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Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, May 21 2012)

  • [New York Times] Sports of The Times: What Price Glory in Olympic Basketball? Glad You Asked (Mon, 21 May 2012 05:54:04 GMT)
    When USA Basketball invited pros to play in the Olympics, it invited an inevitable debate about whether to pay them for their services.

  • [New York Times] Game 4: Heat 101, Pacers 93: N.B.A. Playoffs — Wade and James Bounce Back to Help Miami Tie Series (Mon, 21 May 2012 05:30:07 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade and LeBron James led Miami’s explosive third-quarter comeback against the Pacers, combining for 70 points as the Heat rallied from an 8-point halftime deficit.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Playoffs — Lakers on Brink, Frustrated by 4th-Quarter Woes (Mon, 21 May 2012 05:30:08 GMT)
    After a late collapse in Game 4 reminiscent of their Game 2 fade, the Lakers trail the Thunder, 3-1, and are looking for answers to avoid elimination.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Close Out Clippers to Sweep Series 4-0 (Mon, 21 May 2012 08:01:41 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs are on to the Western Conference finals, along with their 18-game winning streak and 8-0 mark in the playoffs.

  • [New York Times] Heat Wave: James, Wade Combine for 70 in Heat Win (Mon, 21 May 2012 07:40:59 GMT)
    As the clock ticked down to a precious few seconds, LeBron James threw his right arm around Dwyane Wade’s neck and pulled his teammate close.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Sweep Clippers, Advance to West Finals (Mon, 21 May 2012 06:40:35 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs steamrolled into the NBA Western Conference finals after a 102-99 win over the Los Angeles Clippers on Sunday gave them a clean sweep of their seven-game series.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Rally to Beat Clippers, Win Series (Mon, 21 May 2012 06:42:23 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs mowed down another opponent, using their guile under pressure to close out another perfect playoff series.

  • [New York Times] Heat Overpower Pacers to Tie Playoff Series (Mon, 21 May 2012 02:23:07 GMT)
    LeBron James and Dwyane Wade combined for 70 points as the Miami Heat recovered from back-to-back defeats to grind down the Indiana Pacers 101-93 on Sunday and level the NBA’s Eastern conference semi-final at 2-2.

  • [New York Times] James, Wade Combine for 70 as Heat Win Game 4 (Mon, 21 May 2012 02:28:29 GMT)
    The coveted NBA championship, the one LeBron James needs to validate everything, was vanishing.

  • [New York Times] Ex-NBA Star, Olympian Bob Boozer Dies at 75 (Mon, 21 May 2012 00:11:14 GMT)
    Bob Boozer was a star in college, an Olympic gold medalist and an 11-year professional who finished his playing career with an NBA championship.

  • [New York Post] Lin agent: Knicks deal no dunk (Mon, 21 May 2012 02:57:45 -0500)
    Free agency is 5 1/2 weeks away, but Jeremy Lin’s agent already is setting the groundwork for what could be a complicated negotiation.
    Roger Montgomery, in a rare interview, told The Post nothing is assured regarding Lin’s Knicks future, despite interim coach Mike Woodson’s declaration the…

  • [New York Post] No China trip in fall (Mon, 21 May 2012 02:24:22 -0500)
    Last month, NBA commissioner David Stern said preseason games will be staged in the Chinese cities of Shanghai and Beijing this October.Despite Jeremy Lin’s friendship with Shanghai Sharks owner Yao Ming, the Knicks will not be selected as one of the teams playing in China, The Post has…

  • 90 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, May 21 2012)

    1. er

      Ian actually happy the heat won. I think I am beginning to hate the pacers more than the heat, led by my distaste for fake tough guys lance Stephenson and Danny granger

    2. JC Knickfan

      For sake of Knicks, I don’t want Lebron to win. Imagine the amount pressure on him if they don’t win this year. If the Knicks meet the Heat next year playoff and hopefully it’s in conference final, I think better for if LBJ still have this monkey on his back.

    3. er

      I’m with u on that I just want them to beat indy

      JC Knickfan:
      For sake of Knicks, I don’t want Lebron to win. Imagine the amount pressure on him if they don’t win this year. If the Knicks meet the Heat next year playoff and hopefully it’s in conference final, I think better for if LBJ still have this monkey on his back.

    4. thenamestsam

      er:
      I’m with u on that I just want them to beat indy

      I don’t think anyone is beating San Antonio, so I wouldn’t worry too much about Lebron getting off the schneid this year. A couple thoughts on that game:

      I know he didn’t hit a jumper to win it, or shoot the ball on every fourth quarter possession, but to me that just shows how inherently limited our usual definitions of “clutch” are. Throwing up a 40-18-9 with that level of defense in a must-win road playoff game is extremely, extremely clutch.

      And the craziest thing to me was that it really seemed like that was effectively Lebron’s talent level for that game. Compare it to, for example, the game this year where Deron dropped 38 on us. He shot 8-14 on 3s where half of them were crazy step-back jobs. He obviously played great, but he also had a ton of randomness go his way. It didn’t feel that way for Lebron yesterday. He wasn’t especially hot with shot, and god knows his assist total wasn’t inflated by his teammates being hot. He was a little lucky on rebounding the ball as a number seemed to bounce right to him, but it really looked for most of the game yesterday like he could throw up those numbers any time he needed to. It seemed like almost exclusively a product of his mentality.

      On that note, it bears mentioning that Lebron is still only 27 years old. For as many times as it seems like we (meaning the basketball world) have already tried to summarize his career, endlessly cataloging his strengths and weaknesses he is still younger than Jordan was when he got his first title. And on days like yesterday it’s hard not to think that the first one is going to be by far the hardest for him, and if he ever fully realizes how to harness the level we saw yesterday and bring it out whenever he needs it, he might get a few before it’s all said and done.

    5. Owen

      “For as many times as it seems like we (meaning the basketball world) have already tried to summarize his career, endlessly cataloging his strengths and weaknesses he is still younger than Jordan was when he got his first title.”

      So true. Needs to lose the mouthpiece though.

    6. er

      Lol @ mouthpiece….but yes that boy is goood

      Owen:
      “For as many times as it seems like we (meaning the basketball world) have already tried to summarize his career, endlessly cataloging his strengths and weaknesses he is still younger than Jordan was when he got his first title.”

      So true. Needs to lose the mouthpiece though.

    7. Frank

      This series is so interesting – basically in order for Miami to win a game, both Wade and Lebron have to have superhuman games and one other player needs to step up. Haslem was just huge at the end of this game.

      I am not sure that both Wade and Lebron can keep this up though. 40-18-9 and 30-9-6 are not sustainable numbers, even for these two. And even if they do – the amount of energy they are expending this series does not bode well for the rest of playoffs for them. You can bet that both Doc and Pop will be running those two off 100000 screens and pressuring them every possession of every game to take their legs.

    8. JC Knickfan

      @4

      Jordon won his first title in seven season at 27yr. This is LBJ 9th season and also 27. He hasn’t shown same mental fortitude as MJ. If LBJ can found his correct groove with team, (like when takeover the game) then “us” as Knicks fan could be in deep doodoo. Going through 90′s losing to Bulls every years was tough thing to swallow. Does anyone want go through that with Miami?

      Yes – Charles Smith was fouled.

    9. Frank

      Owen:
      “For as many times as it seems like we (meaning the basketball world) have already tried to summarize his career, endlessly cataloging his strengths and weaknesses he is still younger than Jordan was when he got his first title.”

      So true. Needs to lose the mouthpiece though.

      a little misleading since Lebron has already played 9 seasons at age 27 and Jordan only 7. Check out these stats though – these two are ridiculous:

      http://bkref.com/tiny/I6BcC

      It does bring up an interesting comparison though.
      LBJ and Garnett are the only two players to have played 26K minutes by the age of 27. If you look at KG’s career, he basically peaked at age 27, had 2 more very very good seasons after that in MIN, had one outlier awesome season his first season in Boston, but has been on a decline since then otherwise. His minutes/game have decreased since going to boston to <32 per game.

      MJ had two distinct peaks to his career, but he played much more of a midrange game after he came back from his baseball career. His decline clearly started probably around 1997 after about 32K regular season minutes + 7K playoff minutes, so about 40K minutes.

      I would argue Kobe probably peaked around age 27-28 and through sheer force of will has slowed his decline – don't think anyone would argue that he is declining though. So Kobe started slowing down after about 28K reg season minutes + 5K playoff minutes, or around 33K minutes.

      LBJ has already played about 32K combined minutes, and he is averaging about 3500 combined reg+playoff minutes per season. In addition, he is MUCH bigger than either LBJ or MJ and so his body takes a bigger pounding. Given Wade's age + injury troubles, LBJ's window may start closing after this or next season.

    10. JC Knickfan

      @9

      LBJ has not swoon evident of decline yet and he is in his Prime year next year. I agree fathertime always get you, but LBJ prime years coincides w/ Melo. As Miami decline so will the Knicks big 3.
      Also what stopping Miami from trading Wade or Bosh and retooling with LBJ? Unlike Amare contract, they are still tradable.

    11. cgreene

      It’s funny. Stats project that CP3 is a superior player to Melo and he is. He’s won 3 playoff series to Melo’s 2. But he is the superstar who wants to win and Melo is the selfish player who only cares about stats. Goes to show what being a better communicator in the media will do for your career reputation.

    12. thenamestsam

      JC Knickfan:
      @4

      Jordon won his first title in seven season at 27yr.This is LBJ 9th season and also 27.He hasn’t shown same mental fortitude as MJ. If LBJ can found his correct groove with team, (like when takeover the game) then “us” as Knicks fan could be in deep doodoo. Going through 90?s losing to Bulls every years was tough thing to swallow. Does anyone want go through that with Miami?

      Yes – Charles Smith was fouled.

      Jordan’s first title was in the 90-91 season, and he turned 28 in February of ’91, so it was his age 27 season, but he was actually 28 when he won the title. Regardless it’s not that critical a distinction. My main point was just that our society has trended more and more towards instant judgement. People have been trying to close the book on Lebron’s career since about his 4th year, but my point was that it’s possible that there are still a lot of chapters left to be written. Remember that plenty of people were saying that Jordan didn’t know how to win when he was 27.

    13. Owen

      Not sure what you mean here. Chris Paul is a lot better than Melo. Agreed. There is really no comparison in terms of playing ability.

      You think Paul’s reputation should have taken a hit for forcing his way out of New Orleans, an org which went bankrupt while he was there?

      Not sure how similar the analogy is to Melo’s situation.

      Also, find the sports guy interview with Paul and ask yourself if it doesn’t make sense that the media loves this guy. One of the smartest, most interesting guys in the nba in my book.

      cgreene:
      It’s funny.Stats project that CP3 is a superior player to Melo and he is.He’s won 3 playoff series to Melo’s 2.But he is the superstar who wants to win and Melo is the selfish player who only cares about stats.Goes to show what being a better communicator in the media will do for your career reputation.

    14. Kikuchiyo

      Does anyone else think that LeBron’s body may age a bit more rapidly than the shooting guards and light forwards he is so often compared to? That’s a big boy there, and I could see his weight slowing him down a little in the years ahead.

      I dislike the Heat and will root hard for any teams that play them. But I’m not a hater. That was an incredible display last night. Kudos to LeBron.

    15. johnlocke

      You forgot tough as hell, extra competitive- will punch you in the nuts (literally) to win. I want guys like that on the team…Shumpy closest to having that psychological fire on the current team in my view.

      Owen:
      Not sure what you mean here. Chris Paul is a lot better than Melo. Agreed. There is really no comparison in terms of playing ability.

      You think Paul’s reputation should have taken a hit for forcing his way out of New Orleans, an org which went bankrupt while he was there?

      Not sure how similar the analogy is to Melo’s situation.

      Also, find the sports guy interview with Paul and ask yourself if it doesn’t make sense that the media loves this guy. One of the smartest, most interesting guys in the nba in my book.

    16. Z

      Frank: a little misleading since Lebron has already played 9 seasons at age 27 and Jordan only 7.

      LeBron has played 31 more playoff games, which I suppose can be interpreted either way depending on one’s personal taste for LBJ…

    17. Frank

      Owen:
      Also, find the sports guy interview with Paul and ask yourself if it doesn’t make sense that the media loves this guy. One of the smartest, most interesting guys in the nba in my book.

      lol – this is the equivalent of “subjective” analysis of basketball playing. “He just LOOKS good on the court!”.

      There is no question in my mind that Melo suffers from an inability to use the media to his advantage. I’m not sure if he just doesn’t put the effort into managing his image, doesn’t care, or what. But this is a large part of why I think he has been so vilified in the media – he allows other people to define him. Obviously his “hero-ball” tendencies make him an easy target, but LOTS of players play hero-ball – it’s just not called hero-ball when THEY do it. But for Melo, it’s a character flaw.

      Owen: Not sure how similar the analogy is to Melo’s situation.

      You’re right – it’s not similar at all. Melo wanted to use his bargained-for right to sign with another team AFTER his contract was over. CP3 (who I love as a player), forced himself out of New Orleans with A FULL SEASON left on his contract. All the MeloDrama was concocted by people not named Carmelo Anthony.

      I’ve said before and I’ll say it again – Melo gets treated very unfairly in the media, at least compared with others in the same position. Until DH12 really made it ridiculous with his flip-flopping, he didn’t get the same treatment as Melo. D-Will caused the resignation of Jerry Sloan, and got very little flak for it.

      I think Melo completely misplayed his situation (he should’ve strategized to allow the knicks to give up LESS for him – but that is a failing on Dolan’s part far more than Melo’s) but no one should blame him for doing WHAT HE HAD THE RIGHT TO DO.

    18. thenamestsam

      Kikuchiyo:
      Does anyone else think that LeBron’s body may age a bit more rapidly than the shooting guards and light forwards he is so often compared to? That’s a big boy there, and I could see his weight slowing him down a little in the years ahead.

      I think how Lebron should be expected to age is a sort of fascinating topic, and given that he’s the best player in the league and one who plays for an Eastern Conference contender, one that is obviously relevant to the Knicks. The guys he is most compared to, Kobe and Jordan both became more adept in the mid-range to compensate for their declining athleticism, but jump-shooting has never been Lebron’s strength, and I personally doubt that any amount of work will make it one. I’ve seen it speculated that because he is so muscular and has such large hands that it’s hard for him to find consistent form. Whatever the reason his struggles at the line make it hard for me to imagine that he’ll ever be deadly consistent in the mid-range.

      The most natural evolution would be for him to start playing inside more. While his speed and quickness will probably deteriorate somewhat, his strength should continue to be elite, he has already shown that he can dominate at the 4, and losses in quickness won’t be as big a deal since he’ll obviously still have elite quickness for a big man. He has shown off some good post moves at times this year, and if he keeps improving in that category he could become an elite low-post scorer who could make you pay for doubling more than anyone.

      However while it’s most natural I’m not sure it’s what Lebron wants. He has never gone to the post as much as people expect, and I think he really thinks of himself more as a PG than a PF. Is he willing to change that? Remains to be seen.

    19. ess-dog

      sidestep:
      New interview with D’Antoni:

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/jack_mccallum/05/21/dantoni.knicks/index.html##?sct=nba_t2_a3

      Trading for Melo was really the beginning of the end for D’Antoni. I still don’t see how he fits Mike’s system after watching them try over and over. Melo would never be optimized and D’Antoni’s system would always be bastardized. Plus,without a passing big (Chandler and Amare) things don’t work as well, which is why Diaw was so good next to Amare.

      And it’s lunacy that he never got an above average point guard during his tenure with the Knicks! Until Lin.

      Oh well. The MDA experiment is over in nyc.

    20. johnlocke

      We had 2 above average point guards (based on their play as Knicks)… Raymond Felton, who we later traded as part of the Melo deal, and Billups (who we amnestied to get Chandler). The Knicks offensively, post the Melo trade were a top-tier offensive team…just really bad on defense. One could argue that our decision to amnesty Billups and get Chandler is what really did him in. We could’ve gotten a cheaper defensive center or defensive PF and then gotten a better point guard, once Billups’ contract was up in 2013 (Chris Paul?). I’m glad we have Chandler, but the notion that we could enter the season with Toney Douglas as the starting PG in a team coached by D’Antoni was just ridiculous. Going into this year, at least we have Lin which if he stays the same is a meaningful upgrade over even the Toney from last year. I’m not holding my breath for Amare to learn to play defense, or post-up moves over the summer….if he regains his efficient mid-range jump shooting touch, that would be HUGE for the spacing issues on the team.

      ess-dog: Trading for Melo was really the beginning of the end for D’Antoni.I still don’t see how he fits Mike’s system after watching them try over and over.Melo would never be optimized and D’Antoni’s system would always be bastardized.Plus,without a passing big (Chandler and Amare) things don’t work as well, which is why Diaw was so good next to Amare.

      And it’s lunacy that he never got an above average point guard during his tenure with the Knicks!Until Lin.

      Oh well.The MDA experiment is over in nyc.

    21. Frank

      johnlocke: I’m glad we have Chandler, but the notion that we could enter the season with Toney Douglas as the starting PG in a team coached by D’Antoni was just ridiculous.

      In the FO’s defense (it’s a weak defense) – this is what Toney did as a starter in 10-11 (most of these were starts at PG) per-36:

      17.2 points, 7 assists, 3.7 rebounds, on a TS of 65.9.
      These were obviously unsustainable, but my guess is they thought he might come out to 12 points, 5 assists on a TS of 55. (ie. super-average or even a bit below average)

      Instead, he gave us (per-36 as a starter in 11-12):
      13.6 points, 4.8 assists, 2.6 TOs on a TS of 40.

      I’m not sure that anyone, even THCJ or bobneptune, would have predicted the horribleness that was TD this year.

    22. johnlocke

      The 23% shooting on 3s was really what no one saw coming, after 39% and 37% shooting the prior 2 years — you’re right that no one saw that specific horribleness coming. But Toney was always a score-first, combo guard even when he was playing well. He was never really a pick and roll PG or penetrate and kick PG. He was a decent passer, with very little instinctual PG skills from watching him. Also, 51% of his FGs last year, were from 3 point land. That’s half his offense that went south this season — that then killed his confidence and every other aspect of his game, including his passing which was never that strong to begin with. With a front-line of Chandler, Amare and Melo we needed a real PG, not a combo guard entering the season, even Lin struggled a bit incorporating all these guys in the offense and he was a lot better than Toney. Our offensive rating went from 4th, post trade to 24th and all we did was replace Turiaf with Amare and Billups with Douglas — shows the importance of a real PG.

      Frank: In the FO’s defense (it’s a weak defense) – this is what Toney did as a starter in 10-11 (most of these were starts at PG) per-36:

      17.2 points, 7 assists, 3.7 rebounds, on a TS of 65.9.
      These were obviously unsustainable, but my guess is they thought he might come out to 12 points, 5 assists on a TS of 55. (ie. super-average or even a bit below average)

      Instead, he gave us (per-36 as a starter in 11-12):
      13.6 points, 4.8 assists, 2.6 TOs on a TS of 40.

      I’m not sure that anyone, even THCJ or bobneptune, would have predicted the horribleness that was TD this year.

    23. ess-dog

      Turiaf was good for D’Antoni because he could pass out of the post nicely although he didn’t have much of a jumper. Lee could also pass well out of the post.

      I actually think Felton is pretty average. He excelled in MDA’s system, as most pass first pg’s would.

      Billups is a great player, not a traditional pass first point guard though and you could argue that after 10-11, he was due to fall off a cliff at his age.

      MDA has never had a pg with the ast% that Lin put up in his time manning the position in nyc. Maybe Duhon was the closest? IDK, I don’t have the numbers.

      If Amare and Lin can improve their defense and shooting (even a little), this team will actually be a great fit for Woody as constructed. Big “if” I know, but could it happen…

    24. ess-dog

      And yes, if you’re looking to trade, Amare is the obvious candidate with Woody now the coach. But the uninsured contract is a killer in this new cba. Unless you can find a team that’s one piece away and still has their amnesty and an owner so rich that they don’t care if they have to eat $$… not sure what team is a good fit for Amare. Whoever hires D’Antoni? Lol…

    25. johnlocke

      What the hell is going on in Orlando? Keep Howard at all costs?

      “Magic announce they’ve fired Stan Van Gundy and that team and GM Otis Smith have agreed to part ways.” – courtesy of David Aldrige on Twitter

    26. JC Knickfan

      @27
      Only players that you had under contract in 2010-2011 can amnesty. Traded player can’t be amnesty. We stuck with Amare unless we take bad deal in return.

    27. thenamestsam

      I mean Dwight on even a max contract has massive value. He’s worth so much more than a max contract, that you have to try everything to keep him I think. It’s just so hard to get fair value in a trade for a guy like Howard. Even if firing SVG only raises your chances of keeping Howard by 5% or so, I still think it’s worth it.

      Big question is should the Knicks go for SVG? I think he’s a significant upgrade over Woody, but I can’t imagine him getting along all that well with Melo and Amare, especially once they’ve already let it be known they want Woodson back. Once you factor in the additional cost of further instability I’d lean towards sticking it out with Woodson I think.

    28. JC Knickfan

      @12

      LBJ is talented player no-doubt. He already being touted as starting SF on all-nba team. I still take Larry Bird over him.

      Either way he hasn’t won championship. He continue to be very scrutinized until he does. He probably needs to win at least 3 just to be considered as one of the all-time greats.
      Plus LBJ not bring any love from the media or fan when say stuff like this.

      Here a reminder after lost last year.

      “All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point.”

    29. JC Knickfan

      johnlocke:
      What the hell is going on in Orlando? Keep Howard at all costs?

      “Magic announce they’ve fired Stan Van Gundy and that team and GM Otis Smith have agreed to part ways.” – courtesy of David Aldrige on Twitter

      When Van Gundy told media about Howard he pretty much seal his fate. My guess Otis Smith probably one who told Van Gundy Howard wanted him out which lead to interview. I say owner probably pretty piss on how these 2 acted.

    30. jon abbey

      Owen:
      Not sure what you mean here. Chris Paul is a lot better than Melo. Agreed. There is really no comparison in terms of playing ability.

      You think Paul’s reputation should have taken a hit for forcing his way out of New Orleans, an org which went bankrupt while he was there?

      Not sure how similar the analogy is to Melo’s situation.

      Also, find the sports guy interview with Paul and ask yourself if it doesn’t make sense that the media loves this guy. One of the smartest, most interesting guys in the nba in my book.

      Paul is still overrated, and I think it’s far from clear that he’s better than Melo in postseason situations. Paul certainly had a lousy postseason this year, whether it was because of injuries or not, but Bledsoe looked better than Paul for long stretches.

    31. johnlocke

      @JC Knickfan – Here are some other classics:

      “I spoil a lot of people with my play. When you have a bad game here or there, you’ve had three bad games in a seven-year career, then it’s easy to point that out.”

      “I’m a competitor. “If somebody beats you up, you’re not going to congratulate them,” James said. “It doesn’t make sense for me to go over and shake somebody’s hand.”

    32. Z

      ess-dog:
      And yes, if you’re looking to trade, Amare is the obvious candidate with Woody now the coach.But the uninsured contract is a killer in this new cba.Unless you can find a team that’s one piece away and still has their amnesty and an owner so rich that they don’t care if they have to eat $$…not sure what team is a good fit for Amare.Whoever hires D’Antoni?Lol…

      What about an effective three-team trade:

      Nets get: Amar’e
      Knicks get: Gordon, Prince
      Pistons get: Anthony Morrow and the Nets cap space.

      Knicks get a scoring 2 guard and some defensive depth; Rebuidling Pistons get to reset (save over $30 mil); Nets get to spend their cap space on the most famous player they can get to take it. Win, win, win?

    33. ess-dog

      Z: What about an effective three-team trade:

      Nets get: Amar’e
      Knicks get: Gordon, Prince
      Pistons get: Anthony Morrow and the Nets cap space.

      Knicks get a scoring 2 guard and some defensive depth; Rebuidling Pistons get to reset (save over $30 mil); Nets get to spend their cap space on the most famous player they can get to take it. Win, win, win?

      That would be funny if the Nets fired Avery, hired D’Antoni and then traded for Stat. And of course keep Deron and maybe trade Brooke. Would be a pretty nice team.

    34. johnlocke

      Wait what? Paul was clearly injured in this series, it was obvious to everyone who’s watched him play including Pop.

      I don’t think there is any statistical evidence you can point to, to suggest Paul hasn’t had better and more consistent individual performances over his playoff career than Melo.
      Melo has scored about 5 more points per game, 7 less assists per game, 1 less steal per game and about 1 rebound more per game on far less efficient shooting (56% vs 52% TS). His TS% has also been much more inconsistent than Paul’s. Melo’s range, excl his lowest (43% – 58%)… Paul’s excl his lowest (52%-67%)

      Paul impacts the games in more ways offensively and defensively and is a more efficient offensive player. What facts do you have to suggest Paul is overrated, besides getting bounced in the playoffs, by far better teams?

      jon abbey: Paul is still overrated, and I think it’s far from clear that he’s better than Melo in postseason situations. Paul certainly had a lousy postseason this year, whether it was because of injuries or not, but Bledsoe looked better than Paul for long stretches.

    35. johnlocke

      The Nets don’t do that… look at the 2013 free agent class.

      Z: What about an effective three-team trade:

      Nets get: Amar’e
      Knicks get: Gordon, Prince
      Pistons get: Anthony Morrow and the Nets cap space.

      Knicks get a scoring 2 guard and some defensive depth; Rebuidling Pistons get to reset (save over $30 mil); Nets get to spend their cap space on the most famous player they can get to take it. Win, win, win?

    36. njasdjdh

      At some point…people are going to have to stop looking at LeBron as purely and athletic freak and realize he has an exceptionally skilled basketball player. This includes the continued overlooking of his shooting where there is very little evidence that I can see to think/believe that Kobe Bryant is a better mid range shooter than he is.

      thenamestsam: I think how Lebron should be expected to age is a sort of fascinating topic, and given that he’s the best player in the league and one who plays for an Eastern Conference contender, one that is obviously relevant to the Knicks. The guys he is most compared to, Kobe and Jordan both became more adept in the mid-range to compensate for their declining athleticism, but jump-shooting has never been Lebron’s strength, and I personally doubt that any amount of work will make it one. I’ve seen it speculated that because he is so muscular and has such large hands that it’s hard for him to find consistent form. Whatever the reason his struggles at the line make it hard for me to imagine that he’ll ever be deadly consistent in the mid-range.

      The most natural evolution would be for him to start playing inside more. While his speed and quickness will probably deteriorate somewhat, his strength should continue to be elite, he has already shown that he can dominate at the 4, and losses in quickness won’t be as big a deal since he’ll obviously still have elite quickness for a big man. He has shown off some good post moves at times this year, and if he keeps improving in that category he could become an elite low-post scorer who could make you pay for doubling more than anyone.

      However while it’s most natural I’m not sure it’s what Lebron wants. He has never gone to the post as much as people expect, and I think he really thinks of himself more as a PG than a PF. Is he willing to change that? Remains to be seen.

    37. jon abbey

      johnlocke:

      Paul impacts the games in more ways offensively and defensively and is a more efficient offensive player.What facts do you have to suggest Paul is overrated, besides getting bounced in the playoffs, by far better teams?

      Paul got pretty lucky this year with that miracle comeback in game 1 against Memphis (which he didn’t have much to do with), otherwise he probably goes out in the first round again. dunno, I’ve always thought he was somewhat overrated, he turns it on and off during games too much for my taste (although he did a great job of getting away with it this regular season), and I think him being considered a top 5 guy overall in the league is ridiculous. as far as PGs, I’d take a healthy Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, and maybe Tony Parker over him at the PG position, not sure about Deron Williams anymore.

      by the way, one of those “far better teams” that Paul has lost to in the playoffs was Melo’s Denver team in 2009, where Paul disappeared in the last two games and he had a negative WS/48 for the series. I don’t really get why he’s so bulletproof in the media, maybe it’s what Owen said about how well-spoken he is.

    38. njasdjdh

      In what aspect of basketball is Rajon Rondo Chris Paul’s superior? I can’t think of a single one.

      jon abbey: Paul got pretty lucky this year with that miracle comeback in game 1 against Memphis (which he didn’t have much to do with), otherwise he probably goes out in the first round again. dunno, I’ve always thought he was somewhat overrated, he turns it on and off during games too much for my taste (although he did a great job of getting away with it this regular season), and I think him being considered a top 5 guy overall in the league is ridiculous. as far as PGs, I’d take a healthy Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, and maybe Tony Parker over him at the PG position, not sure about Deron Williams anymore.

      by the way, one of those “far better teams” that Paul has lost to in the playoffs was Melo’s Denver team in 2009, where Paul disappeared in the last two games and he had a negative WS/48 for the series. I don’t really get why he’s so bulletproof in the media, maybe it’s what Owen said about how well-spoken he is.

    39. jon abbey

      njasdjdh:
      In what aspect of basketball is Rajon Rondo Chris Paul’s superior? I can’t think of a single one.

      the easy one is rebounding, but Rondo’s got a 60.9 assist percentage this postseason, Paul had a 37.7.

      I don’t think anyone would argue Paul over Rondo for this current postseason, but I’ve been wrong before.

    40. jon abbey

      but the main thing is that I think Rondo is a big game player and I think Paul isn’t. also, Rondo has taken on LeBron head to head and stopped him, there’s no way Paul could ever do that.

    41. jon abbey

      Rondo also had close to three more assists per game than Paul this year, 11.7 to 9.1.

    42. thenamestsam

      njasdjdh:
      At some point…people are going to have to stop looking at LeBron as purely and athletic freak and realize he has an exceptionally skilled basketball player. This includes the continued overlooking of his shooting where there is very little evidence that I can see to think/believe that Kobe Bryant is a better mid range shooter than he is.

      I definitely don’t look at Lebron that way. I didn’t say he’d age poorly because he only relies on athleticism, I said I think how he will age is an interesting question because he has a fairly unique brand of skills – a PG’s mentality in a PF’s body with some of the skills of both. In his career to this point those seeming contradictions haven’t been an issue because he is athletic enough to do it all. He’s quick enough to be an elite PG despite his size, and to be an elite PF despite his lack of a consistent post game. His athleticism bridges the gaps right now, but without truly elite athleticism his game will be an odd amalgamation of different pieces. I have no doubt he will still be an elite player, just a very different one.

      I honestly don’t know how to answer the question of whether Kobe is a better jump shooter than Lebron. It has always seemed to be that he was, but looking at the numbers I see that even this year Lebron had a higher eFG% on jump shots. I still think that Kobe is probably the better shooter, he just takes significantly harder shots, but I honestly don’t know if it’s even possible to look at that statistically.

    43. thenamestsam

      I think Paul vs. Rondo is close enough that it’s very hard to say who’s better, and given how different they are I think a lot of it boils down to team fit.

      Paul, to me, is 2nd only to Lebron in terms of fitting on every team. There isn’t a group of players I can imagine where he wouldn’t fit well and dramatically enhance what they do. He’s a prototypical PG, he has the leadership, he can score or set up as the situation demands, etc. Insanely well rounded as a PG.

      Rondo, on the other hand, is amazing in some facets and weak in others, but he’s in the perfect situation for him. Serious attitude problem, but he plays on a team full of veteran guys with a fantastic coach. Lack of a jumper makes it hard for him to get his own offense in the half-court sometimes, but he plays on a tremendously balanced offensive team with 3 other guys who can create their own shots, which both frees him of that responsibility and opens up the floor for him to drive.

      There are groups of players that I think would be hardly enhanced by Rondo at all. Give him a mediocre team like last year’s Hornets and I think he’d be throwing hissy fits and deferring too much to guys like Ariza. Give Paul the same group and he can do some things. At the same time I think a Rondo for Paul trade would weaken this Celtics team.

    44. johnlocke

      Sounds like it’s just a matter of personal taste for you regarding his style of play. By the way in that game 1 against Memphis, Paul had 7 assists in the 4th quarter. He also assisted on every one of Nick Young’s 3s in that corner w/ the penetrate and kick.

      Most GMs would disagree with you regarding who you’d take over Chris Paul. The secret sauce w/ Chris is that he gives you tons of positives with very, very few, if any negatives. Basketball is all about your positive contributions off-set by your negatives. Chris Paul (while hurt) recently had 8 TOs which is his career high — that is unbelievable. They guy does not turn the ball over. All the other guys you listed have significant weaknesses. Rose doesn’t shoot that well for a PG, is a so-so defender and could improve his vision, Rajan Rondo is a horrible jump shooter, Tony Parker is also not a great jump shooter and is a so-so defender and not a great passer. Paul is the most complete PG in the game and it’s just as much about the deficits he doesn’t have, as the positives he brings.

      jon abbey: Paul got pretty lucky this year with that miracle comeback in game 1 against Memphis (which he didn’t have much to do with), otherwise he probably goes out in the first round again. I think him being considered a top 5 guy overall in the league is ridiculous. as far as PGs, I’d take a healthy Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, and maybe Tony Parker over him at the PG position, not sure about Deron Williams anymore.

      by the way, one of those “far better teams” that Paul has lost to in the playoffs was Melo’s Denver team in 2009, where Paul disappeared in the last two games and he had a negative WS/48 for the series. I don’t really get why he’s so bulletproof in the media, maybe it’s what Owen said about how well-spoken he is.

    45. PC

      Rondo is a triple-double machine. How many times in the last few years have we seen Paul refuse to pass at the end of games and get himself into trouble in the paint with nowhere to go? He turns the ball over a lot on those last possessions (which the world has now narrowly construed as the only “clutch” possession of the game).

      And, falling back on the argument that Paul was injured this post season is BS – he is always injured. That’s one of the major negatives to his game. He wears monster knee braces and has a history of injuries. Rondo clearly destroys him on durability, which in this NBA, is an asset with value.

    46. jon abbey

      PC:

      And, falling back on the argument that Paul was injured this post season is BS – he is always injured. That’s one of the major negatives to his game.He wears monster knee braces and has a history of injuries.Rondo clearly destroys him on durability, which in this NBA, is an asset with value.

      yep, I’m amazed he was as healthy as he was this season, I thought there was a good chance he would be going down the Brandon Roy road.

    47. PC

      Paul’s team this year was based on dunking and alley-oops and Rondo still had three more assist per game. Rondo is doing things you do not see from point guards. And, his inability to shoot actually helps the Celtics. Opponents play off of him (which is moronic) which allows Rondo to destroy his opponents off the dribble and get closer to foul line. Rondo runs the point from the foul line whereas every PG runs the point from the three point line and Baron Davis ran it from half court.

    48. johnlocke

      Rondo overpasses when he should shoot and he stat stuffs on assists – I see it all the time. Anyway, I think context is important. Paul’s starting SG was out for the entire season. Paul had Blake Griffin, Rondo is playing with 3 Hall of Famers in Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen. In other news — Rondo averaged 12 pts and shot 45% from the field, including a Toney Douglas like 23% from three point land. Paul’s shooting – field/ft/3pt 46/87/35 ..Rondo’s 45/59/23. He shoots threes like Douglas and free throws like Fields. He is a GREAT passer, excellent defender and excellent driver, but a lot of his weaknesses (and they are significant) are hidden by the fact that the plays for the Celtics

      jon abbey:
      Rondo also had close to three more assists per game than Paul this year, 11.7 to 9.1.

    49. johnlocke

      Agree with everything you said, except your last sentence =)

      thenamestsam:
      I think Paul vs. Rondo is close enough that it’s very hard to say who’s better, and given how different they are I think a lot of it boils down to team fit.

      Paul, to me, is 2nd only to Lebron in terms of fitting on every team. There isn’t a group of players I can imagine where he wouldn’t fit well and dramatically enhance what they do. He’s a prototypical PG, he has the leadership, he can score or set up as the situation demands, etc. Insanely well rounded as a PG.

      Rondo, on the other hand, is amazing in some facets and weak in others, but he’s in the perfect situation for him. Serious attitude problem, but he plays on a team full of veteran guys with a fantastic coach. Lack of a jumper makes it hard for him to get his own offense in the half-court sometimes, but he plays on a tremendously balanced offensive team with 3 other guys who can create their own shots, which both frees him of that responsibility and opens up the floor for him to drive.

      There are groups of players that I think would be hardly enhanced by Rondo at all. Give him a mediocre team like last year’s Hornets and I think he’d be throwing hissy fits and deferring too much to guys like Ariza. Give Paul the same group and he can do some things. At the same time I think a Rondo for Paul trade would weaken this Celtics team.

    50. njasdjdh

      You do realize Rajon Rondo plays on a team whose offense is based on shooting jumpers and he is surrounded by good jump shooters at all times…right?

      I mean…do people really think Chris Paul couldn’t do what Rajon Rondo does? Rondo is healthier than Paul and a better rebounder. Chris Paul is then better at everything else on the basketball court by huge margins.

      PC:
      Paul’s team this year was based on dunking and alley-oops and Rondo still had three more assist per game.Rondo is doing things you do not see from point guards.And, his inability to shoot actually helps the Celtics.Opponents play off of him (which is moronic) which allows Rondo to destroy his opponents off the dribble and get closer to foul line.Rondo runs the point from the foul line whereas every PG runs the point from the three point line and Baron Davis ran it from half court.

    51. johnlocke

      Huh? Paul’s asst to TO ratio is ridiculously good and for a guy with the ball in his hands as much as he has it, rarely turns the ball over.
      TOs per game this season
      Paul – 2.1
      Rondo – 3.6
      Rose – 3.1
      Parker – 2.5
      Deron – 4.0

      PC:
      Rondo is a triple-double machine. How many times in the last few years have we seen Paul refuse to pass at the end of games and get himself into trouble in the paint with nowhere to go?He turns the ball over a lot on those last possessions (which the world has now narrowly construed as the only “clutch” possession of the game).

    52. ephus

      Rajan Rondo is a poor man’s Dennis Johnson. Great defense/great passing/strong penetration/horrid shooting.

    53. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Agree with everything you said, except your last sentence =)

      Haha. I don’t think it would be a dramatic drop off or anything. I just think Rondo is a slightly better fit for the Celtics. They need that little bit of dynamism, energy and youth that he provides in my opinion.

    54. jon abbey

      I guess my issue is with people seeming to blindly accept that Paul is in the overall top 5 players in the league based on his very impressive-seeming stats, I think he’s a decided notch down from those guys as I’ve said before more than once.

      but also I don’t get why Melo gets so much flak for not winning in the playoffs and someone like Paul doesn’t.

    55. njasdjdh

      I think you’re mixing together different groups. It is my impression that the people that kill Melo about not getting out of the first round tend to be those who are statistically inclined and they do so in an effort to present an argument they feel will appeal to the mainstream who believe Melo is one of the league’s premier players/it’s top scorer. Paul isn’t going to get that criticism from that group because the mainstream doesn’t believe Paul to be better than his statistical performance would indicate (as demonstrated by some of the very comments on this thread).

      jon abbey:
      I guess my issue is with people seeming to blindly accept that Paul is in the overall top 5 players in the league based on his very impressive-seeming stats, I think he’s a decided notch down from those guys as I’ve said before more than once.

      but also I don’t get why Melo gets so much flak for not winning in the playoffs and someone like Paul doesn’t.

    56. johnlocke

      Paul is better than Melo, but that’s a fair point — by the way the stats don’t “seem” impressive, they are, and they match the eye test..okay I’m done with my Paul love for the day.

      On to Melo.. he was in the same draft class as Wade and Lebron and is very good friends with those guys (and Kobe) and is an elite wing scorer. People often say of Melo: “he’s the best pure scorer in the game”. When you compare Melo to those guys, his playoff record and stats fall short, hence the criticism. Finally, Melo has by any standard, been on better teams than Paul. He has never had another all-star (current or former) on one of his team that I can remember, except for this year– then one of them (Billups) was out for the year.

      When Melo is on, there are few players more fun to watch…my personally itch with Melo is his inconsistency. The guy can easily go for 11 points or 42 within the same series. I also think that Melo does not efficiently use all his physical gifts ..the guy could be a very good defender if he put his mind to it and was consistent. He could also be a better passer. My other itch, is that over his career he has performed worse in the playoffs than the regular season statistically and by a noticeable margin, most star players play at or slightly lower in the playoffs than regular season.

      I think the above is why Melo gets so much flak.

      jon abbey:
      I guess my issue is with people seeming to blindly accept that Paul is in the overall top 5 players in the league based on his very impressive-seeming stats, I think he’s a decided notch down from those guys as I’ve said before more than once.

      but also I don’t get why Melo gets so much flak for not winning in the playoffs and someone like Paul doesn’t.

    57. jon abbey

      johnlocke:
      My other itch, is that over his career he has performed worse in the playoffs than the regular season statistically and by a noticeable margin, most star players play at or slightly lower in the playoffs than regular season.

      Paul’s regular season WS/48 is .238, his playoff average is .175.

      honestly, I know all the issues with Melo, and I agree with at least some of them. I just think Paul should be held to a similar standard as the other top guys in the league, and I don’t think he is.

    58. jon abbey

      “Finally, Melo has by any standard, been on better teams than Paul. He has never had another all-star (current or former) on one of his team that I can remember, except for this year– then one of them (Billups) was out for the year. ”

      not so sure about this either, the only other time he won a playoff series, he had David West (All-Star at the time), Peja Stojakovic (a few years past his prime, but still shot 44 percent from three that year), and Tyson Chandler. that’s more than Melo had helping him against Miami this year, certainly.

    59. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      “Finally, Melo has by any standard, been on better teams than Paul. He has never had another all-star (current or former) on one of his team that I can remember, except for this year– then one of them (Billups) was out for the year. ”

      not so sure about this either, the only other time he won a playoff series, he had David West (All-Star at the time), Peja Stojakovic (a few years past his prime, but still shot 44 percent from three that year), and Tyson Chandler. that’s more than Melo had helping him against Miami this year, certainly.

      Paul is a great player. Some people are making the claim he’s injured, and maybe that’s true.

      But we saw this kind of play when he faced Denver in ’09 ( a -.0.035 WS/48 )

      What did Denver do to Paul? They trapped him hard and always ran a second body towards him in the pnr.

      What were the Spurs doing to Paul? They were trapping him some and always showing a second body.

      What are the similarities between the Hornets of ’09 and the Clippers of ’12?

      Outside of Paul, NOH shot 30 of 90 from 3 — Denver was willing to give his shooters looks and they never had to readjust their gameplan.

      Well, what happened in this years Spurs Clippers series?

      First, the Clippers shot 38 % from 3, which is good and probably bettert than Pop expected. But they had two bigs in at the same time whose jump shot never had to be respected (Griffin, Martin, Evans, Jordan…

      That allowed San Antonio to hedge harder, to zone up Paul outside of screen action.

      Again, we saw these all over Lebron’s regular season and post-season numbers…. Spacing. Pretty much that simple.

      yes, there are times when great players can play great without it, but more often than not that’s what creates driving lanes and what allows for ball movement.

      Paul’s had some decent spacing teams. The years Melo had spacing in the playoffs he played quite well.

    60. johnlocke

      Ok, if we want to use win shares as the best metric for this argument… WS/48 for Melo are .129 during the season and .105 during the playoffs. Paul’s .175 in the playoffs is still better than Melo’s .129 during the regular season. Against the Spurs where by all accounts he played poorly, his WS/48 is still better than Melo’s career average. Melo’s WS/48 against the Heat = .097.

      If you look at averages, that one poor series Paul had is dragging down the average. Melo has had 3 negative win share playoffs and a high of .201. Chris Paul has had 1 negative win share playoffs and a high of .289. Also, I hope folks don’t use selective context, but Chris Paul had nagging injuries during that series as well. Yes, knock him for not being durable I guess. Quote from George Karl during the series: “I’m pretty sure Chris Paul is not 100 percent”

      Melo has been worse in the playoffs than Paul by any statistic I look at, including WS/48.

      jon abbey: Paul’s regular season WS/48 is .238, his playoff average is .175.

      honestly, I know all the issues with Melo, and I agree with at least some of them. I just think Paul should be held to a similar standard as the other top guys in the league, and I don’t think he is.

    61. Brian Cronin

      I believe all Jon is saying is that Paul should get some shit for his poor playoff series, not that Melo has performed better than Paul. He is just complaining that Paul does not seem to get guff when he has bad playoff series while Melo does. So it is more like “they should both be criticized.”

    62. johnlocke

      yeh i get it…Jon had 2 pts. 1) Why does Melo get shit for losing in the playoffs when Paul doesn’t … see first half of #60 and 2) He also said that “it’s far from clear that Paul is better than melo in playoff situations” ..so I responded to that in #65.

      Anywho…we have Melo, not Paul, so I hope he gets back to 2008-2009 playoffs and takes us to the ECF next year =)

      Brian Cronin:
      I believe all Jon is saying is that Paul should get some shit for his poor playoff series, not that Melo has performed better than Paul. He is just complaining that Paul does not seem to get guff when he has bad playoff series while Melo does. So it is more like “they should both be criticized.”

    63. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin:
      I believe all Jon is saying is that Paul should get some shit for his poor playoff series, not that Melo has performed better than Paul. He is just complaining that Paul does not seem to get guff when he has bad playoff series while Melo does. So it is more like “they should both be criticized.”

      yep, he seems to be untouchable, and Melo can’t do anything right.

      same with Tyson Chandler, who flat out sucked against Miami (no thanks to Toney giving him the plague) and gets zero flak.

    64. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      Ok, if we want to use win shares as the best metric for this argument… WS/48 for Melo are .129 during the season and .105 during the playoffs. Paul’s .175 in the playoffs is still better than Melo’s .129 during the regular season.Against the Spurs where by all accounts he played poorly, his WS/48 is still better than Melo’s career average.Melo’s WS/48 against the Heat = .097.

      If you look at averages, that one poor series Paul had is dragging down the average. Melo has had 3 negative win share playoffs and a high of .201. Chris Paul has had 1 negative win share playoffs and a high of .289.Also, I hope folks don’t use selective context, but Chris Paul had nagging injuries during that series as well. Yes, knock him for not being durable I guess. Quote from George Karl during the series: “I’m pretty sure Chris Paul is not 100 percent”

      Melo has been worse in the playoffs than Paul by any statistic I look at, including WS/48.

      I don’t really buy the injury thing in either case. He’s a great, great player, I don’t think anyone is arguing they’d start a franchise with Melo over Paul.

      But John, good good man, it is quite possible that variables outside of health and luck are significant factors in how a player performs, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs.

      I know a lot of folks here think NBA coaches are as useless as baseball managers, but they actually design offenses and defenses that their players attempt to execute.

      Maybe those coaches are just heaving shit against the wall, but I have a feeling that crowding great players because they can is a significant difference maker., because Tony Parker is by no means an all-world defender (his defense is running down your throat on offense on made shots) .

    65. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: Paul’s regular season WS/48 is .238, his playoff average is .175.

      honestly, I know all the issues with Melo, and I agree with at least some of them. I just think Paul should be held to a similar standard as the other top guys in the league, and I don’t think he is.

      I don’t understand. Is his game fundamentally flawed? He led the league in playoff WS48 in two of his four playoff seasons. This one was mediocre (best on his team according to PoP) and he had one abysmal 5-game run. How is this showing somehow more “telling” than the ones in which he was the best player on any NBA floor, one of which was a 12 game stretch?

    66. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t understand. Is his game fundamentally flawed? He led the league in playoff WS48 in two of his four playoff seasons. This one was mediocre (best on his team according to PoP) and he had one abysmal 5-game run. How is this showing somehow more “telling” than the ones in which he was the best player on any NBA floor, one of which was a 12 game stretch?

      Again, clearly not his point.

    67. Owen

      Wow, terrible call against Artest there, then the tech, that’s a huge swing….

      Bad reffing…

    68. Owen

      Melo only gets crap for losing in the playoffs because so many of his defenders make the argument that his skill set is uniquely suited to playoff basketball.

      His teams have performed to expectations pretty closely I think in the playoffs. I would say he has had no more or less impact than you would expect given the true talent he has shown in his career. To me, it’s baloney to say you need his ability to draw the defense more in the playoffs. Obviously, I don’t think it’s all that useful in the regular season either.

      The truth about playoffs is that everyone gets worse, there is a lot of randomness and small sample size stuff, and by and large the best players in the playoffs are the best guys in the regular season. But it’s a bit of a crapshoot year to year and series to series. Which leaves us all with plenty of room to bloviate. Makes it a lot of fun actually…..

      Re Paul and Melo – Why no one wants to give Paul just a little credit for leading the Clips to a win over Memphis I don’t know. That’s an impressive series victory. Looks meaningless now after a sweep, but that’s something Clips fans haven’t had in a long time. Also, the Clips are not a great team beyond Paul/Griffin

      Also, Paul has led the league in Win Shares for a season. When Melo does that I will

      A. ululate with joy, shock, and amazement and
      B. entertain the discussion about who is better.

    69. ruruland

      crapshoot, randomness and small samples — that pretty much explains the playoffs to folks like Owen.

      What a dull game it would be if you had that perspective.

      Obviously there is randomness in the small samples, but there is also a lot of very straight-forward explanations for why some guys struggle some post-seasons, and don’t in others.

      That 12 game stretch Paul’s teammates — including the floor spacing Peterson and a younger Peja—- shot lights out from 3.

    70. Owen

      Is it more interesting to hear talking heads just make stuff up? Perhaps you think so. Not me.

      Kobe Bryant, 42 points, 0 assists tonight….

    71. ruruland

      Owen:
      Is it more interesting to hear talking heads just make stuff up?Perhaps you think so. Not me.

      Kobe Bryant, 42 points, 0 assists tonight….

      Clearly there’s a difference between the kind of analysis made for entertainment in 2-3 minute segments, done by guys who are passively watching the game and have no stake in the performance, and the kind of reasoned analysis that’s the result of hours of study and film compilation done by guys who are paid to affect outcomes or have a true understanding of the state of affairs/ events during game.

      Kobe’s night would be another perfect example of this….He was amazing tonight. The length of OKC in the passing lanes and their ability to really take Bynum and Gasol out of the game physically made assists very difficult to come by — there is really nothing similar between how OKC was scoring, and the fundamental constructs of their offense and those of LAL much of this series.

      But, unfortunately right now, we can only measures things by misses or makes, rebounds, steals and dead-ball turnovers. Those outcomes teach us only so much, however.

      Though I’m sure THCJ believes he could be a great NBA coach, you could be his right hand-man: “Go score efficiently and get more steals than turnovers. Rah. Fight.”

    72. Owen

      “What a dull game it would be if you had that perspective.”

      And once again, let me apologize for not being a fan in the right way. My bad….

    73. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Clearly there’s a difference between the kind of analysis made for entertainment in 2-3 minute segments, done by guys who are passively watching the game and have no stake in the performance, and the kind of reasoned analysis that’s the result of hours of study and film compilation done by guys who are paid to affect outcomes or have a true understanding of the state of affairs/ events during game.

      Kobe’s night would be another perfect example of this….He was amazing tonight. The length of OKCin the passing lanes and their ability to really take Bynum and Gasol out of the game physically made assists very difficult to come by —there is really nothing similar between how OKC was scoring, and the fundamental constructs of their offense and those of LAL much of this series.

      But, unfortunately right now, we can only measures things by misses or makes,rebounds, steals and dead-ball turnovers. Those outcomes teach us only so much, however.

      Though I’m sure THCJ believes he could be a great NBA coach, you could be his right hand-man: “Go score efficiently and get more steals than turnovers. Rah. Fight.”

      I don’t think I could be a great NBA coach. I just don’t think there are many “great” NBA coaches. Most of them are average. Good coaches are a plenty. Great coaches are few and far between.

    74. Owen

      Ron Artest is clearly a little kuku…

      But that said, I don’t think this Lakers team is that far from competing again. I think it would be a mistake to blow it up even if the Thunder and Spurs look tough. If Kobe can play a little better it can work….

      Although Artest probably won’t be a huge part of the picture….

    75. jon abbey

      Owen:

      Re Paul and Melo – Why no one wants to give Paul just a little credit for leading the Clips to a win over Memphis I don’t know. That’s an impressive series victory. Looks meaningless now after a sweep, but that’s something Clips fans haven’t had in a long time.

      Paul had a lousy final two games in that series, 4 assists and 5 turnovers in game 7.

      that whole game 7 was kind of a joke, way too early in the day for such an important game and half the players on both teams looked asleep for most of it.

    76. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ron Artest is clearly a little kuku…

      But that said, I don’t think this Lakers team is that far from competing again. I think it would be a mistake to blow it up even if the Thunder and Spurs look tough. If Kobe can play a little better it can work….

      Although Artest probably won’t be a huge part of the picture….

      Gasol has fallen off quite a bit….Stats support that this year, more of an eye thing though.

    77. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ron Artest is clearly a little kuku…

      But that said, I don’t think this Lakers team is that far from competing again. I think it would be a mistake to blow it up even if the Thunder and Spurs look tough. If Kobe can play a little better it can work….

      Although Artest probably won’t be a huge part of the picture….

      They probably should be up 3-2 going for the close-out at Staples.
      But in each of their WCF runs post-Shaq they had series they won just as OKC beat them ( a lot closer than the final tally)

      ’08 you had Utah and SAS. ’09 they could have easily lost to a healthier Houston team, and Denver had a lead in 75% of the minutes in their series.

      Phoenix nearly won 3 in a row to advance in ’10.

      Lakers are owed quite a few more like this year and last year.

    78. Z

      Brian Cronin:
      I believe all Jon is saying is that Paul should get some shit for his poor playoff series, not that Melo has performed better than Paul. He is just complaining that Paul does not seem to get guff when he has bad playoff series while Melo does. So it is more like “they should both be criticized.”

      They probably should be criticized equally, but the freakin’ Clippers now have 2 more playoff series wins than the Knicks over the past ten years…

    79. jon abbey

      big deal, honestly. NY made the second round a zillion years in a row in the Ewing era, and we’re still waiting for a title.

    80. Doug

      Z: They probably should be criticized equally, but the freakin’ Clippers now have 2 more playoff series wins than the Knicks over the past ten years…

      I’ve never really counted individual playoffs wins.

    81. Brian Cronin

      Individual, of course not. Series wins, though, I certainly count. It is a lot better making it to the second round than not. Lord knows we’d all be a lot happier if the Knicks won a round. Yes, it is not as good as winning a title, but it is more satisfying than not making it out of the first round. The Malone/Stockton Jazz teams, for instance, were a great period for Utah fans. Yeah, they never won a title, but that team was a contender every year. Being a contender is fun.

    82. jon abbey

      winning a round and being a contender isn’t really the same thing. I know what you mean, but I don’t think we necessarily had a worse season than Philly or Indiana (assuming they both lose this round), they just had way easier first round matchups.

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