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Friday, August 1, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 23 2012)

  • [New York Post] Report: Grunwald ducked Rockets (Mon, 23 Jul 2012 04:36:15 -0500)
    Glen Grunwald did his best to pull a Houdini act on Rockets officials last week in Las Vegas.
    According to a report in the Houston Chronicle, the Knicks general manager refused to either answer the door at his Mandarin Oriental hotel room or come to the front desk and accept…

  • [New York Times] U.S. Learn From Narrow Win Over Argentina (Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:39:06 GMT)
    It was the narrowest winning margin yet for the U.S. basketball team in the run-up to defending their Olympic title, but coach Mike Krzyzewski said the 86-80 victory over Argentina provided a valuable lesson for his squad.

  • 107 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 23 2012)

    1. Z-man

      After watching Prigioni yesterday, I have little doubt that he will be a very significant asset for us, especially in Shump’s absence. His court vision is superb. I could see him playing 15 mpg with Kidd at the 2. He’s not especially fast, but looks like he likes to mix it up physically. I think he played the entire second half, so he’s definitely in great condition.

    2. thenamestsam

      Z-man:
      After watching Prigioni yesterday, I have little doubt that he will be a very significant asset for us, especially in Shump’s absence. His court vision is superb.I could see him playing 15 mpg with Kidd at the 2. He’s not especially fast, but looks like he likes to mix it up physically. I think he played the entire second half, so he’s definitely in great condition.

      I don’t know about very significant, but I went in with very low expectations and also came away somewhat impressed. I’m not sure he has a single above average NBA skill, but he seemed solid in every aspect of the game. He was able to get the ball up and competently trigger the offense against truly fearsome athleticism, he hit a couple threes and he was competent on defense for the most part.

      My major concern is still what happens if Felton is out of shape or gets hurt. Prigioni didn’t seem to offer any penetration, and if we end up with him and Kidd splitting the minutes at PG I worry that it will really kill Amare and Tyson on the offensive end and leave us with few offensive options.

      Conclusion: Good backup option that should ensure we have baseline competency at the point at all times next year (not something that could be said last year) but not much more than that, and if he’s forced into too large a role the offense will struggle.

    3. Z-man

      For the most part, I agree, although I was very impressed with his command of the position and think he could adapt to whatever role is needed. Of note, the 3-pt line is shorter in Olympic play, so I wonder how that will affect his shooting. Also, the p&r makes it so that virtually any guard can get into the paint, it’s all a question of finishing. That is a big question mark, but I like what I saw otherwise.

      Re: Felton, I know people are still concerned about his conditioning, but he really looked good in his summer league appearance. I truly doubt he would just stop doing whatever he did to lose so much weight. As to injury, very few teams could live for very long without their starting PG. Maybe Miami because LeBron is a virtual PG, but not too many others. Good news is that Felton is a fireplug-type who is not prone to injury, unless played 41 mpg like D’Antoni had him playing. Between Kidd and Prig, our backup PG situation is as good as most very good teams.

    4. Juany8

      Z-man: After watching Prigioni yesterday, I have little doubt that he will be a very significant asset for us, especially in Shump’s absence. His court vision is superb. I could see him playing 15 mpg with Kidd at the 2. He’s not especially fast, but looks like he likes to mix it up physically. I think he played the entire second half, so he’s definitely in great condition.

      I don’t think people realize just how bad our point guards were last year. Toney Douglas was not just bad, he was worst-player-in-the-NBA terrible. Bibby was just a joke by then. Baron could do some nifty passes and get the ball past halfcourt, but he simply hadn’t adjusted to his vastly decreased athleticism (even from when he was a Clipper). Even Lin had games against Boston and Miami where he looked like he simply didn’t belong on the court, and he only started about a third of the team’s games last year (while still having no real backup) The Knicks had by far the worst point guard rotation in the league last year, to the point where they were asking Shumpert and JR to create off the dribble regularly and Melo was forced to be the team’s entire offense against an elite team like Miami (and to his credit, he did better than Paul Pierce did against less pressure). Losing Lin sucks, but having 3 competent point guards on the team is a pretty significant upgrade from last year. So is jettisoning Landry Fields, the spot up shooter who can’t shoot or follow other shooters around screens. All the players who hurt the team more than they helped are gone this year, once Shumpert comes back the Knicks will be 10 deep with people who actually deserve floor time on a decent NBA team.

    5. Z-man

      Juany8: I don’t think people realize just how bad our point guards were last year. Toney Douglas was not just bad, he was worst-player-in-the-NBA terrible. Bibby was just a joke by then. Baron could do some nifty passes and get the ball past halfcourt, but he simply hadn’t adjusted to his vastly decreased athleticism (even from when he was a Clipper). Even Lin had games against Boston and Miami where he looked like he simply didn’t belong on the court, and he only started about a third of the team’s games last year (while still having no real backup) The Knicks had by far the worst point guard rotation in the league last year, to the point where they were asking Shumpert and JR to create off the dribble regularly and Melo was forced to be the team’s entire offense against an elite team like Miami (and to his credit, he did better than Paul Pierce did against less pressure). Losing Lin sucks, but having 3 competent point guards on the team is a pretty significant upgrade from last year. So is jettisoning Landry Fields, the spot up shooter who can’t shoot or follow other shooters around screens. All the players who hurt the team more than they helped are gone this year, once Shumpert comes back the Knicks will be 10 deep with people who actually deserve floor time on a decent NBA team.

      Amen, brother. The future is now.

    6. Caleb

      Oh I completely agree – there is going to be a massive improvement just by not giving minutes to Douglas and Bibby. Just sorry we settled for “good enough” instead of “good.”

    7. formido

      Presumably that characterization has a lot to do with your priors. Nash turned the ball over 7 times against the Heat last year. I also watched one game against the Clippers where he dribbled off his foot, dribbled out of bounds without pressure, and dribbled hilariously into CP at mid court and simply gave away the ball, all in the span of 3 minutes. Of course, there was no prior bias to confirm, so it wasn’t even mentioned in the attendant AP recap. Fact is, Lin’s aggregate production last year, whether people have doubts that it will be replicated later, was well above average for a PG in the NBA. Of course, if any heralded PG put up this numbers in his first 25 starts, folks would be assuming that he’s going to be a star rather than assuming he’s going to get worse. Humans are bayesian inference machines, but they aren’t very good ones.

      Juany8: Even Lin had games against Boston and Miami where he looked like he simply didn’t belong on the court

    8. johnlocke

      Prigioni is a very good pick and roll player — definitely above NBA average. He’s very comfortable running it. When he plays, should be beneficial to both Amare and Chandler

      thenamestsam: I don’t know about very significant, but I went in with very low expectations and also came away somewhat impressed. I’m not sure he has a single above average NBA skill, but he seemed solid in every aspect of the game. He was able to get the ball up and competently trigger the offense against truly fearsome athleticism, he hit a couple threes and he was competent on defense for the most part.

      My major concern is still what happens if Felton is out of shape or gets hurt. Prigioni didn’t seem to offer any penetration, and if we end up with him and Kidd splitting the minutes at PG I worry that it will really kill Amare and Tyson on the offensive end and leave us with few offensive options.

      Conclusion: Good backup option that should ensure we have baseline competency at the point at all times next year (not something that could be said last year) but not much more than that, and if he’s forced into too large a role the offense will struggle.

    9. Z-man

      formido: Presumably that characterization has a lot to do with your priors. Nash turned the ball over 7 times against the Heat last year. I also watched one game against the Clippers where he dribbled off his foot, dribbled out of bounds without pressure, and dribbled hilariously into CP at mid court and simply gave away the ball, all in the span of 3 minutes. Of course, there was no prior bias to confirm, so it wasn’t even mentioned in the attendant AP recap. Fact is, Lin’s aggregate production last year, whether people have doubts that it will be replicated later, was well above average for a PG in the NBA. Of course, if any heralded PG put up this numbers in his first 25 starts, folks would be assuming that he’s going to be a star rather than assuming he’s going to get worse. Humans are bayesian inference machines, but they aren’t very good ones.

      Right, one is a 2-time MVP and one is a 10-game wonder who tailed off dramatically in the 13-game 2nd half of his 26-game career. On that basis alone, the 10-game wonder should get paid more in a year than the 2-time MVP ever made in any year of his career. Hey, since his first 7 starts were the best all-time for a PG, why not just put him in the Hall of Fame right now?

    10. Juany8

      formido: Presumably that characterization has a lot to do with your priors. Nash turned the ball over 7 times against the Heat last year. I also watched one game against the Clippers where he dribbled off his foot, dribbled out of bounds without pressure, and dribbled hilariously into CP at mid court and simply gave away the ball, all in the span of 3 minutes. Of course, there was no prior bias to confirm, so it wasn’t even mentioned in the attendant AP recap. Fact is, Lin’s aggregate production last year, whether people have doubts that it will be replicated later, was well above average for a PG in the NBA. Of course, if any heralded PG put up this numbers in his first 25 starts, folks would be assuming that he’s going to be a star rather than assuming he’s going to get worse. Humans are bayesian inference machines, but they aren’t very good ones.

      Although I agree that the Knicks should have kept Lin, the games against Boston and Miami I’m referring to aren’t bad games like the ones a Steve Nash or Chris Paul will have. They’ll still be able to run an offense, take makeable shots, and overall look like they’re good point guards who can’t buy a shot or are mistiming passes. Lin looked like a total scrub against Miami, he couldn’t even dribble the ball upcourt against Chalmers alone, much less deal with Miami’s aggressive, trapping defense. Even Davis was at least able to get the offense started, Lin looked like he should be benched and was a total liability considering how mediocre he was at defense (Chalmers only shut him down, Rondo shut him down and roasted him). The Knicks still should have kept Lin but let’s not pretend there weren’t moments last year when Lin didn’t look like a starter, much less the above average point guard most people are assuming he will be.

    11. arthurprescott2

      Z-man: Right, one is a 2-time MVP and one is a 10-game wonder who tailed off dramatically in the 13-game 2nd half of his 26-game career. On that basis alone, the 10-game wonder should get paid more in a year than the 2-time MVP ever made in any year of his career.Hey, since his first 7 starts were the best all-time for a PG, why not just put him in the Hall of Fame right now?

      Its really ridiculous how you can’t let it go. Are you that resentful that he would have been paid whatever? It’s the NBA – where ppl get paid whether they deserve it or not. NBD.

    12. Juany8

      Z-man, you actually get at a point I feel people are missing about Lin. Everyone says that if the beginning of his career was good as essentially a rookie, the most likely scenario is him improving with practice and experience. While that is true for most rookies, several factors make Lin a more unique case than your average lottery pick.

      First the lockout happened, which totally changed the conditioning and practice norms of the entire league. Many players came into the season out of shape and the actual games must have taken a huge toll on everyone. Unless it was someone like Lin who wasn’t playing, then such a player would get to come in totally fresh against tired opponents, creating as much of a “rest differential” between Lin and the rest of the NBA as possible.

      Second, Lin wasn’t actually a lottery pick who people had scouted from before (if only to determine his draft value), he was a totally unknown player who had already been cut several times, meaning practically no player in the league considered him a real threat. To compound the issue, the Knicks had a terrible record at the time and were missing both Melo and Stoudemire, which means other teams were starting to look at the Knicks as an easy win. The lockout didn’t exactly help with a team’s preparation time.

      Looking at just those 2 factors, it wouldn’t be very surprising for a player to start off hot and then tail off as teams scouted him better and as he was straining against the same schedule as everyone else. It all came to the point that a good team dead set on stopping him (Miami) was able to make Lin look closer to a D-League player than the star from Linsanity. Personally I’m with Z-man, if Lin had played the whole season his rookie stats would look closer to his last 13 games than the first 13. Of course I was expecting traditional improvement from then on, which is why I still think the Knicks should have kept him

    13. bc2k

      arthurprescott2: Its really ridiculous how you can’t let it go. Are you that resentful that he would have been paid whatever? It’s the NBA – where ppl get paid whether they deserve it or not. NBD.

      QFT! Some people are just obsessed with Lin for some weird reason LOL.

    14. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Prigioni is a very good pick and roll player — definitely above NBA average. He’s very comfortable running it. When he plays, should be beneficial to both Amare and Chandler

      I’m not trying to be a jerk, but I’m curious what you’re basing this on. I didn’t see that at all in yesterdays game. He combined nicely with Scola a few times, but more using their combined craftiness than any ability to get into the lane. I’ve seen some highlight videos where he gets to the rim effectively, but I was not impressed by his explosiveness in any of them. They were more a factor of defensive breakdowns. He’s definitely crafty and a good passer and maybe that will be enough to be an effective pick and roll player, but he’s not explosive and he’s not a knock down shooter. It’s very hard to be an effective pick and roll player in the NBA without one of those two attributes.

    15. ephus

      I was excited about Prigioni’s ability to run the offense against the USA defense, which has made PGs from Brazil and the DR look inept. I am not certain that the USA dialed the defense all the way up yesterday, hoping to keep somthing in reserve for games that count during the Olympics.

      The biggest deficiency that I saw in Prigioni’s game is that he has a very slow release on his shot. Although he only took 4 shots, it seems as if he will be suspetible to hard close-outs.

    16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I’m excited about talking about the upside of a 35-year-old who’s never played in the NBA. Boy, it’s great to be a Knicks fan.

    17. dogrufus

      Z-man:
      Re: Felton, I know people are still concerned about his conditioning, but he really looked good in his summer league appearance. I truly doubt he would just stop doing whatever he did to lose so much weight. As to injury, very few teams could live for very long without their starting PG.Maybe Miami because LeBron is a virtual PG, but not too many others.Good news is that Felton is a fireplug-type who is not prone to injury, unless played 41 mpg like D’Antoni had him playing. Between Kidd and Prig, our backup PG situation is as good as most very good teams.

      Sorry, but this is pure unadulterated horseshit. We had the worst PG rotation in the league last year and now it’s significantly worse. Our PGs have an average age of about 34. Felton’s a lot worse than Lin and hasn’t been consistently above average at anything for 8 years. He is a MASSIVE downgrade from Lin in every way. Amazing how quickly this delusional fanbase forgets things like that. Felton fucking SUCKS.

      Kidd just signed his last contract, is pushing 40, couldn’t run a top 10 offense last year with one of the best scorers in NBA history, and has drug/alcohol/anger issues. He has ZERO ability to finish at the basket or penetrate. Oh, and his 3 point shot, which he can only take when Dirk gets him a wide open 3, has cratered the past two years. Kidd fucking SUCKS.

      Prigioni is 35 and has never seen an NBA court. By far the most likely reality is that he SUCKS. Marbury had the skill and talent to be a star in his youth and at 35 he’s long out of the NBA. But Prigioni is gonna be a serviceable backup? We’re buying this shit now? God, fuck this team. Frankly, fans who harbor optimism now are nothng more than Dolan’s enablers.

    18. dogrufus

      Z-man: Right, one is a 2-time MVP and one is a 10-game wonder who tailed off dramatically in the 13-game 2nd half of his 26-game career. On that basis alone, the 10-game wonder should get paid more in a year than the 2-time MVP ever made in any year of his career.Hey, since his first 7 starts were the best all-time for a PG, why not just put him in the Hall of Fame right now?

      Oh, I see the problem. You’re giving a fuck about James Dolan’s money.

      You might want to google a few names like Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Eddy Curry, and Jamal Crawford. When you see what those guys were paid you’ll pipe down about Lin’s salary.

    19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Z-man, you actually get at a point I feel people are missing about Lin. Everyone says that if the beginning of his career was good as essentially a rookie, the most likely scenario is him improving with practice and experience. While that is true for most rookies, several factors make Lin a more unique case than your average lottery pick.

      First the lockout happened, which totally changed the conditioning and practice norms of the entire league. Many players came into the season out of shape and the actual games must have taken a huge toll on everyone. Unless it was someone like Lin who wasn’t playing, then such a player would get to come in totally fresh against tired opponents, creating as much of a “rest differential” between Lin and the rest of the NBA as possible.

      I’ve gotta respond to this post, because I think it is tremendously dumb. You’re saying that players came into the season out of shape, yet you have found some reason to exclude Lin from this group. It’s also possible that Lin, not having access to millions of dollars with which to hire personal trainers and dieticians and conditioning experts, was at a marked competitive disadvantage by the very nature of his entrance to the league. You also do not acknowledge the possibility that the players he faced were in much better shape due to actual game experience. He only practiced, and only saw ten-plus minutes of floor time once between the Linsanity streak.

      The thing is, I have no way of knowing if roughly five weeks of a congested schedule is enough to warrant the hypothesis that the players he faced were 1) poorly conditioned to start and thus 2) winded and broken-down, making them easy targets for a “fresh” pair of legs. What you’re saying is absolute conjecture and has absolutely no basis for serious discussion.

    20. Juany8

      dogrufus: Oh, I see the problem. You’re giving a fuck about James Dolan’s money. You might want to google a few names like Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Eddy Curry, and Jamal Crawford. When you see what those guys were paid you’ll pipe down about Lin’s salary.

      None of those guys were having their salary tripled by luxury tax payments. Let’s keep in mind that even the Lakers have been wary of the luxury tax the past 2 years, and that the Bulls have been having a fire sale with their bench lately. There was no downside to signing Lin as a fan, the team was actually more flexible with Lin than without him and obviously having Lin is better than not having him. For someone who actually has to spend that money, however, I wouldn’t have signed Lin if I thought Felton could give me even 60% of his production. The last 2 non-lockout seasons Felton gave noticeably more than 60% of what Lin gave last year, so if the staff thought Felton would show up in shape and motivated, I’d be really hard pressed to justify signing Lin. He’s making more money in the next 3 years than better PG’s like Dragic and Lowry, without the massive luxury tax issues Lin’s backloaded contract creates

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Second, Lin wasn’t actually a lottery pick who people had scouted from before (if only to determine his draft value), he was a totally unknown player who had already been cut several times, meaning practically no player in the league considered him a real threat. To compound the issue, the Knicks had a terrible record at the time and were missing both Melo and Stoudemire, which means other teams were starting to look at the Knicks as an easy win. The lockout didn’t exactly help with a team’s preparation time.
      Looking at just those 2 factors, it wouldn’t be very surprising for a player to start off hot and then tail off as teams scouted him better and as he was straining against the same schedule as everyone else. It all came to the point that a good team dead set on stopping him (Miami) was able to make Lin look closer to a D-League player than the star from Linsanity. Personally I’m with Z-man, if Lin had played the whole season his rookie stats would look closer to his last 13 games than the first 13. Of course I was expecting traditional improvement from then on, which is why I still think the Knicks should have kept him

      More horseshit.

      You assume that because Lin was not “known” around the league, he was at a competitive advantaged. While I agree that less time would be spent studying his game and tendencies, you presume that because he is not a big name, opposing teams would not play him very hard. This, of course, is more horseshit. As soon as a team began falling behind in a game, they would immediately “wake up” (if they were ever asleep) and begin to play tough defense. Furthermore, Lin is not an exceptional athlete, and he plays the penetrating PG like many other players in the league — just, at the time, better. You act as if NBA players had never played a player like him before. This makes no sense. Basketball is a very…

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And to address your final paragraph, you claim that the Heat made him look like a D-leaguer.

      Yes. This is true. But you’re also talking about the best team in the NBA, with two of the best backcourt defenders on any team. Is it any wonder that he struggled? Most teams struggle against LeBron James and co. Even Rondo, who is a magnificent athlete, has struggled against the perimeter D of the Heat. Let’s also not forget that James Harden, who was probably the best SG in the league this year, had an absolutely atrocious series against the Heat. Does this mean that he’s probably more like a D-leaguer? No. It means that he had a bad series of games, likely due in part to random chance and strong defense.

    23. bobneptune

      Z-man:
      After watching Prigioni yesterday, I have little doubt that he will be a very significant asset for us, especially in Shump’s absence. His court vision is superb.I could see him playing 15 mpg with Kidd at the 2. He’s not especially fast, but looks like he likes to mix it up physically. I think he played the entire second half, so he’s definitely in great condition.

      Z,

      You are a pretty funny fellow.

      You have watched Prigioni play one game and you have “little doubt he will be a significant asset,” while watching Lin start 26 games and go 16-10 and you have grave quastions as to his talent.

      But seriously , I have no grip (oe gripe, for that matter) on Prigioni’s impact on the Knicks, but it will be interesting to watch a 35 yr old used to playing ~ 40 games a year try and play ~100 vs markedly superior night to night competition.

      Also, fwiw, he hasn’t averaged 10 ppg since 2002/2003 even in espana.

    24. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You also do not acknowledge the possibility that the players he faced were in much better shape due to actual game experience. He only practiced, and only saw ten-plus minutes of floor time once between the Linsanity streak.The thing is, I have no way of knowing if roughly five weeks of a congested schedule is enough to warrant the hypothesis that the players he faced were 1) poorly conditioned to start and thus 2) winded and broken-down, making them easy targets for a “fresh” pair of legs. What you’re saying is absolute conjecture and has absolutely no basis for serious discussion.

      Um… what? Every single person involved with the NBA said last year was difficult on players because of the decreased rest time between games. Lin didn’t have to deal with the actual grind of the NBA season until it was well underway, which includes avoiding all the little injuries players accumulate through the year that don’t prevent them from playing (Lin’s own knee has been brought up as a reason for his diminished play as the season went on). Besides my point was that Lin’s particular circumstances are different enough from the average NBA rookie that Lin’s future performance cannot be projected in a standard way. If he had been a late first round pick and those 25 games were his first 25 in a regular season, then Lin would almost certainly become better than what he’s shown and everyone should be all in on him.

      Because the circumstances at the beginning of his career were so unique, I’m arguing that you can’t blankly analyze Lin’s production this past year. I think Lin’s rookie numbers in a normal season would look closer to his last 12 games than his first 12, and I wouldn’t pay $25 million to the average point guard was in his last 12 games

    25. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This, of course, is more horseshit. As soon as a team began falling behind in a game, they would immediately “wake up” (if they were ever asleep) and begin to play tough defense. Furthermore, Lin is not an exceptional athlete, and he plays the penetrating PG like many other players in the league — just, at the time, better. You act as if NBA players had never played a player like him before. This makes no sense. Basketball is a very…

      Lin was a primary option when he started who was not guarded like a primary option because no one knew or game planned for him. I know you think NBA coaching is bogus, but there is a long list of players who became noticeably worse their rookie years after scouts and defenses figured them out (Landry Fields anyone?). Little things like forcing him to go left make a big difference in a defense, and no defense was set on making Lin really work for his points until he had played several games and it was established he wasn’t a scrub. Not to mention that before Lin the defensive game plan on stopping New York was double Melo and laugh as Toney Douglas tries to do something. All of the sudden they totally changed their offense in the middle of a crammed season where teams were struggling to get practice time in. Besides, when Lin was winning alone he was either doing it against scrub teams (Minnesota, Toronto, New Jersey) or beating teams with ancient point guards who haven’t stopped fast penetrators in years (Kidd against Dallas, Fisher against LA).

      Also, Miami needed a game winner to beat Charlotte last year. If you think teams play just as hard against perceived “easy wins” as they do in bigger games, you’re totally delusional. At the beginning of Linsanity, even Knicks fans would have said they were an “easy win”

    26. Z

      bobneptune: Z,

      You are a pretty funny fellow.

      For the past few years I wouldn’t have minded so much having Z-Man’s opinions and posts attributed to me… But for the record, I have disagreed with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING Z-Man has posted here for the past few weeks.

      Please understand the following:

      Z is disgusted by this franchise and hopes they suffer a horrible and awful fate.

      Z-Man thinks Felton is an upgrade and the “future is now”.

      Confusing the two of us is like confusing Herman Cain for Obama just because he’s black. I just shouldn’t happen.

    27. arthurprescott2

      This is the most dysfunctional board. I don’t think it has ever been this divisive. He’s gone. Can we STOP talking about him? What is the point of arguing anymore?

      If Z-Man says Lin sucks – whatever. who gives a crap?
      If Jowles says Lin was great – whatever. who cares??

      NEITHER are doing a fair, balanced analysis based on fact. MOST of this is just conjecture based on prejudice/bias. WHAT IS THE POINT??

      You wanna be right?? Just wait til next season!!

    28. arthurprescott2

      AND then argue with your petty excuses then!
      (Felton needs time to mesh w/ the offense, Lin has no one else around him who can score, etc. etc. etc.). You guys are insufferable and make this GREAT community substantially worse every day.

    29. arthurprescott2

      You say you are grown men who have been following the Knicks for 20 or 45 years (BULLSHIT!) but you guys act like middle schoolers arguing which comic book character was greater.

    30. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Um… what? Every single person involved with the NBA said last year was difficult on players because of the decreased rest time between games. Lin didn’t have to deal with the actual grind of the NBA season until it was well underway, which includes avoiding all the little injuries players accumulate through the year that don’t prevent them from playing (Lin’s own knee has been brought up as a reason for his diminished play as the season went on). Besides my point was that Lin’s particular circumstances are different enough from the average NBA rookie that Lin’s future performance cannot be projected in a standard way. If he had been a late first round pick and those 25 games were his first 25 in a regular season, then Lin would almost certainly become better than what he’s shown and everyone should be all in on him.

      Because the circumstances at the beginning of his career were so unique, I’m arguing that you can’t blankly analyze Lin’s production this past year. I think Lin’s rookie numbers in a normal season would look closer to his last 12 games than his first 12, and I wouldn’t pay $25 million to the average point guard was in his last 12 games

      Again, this is all conjecture. You did not address the possibility that his lack of playing time could just as easily been a detriment to his conditioning, rather than a blessing due to a lack of minor injuries. You’re asserting one possibility as likelihood, when I’m asking why we can’t look at the month of very little playing time as potentially bad for a player.

      Furthermore, you seem to argue that because Toney Douglas was playing so poorly, that other teams did not have to guard him. This is simply untrue. Furthermore, teams like Charlotte CAN beat teams like Miami, even with both playing at maximum capacity. It’s 0% likely that Miami could beat Charlotte 82 times in a row. It’s an…

    31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      arthurprescott2:
      You say you are grown men who have been following the Knicks for 20 or 45 years (BULLSHIT!) but you guys act like middle schoolers arguing which comic book character was greater.

      I’m not arguing that Lin is great. I have argued right here on this board that not matching the offer sheet was an absolutely terrible move, and makes no sense short- or long-term. Still, Lin is not Nash, Paul, or Rose.

      What I’m arguing against is Juany8′s belief that Lin’s numbers are somehow uniquely flawed due to what he believes is a significant set of unusual circumstances. I have presented Juany8 with a counterargument (that not playing regularly for a month could be detrimental to a player’s immediate efficiency due to conditioning problems) and he seems to think that it’s a god-given truth that it’s better to sit out for a month than play a month’s worth of basketball. Again, we’re not talking about 6 straight months of relentless ball. We’re talking the first month of the season. Yet he refuses to see that his argument is based in conjecture and has no merit in a serious discussion of an evaluation of Lin’s stats.

    32. Juany8

      arthurprescott2: AND then argue with your petty excuses then!(Felton needs time to mesh w/ the offense, Lin has no one else around him who can score, etc. etc. etc.). You guys are insufferable and make this GREAT community substantially worse every day.

      To be fair there has to be something to talk about during the summer haha. But I still don’t think this is as divisive or petty as some of the Melo arguments from early last season. I think just about everyone agrees they would have liked brining Lin back, even those who think he’ll be nothing more than an average point guard (as a Rockets fan, I’m pissed that we’re paying Lin more in the next 3 years than Lowry or Dragic, both of whom I think are better). The real problem is that someone like Z-man can’t defend the front office for letting Lin walk without a bunch of Linsanity fanboys vehemently attacking him despite pretty reasonable arguments. Unless you know for a fact that Lin will be a top 10 point guard and that Felton and Kidd will suck (none of which are a lock) then signing Lin to that “ridiculous” contract wasn’t a no brainer

    33. ephus

      The comparison that comes to mind for Ray Felton is Sherman Douglas. They have a similar height (6′ for Douglas, 6’1″ for Felton) and a tendency to carry extra weight, both are PGs with a good handle, surprising quickness and decent toughness. Douglas was a 2 point shooter than Felton, and Felton is a slightly better defensive rebounder.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=feltora01&y1=2012&p2=douglsh01&y2=1996#advanced::none

    34. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m not arguing that Lin is great. I have argued right here on this board that not matching the offer sheet was an absolutely terrible move, and makes no sense short- or long-term. Still, Lin is not Nash, Paul, or Rose.What I’m arguing against is Juany8?s belief that Lin’s numbers are somehow uniquely flawed due to what he believes is a significant set of unusual circumstances. I have presented Juany8 with a counterargument (that not playing regularly for a month could be detrimental to a player’s immediate efficiency due to conditioning problems) and he seems to think that it’s a god-given truth that it’s better to sit out for a month than play a month’s worth of basketball. Again, we’re not talking about 6 straight months of relentless ball. We’re talking the first month of the season. Yet he refuses to see that his argument is based in conjecture and has no merit in a serious discussion of an evaluation of Lin’s stats.

      Wow you don’t read very well do you?. First of all I agree that the front office should have signed Lin and made several comments about it, even in the passages you quoted. Second, my point is not that Lin’s stats are uniquely “flawed”, it’s that they’re uniquely different from other players. Your comment about how decreased playing time could have possibly hurt his conditioning actually only serves to prove my point, which is that the circumstances around Lin’s emergence are quite different from those of regular NBA rookies. Because those circumstances are so different (and possibly unique) I argue that you can’t assume that Lin will have a normal progression from his first real starts, nor can you assume that his actual averages for the season are indicative of what he would have averaged in a full season.

    35. arthurprescott2

      Hash it out guys – I’ll be back in October maybe. Have fun until then. Maybe one of you will think up a comprehensive organized argument by that point.

    36. Juany8

      My point, since you seem intent on misinterpreting my posts, is that making a projection out of Lin’s numbers last season is basically meaningless at this point. Beyond the small sample size, the large difference between how he started his career and how most rookies start their career means that Lin’s numbers should not be analyzed the same way as Irving’s first 25 starts, for example.

      Theoretically this means Lin might be even better than what he showed, although in my (non-objective) opinion he’s worse for the (non-objective) reasons I gave above. Regardless I think the Knicks ABSOLUTELY should have signed Lin, for future flexibility if nothing else.

    37. 2FOR18

      Juany8: Unless you know for a fact that Lin will be a top 10 point guard and that Felton and Kidd will suck (none of which are a lock) then signing Lin to that “ridiculous” contract wasn’t a no brainer

      Juany8:

      Regardless I think the Knicks ABSOLUTELY should have signed Lin, for future flexibility if nothing else.

      ?

    38. Brian Cronin

      Oh I completely agree – there is going to be a massive improvement just by not giving minutes to Douglas and Bibby. Just sorry we settled for “good enough” instead of “good.”

      Yeah, that’s my position in a nutshell, as well.

    39. Z-man

      My whole line of reasoning is based on the fact that we know too little about Lin to get all bent out of shape about not signing him and essentially replacing him with Felton. There have been plenty of good reasons to kill the owner and fornt office over the last 40 years, but this is just not one of them. Juany, I appreciate you saying this:

      Juany8: The real problem is that someone like Z-man can’t defend the front office for letting Lin walk without a bunch of Linsanity fanboys vehemently attacking him despite pretty reasonable arguments. Unless you know for a fact that Lin will be a top 10 point guard and that Felton and Kidd will suck (none of which are a lock) then signing Lin to that “ridiculous” contract wasn’t a no brainer

      This is an argument that clearly has two defensible sides to it, or indefensible sides, unless you have some measure of blind faith in one side or the other. Part of the problem is that Dolan and his underlings have such a long history of one fuck-up after another, there is a knee-jerk reaction to be cynical about every move that is made. I get that. However, I honestly believe that if all context were removed (including the emotions of the Linsanity games) and the non-signing was judged strictly on its logical and statistical merits, it is pretty close to a coin flip. I think the difference in terms of W-L and playoff record on this team between matching Lin and not matching will be at worst, minimally worse, and at best, significantly better. Either way, I’m very excited about the upcoming season.

    40. Z-man

      I don’t get why all the crybabies and ship-jumpers even bother wasting their time responding. Like you, Z, everyone knows how you feel and that are jumping ship, so why not just stop posting and you will no longer have to worry about being confused with me? Jowles, why do you even bother anymore? You clearly hate almost every player and the owner of this team, and think everyone that likes this team or disagrees with you in any way is an idiot, so why do you lower yourself to respond to people who are clearly beneath you? Maybe you and Landry should take your love affair to Toronto, since you enjoy his scintillating game and his WP48 so much. Melo and Felton are here for the next 3 years, and Lin will never wear a Knicks uniform again, so why keep pissin’ into the wind?

    41. Z-man

      Brian Cronin: Yeah, that’s my position in a nutshell, as well.

      If you are convinced that Lin is good (i.e. significantly better than Felton) based on what amounts to a speck of evidence, fine. Would you bet your house on it?

      I certainly would not take that bet in either direction. Maybe you can find a betting site on an over-under for Lin or for Lin vs. Felton and make some easy money.

    42. Brian Cronin

      Would you bet your house on it?

      Yes. I mean, if I had a house. ;) Would I bet Dolan’s money on it? Certainly. The Knicks would be better off with matching Lin than they are with not matching him.

      I certainly would not take that bet in either direction. Maybe you can find a betting site on an over-under for Lin or for Lin vs. Felton and make some easy money.

      If there was such a thing, sure, that would be easy money (Lin versus Felton, that is. The over/under on Lin would depend on, you know, where the over/under was).

    43. Brian Cronin

      Of course, I would add that it’d be unfair to Felton to compare him to Lin, as Lin will likely be the #1 option in Houston while Felton will be the #3 option in New York (and Felton will be sharing time with a quality point guard in Jason Kidd while Lin’s backup is the immortal Toney Douglas).

    44. etsuke

      Juany8: Besides, when Lin was winning alone he was either doing it against scrub teams (Minnesota, Toronto, New Jersey) or beating teams with ancient point guards who haven’t stopped fast penetrators in years (Kidd against Dallas, Fisher against LA).

      I believe Marion guarded Lin for most of the Dallas game. Barnes was on Lin in the Lakers game for a bit too.

    45. 2FOR18

      Z-man:
      I don’t get why all the crybabies and ship-jumpers even bother wasting their time responding. Like you, Z, everyone knows how you feel and that are jumping ship, so why not just stop posting and you will no longer have to worry about being confused with me? Jowles, why do you even bother anymore? You clearly hate almost every player and the owner of this team, and think everyone that likes this team or disagrees with you in any way is an idiot, so why do you lower yourself to respond to people who are clearly beneath you? Maybe you and Landry should take your love affair to Toronto, since you enjoy his scintillating game and his WP48 so much. Melo and Felton are here for the next 3 years, and Lin will never wear a Knicks uniform again, so why keep pissin’ into the wind?

      When you break up with your coke sniffing, cheating, robbing, VD giving GF, that doesn’t mean you stop hanging around your favorite places.

    46. Juany8

      Brian Cronin: My reading is that he’s saying that a reasonable person could go either way. He, personally, though, would have absolutely done it.

      Exactly Brian. As a fan who doesn’t have to spend the money, I can’t think of a single reason for letting Lin go, and I don’t think Lin is all that good. I can see why Dolan wouldn’t want to spend the money, however, or why his front office would balk at making their owner pay excessive amounts of money for someone they’re not totally sure will be many times better than his backups, especially since the way Lin’s contract is structured means a ton of extra tax payments (I guarantee 100% the Knicks match if the contract was 15-5-5 or 8-8-8 instead of 5-5-15, the new CBA really screwed the Knicks over)

    47. Will the Thrill

      Felton as the real #1 option would just make his numbers much, much worse. He plays like he is #1 anyway!

      Brian Cronin:
      Of course, I would add that it’d be unfair to Felton to compare him to Lin, as Lin will likely be the #1 option in Houston while Felton will be the #3 option in New York (and Felton will be sharing time with a quality point guard in Jason Kidd while Lin’s backup is the immortal Toney Douglas).

    48. ruruland

      dogrufus: Sorry, but this is pure unadulterated horseshit.We had the worst PG rotation in the league last year and now it’s significantly worse. Our PGs have an average age of about 34.Felton’s a lot worse than Lin and hasn’t been consistently above average at anything for 8 years.He is a MASSIVE downgrade from Lin in every way.Amazing how quickly this delusional fanbase forgets things like that.Felton fucking SUCKS.

      Kidd just signed his last contract, is pushing 40, couldn’t run a top 10 offense last year with one of the best scorers in NBA history, and has drug/alcohol/anger issues.He has ZERO ability to finish at the basket or penetrate.Oh, and his 3 point shot, which he can only take when Dirk gets him a wide open 3, has cratered the past two years.Kidd fucking SUCKS.

      Prigioni is 35 and has never seen an NBA court.By far the most likely reality is that he SUCKS.Marbury had the skill and talent to be a star in his youth and at 35 he’s long out of the NBA.But Prigioni is gonna be a serviceable backup?We’re buying this shit now?God, fuck this team.Frankly, fans who harbor optimism now are nothng more than Dolan’s enablers.

      Oh, it’s this kind of hyperbole that brings out the worst in people. You hate the team. You hate the players on the team. Why don’t you save your energy for something more positive? You’re making everyone miserable.

      Same goes for Z.

    49. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      Of course, I would add that it’d be unfair to Felton to compare him to Lin, as Lin will likely be the #1 option in Houston while Felton will be the #3 option in New York (and Felton will be sharing time with a quality point guard in Jason Kidd while Lin’s backup is the immortal Toney Douglas).

      And FWIW, and it’s worth something, Felton will likely be more comfortable as a tertiary player who orchestrates more of the offense and defers to others. So, in essence, you’re getting some short-term savings on diminishing returns.

      I have a lot of confidence that Kidd and Felton will be top notch at reading the game.

    50. 2FOR18

      BigBlueAL:
      Yankees just traded for Ichiro.Is Grunwald the new Yankee GM??lol

      Wow, this came out of leftfield! Not sure about Ichiro’s splits, but Jones is such a lefty masher I assume the 2 will platoon in LF? The DH spot seems to be too tied up in Ibanez and the partial resting of ARod, Jeter and Cano for Jones to get much time there.

    51. BigBlueAL

      Ichiro is hitting RHP’s still pretty decent this season and I read a stat where his Line Drive % is actually at a career high and his BABIP a career low so he has had some real bad luck this season.

      He is still excellent defensively so to be honest he should probably be the full-time LF or RF and have Jones and Ibanez do what they were supposed to do which is be the full-time DH’s.

    52. nicos

      You can say what you want about Felton but the bottom line is the Knicks had a top ten offense during his tenure here and not’s like he had nothing to do with it- he was the only playmaker on that team. If the Knick’s get back into the top ten in offensive efficiency with him at the helm, I won’t care what his WS is.

    53. Z-man

      2FOR18: When you break up with your coke sniffing, cheating, robbing, VD giving GF, that doesn’t mean you stop hanging around your favorite places.

      Even when she owns your favorite places?

    54. Z-man

      Brian Cronin: Yes. I mean, if I had a house. ;) Would I bet Dolan’s money on it? Certainly. The Knicks would be better off with matching Lin than they are with not matching him.If there was such a thing, sure, that would be easy money (Lin versus Felton, that is. The over/under on Lin would depend on, you know, where the over/under was).

      Don’t worry, Brian, when you’re homeless because of foolish bets like this, you can crash in my garage. ;-)

    55. 2FOR18

      Z-man: Even when she owns your favorite places?

      Well, it’s a process. I’ll probably be gone once I can get my bball fix from the Nets and Rockets once the preseason games start. I will leave you all to suffer the melo, JR and Felton years in peace. And I will await guys like jon abbey who will joining me when Shump is traded for Jarrett Jack next year and ruru is telling everyone how great Jack will mesh with the stars as a tertiary option.

    56. Z-man

      I was the first one on this site to trump Shump before the draft, and I was crushed when we were gonna let him go for Nash. Still, I understood the logic of that deal and would have been able to deal with it and stayed loyal to my beloved Knicks.

    57. ephus

      If Shumpert is going anywhere, it will be to the Clippers as part of a deal for Chris Paul before the trading deadline. I doubt that Chris Paul is going to insist on this trade, but if he does Shumpert (healthy) plus Chandler for Paul works under the salary cap. Combine it with DeAndre Jordan for Devin Harris, and the Clippers are still a contender.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=c2ao5sg

    58. dogrufus

      ruruland: Oh, it’s this kind of hyperbole that brings out the worst in people. You hate the team. You hate the players on the team. Why don’t you save your energy for something more positive? You’re making everyone miserable.

      Same goes for Z.

      Because I’m pissed off that the team that I’ve been emotionally invested in for twenty years is too stupid to live.

      So pissed off that I feel a desire to vent that frustration.

      Deal with it. If you’re going to be a battered wife, don’t complain about all the people telling you to leave your abuser.

    59. dogrufus

      ephus:
      If Shumpert is going anywhere, it will be to the Clippers as part of a deal for Chris Paul before the trading deadline.I doubt that Chris Paul is going to insist on this trade, but if he does Shumpert (healthy) plus Chandler for Paul works under the salary cap.Combine it with DeAndre Jordan for Devin Harris, and the Clippers are still a contender.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=c2ao5sg

      Meanwhile, we still fucking suck, because we now have the worst defense in the league, and no possibility of getting a starting caliber center for the next decade. Paul’s also not getting any younger or healthier.

      If we’d signed Lin we could have dealt him and Shump for Paul. The fact that other teams were willing to sign him to ridiculous deals means that he’d have been a big trading asset just based on marketability. But no, we’re too stupid to live and gave a massive asset away for free while signing a bunch of overpaid, over the hill shit for almost as much money.

      Are there really people here who don’t understand that KT, Kidd, and Camby having horrendous seasons, sub Toney Douglas caliber seasons is pretty much the most predictable basketball outcome in the world? Jesus, just giving up Jeffries for those guys is a giant net loss. At least we can count on them mostly not being healthy.

    60. ephus

      dogrufus: Meanwhile, we still fucking suck, because we now have the worst defense in the league, and no possibility of getting a starting caliber center for the next decade. Paul’s also not getting any younger or healthier.

      Actually, the Knicks will have a clean salary sheet for 2015-16 (even if they trade for Chris Paul), and could trade for (or sign) a center.

    61. Z

      Z-man:
      I don’t get why all the crybabies and ship-jumpers even bother wasting their time responding. Like you, Z, everyone knows how you feel and that are jumping ship, so why not just stop posting…

      Yeah, I know, I really should. But it’s not that easy to just walk away after 26 years… divorce is messy, and part of me wants to air it out in public.

      And it’s not just the Knicks that is hard to walk away from. I’ve been clicking on this site several times a day for years. And thorough the Isiah and subsequent Walsh rebuild years, this site was way more enjoyable to visit than MSG.

      But, yeah. I’m an all-in or all-out kind of personality, and I know that once I get off the train I won’t be back on it, no matter how great the Felton to Melo 1-2 game turns out to be.

      So I guess this is is goodbye and good luck to all the good folks I’ve met here. Mike, Brian, Jim, Kevin, Robert– you guys do the best sports writing I’ve read anywhere in the past few years. Please outgrow the Knicks and go national so I can read you again!

      And Owen, Caleb, jon abbey, Ben R., Big Blue Al, Frank O., Frank, Ephus, Ten Nelson, and THCJ– I’ve learned more about sports from you guys in the past few years than I ever cared to know :) They say NY has the most knowledgeable fans in the world. I always thought it was bunk, but if y’all are any indication, the IQ of the Knicks fan is in a different stratosphere.

      And to Ruru– I hope it all works out for you. Hopefully Carmelo Anthony was, in fact, put on this earth to win championships. There’s still time. (But I hope you won’t be too disappointed if he comes up a round or two short…)

      As for me, I really did love this game once. But that was a long time ago I think. It’s been more of a habit than anything else for too long now. I’m just glad I realized it before I wasted any more of my life…

    62. ephus

      I can’t make begrudge anyone who gets to his breaking point with Dolan and the Knicks. But I hope that anyone who is considering giving up reconsiders.

      The Knicks are a bond to Willis, Pearl, Clyde, Dollar Bill, Red (the good one, not the evil troll from Boston), Fuzzy, DeBusschere, Michael Ray, Sugar Ray, Patrick, Starks, LJ, Oak, Mase in your Face, Action Jackson, and most dear to my heart, Bernard. If you read that list and smiled at least once, there is reason to keep the faith, even if your only faith is that Dolan and his minions will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    63. dogrufus

      ephus: Actually, the Knicks will have a clean salary sheet for 2015-16 (even if they trade for Chris Paul), and could trade for (or sign) a center.

      So now the big hope is that 31 year old Chris Paul and whatever fading star big man that couldn’t get the max anywhere else will lead us to the promised land?

      Maybe that’d work if we hadn’t traded every single fucking draft pick going all in on STATue and Melonoma.

      I just can’t get over it. It’s like having 10,000 chips in poker, betting 9,999, and then folding when the opponent goes all in for one more.

      And we have pocket aces.

    64. dogrufus

      ephus:
      I can’t make begrudge anyone who gets to his breaking point with Dolan and the Knicks.But I hope that anyone who is considering giving up reconsiders.

      The Knicks are a bond to Willis, Pearl, Clyde, Dollar Bill, Red (the good one, not the evil troll from Boston), Fuzzy, DeBusschere, Michael Ray, Sugar Ray, Patrick, Starks, LJ, Oak, Mase in your Face, Action Jackson, and most dear to my heart, Bernard.If you read that list and smiled at least once, there is reason to keep the faith, even if your only faith is that Dolan and his minions will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

      And what reason is there to keep the faith? The secure knowledge that those great moments will never be repeated, and if by chance we get the opportunity for them to be, it’ll be snatched away by Dolan’s ego and incompetence?

      If you loved America, and some Hitler type seized power and transformed it into a Neo-Nazi terror empire, would you still be a patriot because the logo on the jersey is the same?

    65. ephus

      dogrufus: So now the big hope is that 31 year old Chris Paul and whatever fading star big man that couldn’t get the max anywhere else will lead us to the promised land?

      No! The big hope is that the Knicks win a championship. I think they moved further away when they did not match on Lin. I think it was a foolish decision, even with the salary cap implications. But just because Dolan does the wrong thing (again) does not mean all hope is lost. Chris Paul might force his way here. ‘Melo and STAT learn to be effective together. Shumpert may turn into Sane Sprewell. JR Smith may harness his awesome athletic talent. Kidd may have one more good year. TC may repeat his defensive performance and develop 8 feet of range. Novak may develop the ability to counter the hard closeout.

      Hope is a good thing.

    66. BigBlueAL

      Seriously, comparing Dolan’s ownership of the Knicks to some Hitler type taking over America and stuff?? WTF?? Man some of you guys have taken this Lin thing to damn personal.

      I’ll miss ya Z, wont be the same w/o seeing that Anthony Bonner pic every day :-)

    67. Kikuchiyo

      Thanks, ephus, for offering level-headed (and often wonderfully insightful) comments. I’m one who is “out” at this point because of the ugliness of the Dolan decision (the way it was made, the hints of something more like pique than business informing it, the disaster of getting nothing in return). Lin may never achieve the greatness (or even goodness) that he showed last season, but the Kidd DWI and Felton’s fatness are salt to the wounds. I wanted the Knicks to roll the dice with Lin, even if just for the good karma of rooting for the new guy.

      The tangled cable arrangements mean that I can’t get Knicks games anyway in the Hartford, CT area. I used Kora all season. Now I think I’ll get League Pass and watch around the league a lot more. I’ll try a year without the agony of watching every Knick game. I’ll look in from time to time and see how that goes.

      And Z-man, you just look like an ass calling people out for working through their response to this past week. It’s July, for God’s sake. It’s not like there is something urgent about the current team that needs discussing. (And dogrufus, Dolan is not a nazi. Don’t go there. That’s just terrible.)

      While I’m at it, here’s a reference point that helped with my decision. I have often been upset by moves from management that I disagreed with. I didn’t like seeing Gallo go, for example. But I never felt any interest in rooting for the Nuggets over the Knicks. For several reason, this move feels different. If I ask myself what I truly want to happen when the Rockets play the Knicks next season, I know that I want Lin to have a big game and for the Rockets to win. And once I’ve crossed that line, I know it’s time for a break.

    68. er

      amen these guys are going way overboard……i think we need a moratorium on this lin crying and knick bashing for a day or two please.

      who ever is leaving goodluck with the nets and rockets

      peace

      BigBlueAL:
      Seriously, comparing Dolan’s ownership of the Knicks to some Hitler type taking over America and stuff??WTF??Man some of you guys have taken this Lin thing to damn personal.

      I’ll miss ya Z, wont be the same w/o seeing that Anthony Bonner pic every day :-)

    69. AvonBarksdale

      Wow big moment for me as I’m first time poster with a little under a year reading this blog everyday like 8 times a day, 800 on game days and going through this season on this website was a totally new experience. Plus with Linsanity and D’Antoni leaving and Melo and the fire extinguisher, shump shump..all this amazing subject matter and I resisted but this Dolan being like hitler and people jumping ship on the team is crazy. Gotta say something in light of shocking recent developments. Lin will do his thing, I will watch and if Houston plays the knicks I’m hoping it’s close, he scores 55 points and the knicks win by one or if the season is shitty i hope we lose by 55. Felton is better for the team as a pg in the mix with melo and we know what he can do with stat. Lin can’t work with Melo and be another superstar in the league..and apparently JR smith would have a problem with him getting paid. I don’t care about business, I don’t care about what player is on the team, i’m a knicks fan cause clyde frazier and patrick ewing and yes even john starks…if you jump ship and we got a better season up ahead you care too much about this lin thing and we DEFINITELY have a better season up ahead. Watch what you little scabs say and stop smoking this lin crack pipe. Lin is amazing but his epic saga continues and so does ours, anyone thinking it would’ve been better if lin was here..your really forgetting woody ain’t in charge..melo is and melo quits on people he doesn’t like. stop with the lin needed to stay, you like more whack team dynamics? you want more drama? you think they would’ve figured it out? what if the knicks kept him games will really ruin next season if we let it…GO KNICKS

    70. Z-man

      Kikuchiyo: And Z-man, you just look like an ass calling people out for working through their response to this past week. It’s July, for God’s sake. It’s not like there is something urgent about the current team that needs discussing. (And dogrufus, Dolan is not a nazi. Don’t go there. That’s just terrible.)

      What?? People are working through not signing a 10-game wonder to a contract that would have cost management $40-60 million dollars in year 3, or $5 mill in cap room in years 4-5? And their continuing to be a Knicks fan depends on that? Sorry, IMO I’m not worried about anybody who is that shallow and starstruck that they need “time for healing” thinking that I’m an ass. I just hope that Z, dogrufus, 2for18, THJC, et. al. stick to their guns and abandon this team completely, even if they live up to ruru’s highest expectations, even if Felton puts up a WS/48 of .200+ while Lin winds up getting run out of Houston, even if they continue the 18-6 win ratio for the entire season and make a deep, exciting playoff run. At least Brian C, Juany, ephus, et.al. say that while they vehemently disagree with Dolan’s decision re: Lin, this is still a very good and very rootable team that should break the 50 win barrier for the first time in 15 or so years. Comparing this to divorce, bad girlfriends, or patriotism in Nazi Germany is beyond ignorant. At the end ot the day, whether I am right or wrong about Lin doesn’t alter the course of my life, it’s just fun to debate in the context of being a diehard Knicks fan. Either way, I’ve been rooting for the team for 45 years and hope to root for them for another 45 years, no matter who oens them or who they put on the floor, or how many times they break my heart with a bad deal, or a good deal that moves a favorite player of mine to another team.

    71. iserp

      Yeah, i am not sure why people here feel entitled to tell Dolan to spend whatever amount of money. There’s some rules to limit spending, and under those rules our GM decided that Felton, Kidd, Camby were worth more than Lin. It is not like Dolan is being cheap, he is going to pay heavy taxes for the next 3 years anyway, just not $60 million taxes in some unknown quantity. Our front office decided that it was worth more paying $30 million taxes (or so), on 3 proven players that covers more positions. They don’t have the upside of Lin, but they know what they are getting… and we are not that far away to be a contender. Choosing Lin over Felton / Kidd / Camby is gambling when we are already in a very good position. Of course you can say “choose both”, but that’s entitlement that NY has to be at a financial advantage over the rest of the teams.

    72. dogrufus

      1. Everyone please learn to comprehend an analogy please. I didn’t say Dolan was Hitler. I said that he was the basketball equivalent of Hitler. There is no genocide in basketball. I shouldn’t have to fucking spell that out. I simply said that to illustrate, by way of exaggeration, my sentiment that Dolan is the worst possible owner of a team, just as Hitler is the worst possible leader of a country. If we’re looking at an analysis of personality traits or character, I’d say he’s much more like George W. Bush than Hitler.

      2. WHO THE FUCK CARES HOW MUCH ANYTHING WOULD COST MANAGEMENT? Management has INFINITE money. Having Lin at any price would have given them INFINITE PLUS money. We have ZERO cap flexibility without Lin that we would have with Lin. If anything we have LESS fucking cap flexibility. You have to be some sort of paid shill to not understand how stupid it is to give up a high value asset for nothing. Think Lin sucks? So fucking what? Obviously other teams value him highly and he’s a huge trade chip. But no, none of these strategic factors can possibly pierce your iron concern for the well being of Jimmy’s wallet.

      Fine, I get it, you’re the ultimate toady and you wouldn’t abandon the Knicks if Dolan took a shit on your face every morning.

      Felton putting up WS/48 of .200+? Do you realize how fucking absurd that is?

      This is NOT a rootable team. It’s a bunch of over the hill, overpaid prima donna douchebags, Tyson Chandler, Steve Novak, and Shump (who will never be the same). We were already a 50 win team this year by pythagorean record, in a year where everything went terrible for us. If that’s all we are this year, with our roster maxed the fuck out with NO flexibility, it’s a regression. Fuck being Atlanta Hawks North. Fuck this team. And Fuck Dolan.

    73. Tony Pena

      2FOR18: Well, it’s a process.I’ll probably be gone once I can get my bball fix from the Nets

      who are also capped out.

    74. BigBlueAL

      I think whats really absurd are people saying fuck this team while admitting they are a 50 win team. There have been at least 3 people here who have said how stupid the management of this team is and fuck this and fuck that while acknowledging this is a team that should win 50+ games next season.

      If you wanna rip the moves they’ve made because you genuinely feel they havent helped this team and think they will just be a 45 win team and lose quickly in the 1st round (which some have stated as well) then fine I can live with your anger at this off-season. But again to be so pissed at this team for putting together a team you readily admit should be a 50+ win team?? After not having had a 50 win season since 1999-2000??

      Also spare me the Atlanta Hawks north bullshit. Since when have we been too spoiled a fan base to be insulted to have to root for a 50 win team that probably wont get past the 2nd round?? In the entire history of this franchise they have won 50 games in a season only 12 freaking times. 12 times!! Out of 66 seasons!!

    75. er

      boy i am happy im halfway across the world from this ignorance…amen to you AL these people are laughable…….again with this “rootable” shit…….root these nuts and leave if we are so dislikeable.

      Alot of people on here are starting to sound like school girls

      BigBlueAL:
      I think whats really absurd are people saying fuck this team while admitting they are a 50 win team.There have been at least 3 people here who have said how stupid the management of this team is and fuck this and fuck that while acknowledging this is a team that should win 50+ games next season.

      If you wanna rip the moves they’ve made because you genuinely feel they havent helped this team and think they will just be a 45 win team and lose quickly in the 1st round (which some have stated as well) then fine I can live with your anger at this off-season.But again to be so pissed at this team for putting together a team you readily admit should be a 50+ win team??After not having had a 50 win season since 1999-2000??

      Also spare me the Atlanta Hawks north bullshit.Since when have we been too spoiled a fan base to be insulted to have to root for a 50 win team that probably wont get past the 2nd round??In the entire history of this franchise they have won 50 games in a season only 12 freaking times.12 times!!Out of 66 seasons!!

    76. slovene knick

      It was a week or so ago I watched our youth national team with my son(6). And he asked out of the blue: daddy, where’s Jeremy?(we saw some linsanity games together so he knew him).
      Me: surprised and didn’t know what to say. I said; well he’s gone to Texas to be a rocket,the team where our Goran used to play. He said: who’s Goran daddy?:))
      It’s sad(what else is new) but i’ll stick around with the Knicks for some more.Don’t now about my son tho’:))

    77. johnno

      Flip side — the morning after the Felton trade, I told my 9 year old son (who has a Linsanity t-shirt) that Felton was coming back, and he ran to wake up his twin brother (who also has a Linsanity t-shirt) screaming, “Guess what!!! Raymond Felton is coming back!” When I told them that Jeremy Lin was leaving, their response was, “But Raymond Felton and Steve Novak are back, right?” When I said yes, they started jumping up and down hugging each other and screaming. While I am not quite as thrilled as they are, I think that I. and the Knicks, will get over losing Jeremy Lin.

      slovene knick: Me: surprised and didn’t know what to say. I said; well he’s gone to Texas to be a rocket,the team where our Goran used to play. He said: who’s Goran daddy?:))
      It’s sad(what else is new) but i’ll stick around with the Knicks for some more.Don’t now about my son tho’:))

    78. peanutgallery

      Wow — we’re so passionate, and saying it all for me, with feeling. Great place to think and vent.

    79. Z-man

      dogrufus: WHO THE FUCK CARES HOW MUCH ANYTHING WOULD COST MANAGEMENT? Management has INFINITE money. Having Lin at any price would have given them INFINITE PLUS money. We have ZERO cap flexibility without Lin that we would have with Lin. If anything we have LESS fucking cap flexibility. You have to be some sort of paid shill to not understand how stupid it is to give up a high value asset for nothing. Think Lin sucks? So fucking what? Obviously other teams value him highly and he’s a huge trade chip. But no, none of these strategic factors can possibly pierce your iron concern for the well being of Jimmy’s wallet.

      dogrufus: 1. Everyone please learn to comprehend an analogy please. I didn’t say Dolan was Hitler. I said that he was the basketball equivalent of Hitler. There is no genocide in basketball. I shouldn’t have to fucking spell that out. I simply said that to illustrate, by way of exaggeration, my sentiment that Dolan is the worst possible owner of a team, just as Hitler is the worst possible leader of a country. If we’re looking at an analysis of personality traits or character, I’d say he’s much more like George W. Bush than Hitler.

      And I find it incomprehensible that you don’t get how stupid it is to invoke Hitler to make a basketball analogy of any kind. The people that have done that here in the past have generally been angry, cynical, entitled, malcontent know-it-alls, at least that’s how their posts generally come off.

      dogrufus: WHO THE FUCK CARES HOW MUCH ANYTHING WOULD COST MANAGEMENT?

      Now, there’s a rational, fair minded statement!

    80. Z-man

      dogrufus: Fine, I get it, you’re the ultimate toady and you wouldn’t abandon the Knicks if Dolan took a shit on your face every morning.

      I can’t imagine that scenario ever unfolding. Sorry, your brilliance and eloquence are beyond my poor power to grasp.

      dogrufus: This is NOT a rootable team. It’s a bunch of over the hill, overpaid prima donna douchebags, Tyson Chandler, Steve Novak, and Shump (who will never be the same). We were already a 50 win team this year by pythagorean record, in a year where everything went terrible for us. If that’s all we are this year, with our roster maxed the fuck out with NO flexibility, it’s a regression. Fuck being Atlanta Hawks North. Fuck this team. And Fuck Dolan.

      Well, then you have no reason to waste your powerful intellect here, when we are obviously too stupid to be set straight, so why don’t you go do something that doesn’t involve cursing ad nauseum and shouting at the wind? Unless you get some kind of a sick joy out of being an irate, intolerant vacuous windbag on a blog dedicated to the team whose roster you now deeply hate and whose owner you are comparing to Hitler.

    81. Z-man

      johnno: Flip side — the morning after the Felton trade, I told my 9 year old son (who has a Linsanity t-shirt) that Felton was coming back, and he ran to wake up his twin brother (who also has a Linsanity t-shirt) screaming, “Guess what!!! Raymond Felton is coming back!” When I told them that Jeremy Lin was leaving, their response was, “But Raymond Felton and Steve Novak are back, right?” When I said yes, they started jumping up and down hugging each other and screaming. While I am not quite as thrilled as they are, I think that I. and the Knicks, will get over losing Jeremy Lin.

      My 13 yo son is a huge Knicks fan and was away at camp for 2 weeks. When I picked him up, he had heard the news and looked disappointed, but when I told him we got Felton back, he was like, “Oh? OK.” He remembers the excitement of Feltonsanity when the Knicks won 13 of 14 and Amare set a Knicks record for consecutive 30-pt games. He was also at the Linsanity game vs. the Hawks and came out of a scrum with Amare’s game-worn autographed sneaker.

      What he was saddest about? Losing $5 on a bet with his best friend that Lin would be back, based mainly on my say-so before I dropped him off.

    82. Degree_Absolute

      Z-man: Well, then you have no reason to waste your powerful intellect here, when we are obviously too stupid to be set straight, so why don’t you go do something that doesn’t involve cursing ad nauseum and shouting at the wind? Unless you get some kind of a sick joy out of being an irate, intolerant vacuous windbag on a blog dedicated to the team whose roster you now deeply hate and whose owner you are comparing to Hitler.

      You know what is not fun? Reading a Knicks message board where everyone has the same opinion. Stop trying cull the board of opinions you don’t agree with. If you don’t want to read posts from Z or dogrufus, don’t read them. Please refrain from telling people that the board would be better off without them here, because it is probably not true. The diversity of opinions is why a lot of people come to this site.

    83. Frank

      I’ve been watching this flame-war here and trying to stay out of it. But I guess I can’t. Truth is – with the possible exception of dogrufus, who has come out of nowhere and trolled like a champ, we’ll ALL be sucked back in if they are good. And they’ll be good. They might be REALLY good. We’ve all said it a million times, that this core was only 8-15 to start the season when they had no PG or SG play to speak of. But you know what that means? Since we ended up 36-30, that means we were 28-15 when we DID have any semblance of a PG. And we STILL had a “shooting guard” that managed to shoot <30% from 3 point range and <60% from the FT line.

      We had the #5 defense in the whole league, with our major weak points being zero interior defense when Tyson left the game, and very poor defense for the most part from our PG position (TD got torched regularly, Lin did not play very good defense for the most part, and Baron was playing at 50% health). Now we have Camby, and Felton is probably at least an average defender at the PG position.

      We had a below-average offense for the season, with our major weaknesses being turnovers and 3 point shooting. The 3 point shooting got a lot better after Novak and JR came (and Landry stopped chucking). And while we have lost Lin's high-efficiency forays into the paint (ridiculously high free throw rate), a full season of JR/Novak and Felton/Kidd (who are habitually in the top 10 in pure point rating every year) probably will make those two weaknesses into at least neutral factors, if not actual strengths.

      continued…

    84. johnno

      The thing that has been the most fun over the last two years is watching my sons, and my daughter, become huge basketball fans. How huge? They have become walking basketball encyclopedias — the other day, out of the clear blue, my son says, “Did you know that yesterday was Connie Hawkins’s 70th birthday? He was born on July 17, 1942.” During a 15 minute car ride, my other son peppered me non-stop with questions “How tall was Alonzo Mourning? How tall was Gus Johnson? How tall was Mark Eaton? How tall was Manute Bol? How tall was Dominique Wilkins? How tall was John Stockton?” When I told him to change the subject, he shifted to — “What number was Gerald Wilkins? What number was Rick Barry? What number was Michael Jordan on the Bulls? What number was Michael Jordan on the Wizards? What number was Wes Unseld?”

      Z-man: My 13 yo son is a huge Knicks fan and was away at camp for 2 weeks. When I picked him up, he had heard the news and looked disappointed, but when I told him we got Felton back, he was like, “Oh? OK.” He remembers the excitement of Feltonsanity when the Knicks won 13 of 14 and Amare set a Knicks record for consecutive 30-pt games. He was also at the Linsanity game vs. the Hawks and came out of a scrum with Amare’s game-worn autographed sneaker.What he was saddest about? Losing $5 on a bet with his best friend that Lin would be back, based mainly on my say-so before I dropped him off.

    85. Z-man

      Actually, I enjoy the diversity of opinions here as much as anybody. They are the ones that are saying they hate this team and its owner and have no interest in following this team anymore; all I’m doing is agreeing that if they feel that way, they shouldn’t. I have no power to cull this board, but if my reaction to those like dogrufus causes him to leave, so be it. If it causes him to post even more angrily and profanely, so be it. As long as Z, dogrufus, et.al. post here, I’ll respond how I see fit, and I’ll expect the same from them.

      Re: everybody having the same opinion, has my opinion on the Lin non-matching sounded anything like that of Brian C? THCJ? ephus? Caleb?

      If you don’t like my posts, you can take your own advice and not read them.

    86. Frank

      I loved having Jeremy Lin on the Knicks – his story very much inspired me, and I really wish we had kept him. We’ll never know the real story as to why he left – but probably is combination of Dolan tantrum, actual $ issues, and a naked assessment of how good they think he will be. And while I think he’s going to be a great player in this league, we should remember that we won during Linsanity not only because of his inspired offense, but because our DEFENSE was superior during that stretch – and it is hard to give a lot of credit to Jeremy Lin for that. The major differences were effort, and also getting Amare off the floor, since he was freaking horrible on both sides of the floor until after the ASB.

      Now we should also remember that maybe our best offensive month was in April, when Lin was NOT playing. Doing the math, we scored 101 ppg on roughly 93.8 possessions/game in April, which comes out to an offensive efficiency of 107.6. That would have made us #2 in the league if kept up for the whole season. In comparison, during the Linsanity month of February our we scored only 97.7 points on 97 possessions/game = 100.7, which if kept up for a full season, would have placed us 23rd in the league.

      It is not at all mysterious why we were so good in April. As I said above, our 3 point shooting came out of nowhere in April (41%, vs. ~30% in Jan/Feb and 33% in March), and our turnover rate declined tremendously. During February Linsanity, our TO-R was 16.8 (for a full season would have been worst in the league BY FAR), and during April, it was 14.3 (middle of pack). And like it or not, most of that had to do with Jeremy Lin.

      Now – I still think that Lin has a great future in this league and that we should have kept him if it were fiscally possible. What Dolan’s finances are, I have no idea, but I am accepting of the idea that even he doesn’t want to lose huge $. But we really might be better next year.

    87. Frank

      All that said – this season may really come down to how much Melo and Amare buy in on the defensive end. I think the offense is going to be good– at least in the top 10-12 now that TD/Landry/Jeffries are no longer playing at all, and with season-long competent PG play and 3 point shooting. I thought Amare actually played pretty well on defense after Woodson came on board, and Melo’s uptick in effort has been well-documented. Camby’s arrival also means that Amare has some protection even when Tyson is out.

    88. Juany8

      Degree_Absolute: You know what is not fun? Reading a Knicks message board where everyone has the same opinion. Stop trying cull the board of opinions you don’t agree with. If you don’t want to read posts from Z or dogrufus, don’t read them. Please refrain from telling people that the board would be better off without them here, because it is probably not true. The diversity of opinions is why a lot of people come to this site.

      What is actually not fun is being insulted on message boards while trying to have a serious discussion. Nor is it fun to read profanity filled posts about how stupid everyone is for not agreeing to a certain position. Like it or not, there is no conclusive evidence for either side of the Lin debate. Treating 25 starts as gospel is just as ignorant as dismissing them completely.

      Different opinions make this message board fun, posters who just want to come here to make other people miserable ruin it.

    89. Juany8

      Frank: All that said – this season may really come down to how much Melo and Amare buy in on the defensive end. I think the offense is going to be good– at least in the top 10-12 now that TD/Landry/Jeffries are no longer playing at all, and with season-long competent PG play and 3 point shooting. I thought Amare actually played pretty well on defense after Woodson came on board, and Melo’s uptick in effort has been well-documented. Camby’s arrival also means that Amare has some protection even when Tyson is out.

      If Amar’e seriously buys in on defense and starts doing the little things right, this team could be incredible. He has the physique of Dwight Howard, he really should be close to elite on that end, or at least above average. That he’s one of the worst big men defenders in the league is sad, especially since he still doesn’t fit that well offensively with Chandler (seriously why would he not fit in with Melo? Because they’re forced to shoot less??) since they both need pick and roll touches to be effective, and Amar’e is actually capable of spacing the floor (though he was terrible last year) which means when they are both in it just makes more sense to run the pick and roll with Chandler than Amar’e (because Chandler is a worse offensive player, not because he’s more efficient)

    90. Z-man

      Juany8: What is actually not fun is being insulted on message boards while trying to have a serious discussion. Nor is it fun to read profanity filled posts about how stupid everyone is for not agreeing to a certain position. Like it or not, there is no conclusive evidence for either side of the Lin debate. Treating 25 starts as gospel is just as ignorant as dismissing them completely.Different opinions make this message board fun, posters who just want to come here to make other people miserable ruin it.

      Well put, Juany.

    91. johnno

      Here’s the thing — the “conventional wisdom” is that Melo, Amare and, to a slightly lesser extent, Landry Fields are horrible defensive players. Yet, all three played major minutes and the Knicks were fifth in the league in defensive efficiency last year. Maybe they are not as bad as most people say that they are, especially when you consider the fact that, for more than half of last season, they had an offensive-minded coach. I realize that Tyson Chandler is a great defender, but even he would not be capable of offsetting three defensive sieves. I think that much of the criticism of Melo and Amare on the defensive end arise out of what Formido would call “confirmation bias.”

      Juany8: If Amar’e seriously buys in on defense and starts doing the little things right, this team could be incredible. He has the physique of Dwight Howard, he really should be close to elite on that end, or at least above average. That he’s one of the worst big men defenders in the league is sad, especially since he still doesn’t fit that well offensively with Chandler (seriously why would he not fit in with Melo? Because they’re forced to shoot less??) since they both need pick and roll touches to be effective, and Amar’e is actually capable of spacing the floor (though he was terrible last year) which means when they are both in it just makes more sense to run the pick and roll with Chandler than Amar’e (because Chandler is a worse offensive player, not because he’s more efficient)

    92. Z-man

      I would not be surprised if we wind up missing Landry more than Lin. Not so much because I think Landry will play better than Lin, but that our replacements for Lin are better than those for Landry. I killed Landry last year, but mainly for his poor shooting, less so for his overall play. He’s smart, he hustles, and is a good rebounder. Probably spoiled by being a starter but should be a solid bench player, even if his shooting numbers only marginally improve (they can’t possibly get worst, no?) Ironically, he had his best stretch of basketball when Felton was running the show.

    93. Z-man

      johnno: The thing that has been the most fun over the last two years is watching my sons, and my daughter, become huge basketball fans. How huge? They have become walking basketball encyclopedias — the other day, out of the clear blue, my son says, “Did you know that yesterday was Connie Hawkins’s 70th birthday? He was born on July 17, 1942.” During a 15 minute car ride, my other son peppered me non-stop with questions “How tall was Alonzo Mourning? How tall was Gus Johnson? How tall was Mark Eaton? How tall was Manute Bol? How tall was Dominique Wilkins? How tall was John Stockton?” When I told him to change the subject, he shifted to — “What number was Gerald Wilkins? What number was Rick Barry? What number was Michael Jordan on the Bulls? What number was Michael Jordan on the Wizards? What number was Wes Unseld?”

      Yeah, fun part of life. Unfortunately for my son, he’s rooting for the same teams that brought me so much joy at his age: Knicks, Mets and Jets. My daughters are much smarter, going against their dad and rooting for the Yanks.

    94. Frank

      johnno:
      Here’s the thing — the “conventional wisdom” is that Melo, Amare and, to a slightly lesser extent, Landry Fields are horrible defensive players.Yet, all three played major minutes and the Knicks were fifth in the league in defensive efficiency last year.Maybe they are not as bad as most people say that they are, especially when you consider the fact that, for more than half of last season, they had an offensive-minded coach.I realize that Tyson Chandler is a great defender, but even he would not be capable of offsetting three defensive sieves.I think that much of the criticism of Melo and Amare on the defensive end arise out of what Formido would call “confirmation bias.”

      I think Landry is an average defensive player, Melo is a good defensive player when he wants to be, and that Amare has to be fully engaged to even be close to average. Have you ever watched Amare try to cover a pick and roll? Until the second half of the year, it was comical. Last year in the playoffs against the Celtics, there was an article on a Celtics blog on how they would go after Amare every single time down to floor on PNR plays, and that they were laughing in his face at how badly he played them. And if you watch any of our recent games against the Spurs, their whole offense is basically to involve Amare in PNR no matter who he’s covering.

      Amare has great defensive tools, but either he’s never been taught defense (he’s said that himself in the past – not surprising since most of his career he’s been under MDA) or he just has no awareness of spacing etc. Being a great defender is a skill that is not totally dependent on physical attributes (although obviously they help). Hopefully some renewed focus on defensive fundamentals will make it so he’s not such an easy target for opposing offenses.

    95. Z-man

      Seems like Woodson was starting to hold him accountable, but 2 things bothered me about Amare’s D last year, even considering his history as a bad defender:

      1. he looked like he couldn’t really bend at the waist and stood straight up a lot, making it nearly impossible for him to stay in front of quicker guys, even when favoring their strong side. If his back is still stiff, that’s not gonna change

      2. He just seems to have slow reactions as a help defender, either being frozen or arriving too late. I don’t think it’s laziness (Amare wouldn’t be able to have overcome all that he has if he was fundamentally lazy) as much as befuddlement. I don’t know how you change that at this stage of his career.

      One thing seems clear, Woodson is not gonna let him blow defensive assignments without harsh criticism. That will be a big change from D’Antoni, who never, ever criticized Amare publicly. And for a change, he has three grizzled defensive standouts to glare at him when he dows his matador thing in Kidd, Camby, and Thomas.

    96. Juany8

      johnno: Here’s the thing — the “conventional wisdom” is that Melo, Amare and, to a slightly lesser extent, Landry Fields are horrible defensive players. Yet, all three played major minutes and the Knicks were fifth in the league in defensive efficiency last year. Maybe they are not as bad as most people say that they are, especially when you consider the fact that, for more than half of last season, they had an offensive-minded coach. I realize that Tyson Chandler is a great defender, but even he would not be capable of offsetting three defensive sieves. I think that much of the criticism of Melo and Amare on the defensive end arise out of what Formido would call “confirmation bias.”

      I agree that Melo gets a bad rep as a defender due mainly to confirmation bias, he certainly doesn’t try as consistently on that end as he should, but when he was locked in at the end of the year he was outright elite defensively. Amar’e, on the other hand, was pretty bad all year, and quite often it’s because he’s not really aware on that end (or for rebounds). He just doesn’t hustle and pay attention on defense like he should, and while I doubt he’ll become an elite defender at this point in his career, simply caring more and hustling more will result in him becoming at least average. Right now he’s a total liability, which means teams will actually plan their offense around attacking Amar’e. You can’t have outright liabilites on that end if you hope to do good, especially from your bigs

    97. Jafa

      2FOR18: Well, it’s a process.I’ll probably be gone once I can get my bball fix from the Nets and Rockets once the preseason games start.I will leave you all to suffer the melo, JR and Felton years in peace.And I will await guys like jon abbey who will joining me when Shump is traded for Jarrett Jack next year and ruru is telling everyone how great Jack will mesh with the stars as a tertiary option.

      +1. Only I’ll still watch the Knicks, but with less of my heart vested as I’ll be watching the Nets and Rockets as well. Also, I absolutely love OKC and thoroughly enjoy the Spurs.

      Just like that, I’m spreading my wings and not staking all my basketball heart on the Knicks anymore.

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