. Nets gear is everywhere and there was a huge buzz at Barclays when I went for one of the concerts. Hardcore Knicks fans are clearly fired up for the season to start given that we have our best team in more than a decade, but the casual fans are way more hyped on the Nets side of thing.

    7. Eternal OptiKnist

      Whether or not the sexy story fades will be a matter how the team performs once the season starts. If they do well, they will continue to get headlines. Worry not, the Knicks will still dominate the headlines oncew we get rolling; you just hope its for the right reasons. If we falter again this year AND the nets do well, we’ll feel a media wrath never before seen for this team (and it would be well-deserved). I definitely have big hopes for this team, but nobody pays that much attention to the NBA (especially in this town) for some time. I think thats a big reason i was bummed about Lin gone…was really good for the NBA in general in relation to the other major sports.

    8. er

      Relax guy, i was answering his question i am ready for the season to start as much as anyone and i dont care what the media says anymore

      thenamestsam: Are we really going to spend all year crying about how no one loves us anymore? That’s going to be really tiresome.

      It’s not about best team, it’s about best story. The Nets have a revamped contender in a new building just opened to packed Jay-Z concerts in a new borough. That’s a sexy story.

      The Knicks lost their most interesting story from last year and added a number of veteran players from whom they’re hoping to get solid (but unremarkable) players. From a media perspective they added no really big names to a mediocre team from last year. The biggest name was arrested for drunk driving right after he signed. There really isn’t any obvious angle there.

    9. Gideon Zaga

      Fret not fellow Knick fans just like the Clippers last year came in trying to challenge the top dog Lakers here in LA and even got their catch phrase “lob city” trademarked and all. At one point there were more cameras in their locker room when ther played the Lakes. But look at them now they are back to being little brother. Don’t worry “Hello Brooklyn” would soon be back where it belongs, yeah and that’s New Jersey. And just saying NJ makes me shiver, Sheesh!

    10. Gideon Zaga

      Glad to see you’re back my friend. And we have to catch up for that poker game soon, or might have to do it online since I’m never in one place for long or stuck with a doctor for too long.

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      Whether or not the sexy story fades will be a matter how the team performs once the season starts.If they do well, they will continue to get headlines.Worry not, the Knicks will still dominate the headlines oncew we get rolling; you just hope its for the right reasons.If we falter again this year AND the nets do well, we’ll feel a media wrath never before seen for this team (and it would be well-deserved).I definitely have big hopes for this team, but nobody pays that much attention to the NBA (especially in this town) for some time.I think thats a big reason i was bummed about Lin gone…was really good for the NBA in general in relation to the other major sports.

    11. Gideon Zaga

      Also just got caught up on the thread from the last 2 days, very insightful stuff. Glad knickerblogger is back. I guess Congrats to Abbey for the break through of missed shots having value. I always believed that leaving shots on the table as Landry did hurt our offensive efficiency put back or not. I’m glad shumpie doesn’t shy away from these opportuinities bad shot or not. After all we have Tyson down there shouting shoot the ball son I got you.

    12. thenamestsam

      er:
      Relax guy, i was answering his question i am ready for the season to start as much as anyone and i dont care what the media says anymore

      No offense intended. The ratio of stupid arguments:reasonable debate spikes this time of year.

    13. jon abbey

      actually, here is a better way to state my point:

      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

    14. Nick C.

      I can agree with that, to a point. Usually that argument got tortured, in particular in connection with Allen Iverson’s forays into the paint, to the point that everything good that happened was attributed to the drivee.

      Sometimes these arguments work and sometimes, witness the magical freeing up of perimeter shooters and each other caused by Zach and Eddy that never was, sometimes they don’t.

    15. thenamestsam

      jon abbey:
      actually, here is a better way to state my point:

      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

      My perspective: this is all obviously true. However the original conversation surrounded Shump, and I don’t think it really applies to him. He certainly wasn’t drawing intentional double teams, and I certainly didn’t think he was breaking down the defense consistently in a way that might lead to easier put backs (like people think about DRose for example).

      It seems to me that the argument that Shump is more valuable than his offensive numbers suggest is pretty flawed. I think he’s exactly the kind of guy where the eye test can fail you. His shooting form looks good and he shoots it with so much confidence that if I didn’t keep track and you asked me how he shot at the end of each game I think I would consistently overestimate his percentage.

      It seems like the argument that he’s better than his percentages rests on the idea that there is some additional value to taking shots “in rhythm” as opposed to passing up open shots, even if you miss the shot. This seems far from self-evidently true to me.

    16. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      actually, here is a better way to state my point:

      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

      It’s weird that we have to discuss whether space even matters on a basketball court as opposed to trying to figure out how to quantify it. The biggest failing of Berri and co isn’t that their stat is flawed, it’s that they’re so desperate to defend it that they don’t spend any time trying to improve upon their work. Instead of writing an article every other day about how points per game sucks and NBA coaches are stupid, they could be trying to figure out how to incorporate shot locations and assisted % into their offensive efficiency models. Instead of trying to defend their system when it spits out Landry Fields and Kenneth Faried as super stars, they could be analyzing why their system is spiting out such flawed evaluations. Oh well, it is kind of fun to mock them, just read an article recently predicting the Wolves could win 57 games lol!

    17. er

      I think you are correct. Basketball is more complex than baseball which is the godfather of advanced statistics. We surely do not have definitive defensive stats and some of the offensive stats are skewed. Carmelo and Derrick Rose are great examples of why these stats will not give you the full worth of ALL nba players.

      jon abbey:
      actually, here is a better way to state my point:

      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

    18. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      But you’re still assuming that those interaction effects are great enough to warrant ASSUMING that Carmelo adds value beyond the box score. It’s still a baseless assumption, an argument for “common sense,” when really we could just as easily assume that most NBA G/SF players will draw help when driving to the hole. You have nothing to support your assertion that Carmelo IS better than his numbers suggest, yet you still claim that it’s true. And that’s what I disagree with.

    19. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      But you’re still assuming that those interaction effects are great enough to warrant ASSUMING that Carmelo adds value beyond the box score. It’s still a baseless assumption, an argument for “common sense,” when really we could just as easily assume that most NBA G/SF players will draw help when driving to the hole. You have nothing to support your assertion that Carmelo IS better than his numbers suggest, yet you still claim that it’s true. And that’s what I disagree with.

      But you assume shot creation doesn’t matter to make your evaluations. I might not be able to conclusively prove that Melo is a superstar, but I can conclusively prove that the numbers you use to conclude he is mediocre are meaningless.

      Let’s look at WP’s philosophy for determining offensive and defensive value, for instance. On defense, Berri argues that defense is mostly a team activity between 5 players, and thus he assigns team values of defense directly to players based on minutes player. FYI, that means Amar’e contributed pretty much the same as Chandler on defense for the Knicks last year (cue laugh track). On offense, he assumes that every action is the direct result of an individual. So if a team runs a play with all 5 players moving and touching the ball, only 1 player really gets any credit for scoring or missing a shot, even in situations when the player taking the shot was the least important person in the play. Novak standing in a corner doesn’t get him open, the pick and roll that drew his defender away does.

      So to conclude, Berri tries to argue that defense is literally nothing but interaction effects between a team, but that there are no substantial interaction effects on offense. And he wonders why Kenneth Faried types aren’t getting max contracts…

    20. Frank

      Juany8, the problem with arguing with THCJ is that he is already of the opinion that his is the right choice, the null hypothesis, so that any statement that disagrees with his worldview must meet his arbitrary level of statistical significance, or else he is again proven right — never mind that while Berri has some interesting things to say, he is definitively NOT right about many things.

      No amount of arguing will ever change THCJ’s fundamental problem of perspective, so I’ve basically stopped trying.

      Re: jonabbey’s statement that has stirred up that hornet’s nest again, probably a better way to think of it is that all missed shots are not the same. Melo shooting a long-2 5 seconds into the shot clock when all there are is defenders under the hoop is NOT the same as Derrick Rose drawing 3 defenders and flipping up a shot while Noah/Asik/Gibson etc. are crashing the offensive boards. Like I think someone in another thread wrote, each non-fouled shot attempt has 3 possible outcomes – a make, a miss with the D getting the board, and a miss with the O getting the board. The spatial analysis stuff that Kirk Goldsberry writes about pretty much makes it clear that different shot locations lead to different offensive rebounding percentages.
      http://courtvisionanalytics.com/where-do-rebounds-go/

      Goldsberry also touched on the DRose phenomenon when he mentioned that the ORR on Derrick Rose shots (41%) is MUCH higher than the league average (26% although he didn’t mention what the ORR is for any other driver of the ball in the Bulls’ offense, so his point was sort of blunted).

      The natural extension of this is that Rose draws so much attention and he takes his shots in such a distribution that it frees up the frontcourt guys to get O-rebounds. It passes the common sense test, but we just don’t have access to the kinds of data you need to “prove” it. Which in THCJ’s mind means that the data doesn’t exist so I’m a moron.

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: But you assume shot creation doesn’t matter to make your evaluations. I might not be able to conclusively prove that Melo is a superstar, but I can conclusively prove that the numbers you use to conclude he is mediocre are meaningless.

      Let’s look at WP’s philosophy for determining offensive and defensive value, for instance. On defense, Berri argues that defense is mostly a team activity between 5 players, and thus he assigns team values of defense directly to players based on minutes player. FYI, that means Amar’e contributed pretty much the same as Chandler on defense for the Knicks last year (cue laugh track). On offense, he assumes that every action is the direct result of an individual. So if a team runs a play with all 5 players moving and touching the ball, only 1 player really gets any credit for scoring or missing a shot, even in situations when the player taking the shot was the least important person in the play. Novak standing in a corner doesn’t get him open, the pick and roll that drew his defender away does.

      So to conclude, Berri tries to argue that defense is literally nothing but interaction effects between a team, but that there are no substantial interaction effects on offense. And he wonders why Kenneth Faried types aren’t getting max contracts…

      Yet still the individual player numbers, the meaningless box score data, remains consistent over time, from team to team and coach to coach. So my hypothesis is that most players of a similar type generate a relatively similar effect on “floor spacing.”

      And I don’t believe that the data doesn’t exist, Frank. I believe that WP48 is better than your eyetest and common sense test. That’s all.

    22. danvt

      On the last thread. The Starks shot in 94 is the one I thought ofalso. A player breaks down the defense leaving a big in position to get a put back. Seemed reasonable enough if not world changing. I didn’t think of it, Jon Abbey did and said some of Shumps misses might have fit the bill. Then THJC called him a name and I thought that was beneath as statistically astute a brute as he. I said as much and Flossy accused me of having a man crush.

      Fun posting. Thanks a lot. See y’all in hell.

    23. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Yet still the individual player numbers, the meaningless box score data, remains consistent over time, from team to team and coach to coach. So my hypothesis is that most players of a similar type generate a relatively similar effect on “floor spacing.”

      And I don’t believe that the data doesn’t exist, Frank. I believe that WP48 is better than your eyetest and common sense test. That’s all.

      We’ve been over this, the consistency of the data doesn’t prove it’s validity. Proving that shooting percentage stays consistent over time says NOTHING about whether shooting percentage should be the main determinant of offensive value. Same with every single stat collected in the box score.

      Also, you clearly missed what Frank said, the data for testing whether a player has an effect on his teammates’ Offensive Rebounding exists in the sense that these things are events actually happening on a basketball court. They’re just not available freely online for us to access and read through. So unless you believe that the box score keeps track of every meaningful event in a basketball game (in which case, explain charges), the only person who’s ignoring data and sticking blindly to preconceived beliefs is you

    24. jon abbey

      danvt:
      On the last thread.The Starks shot in 94 is the one I thought ofalso.A player breaks down the defense leaving a big in position to get a put back.Seemed reasonable enough if not world changing.I didn’t think of it, Jon Abbey did and said some of Shumps misses might have fit the bill.Then THJC called him a name and I thought that was beneath as statistically astute a brute as he.I said as much and Flossy accused me of having a man crush.

      Fun posting.Thanks a lot.See y’all in hell.

      not to defend those two doofuses too much, but pretty sure the man crush line meant me and my man Shumpie.

    25. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I said it was the dumbest thing I’d ever read about basketball: that somehow a missed attempt and a putback has the same value as a made shot, even if the outcome happens to be the same. I stand by that.

      And Frank, don’t tell me that I can’t change my mind. And it doesn’t mean that the effect can’t happen to a small degree. Even if it does, what percentage of Rose’s scoring attempts are drives? And what about Carmelo’s? And how many of those “bad positioning” situations are a result of it being Rose or Carmelo and not some other supremely athletic player like Shannon Brown or whatever, since almost all of the players in the NBA (at least the ones under 6’8″) are ridiculously fast and able to score the basketball via a drive (the difference between the best shooters in the league and the league average is like, 1 extra made shot in 10 attempts: this is, as I’ve said, virtually indistinguishable to the eyetest)? And until we show that this logical argument’s propositions are true (that individual players can significantly affect ORB% in their teammates, that eFG% of those players increases, etc.), why bother making any kind of conclusion beyond, “This might be possible”? What makes you believe that defensive players see non-superstars drive and think, “Oh, this guy’s not D. Rose; I can hang back on this one”?

      And Rose’s teammates’ inflated ORB% could have nothing to do with Rose himself and have everything to do with having Noah and other excellent rebounders on his team. I think it’s confirmation bias if you attribute it to Rose without evidence beyond the anecdotal.

      I’m not saying it absolutely cannot happen. I’m saying that until you back it up with data, I view it as conjecture.

    26. Brian Cronin

      actually, here is a better way to state my point:

      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

      Sure, I never had a problem with that argument. I only had a problem with suggesting that that was something Shump often did last year to explain why Shump was not really so bad offensively. He did not. He was still very valuable due to his defense (often one of the three most valuable players on the team behind Melo and Chandler or Lin and Chandler while Melo was hurt), but offensively he was not good at all. If you were to argue it for Melo, you’d have something. You didn’t. You argued it for Shump.

    27. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin: Sure, I never had a problem with that argument. I only had a problem with suggesting that that was something Shump often did last year to explain why Shump was not really so bad offensively. He did not. He was still very valuable due to his defense (often one of the three most valuable players on the team behind Melo and Chandler or Lin and Chandler while Melo was hurt), but offensively he was not good at all. If you were to argue it for Melo, you’d have something. You didn’t. You argued it for Shump.

      fair, to an extent, but I meant it as more of a general statement as to why I don’t take most basketball stats too seriously, not Shumpert-specific, although of course I could see how people could take it like that.

      anyway, the above is a more considered version of my point, I generally don’t spend much time trying to put this kind of thing into words as it seems pretty obvious to me.

    28. daJudge

      The NY Times and the Nets–editorial board probably believes (perhaps accurately) that Net’s fans will be more inclined to vote Democrat and for President Obama. The more folks that read about the Nets will also be exposed to their own brand of propaganda. On Shump, after reading all the numbers cited, I guess my own subjective impressions were a bit off. I get that. Nevertheless, I still think a two needs to shoot the ball when he has a decent opportunity to do so (cf, Fields). Particularly with a rookie, whether the ball goes in may not be the acid test. As an aside, if he shot a better percentage, would the shots have been better (as shots per se)?

    29. flossy

      jon abbey: not to defend those two doofuses too much, but pretty sure the man crush line meant me and my man Shumpie.

      Yup, never meant to insult anyone but you, and the idea that Iman Shumpert is a good–or really, anything but a bad–offensive player, because of the possibility (total conjecture) that his missed shots are disproportionately rebounded by his own teammates (as if this differentiates him from any other SG who takes too many long jump shots off the dribble or throws up wild layups that miss). The fact of the matter is that “Shumpie” was a very bad offensively player last year, and citing his missed attempts as a positive is the very definition of grasping at straws. The condescending retorts that anyone who disagrees just doesn’t grasp the profundity of your point is just icing on the cake.

    30. flossy

      Brian Cronin: Sure, I never had a problem with that argument. I only had a problem with suggesting that that was something Shump often did last year to explain why Shump was not really so bad offensively. He did not. He was still very valuable due to his defense (often one of the three most valuable players on the team behind Melo and Chandler or Lin and Chandler while Melo was hurt), but offensively he was not good at all. If you were to argue it for Melo, you’d have something. You didn’t. You argued it for Shump.

      Precisely. The argument was deployed only in support of the player whose offensive ineptitude is least excused by it.

    31. Z-man

      flossy: The fact of the matter is that “Shumpie” was a very bad offensively player last year

      I don’t agree that Shump was a “bad offensive player” last year. Look at pre and post all-star game splits (virtually the same amount of minutes) He was bad in the first half of the season, but in the second half he actually played adequately on offense, shooting .433/.374/.754 from the field, from 3 and from the FT line. He also committed only 41 turnovers in the second half vs 70 in the first half.

    32. jon abbey

      sometimes guys are better than their numbers (the numbers that we have access to anyway), and to me it’s often enough that the oublicly available numbers become often irrelevant (as if one season UZR ratings in baseball were even less reliable).

      I watched Iman Shumpert play pretty much every single minute that he did last year, and if he can come back as if the knee injury never happened, he most certainly has All-Star potential. all of the tools are there. his level of energy is almost unmatched in the league (this is where the Tony Allen comparison is good), he’s a defensive gamechanger like few perimeter players in the league already (and that was without much respect from the officials), but I think his offensive potential is all there too (drives, fast break, mid-range pulliup, 3 point shooting), it’s just a question of putting the pieces together consistently. he’ll probably never be especially efficient, but if he can play with that level of energy for 35+ minutes per game, he most certainly has the ability to be one of the top 5-6 SGs in the game in a year or two.keeping up that level of energy for 35+ minutes night in night out is tough, though, another aspect of Melo that probably isn’t fully appreciated. when a 21 year old takes on Derrick Rose head to head in a nationally televised game (April 8) and outplays him, the potential is there.

      but the knee makes it all moot right now, he might never be the same. Keyon Dooling was incredible as a not-used-enough rookie on the Clippers, running the break off the bench and tomahawking dunks from the lane if no one picked him up (and since he had a young Odom and Miles running with him, they often didn’t), then he started to have leg problems and he could never elevate like that again. hopefully Shumpie (yes, Shumpie, fuck you) will get all of his athleticism back, otherwise we’re even older than it seems now.

    33. H20

      Acl injuries aren’t the career killers they used to be, Baron Davis in college, Crawford, Kyle lowry, Bonzi wells are guards that recovered pretty well after their ACl injuries.

    34. Juany8

      I’ve always thought of Shumpert as Tony Allen with a jumper and some playmaking ability, once he reaches his most likely potential. I think that is a damn fine player, although All-Star might be stretching it. The tools are certainly there, but he has to improve dramatically in decision making and develop several real moves off the dribble. I’m not that optimistic, but honestly I think I’d still rather have Shumpert than Jeremy Lin, I’ll take the rare defensive game changer with some offensive game (beyond simply making a high percentage of his shots lol)

    35. BigBlueAL

      Having alot of guys in their late 30′s hasnt hurt the Yankees this season so the Knicks might be alright!!

    36. H20

      Juany8:
      I’ve always thought of Shumpert as Tony Allen with a jumper and some playmaking ability, once he reaches his most likely potential. I think that is a damn fine player, although All-Star might be stretching it. The tools are certainly there, but he has to improve dramatically in decision making and develop several real moves off the dribble. I’m not that optimistic, but honestly I think I’d still rather have Shumpert than Jeremy Lin, I’ll take the rare defensive game changer with some offensive game (beyond simply making a high percentage of his shots lol)

      I always thought Shumpert had Igoudala type potential, not quite as efficient an offensive player but a defensive stopper who could be a second or third option on a great team.

    37. yoda4554

      jon abbey:
      there is value in drawing a second defender, whether it’s before an offensive move is made or as a shot is attempted. this value is not measured by any individual stats except as part of the oft-mocked (and admittedly noisy) +/-. this is one reason Carmelo Anthony has more value than the Berri-boys think, again just as one example.

      This isn’t a good argument in any of its practical applications (other than the vague argument that interaction effects sometimes occur in basketball). Recall how lots of people used this argument when we acquired Anthony, saying “Hey, Amare’s going to be even more awesome now, because Melo will draw double teams!” and how, instead, Amare got significantly worse?

      The reason for that is because “drawing double teams” is just a subset of spacing (considered broadly), and drawing an extra defender 15 feet from the basket creates less spacing than posing a legitimate shooting threat from 25 feet away. Melo’s refusal to play that far out and Shumpert’s poor distance shooting, especially as wing players (part of why Melo was much better at the 4), limit their ability to disrupt the overall defense. If you want to talk about evidence of holistic overall effects on the offense, it’s probably not coincidence that the two players whose +/- effects on the offense were most positive (as per basketballvalue) were Novak (who was the best shooter in the league last year) rather than Melo and Smith (who was treated as a great shooter, even though his performance last year didn’t justify it) rather than Shumpert. (Incidentally, +/-, for whatever it may be worth, says the most underrated Knick last year was Fields, and the worst, by far, was Stoudemire.)

    38. BigBlueAL

      After tonight’s Yankee game I really cant wait for the Knicks to start, at least I dont expect them to win all the time and am used to seeing them lose stupid games.

    39. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      After tonight’s Yankee game I really cant wait for the Knicks to start, at least I dont expect them to win all the time and am used to seeing them lose stupid games.

      The Yankees lost because Melo can’t hit in the clutch

    40. Frank

      BigBlueAL:
      After tonight’s Yankee game I really cant wait for the Knicks to start, at least I dont expect them to win all the time and am used to seeing them lose stupid games.

      I don’t have time to watch a lot of the Yankees nowadays, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen Nunez look good at the plate. And that’s the guy they wouldn’t put in the trade to get Cliff Lee?

      @39 yoda – great post. Totally agree re: Amare. I think even his box score #s underestimate how awful he was at the beginning-middle of last season, and his defensive +/- numbers have been truly awful here the last few years. Would be interesting to see what his #s looked like post-ASB last year, and especially post-Woodson when it really looked like he was (a little more) committed on the defensive end.

      What are the chances Hakeem worked with him on defense? Probably zero or else I’m sure we would have heard about it.

      Meanwhile, sounds like there’s a lot of good buzz about John Shurna. I know youtube clips are not a substitute for actual game tape, but the dude sure looks like a player. We need all the 44% 3 point shooters we can get. Especially if Brewer is healthy to start the year, I think our need for shooting is much greater than our need for another perimeter wing defender, even with Shump hurt. Between JR, Brewer, and Kidd (against the slower 2s) we should be ok until Shump gets back.

      Anyone catch Jamie O’Grady (used to be lohudblogs guy) twitter a few days ago saying that Shump is WAY ahead of schedule? Here it is:

      “Heard that @I_Am_Iman’s recovery from ACL surgery is welllllll ahead of the schedule that’s been reported. And reports were favorable.”

      would be great if we could get him back in December but only if healthy. I’m looking forward to the Felton/Shump/Brewer/TC/Camby Big Defensive Stop lineup.

    41. Juany8

      Yoda, you got your interaction cause and effect backwards. Novak wasn’t the best +/- player because he was so good for the offense, he was the best +/- player because he didn’t have to deal with the early season pupu platter of TD, Mike Bibby, and Landry Fields, and Bill Walker as our main guard rotation (Shumpert was frequently injured)
      When you don’t have to play with the worst guard rotation of all time (I dare anyone to find a worse rotation) your offense tends to be better, regardless of who else is on the floor. Even Baron Davis and JR Smith were a monster upgrade over the initial rotation, and of course Shump improved as the year went along.

      As far as Melo and Amar’e, I fail to see how playing Melo caused Amar’e to miss a bunch of mid range jumpers. Or how Amar’e was supposed to be running a pick and roll when Chandler was setting all the screens and Amar’e was needed for spacing. Melo and Amar’e don’t complement each other perfectly, but it’s Chandler who screwed up Amare’s efficiency by forcing him to play as a stretch 4 the year he hit a career low on jumpers lol.

    42. jon abbey

      I love that people are blaming Nunez for last night when he singlehandedly created one of their two runs (or at least three of the four bases, almost any non-Trout runner would have still been on second after the Jeter hit).

    43. Nick C.

      Nunez seems to have become the whipping boy all season. Imagine if he had the errors and grounders bouncing off his glove that Jeter has this series.

    44. Frank

      lol – I barely watched any of the game last night, was watching my Jets put up a decent fight on ESPN instead. But still – just feels like he never looks good at the plate.

    45. BigBlueAL

      As usual Arod is getting most of the blame for the loss last night. Although to be honest I dunno what the hell Girardi is doing keeping him batting 3rd/4th especially against RHP. Sadly its gotten to the point with Arod where you can honestly make the case that Chavez should start vs RHP instead of Arod. Look at their splits, Chavez this year had an OPS almost 200 pts higher vs RHP than Arod.

      We know if Torre was still manager Arod would probably be batting 8th right now lol

    46. jon abbey

      everyone mocks that, but Torre was right to do it at the time from the perspective of optimizing his lineup (not from the perspective of messing with A-Rod’s fragile little psyche), and Girardi would be right to move him to 7th or 8th now (I said this coming into the series).

      Ichiro hitting second against LHP is kind of silly too, putting all your over the hill Hall of Famers at the top of a lineup is not an efficient strategy. thankfully Andruw Jones isn’t on the roster, or he might be hitting ahead of Cano too. :)

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