2FOR18: Well, it’s a process.I’ll probably be gone once I can get my bball fix from the Nets and Rockets once the preseason games start.I will leave you all to suffer the melo, JR and Felton years in peace.And I will await guys like jon abbey who will joining me when Shump is traded for Jarrett Jack next year and ruru is telling everyone how great Jack will mesh with the stars as a tertiary option.

+1. Only I’ll still watch the Knicks, but with less of my heart vested as I’ll be watching the Nets and Rockets as well. Also, I absolutely love OKC and thoroughly enjoy the Spurs.

Just like that, I’m spreading my wings and not staking all my basketball heart on the Knicks anymore.

johnno: Here’s the thing — the “conventional wisdom” is that Melo, Amare and, to a slightly lesser extent, Landry Fields are horrible defensive players. Yet, all three played major minutes and the Knicks were fifth in the league in defensive efficiency last year. Maybe they are not as bad as most people say that they are, especially when you consider the fact that, for more than half of last season, they had an offensive-minded coach. I realize that Tyson Chandler is a great defender, but even he would not be capable of offsetting three defensive sieves. I think that much of the criticism of Melo and Amare on the defensive end arise out of what Formido would call “confirmation bias.”

I agree that Melo gets a bad rep as a defender due mainly to confirmation bias, he certainly doesn’t try as consistently on that end as he should, but when he was locked in at the end of the year he was outright elite defensively. Amar’e, on the other hand, was pretty bad all year, and quite often it’s because he’s not really aware on that end (or for rebounds). He just doesn’t hustle and pay attention on defense like he should, and while I doubt he’ll become an elite defender at this point in his career, simply caring more and hustling more will result in him becoming at least average. Right now he’s a total liability, which means teams will actually plan their offense around attacking Amar’e. You can’t have outright liabilites on that end if you hope to do good, especially from your bigs

1. he looked like he couldn’t really bend at the waist and stood straight up a lot, making it nearly impossible for him to stay in front of quicker guys, even when favoring their strong side. If his back is still stiff, that’s not gonna change

2. He just seems to have slow reactions as a help defender, either being frozen or arriving too late. I don’t think it’s laziness (Amare wouldn’t be able to have overcome all that he has if he was fundamentally lazy) as much as befuddlement. I don’t know how you change that at this stage of his career.

One thing seems clear, Woodson is not gonna let him blow defensive assignments without harsh criticism. That will be a big change from D’Antoni, who never, ever criticized Amare publicly. And for a change, he has three grizzled defensive standouts to glare at him when he dows his matador thing in Kidd, Camby, and Thomas.

johnno:
Here’s the thing — the “conventional wisdom” is that Melo, Amare and, to a slightly lesser extent, Landry Fields are horrible defensive players.Yet, all three played major minutes and the Knicks were fifth in the league in defensive efficiency last year.Maybe they are not as bad as most people say that they are, especially when you consider the fact that, for more than half of last season, they had an offensive-minded coach.I realize that Tyson Chandler is a great defender, but even he would not be capable of offsetting three defensive sieves.I think that much of the criticism of Melo and Amare on the defensive end arise out of what Formido would call “confirmation bias.”

I think Landry is an average defensive player, Melo is a good defensive player when he wants to be, and that Amare has to be fully engaged to even be close to average. Have you ever watched Amare try to cover a pick and roll? Until the second half of the year, it was comical. Last year in the playoffs against the Celtics, there was an article on a Celtics blog on how they would go after Amare every single time down to floor on PNR plays, and that they were laughing in his face at how badly he played them. And if you watch any of our recent games against the Spurs, their whole offense is basically to involve Amare in PNR no matter who he’s covering.

Amare has great defensive tools, but either he’s never been taught defense (he’s said that himself in the past – not surprising since most of his career he’s been under MDA) or he just has no awareness of spacing etc. Being a great defender is a skill that is not totally dependent on physical attributes (although obviously they help). Hopefully some renewed focus on defensive fundamentals will make it so he’s not such an easy target for opposing offenses.

johnno: The thing that has been the most fun over the last two years is watching my sons, and my daughter, become huge basketball fans. How huge? They have become walking basketball encyclopedias — the other day, out of the clear blue, my son says, “Did you know that yesterday was Connie Hawkins’s 70th birthday? He was born on July 17, 1942.” During a 15 minute car ride, my other son peppered me non-stop with questions “How tall was Alonzo Mourning? How tall was Gus Johnson? How tall was Mark Eaton? How tall was Manute Bol? How tall was Dominique Wilkins? How tall was John Stockton?” When I told him to change the subject, he shifted to — “What number was Gerald Wilkins? What number was Rick Barry? What number was Michael Jordan on the Bulls? What number was Michael Jordan on the Wizards? What number was Wes Unseld?”

Yeah, fun part of life. Unfortunately for my son, he’s rooting for the same teams that brought me so much joy at his age: Knicks, Mets and Jets. My daughters are much smarter, going against their dad and rooting for the Yanks.

Juany8: If Amar’e seriously buys in on defense and starts doing the little things right, this team could be incredible. He has the physique of Dwight Howard, he really should be close to elite on that end, or at least above average. That he’s one of the worst big men defenders in the league is sad, especially since he still doesn’t fit that well offensively with Chandler (seriously why would he not fit in with Melo? Because they’re forced to shoot less??) since they both need pick and roll touches to be effective, and Amar’e is actually capable of spacing the floor (though he was terrible last year) which means when they are both in it just makes more sense to run the pick and roll with Chandler than Amar’e (because Chandler is a worse offensive player, not because he’s more efficient)

Juany8: What is actually not fun is being insulted on message boards while trying to have a serious discussion. Nor is it fun to read profanity filled posts about how stupid everyone is for not agreeing to a certain position. Like it or not, there is no conclusive evidence for either side of the Lin debate. Treating 25 starts as gospel is just as ignorant as dismissing them completely.Different opinions make this message board fun, posters who just want to come here to make other people miserable ruin it.

Well put, Juany.

Frank: All that said – this season may really come down to how much Melo and Amare buy in on the defensive end. I think the offense is going to be good– at least in the top 10-12 now that TD/Landry/Jeffries are no longer playing at all, and with season-long competent PG play and 3 point shooting. I thought Amare actually played pretty well on defense after Woodson came on board, and Melo’s uptick in effort has been well-documented. Camby’s arrival also means that Amare has some protection even when Tyson is out.

If Amar’e seriously buys in on defense and starts doing the little things right, this team could be incredible. He has the physique of Dwight Howard, he really should be close to elite on that end, or at least above average. That he’s one of the worst big men defenders in the league is sad, especially since he still doesn’t fit that well offensively with Chandler (seriously why would he not fit in with Melo? Because they’re forced to shoot less??) since they both need pick and roll touches to be effective, and Amar’e is actually capable of spacing the floor (though he was terrible last year) which means when they are both in it just makes more sense to run the pick and roll with Chandler than Amar’e (because Chandler is a worse offensive player, not because he’s more efficient)

Degree_Absolute: You know what is not fun? Reading a Knicks message board where everyone has the same opinion. Stop trying cull the board of opinions you don’t agree with. If you don’t want to read posts from Z or dogrufus, don’t read them. Please refrain from telling people that the board would be better off without them here, because it is probably not true. The diversity of opinions is why a lot of people come to this site.

What is actually not fun is being insulted on message boards while trying to have a serious discussion. Nor is it fun to read profanity filled posts about how stupid everyone is for not agreeing to a certain position. Like it or not, there is no conclusive evidence for either side of the Lin debate. Treating 25 starts as gospel is just as ignorant as dismissing them completely.

Different opinions make this message board fun, posters who just want to come here to make other people miserable ruin it.