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Thursday, November 27, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 16 2012)

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Jeremy Lin May Not Return to the Knicks (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 04:55:31 GMT)
    Five months after Linsanity took New York and the N.B.A. by storm, it’s possible the Knicks may decide not to match Jeremy Lin’s three-year, $25.1 million offer sheet from Houston.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Kidd Charged With Drunken Driving (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 05:07:20 GMT)
    Jason Kidd, the newly acquired star point guard, crashed his sport utility vehicle into a telephone pole and sustained minor injuries early Sunday in the Hamptons.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Raptors Happy to Have Fields (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 05:06:42 GMT)
    Coach Mike Woodson and General Manager Glen Grunwald did not comment Sunday on the Knicks allowing Landry Fields to leave the team. Toronto General Manager Bryan Colangelo did however speak about Fields, his newest acquisition.

  • [New York Daily News] Boozin’ALL players never wise up  (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:00:17 GMT)
    People keep coming out of bars legally drunk, dumb enough to think they can drive a car. The latest, according to the Southampton police, is one of the smartest basketball players of all time.

  • [New York Daily News] Fan starts on-Lin petition (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:40:30 GMT)
    Want Jeremy Lin to stay with the Knicks? You may have to go on lin, er, on line.Created by someone called I Am Linsane, there’s an Internet petition designed to convince James Dolan to match the Rockets’ “ridiculousâ? offer.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo: Up to Knicks to match ‘ridiculous’ Lin offer (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:40:11 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony said Sunday it’s up to the New York Knicks to decide if they want to match the “ridiculous contractâ? that the Houston Rockets have offered Jeremy Lin.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Knicks should let Jeremy Rocket off to Houst-Lin (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:39:47 GMT)
    Off the events of late Saturday night/early Sunday morning, the Knicks’ much-ballyhooed mentoring program, where future Hall of Famer Jason Kidd is supposed to tutor prize student Jeremy Lin in the finer points of playing the point guard position, is hereby canceled.

  • [New York Daily News] Kidd crashes car, is busted for DWI (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:25:05 GMT)
    Basketball star Jason Kidd was arrested for driving drunk on Long Island early Sunday when he crashed his luxury SUV into a telephone pole after partying at a club, police and sources said.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Lin's uncertain future — and the Knicks' (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:26:42 EDT)
    WASHINGTON, D.C. — Patrick Ewing doesn’t know what the Knicks are going to do about Jeremy Lin. He’s also not all in on Lin being a starting point guard just yet.
    “I don’t know. I was very happy for him, but he only played 25 games, so it’s very hard to say,” he told ESPN New York on Sunday during a USA Basketball and U.S. Military sports clinic for kids at George Washington University. “You wish him luck, he’s a nice kid, he’s very personable.

  • [New York Post] Knicks soap opera continues with Lin contract talks, Kidd’s DWI arrest (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 04:33:19 -0500)
    LAS VEGAS â?? Is Jeremy Lin worth $58.3 million in 2014-15?
    If the Knicks were to match the Rockets’ poison-pill offer sheet, under the new CBA’s vicious luxury-tax penalties, owner James Dolan could pay that amount for Lin just for the 2014-15 season.
    That astronomical bill is why the…

  • [New York Post] Jeremy still wants to come back (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 01:42:17 -0500)
    LAS VEGAS â?? Though he sure didn’t act like it, Jeremy Lin still wants to be a Knick.
    A Lin confidant, contacted yesterday, was asked whether Lin wanted the Knicks to match the Rockets’ revised $25 million offer sheet.
    “Yes, he does,” the person said.
    Lin’s high school coach…

  • [New York Post] Carmelo calls Rockets’ rich offer â??ridiculous’ (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 04:08:16 -0500)
    WASHINGTON â?? Not long ago, it was ridiculous to think Jeremy Lin would not be back in a Knicks uniform next season. Now, Lin could be on his way out of town â?? thanks to what Carmelo Anthony thinks is a “ridiculousâ? contract.
    That was the word Anthony used to describe Lin…

  • [New York Post] J.R.: Pact would cause jealousy (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 01:02:01 -0500)
    LAS VEGAS â?? J.R. Smith believes the Knicks have moved on without Jeremy Lin and said he thinks there could have been jealousies regarding the young point guard’s new contract if he rejoined the Knicks.
    The remarks come two days after Smith said he wanted to be paired up…

  • [New York Post] Greek pick part of Felton swap (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 01:38:35 -0500)
    LAS VEGAS â?? So much for the Knicks’ 2012 draft.
    The Knicks will give up second-round pick Kostas Papanikolaou in the proposed Raymond Felton sign-and-trade with Portland, The Post has learned. The small forward from Greece was selected 48th overall on June 28.
    Papanikolaou will not play in the NBA next…

  • 449 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 16 2012)

    1. Frank O.

      Look, I think if you were going to sign Lin, you were going all in. It meant you believed the kid’s better play is who he is.
      If you believe he is the linchpin to winning a championship with this crew, you look at that balloon payment as the cost of having a top 10 point guard in the league.
      Also, if you have a win now strategy, and they do, Ray Felton and Kidd are not the guys that get you there. It would be a nice package of guards, however, with Lin on the team. It also takes care of your 2 guard issues. Smith and Kidd at the deuce is pretty nice, with shump in the wings.

      Now, I agree with Abbey that Lin is a wide open player who takes more contact than is necessary and, without a change, likely ensures he will miss part of the season for injury. This viewpoint is bolstered by Kidd’s comments, who noted that Lin plays all out all the time, and he hoped to teach Lin to pace himself more. Clearly, Kidd sees the same issue, and over 82 games, you need to respect the giants in the league and preserve yourself for those important games.

      I want to see the Knicks keep Lin. I think the marketing bonanza for the team over these three years would more than cover the luxury tax, but we’re betting with someone else’s money. I think this was designed to make the decision tough on the Knicks. Mission accomplished. Given the rockets doctoring their first offer, it is in the Knicks’ interests to keep as silent as possible until they are ready to decide. We’ll know tomorrow.

    2. RicanKnick

      I can’t believe much of the non-sense I’m reading in this board. Sorry but I’m kind of dissapointed. I know that Felton is not a super star pg and that JKidd is almost as old as Spike Lee…BUT…Jeremy Lin is not the second coming of Magic Johnson. Heck!!! He ain’t even the 2nd coming of JKidd. 25 starts!!!! No playoff experience!!! Lots of “IFS” to his game…and people want to pay him 15m a year plus God knows how many more millions in tax…like he’s some freaking Michael Jordan!!!! Common man!!! I loved Linsanity, but I love my team first. Been a Knicks fan since 1989, I’m 37 yrs old. No player comes before the team, not even a back up pg. If Lin wanted to be a Knick, he wouldn’t have restructured the offer sheet. STOP crying over him. I would have loves for Lin to come back…BUT for the right money. My 2 ¢ents….

    3. Brian Cronin

      It is not $15 million a year. It is an average of $8.3 million a year. Heck, the first two seasons are for $10 million combined. The final season is for $15 million, but as we detailed in the last thread, the Knicks can easily avoid onerous tax payments if Lin turns out to be not so good. And if he turns out to be very good, then they’ll either pay the tax or find out some other way of cutting salary.

    4. Sovereign

      Brian Cronin:
      It is not $15 million a year. It is an average of $8.3 million a year. Heck, the first two seasons are for $10 million combined.

      Yeah, that. I don’t understand why everyone is NOT seeing this. Not even the Rockets are crazy enough to pay Lin 15mil a year (although, with the way their off-season has looked so far, they just might be desperate enough in a bit, heh). Nobody is paying him 15mil a year, they are paying him ~25mil over three years, just structured in a way to make that as bad as possible for the Knicks if they match.

    5. RicanKnick

      I know it’s 15m in yr 3…but I think that’s over paying. Sorry that’s my humble opinion. And btw it’s 15m plus the luxury tax. I’d pay that for a Lebron, Durant, Kobe kind of player. Is he???

    6. Spree8nyk8

      I know the tax makes it different but the deal the Knicks wanted to accept averages out to 7.25m per year. The deal they find impossible to accept averages 8.33. so 1.08 on average keeps the knicks from signing a cashcow.

      who writes this shit?

    7. johnno

      And everyone is missing the point — it’s not the money. The Knicks feel that they can’t trust Lin — and rightfully so. He made Mike Woodson look like an idiot by changing the deal after Woodson announced that he was the starter.

    8. Spree8nyk8

      RicanKnick:
      I know it’s 15m in yr 3…but I think that’s over paying. Sorry that’s my humble opinion. And btw it’s 15m plus the luxury tax. I’d pay that for a Lebron, Durant, Kobe kind of player. Is he???

      Lmao, we already pay 3 guys who aren’t Lebron, lebron type money already.

    9. Sovereign

      RicanKnick:
      If Lin wanted to be a Knick, he wouldn’t have restructured the offer sheet.

      I am pretty sure the restructuring of the sheet was a decision on the part of Houston’s FO, not that Lin went back there to ask them to up it.

    10. Frank

      ess-dog:
      Sounds like Lin’s name and inventory are off the Knicks’ site.Coincidence??

      holy #$%^@# you’re right. it’s all gone.

    11. Spree8nyk8

      johnno:
      And everyone is missing the point — it’s not the money.The Knicks feel that they can’t trust Lin — and rightfully so.He made Mike Woodson look like an idiot by changing the deal after Woodson announced that he was the starter.

      How exactly did Lin change the deal? Are you under the impression that he signed two offers? Bc that is incorrect. He agreed to an offer, the knicks spent 3 days mocking it saying they’d match up to a billion. Houston sees this and says guess we have to increase it. Maybe you should blame the management for saying go out and find an offer. Maybe if they picked up the phone at 12:01 and made an offer this could have been avoided. Bottom line is that they felt like since everyone knew they would match that they had a shot at getting him cheap and they blew it. Are you really gonna blame a kid for cashing in on his first big payday? When have you ever taken less money to do your job? And are you seriously telling me that if you went on an interview with a potential new employer and they offered you X, then your current employer said “hey we’ll match that” and the other place said “we want you bad we’ll pay more”. That you would turn it down? If that is the case why did you go on the interview?

    12. The Raging Platypus

      Sovereign: I am pretty sure the restructuring of the sheet was a decision on the part of Houston’s FO, not that Lin went back there to ask them to up it.

      This whole “Lin went back and asked the Houston FO to up the guaranteed money” story has been making a lot of waves – isn’t this just hearsay? Does anyone know if this is actually the truth? This seems to be the lynchpin in most arguments that castigate Lin on a personal level, so I really do wonder if it’s just some fantasy-land PR spin to keep the media machine running.

    13. SSS

      Frank: holy #$%^@# you’re right. it’s all gone.

      Which is exactly what I’d do if my goal was to launch a media campaign aimed at fooling(scaring?) the Rockets into thinking we won’t match. Of course, that’d never be my goal, because its petty and unproductive, but I’m also not in charge.

    14. Sovereign

      The Raging Platypus: This whole “Lin went back and asked the Houston FO to up the guaranteed money” story has been making a lot of waves – isn’t this just hearsay?Does anyone know if this is actually the truth? This seems to be the lynchpin in most arguments that castigate Lin on a personal level, so I really do wonder if it’s just some fantasy-land PR spin to keep the media machine running.

      I am yet to see a credible source claim that Lin went back to the Rockets to get a higher offer, but this has been spinning all over the place, mostly by word-of-mouth in comments on various articles, from what I can tell.

      Honestly, I think that would so out of character that I put very little faith into this being actually correct.

      Far more likely, in my opinion, that Houston decided that the Knicks are likely to match and they really want Lin, thus resulting in the new offer which really sucks for the Knicks tax-wise. At that point, blaming the kid for taking the higher deal is totally hypocritical (who in their right mind wouldn’t do it?).

    15. Frank

      The Raging Platypus: This whole “Lin went back and asked the Houston FO to up the guaranteed money” story has been making a lot of waves – isn’t this just hearsay?Does anyone know if this is actually the truth? This seems to be the lynchpin in most arguments that castigate Lin on a personal level, so I really do wonder if it’s just some fantasy-land PR spin to keep the media machine running.

      Well, there was that quote from his high school coach that JLin was in shock that the Knicks were thinking about letting him go – that sounds a little like someone who thought he could keep taking from the candy jar without any repercussions. I’m pretty sure his high school coach isn’t controlled by MSG.

    16. Spree8nyk8

      The Raging Platypus: This whole “Lin went back and asked the Houston FO to up the guaranteed money” story has been making a lot of waves – isn’t this just hearsay?Does anyone know if this is actually the truth? This seems to be the lynchpin in most arguments that castigate Lin on a personal level, so I really do wonder if it’s just some fantasy-land PR spin to keep the media machine running.

      Somehow people think it is somehow more believable that Lin who started 25 games got a 30m dollar offer from houston and 3 days later went back and said “can I have more instead?”. Gimme a fucking break. The knicks ran their mouths after Houston verbally agreed with Lin and Houston turned around and said Ok, well we can fix that. Lin was caught in the middle, and maybe he could have taken less money for NY. But then again maybe he knows that after being cut twice and D leagued 4 times that you don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

    17. Frank

      by the way, if there were 20-to-1 on odds on the Knicks matching, Lin firing his agent afterward saying he got bad advice, then hiring CAA instead — I’d put $100 down.

    18. RicanKnick

      Two of them are on the Dream Team. One of them was DPOY…. compare that to 25 starts, no playoffs exp. Then laugh all you want!

      Spree8nyk8: Lmao, we already pay 3 guys who aren’t Lebron, lebron type money already.

    19. Sovereign

      SSS: Which is exactly what I’d do if my goal was to launch a media campaignaimed at fooling(scaring?) the Rockets into thinking we won’t match.Of course, that’d never be my goal, because its petty and unproductive, but I’m also not in charge.

      I am convinced the Rockets really do want Lin (and restructured the deal so that the Knicks would have a bigger dilemma about matching the offer), so doing something like trying to play chicken against them is totally idiotic: They want the Knicks not to match.

      So I don’t know whether any campaign to fool or scare them is really going to do anything other than piss off fans.

    20. SSS

      Sovereign: I am convinced the Rockets really do want Lin (and restructured the deal so that the Knicks would have a bigger dilemma about matching the offer), so doing something like trying to play chicken against them is totally idiotic: They want the Knicks not to match.

      So I don’t know whether any campaign to fool or scare them is really going to do anything other than piss off fans.

      Then they’d be getting the Rockets’ hopes up before snatching Lin back away from them at the last minute. And throwing off their planning for 3 days at least.

      This is the lie that I will tell myself until the deadline for matching passes. Which may very well be the same moment when the NBA goes back to being dead to me. They’ve really accumulated a pretty unlikeable cast of characters.

    21. The Raging Platypus

      RicanKnick:
      Two of them are on the Dream Team. One of them was DPOY…. compare that to 25 starts, no playoffs exp. Then laugh all you want!

      FYI, I don’t know if you missed this, but Brian addressed the luxury tax concerns on that 3rd year. The stretch provision affords them a way of avoiding that luxury tax hit, so it boils down to whether you believe Jeremy is worth a 5/5/15 million dollar contract. That’s basically 8 million per year, so you’d be gambling that he plays at a level that he’s underpaid the first two years and overpaid the 3rd. So if you think he can play like a top 15 PG, then yeah, you should want to bring him back.

      But it doesn’t sound like you think he can play at that level, so your mileage most definitely varies in this case. =)

    22. SSS

      Sovereign: So I don’t know whether any campaign to fool or scare them is really going to do anything other than piss off fans.

      Remember, we’re talking about Dolan here. Please check your logic at the door.

    23. Frank

      Sovereign: I am convinced the Rockets really do want Lin (and restructured the deal so that the Knicks would have a bigger dilemma about matching the offer), so doing something like trying to play chicken against them is totally idiotic: They want the Knicks not to match.

      So I don’t know whether any campaign to fool or scare them is really going to do anything other than piss off fans.

      I actually sort of think the Knicks aren’t totally sure what they’re going to do. I am solidly of the opinion that somehow Lin pissed off Dolan, Dolan went ballistic, and Grunwald is trying to turn it around somehow. He made the deal for Felton just to make sure he got some value out of Gadz’s contract and to lock another PG down in case they let Lin go.

      But my hope is slowly drifting away.

    24. Brian Cronin

      You Maniacs! You blew it up!

      Seriously, I feel worse about this than the Camby trade, which was the all-time worst. At least with the Camby deal, you could kind of sort talk yourself into Antonio McDyess, ya know?

      By the way, you guys catch Camby talking a little shit about that trade the other day? Something like, “They dealt me for McDyess and now he’s not even in the league.” Dude, it was ten years ago!

    25. Sovereign

      SSS: Remember, we’re talking about Dolan here.Please check your logic at the door.

      Right. Thanks for the reminder :D

    26. Frank

      SSS: They’ve really accumulated a pretty unlikeable cast of characters.

      My memory of Linsanity was obviously Lin playing great, but Jeffries jumping around and Novak hitting 3’s. Now JJ is gone (and I’ll miss him, amazingly), Novak is probably super-depressed, and Lin will probably be gone.

      South Park is definitely going to do an episode on James Dolan as the devil.

    27. Spree8nyk8

      RicanKnick:
      Two of them are on the Dream Team. One of them was DPOY…. compare that to 25 starts, no playoffs exp. Then laugh all you want!

      The deal is 8.3 per year. it’s not even close to the same ballpark.

    28. SSS

      Frank: My memory of Linsanity was obviously Lin playing great, but Jeffries jumping around and Novak hitting 3?s. Now JJ is gone (and I’ll miss him, amazingly), Novak is probably super-depressed, and Lin will probably be gone.

      South Park is definitely going to do an episode on James Dolan as the devil.

      And on top of that, Melo and JR are running their mouths, Kidd is drinking and driving (and bringing back memories of his former issues with his wife) and Felton is back and looking round as ever. Of course, we still have Tyson and Shump, thankfully (for now?).

    29. Spree8nyk8

      Brian Cronin:
      You Maniacs! You blew it up!

      Seriously, I feel worse about this than the Camby trade, which was the all-time worst. At least with the Camby deal, you could kind of sort talk yourself into Antonio McDyess, ya know?

      By the way, you guys catch Camby talking a little shit about that trade the other day? Something like, “They dealt me for McDyess and now he’s not even in the league.” Dude, it was ten years ago!

      You say the Camby trade as if Camby ended up being the best player we lost in that trade lol. We lost Camby AND NENE in that trade.

    30. Spree8nyk8

      I really hope Shump smartens up and moves on to a better situation the first chance he has.

    31. DS

      I’ve seen some bad pun headlines in the tabloids over the years but “Lawrence: Knicks should let Jeremy Rocket off to Houst-Lin” is prob. the worst.

    32. Brian Cronin

      You say the Camby trade as if Camby ended up being the best player we lost in that trade lol. We lost Camby AND NENE in that trade.

      Heck, it theoretically could have been Amar’e! STAT was picked after that pick.

      But the Knicks said who they were picking if they kept the pick. They were planning on taking Chris Wilcox. It is a typical Knick thing. Even if they hadn’t made one of their worst trades ever, they still would have fucked it up.

      Like here, they’re gifted a guy like Lin from the heavens and then given the opportunity to keep him without using the MLE and they then let him go. No matter what seemingly goes their way, they’ll find a way to fuck it up.

    33. DS

      Brian Cronin:
      Imagine the pressure on Shump now. “You sure as hell better become amazing, because you’re the only chance we got.”

      Uh, Shump is already amazing. :)

    34. Brian Cronin

      I’ve seen some bad pun headlines in the tabloids over the years but “Lawrence: Knicks should let Jeremy Rocket off to Houst-Lin” is prob. the worst.

      And the absurdity is that Lawrence hasn’t said shit about how the Knicks shouldn’t match the offer until the news leaks that they might not, at which point he takes a contrarian opinion to get attention. At least SAS has the excuse that he is a CAA errand boy. I don’t begrudge him for it, honestly. They hooked him up in letting him break Lebron/Bosh/Wade in Miami.

    35. Caleb

      I’d give less than 50-50 odds on Shump being in a Knick uniform October 2013.

      Finally got around to reading Stephen A… Assuming Melo is the source, he comes off as even more of an ass than you’d think.

      But talk about pressure… either the Knicks are winning 50 and he’s in the MVP debate or there are going to be some ugly, ugly crowds come February.

    36. Spree8nyk8

      Hopefully Shump gets to play on a good team someday. I’d really hate for him to spend his whole career here and never get to play for a championship.

    37. Spree8nyk8

      Brian Cronin: And the absurdity is that Lawrence hasn’t said shit about how the Knicks shouldn’t match the offer until the news leaks that they might not, at which point he takes a contrarian opinion to get attention. At least SAS has the excuse that he is a CAA errand boy. I don’t begrudge him for it, honestly. They hooked him up in letting him break Lebron/Bosh/Wade in Miami.

      He wasn’t the person who broke that story.

    38. bobneptune

      Frank O.:

      Smith and Kidd at the deuce is pretty nice, with shump in the wings.

      Smith and Kidd at the 2 is pretty nice? It is a black hole!

      Let me remind you 30 teams had a chance at Mr Smith’s services and 29 declined. There probably is a pretty good reason for that beyond his career 0.92 WS. And you are asking this guy to play 36 minutes a game now. Never came close to that in his career. And his playoff stats are awful with a good sample of 40 games @25 minutes a game.

      Kidd is in rapid decline and can’t play any extended minutes especially if his services are needed at the point. He shot 36% and 35% from 2 and 3 last year and he is your default back up 2.

      Shump won’t play before Jan 1st with a perfect recovery. The optimistic progression for a guy with an ACL tear is 8 months to be ready to play, 12 months to play well and 18 months to be virtually 100%. Shump is a non finesse guy. His entire game is built around fast twitch explosion. He’s gonna take time to get back where he was this past year.

      Asking him to be near himself til the fall of 2013 is too optimistic. And what happens if JR has a minor injury like a pulled hammy or an ankle sprain that costs a month ?

      Gigantic problems at the 2 and is certainly why Lin must be matched regardless of the financial ramifications.

    39. Frank

      I’m going to try to keep myself off the cliff by writing this:
      Even though Felton is obviously less exciting than Lin, is it possible he’s still not so bad?

      Last season in Portland
      Dec-Feb when he was admittedly out of shape (per 36#s)
      Dec (3 games) 15.1 points, 8 assists, 44.7 TS. 22% 3p%
      Jan (18 games) 10.5 points, 7.2assists, 44 TS, 19% 3p%
      Feb (13 games) 10.5 points, 6.7 assists, 46.9 TS, 32.6% 3p%

      March/April after Nate McMillan left and presumably in better shape
      Mar (16 games) 14.6 points, 7.4 assists, 52.4 TS, 35.4% 3p%
      April (10 games) 15.2 points, 8.2 assists, 54.7 TS, 42.1% 3p%

      And as much as I love Jeremy Lin, I don’t think anyone thinks he will be anything but an average defender. When motivated and in-shape (big if), Felton is just a better defender than Lin is.

      Now Lin certainly has a higher ceiling, and I still want them to re-sign him, but we might look back on this in 2 years and think it wasn’t such a bad thing from a basketball perspective.

    40. Brian Cronin

      He wasn’t the person who broke that story.

      Yeah, he was. He had the story more than a week before everyone else. Since then, he’s basically been CAA’s media spokesperson (but understandably so, as they revitalized his career with that scoop).

    41. Eternal OptiKnist

      In my opinion, there are a few possibilities to whats really going on. I don’t believe its the luxury tax, money, etc. 1) The Knicks are reacting personally to the unethical change in terms by the Houston Rockets and/or Lin’s possible hand in it. Didn’t Dolan jettison Camby and Spreewell on some petty personal thing? 2) Jeremy Lin does not want to be back with the Knicks. The pressure on him to keep Linsanity going in this media market coupled with D’antoni gone and Melo back at the helm is not a situation where he can really be successful. Maybe he said “hey Houston, I really want to play for you, but it looks like the Knicks will match…sad face”. In this situation, Houston was the creative one to do the re-jiggering of the sheet. This scenario has the multiple benefit of getting his money and not having the PR fallout of ‘leaving’ the knicks…”hey, they’re the ones that didn’t match”

    42. Brian Cronin

      Finally got around to reading Stephen A… Assuming Melo is the source, he comes off as even more of an ass than you’d think.

      Remember when Lin hit the game-winning three against Toronto and everyone was running up to him to celebrate and Melo just stood on the sidelines with his arms crossed?

      I was really hoping that that didn’t mean anything.

    43. Brian Cronin

      I’m going to try to keep myself off the cliff by writing this:

      Why even bother?

      It’s not like we’re not going to still root for the Knicks. So I don’t think you need to talk yourself off the cliff. You’ll be fine when the season starts and the Knicks are doing okay. We don’t have to excuse idiotic moves to still be totally into the team when the season starts, ya know? We’ve rooted hard for some shitty ass teams. At least this team won’t be shitty.

    44. Frank

      Brian Cronin: Remember when Lin hit the game-winning three against Toronto and everyone was running up to him to celebrate and Melo just stood on the sidelines with his arms crossed?

      I was really hoping that that didn’t mean anything.

      I don’t think it meant anything.
      I sort of feel for Melo. Just like he said yesterday, he gets blamed for everything. I just don’t get the impression that he’s an evil mastermind — I think he’s bad with the media, says stupid stuff, and gets puppeted around by his handlers, but I just don’t think someone could be so selfish. Guys LIKE to play with him – JR signed with the Knicks, Camby agreed to come back (yes $$ was involved too). He’s best friends with CP3 who everyone seems to love.

      I just don’t see it.

    45. Frank

      No one needs a strong PR firm like Melo does. Now that LBJ has semi-resuscitated his image and A-Rod has stopped his PR freefall, is there another mega-prominent professional athlete that gets sh*t on by the media (and therefore the fans) as much as Melo does?

    46. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think it meant anything.
      I sort of feel for Melo. Just like he said yesterday, he gets blamed for everything. I just don’t get the impression that he’s an evil mastermind — I think he’s bad with the media, says stupid stuff, and gets puppeted around by his handlers, but I just don’t think someone could be so selfish. Guys LIKE to play with him – JR signed with the Knicks, Camby agreed to come back (yes $$ was involved too). He’s best friends with CP3 who everyone seems to love.

      I just don’t see it.

      It is not an evil mastermind thing at all. He is definitely not the reason Lin is not coming back. I don’t think he cares either way. I am just saying I don’t think he likes Lin, that’s all. Just replying to Caleb who was referencing the source in the Smith piece, which likely was Melo.

    47. Eternal OptiKnist

      I think the Knicks should bring him back, but only if he WANTS TO BE BACK. Also, i’m assuming (and you guys can correct me if i’m wrong) that we don’t lose any incremental trade/FA flexibility as we’re already over the cap and apron. Those caveats noted, my rationale is that 1) $5MM for the first two years is perfectly reasonable for what i think he will give us. 2) Its a short 3-year contract and only gets onerous in its final year when its expiring (aren’t expriting contracts still valuable trading assets under the new CBA?) 3) Its an investment in youth so we have something left if/when the Melo/Mare/Tyson experiment fails. 4) My only non-bball rationale. This is a business and he’s a money-maker. And not only that…you have new compeition in town and you need every competitive advantage you can get…and he is a potential huge one. If all it does is cost you money that he alone will help you make up, its a worthwhile gamble.

    48. Spree8nyk8

      Brian Cronin: Why even bother?

      It’s not like we’re not going to still root for the Knicks.

      actually I don’t think I am. In fact I’m pretty close to 100% that I’m not. I kind of want melo to have a season ending injury as soon as possible.

    49. Brian Cronin

      Sorry, in that context, I meant “we” as in “Frank and I.” I know I’m still going to root for the Knicks and I’m sure Frank will, as well. I can’t speak for you guys, although I hope you all still stick around! The Knicks at least won’t stink!

      And yeah, wishing for an injury is a bit much. Melo did not drive Lin away. This is all on Dolan.

    50. KJG

      Didn’t mind the Mcdyess trade too much when it happened… then he got hurt, and I minded it a lot more… then Nene turned out to be formidable… then I cried…

      Forget the money, it’s a non-issue… it all depends how jimmy feels when he wakes up… i.e., one of his buddies cracks a joke about all that tax he’s gonna pay, jimmy’s embarrassed and decides not to match on Lin… or he wakes up and remembers he swims in piles of money a la scrooge mcduck, and he matches…

    51. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      Sorry, in that context, I actually meant “we” as in “Frank and I.” I know I’m still going to root for the Knicks and I’m sure Frank will, as well. I can’t speak for you guys, although I hope you all still stick around! The Knicks at least won’t stink!

      Unfortunately you’re right. I rooted for basically the same team at the end of the year, when Lin and Jeffries were injured, Landry was terrible, and we had a broken-down Baron Davis gimping around at the point.

      It does sort of feel like one of those relationships in which the couple breaks up 30x and keeps getting back together though. Each time a little part of you dies.

    52. jon abbey

      MSG stock price not doing a whole lot this AM, FWIW. down about 1.5 percent, but that could be entirely unrelated.

    53. Spree8nyk8

      Brian Cronin:
      Sorry, in that context, I meant “we” as in “Frank and I.” I know I’m still going to root for the Knicks and I’m sure Frank will, as well. I can’t speak for you guys, although I hope you all still stick around! The Knicks at least won’t stink!

      And yeah, wishing for an injury is a bit much. Melo did not drive Lin away. This is all on Dolan.

      Melo very well could have drove him away. we have no idea what their relationship is like. And even if he didn’t drive him away, he is making it very difficult for the knicks to reverse their mindset on this. And I’m not saying I will never root for them again. I just don’t really want this core to win. I don’t think they deserve it. I think we have horrible human beings playing for us right now. There are like 2 guys on this team that I would classify as good people. Those two I hope get moved to a better franchise. They deserve it. The others i couldn’t care less about.

    54. bobneptune

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      In my opinion, there are a few possibilities to whats really going on.I don’t believe its the luxury tax, money, etc.1) The Knicks are reacting personally to the unethical change in terms by the Houston Rockets and/or Lin’s possible hand in it.

      To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, “I no think you know what the word unethical means!”

      What did Houston do that was unethical? Feign an offer sheet that was ‘rumored’ to have a 9.3M 3rd year and then actually offer Lin one with a 15M 3rd year?

      Was it ‘unethical’ to structure the offer sheet to cause the maximum pain to Dolan? Look at it this way, Houston likes Lin as their starting pg for 8.3M per year for 3 years. If the Knicks decline to match they are happy.

      If the knicks do match, the Rockets participate in the luxury tax from Dolan…. free moniez for them! Win-win!

      As to Lin himself, shouldn’t a guy who was sleeping on his brother’s couch a few months ago be in the business of getting as much guaranteed money as he can. He did EARN the opportunity, you know! It is called capitalism…. you are worth what your free market values says it is.

      And please…. no crocodile tears from Jimmy D. The second he made the melo deal he raised prices 50%. He puts your balls in a vise any time he can with Cablevision pricing. So Lin did the same thing to him.

      Also, did you think Lin was thrilled when Dolan signed Kidd and the first words out of the drunk wife beater’s mouth were, “Lin will make a nice starting guard in the NBA someday, but he has a lot to learn.” Lin won’t have a HOF guard scheming to get more minutes behind his back with the Rockets.

      Turnabout is fair play where I came from!

    55. bobneptune

      Spree8nyk8: actually I don’t think I am.In fact I’m pretty close to 100% that I’m not.I kind of want melo to have a season ending injury as soon as possible.

      Why would you want him to collect 20 million and give you nothing in return?

    56. Frank

      What do you guys think the fan reaction would be if the Knicks ultimately match Lin and then release a statement like this:

      “We are delighted that Jeremy will be a New York Knick. We were surprised by the change in his offer from the Houston Rockets, and decided we wanted to use the full 3 days allotted to us by the CBA to fully research our options and our internal finances, since just the luxury tax payments we may be liable for in 2014-15 are more than the ENTIRE PAYROLLS of most of the other teams in this league. It is a testament to how much we believe in Jeremy Lin and his future that we are going ahead and making this kind of financial commitment to him. We truly believe having him as part of our team will give our franchise the best chance at winning an NBA championship. We have the greatest fans in the world, and they deserve no less than the most careful and reasoned approach to team-building and management”.

      Zero chance of this happening, but it would be a totally reasonable response that no one could be upset about – Lin, Knicks, fans.

    57. Brian Cronin

      “Lin will make a nice starting guard in the NBA someday, but he has a lot to learn.”

      That was a bogus story. Kidd said that last season when Kidd was a Mav.

    58. Spree8nyk8

      bobneptune: Why would you want him to collect 20 million and give you nothing in return?

      Because I stopped giving a shit about this franchise the moment I found out they were going to rip my heart out for the 12 time in 30 years.

    59. Caleb

      Frank:
      No one needs a strong PR firm like Melo does. Now that LBJ has semi-resuscitated his image and A-Rod has stopped his PR freefall, is there another mega-prominent professional athlete that gets sh*t on by the media (and therefore the fans) as much as Melo does?

      He deserves every bit of it… he throws around these subtle disses of Lin, basically saying he hasn’t accomplished anything yet.. as if Melo is some kind of accomplished superstar… instead of a guy who has made the conference finals once, and gotten smoked.

      Beyond that, he’s constantly making gaffes, as Michael Kinsley defined it, “saying what you really mean in public.” I’m sure a lot of other players, high-profile and otherwise, are probably just as stupid and selfish. So in a sense it’s unfair – but hey, no reason to give a pass to a guy for being stupid and selfish.

      @62 I think Lin’s financial impact good or bad is overstated. There was a little burst of irrational exuberance during Linsanity, but in the long run – even over the course of months – the financial health of the team will be based on how much it wins.

    60. johnlocke

      1. Pretty sure Lin wants to be back. The fans loved him, huge Asian population, and his sponsorship/endorsement potential in NY is without peer.

      2. I think this situation has more to do with the way the contract situation unfolded, than the terrible/ridiculous contract itself. Lin got verbal assurances that the Knicks would match. The Knicks felt they were doing him a favor by telling him that, so he would feel secure and not antsy. He then turns around and uses this information as negotiating leverage to get even more money from the Rockets…and I would bet he was probably unaware of the luxury tax implications for the Knicks in doing so, but was simply going after the $$. I mean, I know we say athletes should go after all they can get, but I’m sure it struck the Knicks as underhanded and disloyal.

      3. Dolan, despite all his faults, really values loyalty. Think Allan Houston, Isaiah Thomas, John Starks, Larry Johnson, Walt Clyde and all the ex-Knicks that were viewed as ‘loyal’ that he takes care of/hires. Pat Ewing is an outlier, although I can’t claim to know everything about their relationship…sure that Gold Club incident probably didn’t help.

      4. Dolan and only Dolan will determine if he comes back. The right basketball move is to get him back, but even high-performers can get ‘fired’ if they piss of their boss/CEO…so we’ll find out on Tuesday how pissed Dolan really is….I’d say it’s 90/10 that Lin does not come back.

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      In my opinion, there are a few possibilities to whats really going on.I don’t believe its the luxury tax, money, etc.1) The Knicks are reacting personally to the unethical change in terms by the Houston Rockets and/or Lin’s possible hand in it.Didn’t Dolan jettison Camby and Spreewell on some petty personal thing? 2) Jeremy Lin does not want to be back with the Knicks.

    61. jon abbey

      Spree8nyk8: Because I stopped giving a shit about this franchise the moment I found out they were going to rip my heart out for the 12 time in 30 years.

      where were you the other 18 times, out of the country?

    62. exel

      If this was only a basketball decision, without a doubt in mind the Knicks would match. Given the salary cap situation and the fact that there hardly is any more assets left for sign and trades, the Knicks would have to fill Lin’s roster position with a vet min or d-league player. Would you want another James White/Pablo Prigioni type player on the roster instead of Lin?

      I think the realy issue is if MSG can get the return on investment (ROI) on Lin’s new contract that they want. It wouldn’t surprise me if MSG have their analysts working overtime creating revenue models to see if Lin’s contract will create a positive return. In order to properly due that, they’ll need to contact the Chinese companies, who have signed marketing contracts with MSG because of Lin, to see what they’ll do if Lin is no longer with the Knicks. I’m sure they have contingencies built in around Lin being a Knicks player.

    63. bobneptune

      Brian Cronin: That was a bogus story. Kidd said that last season when Kidd was a Mav.

      So if he said it a couple of months ago, that doesn’t make it his actual attitude and portend what his actions will be here?

      What am I missing. He actually said it, right?

    64. johnlocke

      I don’t think any fans will be upset if we match Lin, it’s just money out of Dolan’s wallet and it makes us a better team. The real question is what will the other players on the team think, per JR’s comments. Could definitely cause jealousy and tension in the locker room that a 23 yr old kid that was in the D League, got waived by multiple teams and played 30 games, and 0 playoff games got a $15M a year contract in one year…or $8M average, when guys like JR are making $3M.

      Frank:
      What do you guys think the fan reaction would be if the Knicks ultimately match Lin and then release a statement like this:

    65. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      RicanKnick:
      Two of them are on the Dream Team. One of them was DPOY…. compare that to 25 starts, no playoffs exp. Then laugh all you want!

      Sarah Palin was the candidate for Vice President of the United States of America. Do you think she was qualified for that position?

    66. PrecociousNeophyte

      The Knicks didn’t just give Lin verbal assurances. They told anyone that would listen that they would match any offer and basically had their cronies in the media mock the initial reported offer sheet.

      You can’t claim confidentiality or breach of confidence or however else you want to frame it when you are screaming that information to the world.

    67. Caleb

      bobneptune: To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, “I no think you know what the word unethical means!”

      What did Houston do that was unethical? Feign an offer sheet that was ‘rumored’ to have a 9.3M 3rd year and then actually offer Lin one with a 15M 3rd year?

      Was it ‘unethical’ to structure the offer sheet to cause the maximum pain to Dolan? Look at it this way, Houston likes Lin as their starting pg for 8.3M per year for 3 years. If the Knicks decline to match they are happy.

      I don’t think there’s a bright line, but at least based on how it’s been reported, I would say the Rockets and Lin were unethical. It’s pretty much standard practice that verbal deals struck during the waiting period, are pretty solid. Teams and agents maintain this mutual understanding because over the long run, it makes it easier for both sides to do business.

      The Rockets and Lin struck a deal. Then, when they saw a way to screw New York for extra players and picks (the Camby deal) and up their odds of keeping Lin, they changed the terms.

      Look at this scenario: on July 1, Player A agrees to a 5-year, $60 million contract, to be signed when the waiting period ends July 11. On July 10, Player A says, “I’m taking my talents to Philadelphia unless you pay me $70 million.” This is ok by NBA rules – the contract wasn’t actually allowed to be signed on July 1 – but is it ethical? I would say not, in that it violates the norms by which teams and agents/players do business all the time.

      I don’t see the situation of the Rockets & Lin as any different.

      Of course that doesn’t mean the Knicks handled it well*, or that they shouldn’t match.

      *although really – I don’t think they Knicks made any strategic errors. Lin wouldn’t have signed a 4-year, $24m deal on July 1. He would have taken bidders and gotten a higher offer anyway. And at that point, what are the what are the Knicks supposed to do? I guess they could publically waffle, but forget public statements.. what matters is what they said to Lin’s agent. And it seems they told him they would match, at which point he and Morey pulled their unethical stunt.

      You have to wonder, long-term, how that will be for business. It’s not like the other 28 teams didn’t notice what they did.

    68. Spree8nyk8

      jon abbey: where were you the other 18 times, out of the country?

      Yeah you’re right, I was just trying to be nice. I just feel like I’ve lost the will to keep my chin up with this team and I hate them for it. And I’m honestly semi ashamed of the way this is affecting me personally, because I hate this fucking team so bad right now. But I don’t know who I am without being a fan of them. It’s a gigantic portion of my life that even though it’s been rough has always meant a tremendous amount to me and I feel like it’s been stolen from me. I don’t know how to not care, but I feel stupid for continuing to do so. I don’t know I might need therapy or something now.

    69. bobneptune

      johnlocke:
      1. Pretty sure Lin wants to be back. The fans loved him, huge Asian population, and his sponsorship/endorsement potential in NY is without peer.

      2. I think this situation has more to do with the way the contract situation unfolded, than the terrible/ridiculous contract itself. Lin got verbal assurances that the Knicks would match. The Knicks felt they were doing him a favor by telling him that, so he would feel secure and not antsy. He then turns around and uses this information as negotiating leverage to get even more money from the Rockets…and I would bet he was probably unaware of the luxury tax implications for the Knicks in doing so, but was simply going after the $$. I mean, I know we say athletes should go after all they can get, but I’m sure it struck the Knicks as underhanded and disloyal.

      Pretty loltastic that the president of a communication conglomerate would be in a state of high dudgeon over someone with a Harvard finance background using the concept of leverage in a business negotiation! Stunning stuff.

      Is it disloyal when Dolan raises his ticket prices after his loyal fans have endured 10 years of losing basketball 10 seconds after he signs a faux star in Carmelo?

      I guess “loyalty” only works in the rich guy’s favor.

    70. Spree8nyk8

      PrecociousNeophyte:
      The Knicks didn’t just give Lin verbal assurances. They told anyone that would listen that they would match any offer and basically had their cronies in the media mock the initial reported offer sheet.

      You can’t claim confidentiality or breach of confidence or however else you want to frame it when you are screaming that information to the world.

      Knicks: How could you tell them we were going to match??
      Lin: They have twitter bro!

    71. thenamestsam

      Caleb:

      I don’t see the situation of the Rockets & Lin as any different.

      If you don’t see the difference between the two scenarios you don’t have a very good understanding of how contracts work. A contract is an agreement between two parties. Those two parties have an ethical responsibility to each other to honor the terms of their agreement unless they mutually agree to dissolve that contract. In the situation you described Player A has an ethical obligation to the team he signed a verbal contract with. When he dissolves that arrangement without their agreement, he is acting unethically.

      Now to Lin. He and the Rockets have an arrangement. They are the only two parties involved. They mutually agreed to dissolve a prior arrangement and work out a new one. This is completely standard in the world of contracts. Every time my boss gives me a raise, we are mutually agreeing to dissolve my previous contract and replace it with a new one specifying new terms which are agreeable to both parties. The reason this is not unethical is because noone (involved in the contract) is harmed. The fact that both parties are willing to dissolve the old contract shows that they are both at least as well off under the new contract. That is not the case in the blackmail scenario you described.

      How the Knicks feel about all this is completely and totally irrelevant to the ethics of the situation because they are not a party to the agreement. They had no arrangement with either Lin or the Rockets which either of those parties would be ethically obligated to honor.

    72. Count de Pennies

      Last night my wife and I watched “The Thief of Baghdad” on TCM (the 1940 version, not the Douglas Fairbanks original)

      In the film, the character of the Sultan of Basra is a senile old man who collects elaborate mechanical toys. The old Sultan loves his toys, as he put it, “more than my own subjects.” The movie’s villain, Jaffar, is able to manipulate the Sultan by giving him two toys as gifts, one of which winds up killing the old man.

      Watching those scenes, it was hard for me not to think of the Knicks – with Dolan playing the role of the silly old Sultan who loves his toys “more than his own subjects” and either does not know – or does not care – about the possible dangers posed by his prized possessions.

      OK; it’s not the greatest analogy. It’s really just another way of reminding folks that the outsized anger that’s now being directed toward Melo, Amar’e – or any of Dolan’s other expensive “toys” – is misplaced. As long as we remain subjects in a Sultanate whose ruler cares more for his toys than for us, our oppression at his hands will continue. It shall someday come to pass that Melo and Amar’e are replaced by other equally shiny, equally ill-fitting toys. And so it will go until Dolan is gone – or until (like the Thief of Baghdad) one of us is lucky enough to stumble upon a genii in a bottle who can help rid us of this scourge.

    73. iserp

      My 2 cents on Lin:

      Most of you are blaming Dolan on the decision of not matching Lin (let’s see). But i believe it is Grunwald and Woodson’s, that they think Lin is not a good player. They weren’t going to offer $24 million / 4 years, and they couldn’t work a S&T because Lin could always get a bigger offer on FA. I guess they hoped nobody would tie their cap space with a big offer if they announced the world they would match anything; and then they would lowball Lin. If they really thought Lin is a good player, they wouldn’t have given such big contracts (4 million Novak, 3 Kidd, 3 Camby) to compensate the tax hit. But our FO has considered those 3 individually more important than Jeremy.

      IMHO, Linsanity was a good fluke (wild shots going in / driving into a well defended lane and then lucking out an assist / …) combined with the best possible conditions (No other scorer on the team, a long list of bad teams with PGs that are not great defenders, …). And in that sense, i understand that a contract like Lin is not worth $60 million (or whatever figure). However, i don’t think that Felton or Kidd are better, :S. I am putting my hopes that Prigioni can still play at high level.

    74. thenamestsam

      Frank:
      What do you guys think the fan reaction would be if the Knicks ultimately match Lin and then release a statement like this:

      “We are delighted that Jeremy will be a New York Knick. We were surprised by the change in his offer from the Houston Rockets, and decided we wanted to use the full 3 days allotted to us by the CBA to fully research our options and our internal finances, since just the luxury tax payments we may be liable for in 2014-15 are more than the ENTIRE PAYROLLS of most of the other teams in this league.It is a testament to how much we believe in Jeremy Lin and his future that we are going ahead and making this kind of financial commitment to him. We truly believe having him as part of our team will give our franchise the best chance at winning an NBA championship. We have the greatest fans in the world, and they deserve no less than the most careful and reasoned approach to team-building and management”.

      I know my reaction would be a huge WTF. Honestly, when this news first leaked that they wouldn’t match, I expected that it was all a load of crap, that the Knicks were pissed at the Rockets and were basically just playing games to get back at them. And I expected that right before the deadline we would see a release along the lines of what you’re describing.

      But seeing the amount of outrage and the quotes from the Knicks players in the last 36 hours I’ve become more and more convinced that if that had been the original plan, the Knicks would have seen that it’s backfiring and they’re creating more strife internally than they could possibly be causing the Rockets. They would have leaked something about how it wasn’t decided yet just to keep the fans from going over the ledge and stop the tide of bad press. The fact that we haven’t heard anything like that seems definitive to me.

    75. tastycakes

      An under-reported aspect of this whole horrible ordeal is how fucked up and counter-productive restricted free agency is.

      As far as I understand, RFA exists to help clubs keep their talent. In this situation, it clearly overinflated the contract that Lin received (and several other contracts in this off-season), resulting in mediocre players (like Landry Fields) getting overpaid AND leaving.

      Lose-lose: promising young players move on to new teams while potentially harming their cap situations.

      Why the Knicks can’t offer a more sane contract alternative in this situation is beyond me. Shouldn’t they have the right to say, “Hey Jeremy, how about we give you a 4 year deal worth the same money without this poison pill bullshit and if you’re really great, we’re gonna be able to pay you more than anybody else at the end?”

      I’m so gutted about this whole thing.

    76. bobneptune

      Caleb: I don’t think there’s a bright line, but at least based on how it’s been reported, I would say the Rockets and Lin were unethical.

      The lols just keep on coming. Isn’t Dolan the guy who told Woodson he wouldn’t negotiate with Woodson’s agent and if he wanted to get the Knick job to find another agent (and melo’s agent would be a good choice)?

      Same guy who is crying crocodile tears about “ethics” now? Please!

      This is big boy business. It is all ‘elbows and assholes’.

      It is Lin’s right to get every penny he can and if he and Houston used an elaborate ruse and subterfuge to back poor old Jimmy D into a corner, God bless them.

      If Dolan still has butthurt after this he can sign Lin and trade him to Minnesota or Sacratomato for a bag of used jock straps if he pleases just to spite him in December.

    77. johnlocke

      I don’t think what Lin did is unethical, but I can see how the Knicks mgmt and owner could be pissed off. The implicit assumption here is that the Knicks wanted Lin and Lin wanted the Knicks. Lin used knowledge/assurances that were given to him for his own well-being and psychological security and then used those assurances to work with Houston to sign himself to a deal that would severely impair the Knicks if they matched it. This is within the context that the organization gave him a spotlight and opportunity no team had been willing to give him, that allowed him to get this contract in the first place. I think unethical is too strong a word, but it was definitely a bit underhanded and disloyal I think.

      thenamestsam:

      Now to Lin. He and the Rockets have an arrangement. They are the only two parties involved. They mutually agreed to dissolve a prior arrangement and work out a new one. This is completely standard in the world of contracts. Every time my boss gives me a raise, we are mutually agreeing to dissolve my previous contract and replace it with a new one specifying new terms which are agreeable to both parties.

    78. Brian Cronin

      An under-reported aspect of this whole horrible ordeal is how fucked up and counter-productive restricted free agency is.

      As far as I understand, RFA exists to help clubs keep their talent. In this situation, it clearly overinflated the contract that Lin received (and several other contracts in this off-season), resulting in mediocre players (like Landry Fields) getting overpaid AND leaving.

      Lose-lose: promising young players move on to new teams while potentially harming their cap situations.

      Why the Knicks can’t offer a more sane contract alternative in this situation is beyond me. Shouldn’t they have the right to say, “Hey Jeremy, how about we give you a 4 year deal worth the same money without this poison pill bullshit and if you’re really great, we’re gonna be able to pay you more than anybody else at the end?”

      I’m so gutted about this whole thing.

      The thing is that if it were not for this backloaded contract rule, Lin would be gone and the Knicks would not have a chance to keep him. They are restricted to offering him $5 million a year. If other teams could just sign him outright, they would and Houston would give him three-years/$25 million and Lin would be gone. This way, the Knicks can match, they just have to pay the balloon payment.

      The area they should have adjusted is not have the luxury tax apply the same way. The new CBA makes luxury taxes so onerous that it makes it very difficult to match while it was not as difficult in the past. Now if they had to pay luxury taxes only on the average salary, that would be a fair compromise.

    79. Eternal OptiKnist

      @64

      Rockets made a verbal offer before the 11th, just like ALL the other verbal agreements made before the moratorium ended. Now…technically these agreements are not legit until after the 11th and paper is signed BUT it would be the same thing if Deron Williams said he was returning and then decided he didnt want to sign the contract on the 11th. He’d be well within his right but in my opinion that would be unethical. Ready my post thoroughly..I don’t care about Dolan’s money…and i dont think its about money for him either. Either Dolan is taking this personally or Lin doesn’t want to play in NY anymore. My only concern was do we lose any flexibility by adding this money in…which i dont think we do…we’re already above the cap and the apron (no one has corrected me on that yet).

    80. Brian Cronin

      It would be unethical if Deron decided he didn’t want to sign and Brooklyn wanted him to sign, true. But if Brooklyn wanted to give him more money and he wanted to take more money, they could add on salary before the deal was signed. Hell, Brooklyn did that this year with Teletovic. No one accused them of being unethical to Teletovic (some accursed them of lying about where the money went, but not unethical with Teletovic).

    81. Eternal OptiKnist

      What the rockets did is unethical…not Lin. I dont begrudge him at all for trying to get as much money as he could. The rockets changing the terms of a verbal agreement was not wrong under the rules, but not ethical as to the convention of how these things work.

    82. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin: The thing is that if it were not for this backloaded contract rule, Lin would be gone and the Knicks would not have a chance to keep him. They are restricted to offering him $5 million a year. If other teams could just sign him outright, they would and Houston would give him three-years/$25 million and Lin would be gone. This way, the Knicks can match, they just have to pay the balloon payment.

      Right, as with all things you have to keep in mind that RFA is a creation of CBA negotiations. So when tastycakes says that it’s purpose is to “help teams keep their talent”, that’s a simplistic way of looking at things. The best way to help teams keep their talent is to have no free agency. The other end of the spectrum is entirely unrestricted free agency. RFA is a negotiated mid-point which is supposed to allow players the opportunity to earn their market value while also giving their own teams the opportunity to hang on to them. The Knicks, despite being way over the cap, have a chance to keep a guy like Lin who burst into stardom with them. But at the same time he has a chance to earn what the market deems fair. That’s effectively how the system as negotiated is supposed to work.

    83. Brian Cronin

      What the rockets did is unethical…not Lin. I dont begrudge him at all for trying to get as much money as he could. The rockets changing the terms of a verbal agreement was not wrong under the rules, but not ethical as to the convention of how these things work.

      If Lin didn’t want to change the terms, they would have signed him to the original term. They only owe an ethical duty to Lin. And if he’s okay with them changing the contract, they’re okay ethically.

    84. Caleb

      thenamestsam: If you don’t see the difference between the two scenarios you don’t have a very good understanding of how contracts work. A contract is an agreement between two parties. Those two parties have an ethical responsibility to each other to honor the terms of their agreement unless they mutually agree to dissolve that contract. In the situation you described Player A has an ethical obligation to the team he signed a verbal contract with. When he dissolves that arrangement without their agreement, he is acting unethically.

      Now to Lin. He and the Rockets have an arrangement. They are the only two parties involved. They mutually agreed to dissolve a prior arrangement and work out a new one. This is completely standard in the world of contracts… The reason this is not unethical is because noone (involved in the contract) is harmed. The fact that both parties are willing to dissolve the old contract shows that they are both at least as well off under the new contract. That is not the case in the blackmail scenario you described.

      How the Knicks feel about all this is completely and totally irrelevant to the ethics of the situation because they are not a party to the agreement. They had no arrangement with either Lin or the Rockets which either of those parties would be ethically obligated to honor.

      This is not a completely unfair point, but it misses an important aspect. The Rockets and Knicks are not completely separate entities. They’re part of the NBA, which – along with Lin – are parties to a larger operating agreement. Part of the CBA is that teams can match offers on restricted FAs. So it’s not completely accurate to say the contract is only between Lin and the Rockets.

      It’s not completely black and white, but this is how teams traditionally do business. You can bet the other 28 teams would also feel screwed over in this situation.

    85. Brian Cronin

      I think it is just a rhetorical point, Caleb. Your point is fair that what the Rockets did reasonably irked the Knicks. It just wasn’t “unethical,” that’s all.

    86. Caleb

      Eternal OptiKnist:
      What the rockets did is unethical…not Lin.I dont begrudge him at all for trying to get as much money as he could.The rockets changing the terms of a verbal agreement was not wrong under the rules, but not ethical as to the convention of how these things work.

      They’re both parties to the original agreement, and the new one. So they are equally ethical, or unethical.

    87. Brian Cronin

      Right, as with all things you have to keep in mind that RFA is a creation of CBA negotiations. So when tastycakes says that it’s purpose is to “help teams keep their talent”, that’s a simplistic way of looking at things. The best way to help teams keep their talent is to have no free agency. The other end of the spectrum is entirely unrestricted free agency. RFA is a negotiated mid-point which is supposed to allow players the opportunity to earn their market value while also giving their own teams the opportunity to hang on to them. The Knicks, despite being way over the cap, have a chance to keep a guy like Lin who burst into stardom with them. But at the same time he has a chance to earn what the market deems fair. That’s effectively how the system as negotiated is supposed to work.

      Yes, but I would allow that the severe luxury tax charges combined with balloon payments make it more difficult to keep restricted free agents nowadays. I think they should adopt a new approach where the luxury tax hit will be based on the average salary (so $8.3 million every year) while the actual salary remains the same ($5/5/15).

    88. Count de Pennies

      Caleb: The Rockets and Knicks are not completely separate entities. They’re part of the NBA, which – along with Lin – are parties to a larger operating agreement. Part of the CBA is that teams can match offers on restricted FAs. So it’s not completely accurate to say the contract is only between Lin and the Rockets.

      It’s not completely black and white, but this is how teams traditionally do business. You can bet the other 28 teams would also feel screwed over in this situation.

      It will be interesting to see what repercussions – if any – are felt by Morey and the Rockets as a result of this move.

      If the league’s other GMs feel that Houston acted in bad faith, then it may hamper Morey’s ability to make deals in the future.

      My sense, however, is that he sees no negative fallout. If it were, say, Sacramento or Toronto as the injured party, it might be different. But I don’t think there’s much downside to screwing over Dolan and the Knicks. Heck, for all we know, the other GMs may decided to nominate Morey for “Executive of the Year” on account of this.

    89. Eternal OptiKnist

      Brian Cronin: If Lin didn’t want to change the terms, they would have signed him to the original term. They only owe an ethical duty to Lin. And if he’s okay with them changing the contract, they’re okay ethically.

      I disagree….as an employee, you’re supposed to find work and get paid as much as you can. Employers decide what they want to pay you…that isnt his concern. The employers are supposed to follow the rules as they relate to arranging these deals. I think its the rockets that acted unethically. Lin is caught in the middle.

    90. Frank O.

      I think this is genius.
      If it goes a certain way.
      See, NY fans are so wound up, so ready to be screwed, that when the Knicks match Lin, there is going to be an outpouring of good will from which the Knicks will instantly profit.
      Guarantee boxes will sell out, season ticket holders will sell out, merchandise will go through the roof.
      The Knicks will hold the back pages for several days in July and early August. And not a game will have been played.
      The anticipation leading to preseason and the start will be huge.

      Plus, the Knicks need a monster splash to offset the effects of the Brooklyn Nets. They cannot underestimate the impact of a place like Brooklyn, which if it stood alone would be one of the biggest cities in the country, and with sports-starved fans.
      The Nets are going to be very good with Williams and Johnson.

      In my humble opinion, it is in the Knicks’ interests to allow this story to build because the drama will only open people’s wallets.
      If they sign him, this all will be genius.

    91. Thomas B.

      I really just don’t know what the big deal is about letting him go. We had only 35 games to determine whether this guy is a budding All-Star, or just coming off his Ramon Sessions year.

      I just don’t think Lin is a budding star. I think he got hot for a short amount of time and that has most fans all worked up over what we might lose. I honestly don’t think we are losing that much. I think at best over a full season he will perform as an average NBA point. I think his value comes as a scorer, which is marginalized when playing with Melo, Stat, and Smith all of whom who are high usage players.

      I liked Lin a lot at 750k. For that price I could overlook the way Deron Williams ate him alive or how the Miami pressure made him look like an undrafted player. 3 years/15million you can do. I am not willing to deal has in on the books for 14.8 million two years from now. If it turns out that this is his Ramon Sessions year, and he struggles to be even average after this, what option do you have to make changes or move that contract? If he gets hurt or he is just average, you ae stuck with that contract. You can not make that sort of financial investment with nothing more than 35 games.

      Let him go.

    92. ABG

      Honestly, I think people on this board are overreacting. Consider the facts:

      -Jim Dolan is 56 years old.

      -The average lifespan for an American male is 75.6 years old.

      -Assuming that Dolan can afford the best possible medical care, and factoring in that his prior issues with drugs and his lifestyle of partying and generally having no stress or responsibility other than to play in his band and collect money is probably a net neutral, we can reasonably tack on only about 7 years to his life.

      -That means that we have merely to wait approximately 26 years for Jim Dolan to die for our team to have a chance at being respectably run by one of his six children, or by someone buying the franchise.

      -Considering this is an internet message board, i suspect many of us are under 50, and therefore should average at least another 26 years of life expectancy.

      So, as you can see, there’s little to worry about when you consider the Knicks in the context of human mortality.

    93. Brian Cronin

      Honestly, I think people on this board are overreacting. Consider the facts:

      -Jim Dolan is 56 years old.

      -The average lifespan for an American male is 75.6 years old.

      -Assuming that Dolan can afford the best possible medical care, and factoring in that his prior issues with drugs and his lifestyle of partying and generally having no stress or responsibility other than to play in his band and collect money is probably a net neutral, we can reasonably tack on only about 7 years to his life.

      -That means that we have merely to wait approximately 26 years for Jim Dolan to die for our team to have a chance at being respectably run by one of his six children, or by someone buying the franchise.

      -Considering this is an internet message board, i suspect many of us are under 50, and therefore should average at least another 26 years of life expectancy.

      So, as you can see, there’s little to worry about when you consider the Knicks in the context of human mortality.

      Excellent point.

    94. Count de Pennies

      @105

      I’d nominate this as KB’s Best.Post.Ever were it not for the fact that I, too, am 56 years old and am no lock to outlive Dolan.

      It’s quite possible that I go to my grave rooting for a team owned by this scumbag.

    95. johnlocke

      Really? That has to be on the crudest, coldest comments I’ve ever read on here.

      ABG:
      Honestly, I think people on this board are overreacting.Consider the facts:

      -Jim Dolan is 56 years old.

      -The average lifespan for an American male is 75.6 years old.

      -Assuming that Dolan can afford the best possible medical care, and factoring in that his prior issues with drugs and his lifestyle of partying and generally having no stress or responsibility other than to play in his band and collect money is probably a net neutral, we can reasonably tack on only about 7 years to his life.

      -That means that we have merely to wait approximately 26 years for Jim Dolan to die for our team to have a chance at being respectably run by one of his six children, or by someone buying the franchise.

      -Considering this is an internet message board, i suspect many of us are under 50, and therefore should average at least another 26 years of life expectancy.

      So, as you can see, there’s little to worry about when you consider the Knicks in the context of human mortality.

      ABG:
      Honestly, I think people on this board are overreacting.Consider the facts:

      -Jim Dolan is 56 years old.

      -The average lifespan for an American male is 75.6 years old.

      -Assuming that Dolan can afford the best possible medical care, and factoring in that his prior issues with drugs and his lifestyle of partying and generally having no stress or responsibility other than to play in his band and collect money is probably a net neutral, we can reasonably tack on only about 7 years to his life.

      -That means that we have merely to wait approximately 26 years for Jim Dolan to die for our team to have a chance at being respectably run by one of his six children, or by someone buying…

    96. tastycakes

      thenamestsam: Right, as with all things you have to keep in mind that RFA is a creation of CBA negotiations. So when tastycakes says that it’s purpose is to “help teams keep their talent”, that’s a simplistic way of looking at things. The best way to help teams keep their talent is to have no free agency. The other end of the spectrum is entirely unrestricted free agency. RFA is a negotiated mid-point which is supposed to allow players the opportunity to earn their market value while also giving their own teams the opportunity to hang on to them. The Knicks, despite being way over the cap, have a chance to keep a guy like Lin who burst into stardom with them. But at the same time he has a chance to earn what the market deems fair. That’s effectively how the system as negotiated is supposed to work.

      Yes, I understand that RFA is a compromise solution intended to resolve a certain particular set of problems. My point is that, as currently constituted, with the luxury tax being what it is, “market value” is being inflated by teams that draft initial offer sheets in an attempt to make the player’s current team incapable of matching. Lin is being OVERPAID relative to his perceived value ONLY because the new team is trying to stop the old team from matching.

      Brian’s solution (re-signed RFA contracts don’t count towards tax) is one possibility.

      What I’m advocating is that the player’s current team should still be able to offer a competitive contract EVEN IF it does not EXACTLY MATCH the new offer. e.g. Let Jeremy Lin decide if he’d rather stay in NYC for $20M over 4 or go to HOU for $25M over 3. Currently, the Knicks have NO ALTERNATIVE but to sign the player they “discovered” for a fucked up contract (5/5/15???) and a huge tax hit.

    97. bobneptune

      johnlocke:
      I don’t think what Lin did is unethical, but I can see how the Knicks mgmt and owner could be pissed off.The implicit assumption here is that the Knicks wanted Lin and Lin wanted the Knicks. Lin used knowledge/assurances that were given to him for his own well-being and psychological security and then used those assurances to work with Houston to sign himself to a deal that would severely impair the Knicks if they matched it. This is within the context that the organization gave him a spotlight and opportunity no team had been willing to give him, that allowed him to get this contract in the first place. I think unethical is too strong a word, but it was definitely a bit underhanded and disloyal I think.

      Nonsense. The Knick management made a tactical error in tipping their hand to Lin. What purpose would it have served? To make m ‘feel better’ for 3 days?. Come on!

      The Knicks told him to search out an offer. They should have stuck to that and told Lin we’ll decide when we see it. Period.

      What is the upside of saying we’ll match 9.3 million in the 3rd year but acted queasy to go higher?

      They made the cardinal sin in any negotiation of dropping their pants in the middle of it. Now they have to deal with the consequences.

      No one should be surprised at this level of incompetence coming from Dolan after watching his adroit handling of the Melo “negotiation” when he actually did have all the leverage and still ended up surrendering the kitchen sink.

    98. Brian Cronin

      I could overlook the way Deron Williams ate him alive

      I love the idea of citing the time Deron Williams did well against Lin as thought it means something but also omitting the time Lin did well against Deron Williams as thought it means nothing.

    99. Count de Pennies

      johnlocke: Really? That has to be on the crudest, coldest comments I’ve ever read on here.

      Cruder and colder than wishing a season-ending injury on one of the team’s players?

    100. bobneptune

      Caleb: This is not a completely unfair point, but it misses an important aspect. The Rockets and Knicks are not completely separate entities. They’re part of the NBA, which – along with Lin – are parties to a larger operating agreement. Part of the CBA is that teams can match offers on restricted FAs. So it’s not completely accurate to say the contract is only between Lin and the Rockets.

      OK, To play along…. how did the Rockets or Lin violate any part of the CBA between the teams, league and players?

      Pro tip: they didn’t!

    101. Thomas B.

      Brian Cronin: I love the idea of citing the time Deron Williams did well against Lin as thought it means something but also omitting the time Lin did well against Deron Williams as thought it means nothing.

      Lin did not do well enough against Williams to make up for what Williams did to him. It wasn’t a “I got you, you got me back.” It was I got you, you beat me like a rented mule.” And there is still the 35 games thing..and the Miami thing…and the fit with the rest of team thing…and the history of undrafted players not coming out of nowhere to be borderline all-stars. Yeah, I’m just looking at one little old game.

      It is unlikely that Lin is Manu. Accept that.

    102. Jafa

      Are we doomed to continue to suffer as Knicks fans? Are we ever going to have “glory days” again? Why does loving this team have to involve so much pain?

    103. Jafa

      So to recap the off-season,

      We let go/traded/shipped out Toney Douglas, Josh Harrelson, Jerome Jordan, Laundry Fields, Jeremy Lin, Jared Jefferies and the draft rights to Kostas Papinikolaou and Giorgos Printezis.

      We acquired/re-signed, Jason Kidd, Steve Novak, JR Smith, James White, Marcus Camby, Raymon Felton and Kurt Thomas.

      So that’s 1 young potential star, 6 young potential rotation players and 1 veteran role player for 4 role players and 3 old players. Further, our 3 core players (Melo, STAT and Chandler) who are all in their prime are now surrounded by either old guys who probably will only give you flashes of what they used to do in the prime or role players with no potential to give you more than what they currently offer.

    104. Thomas B.

      bobneptune: How much do you subtract for being a drunk and drug addict?

      Depends on what kind of abuse and how long you used. Alcoholics lose about 11 years. Heroin addicts lose about 25 years. Knick fan on average lose about 8 years.

    105. Brian Cronin

      Lin did not do well enough against Williams to make up for what Williams did to him. It wasn’t a “I got you, you got me back.” It was I got you, you beat me like a rented mule.” And there is still the 35 games thing..and the Miami thing…and the fit with the rest of team thing…and the history of undrafted players not coming out of nowhere to be borderline all-stars. Yeah, I’m just looking at one little old game.

      It is unlikely that Lin is Manu. Accept that.

      Lin outplayed D-Will in their first game and then D-Will put on a show in the rematch. However, in the rematch, Lin put up a 21 point, 7 rebounds, 9 assist game. Williams had an amazing game, but to act like Lin was outclassed is unfair.

      And yes, Lin is not as good as one of the greatest guards of the past decade. Duly noted.

      He is, though, at least as good as Rodney Stuckey, Aaron Afflalo, Mike Conley, all guys making the same amount of money as Lin is scheduled to make.

      Plus Lin is clearly the best guy that they can add to this capped out team and signing him to $8.3 million does not negatively affect their roster flexibility at all. It can only help.

    106. Spree8nyk8

      Brian Cronin: I love the idea of citing the time Deron Williams did well against Lin as thought it means something but also omitting the time Lin did well against Deron Williams as thought it means nothing.

      Even in the game where he was “eaten alive” he had 21pts 9ast 7reb 4 stls and 3 to’s. Dwill hit 8 3’s for 24 of his 38. I’m not sure how Lin is supposed to stop someone like Dwill from hitting 8 3’s but idk I guess if you really wanna blame him.

    107. SSS

      Thomas B.: Lin did not do well enough against Williams to make up for what Williams did to him.

      Wait, you mean the game where Deron couldn’t miss on a series of step-back 3-pointers? You replay that game 100 times, with Deron taking the same shots each time, and I think a majority of the time Lin ends up with the better game. And you could put almost any PG in the game on Deron and he’d still end up with the same numbers – if you’re going to knock down shots like that, you’re unstoppable. Not sure how we blame that on Lin.

    108. Frank

      Thomas B.: Lin did not do well enough against Williams to make up for what Williams did to him.It wasn’t a “I got you, you got me back.” It was I got you, you beat me like a rented mule.”And there is still the 35 games thing..and the Miami thing…and the fit with the rest of team thing…and the history of undrafted players not coming out of nowhere to be borderline all-stars.Yeah, I’m just looking at one little old game.

      It is unlikely that Lin is Manu. Accept that.

      I’m actually ok with this line of thinking, except for one thing – if you have any inkling of letting him go, then you have to engage in S&T conversations. Even if you just get a 1st round pick, that’s something. Now we are losing arguably our best asset (maybe Shump is more valuable) for zippo. Not cap space, not players, not picks, nothing. zip.

    109. SSS

      Brian Cronin: Extremely morbid. But what do we have left but gallows humor?

      Note to the rest of the blog: Please don’t answer the question above. It was rhetorical, and I’m deathly afraid (pun intended) of what y’all may come up with.

    110. formido

      Sorry, cherry picking is always stupid. Lin was top 30 in adjusted +/- and top 30 in PER, second in 4th quarter PER, and did extremely well in a host of other individual aggregate stats according to espn stats. This was across a broad range of competition, not just Linsanity.. And this was a player making his first 25 starts in the league. As someone else pointed out, nba evidence is way better than college evidence and if Lin were in this last draft he’d have been a lottery pick.

      Also, the first Williams/Lin matchup is much more representative of Williams normal energy level and motivation in a game.

      Thomas B.: Lin did not do well enough against Williams to make up for what Williams did to him.It wasn’t a “I got you, you got me back.” It was I got you, you beat me like a rented mule.”And there is still the 35 games thing..and the Miami thing…and the fit with the rest of team thing…and the history of undrafted players not coming out of nowhere to be borderline all-stars.Yeah, I’m just looking at one little old game.

      It is unlikely that Lin is Manu. Accept that.

    111. Frank

      Why is no one in the media discussing Brian’s idea of using the stretch provision in 14-15 if Lin plays like the backup PG they are trying to make him out to be?

      It should be noted, though, that Alan Hahn just wrote a piece on MSG.com saying the Knicks should bring him back, if even as a trade piece. Given that Hahn is now an MSG employee, that would, in my mind, be considered a positive sign that that was allowed to get through his editor.

    112. formido

      Let’s be clear why people are so upset. People want to hope for a championship. Just a hope. Maybe Lin turns out average. But his upside seems to be significantly more than that. The best argument against Lin is only that his awesome aggregate stats are based on a small sample. That’s a weak argument against hope. Hope is still there. Right now, people hope that 7-1 means something. People hope that 15 ppg margin of victory and three wins over playoff teams during that stretch means something. That’s hope.

      Trade Lin and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope that Knicks are contenders next year. Hope is dashed. Hope is gone.

    113. Caleb

      bobneptune: Nonsense. The Knick management made a tactical error in tipping their hand to Lin. What purpose would it have served? To make m ‘feel better’ for 3 days?. Come on!

      The Knicks told him to search out an offer. They should have stuck to that and told Lin we’ll decide when we see it. Period.

      What is the upside of saying we’ll match 9.3 million in the 3rd year but acted queasy to go higher?

      They made the cardinal sin in any negotiation of dropping their pants in the middle of it. Now they have to deal with the consequences.

      No one should be surprised at this level of incompetence coming from Dolan after watching his adroit handling of the Melo “negotiation” when he actually did have all the leverage and still ended up surrendering the kitchen sink.

      Houston being sleazy and Knicks being incompetent are not mutually exclusive ideas.

      I don’t think the Knicks’ stance made much difference. Once Houston traded Lowry and let Dragic walk, they might have bumped their offer anyway. Everyone expected the Knicks to match, regardless of what they said.

    114. ABG

      Here’s a simple way I’ve thought about this situation:

      Daryl Morey has been one of the more innovative and forward-thinking executives in the game in the past few years. While his results are in no way commensurate with the praise he has received, he’s still found and developed some very good players out of nowhere (Lowry, Scola, Dragic to name three). If Morey is willing to give this contract to Lin, I can’t see why we’d trust him less than our own bumbling buffoons at MSG.

      In fact, I would be very happy if all of our players were restricted free agents every year, and we could simply decide who to sign and for how much based on what other GM was signing the offer sheet.

      Bryan Colangelo? Don’t match (good job guys!)

      Daryl Morey? Probably match.

      Sam Presti? Match, no matter what.

    115. Degree_Absolute

      Frank: I’m actually ok with this line of thinking, except for one thing – if you have any inkling of letting him go, then you have to engage in S&T conversations. Even if you just get a 1st round pick, that’s something. Now we are losing arguably our best asset (maybe Shump is more valuable) for zippo. Not cap space, not players, not picks, nothing. zip.

      Exactly. I just don’t understand how we can justify losing him for nothing when he clearly has value and, if need be, we have two years to escape his contract before the big luxury tax hit in year 3. It makes zero sense.

    116. ptmilo

      Dear Jim,

      Please consider this urgent anthropological history lesson as its relevance will expire entirely in 36 hours. As such, I will skip to the guts of it: Do not let Daryl Morey pwn you like a straw man in a Robert Cialdini paperback!

      1983 for you was not 1983 for Daryl Morey. There were no mediocre blues guitar bands, and no groupies for the same. The only mind expanding supplements were shaped like Flintstones characters. A media “empire” meant owning both Adventure and Space Invaders for the Atari 2600. While you were considering whether to go to Herb Allen’s Sun Valley conference, Daryl was taking his turn as Dungeon Master.

      In all likelihood, he was using his quickly growing nerdspertise to pummel his fellow no-groupie-having questers into submission. But he was dreaming of bigger fish to pummel. The kind that would occasionally fly over his Ohio suburb in their Charter Jets on the way to Sun Valley. But he could wait. Time, Bill James, and the lack of credible alternative uses of free time, were on his side. That time draws nigh.

      What does every good Dungeon Master cum game theorist, except the management team of JC Penney, know about manipulating their trading partners? People anchor. Violently. A 40% off red-tagged item smiles like a bullfrog at you next to an identically priced but plain-spoken neighbor. You should know this! People will gladly shell out $10 a month for HBO, but when Reed Hastings tries to moderately raise the anchor on his established price point, you get the Boston Tea Party.

      Early reports incorrectly put the Rockets offering at $31 over 4 years. But a lack of competitive bids gave Morey an opening. That opening was to play you like a fiddle, or maybe in his case a recorder. He flashed you a faux price, dizzying your senses, and left you blaming your own prodigal sun for a bait and switch that never happened. For 29 years he has dog-eared Dale Carnegie preparing for this moment. Don’t…

    117. Caleb

      formido:

      Trade Lin and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope that Knicks are contenders next year. Hope is dashed. Hope is gone.

      This is why I’m so ticked off. I want to think about a championship, not just a playoff team.

      Of course Dolan doesn’t care – the team will sell out, either way.

      But the Hahn column is the first bit of hopeful news I’ve seen…

    118. Thomas B.

      Brian Cronin: Lin outplayed D-Will in their first game and then D-Will put on a show in the rematch. However, in the rematch, Lin put up a 21 point, 7 rebounds, 9 assist game. Williams had an amazing game, but to act like Lin was outclassed is unfair.

      And yes, Lin is not as good as one of the greatest guards of the past decade. Duly noted.

      He is, though, at least as good as Rodney Stuckey, Aaron Afflalo, Mike Conley, all guys making the same amount of money as Lin is scheduled to make.

      Plus Lin is clearly the best guy that they can add to this capped out team and signing him to $8.3 million does not negatively affect their roster flexibility at all. It can only help.

      It can only help if he plays at something above average for the position. I have not seen him do that for even half a season yet. so I do not have faith that he can. Oh and the last thing on the Williams games

      You are right, Lin a decent standard boxscore. You didnt mention the 3 turnovers, 6 fouls, and .389 from the floor. Also it was freaking NJ. A lineup that included a who’s who of who’s on the waiver wire. Marshon Brooks, Deshawn Stevenson, Kris Humpries?! They might as well have called that team “Deron Williams and the Straight Shot.”

      Lin had no answer at all for Williams. None. I think that guy is closer to the real Lin than the guy we saw against the Lakers. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

      I do not get why you are averaging the salary without adding in the lux tax? It’s isnt the same as the other players who don’t add so much to the payroll. How do we know that isnt just a flash in the pan from Lin. We have seen this before you know and the player never again comes close to duplicating what he did.

    119. Count de Pennies

      Frank O.: NY fans are so wound up, so ready to be screwed, that when the Knicks match Lin, there is going to be an outpouring of good will from which the Knicks will instantly profit.
      Guarantee boxes will sell out, season ticket holders will sell out, merchandise will go through the roof.

      If the owner were anyone but Dolan, I’d second this.

      Unfortunately, this theory presupposes a level of forethought and marketing savvy that Dolan simply does not possess.

      More to the point, it’s based on a presumption that Dolan actually gives a shit about the Knick fanbase and what it might want. Dolan will grant the wishes of that fanbase the same consideration he once did when it religiously chanted “Fire Isiah!” at every home game.

      Dude is pure id, unmoved by the admonishments of the fan ego or the relatively weak Walsh/Grunwald superego.

    120. Spree8nyk8

      @136 I’ve asked so many people this question and since you know the answer maybe you can tell me. I keep seeing people say that they have “seen this before”. Can you please give me a list even if it’s just one, of a player that put up a 20+ PER in his first 25 starts that went on to be a flash in the pan?

    121. Degree_Absolute

      Caleb: But the Hahn column is the first bit of hopeful news I’ve seen…

      The pessimist in me says that this is just Hahn desperately trying to hang on to his credibility. Hahn had built up a lot of capital with the fans over the years, but MSG had him use a healthy chunk of it when they put him in full “Throw Lin under bus” mode yesterday. Anyone with a brain knows full well it would be stupid not to match this offer and he probably begged his bosses let him keep a few scraps of credibility in the wake of what he expects to be MSG’s next moronic decision.

    122. bobneptune

      Spree8nyk8:
      @136 I’ve asked so many people this question and since you know the answer maybe you can tell me.I keep seeing people say that they have “seen this before”.Can you please give me a list even if it’s just one, of a player that put up a 20+ PER in his first 25 starts that went on to be a flash in the pan?

      I guess Shane Spencer and Kevin Maas don’t count? :-)

    123. The Raging Platypus

      Thomas B.: It can only help if he plays at something above average for the position.I have not seen him do that for even half a season yet. so I do not have faith that he can.Oh and the last thing on the Williams games

      You are right, Lin a decent standard boxscore. You didnt mention the 3 turnovers, 6 fouls, and .389 from the floor. Also it was freaking NJ. A lineup that included a who’s who of who’s on the waiver wire. Marshon Brooks, Deshawn Stevenson, Kris Humpries?! They might as well have called that team “Deron Williams and the Straight Shot.”

      Lin had no answer at all for Williams. None.I think that guy is closer to the real Lin than the guy we saw against the Lakers. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

      I do not get why you are averaging the salary without adding in the lux tax?It’s isnt the same as the other players who don’t add so much to the payroll.How do we know that isnt just a flash in the pan from Lin.We have seen this before you know and the player never again comes close to duplicating what he did.

      I don’t know about that last line, Thomas. Have we really seen this before? I don’t believe there’s ever been a player like Lin who has burst onto the scene in his first real taste of playing time and put up the same sort of transcendental numbers.

      That’s what makes it hard for me to pass him off as just another flash in the pan. There isn’t much historical precedent for what Jeremy in those 25 games.

    124. Spree8nyk8

      bobneptune: I guess Shane Spencer and Kevin Maas don’t count?:-)

      If they did it then of course they count, I was asking because I don’t actually know. And I haven’t met anyone that did know. But they put up a 20+ PER for their first 25 starts? You are sure?

    125. Thomas B.

      SSS: Wait, you mean the game where Deron couldn’t miss on a series of step-back 3-pointers?You replay that game 100 times, with Deron taking the same shots each time, and I think a majority of the time Lin ends up with the better game.And you could put almost any PG in the game on Deron and he’d still end up with the same numbers – if you’re going to knock down shots like that, you’re unstoppable.Not sure how we blame that on Lin.

      Thank you for helping me make my point. A game where Williams is hot is just Williams getting hot, but the game where Lin is hot is a sign that he is the guy to lead us to a title? People are taking 35 games, and the best bits from those 35, and using that the predict what this guy might be. I think this is out of control. There is not enough info available to nuts over. We arent talking two years of data here like we can do with Fields. This is the best bits from 35 games.

      So what that he set some record for the first X starts. Big deal. It is still just the best bits from 35 games.

    126. Frank

      @136 – you should check out this article, written by a guy (Tim Kawakami for SJ mercury news) who has covered Lin for years:

      http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2012/07/16/whats-jeremy-lin-worth-the-wild-the-innocent-the-24-8m-shuffle/

      Also – I think the real Lin is somewhere between the Lakers game and the 2nd Nets game. But in the back of my mind, I wonder if you might be right. There were definitely times after the initial burst of Linsanity when he didn’t totally look like he belonged on the court. I’m not sure you can say that about any of the other guys in the top 10 for PG PER.

      That being said – he’s only 23. He’s only had a couple summers to really work on his game with real pros. But it’s not an easy call – at the end of the day his contract could cost the knicks $75M+ over 3 years. So I understand the idea that maybe that’s too expensive even for Dolan. but it’s unforgivable to let your best asset go for NOTHING.

    127. Caleb

      fwiw, I was just taking another look at the luxury tax details. It really is incredible. But there’s a lot of variability.
      http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

      I am tentatively guessing the cap and tax line will go up – we keep hearing about record attendance and new TV deals. If it’s a $60 million cap next year and $62 million the following year ($73 million and $75 million lux tax)…

      In 2012-2013, Lin probably costs them about $5 million in luxury tax.

      In 2013-2014, it’s about $8 million – assuming we mostly flesh out our roster with cheap deals.

      In 2014-2015, it looks to be about $60-65 million. Wow! But it would be easy to reduce… give away Camby/Kidd/Felton, trade Shump for a pick, etc… e.g. just give away the 3 old guys and that tax payment goes to about $25 million.

      Plus, every million the lux tax line goes up or down, our lux tax payment goes up or down by $4.75 million. That’s a lot of variability. If we somehow trade Amare for someone making half as much, our luxury tax bill goes down by $50 million, no?

      In 2015-2016 and 2016-2017, there are no real tax implications – if we hit tax territory, it’ll be independent of what we give to Lin.

      Let’s say he plays like Goran Dragic, and we re-work the deal at $9 million per. Over 5 years, that’s $43 million in salary, and anywhere from $20 million to $80 million in luxury tax. IMO it would not be hard to keep it in the $40 million range.

      This summer is a good example of how NBA teams screw up their cap – it’s not with the big deals, it’s all the small overpayments. In 2015 it looks like we’ll be giving $11 million to Camby, Kidd and Felton… which with Lin on board will be costing us more than $50 million in luxury tax. Or without Lin, still costs us around $20 million in luxury tax. Are Ray Felton and two 40-year-olds worth $10 million apiece, that season?

      I mean, there’s a decent chance we can move those guys, but it comes at a cost. Why put yourself in that position?

    128. Cousyfan

      Does anybody remember how many years it took the Boston Redsocks to overcome the “Bambino Curse?” They finally did win a World Series! Doesn’t this remind you?
      I am 83, I will not be able to out live JD.
      Cheers!

    129. The Raging Platypus

      Spree8nyk8: If they did it then of course they count, I was asking because I don’t actually know.And I haven’t met anyone that did know.But they put up a 20+ PER for their first 25 starts?You are sure?

      Heh, those are baseball players, so I believe bob was just tugging on your chain a bit. =)

    130. Thomas B.

      That’s what makes it hard for me to pass him off as just another flash in the pan.There isn’t much historical precedent for what Jeremy in those 25 games.

      That is what makes is so hard for me to go all in on this guy. I guess I’m not a risk taker. I’m sure by late December I’ll be wishing we kept him, if for no other reason that I am not at all pleased to have Raymond Felton back. I’m mean, I know that Lin could be good or bad, but I’m not sure that Felton can be good. Oh well. Time will tell.

      Besides this may all be a waste of time. Maybe some 11th hour match is coming afterall. But if it does and he doesn’t put up a WS/48 of at least .125, I’m going to rant.

    131. Spree8nyk8

      Man I’ll bet you if Lin would have found a cure for cancer in his spare time you’d get off his back.

    132. Frank

      Thomas B.: So what that he set some record for the first X starts. Big deal. It is still just the best bits from 35 games.

      Actually that’s why you use statistics. He had a PER of 20 in a reasonably large sample, which was good for 10th among all PGs in the league. That number includes his good games AND his bad games. And even before this, he completely dominated the D-league, as you would expect a very good player to. In high school wasn’t he CA player of the year? And his #s against the good competition in college were actually quite strong.

      Again, part of me agrees with your overall line of thinking -but not this thing where you think his stats don’t represent the bad as well as the good. And we should also remember – he was playing with a torn meniscus for some portion of the post-Linsanity period.

    133. bobneptune

      Caleb: Houston being sleazy and Knicks being incompetent are not mutually exclusive ideas.

      Again, for precision’s sake , what precisely “sleazy” did Houston do? Put out misinformation?

      slea·zy/?sl?z?/
      Adjective:

      (of a person or situation) Sordid, corrupt, or immoral.
      (of a place) Squalid and seedy.

      Me no see any sleazy in this business negotiation…….

    134. Caleb

      bobneptune: Again, for precision’s sake , what precisely “sleazy” did Houston do? Put out misinformation?

      slea·zy/?sl?z?/
      Adjective:

      (of a person or situation) Sordid, corrupt, or immoral. (of a place) Squalid and seedy.

      Me no see any sleazy in this business negotiation…….

      asked and answered!

    135. bobneptune

      bobneptune: Again, for precision’s sake , what precisely “sleazy” did Houston do? Put out misinformation?

      slea·zy/?sl?z?/
      Adjective:

      (of a person or situation) Sordid, corrupt, or immoral. (of a place) Squalid and seedy.

      Me no see any sleazy in this business negotiation…….

      Sordid, corrupt or immoral. Sorry, I don’t see them. Asked and answered is a nice way to concede an argument, though

    136. SSS

      Thomas B.: I guess I’m not a risk taker.

      But what’s the risk? Dolan paying extra money? Its not like matching Lin will prevent the front office from making another move, mainly because they can’t make any other moves. Its either Lin or players at the minimum for the foreseeable future.

    137. Caleb

      Caleb:

      This summer is a good example of how NBA teams screw up their cap – it’s not with the big deals, it’s all the small overpayments.

      …though worth pointing out, even without Lin around, Melo and Amare will cost the Knicks more than $50 million *apiece* in 2015-2016, counting luxury tax.

      If Lin stays, those two are costing the Knicks more than $130 million apiece, for just that one season. (with a $4.75 per $1 repeater tax – right?)

      I know the math is a little weird, if we managed to trade one the other’s cost would go down, as well (closer to the tax line). but you get the point..

    138. Thomas B.

      formido:
      Let’s be clear why people are so upset. People want to hope for a championship. Just a hope. Maybe Lin turns out average. But his upside seems to be significantly more than that. The best argument against Lin is only that his awesome aggregate stats are based on a small sample. That’s a weak argument against hope. Hope is still there. Right now, people hope that 7-1 means something. People hope that 15 ppg margin of victory and three wins over playoff teams during that stretch means something. That’s hope.

      Trade Lin and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope that Knicks are contenders next year. Hope is dashed. Hope is gone.

      I want a title as much as the next fan. But to get a title, don’t you have to play against other title contenders? If so, Lin’s performance against other title worthy teams makes me afraid.

      Some of his worst games can against Eastern Conference Playoff teams.
      Miami on 2/23
      Boston on 3/4
      Philly on 3/11
      Chi on 3/12
      Philly on 3/21
      Indy on 3/16

      His best game against an EC playoff team was Indy on 3/17. Most of these bad games against good teams came well after the Linsanity period. I think this stretch better shows what Lin really is. So if the guy isnt playing well against the best teams in the conference, why do we think he is the key to a title?

    139. The Raging Platypus

      Thomas B.: That is what makes is so hard for me to go all in on this guy.I guess I’m not a risk taker.I’m sure by late December I’ll be wishing we kept him, if for no other reason that I am not at all pleased to have Raymond Felton back.I’m mean, I know that Lin could be good or bad, but I’m not sure that Felton can be good.Oh well. Time will tell.

      Besides this may all be a waste of time. Maybe some 11th hour match is coming afterall.But if it does and he doesn’t put up a WS/48 of at least .125, I’m going to rant.

      Normally I’d be right there with you when it comes to taking on this kind of massive risk – and it is most definitely a massive risk, albeit with very calculated upside (I think of these things in terms of beta coefficients, and wouldn’t even know where to begin with Jeremy), but at least the financial risk is most ameliorated by that stretch provision.

      I suppose my inherent homerism and irrational support for players of Asian descent makes me overvalue the positive arguments. =)

    140. SSS

      Thomas B.: This is the best bits from 35 games.

      Pretty sure most people are citing his average numbers over the 35 games. Which is about 35X more reliable than focusing on the one Nets game, where I’m arguing he actually had a good game and is being unfairly blamed for events beyond his reasonable control (i.e., 8 three-pointers, many of them contested).

    141. Thomas B.

      SSS: But what’s the risk?Dolan paying extra money?Its not like matching Lin will prevent the front office from making another move, mainly because they can’t make any other moves.Its either Lin or players at the minimum for the foreseeable future.

      I think high cost players who ae not performing are hard to move without taking back even worse players. I think we may create a situation in which we can’t really move anyone. It is already next to impossible to move STAT. You really don’t want to move Chandler and you likley wont get the value you want for Melo. Nearly 15 million three years from now for a guy who very well could be significantly underperforming. I just don’t want to do it. But yes, this is not my money per se. I just want to not make a bad cap number worst. I’d do it for Williams or Paul sure because they are proven. I have more than 35 games to evaluate. They had success at every level. It is solid footing. Lin is very shaky and I just wonder if 10 years from now hell be number one on a list of “Where are thay now?” or “Players who just didn’t live up to the hype” on SI.com.

    142. ephus

      Caleb: …though worth pointing out, even without Lin around, Melo and Amare will cost the Knicks more than $50 million *apiece* in 2015-2016, counting luxury tax.
      If Lin stays, those two are costing the Knicks more than $130 million apiece, for just that one season. (with a $4.75 per $1 repeater tax – right?)

      You are assuming that the Knicks bring back both Amar’e and ‘Melo at their 2014-15 salary, which I do not think is a fair assumption.

      As of right now, the Knicks have a fairly clean sheet for 2015-16. The only obligation is Novak @ $3.75 million. If the Knicks want to retain Bird Rights on Shumpert, they would have to make a qualifying offer of around $3.9 million. The ‘Bockers may get below the tax threshold in 2015-16 in order to avoid the repeater tax.

      As the past forty-eight hours have demonstrated, you never know what will happen next in Knickland. It’s beyond premature to guess about the tax situation four seasons from now.

    143. Frank

      Caleb: …though worth pointing out, even without Lin around, Melo and Amare will cost the Knicks more than $50 million *apiece* in 2015-2016, counting luxury tax.

      If Lin stays, those two are costing the Knicks more than $130 million apiece, for just that one season. (with a $4.75 per $1 repeater tax – right?)

      I know the math is a little weird, if we managed to trade one the other’s cost would go down, as well (closer to the tax line). but you get the point..

      I think the luxury tax is paid on a marginal tax rate basis (hope I’m using the right terminology) such that it’s $1.50:$1 for the first $5MM over the tax line (so 7.5MM total for first $5MM), then $1.75:$1 for the the 2nd $5MM, and so forth. So even if you’re $20MM over the tax line and the highest rate if $3.75:$1, that higher rate only applies to the $ over and above the $20MM.

      So if the Knicks were $25MM over the tax line, the total tax due would be:
      $5MM on the first 5MM
      $8.75MM for the 2nd $5MM
      12.5MM for the 3rd 5MM
      16.25MM for the 4th 5 MM
      18.75MM for the last 5MM.

      So total tax would be $61.25MM, not $25MM * the highest rate (*3.75 = 93.75MM).

    144. Z

      Frank:
      What do you guys think the fan reaction would be if the Knicks ultimately match Lin and then release a statement like this:

      “We are delighted that Jeremy will be a New York Knick. We were surprised by the change in his offer from the Houston Rockets, and decided we wanted to use the full 3 days allotted to us by the CBA to fully research our options and our internal finances, since just the luxury tax payments we may be liable for in 2014-15 are more than the ENTIRE PAYROLLS of most of the other teams in this league.It is a testament to how much we believe in Jeremy Lin and his future that we are going ahead and making this kind of financial commitment to him. We truly believe having him as part of our team will give our franchise the best chance at winning an NBA championship. We have the greatest fans in the world, and they deserve no less than the most careful and reasoned approach to team-building and management”.

      For me, personally, I feel the Knicks have damaged themselves, possibly beyond repair. I’ve spent a lot of time the past few days examining why I follow this team, this league, and this sport. Objectively, it is really hard to come up with logical reasons. Subjectively, it is hard for some reason to let go of something that I’ve done without questioning for 30 years. But at the same time, there has been so little pleasure to come from the time I’ve invested, save for a two week period of immense enjoyment which coincidentally happened just as I was about to hang up my Knick shoes forever.

      I really, really, really don’t like Carmelo Anthony. I’ve tried to tolerate him as a fan, but I’m at an age now where my time is more valuable than it used to be. I really liked Gallinari, I really liked Fields. I loved Lin. I like Shump and Novak, but somehow I just don’t fell like that’s enough to keep me engaged.

    145. KJG

      Z:
      I really, really, really don’t like Carmelo Anthony. I’ve tried to tolerate him as a fan, but I’m at an age now where my time is more valuable than it used to be.

      He’s completely unlikable… I feel you

    146. ephus

      Frank: I think the luxury tax is paid on a marginal tax rate basis (hope I’m using the right terminology) such that it’s $1.50:$1 for the first $5MM over the tax line (so 7.5MM total for first $5MM), then $1.75:$1 for the the 2nd $5MM, and so forth. So even if you’re $20MM over the tax line and the highest rate if $3.75:$1, that higher rate only applies to the $ over and above the $20MM.
      So if the Knicks were $25MM over the tax line, the total tax due would be:
      $5MM on the first 5MM
      $8.75MM for the 2nd $5MM
      12.5MM for the 3rd 5MM
      16.25MM for the 4th 5 MM
      18.75MM for the last 5MM.
      So total tax would be $61.25MM, not $25MM * the highest rate (*3.75 = 93.75MM).

      If the Knicks are over the tax line in 2015-16, the numbers get worse because of the repeater tax.

      If the Knicks were $25 MM over line and subject to the repeater tax, the total tax bill would be:

      $12.5 MM on the first $5 million (250% tax rate)
      $13.75 MM on the next $5 million (275% tax rate)
      $17.5 MM on the next $5 million (350% tax rate)
      $21.25 MM on the next $5 million (425% tax rate)
      $23.75 MM on the last $5 million (475% tax rate)

      For a total of $88.75 million in tax. I stongly doubt that Dolan would allow the team to be that far over the tax line if they were subject to the repeater tax.

    147. Z

      McAdont:
      @ http://www.change.org

      New York Knicks Management: Keep Jeremy Lin – Match the Houston Rockets’ Offer – Sign the Petition!

      If you need to petition your team to be good at basketball, they are probably not going to be good at basketball.

    148. Thomas B.

      SSS: Pretty sure most people are citing his average numbers over the 35 games.Which is about 35X more reliable than focusing on the one Netsgame, where I’m arguing he actually had a good game and is being unfairly blamed for events beyond his reasonable control (i.e., 8 three-pointers, many of them contested).

      Yes they are average numbers. But for only 35 games. When most people are viewed for 3-4 for seasons before getting a deal like that, making the decision based on 35 games is about the same as looking at any one game from a season. 35 games vs. 328 games. Would you make an evaluation on something based on 10% of what should be available to you? Would you pay full price for a car that they only let you see a sliver of? I don’t like being forced to make this decision based on a 35 game sample.

      But lets say he was a second round pick like Fields and could get a RFA deal after two seasons. Lin’s career games are 48% of what you’d see from a 2nd round pick over the past two seasons. Did he play well enough in that sample to justify that kind of contract?

      You might be tempted to say that an average player like Fields got contract averaging around 6 million, so why not give an average of 9 million to Lin? But if you think that way you are justifying your mistake by putting it in context of other mistakes. Toronto overpays Fields, so NYC should overpay Lin. That makes no sense.

    149. Thomas B.

      Z: If you need to petition your team to be good at basketball, they are probably not going to be good at basketball.

      Ha!

    150. Caleb

      ephus: You are assuming that the Knicks bring back both Amar’e and ‘Melo at their 2014-15 salary, which I do not think is a fair assumption.

      As of right now, the Knicks have a fairly clean sheet for 2015-16.The only obligation is Novak @ $3.75 million.If the Knicks want to retain Bird Rights on Shumpert, they would have to make a qualifying offer of around $3.9 million. The ‘Bockers may get below the tax threshold in 2015-16 in order to avoid the repeater tax.

      As the past forty-eight hours have demonstrated, you never know what will happen next in Knickland.It’s beyond premature to guess about the tax situation four seasons from now.

      My bad, I meant in 2014-2015, not 2015-2016.

      My numbers are about right for that season, no?

    151. Caleb

      ephus: If the Knicks are over the tax line in 2015-16, the numbers get worse because of the repeater tax.

      If the Knicks were $25 MM over line and subject to the repeater tax, the total tax bill would be:

      $12.5 MM on the first $5 million (250% tax rate)
      $13.75 MM on the next $5 million (275% tax rate)
      $17.5 MM on the next $5 million (350% tax rate)
      $21.25 MM on the next $5 million (425% tax rate)
      $23.75 MM on the last $5 million (475% tax rate)

      For a total of $88.75 million in tax.I stongly doubt that Dolan would allow the team to be that far over the tax line if they were subject to the repeater tax.

      Also, why wouldn’t we be subject to the repeater tax in 2014-2015? It will be our 3rd year in a row as a taxpayer. Or does the current season not count?

      If the current season does’t count towards your “3 out of 4,” the Lin hit in 2015 is a little better, though still huge.

    152. JC Knickfan

      Luxury Tax is not based on one player salary. There nothing Stopping Knicks from trading one Big 3 player in 2014-2015.

      If Lin actually become all-star, but in year 3 Knicks don’t pay huge luxury tax then they option to move one Big 3 who all have expiring contracts. Heck Melo might even opt-out saving them the trouble.

      Consider we went from Layden to Thomas salary cap debacle, Knicks now worried about cap salary does kill me. In 2006 Knicks had team salary of $117,024,192 plus they paid 40+ millions tax for a team that posted 33-49 record.

    153. arthurprescott2

      iserp:
      My 2 cents on Lin:

      Most of you are blaming Dolan on the decision of not matching Lin (let’s see). But i believe it is Grunwald and Woodson’s, that they think Lin is not a good player. They weren’t going to offer $24 million / 4 years, and they couldn’t work a S&T because Lin could always get a bigger offer on FA. I guess they hoped nobody would tie their cap space with a big offer if they announced the world they would match anything; and then they would lowball Lin. If they really thought Lin is a good player, they wouldn’t have given such big contracts (4 million Novak, 3 Kidd, 3 Camby) to compensate the tax hit. But our FO has considered those 3 individually more important than Jeremy.

      IMHO, Linsanity was a good fluke (wild shots going in / driving into a well defended lane and then lucking out an assist / …) combined with the best possible conditions (No other scorer on the team, a long list of bad teams with PGs that are not great defenders, …). And in that sense, i understand that a contract like Lin is not worth $60 million (or whatever figure). However, i don’t think that Felton or Kidd are better, :S. I am putting my hopes that Prigioni can still play at high level.

      THIS. I think this is part of it. Woodson just doesn’t trust him. ESPN Radio was strongly implying this yesterday.

    154. Ben R

      Why do we keep talking about the tax hit when it is independent of lin’s salary. Yes, he is the latest salary we will have added but the tax is a result of all the contracts on the Knicks. Should we not draft a player in next years draft because he is not worth the 10 million dollar tax hit his contract will cost. If we are concerned about the taxes we can have a fire sale before the 14/15 season and reduce our tax burden.

      We need to look at Lin’s contract just for what it is 3 years 25 million. Not for the possible luxury tax implications three years down the line when even at 15 million he will be only the third or fourth highest paid player on the Knicks so will not be the primary reason we’re over the tax line.

    155. JK47

      In a vacuum, I could deal with Jeremy Lin leaving. Perhaps he doesn’t become a star, and ends up becoming way overpaid.

      But what’s really upsetting everybody is that this team is basically just flushing the next three years down the toilet. They will not even have the chance that Lin will break out and become a star. Instead his position is being manned by a guy entering his age 39 season and another guy who has been substantially below average over his 8-year career.

      The Knicks are an absolute LOCK to get below-average performance out of the PG position. Another thing that is an absolute lock is that the Knicks will not, over the next three years, get another opportunity to add a talent like Lin.

      What happens in 2013-2014 when Kidd is in his age 40 season? Then the following year when he’s 41? I’ll tell you what happens– the Knicks will once again be scrambling to find even a replacement level PG, just like they did this year.

      Some of us around here can see the writing on the wall– the ceiling for this team for the next three years is mediocrity. The floor is fiery train wreck. After so many years of shitty basketball, some of us aren’t prepared for another three years of that. Some of us have had our optimism completely exhausted.

      If a miracle happens and Lin returns, I’ll suspend my disbelief and give this team another shot. If not, I’m done. I don’t want to watch three seasons of a mediocre team playing out the string until their bad contracts expire. It’s not fun anymore.

    156. er

      so honestly if the knicks win 50+ and go to the ecf without lin will all of you guys upset still want nothing to do with this team?

    157. er

      why is melo so unlikeable, i always wondered this? ….Is it cus of his terrible media savvy?

      KJG: He’s completely unlikable… I feel you

    158. ephus

      Caleb: Also, why wouldn’t we be subject to the repeater tax in 2014-2015? It will be our 3rd year in a row as a taxpayer. Or does the current season not count?

      If the current season does’t count towards your “3 out of 4,” the Lin hit in 2015 is a little better, though still huge.

      The Knicks cannot hit the “repeater tax” until 2015-16, because the Knicks did not cross the tax line this year. The “repeater tax” rates only apply to a team that is above the tax line that year AND were above the tax line in three of the prior four years. In 2014-15, the only teams that can conceivably be subject to the “repeater tax rates” are the six that paid tax this year (Lakers, Heat, Magic, Spurs, Bulls and Hawks). I would bet strongly against the Spurs, Bulls, Magic or Hawks being above the tax line this year.

      The numbers quoted in @168 are almost correct. The one mistake is that the tax rate on the first $5 million is 150%, so the tax is $7.5 million (not $5 million). That makes the total tax hit for being $25 million over the threshold in 2014-15 $63.75 million (not $61.25 million).

      It is certainly true that the Knicks can reduce or avoid tax liability by trading high salary players. But it will be very difficult for the Knicks to trade away players without taking salary back. Larry Coon has repeatedly written that Stat is not currently tradable at all, no matter whom the Knicks take back, because his contract is uninsurable. I do not know if the Knicks could trade ‘Melo or Chandler for nothing but draft picks and cap space. Even if Dolan could make such a trade, I doubt that he would.

    159. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      er:
      so honestly if the knicks win 50+ and go to the ecf without lin will all of you guys upset still want nothing to do with this team?

      Do you honestly think the Knicks can win two rounds of playoff basketball? You’re in ruruland-level delusion if you think this is going to happen.

    160. Ben R

      I’m really tired of seeing every promising young knick shipped out first chance. The last knick draft pick to play more than 5 years on the Knicks is Charlie Ward before that Patrick Ewing. In total 4 players (Ward, Ewing, Wilkins, Tucker) have been drafted by the Knivks and gone on to last more than 5 years on our team in the last 30 years.

      Now we have an incredibly unrootable team that is mediocre anyway and one promising young player that we simply haven’t gotten around to moving yet. It’s no fun being a Knicks fan. No loyalty, no homegrown talent. We sell the farm for unlikable stars like Melo and Marbury and then jettison young talent for washed up vets like Kidd and Francis.

    161. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Ben R:
      I’m really tired of seeing every promising young knick shipped out first chance. The last knick draft pick to play more than 5 years on the Knicks is Charlie Ward before that Patrick Ewing. In total 4 players (Ward, Ewing, Wilkins, Tucker) have been drafted by the Knivks and gone on to last more than 5 years on our team in the last 30 years.

      Now we have an incredibly unrootable team that is mediocre anyway and one promising young player that we simply haven’t gotten around to moving yet. It’s no fun being a Knicks fan. No loyalty, no homegrown talent. We sell the farm for unlikable stars like Melo and Marbury and then jettison young talent for washed up vets like Kidd and Francis.

      Again, I can’t tell you how excited I’d be if our team were Ty Lawson, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, DeJuan Blair, Jerome Jordan, Jae Crowder, Marcus Denmon, and like, anyone efficient with the $40M in cap space we’d have after those players. I don’t see a problem with this. I mean, Landry Fields had his image on a billboard at MSG. When are owners going to realize that big-name superstars don’t sell tickets nearly as well as wins do?

    162. thenamestsam

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Do you honestly think the Knicks can win two rounds of playoff basketball? You’re in ruruland-level delusion if you think this is going to happen.

      Not addressed to me, can and will are two pretty different things. but “Can they”? Sure. Most things can happen under some unlikely set of circumstances. Look at Boston this year. One critical injury and one moderately fluky stretch of good play and all the sudden you’ve won two rounds. We can be in that same situation. However, our odds of that happening have greatly diminished in the last couple days and I’d say the odds are now vanishingly small. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen though.

    163. er

      no one is guaranteed to do anything, but i see the knicks as top 3-4 with or without lin
      6ers will be worse
      indy is scared of the knicks
      chi isnt heathy and lost cj watson
      nets arent as good

      so im kinda mystified by all of this pessimism over one player,

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Do you honestly think the Knicks can win two rounds of playoff basketball? You’re in ruruland-level delusion if you think this is going to happen.

    164. arthurprescott2

      Why is there a segment of fans who feel the need to disparage Lin’s game and character by pointing to hearsay “unethical” behavior/disloyalty/Heat game?

    165. er

      shumpert

      Ben R:
      I’m really tired of seeing every promising young knick shipped out first chance. The last knick draft pick to play more than 5 years on the Knicks is Charlie Ward before that Patrick Ewing. In total 4 players (Ward, Ewing, Wilkins, Tucker) have been drafted by the Knivks and gone on to last more than 5 years on our team in the last 30 years.

      Now we have an incredibly unrootable team that is mediocre anyway and one promising young player that we simply haven’t gotten around to moving yet. It’s no fun being a Knicks fan. No loyalty, no homegrown talent. We sell the farm for unlikable stars like Melo and Marbury and then jettison young talent for washed up vets like Kidd and Francis.

    166. er

      except that team wont win much

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Again, I can’t tell you how excited I’d be if our team were Ty Lawson, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, DeJuan Blair, Jerome Jordan, Jae Crowder, Marcus Denmon, and like, anyone efficient with the $40M in cap space we’d have after those players. I don’t see a problem with this. I mean, Landry Fields had his image on a billboard at MSG. When are owners going to realize that big-name superstars don’t sell tickets nearly as well as wins do?

    167. PrecociousNeophyte

      Why is a “win now” team worried about tax implications 3 years from now?

    168. arthurprescott2

      er:
      same can be said about melo…hes blamed for everything so dont lose sleep over lin

      But I expect that from “regular” fans on ESPN boards. Not here. Cherry picking games is obviously not the best argument but it persists.

      And with regards to Melo, he doesn’t seem to be able to filter the words coming out of his mouth so some of it is deserved on his part (NOT that I blame him in anyway for pushing Lin out).

    169. jon abbey

      I’ve been kind of neutral about this, but with Thomas B being for letting Lin go, I now think we should definitely keep him.

    170. Caleb

      ephus: The Knicks cannot hit the “repeater tax” until 2015-16, because the Knicks did not cross the tax line this year.The “repeater tax” rates only apply to a team that is above the tax line that year AND were above the tax line in three of the prior four years.In 2014-15, the only teams that can conceivably be subject to the “repeater tax rates” are the six that paid tax this year (Lakers, Heat, Magic, Spurs, Bulls and Hawks).I would bet strongly against the Spurs, Bulls, Magic or Hawks being above the tax line this year.

      The numbers quoted in @168 are almost correct.The one mistake is that the tax rate on the first $5 million is 150%, so the tax is $7.5 million (not $5 million).That makes the total tax hit for being $25 million over the threshold in 2014-15 $63.75 million (not $61.25 million).

      It is certainly true that the Knicks can reduce or avoid tax liability by trading high salary players.But it will be very difficult for the Knicks to trade away players without taking salary back.Larry Coon has repeatedly written that Stat is not currently tradable at all, no matter whom the Knicks take back, because his contract is uninsurable.I do not know if the Knicks could trade ‘Melo or Chandler for nothing but draft picks and cap space.Even if Dolan could make such a trade, I doubt that he would.

      Forget 2015-2016; the Knicks can avoid tax then if they want.

      But even not as a repeater, we’re facing a mammoth tax in 2014-2015. And it isn’t easy to dump salary, but the good news is: the tax is so onerous, even just dumping one modest deal can save a lot of money. Like, if we somehow pushed Jason Kidd to a contender and took $3 million off our payroll, it would save more than $12 million in tax that year.

    171. Ben R

      er:
      shumpert

      Yeah he’s the one promising young plater left that we haven’t gotten around to moving yet. We tried but LA got Nash. I wouldn’t be surprised if Shumpert is gone by the end of next summer.

    172. er

      lmao his filter is TURRIBLE as the chuckster would say

      arthurprescott2: But I expect that from “regular” fans on ESPN boards. Not here. Cherry picking games is obviously not the best argument but it persists.

      And with regards to Melo, he doesn’t seem to be able to filter the words coming out of his mouth so some of it is deserved on his part (NOT that I blame him in anyway for pushing Lin out).

    173. Tabloid_srce_haha

      Frank: Well, there was that quote from his high school coach that JLin was in shock that the Knicks were thinking about letting him go – that sounds a little like someone who thought he could keep taking from the candy jar without any repercussions. I’m pretty sure his high school coach isn’t controlled by MSG.

      And here is a direct quote from the same Lin’s high school coach Peter Diepenbrock (who is very close to LIN) after having lunch with him very recently:

      “Jeremy’s not gobbling up everything he can as far as endorsements go; he said it just takes up too much time,” Diepenbrock said. “This kid is working so hard on his game, and he’s very motivated by the fact that some people still question and doubt him.”

      http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8109984/forget-steve-nash-jeremy-lin-key-new-york-knicks-success

      This sounds like someone who “sounds someone who thought he could keep taking from the candy jar without any repercussions”?

      And does anyone doubt that the kid can get more than just one endorsement (Volvo) all season?

      Sorry about going against the grain of this wacko saga by actually naming my sources and using direct quotes. Totally unforgivable.

    174. er

      dont be so pessimistic man he will be the starting two guard for years

      Ben R: Yeah he’s the one promising young plater left that we haven’t gotten around to moving yet. We tried but LA got Nash. I wouldn’t be surprised if Shumpert is gone by the end of next summer.

    175. arthurprescott2

      er:
      dont be so pessimistic man he will be the starting two guard for years

      I hope so. Just once I would like to see young talent persist on the roster instead of being traded for (not to disparage Felton) been-there-done-that players with limited upside.

    176. Z

      jon abbey:
      I’ve been kind of neutral about this, but with Thomas B being for letting Lin go, I now think we should definitely keep him.

      See, now this is what I’ll miss. I like this community and the people (ie screennames) I’ve gotten to know here over the years. In fact, I like this site a lot more than the subject we all discuss here. If only we could talk about something besides the NBA :) (like billiards!)

    177. er

      honestly the more i think about this the more i think the knicks are just effing with lin and will bring him back at the last min

      arthurprescott2: I hope so. Just once I would like to see young talent persist on the roster instead of being traded for (not to disparage Felton) been-there-done-that players with limited upside.

    178. Frank

      arthurprescott2: And with regards to Melo, he doesn’t seem to be able to filter the words coming out of his mouth so some of it is deserved on his part (NOT that I blame him in anyway for pushing Lin out).

      That’s exactly why I wrote way above that Melo needs a new PR person. For pete’s sake, just call up Derek Jeter and find out how he has avoided controversy despite being under the glaring lights x 16 years. Some questions you should answer, others you should give no comment. It’s just dumb for a guy like him to get himself involved in this.

      Re: 2014-15 — I’m pretty sure Camby’s salary is only guaranteed for 2 years, and I would be surprised if Kidd’s salary is guaranteed for 14-15 either. Hopefully Felton’s has some sort of partial guarantee. Camby/Kidd by themselves would shave off ~7M from 2014-15 or ~$25MM in tax.

    179. arthurprescott2

      er:
      honestly the more i think about this the more i think the knicks are just effing with lin and will bring him back at the last min

      That’s what Brian has been telling himself for the past 24+ hours. But with the savage media, JR opening his mouth, and Dolan’s pride, it just seems unlikely (Note: I’m going to paint myself into a corner so that IF Lin does come back, I’ll be that much more elated).

    180. tastycakes

      Melo’s “media filter” is terrible because he’s a man of below average intelligence.

      In other words, some of us don’t like him because he’s an idiot. (And has a crazy overinflated sense of self-worth, but that’s not entirely his fault)

    181. Tabloid_srce_haha

      DS: Uh, Shump is already amazing. :)

      All the more reason to let him walk when his contract is up. The Knicks has a tradition to keep up and won’t let anything get in its way.

    182. 2FOR18

      Holy shit. Many of these posts are unreadable.

      I think that before you are permitted to post on here, this blog should require that you acknowledge, under penalty of banishment, that you have read Brian’s explanation of the tax implications re: Lin’s contract.

      How many freaking times are people going to post that Lin is no Magic Johnson and that he’d making 15 million a year, or that the Knicks are locked in to a 60 mil tax hit.

      Unfukinbelievable. I’m happy for the guys who put so much work into this site that they are getting so much traffic, but I would pay for this site if it were no longer linked from fukin ESPN.

    183. Caleb

      jon abbey:
      the always rational Nate Silver says NY would be crazy to let Lin go:

      http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/keeping-lin-should-make-financial-sense-for-the-knicks/?smid=tw-share

      key quote:
      “During the past decade or two, under the tenure of their owner James L. Dolan, the Knicks have frequently paid top dollar for brand-name players who seem to have proven their worth. Yet, these veteran players have often struggled with age and injury, their contracts becoming white elephants. What seems like a risk-averse strategy really isn’t — it’s just that all the risk is to the downside.”

    184. jon abbey

      Frank O.: the fact that MSG has already lost $50 million in value on the news that they might not sign him is telling.

      it absolutely is not, MSG stock dropped five times as much as it has today since July 3 (from 39 to 36.5, today down from 36.5 to 36), today’s move could have absolutely nothing to do with Lin.

    185. Thomas B.

      jon abbey:
      I’ve been kind of neutral about this, but with Thomas B being for letting Lin go, I now think we should definitely keep him.

      After all these years you still bother to read my comments. That mask of hostility is just that, a mask. Deep down you really do care about me. Awww shucks.

    186. Caleb

      er:
      dont be so pessimistic man he will be the starting two guard for years

      More likely he is the sweetener when we get the Lakers to take Jeremy Lin off our hands in exchange for 40-year-old Steve Nash. We” be throwing in our 2014, 2016 and 2018 draft picks to make it even.

    187. Frank O.

      jon abbey: it absolutely is not, MSG stock dropped five times as much as it has today since July 3 (from 39 to 36.5, today down from 36.5 to 36), today’s move could have absolutely nothing to do with Lin.

      It’s undeniable that its stock took off during linsanity. We’ll have to see. The kid’s value goes way beyond a salary.

    188. Thomas B.

      Frank O.: Excellent read. thanks for sharing.
      I’m convinced that Lin would add value. the fact that MSG has already lost $50 million in value on the news that they might not sign him is telling.

      Oh, well if we are talking about a business and marketing plan, then yes by all means match the offer. Sales shall abound. Stock prices soar. I am sorry everyone. See I thought this was about basketball. I was caught up looking at what the player did against the teams we need to beat in order to win a title. No, no this is about putting butts in the seats at the highest price you can get. Silly me. Forget that winning stuff, let’s keep the shareholders happy.

      Everybody sing: “Go NASDAQ Go NASDAQ Go!”

    189. JK47

      Thomas B.: Oh, well if we are talking about a business and marketing plan, then yes by all means match the offer.Sales shall abound. Stock prices soar.I am sorry everyone. See I thought this was about basketball.I was caught up looking at what the player did against the teams we need to beat in order to win a title. No, no this is about putting butt in the seats at the highest price you can get.Silly me. Forget that winning stuff, let’s keep the shareholders happy.

      Everybody sing: “Go NASDAQ Go NASDAQ Go!”

      Yes, because getting fat ass Ray Felton and his sub-.500 TS% to play PG is a great plan for winning basketball games.

    190. Thomas B.

      JK47: Yes, because getting fat ass Ray Felton and his sub-.500 TS% to play PG is a great plan for winning basketball games.

      Look at the above comments RE: my feelings on Ray Felton. I think it is a coin flip for guys who can’t get us over the hump.

    191. Frank

      You know who I sort of feel bad for in all this? Raymond Felton. He was a big fan favorite when he was here in 10-11, played really well especially at the beginning, then got traded against his will. Now he gets to come back, but he basically has zero chance of success in this situation. he could play like he did in the beginning of the 10-11 and still be measured against Linsanity.

      One thing though – if he doesn’t show up in shape and with a huge chip on his shoulder, then nothing in this world can motivate him. There have been 1000 articles and probably 1 billion tweets written in the last 48h about how fat and sucky he is.

    192. Thomas B.

      jon abbey:
      I’ve been kind of neutral about this, but with Thomas B being for letting Lin go, I now think we should definitely keep him.

      We also didn’t see eye-to-eye on bringing in Baron Davis if you recall. How did that work out?

    193. Jafa

      The sad thing is that the first half of the 2001-11 was the highlight of Felton’s 7+ year career in the league. And it pales in comparison to Jeremy Lin’s 30 or so game sample in his first crack at the NBA.

      Gentlemen, we have just reached the ceiling of our potential. I hope its enough to win a title in the next 3 years.

    194. JK47

      Jeremy Lin had a .140 WS/48 last season in his first extended playing time in the NBA. He was 23 years old. What are the odds Lin has a breakout, .180+ WS/48 season? I dunno, low, like maybe 10%. But what are the odds he improves a bit, say a 10-15% improvement? I’d say the odds of that are fairly high, like 30% at least. So now he’d be in the .160 range. That’s a pretty nice player. That’s a Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams type season. If he plays exactly the same as he did last year, that’s still a damn fine player.

      On the other hand, the odds that Ray Felton puts up a .160 WS/48 season are approximately zero minus infinity. The odds are that Ray Felton is going to be far, far worse than Jeremy Lin, like at least 75-80 points of WS/48 worse. Last year Lin beat him by 98 points.

      You’re paying for the upside, and there is a very good likelihood that the 23-year old Lin maintains or improves on his performance. 940 minutes is not a tiny sample size. He has already played in the NBA at a high level.

      And if you say the word “defense” I urge you to look at Synergy, which basically says that the athletic Lin is a better defender than the tubby Felton. Felton’s defense has always been incredibly overrated.

    195. JK47

      Jafa:
      The sad thing is that the first half of the 2001-11 was the highlight of Felton’s 7+ year career in the league.And it pales in comparison to Jeremy Lin’s 30 or so game sample in his first crack at the NBA.

      Gentlemen, we have just reached the ceiling of our potential.I hope its enough to win a title in the next 3 years.

      Oh, it’s enough to win a title. Unfortunately the title is “NBA’s Dumbest Franchise.”

    196. massive

      I wish Dolan would just open his wallet and close his mouth, because he’s doing the exact opposite right now.

    197. Thomas B.

      JK47:
      Jeremy Lin had a .140 WS/48 last season in his first extended playing time in the NBA.He was 23 years old.What are the odds Lin has a breakout, .180+ WS/48 season?I dunno, low, like maybe 10%.But what are the odds he improves a bit, say a 10-15% improvement?I’d say the odds of that are fairly high, like 30% at least.So now he’d be in the .160 range.That’s a pretty nice player.That’s a Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams type season.If he plays exactly the same as he did last year, that’s still a damn fine player.

      What are the odds that he slips by 15%-30% and becomes a .100-.125 WS/48 player? I’d say this is more likely than anything. Why would anyone pay a guy 9 million when the most likely thing is that he will be an average nba point?

    198. JC Knickfan

      If Lin is not match, Felton trade will be forever tied to Lin. Also we gave up Jeffries who 10 year younger then Thomas who did like first time already. But Knicks are really taking getting veteran to new level. Has there every been this many 40 years player one team?

      I’m sure Rocket will continue make moves before start, but Lin probably feature scorer. With the Knicks luck he going put up monster numbers and this will be listed one worst deal every.

      At start of NBA season
      Kurt Thomas will be 40
      Raymond Felton will be 28

      Jeremy Lin will be 24
      Jared Jeffries will be 30
      Unknown Kostas Papanikolaou and Georgios Prentezis

    199. Robtachi

      Brian Cronin: Remember when Lin hit the game-winning three against Toronto and everyone was running up to him to celebrate and Melo just stood on the sidelines with his arms crossed?

      I was really hoping that that didn’t mean anything.

      I never knew that and was really hoping that not to be true. Check this video out from some dude at the game that day:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPw4Tem3Ax8

      When Lin is getting mobbed by his teammates going back to the bench for the TV timeout you can see Melo back there smiling and high-fiving people. So… there’s that? Maybe?

      Caleb: Forget 2015-2016; the Knicks can avoid tax then if they want.

      But even not as a repeater, we’re facing a mammoth tax in 2014-2015. And it isn’t easy to dump salary, but the good news is: the tax is so onerous, even just dumping one modest deal can save a lot of money. Like, if we somehow pushed Jason Kidd to a contender and took $3 million off our payroll, it would save more than $12 million in tax that year.

      How about the distinct possibility that in 2015, when Kidd is 42, he will have retired and his contract totally off the books and off the luxury tax ledger? Same goes for the other fogies we’ve picked up. Maybe Grunny has a plan within a plan. Planception?

    200. Tabloid_srce_haha

      tastycakes:
      Melo’s “media filter” is terrible because he’s a man of below average intelligence.

      In other words, some of us don’t like him because he’s an idiot.(And has a crazy overinflated sense of self-worth, but that’s not entirely his fault)

      And JR Smith is doing a great impression of Melo with his mouth. Ironic too ‘cuz Lin actually thanked JR in his EPSY Awards acceptance speech just a few days ago. I guess that’s what you get for being nice.

      With teammates (or ex-teammates?) like these two, who needs enemies?

    201. Frank

      Camby’s deal is nonguaranteed for 2014-15.
      Does anyone know whether Kidd has a guaranteed or nonguaranteed contract in 14-15?

    202. ephus

      Robtachi: How about the distinct possibility that in 2015, when Kidd is 42, he will have retired and his contract totally off the books and off the luxury tax ledger? Same goes for the other fogies we’ve picked up. Maybe Grunny has a plan within a plan. Planception?

      Unfortunately, not even retirement removes guaranteed salary from the salary cap — unless the player retires because of a career-ending injury (in which case the salary is removed on the one-year anniversary of the injury). To the extent that Kidd, Felton and Camby have guaranteed salary in 2014-15, they will stay on the books unless traded.

    203. JK47

      Thomas B.: What are the odds that he slips by 15%-30% and becomes a .100-.125 WS/48 player? I’d say this is more likely than anything.Why would anyone pay a guy 9 million when the most likely thing is that he will be an average nba point?

      But the alternative is to play a guy who will almost CERTAINLY BE WORSE. So let’s go with the 100% chance of mediocre/bad play instead of the 30% chance of All-Star play. This conversation is just insane.

    204. Caleb

      Thomas B.: What are the odds that he slips by 15%-30% and becomes a .100-.125 WS/48 player? I’d say this is more likely than anything.Why would anyone pay a guy 9 million when the most likely thing is that he will be an average nba point?

      Average NBA points make $8-10 million a year – read the Nate Silver column. Or read HoopsHype’s salary pages.

    205. Frank

      ephus: To the extent that Kidd, Felton and Camby have guaranteed salary in 2014-15, they will stay on the books unless traded.

      Camby’s deal is, as I recall, either 2 years guaranteed for $10MM or 3 years 13.2MM where the last year is partially guaranteed.

      I don’t know that we’ve heard anything about team/player options on Kidd/Felton’s deals?

    206. Tabloid_srce_haha

      Thomas B.:
      I really just don’t know what the big deal is about letting him go. We had only 35 games to determine whether this guy is a budding All-Star, or just coming off his Ramon Sessions year.

      I just don’t think Lin is a budding star. I think he got hot for a short amount of time and that has most fans all worked up over what we might lose.I honestly don’t think we are losing that much.I think at best over a full season he will perform as an average NBA point.I think his value comes as a scorer, which is marginalized when playing with Melo, Stat, and Smith all of whom who are high usage players.

      I liked Lin a lot at 750k. For that price I could overlook the way Deron Williams ate him alive or how the Miami pressure made him look like an undrafted player. 3 years/15million you can do. I am not willing to deal has in on the books for 14.8 million two years from now.If it turns out that this is his Ramon Sessions year, and he struggles to be even average after this, what option do you have to make changes or move that contract?If he gets hurt or he is just average, you ae stuck with that contract. You can not make that sort of financial investment with nothing more than 35 games.

      Let him go.

      This type of argument is why I fled from TKB forum after one poster said something like “Lin only played well against the Mav ‘cos they just got off the plane”.

      Cretinism might just be contagious, you never know.

    207. Thomas B.

      JK47: But the alternative is to play a guy who will almost CERTAINLY BE WORSE.So let’s go with the 100% chance of mediocre/bad play instead of the 30% chance of All-Star play.This conversation is just insane.

      But, Felton could be easier to move than the 14.8 million dollar man. You can free yourself to find some other undrafted point. Points are easy. There are like 20 of them every year. Just find one.

    208. JK47

      Thomas B.: But, Felton could be easier to move than the 14.8 million dollar man.You can free yourself to find some other undrafted point.Points are easy. There are like 20 of them every year. Just find one.

      OH MY GOD. Yes, there are .140+ WS/48 players just falling from the sky, which is why Linsanity happens every single year.

      Look, dude. There were about 50 point guards in last year’s draft. Every one not named Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas sucked.

      Brandon Knight was a lottery pick, #8 overall. He shot .380 and had a .029 WS/48.

      Kemba Walker was the following pick. He sucked. He had a .009 WS/48.

      Jimmer Freddette was the pick after that. He sucked. .012 WS/48.

      Reggie Jackson was the #24 pick. Sucked.

      Norris Cole was #28. Sucked.

      How about the draft before that, the one in which Lin was a member of the draft class?

      You’ve got #1 overall John Wall, career WS/48 of .055.

      Eric Bledsoe, career WS/48 of .011.

      Greivis Vasquez, .053.

      Lin has outplayed every point guard from the last two draft classes except Kyrie Irving, yet you think he’s more likely than not to regress, and that you can just find guards like that under a rock somewhere if you need to. GAAAAAAHHH

    209. Thomas B.

      Tabloid_srce_haha: This type of argument is why I fled from TKB forum after one poster said something like “Lin only played well against the Mav ‘cos they just got off the plane”.

      Cretinism might just be contagious, you never know.

      Seriously? I point out the Session had a break out 2nd year, at about the same age and then failed to get back to that level. I offer that as a cautionary tale and ask how hard it might be to move a contract for an overpaid underperformer. I said that Lin’s greatest asset is his scoring, but that demands that he have the ball a lot. I wondered if that was a good thing when paired with so many other players who also need the ball.

      That makes me a cretin? A person that is: brainless, stupid, child-like, and full of pointless information that makes no sense and appeals only to other cretins.

      I guess if you aren’t bright enough to get what i am saying, I can see how you might consider it stupid or pointless. But I never said Lin did well in the Lakers game because they were tired and Derek Fisher is old and slow. My concern is the makeup of the team, the cost of the player, and the small sample sized available. Those arent the arguments that a cretin makes. Those are the arguments that cretins don’t understand.

    210. Thomas B.

      JK47: OH MY GOD.Yes, there are .140+ WS/48 players just falling from the sky, which is why Linsanity happens every single year.

      Look, dude.There were about 50 point guards in last year’s draft.Every one not named Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas sucked.

      Brandon Knight was a lottery pick, #8 overall.He shot .380 and had a .029 WS/48.

      Kemba Walker was the following pick.He sucked.He had a .009 WS/48.

      Jimmer Freddette was the pick after that.He sucked..012 WS/48.

      Reggie Jackson was the #24 pick.Sucked.

      Norris Cole was #28.Sucked.

      How about the draft before that, the one in which Lin was a member of the draft class?

      You’ve got #1 overall John Wall, career WS/48 of .055.

      Eric Bledsoe, career WS/48 of .011.

      Greivis Vasquez, .053.

      Lin has outplayed every point guard from the last two draft classes except Kyrie Irving, yet you think he’s more likely than not to regress, and that you can just find guards like that under a rock somewhere if you need to.GAAAAAAHHH

      I said you just have to find one each year. You just found two for me. So you not only proved my point, but you double proved my point. I don’t think that .140 WS/48 is going to hold up over a full season. I think it is a fluke based on a very small sample size of work. You go on a sip that kool-aid if you want to. I’m not doing it.

    211. Frank

      Thomas B.: But, Felton could be easier to move than the 14.8 million dollar man.You can free yourself to find some other undrafted point.Points are easy. There are like 20 of them every year. Just find one.

      It’s easy to find average PGs who don’t move the needle one way or the other. To have one fall out of the sky into your lap with 1 billion fans trailing him is not easy at all.

      The more I think about it the more I think it’s completely ludicrous not to match. There are just too many ways to get out of the big balloon payment. It’s not nearly as risky as it appears to be IMHO.

    212. bobneptune

      Caleb: More likely he is the sweetener when we get the Lakers to take Jeremy Lin off our hands in exchange for 40-year-old Steve Nash. We” be throwing in our 2014, 2016 and 2018 draft picks to make it even.

      we don’t have a 2014 pick (to denver for melo) nor our 2016 pick (denver can swap with us if they choose as part of the melo trade).

    213. ABG

      The debate isn’t Felton vs. Lin. Its Felton and Lin vs. Felton. And I like the Felton/Lin tag-team over just Felton.

    214. Degree_Absolute

      So I think the moral of this thread is that not matching Houston’s offer would be outrageously stupid. Agreed? OK, good talk.

    215. steveoh

      ABG:
      The debate isn’t Felton vs. Lin.Its Felton and Lin vs. Felton.And I like the Felton/Lin tag-team over just Felton.

      Yes. Absolutely. Agreed. Also…

      1. The fact that we’re looking at the luxury tax ramifications as chronological (as in, Lin’s contract is last so that’s the one that’s responsible for all this) instead of as a group.

      2. The fact that Lin is a huge asset, both on the court, off the court and as a trade chip, even with that third year.

      3. It doesn’t impact our salary cap situation at all.

      This is a no-brainer, whether or not you prefer Felton over Lin or vice versa. Do this now and figure it out later.

      Unfortunately, when I think of no-brainer, I also think Dolan.

    216. Thomas B.

      Caleb: Average NBA points make $8-10 million a year – read the Nate Silver column. Or read HoopsHype’s salary pages.

      No he is making 5 million for the firt 2 years then 14.8 for next. You can’t average it out over three years to make it sound more reasonable. 14.8 for an average point is way to much for one year. You can’t make that number easier to take by spreading it out. Why stop there, why not average the last year into that as well? Now it’s 6 million a year. Hey that sounds even better.

      I just don’t see why there is so much faith in a game who got hot for 20 of 35 games last season. You don’t think you can find players who can produce big numbers in 20 of 35 games, but not look so amazing over 82 games. You need a larger sample size. Think about it, we are buying three years after watching 35 games.

      I read Silver’s article; there was a part that seems even:

      “Where Lin will fall along this spectrum is anybody’s guess. His prolonged hot streak in February and March was indicative of superstar talent. But this must be weighed against the decline in his performance later in the year, when he was closer to a league-average player — and perhaps the fact that, until his breakout in February, he was somebody whom nobody had bothered to draft or wanted to keep on their roster.”

      Could Lin be the guy on the hot streak in February, yeah maybe. But I think it is more likely that he isn’t. I think we saw the peak and i don’t think we will see that over a long period again. We didnt see it at all against the best teams in the conference. That worries me. Why does that not worry anyone else?

    217. DRed

      <blockquote cite="comment-399395"

      Thomas B.: I said you just have to find one each year.You just found two for me.So you not only proved my point, but you double proved my point. I don’t think that .140 WS/48 is going to hold up over a full season.I think it is a fluke based on a very small sample size of work. You go on a sip that kool-aid if you want to. I’m not doing it.

      Lin was good in college, good in the D-League, and good in the NBA. It is very likely that he will continue to be good. That’s not kool-aid.

    218. ephus

      If the Knicks are going to make a run at Chris Paul, then it will have to be at this trade deadline. They will certainly not have the cap space for Paul this off-season. They also will not be able to sign-and-trade for Paul, because starting in 2013-14 any team that is over the Apron cannot receive a free agent through a sign and trade. Knicks will be over the Apron unless they can include both Amar’e and Chandler in the sign-and-trade.

      The best Knicks’ offer that I can see is Chandler/Lin (?)/Shumpert for Paul. In that scenario, Clippers would have to move DeAndre Jordan because he and Chandler cannot be on the floor together.

      Paul would have to have completely soured on the Clippers by the trade deadline and make it known that he will only extend with the Knicks for that deal to have a chance.

      I hope that this longshot is not motivating the Knicks not to match Lin. First, it is extremely unlikely to occur. Second, adding Lin to the package (if he has a strong first half) makes a deal more likely, not less likely. The Clippers are highly unlikely to be taxpayers, so the $15 million bump in year 3 is not as big a problem for them as New York.

    219. Thomas B.

      Frank: It’s easy to find average PGs who don’t move the needle one way or the other. To have one fall out of the sky into your lap with 1 billion fans trailing him is not easy at all.

      The more I think about it the more I think it’s completely ludicrous not to match.There are just too many ways to get out of the big balloon payment. It’s not nearly as risky as it appears to be IMHO.

      Why would I care about a billion fans? How will 1 billion fans help us other than it All-Star voting? I want a title. And i don’t think we should bank this on a guy who only had one month of standout basketball in his entire laying career.

      I feel like Stephen A. Smith with a better hairline.

    220. DRed

      Thomas, the reason it doesn’t worry me is that signing Lin doesn’t limit us one way or the other. The downside is that Lin sucks. Okay, so if he sucks we’ll replace him with Ray Felton, who will probably also suck, and 20 or so minutes of Jason Kidd, who will probably be good. If that sounds familiar, it’s because that’s what we’re going to do if Lin isn’t here. It’s not like re-signing Lin is going to prevent us from signing someone else good-our choice is Lin or not Lin. There is no upside to not Lin.

    221. ruruland

      Caleb:
      I’d give less than 50-50 odds on Shump being in a Knick uniform October 2013.

      Finally got around to reading Stephen A… Assuming Melo is the source, he comes off as even more of an ass than you’d think.

      Please… GTFO out with this nonsense

    222. Thomas B.

      DRed:
      <blockquote cite=”comment-399395″

      Thomas B.: I said you just have to find one each year.You just found two for me.So you not only proved my point, but you double proved my point. I don’t think that .140 WS/48 is going to hold up over a full season.I think it is a fluke based on a very small sample size of work. You go on a sip that kool-aid if you want to. I’m not doing it.

      Lin was good in college, good in the D-League, and good in the NBA.It is very likely that he will continue to be good.That’s not kool-aid.

      How long has he been good in the NBA? For the 96 pro games under his belt, how many of them have been good?

    223. ABG

      Thomas B.: No he is making 5 million for the firt 2 years then 14.8 for next.You can’t average it out over three years to make it sound more reasonable.14.8 for an average point is way to much for one year.You can’t make that number easier to take by spreading it out.Why stop there, why not average the last year into that as well? Now it’s 6 million a year. Hey that sounds even better.

      Actually, if he performs as an average point guard we get two bargain years and one bad deal year. If you’re going to say that 14.8 is too much for one year for an average point–and you’re going to say we can’t average it–you then have to acknowledge that 5 million is too little for an average point.

      So to the point–why wouldn’t you want a bargain for two years? Couldn’t you then figure out what to do with the contract that was too high after reaping your returns?

    224. Cousyfan

      Thanks for this blog!!!!
      It has totally removed the political scene out of my mind. :-)
      Cheers!

    225. Thomas B.

      DRed:
      Thomas, the reason it doesn’t worry me is that signing Lin doesn’t limit us one way or the other.The downside is that Lin sucks.Okay, so if he sucks we’ll replace him with Ray Felton, who will probably also suck, and 20 or so minutes of Jason Kidd, who will probably be good.If that sounds familiar, it’s because that’s what we’re going to do if Lin isn’t here. It’s not like re-signing Lin is going to prevent us from signing someone else good-our choice is Lin or not Lin.There is no upside to not Lin.

      The upside is that I get to be right for a change.

    226. Caleb

      Thomas B.:
      Why stop there, why not average the last year into that as well? Now it’s 6 million a year. Hey that sounds even better.

      Exactly.

    227. ruruland

      Tabloid_srce_haha: And JR Smith is doing a great impression of Melo with his mouth.Ironic too ‘cuz Lin actually thanked JR in his EPSY Awards acceptance speech just a few days ago.I guess that’s what you get for being nice.

      With teammates (or ex-teammates?) like these two, who needs enemies?

      Not to parrot Isola, well I guess this post deserves an Isola response — Lin, the guy who accepted his awards at the ESPY’s but refused to help in the playoffs because he wasn’t 100 percent???

    228. Thomas B.

      jon abbey: root for a different team, we’re not winning a title with or without Lin.

      Ha. Fair point. You know I forgot about that. Okay, I’m on board now. Match the offer.
      Thank you for snapping me back into my senses. I almost forgot this is the Knicks I’m talking about.

    229. ruruland

      jon abbey: root for a different team, we’re not winning a title with or without Lin.

      With Lin the Knicks upside is title. Dallas wasn’t supposed to have any chance at chip, Knicks are more talented with Lin than that team — roughly as talented without him.

      Grunwald is being put into am extremely difficult spot of making a trade for the get-over-piece without significantly depleting what’s on the roster.

      We’ll be pushing he and Warkentein’s creative limits….

    230. Gamecockerbocker

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Again, I can’t tell you how excited I’d be if our team were Ty Lawson, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, DeJuan Blair, Jerome Jordan, Jae Crowder, Marcus Denmon, and like, anyone efficient with the $40M in cap space we’d have after those players. I don’t see a problem with this. I mean, Landry Fields had his image on a billboard at MSG. When are owners going to realize that big-name superstars don’t sell tickets nearly as well as wins do?

      The problem is the Knicks aren’t most teams and they don’t have a normal owner. MSG will sell out no matter how shitty the roster is and Dolan will make money off Knicks fans whether they have that lineup you wish for or a lineup of 40 year old washed up stars dragging their corpses up and down the court in 3 or four years. It’s a sick, sick problem.

    231. Thomas B.

      ABG: Actually, if he performs as an average point guard we get two bargain years and one bad deal year.If you’re going to say that 14.8 is too much for one year for an average point–and you’re going to say we can’t average it–you then have to acknowledge that 5 million is too little for an average point.

      So to the point–why wouldn’t you want a bargain for two years?Couldn’t you then figure out what to do with the contract that was too high after reaping your returns?

      I dont know. It just sounds so much like buying a house with no money down on a 2 year ARM. A house that you’ve only had 4 minutes to inspect. “Wow that kitchen looked great. I’m sure the stove works.” Everything is fine until that ballon payment hits and your thinking “Dear Lord, what have I done.” Then the next thing you know, you are sitting in court sipping hemlock.

    232. ruruland

      tastycakes:
      Melo’s “media filter” is terrible because he’s a man of below average intelligence.

      In other words, some of us don’t like him because he’s an idiot.

      Explain

    233. Degree_Absolute

      Thomas B.: Why does that not worry anyone else?

      1) It is not our money and in the past Dolan has spent similarly on worse players and worse deals. For two years he is arguably underpaid and we only have to deal with (possibly) one bad contract year. This is not Vin Baker, Glen Rice, Luc Longley, Jerome James, etc. This is a short contract for a player with significant upside.
      2) If we don’t sign him, we look stupid AND we get nothing back AND are still hamstrung by luxury tax. Most Knicks fan would rather have tradeable player with potential than absolutely nothing.
      3) He is refreshingly likable and says all the right things compared to his more established idiot teammates (JR, Melo, STAT).
      4) Linsanity was the best 8 game stretch in at least the last decade for this godforsaken franchise. I can’t and won’t let that go.

    234. JC Knickfan

      Thomas B.: But, Felton could be easier to move than the 14.8 million dollar man.You can free yourself to find some other undrafted point.Points are easy. There are like 20 of them every year. Just find one.

      This thinking why Knicks have no draft picks. Last year Felton TS% 0.491 and PER 13.46 ranks in low 40’s forces. You saying “who care if he play actually play worst”? To trade him Knicks have to give picks and pay his salary.

      Lin at least temporary adds Global marketing and increase tickets. Serious there nothing stop Knicks trading him Jan 15. I see no reason he can’t post similar number that he did under Woodson – they not all-star numbers. He still posted TS% 0.59. Given dearth of PG Lin MPG will drop and protect against injuries. GM will still see potential marketing gold mine and scoring option. Knicks actually get some draft pick in return and trade exception in salary dump. Plus Dolan really pissed maybe he ask Glen try trade him to team Lin doesn’t want play for.

    235. Frank

      Thomas B.: I dont know.It just sounds so much like buying a house with no money down on a 2 year ARM.A house that you’ve only had 4 minutes to inspect.“Wow that kitchen looked great. I’m sure the stove works.”Everything is fine until that ballon payment hits and your thinking “Dear Lord, what have I done.”Then the next thing you know, you are sitting in court sipping hemlock.

      That’s all true, but tell me, do we have a better sample size on Lin than the Cavs had on Kyrie Irving (3 games at Duke)? Or any team has on any one-and-done college player? Or since you asked about how many pro games we’ve seen, any draft pick at all, ever?

      We have 35 REAL PRO games (25 starts) during which he played better than ANY point guard in the league not named Chris Paul:

      From @ESPN: in 25 games as a starter, Lin scored 455 pts & had 192 assists. Only CP3 (548 points 226 assists) matched Lin over that span.

      Yet we all sit here and hem and haw and moan about how sure we are about college draftees when we draft or don’t draft them. We have zero idea of how most of these college guys will do. We’ve ALREADY SEEN Lin. And all it takes is money. We don’t have to trade Gerald Wallace for the promise of a draft pick.

      Obviously it’s easy for me to say that Dolan should just spend the money – it’s not my money. But it just feels like this is NOT a money decision – they were fully prepared to match a deal with just $5MM more in guaranteed 14-15 money. Could it be that that $ was what broke the camel’s back? I sort of doubt it, especially when there are SO MANY ways to get out of it (trade it, stretch provision it, etc.) even if he doesn’t pan out. If he ends up being really good, it’ll be worth it.

    236. Thomas B.

      Degree_Absolute: 1) It is not our money and in the past Dolan has spent similarly on worse players and worse deals.For two years he is arguably underpaid and we only have to deal with (possibly) one bad contract year.This is not Vin Baker, Glen Rice, Luc Longley, Jerome James, etc.This is a short contract for a player with significant upside.

      Oh just give it time. It will be.

      Don’t you people know by now that whenever Houston gets involved with anything we do, we get the shaft.

      They screwed us in the deal to move Jeffries.
      The Shandon Anderson era was a nightmare.
      I’m just waiting for Camby’s shoe to drop.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Knicks-Rockets-backroom-trade-negotiat?urn=nba,219962

    237. Frank

      Degree_Absolute: 1) It is not our money and in the past Dolan has spent similarly on worse players and worse deals. For two years he is arguably underpaid and we only have to deal with (possibly) one bad contract year. This is not Vin Baker, Glen Rice, Luc Longley, Jerome James, etc. This is a short contract for a player with significant upside.

      Even though I want us to match Lin, this is not a useful argument. Baker, Rice, etc. were in the old CBA, in a booming economy, etc. The financial realities of this CBA and of the national/world economy in general are totally different now. Forbes has the Dolans’ net worth at 2.6 billion, but HoopsHype has James Dolan’s net worth at “only” $494 million. So one can imagine that if the Knicks become unprofitable because of the Lin contract puts them over the top, then that is a legitimate reason to not match it.

      I don’t think that’s the case, but if it is, then it is forgivable. But I’d STILL say that there are ways out of it when the time comes (trade/waive-stretch).

    238. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I would love for Walker to come back, but only if he learned to shoot, pass, dribble, rebound and play defense better.

      Leave Bill Walker Alone! His career TS% is .597 and his rebound rate is okay for a 2. As for his dribbling, passing and defense- they’re perfectly adequate for a 15th man (which is hopefully what he’d be).

    239. Thomas B.

      Frank: That’s all true, but tell me, do we have a better sample size on Lin than the Cavs had on Kyrie Irving (3 games at Duke)? Or any team has on any one-and-done college player? Or since you asked about how many pro games we’ve seen, any draft pick at all, ever?

      Yeah but Irving showed more in his college play that Lin did. Besides the draft is a bit different. You can look at the player for up to 4 years before they are RFAs. With Lin we only got 35 games. But I’ve switched to the keep him camp since it wont have any impact on whether we win a title. We won’t win one.

      The title window is just painted on the brick wall ala a Looney-Tunes short. Hell give Lin 30 million a year. Who cares. It won’t matter.

    240. Frank O.

      they’re going to sign him.
      Even if you don’t like him in year three he has value as an expiring.

      This is all manipulative build up to the Knicks matching. Take it to the bank.
      The Knicks overpaid for Melo and for Stat. One could reasonably argue that those contracts are just as responsible for the luxury tax problems as Lin’s potential contract.

      Personally, I think a Lin-Shump backcourt in three years is scary as hell to a lot of teams.

    241. Frank

      so btw- there was a thought going around Twitter? Here? that one of the reasons for the Felton move was to stick it to the Rockets by removing one of the last viable PGs on the market. Now there are zero viable PGs on the market as Aaron Brooks just signed with Sacramento, to join their PG circus (Jimmer? Tyreke? Isaiah Thomas? Brooks?). There are literally ZERO PGs left on the FA market other than the Derek Fishers of the world.

      So if that was the point, I love it. Probably wasn’t though.

    242. Thomas B.

      Frank,

      To be fair he played really well in 9 of 35 games, awful in about 13 games, and good to average in 13 games. It just worked out that the 9 games were really really good.

    243. The Raging Platypus

      Holy crap, this whole Linsanity mess has turned Thomas B. into a nihilist! Somebody save him, quick! =)

    244. Frank

      someone go tell Dolan that he can get revenge on Morey by signing both Felton and Lin, leaving Morey to play Derek Fisher at the point. Is half-revenge enough?

    245. ess-dog

      Pretty crappy 4 year college stats, although it looks like he can step out and hit a 3 or two…

    246. ABG

      Thomas B.: I dont know.It just sounds so much like buying a house with no money down on a 2 year ARM.A house that you’ve only had 4 minutes to inspect.“Wow that kitchen looked great. I’m sure the stove works.”Everything is fine until that ballon payment hits and your thinking “Dear Lord, what have I done.”Then the next thing you know, you are sitting in court sipping hemlock.

      Potayto potahto. It just comes down to be willing to accept some moderate risk and having enough faith in your ability to find an out if needed.

    247. TheRant

      Frank: someone go tell Dolan that he can get revenge on Morey by signing both Felton and Lin, leaving Morey to play Derek Fisher at the point. Is half-revenge enough?

      Yeah, except that Morey has our next forty-three draft picks. So he may get the last laugh yet.

    248. Degree_Absolute

      Frank: this is not a useful argument.

      Sure it is. This entire offseason is shit if we do not match Lin. Dolan been fiscally irresponsible for years giving shitty players even shittier contracts for no apparent reason. For the Knicks to preach fiscal responsibility now is, best case, the height of hypocrisy, worst case, an outright lie. Case in point, how is signing two 40 year olds (one of whom has a penchant for drunkenly crashing into his wife and abusing telephone poles… or something) to three year deals fiscally responsible? Simply put, it is not. This organization, after the last decade and a half, has no right – NO RIGHT to preach to anyone about fiscally responsibility.

    249. JC Knickfan

      I posted before there possibility that J-Lin was not this good during rookie year season and really work his game last summer.

      In his rookie year 20 D-league games Lin posted:
      18 ppg, 4.3 apg 5.8 ppg.

      So 2nd year – Yes I know it only 1 d-league game, but can you really be lucky post a triple double.
      In 1 game goes 28 ppg on 9-17, 10-11 FT, 11 Reb and 12 Assists.

      Of course he goes into Linisanity little bit thereafter. Plus Kenny Atkinson say he always first one in and last one leave practice. Plus read he his one leg squat from 110 lb to 225 lb. Isn’t this kind player you want resign?
      He has flaws in game. J.Lin need work on his handle, left hand drive and 3pt shooter. But seriously, we not asking to solve cold fusion. Would anyone be surprised if improves this next season?

      Honestly Flip Murray is only player I can think of that initial success, but couldn’t repeat it. Heck he still had a 8 year NBA career.

    250. Caleb

      Frank:
      so btw- there was a thought going around Twitter? Here? that one of the reasons for the Felton move was to stick it to the Rockets by removing one of the last viable PGs on the market.Now there are zero viable PGs on the market as Aaron Brooks just signed with Sacramento, to join their PG circus (Jimmer? Tyreke? Isaiah Thomas? Brooks?). There are literally ZERO PGs left on the FA market other than the Derek Fishers of the world.

      So if that was the point, I love it.Probably wasn’t though.

      That’s actually pretty funny. It would be a nice move, if it were true. Now we can trade him to the Rocks for Jerome Jordan and Josh Harrelson.

    251. Gamecockerbocker

      From the five on five at ESPN, if the Knicks should match Lin’s offer… Ummm What cap space is Abott talking about in regards to this quote: “The only reason not to would be if they have a plan to bring in a real game-changer with that cap space, which they might.” My understanding is that even if the Knicks DON’T match, they still have no cap space. Is that understanding wrong?

      Abbott: It doesn’t matter all that much. The Knicks like to act like they’re making these league-changing decisions all the time, but they’re perennially mediocre regardless. Maybe it’s not rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, but it’s rearranging the deck chairs on some mediocre, overpriced cruise. The only reason not to would be if they have a plan to bring in a real game-changer with that cap space, which they might. But so long as we’re talking about a team dominated by Carmelo isolations, it doesn’t matter all that much which four players are watching.

    252. PrecociousNeophyte

      A couple years ago there were whispers and reports that Jacoby Ellsbury was nursing an injury and he wasn’t committed to the team. He was just looking out for himself so they said and his teammates were not happy. Many fans, as they typically do, ate this stuff up and wanted him traded.

      Of course, he got healthy and came back the next season as arguably the best player in the American League.

      Keep this in mind before you start buying into the rhetoric about “85%” or Lin turned heads in the locker room.

    253. RicanKnick

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sarah Palin was the candidate for Vice President of the United States of America. Do you think she was qualified for that position?

      If you don’t think Melo and Chandler belong to the Dream Team…you don’t know shit about basketball…

    254. ephus

      So, Ray Felton and Kurt Thomas are officially back with the Knicks.

      Jared Jeffries got $3.1 million guaranteed as a reward for his valiant performance last year. Vaya con Dios!

      I do not view the trade of Papanikolou and Prientzis as particularly harmful, because the Knicks were not going to have the salary cap room to make an attractive offer for the next few years. I doubt that either would come over for the rookie minimum. Knicks could have offered the mini-MLE next season, but with major tax consequences.

      I have no idea whether the Knicks will match on Lin. I think that they should, but understand if the team is finally going to exercise fiscal discipline.

      If Lin is brought back, the press may treat it like a game of musical chairs, expecting that one of the four major contracts will get moved before the trade deadline in 2014-15.

      Do you think it may be dawning on JR Smith that the Knicks will have to pay a fortune in luxury tax to use their Early Bird rights to bring him up to the MLE next off-season? Bringing back Lin would bump the tax rate for Smith up to 375% next year and 475% in 2014-15. Keep that in mind when reading quotes from JR Smith about Lin.

      Somehow, Jason Kidd was coherent/well-trained enough not to agree to the BAC test. Because of that refusal he will face the loss of his license for up to 1 year, but it is now extremely unlikely that he could be convicted of aggravated DUI (which carries a mandatory 1 year license suspension).

    255. exel

      I think a few people here are viewing the matching Lin’s offer in the wrong perspective. It’s not Felton or Lin. It’s Lin or D-League/Vet Min player. Knicks are over the salary cap and have few assets left to sign and trade. To fill out the roster, it’s either match Lin’s offer or let him go and scour the bottom of the talent barrel for players and hope that lightening strikes a third time and we luck out with another Lin or Novak type find.

      I’m not a MSG shareholder or MSG employee, so the luxury tax implications of Lin’s offer don’t really impact my decision on whether we keep them or not. But as a Knick’s fan, I rather have Lin on the team as opposed to some random D-League/vet min player.

    256. arthurprescott2

      Frank:
      so btw- there was a thought going around Twitter? Here? that one of the reasons for the Felton move was to stick it to the Rockets by removing one of the last viable PGs on the market.Now there are zero viable PGs on the market as Aaron Brooks just signed with Sacramento, to join their PG circus (Jimmer? Tyreke? Isaiah Thomas? Brooks?). There are literally ZERO PGs left on the FA market other than the Derek Fishers of the world.

      So if that was the point, I love it.Probably wasn’t thoughh

      Yes, this is the first thing that occurred to me when I heard the Knicks traded for Felton (because I couldn’t think of any other half-decent PGs still available). Sounds like a savvy Grunwald move, sticking it to Houston. That said, Dolan might dig in his heels out of spite.

    257. arthurprescott2

      @290
      Think Abbot was just perpetuating the CP3 rumors. He did it again in his “Lin played well” piece on TrueHoop.

    258. Spree8nyk8

      Kidd running into a cablevision pole is kind of like Dolans money crashing into his money.

    259. Brian Cronin

      Now that the deal is official and there’s no way for Felton to back out, do you think we’ll begin to hear something more definitive on Lin?

    260. ephus

      Brian Cronin:
      Now that the deal is official and there’s no way for Felton to back out, do you think we’ll begin to hear something more definitive on Lin?

      I think the Knicks will milk this every moment possible. I am not certain to what purpose, but it seems to be the SOP.

    261. Brian Cronin

      You really have to give Hahn credit for making such a strong argument on his MSG blog that the Knicks should match Lin. I am pleased that MSG allows him the freedom to voice his opinion, even if it conflicts with MSG’s stance on things.

    262. Brian Cronin

      Cute bit from Katie Baker about the Knicks over at Grantland:

      Several hours into a wedding this weekend, I glanced at my phone to see the name “Kurt Thomas” all up in my Twitter feed. We’re still making these jokes? I thought. The Camby signing was days ago! Alas, I’d forgotten one of the rules of thumb of being a Knicks fan: If it sounds like a punch line, it’s probably true. And so a day of cartoonish courier dodging ended in controversy: The Knicks, everyone’s sources started to say, would not be re-signing Jeremy Lin. Here’s the weird thing, though: I’m not even mad. Bewildered? Yes. SMH? Sure. Occasionally bursting into peals of maniacal laughter? Every few minutes. But for whatever reason, this is just (bad) business as usual to me. These are the Knicks. These are my Knicks, the same team I’ve known and loved and absolutely despised for pretty much my whole life — the epic dysfunction, the “Garden Kremlinologists,” the fact that a pal of mine can write a reasonable, measured take on the team’s offseason and then have the entire thing rendered obscenely obsolete within hours. I wouldn’t even begin to judge anyone for whom this is the last straw; anyone who says “fuck this noise” and buys one of these kick-ass tees and never looks back, except perhaps in disgust. Vaya con dios, in this case dios being Jay-Z. But there’s no way I could do it myself. It’s barely even crossed my mind. Maybe it’s Stockholm Syndrome, or maybe it’s just that I’m no longer living in Brooklyn, where the walking distance to the Barclays Center would be tantalizingly short and the lure intoxicatingly strong. Maybe I’m stubborn, or stupid, or both. But I’m sticking around. I’m going down with the ship, playing “Go New York, Go New York, Go” on a waterlogged and out-of-tune violin. I may be a bitter old biddy by the time the Knicks finally win a post-‘70s title; more likely, I’ll be dead. But I just truly don’t think I could ever imagine it any other way.

    263. 2FOR18

      JK47:
      In a vacuum, I could deal with Jeremy Lin leaving.Perhaps he doesn’t become a star, and ends up becoming way overpaid.

      But what’s really upsetting everybody is that this team is basically just flushing the next three years down the toilet.They will not even have the chance that Lin will break out and become a star.Instead his position is being manned by a guy entering his age 39 season and another guy who has been substantially below average over his 8-year career.

      The Knicks are an absolute LOCK to get below-average performance out of the PG position.Another thing that is an absolute lock is that the Knicks will not, over the next three years, get another opportunity to add a talent like Lin.

      What happens in 2013-2014 when Kidd is in his age 40 season?Then the following year when he’s 41?I’ll tell you what happens– the Knicks will once again be scrambling to find even a replacement level PG, just like they did this year.

      Some of us around here can see the writing on the wall– the ceiling for this team for the next three years is mediocrity.The floor is fiery train wreck.After so many years of shitty basketball, some of us aren’t prepared for another three years of that.Some of us have had our optimism completely exhausted.

      If a miracle happens and Lin returns, I’ll suspend my disbelief and give this team another shot.If not, I’m done.I don’t want to watch three seasons of a mediocre team playing out the string until their bad contracts expire.It’s not fun anymore.

      I’ll tell you what will happen next summer, or the summer after. The Knicks will trade Shump plus cash plus draft picks for Jarett Jack, and it will be the calm and cool Jon Abbey who will be going ape shit on here.

    264. Degree_Absolute

      Brian Cronin:
      You really have to give Hahn credit for making such a strong argument on his MSG blog that the Knicks should match Lin. I am pleased that MSG allows him the freedom to voice his opinion, even if it conflicts with MSG’s stance on things.

      I dunno, he takes some requisite shots at Lin:

      “Lin’s camp is already putting out word through media outlets that he would like to stay in New York, which is sounding somewhat disingenuous in the wake of this offer sheet strategy.”

      …………

      “What we can only assume is he would be equally happy to remain a Knick.

      What you’d rather confirm is that he’d prefer to be a Knick.”

      Does he actually believe this naive, homer bullshit? Slightly sickening.

      I don’t recall Hahn accusing Carmelo of being disingenuous when he forced a trade because he wanted NY and he wanted the most guaranteed money possible. When Lin does the something similar (but less damaging) somehow it is a disingenuous betrayal of Knicks fans and Knicks management?

    265. 2FOR18

      Z: See, now this is what I’ll miss. I like this community and the people (ie screennames) I’ve gotten to know here over the years. In fact, I like this site a lot more than the subject we all discuss here. If only we could talk about something besides the NBA :) (like billiards!)

      Well The Hustler was on the other night on channel 13.

      Did you see the womens 9 ball championships over the weekend?

    266. bobneptune

      I see hassan whiteside was waived by sacratomato. I’d pick him up for the minimum if I had a chance. He tore a patellar tendon a year ago and if he can walk, he’s only 23 I’d take shots all day with cheap athletic freaks like this guy.

    267. 2FOR18

      JC Knickfan:
      If Lin is not match, Felton trade will be forever tied to Lin.Also we gave up Jeffries who 10 year younger then Thomas who did like first time already. But Knicks are really taking getting veteran to new level. Has there every been this many 40 years player one team?

      I’m sure Rocket will continue make moves before start, but Lin probably feature scorer.With the Knicks luck he going put up monster numbers and this will be listed one worst deal every.

      At start of NBA season
      Kurt Thomas will be 40
      Raymond Felton will be 28

      Jeremy Lin will be 24
      Jared Jeffries will be 30
      Unknown Kostas Papanikolaou and Georgios Prentezis

      For good measure, the suddenly fiscally conservative Dolan is paying 1.3 million of Jeffries’ salary next season.
      These other teams must laugh their butts off after they get off the phone with the Knicks.

    268. Z

      2FOR18: For good measure, the suddenly fiscally conservative Dolan is paying 1.3 million of Jeffries’ salary next season…

      Isn’t Dolan already paying Toney Douglas salary for the Rockets? Is Douglas + Jeffries less than $3 mil (the max he can pay other teams to show him their tits?)

    269. ephus

      Degree_Absolute: I dunno, he takes some requisite shots at Lin:

      “Lin’s camp is already putting out word through media outlets that he would like to stay in New York, which is sounding somewhat disingenuous in the wake of this offer sheet strategy.”

      …………

      “What we can only assume is he would be equally happy to remain a Knick.

      What you’d rather confirm is that he’d prefer to be a Knick.”

      Does he actually believe this naive, homer bullshit?Slightly sickening.

      Since we are talking about the organization that ditched Marv Albert after 30 years for his unvarnished views, I look at these quotes as the sugar that Hahn needs to dole out along with his view that Lin should be brought back.

      I also have no problem with Lin preferring to be a Rocket at 3 years/$25 million to being a Knick at 4 years/$24 million (not that the Knicks ever put forward that offer). I am heartened that Lin would be happy to return to New York. Of course, the Hornets matched on Eric Gordon despite his protests that he strongly preferred Phoenix.

    270. Z

      2FOR18: Well The Hustler was on the other night on channel 13.

      Did you see the womens 9 ball championships over the weekend?

      :)

      There was a guy that got banned here back in the Isiah years for drawing too many parallels to billiards (or was it horse racing?)

    271. ephus

      Z: Isn’t Dolan already paying Toney Douglas salary for the Rockets? Is Douglas + Jeffries less than $3 mil

      Dolan can pay $3.1 million in cash this year. Douglas was just under $2.1 million. Dolan is paying just over $1 million towards Jeffries salary.

    272. bobneptune

      ruruland: Not to parrot Isola, well I guess this post deserves an Isola response — Lin, the guy who accepted his awards at the ESPY’s but refused to help in the playoffs because he wasn’t 100 percent???

      So the guy making the minimum is supposed to risk his career and play on a knee that wasn’t ready? In his walk year? for what…. to maybe get beat by 6 instead of 16?

    273. JC Knickfan

      I presume Morey hope Chicago match Asik, then hope he get howard.

      2FOR18: For good measure, the suddenly fiscally conservative Dolan is paying 1.3 million of Jeffries’ salary next season.
      These other teams must laugh their butts off after they get off the phone with the Knicks.

      I forgot there a protected future second-round draft pick include also for Felton who rank around 45th in PER.

    274. DRed

      Z: :)

      There was a guy that got banned here back in the Isiah years for drawing too many parallels to billiards (or was it horse racing?)

      The Itallian Stallion? He never shut up about how he was a handicaper. I wonder where he is now?

    275. Shad0wF0x

      @311

      I never understood what the complaint was about. If I was Lin I would have done the exact same thing and sat out.

    276. yehudi3000

      All those sources doesn’t say anything to me…
      It’s all up to Grunwuld and Dolan to decide, and they will keep it secret untill tomarow night.

      I love lin, but u got the blame him for some of the mess.

    277. thenamestsam

      Shad0wF0x:
      @311

      I never understood what the complaint was about. If I was Lin I would have done the exact same thing and sat out.

      Not only that, but anyone reading his comments as admitting that he could have played is making some huge assumptions. Lin’s exact quote was “When I worked out, I was probably going 80-85 percent and I just figured in a week I might be 100 percent”. Somehow that has gotten twisted around to mean that he felt he could have played at 85% effectiveness when actually what he said was that he was going about 85% speed in workouts. That doesn’t translate to playing at anywhere near 85% in a game environment.

      He also added: “I tried to take off, tried to plant, just go full speed at 100 percent. It didn’t feel right. I felt pain when I tried to take off.” If you think that a guy who felt pain in his recently surgically repaired knee when he tried to jump in warmups is ready to play in an NBA game you’re out of your mind.

    278. JC Knickfan

      I grew up in upstate NY and follow cuse b-ball. Of course player graduate and follow up how they do in NBA or other leagues. Of course Melo was on winning 2003 team alone with Craig Forth, Hakim Warrick, Josh Pace and Gerry McNamara. So being cuse fan always want see Melo succeed. After hinting that he might not have given his fullest while playing for MDA and now commenting about Lin contract situation, He really on my shit now. This up and coming season going hard to watch.

    279. 2FOR18

      ephus: Dolan can pay $3.1 million in cash this year.Douglas was just under $2.1 million.Dolan is paying just over $1 million towards Jeffries salary.

      So due to the league picking up part of Jeffries’ salary last year due to the vet minimum thing, that means Dolan is actually paying more for Jeffries next season than last season, right?

    280. ephus

      2FOR18: So due to the league picking up part of Jeffries’ salary last year due to the vet minimum thing, that means Dolan is actually paying more for Jeffries next season than last season, right?

      Isn’t it ironic?

    281. 2FOR18

      DRed: The Itallian Stallion?He never shut up about how he was a handicaper.I wonder where he is now?

      Oh one of those. I’ve known many in “real life”, and they tend to disappear once they go broke.

    282. 2FOR18

      We might as well go all in and sign Anthony Randolph and the soon to be amnestied Andray Blatche. Just to see if we can become even dumber and more offensive than the Truck Party team.

    283. Frank O.

      If you all think Hahn isn’t part of MSG’s communication strategy you have no idea how companies work. Hahn is no longer independent. His comments probably mirror what the company wants to say.
      If anything he is like the official news channel for an autocratic gov’t, IMHO. You read m to gain insight into the company’s thinking.
      I believe that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sign him, AND they are feeling a bit dissed by him.
      But they will sign him. I find it hard to believe that Hahn as an insider isn’t tied into the team’s marketing and communications plan.

    284. DRed

      Frank O.:
      If you all think Hahn isn’t part of MSG’s communication strategy you have no idea how companies work. Hahn is no longer independent. His comments probably mirror what the company wants to say.
      If anything he is like the official news channel for an autocratic gov’t, IMHO. You read m to gain insight into the company’s thinking.
      I believe that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sign him, AND they are feeling a bit dissed by him.
      But they will sign him. I find it hard to believe that Hahn as an insider isn’t tied into the team’s marketing and communications plan.

      He’s about as independent as a reporter for Pravda.

    285. ephus

      So you read Peter Vecsey (now on twitter) to find out what Donnie Walsh thinks.

      You read Stephen A. Smith to learn what CAA collectively thinks (or at least wants you to think).

      Bob Ryan used to give insight into what Red Auerbach wanted to spread.

      Any other current links between writers and sources?

    286. thenamestsam

      ephus:
      So you read Peter Vecsey (now on twitter) to find out what Donnie Walsh thinks.

      You read Stephen A. Smith to learn what CAA collectively thinks (or at least wants you to think).

      Bob Ryan used to give insight into what Red Auerbach wanted to spread.

      Any other current links between writers and sources?

      If you want to go baseball it’s pretty widely known that Heyman has the same kind of relationship with Scott Boras.

    287. jon abbey

      not sure I buy the Hahn/MSG thing, Jack Curry has managed to stay pretty independent while working for YES.

    288. flossy

      You read Isola to find out what the bitter alcoholic who lives in Penn Station thinks.

    289. Shad0wF0x

      They just mentioned in USA vs. Brazil that the coach can’t call a timeout unless if play stops. I kinda want that rule installed into the NBA. More basketball, less commercials.

    290. Brian Cronin

      not sure I buy the Hahn/MSG thing, Jack Curry has managed to stay pretty independent while working for YES.

      That’s what I tend to think, as well. Hopefully I’m wrong!

    291. daJudge

      Did Lin approach or encourage Houston after the initial offer? Is this true. If it is, I can understand the negative reaction to some extent—maybe even from the players. I just need some clarification on this issue if anyone really knows the answer. I still would like them to match, because I don’t care at all what the owner pays unless it impacts other relevant basketball opportunities for the Knicks. I don’t see that right off. Assuming his signing doesn’t hamper the team going forward , like with CP3, I don’t see the downside. Sure, it’s a shitty contract in a vacuum, but a net positive, profit wise (which is irrelevant to me) and clearly talent wise. I guess I would just rather have Lin starting. My biggest issue at this point is the team’s overall reaction—not positive. It’s funny, I think if they spoke with Stat, he’d at least say the right things. I think this issue is much more complex than it appears from a group dynamics level. Don’t you think if Melo was really committed to just winning, he would want this dude back? I’ve only played rec ball for maybe 50 years, but Jesus, Jeremy Lin or Raymond Felton—really? Melo’s concerned about the contract? This seems very hypocritical to me. Sorry for the ramble.

    292. arthurprescott2

      Is anyone watching the USA v. Brazil game? Chandler making his presence known! I love it.

    293. StatsTeacher

      I do believe Lin took much of the spotlight and Melo had a very tough time with that.

      IMHO what we have seen since Woodson took over is somewhat discriminatory behavior vs. young players. He has stated that in public, and it was pointed out on this board many times that preconceived (read: prejudicial) opinions of players prevent proper data analysis. Woodson confirms it, even MDA had to be essentially forced to play Lin.

      Melo has spewed a lot of BS but as (I believe) Brian pointed out, don’t parse it, they are Dead Sea Scrolls. That being said, the Knicks player/front office/coach dynamic is the most dysfunctional I have ever seen.

      daJudge:
      Did Lin approach or encourage Houston after the initial offer?Is this true.If it is, I can understand the negative reaction to some extent—maybeeven from the players.I just need some clarification on this issue if anyone really knows the answer. I still would like them to match, because I don’t care at all what the owner pays unless it impacts other relevant basketball opportunities for the Knicks.I don’t see that right off.Assuming his signing doesn’t hamper the team going forward , like with CP3, I don’t see the downside. Sure, it’s a shitty contract in a vacuum, but a net positive, profit wise (which is irrelevant to me) and clearly talent wise.I guess I wouldjust rather have Lin starting.My biggest issue at this point is the team’s overall reaction—not positive.It’s funny, I think if they spoke with Stat, he’d at least say the right things.I think this issue is much more complex than it appears from a group dynamics level.Don’t you think if Melo was reallycommitted to just winning, he would want this dude back? I’ve only played rec ball for maybe 50 years, but Jesus, Jeremy Lin or Raymond Felton—really?Melo’s concerned about the contract? This seems very hypocritical to me.Sorry for the ramble.

    294. PrecociousNeophyte

      The fact that we believe it’s reasonably likely the reason behind letting Lin go is that he “crossed” Dolan or CAA is behind it makes me lose any hope of Hahn maintaining independence.

    295. Frank O.

      jon abbey: Lin obviously had a big impact during Linsanity, but I don’t buy that he’s had much to do with the subsequent rise since then, or today’s fall. a six month chart:

      http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=MSG+Interactive#symbol=msg;range=6m;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

      Right. What’s happening now is debatable as a matter of opinion. But what happened in February is matter of fact. I’m only suggesting that lin’s impact on the team goes beyond his salary. To view it so myopically is idiocy…which is not beneath Dolan. I just have to believe his business people can see beyond the luxury tax.

    296. flossy

      Imagine Carmelo Anthony called up Dolan and said:

      “Hey Jimmy, look, I know this contract negotiation got weird, but Jeremy Lin is a really talented young player and someone I think can be a major piece of a team that will contend for a championship for the next several years. He’s someone I want on my side as we go for this ring. I know he’s expensive but it will be worth it.”

      Would we be having this conversation right now? Of course not, Dolan would have matched without blinking, that’s how in thrall he is to Melo. Luxury tax is nothing to him; he’s shown time and again he’ll sign blank checks when people he trusts/admires tell him Player X = wins (regardless of how wrong they might be).

      Instead we appear to be on the brink of letting the most valuable asset and luckiest break the Knicks have had in years (decades?) just walk right out the door for nothing. Meanwhile Melo and JR Smith mouth off about the “ridiculousness” of the offer sheet and CAA mouthpiece Steven A. Smith revs up into full-on Jeremy Lin character assassination mode.

      Do any of you really think this was done without the consent, if not outright encouragement, of Melo? And does nobody else find it a bit discomforting that not six months after forcing a coach out the door (by phoning it in while the team lost–and this by his own admission), that our captain appears to be doing his part to make sure that nobody on the roster will rival him for popularity, wins be damned?

    297. jon abbey

      Frank O.: Right. What’s happening now is debatable as a matter of opinion. But what happened in February is matter of fact. I’m only suggesting that lin’s impact on the team goes beyond his salary. To view it so myopically is idiocy…which is not beneath Dolan. I just have to believe his business people can see beyond the luxury tax.

      but I think you’re misreading it. Lin’s impact in February is not in question, what’s in question is whether he can have anything like that kind of financial impact going forward. for instance, there have been a bunch of quotes from Modell’s people that they have 40,000 of his shirts still in stock that they already marked way down before this, and they still weren’t moving.

    298. jon abbey

      flossy:
      Do any of you really think this was done without the consent, if not outright encouragement, of Melo?And does nobody else find it a bit discomforting that not six months after forcing a coach out the door (by phoning it in while the team lost–and this by his own admission), that our captain appears to be doing his part to make sure that nobody on the roster will rival him for popularity, wins be damned?

      or he’s clearing the way for Chris Paul.

    299. Caleb

      You know I’m still deeply pessimistic, but I will say… if you were running the Knicks, and your new rival in Brooklyn had just spent two weeks in the headlines, re-signing their superstar PG, bringing in new players and angling for Dwight Howard… what would be the best way to ensure that your team was the center of attention.

      I’m just sayin’.

    300. Brian Cronin

      or he’s clearing the way for Chris Paul.

      But matching on Lin helps you get Chris Paul, as a trade would be the only way the Knicks could acquire Paul and Lin would certainly have to be involved in said trade.

    301. rohank

      Watching Team USA. Melo missed the dunk and was complaining about the call. In the distance, you could hear someone yell “GET BACK ON DEFENSE!”

      LOL

    302. Brian Cronin

      Also Melo’s words were a bit distorted. First thing he said was “I’d love to have Jeremy Lin back.” I think he just doesn’t articulate well. I don’t really think there’s much beef to be honest.

      Like I said at the time, Melo’s comments definitely were just a case of Melo not expressing what he wanted to say (which is why I would have recommended a “no comment” on the topic). I do think there is tension between the two, but I do not believe it is so much so that Melo would try to push him out. Melo wants to win. He is not going to push a key player out just because of personality conflicts.

      JR’s comments…well, that’s a different matter.

    303. Brian Cronin

      Ken Berger with a more level headed take.

      http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ken-berger/19597352/knicks-weighing-pros-cons-of-matching-lin-offer-sheet

      Also Melo’s words were a bit distorted. First thing he said was “I’d love to have Jeremy Lin back.” I think he just doesn’t articulate well. I don’t really think there’s much beef to be honest.

      I like that column a lot since Berger was very gung ho the other night saying that the Knicks wouldn’t match, so it is noteworthy that he has changed his tune a lot.

    304. arthurprescott2

      rohank:
      Watching Team USA. Melo missed the dunk and was complaining about the call. In the distance, you could hear someone yell “GET BACK ON DEFENSE!”

      LOL

      noticed it too. he gets crap wherever he goes. LOL

    305. matte sideburns

      There’s a children’s book called “Who Sank The Boat?” where a group of animals get into a rowboat. First the larger ones, a horse, a cow, etc. until it’s clearly overcrowded. Finally a mouse gets in and the boat sinks. So who sank the boat? Was it the mouse because he got in last or were they all collectively responsible?
      I’m certainly not saying Lin’s 3rd year is mouse-sized, but the contracts we’ve committed to previously have created this situation where there’s no room for more salary. We signed Stat to a max contract that was such a risk that it’s uninsurable. If Lin goes on to play at a level anywhere near that 15 mil value in 14-15, while Stat never returns to his best (or breaks down entirely), then which contract is to blame for Dolan’s luxury tax problems?
      I completely accept Dolan’s reservations about committing to spending so much of his future money, even with his past record. The financial environment has changed and may change again. It’s a huge risk even if it was guaranteed to bring a title.
      If we concede that Dolan’s priority is avoiding the tax in 14-15, then the idea of trading Lin (or any of our other significant contracts) in the future doesn’t really work. We’d either have to take salary back, defeating the purpose of the trade, or we’d have to blow it up midway through year two of what’s supposed to be our window. If avoiding tax is the priority then the best case scenario is that we sign Lin and then sell high at the first opportunity, for contracts that expire pre-14-15 and draft picks. We’d all prefer that to letting him go for nothing but would we be able to get a deal like that?

    306. arthurprescott2

      Degree_Absolute: LOL!

      Probably D’Antoni.

      It was so loud so he definitely heard it and registered it since the guy he was supposed to cover was taking a 3 by the time Melo sprinted back. He hustled to make up though. His defense in general has been pretty good overall.

    307. Z

      arthurprescott2:
      I would argue luckiest break in decades was getting Ewing.

      It was lucky because picks 2-6 were: Wayman Tisdale, Benoit Benjamin, Xavier McDaniel, John Koncak, and Joe Kleine. But the #13 pick was Karl Malone…

      Luckier would have been the #1 pick in ’84. Even if they’d chosen Hakeem over Jordan, Knick history would be vastly different.

      But all we have is the present.

      And the present sucks.

    308. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin: But matching on Lin helps you get Chris Paul, as a trade would be the only way the Knicks could acquire Paul and Lin would certainly have to be involved in said trade.

      Chris Paul can always come to NY for the minimum veteran’s salary if he so desires. it seems kind of clear to me that something is going on behind the scenes here, I’d like to hear ruru’s take on this.

    309. Shad0wF0x

      @360

      I dunno. The were 1 bad pick away in Game 6 of 1994 that could have given them the championship. If I remember correctly, there was a screen and for some reason Olajuwon ended up guarding Starks. We all know how that ended.

    310. flossy

      jon abbey: Chris Paul can always come to NY for the minimum veteran’s salary if he so desires. it seems kind of clear to me that something is going on behind the scenes here, I’d like to hear ruru’s take on this.

      Not only is this the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day, please tell me you do realize that if Chris Paul is willing to come here for the veteran’s minimum (which, again, hahahaha), nobody needs to “clear the way” for him?

      Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, I guess you are conceding that Melo either facilitated or directly instigated Lin being run out of town–you just have a crackpot theory as to why? By all means, lets hear what Melo’s #1 water carrier has to say about the matter. He’s been all kinds of informative about this whole Lin issue, by which I mean he popped in upthread to… defend Melo’s character. And that’s about it.

    311. StatsTeacher

      At this point, as has been pointed, the situation is toxic. Lin seems to be a rocket. At least they have a great summer team — Royce White is a very interesting player, just watched them play. Their summer league is pretty much their team lol. Anyway, Jorts in the Houston Chronicle:

      “This offense is guard-oriented,” said Rockets forward Josh Harrellson, Lin’s teammate with the Knicks. “He’s going to have the ball the majority of the time. If you look at our roster, he’s going to be our superstar. In NewYork, you can’t say the same. Hopefully, he can come here, the offense can run through him, and he can make all the decisions for us.

      “As you can see, we don’t have a point guard right now. Right now, it’s instant minutes for him. For a kid that wants to play basketball and be part of a team and make it successful, hopefully he can come and do that for us.”

    312. JC Knickfan

      Shad0wF0x:
      @360

      I dunno. The were 1 bad pick away in Game 6 of 1994 that could have given them the championship. If I remember correctly, there was a screen and for some reason Olajuwon ended up guarding Starks. We all know how that ended.

      Not relive the agony, but Stark was 2-18 and 0-10 in 4th QT in Game 7. We only lost by 6. Some kind lucky bounce could have change last few minutes.

    313. Shad0wF0x

      Yeah when I re-watched that game a couple of years ago I was surprised how close it actually was. I just remember Ewing and the others deferring to Starks for some reason even though he was clearly off that night.

      When I look back at the series as a whole, it was pretty close.

    314. johnlocke

      once again…hours later, I’ll have what you’re drinking please. thanks.

      jon abbey: Chris Paul can always come to NY for the minimum veteran’s salary if he so desires. it seems kind of clear to me that something is going on behind the scenes here, I’d like to hear ruru’s take on this.

    315. Caleb

      Rod Boone with the “scoop.”

      It does feel a bit… just a teeny bit.. like the tide is turning.

      Of course Melo could be just doing some damage control or saying whatever pops into his head that minute.. he’s not a bad guy, just no self-awareness and not much of a filter.

      But there seem to be a lot of voices out there trying to calm the waters.

      Wish I was more optimistic.

    316. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, it is not so much Melo’s quotes (as, again, you can’t read too much into his quotes) so much as how multiple people who were going one way are slowly going the other way. Melo was one way and now he’s another way. Ken Berger was one way and now he’s another way. The ship might not be sinking!

    317. rohank

      Melo’s quotes are a positive development, but how much do you think he’s even talked to Dolan since the new contract came out? How does he know Dolan still wants him back? Melo’s been with team USA the whole time!

      Sorry. Just trying not to get my hopes up too much.

    318. massive

      rohank:
      Melo’s quotes are a positive development, but how much do you think he’s even talked to Dolan since the new contract came out? How does he know Dolan still wants him back? Melo’s been with team USA the whole time!

      Sorry. Just trying not to get my hopes up too much.

      Cell phones. The league’s premier players like to be kept in the loop on what direction their teams are heading, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Carmelo Anthony was in contact with Grunwald, Gabriel, Warkentein, Dolan, etc.

    319. matte sideburns

      Maybe Grunwald and Woodson are looking at the team we started with last year and making decisions based on that? If you replace the PG play of Douglas, Bibby and Shump with Felton and Kidd, do we start the season off so badly? Probably not. Then we don’t need an unprecedented sensation (whose play may or may not have been an outlier) to come in and save our season. Factor in the other upgrades we’ve made and this is a better team than we started with last year. How much better remains to be seen, but better.

      It sounds dumb to say it but this decision would be a lot easier if Linsanity never happened. So maybe they’ve been making all of their decisions with the Lin factor removed from the equation? Then re-signing Lin becomes purely a gamble on upside rather than the lynchpin of our whole season.

      Not saying I agree with this strategy, just trying (probably in vain) to find some logic, any logic, in the FO’s thinking.

    320. Shad0wF0x

      rohank:
      Melo’s quotes are a positive development, but how much do you think he’s even talked to Dolan since the new contract came out? How does he know Dolan still wants him back? Melo’s been with team USA the whole time!

      Sorry. Just trying not to get my hopes up too much.

      I keep up with my cousins who are half-way around the world easily via Facebook and Skype. I don’t think it’s too hard to keep up with associates within the U.S.

    321. Count de Pennies

      matte sideburns: just trying (probably in vain) to find some logic, any logic, in the FO’s thinking.

      Well, judging by the vast number of new comments that have been posted there in the last 48 hours, JD & The Straight Shot’s Youtube video has seen a huge surge of recent traffic.

      If the Lin rumors were intended as a gambit to prevent Dolan’s musical endeavors from irrevocably sinking into a wholly deserved obscurity, then “mission accomplished,” I guess.

      Click through on the following link only if your sound card is disabled or are hearing impaired:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiM91tc1fk

    322. jon abbey

      flossy: Not only is this the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day, please tell me you do realize that if Chris Paul is willing to come here for the veteran’s minimum (which, again, hahahaha), nobody needs to “clear the way” for him?

      Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, I guess you are conceding that Melo either facilitated or directly instigated Lin being run out of town–you just have a crackpot theory as to why?

      first of all, you can shove the condescension up your ass. my point is that when people say “it’s impossible for Chris Paul to come to NY”, it’s not, he can go anywhere that he wants. and mock that all you want, but JR Smith just took less to stay in NY (and is getting who knows what under the table to compensate him), Paul would just be a much more extreme version of this.

      as for a “crackpot theory”, maybe you don’t know the history of Carmelo and Chris Paul, but it’s not like I’m making this up. again, this just happened last week:

      “Melo & Chris Paul walked through media room here in Vegas & Melo said, referring to CP3, “You’ll see him in NY in a couple years.”(smiling).”

      do I think this is definitely going to happen? of course not. are you an idiot to condescendingly mock the possibility? yes.

    323. ruruland

      Caleb:
      Rod Boone with the “scoop.”

      It does feel a bit… just a teeny bit.. like the tide is turning.

      Of course Melo could be just doing some damage control or saying whatever pops into his head that minute.. he’s not a bad guy, just no self-awareness and not much of a filter.

      But there seem to be a lot of voices out there trying to calm the waters.

      Wish I was more optimistic.

      Self-awarness in aquiscence to whom? Honesty is typically a trait we admire in public figures……. this is not about self-awareness, it’s about scapegoating.

      You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say he doesn’t have a filter and then filter his comments to suit your narrative.

    324. ruruland

      jon abbey: first of all, you can shove the condescension up your ass. my point is that when people say “it’s impossible for Chris Paul to come to NY”, it’s not, he can go anywhere that he wants. and mock that all you want, but JR Smith just took less to stay in NY (and is getting who knows what under the table to compensate him), Paul would just be a much more extreme version of this.

      as for a “crackpot theory”, maybe you don’t know the history of Carmelo and Chris Paul, but it’s not like I’m making this up. again, this just happened last week:

      “Melo & Chris Paul walked through media room here in Vegas & Melo said, referring to CP3, “You’ll see him in NY in a couple years.”(smiling).”

      do I think this is definitely going to happen? of course not. are you an idiot to condescendingly mock the possibility? yes.

      Great post, Abbey. People’s reactions, including the media, are really starting to fucking piss me off.

    325. ruruland

      massive: Cell phones. The league’s premier players like to be kept in the loop on what direction their teams are heading, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Carmelo Anthony was in contact with Grunwald, Gabriel, Warkentein, Dolan, etc.

      No, here’s how it works. Melo and CAA are only involved if Lin leaves.

    326. jon abbey

      ruru, I’d really love to hear you talk about this some as opposed to just reacting to people’s posts.

    327. bobneptune

      jon abbey: first of all, you can shove the condescension up your ass. my point is that when people say “it’s impossible for Chris Paul to come to NY”, it’s not, he can go anywhere that he wants. and mock that all you want, but JR Smith just took less to stay in NY (and is getting who knows what under the table to compensate him), Paul would just be a much more extreme version of this.

      as for a “crackpot theory”, maybe you don’t know the history of Carmelo and Chris Paul, but it’s not like I’m making this up. again, this just happened last week:

      “Melo & Chris Paul walked through media room here in Vegas & Melo said, referring to CP3, “You’ll see him in NY in a couple years.”(smiling).”

      do I think this is definitely going to happen? of course not. are you an idiot to condescendingly mock the possibility? yes.

      Yeah… he’ll come to the garden like Marcel Dionne did, to collect a check his last 2 years when he’s all done and all the drone Knick fans will applaud like the trained seals that they are.

    328. max fisher-cohen

      Rather than the “he’s gonna be a flash in the pan” theories that all the rationalizers are spouting, why not look at the reverse: most players, even highly drafted players, struggle early on. Lin has only played 1,225 NBA minutes. Carmelo Anthony plays that many minutes in about 30 games.

      Most rookies suck their rookie years, and Lin hasn’t even played the equivalent of a full season, which means one can expect him to improve dramatically in the next couple years.

      if you look at active players who, as rookies, played more than 1,200 players and had a WS/48 greater than or equal to Lin’s career average, you find a total of 28 players. 13 have been all-stars, 4 more are near locks to make an ASG at some point in their careers (Lawson, Ibaka, Leonard, Monroe), 4 more look to be/have been solid starters (Scola, Haslem, Augustin, Millsap).

      After that, you have specialists with advanced stat friendly games: Nick Collison, Matt Bonner, Dejuan Blair

      And then two mediocre players in Rudy Fernandez and Marreese Speights

      And lastly, Greg Oden.

      So if we take Oden out of the equation, ignoring the tripe about Lin’s pedigree, and we say we need Lin to be at minimum a solid starter, 22/27 players who started their careers at or above Lin’s level achieved or look to achieve that level. that’s 81.4% chance. Add in the fact that most of those players played significantly more minutes in just their rookie years than Lin has in his career, and you’re likely underestimating Lin’s potential.

      People don’t seem to get it. Youth is ALWAYS a risk. I could make an argument that there’s a 10% chance that Kyrie Irving will never be an All-Star, and no one could dispute it, because those are the facts. Injuries and the human element often interfere. Like Nate Silver wrote, getting veteran players “seems like a risk-averse strategy [but] really isn’t — it’s just that all the risk is to the downside.”

    329. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      ruru, I’d really love to hear you talk about this some as opposed to just reacting to people’s posts.

      I have too many thoughts and there is way too much going on. But it’s such an uphill battle with perceptions. I will share my thoughts when this is over, but truth be told I really don’t think Melo knows much more than what any of us know.

      I, do, however, know that Melo is as serious about winning at this point as any great player in the NBA, and he understands how important a player like Lin is to winning. Moreover, in case people haven’t figured this out yet, melo says what he believes. How many times does he need to tell people he wants to play with Lin and likes Lin?

      I’m not really sure there are more than 5-10 people who know what;s going on at MSG, and I don’t think SAS is one of them — and he is not a mouthpiece for Melo and CAA…, sick of that shit….

    330. Count de Pennies

      What I can’t fathom is why Melo – a player – is taking so much blame for decisions made by a team whose owner is arguably the stupidest motherfucker in all of professional sports.

      No need to go digging behind the scenes for a scapegoat when the obvious one is out in plain sight, seated front and center.

    331. Brian Cronin

      What I can’t fathom is why Melo – a player – is taking so much blame for decisions made by a team whose owner is arguably the stupidest motherfucker in all of professional sports.

      Agreed. This is not Melo’s doing at all.

    332. ruruland

      Max, I’m with you 100 percent. Basketball people understand that Lin has demonstrated all-star caliber skills and abilities. Not elite skills and talents, there are physical and skills flaws, but an overall set that combined with his work ethic will likely make him one of the top 12 point guards on a yearly basis.

      Now, his efficiency of course is going down if you make him a primary option on a team… But I think in a balanced scenario his efficiency will be quite good, because he has an ability to be effective in most offensive point guard and off-guard situations.

      he is not, however, phsycially or skill dominant enough to replicate those things in a Steve Nash, create every play role.

      So, this is not about talent or chances of reaching upside, and I think there are plenty of enough smart people to reduce the risk should exposure occur, and we know this is not money.

      So, it’s about something else, and what that hesitation/reluctancy is no one outside of a very small circle knows.

    333. jon abbey

      pretty sure Peter Vecsey is saying that NY will keep Lin:

      Peter Vecsey ?@PeterVecsey1

      So much for those whose, ahem, sources claimed Knicks would not match….

    334. Brian Cronin

      pretty sure Peter Vecsey is saying that NY will keep Lin:

      Peter Vecsey ?@PeterVecsey1

      So much for those whose, ahem, sources claimed Knicks would not match….

      You’d have to think he wouldn’t start up a new Twitter account just to be wrong, right? So that’s a good sign.

    335. 2FOR18

      Sorry, but it is nuts to think Paul will give up a max contract to go anywhere for the vet min. of 1.7 mil, or whatever it is. I think anyone who says that kind of deserves some mocking.

      Should be a fun night tomorrow when we hopefully get some answers.

      For the masochistic Knick fan (redundant, I know), the Jordan MSG comeback 55 game is on MSG in a few minutes.

    336. Brian Cronin

      Hehe, his tweets are pretty funny really.

      This just in: Dolan matched on Lin after finding necessary luxury tax capital under his living room couch pillows…

    337. jon abbey

      2FOR18:
      Sorry, but it is nuts to think Paul will give up a max contract to go anywhere for the vet min. of 1.7 mil, or whatever it is.I think anyone who says that kind of deserves some mocking.

      NO ONE SAID THIS. I SAID THAT IT IS POSSIBLE IF HE WANTS TO.

    338. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I was just about to post that, Jon, that the “source” is…well, let’s say it is not the most credible one I’ve ever seen. Not that he’s wrong, just…well, you know. Take it with a boulder of salt.

    339. Count de Pennies

      If the Knicks do decide to match, then who’s left on the scrap heap to play point for the suddenly PG-less Rockets?

      Delonte West? Derek Fisher? John Lucas?

      It’s pretty late in the game and the pickin’s are mighty slim.

    340. 2FOR18

      Count de Pennies:
      What I can’t fathom is why Melo– a player – is taking so much blame for decisions made by a team whose owner is arguably the stupidest motherfucker in all of professional sports.

      No need to go digging behind the scenes for a scapegoat when the obvious one is out in plain sight, seated front and center.

      True, but it’s also silly to think melo/CAA are just innocent bystanders with no symbiotic relationship with Dolan.
      – See Woodson hiring CAA before he was rehired by Dolan.

    341. Unreason

      ruruland: …we know this is not money.

      Do you feel confident about that? I’d assumed it was mostly about money ever since ephus laid out the hit Dolan will take in the later years of the contract. Those several tens of millions are the simplest explanation. Lin will probably remain a big potential revenue generator for as long as he performs well, but isn’t that a lot for even a top star to help a franchise earn?

    342. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, I was just about to post that, Jon, that the “source” is…well, let’s say it is not the most credible one I’ve ever seen. Not that he’s wrong, just…well, you know. Take it with a boulder of salt.

      And that goes for every one of these hacks, Berman, Isola, the ESPN guys… While I have my issues with Beck, you’ll notice that he is not one of the guys using these anonymous sources. Don’t think that means he doesn’t have them. There is a different standard real journalists use. ESPN and the other hacks get these things wrong all the time, not just because they’re manipulated, but because they are too far down the food chain or, in other cases, taking sources information out of context or amplifying things they shouldn’t..

    343. jon abbey

      Count de Pennies:
      If the Knicks do decide to match, then who’s left on the scrap heap to play point for the suddenly PG-less Rockets?

      Delonte West? Derek Fisher? John Lucas?

      It’s pretty late in the game and the pickin’s are mighty slim.

      they’ll hope that Chicago doesn’t match on Asik, and let him play PG. :)

    344. 2FOR18

      jon abbey: NO ONE SAID THIS. I SAID THAT IT IS POSSIBLE IF HE WANTS TO.

      By even bringing this up and by using the melo quote re: Paul, you seem to be implying it’s a legit possibility.

    345. Brian Cronin

      And that goes for every one of these hacks, Berman, Isola, the ESPN guys… While I have my issues with Beck, you’ll notice that he is not one of the guys using these anonymous sources. Don’t think that means he doesn’t have them. There is a different standard real journalists use. ESPN and the other hacks get these things wrong all the time, not just because they’re manipulated, but because they are too far down the food chain or, in other cases, taking sources information out of context or amplifying things they shouldn’t..

      What gets me is when Isola rips Berman for committing to a story too soon and then changing his tune and yet Isola does the same thing!

    346. Brian Cronin

      I will personally apologize to every person I tweeted if somehow I am incorrect. Fortunately Roger Montgomery’s team knows

      Oh? You’ll apologize for your BS “scoop”? Good to know!

    347. jon abbey

      2FOR18: By even bringing this up and by using the melo quote re: Paul, you seem to be implying it’s a legit possibility.

      yes, of course it is. it’s even possible that he might end up making more money that way in the long term, if he can help lead NY to a title.

      is it probable? no. is it possible? most certainly. anyone who would dismiss this possibility entirely really needs to be paying closer attention.

    348. JK47

      I do have a small glimmer of hope that the Knicks will match, for this reason:

      This has turned into a huge media story now. The spotlight is on Dolan. He is an egomaniac and I don’t think he will want to be seen as “losing” to Darryl Morey and the Rockets. At the end of the day if he signs Lin he’s a hero and he “wins” the battle.

      So that gives me hope.

    349. ruruland

      2FOR18: True, but it’s also silly to think melo/CAA are just innocent bystanders with no symbiotic relationship with Dolan.
      – See Woodson hiring CAA before he was rehired by Dolan.

      Of course there is influence, obviously. Which is further reason why the grand conspiracy makes no sense — getting Lin back is great for Melo/CAA and the Knicks.

      It’s really that simple. And from day one, when you flesh Melo’s full resposnes out, he’s always said he wants Lin back.. Of course he does.

      If he don’t think he does, and you believe this is some conspiracy to push Lin, this is the worst political campaign of all time. If you think Melo is simpy responding to opinion polls, then you haven’t paid attention to what he’s said. Furthermore, everything he’s said amounts to strong evidence that he both doesn’t really know what’s going on and has no influence on the outcome of this particular situation.

      Like I said, it’s a small circle with this

    350. ruruland

      Brian Cronin: What gets me is when Isola rips Berman for committing to a story too soon and then changing his tune and yet Isola does the same thing!

      They’re both idiots and don’t seem to understand that most people see them as so. isola still thinks he’s going to make it as a national guy. He’s an idiot.

    351. Brian Cronin

      Antawn Jamison to the Lakers and OJ Mayo to Dallas.

      Hmmm…

      Collison
      Mayo
      Marion
      Dirk
      Kaman

      With Elton Brand, Beaubois, Brandon Wright, Vince Carter, Dahntay Jones and Dominique Jones (and probably at least one other vet minimum guy) off the bench?

      That’s an interesting team, at least. Who is the back-up 5? Brand?

    352. ruruland

      Unreason: Do you feel confident about that? I’d assumed it was mostly about money ever since ephus laid out the hit Dolan will take in the later years of the contract. Those several tens of millions are the simplest explanation. Lin will probably remain a big potential revenue generator for as long as he performs well, but isn’t that a lot for even a top star to help a franchise earn?

      yes.
      For example, how many years post-prime was T-mac among the leaders in jersey sales and how many times was he voted in all-star.

      You’re not just talking about national and local revenue here, you’re talking about basically owning the Asian NBA market which was huge then, and bigger now. In five years if Lin and the Knicks do what they’re capable of, you’re talking about a massive roi even when you look at 50 million or whatever in a single year tax hit.

      I mean, this could plausible make the man hundreds of millions of dollars over thje course of Lin’s career… Anything up to a billion dollars was slightly hyperbolic…. this is not about the benjamins

    353. ruruland

      We understand that post-Linsanity, Lin’s jersey outsold Lebron and Kobe. Now, imagine what a full year of exposure in the Asian market and domestically could do merchandise-wise. It’s insane. Don’t think it’s just Morey who gets Lin’s basketball value. houston is quite familair with how this works.

    354. Brian Cronin

      Forgive my ignorance but what is CAA?

      Creative Artists Agency, the agency that represents a lot of the NBA’s top stars, including Lebron, Wade, Bosh and Melo (oh, and Coach Woodson beginning this offseason).

    355. Shad0wF0x

      @417

      Heh yeah I Googled it. I didn’t think that Creative Artists Agency applied to athletes when I saw the search results though.

    356. 2FOR18

      jon abbey: yes, of course it is. it’s even possible that he might end up making more money that way in the long term, if he can help lead NY to a title.

      is it probable? no. is it possible? most certainly. anyone who would dismiss this possibility entirely really needs to be paying closer attention.

      In terms of Paul taking the vet’s minimum of about 2 mil in lieu of a max contract paying about 18 mil a year, yes I dismiss the possibility entirely.

    357. ruruland

      ruruland: Not what is sold on 5th avenue.

      Anything local stays home. Ephus is the man to answer this as I think he figured this out previously, but with the amount of immigrants and tourists it’s significant number.

      At, what $200 or so a pop now?

    358. Brian Cronin

      Not what is sold on 5th avenue.

      True. But while they sold a lot of jerseys, the Knicks’ merchandise sales were “only” in the single digit millions last year. Is that a significant enough revenue stream? I dunno, maybe!

    359. Unreason

      ruruland: yes.For example, how many years post-prime was T-mac among the leaders in jersey sales and how many times was he voted in all-star.You’re not just talking about national and local revenue here, you’re talking about basically owning the Asian NBA market which was huge then, and bigger now. In five years if Lin and the Knicks do what they’re capable of, you’re talking about a massive roi even when you look at 50 million or whatever in a single year tax hit. I mean, this could plausible make the man hundreds of millions of dollars over thje course of Lin’s career… Anything up to a billion dollars was slightly hyperbolic…. this is not about the benjamins

      Wow. Well the basketball decision doesn’t seem like a hard one to me. If it wasn’t a business decision, I’ll just hope the delay in resolving this is part of some strategy I don’t understand that somehow screws with the Rocket’s plans, and makes them and other teams think twice about doing something similar again.

    360. ruruland

      Brian Cronin: True. But while they sold a lot of jerseys, their merchandise sales were “only” in the single digit millions. Is that a significant enough revenue stream?

      As part of the revenue mix Lin would potentially significantly enhance, I’d say yes.

      A smart owner would find a way to get 2-3 exhibition games in Asia a year — we know Stern wants that.. That’s double digits millions as well..

      When you start to add it all up, it’s a no-brainer.

    361. Brian Cronin

      I think the deal is a no-brainer, as well, but I just don’t know if Lin legitimately adds $30-40 million of extra revenue to the Knicks. It might. I just don’t know.

    362. ruruland

      Unreason: Wow. Well the basketball decision doesn’t seem like a hard one to me. If it wasn’t a business decision, I’ll just hope the delay in resolving this is part of some strategy I don’t understand that somehow screws with the Rocket’s plans, and makes them and other teams think twice about doing something similar again.

      I wouldn’t be surprised. I know Warkentein is a borderline genius (and also a totally creepy/eclectic guy) who’s played a role in creating this roster so far and Grunwald seems quite capable as well… I think there are a lot of machinations, a lot of wheels spinning, it’s either a chess game or you’re dealing with the emotional volatility of a child who doesn’t know how to play checkers and is threatening to smash the board.

      But I really don’t think anyone has broken into the circle. These guys are too good and apparently not many can touch Dolan.

    363. arthurprescott2

      Brian Cronin:
      I think the deal is a no-brainer, as well, but I just don’t know if Lin legitimately adds $30-40 million of extra revenue to the Knicks. It might. I just don’t know.

      Can we count the tv deals that Linsanity helped push through earlier in the year? Linsanity is widely credited to have broken the deadlock right?

    364. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      I think the deal is a no-brainer, as well, but I just don’t know if Lin legitimately adds $30-40 million of extra revenue to the Knicks. It might. I just don’t know.

      On a yearly basis, IDK. But again, if you stretch the years the numbers don’t look as bad… What is the per annum tax averaged out over the contract? Not 30-40 million clearly

    365. Brian Cronin

      On a yearly basis, IDK. But again, if you stretch the years the numbers don’t look as bad… What is the per annum tax averaged out over the contract? Not 30-40 million clearly

      The total luxury cap hit for Lin over the life of the contract, I believe, is roughly $50 million (maybe closer to $60 million). That’s on top of the $25 million in salary commitments. I’m certainly not saying that they won’t be able to make that up over three years, but that’s a loooooot of money.

    366. Brian Cronin

      My thing is that I think if you’re committed to paying the luxury tax, as Dolan clearly is, then it makes sense to pay for Lin. I can’t say with a certainty, though, that Lin will recoup the investment. Although with the stretch provision, as I noted, the worst case scenario of paying $40 million in luxury taxes on a terrible player is not all that likely.

    367. ruruland

      Brian Cronin: The total luxury cap hit for Lin over the life of the contract, I believe, is roughly $50 million. That’s on top of the $25 million in salary commitments. I’m certainly not saying that they won’t be able to make that up over three years, but that’s a loooooot of money.

      So, say it’s a total cost of $25 million per

      not looking at arena signange, ticket increases. lux box increases, merchandise or any of the myriad ways he improves MSG’s value….

      How about just playoff gate receipts?

      If Lin helps the Knicks get another playoff series next year, extended? MSG gets about $4 million per game in playoff gate recepits (http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052748703786004577221504148732124.html)

      Say that Lin helps add a total of 5 home playoff games, that’s $20 mill right there.

    368. Veal Scalabrine

      Hi everyone; finally had a chance to catch up on the dialogue here re Jeremy Lin and wanted to share my thoughts. To be clear, not matching Houston’s offer sheet would be categorical, unconscionable SUICIDE. Here’s why:
      – whatever the obscene luxury tax implications (~ 45-55 mil), that is POCKET CHANGE for James Dolan. He has never demonstrated fiscal restraint before, and has enough wealth that he surely doesn’t need to now. We’re not Sacto/OKC; it’s pointless to assess Lin’s “value” through the reference frame of anything other than Dolan’s bottomless wallet.
      – Irrespective of merchandise sales, sponsorships, promo tie-ins, and unprecedented visibility in China (the largest, fastest-developing, emerging economy in modern history), the $600 mil rise in MSG market cap during Linsanity alone pays for the contract 7x over. (Yes, this assumes the stock won’t retreat, but it won’t if only because of the $$$ windfall MSG will earn from the new Time Warner deal–which Lin effectively brokered.) Even if Lin doesn’t improve on past performance, even if the Knicks don’t collectively improve theirs, Lin is a PROFIT MACHINE and a cultural phenomenon second only to LeBron.
      – Given the arrival of the Nets in Brooklyn–with a very credible team, no less–now is the WORST possible time for alienating the Knicks fan base by letting Lin go for nothing. From a pop-cultural narrative standpoint, not signing Lin would be deadly now that we have actual competition in the NYC market. Remember, the NYC Asian population is larger than the entire population of many of America’s largest cities. They will be fans whether Lin realizes his full potential or not.
      – We know what the Knicks are without Lin: a perennial 4-6 seed that will advance to the conf semis at best. Only player on team (based on prior performance, age, stat comps) that could move the needle with continued development? You guessed it–Lin. Don’t know about you, but I don’t want to watch the Atlanta…

    369. Brian Cronin

      By the way, while I think that not matching Lin would, in effect, take away any shot of the team being a legit contender any time soon, I think they’ll be better than Woodson’s Atlanta Hawks. Those Hawks teams never had any player as good as Melo on them.

    370. Veal Scalabrine

      As for the contract, it also makes sense–believe it or not–on “basketball reasons” alone. Almost every advanced statistical measure demonstrates (+/-, adjusted +/-, WS/48 on/off court off/def rating) that Lin was the most valuable Knick last year. Three of the Knicks’ four most successful lineup combos involved Lin. 2 involved Chandler, 1 involved Melo, NONE involved Amare. If one were to pin the “blame” for the luxury tax the Knicks will pay in 2014-2015 (and, trust me, if Joe Johnson can get traded, ANY of our bloated contracts can be unloaded before then), whose deal that season looks worse: Lin at 14.8 mil, or Amare at 24 mil? Given his injury history/advanced age, I’d unequivocally say the latter.

      Nate Silver’s column yesterday in the times should be required reading. Better yet, read the following link: it ought to make even the most ardent saber metric agnostics weak in the knees for Kevin Pelton, Synergy Sports, et al.

      http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/11/jeremy-lin-is-no-fluke/

    371. Z

      So I take it from the recent comments here that the stooges on twitter and in the media starting to open the door to a possible match. Not too surprising, I guess, as they’ll bite anything that’s dangled in front of them. Not sure what the purpose of the bullshit delay tactic or Feton signing by MSG is all about, though.

      This franchise still sucks oh so very much, regardless of the way this ends… To screw around with a gift hand delivered from god himself is the very definition of hubris. Fuck ‘em all.

    372. Brian Cronin

      I’m still pretty pessimistic (only a hope for logic winning out has me optimistic at all), but if they do end up matching, Z, I don’t think we should give them any shit. I mean, sure, they gave us all heartburn for a few days (as Frank nicely described it, it was like we got punched in the gut) but if he returns, then the Knicks will look like they have a very nice team next season. So I think it is all good if they keep him.

      Big if, of course.

    373. Veal Scalabrine

      Finally, the signing of Raymond Felton does not have to signal a lack of rotation minutes for our sudden “point guard depth” (assuming the return of Lin). I could easily see Lin and Kidd be successful in the backcourt together. Kidd is big/savvy enough to guard two’s and would provide strong floor spacing with his spot-up 3 capabilities–which is what this team, as currently constructed, needs more than anything else. And if teams lock in on Lin like Miami did, then Kidd is available to orchestrate in the half-court, and Lin is free to cut to the basket off pin-down screens or along the weak side as defenses collapse on Chandler/Amare/Melo diving to the basket off PnR action. After the Melo trade, Felton enjoyed much success when paired w/ Ty Lawson. Pair him w/ Lin and you could push the tempo and force teams to go small. If we move beyond outdated notions of “defined” positions, all sorts of intriguing possibilities exist if Woodson is creative enough to devise and deploy them. Having two point guards in the backcourt, one with the size and/or tenacity to guard the wing, is a coach’s dream. Especially with Shumpert out until January at the earliest, it is imperative that we get creative on the perimeter. Having Lin (even at the exorbitant price), Kidd, and Felton enables us to do that. It’s not like we have the cap flexibility to engineer something game-changing in the next 2 years. We have to maximize what we have, and hope that a bit of continuity for the first time in many years, coupled with the upside potential of Lin (and, let’s not forget, Shumpert), can elevate us into title contention over the next 3 years. That is the window for this team–no more, no less.

    374. Z

      Yeah, I’d like to say “no harm, no foul”, but I gotta blow my whistle on this. Why the charade? As you have pointed out very wisely here the past 48 hours Brian, what changed between the initial offer and the amended one? Very little. Either the NYK don’t understand the cap/luxury tax or they have some kind of retarded personal agenda. Either way, it’s not really all good.

    375. Brian Cronin

      So, say it’s a total cost of $25 million per

      not looking at arena signange, ticket increases. lux box increases, merchandise or any of the myriad ways he improves MSG’s value….

      How about just playoff gate receipts?

      If Lin helps the Knicks get another playoff series next year, extended? MSG gets about $4 million per game in playoff gate recepits (http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052748703786004577221504148732124.html)

      Say that Lin helps add a total of 5 home playoff games, that’s $20 mill right there.

      I can buy that. Does Dolan?

      By the way, one thing that sort of strikes me as funny (well, not “ha ha funny”) is that if the Knicks don’t match, then that will be your first experience as a Knick fan where the Knicks’ stupidity kicked you in the stomach. You’ll truly be “one of us.” :)

    376. BigBlueAL

      I know I shouldnt be surprised but I still am at how basically unanimous it is that the Knicks should let Lin go according to most the NY media. Not only that they are actually praising the Knicks for letting him go!!

    377. JK47

      BigBlueAL:
      I know I shouldnt be surprised but I still am at how basically unanimous it is that the Knicks should let Lin go according to most the NY media.Not only that they are actually praising the Knicks for letting him go!!

      The pinhead line of thinking is that “he’s only played 35 games, he doesn’t deserve the money, it was a fluke.”

      Yeah, it’s just a fluke to play 940 minutes of kickass basketball in the NBA. Pretty much any dude off the street can do that.

      Like I said, pinheads.

    378. arthurprescott2

      BigBlueAL:
      I know I shouldnt be surprised but I still am at how basically unanimous it is that the Knicks should let Lin go according to most the NY media.Not only that they are actually praising the Knicks for letting him go!!

      The first wave was like that. But today’s radio/articles/podcasts seem to have either swung around or come to the table with a more reasonable viewpoint. Even ESPN’s 5-on-5 seems to lean on matching Lin. And not based on marketing, mostly based on the basketball upside/asset arguments.

    379. Frank

      Count de Pennies: What I can’t fathom is why Melo – a player – is taking so much blame for decisions made by a team whose owner is arguably the stupidest motherfucker in all of professional sports.

      Exactly. And 50% of the posters here lap up the crap that Berman and Isola put out there like hungry dogs. I’ve followed Melo about as closely as one can the last 2 years, and I’ve seen nothing that proves to me that he is a selfish egotistic idiot who would rather pad his own stats at the expense of winning and having the best team on the floor with him. Everything is press innuendo and taking things he says out of context — other than that comment he made about trying harder after Woodson came (that was pretty damning). But there is ZERO out there that tells me that he doesn’t want Lin back.

      You can call me naive, that CAA is pulling all the strings, but who made up that meme? SAS, who is still living off one scoop he had 2 years ago with the Lebacle? Ken Berger, who used to be pretty reasonable, then somewhere along the way turned into Woj with his over-the-top melodramatic editorials? (Berger still reports well, just editorializes like a drama queen now).

      And so maybe I am naive, but to pile on someone on OUR OWN TEAM without any proof whatsoever, just seems wrong.

      That said – I think Melo:
      – is bad with the press
      – trusts his own game too much (and others not enough sometimes)
      – is stubborn and thinks he knows the best way to win
      – probably doesn’t work on his fitness as much as he should

      But that doesn’t mean he’s an evil mastermind plotting to sabotage the team to further his own glory. It’s just a stupid storyline that there’s no evidence for. And he knows — from Boone’s twitter/interview with him: “Was Melo surprised by the reaction to his comments? “I always get backlash. It’s nothing new. It is what it is.””

    380. 2FOR18

      Frank: Exactly.And 50% of the posters here lap up the crap that Berman and Isola put out there like hungry dogs.I’ve followed Melo about as closely as one can the last 2 years, and I’ve seen nothing that proves to me that he is a selfish egotistic idiot who would rather pad his own stats at the expense of winning and having the best team on the floor with him.Everything is press innuendo and taking things he says out of context — other than that comment he made about trying harder after Woodson came (that was pretty damning).But there is ZERO out there that tells me that he doesn’t want Lin back.

      You can call me naive, that CAA is pulling all the strings, but who made up that meme? SAS, who is still living off one scoop he had 2 years ago with the Lebacle?Ken Berger, who used to be pretty reasonable, then somewhere along the way turned into Woj with his over-the-top melodramatic editorials? (Berger still reports well, just editorializes like a drama queen now).

      And so maybe I am naive, but to pile on someone on OUR OWN TEAM without any proof whatsoever, just seems wrong.

      But that doesn’t mean he’s an evil mastermind plotting to sabotage the team to further his own glory. It’s just a stupid storyline that there’s no evidence for. And he knows — from Boone’s twitter/interview with him: “Was Melo surprised by the reaction to his comments? “I always get backlash. It’s nothing new. It is what it is.””

      Here’s a diagram:
      Dolan’s a starfuker. The current star is melo. melo is repped by CAA. Dolan rehired Woodson only after Woodson fired his agent and hired CAA.
      Also, it’s weak that you mention melo admitting playing harder under Woodson, right after stating that you don’t see anything “that proves to me that he is a selfish egotistic idiot who would rather pad his own stats at the expense of winning and having the best team on the…

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