Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, April 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Mar 18 2013)

  • [New York Times] Heat Head to Boston Looking to Make It 23 in a Row (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:26:55 GMT)
    No extra motivation needed when the hated Heat come to Boston.

  • [New York Times] LA Lakers Beat Kings Without Kobe, 113-102 (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:14:42 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant never even emerged from the Los Angeles Lakers’ locker room, slowed by his sprained ankle and leveled by an apparent case of the flu.

  • [New York Times] The Nets’ Long and Winding Road Trip (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:08:58 GMT)
    Making way for the circus, the Nets are leaving for 17 days to 8 cities. That’s life for N.B.A. teams that share their arenas with events like the Grammys and Disney on Ice.

  • [New York Times] Kentucky and Alabama Top Seeds in N.I.T. (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:42:45 GMT)
    The Wildcats became the 20th defending national champions to be left out of the N.C.A.A. tournament, and the Crimson Tide joined them as the NIT’s other No. 1 seed.

  • [New York Times] Hawks 105, Nets 93: Sagging Offense Dooms Nets Against Hawks (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:24:39 GMT)
    Not even the return of Joe Johnson could rejuvenate the Nets, whose four days off seemed to sap them of their moxie against the Hawks.

  • [New York Times] N.C.A.A. Tournament: East Region: Shane Larkin Keeps Miami Steady (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:21:13 GMT)
    Point guard Shane Larkin has led the Hurricanes to their first A.C.C. regular-season and tournament titles.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Heat Defeat Raports and Extend Win Streak to 22 (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:07:09 GMT)
    Miami pulled away in the fourth quarter to beat Toronto for its 22nd consecutive victory. The longest stretch is 33 games, set by the 1971-72 Lakers.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Clippers Whip Knicks, but Martin Remains Unimpressed (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:16:34 GMT)
    The Clippers did not re-sign Kenyon Martin after last season, and despite their 93-80 win Sunday, he says their style still is not made for the playoffs.

  • [New York Times] Durant Scores 19 of 31 in 4th, Thunder Beat Mavs (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:44:42 GMT)
    Kevin Durant scored 19 of his 31 points in the fourth quarter, Russell Westbrook had 35 including the go-ahead jumper with 1 minute left, and the Oklahoma City Thunder beat the Dallas Mavericks 107-101 Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Hawks Pull Away, Keep Nets Out of 1st-Place Tie (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:29:34 GMT)
    Al Horford had 22 points and 11 rebounds, and the Atlanta Hawks dominated the fourth quarter to beat Brooklyn 105-93 on Sunday night, keeping the Nets from tying for first place in the Atlantic Division.

  • [New York Times] Williams Scores 28 as Wolves Edge Hornets, 97-95 (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:00:15 GMT)
    Derrick Williams scored a career-high 28 points and Ricky Rubio had 16 with six assists as the Minnesota Timberwolves beat the New Orleans Hornets 97-95 on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Curry, Thompson Lead Warriors Past Rockets (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:47:41 GMT)
    Stephen Curry scored 29 points, Klay Thompson had 26 with six 3-pointers, and Golden State stayed ahead of Houston in the Western Conference standings with a 108-78 win over the Rockets on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Questions of Vulnerability as Heat Stay Hot (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:03:13 GMT)
    With the Heat having joined the 2007-8 Rockets and the 1971-72 Lakers as the only teams to record 21 or more wins in a row, the questions now become how long the team can keep the streak going.

  • [New York Times] Clippers 93, Knicks 80: Clippers Overpower Knicks, Whose Losing Streak Reaches 4 (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:35:39 GMT)
    The Knicks, without the injured Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler, were dunked on eight times as the Clippers sent the team to its fourth straight loss.

  • [New York Post] March malaise getting worse (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:25:31 -0500)
    LOS ANGELES â?? There are a lot of ways to measure the mess and the murkiness in which the Knicks find themselves. They’ve lost four games in a row after yesterday’s 93-80 loss to the Clippers, and are a game away from taking a collar on this five-game Western…

  • [New York Post] Another strain for ailing Tyson (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:19:10 -0500)
    LOS ANGELES â?? So now Tyson Chandler has a stiff neck too. Wonderful.
    The Knicks announced yesterday Chandler missed his second straight game not because of his badly bruised left knee but because of a strained muscle in his neck. However, Chandler limped out of the locker room yesterday and didn…

  • [New York Post] Smith warns team after being routed by high-flying Clippers (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:19:10 -0500)
    LOS ANGELES â?? J.R. Smith sounded the alarm yesterday in Los Angeles after the Knicks fell to 0-4 on their nightmarish West Coast trip, after Lob City was too much for Limp City.
    The high-flying Clippers of Blake Griffin, Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan dismissed the ancient and depleted Knicks…

  • [New York Newsday] Shorthanded Knicks lose to Clippers, fall to 0-4 on West trip (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:00:30 EDT)
    The shorthanded Knicks played with the Clippers for a half, but eventually their talent and athleticism were too much to overcome.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Knicks’ big men come up small (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:19:53 GMT)
    The Kings, playing in the second game at Staples Center on Sunday, would have been more the Knicks’ speed. Mike Woodson’s team, however, had no choice but to take on the Clippers’ high flyers in the opener because that’s what the schedule-maker called for.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo gives media silent treatment after Knicks lose fourth straight (Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:28:01 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony, who missed his second straight game after having fluid drained from his right knee, declined to speak with reporters as he exited Staples Center following the Clippers 93-80 victory.

  • 68 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Mar 18 2013)

    1. JC Knickfan

      18-5 start was a strip tease. Knicks quickly put on their chastity belt left us fans with blue balls. Now I’m back to being grumpy and moody whenever I think about them. Doomed for a first round playoff exit.

    2. thenamestsam

      Eh, I’m not too worried about the anonymous speculations of a doctor who hasn’t even examined him. Reads to me like Isola calling all over town looking for a doc to say something along those lines. I mean he couldn’t even find a doctor to go on the record with his hard-hitting insights: “It means there is something going on with the knee”. I’m not going to panic over that.

      A couple other thoughts: First, I wonder if all the people completely despairing find much time to watch the other non-Heat East playoff teams. Because honestly if you think we have no chance against Atlanta or Brooklyn the only conclusion I can reach is that you probably haven’t seen those teams play very much. I mean there’s a reason that despite only playing really well for about 25 games the Knicks are STILL 3rd. We may be thoroughly mediocre right now even with Tyson and Melo (although I think/hope we can be more than that come playoff time), but 3 very flawed teams are going to the 2nd round of the Eastern Conference playoffs, and one is going to the Eastern Conference Finals. That’s a fact. It can be us.

      Second, it hasn’t been discussed much on here given all the current turmoil with the Knicks, but wow is Miami impressive right now. This is a team that almost won a title two years ago with a less talented roster, no identity, no system and their best player dealing with a crisis of confidence. I mean they almost won a title on pure talent, and now they’re more talented, only they also have an identity on both ends of the floor, everyone knows their role and they fit together almost seamlessly. And they’re going to be even better with their playoff rotation (Norris Cole is killing them). Could they sweep their way through the Eastern Conference playoffs? It’s not out of the question, right? If they started a series against Indiana tomorrow, is anyone picking it to go more than 5 games?

    3. JK47

      Let’s see, LeBron James and the Miami Heat are playing like an unstoppable juggernaut, and the Carmelo Anthony-Amar’e Stoudemire Knicks are an injured, hobbled mess trapped in NBA first round exit limbo, with no hope on the horizon until 2015 at the earliest.

      I’d say this is pretty much a worst-case scenario. This is so bad I’m actually looking forward to baseball season, and I’m a Mets fan.

    4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      “If traded, Carmelo will be the centerpiece of a team that, barring injuries, will struggle to 50 wins next season, and be a sitting duck in the first round of playoffs for teams like Miami and Chicago who turned high draft picks into efficient players and waited for the right pieces in free agency.

      Carmelo’s signing is all about risk. It’s not about continuation of high-level play — it’s about speculation as to whether he can be the player that he’s touted as. And selling the farm for that kind of risk reeks of Isiah, and I hope you’re all happy when the ship is in flames and we have a 33-year-old PF with bad knees that we’re looking to unload as an expiring and an unhappy “superstar” who is unloaded for peanuts to a team like the ’07 Celts where he’s finally surrounded by the efficient players he needs to be successful.

      It’s a risky proposition, and that’s foolish. Risk has no place in a league that guarantees its contracts and allows incompetent management and ownership to allocate 30% of a team’s on-court resources to one player alone. Carmelo will end the Knicks re-ascent before it finishes one season.”

      -THCJ, 02/21/2011

    5. d-mar

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      “If traded, Carmelo will be the centerpiece of a team that, barring injuries, will struggle to 50 wins next season, and be a sitting duck in the first round of playoffs for teams like Miami and Chicago who turned high draft picks into efficient players and waited for the right pieces in free agency.

      Carmelo’s signing is all about risk. It’s not about continuation of high-level play — it’s about speculation as to whether he can be the player that he’s touted as. And selling the farm for that kind of risk reeks of Isiah, and I hope you’re all happy when the ship is in flames and we have a 33-year-old PF with bad knees that we’re looking to unload as an expiring and an unhappy “superstar” who is unloaded for peanuts to a team like the ’07 Celts where he’s finally surrounded by the efficient players he needs to be successful.

      It’s a risky proposition, and that’s foolish. Risk has no place in a league that guarantees its contracts and allows incompetent management and ownership to allocate 30% of a team’s on-court resources to one player alone. Carmelo will end the Knicks re-ascent before it finishes one season.”

      -THCJ, 02/21/2011

      Quoting yourself, the epitome of arrogant douchebaggery

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      d-mar: Quoting yourself, the epitome of arrogant douchebaggery

      What, when I make a prediction and it comes true? Don’t be mad.

    7. Owen

      Travis D’Arnaud baby!

      Although he is going to disappoint too…..

      Harvey is a stud at least and the pitching will be good…..

    8. flossy

      Owen:
      Yeah, that was pretty spot on. The tone wins you no allies but it’s hard to argue with the accuracy….

      I’m not feeling particularly optimistic right now, but the book is hardly written on this team. It doesn’t take a genius to have predicted that Miami would be better than the Knicks regardless of whether or how we acquired Melo, and right now Chicago falls into the same class as veteran, injury-hobbled also-ran team. No team in the league outside of San Antonio can withstand injuries to its best players and just keep on rolling, and acting like you “predicted” a rash of injuries back in 2011 is bullshit.

      Moreover, it’s pretty clear that you’re happier for the team to fail if it gives you cause to claim you were right all along, rather than root for the team to outplay your expectations. Which is a litter perverse IMO.

    9. JK47

      Owen:
      Travis D’Arnaud baby!

      Although he is going to disappoint too…..

      Harvey is a stud at least and the pitching will be good…..

      As bad as the Mets are, they’re doing something no team I root for (Knicks, Mets, Raiders) has ever done in my lifetime: they are committing to a true rebuilding plan. Those three teams I subject myself to rooting for all have the same idiotic win-now, no patience mentality… Well, they all did until Sandy Alderson took over the Mets. The Knicks and Raiders will be bad to mediocre for the forseeable future, but with the Mets at least there’s some hope.

    10. Nick C.

      I don’t think THCJ is the only person that takes to pointing out their correct predictions. To be honest the tone of the quote is pretty neutral. I am waiting for the first poster to quote themselves when they were wrong.

    11. lavor postell

      flossy: I’m not feeling particularly optimistic right now, but the book is hardly written on this team.It doesn’t take a genius to have predicted that Miami would be better than the Knicks regardless of whether or how we acquired Melo, and right now Chicago falls into the same class as veteran, injury-hobbled also-ran team.No team in the league outside of San Antonio can withstand injuries to its best players and just keep on rolling, and acting like you “predicted” a rash of injuries back in 2011 is bullshit.

      Moreover, it’s pretty clear that you’re happier for the team to fail if it gives you cause to claim you were right all along, rather than root for the team to outplay your expectations.Which is a litter perverseIMO.

      Melo and STAT aren’t among our better players obviously which is why I’m more worried. Obviously we’re just lucky that Kidd hasn’t missed much time and that Camby is back healthy now I expect those two with a healthy Chandler to lead us back to the promised land. If we can just limit Melo and STAT’s minutes in the playoffs we’ll really improve our chances.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Nick C.:
      I don’t think THCJ is the only person that takes to pointing out their correct predictions. To be honest the tone of the quote is pretty neutral. I am waiting for the first poster to quote themselves when they were wrong.

      Do you remember when I predicted the Knicks’ record last season and ruruland tried to get me to admit that I was right for all the wrong reasons?

    13. jon abbey

      again, we wouldn’t have been any better off without Melo. nothing mattered after LeBron signed with Miami, in the big picture.

    14. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Do you remember when I predicted the Knicks’ record last season and ruruland tried to get me to admit that I was right for all the wrong reasons?

      lol I know you’ve seen my posts about a broken clock being right 2x/day. You were indeed right for all the wrong reasons but I guess that’s better than being wrong for all the wrong reasons.

      Whatever – I think your initial reaction to the Melo trade was pretty reasonable. We’ve definitely seen flashes of the Melo we want to see, and also a lot of regression into hero-ball and bad defense.

      I’m as optimistic a fan as they come, but my biggest worry is that we can’t get near a semblance of “healthy” by the 1st round of the playoffs. Thankfully it seems like we sidestepped a huge disaster with Tyson’s injury — a neck strain + bruised knee sounds much more manageable than what we were all worried was a ligament tear. And my feeling is that Melo will eventually be fine. I’m not entirely sure what a “soft tissue fluid collection” means– that does not sound the same to me as a joint effusion, which is fluid actually in the joint space– was this a fluid collection outside the joint? Like a bursitis?

      I can’t remember who but someone here said he’s been in sports medicine for decades — what do you think about that report – that he had a soft-tissue fluid collection removed from the back of the knee. Popliteal bursitis? Actual joint issue?

    15. flossy

      lavor postell: Melo and STAT aren’t among our better players obviously which is why I’m more worried.Obviously we’re just lucky that Kidd hasn’t missed much time and that Camby is back healthy now I expect those two with a healthy Chandler to lead us back to the promised land.If we can just limit Melo and STAT’s minutes in the playoffs we’ll really improve our chances.

      Not sure if trolling…

    16. Frank

      Well there you go. In my best THCJ impression I will now quote myself:

      Frank: And my feeling is that Melo will eventually be fine. I’m not entirely sure what a “soft tissue fluid collection” means– that does not sound the same to me as a joint effusion, which is fluid actually in the joint space– was this a fluid collection outside the joint?

      Twitter now saying that Melo’s “knee” problem was actually a fluid collection from a hamstring injury which then collected behind the knee. Knee is fine. Not playing tonight, but likely to be back Wednesday.

    17. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Do you remember when I predicted the Knicks’ record last season and ruruland tried to get me to admit that I was right for all the wrong reasons?

      And by phrasing it this way, you are in fact admitting that you were right for all the wrong reasons,ergo, wrong.

    18. ruruland

      Nick C.:
      I don’t think THCJ is the only person that takes to pointing out their correct predictions. To be honest the tone of the quote is pretty neutral. I am waiting for the first poster to quote themselves when they were wrong.

      I’ve admitted when I was wrong.

    19. Thomas B.

      d-mar:

      Quoting yourself, the epitome of arrogant douchebaggery

      I agree; this arrogant douchebaggery infringes on my own unique brand of arrogant douchebaggery. THCJ, this blog aint big enough for two douchebags. I challenge you to a douche-off! Winner gets to be the undisputed douche of the blog.

    20. bobneptune

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      “If traded, Carmelo will be the centerpiece of a team that, barring injuries, will struggle to 50 wins next season, and be a sitting duck in the first round of playoffs for teams like Miami and Chicago who turned high draft picks into efficient players and waited for the right pieces in free agency.

      Carmelo’s signing is all about risk. It’s not about continuation of high-level play — it’s about speculation as to whether he can be the player that he’s touted as. And selling the farm for that kind of risk reeks of Isiah, and I hope you’re all happy when the ship is in flames and we have a 33-year-old PF with bad knees that we’re looking to unload as an expiring and an unhappy “superstar” who is unloaded for peanuts to a team like the ’07 Celts where he’s finally surrounded by the efficient players he needs to be successful.

      It’s a risky proposition, and that’s foolish. Risk has no place in a league that guarantees its contracts and allows incompetent management and ownership to allocate 30% of a team’s on-court resources to one player alone. Carmelo will end the Knicks re-ascent before it finishes one season.”

      -THCJ, 02/21/2011

      While I hope you didn’t dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, your analysis was spot on.

    21. bobneptune

      Thomas B.: I agree; this arrogant douchebaggery infringes on my own unique brand of arrogant douchebaggery.THCJ, this blog aint big enough for two douchebags.I challenge you to a douche-off! Winner gets to be the undisputed douche of the blog.

      When you boys go out to the club, instead of ordering scotch and water, be sure to order vinegar and water :-)

    22. Thomas B.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      Do you remember when I predicted the Knicks’ record last season and ruruland tried to get me to admit that I was right for all the wrong reasons?

      Hey ruruland mocked me after the when I said the Knicks would probably win 45 games. I got a smug comment about how the knicks wouldn’t go 5 games under .500 to end the season. Well since that time, the Knicks are much closer to being a 45 win team ( 3 games under .500 with a loss this evening) than a 55 win team as some poster predicted early in the year because a play making point would fix everything (which might be true if the Knicks had signed one of those) But of course nobody could have predicted the injuries. So there really is no way to be right about this team that somebody won’t shoot down just to save face.

      Douchebag level: 8.5.

    23. Frank

      Holy @$^$#%, now Kurt Thomas is hurt? Isola just tweeted that NYK think he has a stress fracture – and if so, out for the year.

      Now that Henry Sims is back on the FA market, we should bring him in. At least he’ll know the system and the coaching staff knows him.

    24. Frank

      To be fair to ruru — when he makes a prediction he tells you WHY he is making that prediction. When some others here make predictions, there either is no “why” given, or the “why” given is actually incorrect even though the prediction is correct. It’s like giving the same credit to a clean swish vs. an unexpected bank shot. When you call “glass” before hand, it’s way more impressive, both in real basketball and in amateur basketball predictions.

    25. bobneptune

      Frank:
      Well there you go. In my best THCJ impression I will now quote myself:

      Twitter now saying that Melo’s “knee” problem was actually a fluid collection from a hamstring injury which then collected behind the knee. Knee is fine. Not playing tonight, but likely to be back Wednesday.

      I hope this is true. I’m not an MD but I took enough anatomy to know there is a structure behind the knee called the popliteal fossa which is an empty space behind the knee which is bordered by the capsule of the knee joint and the hamstring muscles.

      Fluid can collect there from a hamstring injury and have nothing to do with what is commonly thought of as the knee joint (within the capsule) itself. It is a little surprising they couldn’t differentiate this on the original MRI.

      It implies a sore hamstring which certainly has a better intermediate and longer term prognosis than an articular injury. That is if the fluid was drained from the popliteal space and not the joint capsule itself.

    26. BigBlueAL

      Also yeah if what Melo is saying about his knee is true that is great news. Makes my “optimism” of the Knicks righting the ship starting on Wed and still finishing with a 2/3 seed alot more feasible if Melo will be healthy for the rest of the season which sounds like he expects to be.

    27. Thomas B.

      ruruland:

      And by phrasing it this way, you are in fact admitting that you were right for all the wrong reasons,ergo, wrong.

      Hmmm.
      The Douche is strong in this one.

    28. Thomas B.

      Frank:

      To be fair to ruru — when he makes a prediction he tells you WHY he is making that prediction. When some others here make predictions, there either is no “why” given, or the “why” given is actually incorrect even though the prediction is correct. It’s like giving the same credit to a clean swish vs. an unexpected bank shot. When you call “glass” before hand, it’s way more impressive, both in real basketball and in amateur basketball predictions.

      I said why. I said the offense stinks, the defense was even worse, and nobody can stay upright.

    29. bobneptune

      BigBlueAL:
      Also yeah if what Melo is saying about his knee is true that is great news.Makes my “optimism” of the Knicks righting the ship starting on Wed and still finishing with a 2/3 seed alot more feasible if Melo will be healthy for the rest of the season which sounds like he expects to be.

      Before you get too optimistic remember this is the same melo that had muscle/hammy issues the last half of last season and currently is collecting fluid in his knee from these sore hamstring muscles.

      Missing 5 days isn’t curing this.

      However far better than an articular injury.

    30. bobneptune

      bobneptune: Before you get too optimistic remember this is the same melo that had muscle/hammy issues the last half of last season and currently is collecting fluid in his knee from these sore hamstring muscles.

      Missing 5 days isn’t curing this.

      However far better than an articular injury.

      Quoting myself is lame, but I just thought I’d feel a whole lot better about this if the Phoenix athletic trainers were managing this thing. Can’t Dolan spend his money in a productive way by hiring those people away from Phoenix?

    31. ruruland

      Thomas B.: I said why.I said the offense stinks, the defense was even worse, and nobody can stay upright.

      When? And the offense stinks?

      Look, I think Jowles made a good argument and clearly in this instance many of his points have been proven correct. I don’t actually think Jowles’ argument was new or unique now or in the past.

      Amares health was a probability that no one but doctors knew. The contract he received was not commensurate with any level of assessed risk, and that’s where the sin lies.

      Has it been proven that a Melo, Chandler, Amare core can challenge the unreplicatible Heat model? No.

      Is there evidence that solid role players can be attained to orbit that core? Yes.

    32. Frank

      bobneptune: Quoting myself is lame, but I just thought I’d feel a whole lot better about this if the Phoenix athletic trainers were managing this thing. Can’t Dolan spend his money in a productive way by hiring those people away from Phoenix?

      Totally agree. I’m not sure what those guys in Phoenix are doing, but it’s not like it’s a secret. Amare was there for his whole career! Can’t he tell the training staff some of the stuff that Phoenix used to do?

      Seriously though – some of these injuries could be expected – foot injuries to 7 foot guys seems pretty no-brainer to me — but the amount of injuries over the last 2 years should in some way reflect on the training staff, no? Or is it just terrible luck? The MDs are all from Hospital for Special Surgery, which is considered probably the best orthopedic hospital in the states — but not sure about the training staff.

    33. flossy

      Thomas B.: I agree; this arrogant douchebaggery infringes on my own unique brand of arrogant douchebaggery.THCJ, this blog aint big enough for two douchebags.I challenge you to a douche-off! Winner gets to be the undisputed douche of the blog.

      Ha! Watch the throne, Jowles

    34. flossy

      Frank: Totally agree. I’m not sure what those guys in Phoenix are doing, but it’s not like it’s a secret. Amare was there for his whole career! Can’t he tell the training staff some of the stuff that Phoenix used to do?

      The Phoenix training staff would probably tell Dolan to hop in the ol’ time machine and follow their advice not to offer Amar’e more than 3 years of guaranteed money.

    35. Frank

      flossy: The Phoenix training staff would probably tell Dolan to hop in the ol’ time machine and follow their advice not to offer Amar’e more than 3 years of guaranteed money.

      lol – that’s a good one!

      I remember listening to Steve Kerr right after he was replaced as GM — and he basically said that despite his high level of play, no one in PHX had any qualms about letting him go when the fully guaranteed offer sheet was sent. They knew he was a time bomb. The question is whether the Knicks knew that too and had to do something in that summer of 2010, or whether the Knicks doctors looked at the info and thought they could coax 5 years out of those knees. My guess is the former —

      I don’t agree with Ian O’Connor much of the time, but I sort of agree with him on his article re: Amare’s contract. Everyone knew the risks going in, but even though it has turned out this way, it was the first step to taking this team back to relevancy. The REAL tipping point for the franchise wasn’t the Amare contract — it was the Carmelo trade.

    36. thenamestsam

      ruruland:

      Is there evidence that solid role players can be attained to orbit that core? Yes.

      I’d say the evidence is pretty mixed on this front. You were certainly rushing to declare this argument over during Linsanity (when it seemed we had acquired a star PG out of thin air) and again during the Halcyon days of 18-5, but at this point I think it’s pretty reasonable to question the actual quality of the supporting pieces that have been put around those 3 guys over the last 2+ seasons. What do we really have right now?

      Kurt, Sheed, Camby and Kenyon have all contributed at times this year, but there’s a reason (as Sheed, Camby and Kurt have already shown) that teams aren’t rushing to grab up age 35+ big men. Even between those 4 roster spots they’ve barely found enough size to complement the Tyson-Amare pairing given how injury prone those 2 are (Yes, Amare has been hurt more than would be expected, but despite Tyson’s current injury he’s been significantly healthier than we had a right to expect).

      Unfortunately that’s actually the good news as far as I can tell. I think we’ve found out there’s a reason Novak was a waiver guy. Fine as a surprise attack, really not a rotation player on a contender. Same goes for Cope. JR is overstretched right now, but he’d be in any contender’s rotation. Shump has promise…but he has mostly stunk this year. The current version of him is a bench guard. Is there a contender that Felton could start for? No. He’s a backup PG. Kidd is washed up. On a good team he’s a 10-15 minute a night guy at most. Prigioni is a 3rd PG, which is to say not a rotation player.

      Outside of our “big 3″ I see an ideal 6th man in JR, a backup PG, a couple backup SGs and as many backup bigs as are healthy enough to get out of bed in the morning. Take away every team’s top 3. Is that a top 12 supporting cast?

    37. steveoh

      bobneptune: Before you get too optimistic remember this is the same melo that had muscle/hammy issues the last half of last season and currently is collecting fluid in his knee from these sore hamstring muscles.

      Missing 5 days isn’t curing this.

      However far better than an articular injury.

      Don’t worry. That’s for next week.

      bobneptune:

      Fluid can collect there from a hamstring injury and have nothing to do with what is commonly thought of as the knee joint (within the capsule) itself. It is a little surprising they couldn’t differentiate this on the original MRI.

      That’s because our MRI machines are created from the same technology used in magic 8-balls.

    38. Z-man

      It’s funny how all the naysayers are geniuses right now that we are on a losing streak with our three best players injured.

    39. nyk8806

      We gambled on “veteran leadership.” Could have been a genius move, but nobody should be surprised that we ended up with a retirement home instead. Given everyone’s health history, I think we’re right about where we should have expected with injuries.

      Even the guys who are not regarded as injury-prone are suffering from the effects of the guys around them falling over left and right. When rotation players are missing time with injuries, the rest of the team is playing more minutes and hence more injury prone (esp. if your coach is a moron who is inexplicably in win-at-any cost mode). Likewise, anyone playing banged up is prone to exacerbating things or at least slowing down recovery. It’s not rocket science, people.

    40. bobneptune

      ruruland: When? And the offense stinks?

      Look, I think Jowles made a good argument and clearly in this instance many of his points have been proven correct. I don’t actually think Jowles’ argument was new or unique now or in the past.

      Amares health was a probability that no one but doctors knew. The contract he received was not commensurate with any level of assessed risk, and that’s where the sin lies.

      Has it been proven that a Melo, Chandler, Amare core can challenge the unreplicatible Heat model? No.

      Is there evidence that solid role players can be attained to orbit that core? Yes.

      Really? Where is that evidence? Assuming Melo, Chandler and Amar’e man the 3 front court spots, here is what we have to start at the 2 guard positions and bench in our possible rotation:

      Novak best set shot in basketball… awful defensively and can’t get his a shot off (could with Lin penetrating and kicking, btw)

      Felton below average nba player by any metric, let alone a starting point on a contending team

      Camby 38 yr old cripple

      Kidd 40 year old who collapsed after playing real minutes when Felton went down

      Shumpert- playing to a .028 WS/48 after rushing back from a surgery that takes 18 months to fully recover from.

      JR Smith – no one in the nba would give him a 3 yr 10M contract

      Wallace – out for 2 years, shocking he broke down in less than half a season

      Prigioni- 35 yr old slow rookie

      Thomas – 40 yr old OK 12th man on a roster

      There aren’t 2 legit NBA starting players on a good team on that roster, let alone a bench! That would have been a nice group in 2003, not 2013.

      I would say Melo and Chandler have done a plus job of hiding the sorryness of this group. The bad news is they will only be older next year and still under contract (mostly).

    41. bobneptune

      Z-man:
      It’s funny how all the naysayers are geniuses right now that we are on a losing streak with our three best players injured.

      Not fair, Z

      Anyone who looked at this roster with a .067 lifetime WS/48 point (felton), a nut .092 WS/48 2 guard (jr) and shump coming off major knee surgery playing the major guard position minutes, backed up by a 40 yr old kidd and a 35 yr old rookie, with a 2 yr retired guy and a 38 yr old camby backing up the bigs with novak as the only pure shooter on the roster who can only get his shot when the pg penetrates (ooops, lin is gone) and thought this roster was a contender was delusional.

    42. max fisher-cohen

      I’ll agree with ruru that with the very best cheap role players, this team would have a shot at a title. They wouldn’t be a top 3 team, but maybe top 8, just a smidge below what Memphis or Denver are now in terms of championship prospects. If we replaced our shit bench with a 2-3 of these players — guys who can defend and spread the floor — we’d be very very good:

      Battier: mini mid level
      Ray Allen: mini mid level
      Matt Barnes: vet’s minimum
      Danny Green: mini mid level
      Tony Allen: mini mid level

      The problem is that these are mostly title-hunting veterans, guys who are really rare and gravitate towards the teams that are already top-tier without them. We managed to recruit one of them in J.R. Smith, and Kenyon Martin is potentially a second one, but after that? The cupboards are bare. Still, this IMO is at least in the realm of possibility. It’s possible, IMO, though unlikely that NY can be a top 6-8 team next season and win 54 or so games and be a couple shooting stars away from making a title run.

      A lot of “ifs” though, and that’s the ceiling. Any improvement beyond that would require a miracle trade of Stoudemire because even assuming he can be a healthy 25 MPG PF who scores really efficiently and continues with the crap defense is

      A) still overpaid by $10-15m/year — you don’t pay what essentially boils down to slight upgrade over Carl Landry $22m/year — and
      B) doesn’t do the things that this team needs most (defend, spread the floor).

      What the Knicks need more than anything is a really good guard, someone who, combined with Anthony’s scoring (which would hopefully be more efficient with a better set of role players), can be our janky Voltronic Lebron James. That, combined with 1-2 more great and cheap role players, would make the Knicks a top 5 or so team.

    43. BigBlueAL

      Any chance the Knicks get lucky in the draft?? I know its considered a weak draft at the top but in the late teens, early 20′s maybe the Knicks can get a quality rotation player. Dunno what position they will/should target though.

    44. thenamestsam

      BigBlueAL:
      Any chance the Knicks get lucky in the draft??I know its considered a weak draft at the top but in the late teens, early 20?s maybe the Knicks can get a quality rotation player.Dunno what position they will/should target though.

      I think the “weak draft” talk mostly has to do with top levels. It seems like figuring out how deep a draft is at the time of the draft is really hard. For the most part there’s some consensus about how many players in a draft will be really good. But figuring out which of the guys drafted 10-30 will be good is way harder. If people had a good idea which of them would be good they’d go in the top 10.

      That said, I do think it’s possible to get a solid role player at 20, but finding somebody to be a solid role player their first (or second) year in the league is much, much more difficult.There’s a reason there are very rarely rookies or 2nd year players getting significant burn on contenders besides generally having low picks. They have to learn team defense, they need to adapt to being secondary options on offense, etc. Kawhi Leonard did it, Rajon Rondo did it, but seriously trying to draft someone to be an impact role player in their first year on an actual contender is a hail mary.

    45. EB

      I’d like a guard, preferably a point. I don’t care too much who we draft though, I believe in drafting for talent over position. Plus we probably end up trading the pick as soon as he is eligible…

      BigBlueAL:
      Any chance the Knicks get lucky in the draft??I know its considered a weak draft at the top but in the late teens, early 20?s maybe the Knicks can get a quality rotation player.Dunno what position they will/should target though.

    46. Z-man

      bobneptune: Not fair, Z

      Anyone who looked at this roster with a .067 lifetime WS/48 point (felton), a nut .092 WS/482 guard (jr) and shump coming off major knee surgery playing the major guard position minutes, backed up by a 40 yr old kidd and a 35 yr old rookie, with a 2 yr retired guy and a 38 yr old camby backing up the bigs with novak as the only pure shooter on the roster who can only get his shot when the pg penetrates (ooops, lin is gone) and thought this roster was a contender was delusional.

      4 games ago the Knicks were in second place in the EC and had won 5 of 7 with two close losses to the Heat and Thunder. Then their three best players get hurt and they lose 4 games on a WC trip that 2-3 would have been a reasonable finish for under any circumstances (GS, Denver and LAC are a combined 78-21 at home.).

      Despite Amare missing most of the season, Melo missing significant time, and Felton having a series of hand/finger injuries for most of the season, they are still a game out of the 2-spot in the east.

      And Lin’s very healthy team, incidentally, just got smoked by 30 at home by the mighty Warriors in a game with major playoff implications. Nice. With his $8 million per year contract and his 0.98 WS48. If only we had kept Lin, we’d be on our way!

    47. KnickFanInCelticLand

      Frank: And my feeling is that Melo will eventually be fine.I’m not entirely sure what a “soft tissue fluid collection” means– that does not sound the same to me as a joint effusion, which is fluid actually in the joint space– was this a fluid collection outside the joint? Like a bursitis?

      I can’t remember who but someone here said he’s been in sports medicine for decades — what do you think about that report – that he had a soft-tissue fluid collection removed from the back of the knee.Popliteal bursitis? Actual joint issue?

      The sports medicine doctor would be me. I am actually a foot specialist but am not totally in the dark about knees and hamstrings. If it is truly the hamstring problem we are hearing about, non surgical treatment often does the trick. My observations why many hamstring injuries linger or recur is because people too often focus their treatment on the injured effect (hamstring) rather the underlying cause. Unfortunately I have no clinical info on Melo to narrow down the possibilities…and if I did have this info I could not post here for healthcare privacy reasons. If I was Melo’s doctor or trainer, the first thing I would check is the primary hip flexor (ilio-psoas). When this muscle starts to lose strength, power or flexibility, the muscles that assist in these actions (hamstrings) often feel the brunt manifesting in injury while the ilio-psoas is asymptomatic.

      I hope whomever is handling him is competent and not just hiding behind a reputation for all knick fans’ sake…but most importantly, Melo’s sake. As a past national and world level athlete myself, I understand and sympathize with what he is going through.

    48. bobneptune

      KnickFanInCelticLand: The sports medicine doctor would be me.I am actually a foot specialist but am not totally in the dark about knees and hamstrings.If it is truly the hamstring problem we are hearing about, non surgical treatment often does the trick.My observations why many hamstring injuries linger or recur is because people too often focus their treatment on the injured effect (hamstring) rather the underlying cause.Unfortunately I have no clinical info on Melo to narrow down the possibilities…and if I did have this info I could not post here for healthcare privacy reasons.If I was Melo’s doctor or trainer, the first thing I would check is the primary hip flexor (ilio-psoas).When this muscle starts to lose strength, power or flexibility, the muscles that assist in these actions (hamstrings) often feel the brunt manifesting in injury while the ilio-psoas is asymptomatic.

      I hope whomever is handling him is competent and not just hiding behind a reputation for all knick fans’ sake…but most importantly, Melo’s sake.As a past national and world level athlete myself, I understand and sympathize with what he is going through.

      The genius of the Phoenix system is their training staff are kinesiologists who specialize in precisely what you are talking about, namely prophylactic care. I trained horses professionally for 40 years and every time (practically) a horse gets a severe injury, you can bet they have a minor lameness on its opposite limb. It is the load shifting that generally cause the devastating injuries.

      For the record, The knicks head doctor Lisa Callahan is a diplomate in family medicine from east carolina university. WTF?

    49. bobneptune

      KnickFanInCelticLand: The sports medicine doctor would be me.I am actually a foot specialist but am not totally in the dark about knees and hamstrings.If it is truly the hamstring problem we are hearing about, non surgical treatment often does the trick.My observations why many hamstring injuries linger or recur is because people too often focus their treatment on the injured effect (hamstring) rather the underlying cause.Unfortunately I have no clinical info on Melo to narrow down the possibilities…and if I did have this info I could not post here for healthcare privacy reasons.If I was Melo’s doctor or trainer, the first thing I would check is the primary hip flexor (ilio-psoas).When this muscle starts to lose strength, power or flexibility, the muscles that assist in these actions (hamstrings) often feel the brunt manifesting in injury while the ilio-psoas is asymptomatic.

      I hope whomever is handling him is competent and not just hiding behind a reputation for all knick fans’ sake…but most importantly, Melo’s sake.As a past national and world level athlete myself, I understand and sympathize with what he is going through.

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/paul_forrester/01/22/suns-trainers/index.html

    50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      d-mar:
      I hope Celtics fans realize that big first half leads against Miami mean absolutely zero.

      If Norris Cole keeps getting burn, it might mean quite a bit. That dude is truly awful at basketball.

    51. jon abbey

      Z-man:
      It’s funny how all the naysayers are geniuses right now that we are on a losing streak with our three best players injured.

      we were bad when everyone was healthy too, 20-21 over a full half season now.

    52. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I can’t believe that that was a technical foul. Best taunt I’ve ever seen.

    53. bobneptune

      Z-man: 4 games ago the Knicks were in second place in the EC and had won 5 of 7 with two close losses to the Heat and Thunder. Then their three best players get hurt and they lose 4 games on a WC trip that 2-3 would have been a reasonable finish for under any circumstances (GS, Denver and LAC are a combined 78-21 at home.).

      Despite Amare missing most of the season, Melo missing significant time, and Felton having a series of hand/finger injuries for most of the season, they are still a game out of the 2-spot in the east.

      And Lin’s very healthy team, incidentally, just got smoked by 30 at home by the mighty Warriors in a game with major playoff implications. Nice. With his $8 million per year contract and his 0.98 WS48. If only we had kept Lin, we’d be on our way!

      You are going to tell me the knicks are a contending team as currently constructed with that back court and bench this year and the next 2 moving forward?

      And you prefer .066WS/48 point guards over .098 point guards?

    54. Thomas B.

      ruruland: When? And the offense stinks?

      Look, I think Jowles made a good argument and clearly in this instance many of his points have been proven correct. I don’t actually think Jowles’ argument was new or unique now or in the past.

      Amares health was a probability that no one but doctors knew. The contract he received was not commensurate with any level of assessed risk, and that’s where the sin lies.

      Has it been proven that a Melo, Chandler, Amare core can challenge the unreplicatible Heat model? No.

      Is there evidence that solid role players can be attained to orbit that core? Yes.

      http://knickerblogger.net/pacers-125-knicks-91/#comment-420828
      You haven’t noticed how much this offense stinks over the last 15 games. Pretty dreadful. With just a few bright spots against the Jazz, Pistons, and Warriors.

    55. Brian Cronin

      It is not that I didn’t like Wilson Chandler when he was with the Knicks, but holy shit, he’s been outstanding for the Nuggets recently. I never thought he had it in him.

    56. Z-man

      bobneptune: You are going to tell me the knicks are a contending team as currently constructed with that back court and bench this year and the next 2 moving forward?

      And you prefer .066WS/48 point guards over .098 point guards?

      You keep saying this and it’s downright stupid. One costs 4 mill a year, the other 8 mill + outrageous lux tax. To make it an either-or proposition is just dumb, especially since .98 ws48 is mediocre at best. Obviously there is more to your love of Lin than his stats.

    Comments are closed.