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Friday, October 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 08 2013)

  • [New York Times] Thunder Star Durant Engaged to Lynx G Wright (Mon, 08 Jul 2013 08:26:49 GMT)
    Oklahoma City Thunder star Kevin Durant is engaged to Minnesota Lynx guard Monica Wright.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Liberty Are Trounced at Home by Sky (Mon, 08 Jul 2013 04:24:15 GMT)
    Elena Delle Donne scored 20 points, and Epiphanny Prince added 18 to help the Chicago Sky rout the Liberty.    

  • [New York Times] Kidd Coaches First Game With Nets and Picks Up First Technical (Mon, 08 Jul 2013 02:58:01 GMT)
    Jason Kidd made his N.B.A. coaching debut with a loss to the Pistons in the Orlando Summer League, a 10-team tournament for rookies and developing players.    

  • 143 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 08 2013)

    1. Vinny L.

      Peyton Siva looked good in that summer league win against the Nets…

      Anyway….

      Nate Robinson can’t find a home, but Prig gets a multi-year/multi-million dollar contract! HA!

      The Knicks just wasted the MLE on Prig, who is not all that great IMO. So forget about any chance of any player you guys are about to mention here coming to the Knicks. Prepare to be frustrated as every team except the Knicks gets good players before the 2014 season starts.

      FYI

      Although it’s painful to see Cope go, I would have liked the Knicks to treat Prig like they treated Cope, by not making any further offer to Prig after their initial qualifying offer to him which was short of $1 million. Let Cope and Prig walk (assuming that any other team really wanted Prig that badly), make the Bargnani deal to replace Cope, then use ALL of the MLE to get a real PF/C or PG who’s in his prime:

      Nate Robinson (replace Prig)
      Darren Collison (replace Prig)
      Will Bynum (replace Prig)
      Tyler Hansbrough (replace K-Mart)
      Timofey Mozgov (backup or play along side Tyson)

    2. Vinny L.

      All roads lead to the Knicks over-rating of Prig!

      Now they can’t even afford to retain the services of K-Mart or Brand.

    3. Z-man

      Wow, Vin, you are really stuck on this Prig thing. Do you realize that we had no back-up PG and that Nate and Collison were long shots even with the full MMLE? And that Nate and Bynum are not really PGs and Collison is not better than Prigs? I understand you don’t like the guy, but you really sound like a warped, broken record.

    4. Juany8

      Z-man:
      Wow, Vin, you are really stuck on this Prig thing. Do you realize that we had no back-up PG and that Nate and Collison were long shots even with the full MMLE? And that Nate and Bynum are not really PGs and Collison is not better than Prigs? I understand you don’t like the guy, but you really sound like a warped, broken record.

      Yea I can understand the shit Melo gets since he gets paid a max contract and the Knicks gave up a ton to get him, but Prigs? Dude is a good backup point guard who’s certainly worth the money, if anything the mistake, as always, is that the Knicks are retarded and only sign these players for one year. It’s a minimum fucking contract for a guy who will be happy to sign pretty much anything you put in front of him, give them the stupid second year and actually keep them at the low price you want. The rockets do this EVERY year, what are the Knicks worried about, having to pay under a million for a guy sitting at the end of the bench? If you think he might be good, then plan in him being good! Don’t act all surprised and get fucked when someone signs him for too much money.

    5. Frank

      Starting to feel better and better about this Bargnani pickup. Like Tom Penn on ESPN Radio said, if you look at what he can do rather than what he’s not good at, you realize that the dude is ridiculously talented. Yes, he needs to be protected on the defensive end, which means he has to be handcuffed to either Tyson or someone like K-Mart/Brand (hopefully Brand), but he can really do some things on the offensive end. I’ll choose to basically give him a mulligan on 2012-13, and if you do that, he looks a lot better as a player. Check out this post (via theknicksblog) and look at some of his highlights — yes, highlights are obviously huge selection bias, but it gives you an idea of what he can do — and there are just very few guys that can do these things.

      http://www.hardwoodcanvas.com/2013/07/07/advanced-analytics-bargnanis-pick-and-pop-game/#.Udq6rBZ3-VK

    6. jon abbey

      Frank:
      Yes, he needs to be protected on the defensive end, which means he has to be handcuffed to either Tyson or someone like K-Mart/Brand (hopefully Brand), but he can really do some things on the offensive end.

      but the question, like I said on the last thread, is how do you play both him and Amar’e at the same time? it’s less of an issue if Melo plays SF and those two split PF and we use Chandler and another real center at the 5 as you said, but then we lose the Melo at 4 advantage that seemed to drive the offense last year.

    7. danvt

      For the life of me I can’t see why some people continue to follow NYK. If I’m gonna pay for league pass (I live out of market) I’m going to continue to believe in the direction of the franchise. If I’m positive they just traded for the worst player in the NBA or that Woodson is a crappy coach or that they’re a lock to win 45 games then I’m not going to waste my time.

      Until then I’ll make optimistic interpretations of front office moves and hope for career years for the players once they hit the court.

    8. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      danvt:
      For the life of me I can’t see why some people continue to follow NYK.If I’m gonna pay for league pass (I live out of market) I’m going to continue to believe in the direction of the franchise.If I’m positive they just traded for the worst player in the NBA or that Woodson is a crappy coach or that they’re a lock to win 45 games then I’m not going to waste my time.

      Until then I’ll make optimistic interpretations of front office moves and hope for career years for the players once they hit the court.

      Is there any doubt that Bargnani is the worst starter in the NBA over the last five years? You’d have to be seriously deluded by fan-boy luv to argue that he’s anything but the worst rebounding PF/C in recent memory.

    9. thenamestsam

      ptmilo:
      This article is way too optimistic on the sample size needed for good information on NBA lineups, let alone 3-man combinations.The easy pickings is the idea that 47 minutes is only a “somewhat” small sample size “that is not entirely insignificant.”47 minutes is risibly, infinitesimally insignificant and contains the information content of a single lottery result.

      Just wanted to give a +1 to this from yesterday. The article itself didn’t get a lot of discussion, but some of the sample sizes used in it were completely absurd. Lineup data is fine and frequently very interesting but you CANNOT use it as the only piece of data in an analysis in those sample sizes as it frequently was in that piece. You can use it to support other analysis but acting as though 47 minutes of +/- data on its own tells us anything is crazy.

    10. thenamestsam

      jon abbey: but the question, like I said on the last thread, is how do you play both him and Amar’e at the same time? it’s less of an issue if Melo plays SF and those two split PF and we use Chandler and another real center at the 5 as you said, but then we lose the Melo at 4 advantage that seemed to drive the offense last year.

      Agree with you 100% here Jon. The Amare-Bargs combo seems appealing on the offensive end because of the pairing of the strong 1 on 1 post game with the floor spacing that Bargs (theoretically, if he remembers how to shoot) provides. But that combination could be hide your eyes bad at the other end. And we’ve already seen the defensive nightmare that is Amare-Melo (without another big) defensive pairings. I don’t see any reason to expect Bargs-Melo to be much better.

      I expect them to sign another big to back up Chandler and start the season with 4 true bigs in the rotation and Melo at the 4 basically dead, with their hope being that Bargs shooting will replicate many of the offensive benefits of playing 3 smaller guys with Melo but without Melo having to bang on defense. We’ll see whether that works out.

      It’s also worth considering that Tyson, Amare and Bargs all have significant injury histories and that the 4th big is likely to be on the grey side. So while they may not plan to feature Melo at the 4 when everyone is healthy, “everyone is healthy” may not be a frequent statement about the frontcourt.

    11. massive

      If Melo leaves us in 2014, he couldn’t have chosen a better year. I assume that’s the year Jabari Parker (who I believe is a better pro prospect than Andrew Wiggins) comes out, so we can just tank and hope Silver rewards us with a Top 3 pick the way Stern did every team that lost a franchise player in recent history. Jabari Parker plus all the cap space that summer and we’d be in better position than we would be if Melo were to opt in for his final year.

      For that reason alone, I know Melo will stay. I would love to have Jabari Parker as a Knick, but I don’t think he’ll be rewarded to us. One can hope.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank:
      Check out this post (via theknicksblog) and look at some of his highlights — yes, highlights are obviously huge selection bias, but it gives you an idea of what he can do — and there are just very few guys that can do these things.

      Why would you want to do that?

      Homeboy needs to read Moneyball. Look at highlight reels is the best way to delude yourself into thinking that he’s good at basketball.

    13. AvonBarksdale

      A good comparison would be Bargs defense and rebounding (prior to the recent injury year) vs. pre-Woodson coaching knicks Melo defense and rebounding. that could be a more optimistic skew on the entire situation or could highlight how bad bargs banging on defense in place of melo who physically can’t sustain what he had to do last year. another comparison separate of that would be Novak def and rebounding last year vs. bargs year prior to recent injury. whose up for the challenge of googling that ish, i have to get back to work!

    14. thenamestsam

      massive:
      If Melo leaves us in 2014, he couldn’t have chosen a better year. I assume that’s the year Jabari Parker (who I believe is a better pro prospect than Andrew Wiggins) comes out, so we can just tank and hope Silver rewards us with a Top 3 pick the way Stern did every team that lost a franchise player in recent history. Jabari Parker plus all the cap space that summer and we’d be in better position than we would be if Melo were to opt in for his final year.

      For that reason alone, I know Melo will stay. I would love to have Jabari Parker as a Knick, but I don’t think he’ll be rewarded to us. One can hope.

      Any reason you think Parker isn’t coming out next year? Everything I’ve read indicates that he’s expected to be 1 and done at Duke.

    15. massive

      I’ve seen my fair share of interviews where Parker stated that he wants to take advantage of the educational opportunity that Duke University provides since Duke is a top institution in the country. I think he’ll stay two years so he can get a better education. He’s a known mormon, so I assume his values are different from that of the normal innercity youth. Very well spoken young man.

      thenamestsam: Any reason you think Parker isn’t coming out next year? Everything I’ve read indicates that he’s expected to be 1 and done at Duke.

    16. danvt

      (cont. from my last post if you care,@7) That’s why I’m a fan of RURU. He makes a legitimate case that good outcomes are possible. I’m not saying all posts have to have be optimistic but certain posters, like JOWLES tend to be very absolute. Stuff like “If Bargnani plays 2000 minutes the Knicks are going to be much worse than last year”

      I like Jon Abbey’s posts, though I don’t exactly agree on Woodson and I really like Robert Silverman’s writing, which he doesn’t. But I don’t feel like he has some point of view that he needs to defend. He sees the positive and the negative. RURU is like Paul Krugman. He has a point of view that I share and I find the information useful.

      On Silverman, he suffers from ennui but he hasn’t completely checked out like Mike K. He wants the Knicks to win like I did when I was fifteen. It means literally everything at moments. He may see the flaws but he’s a Knick fan through and through in that he’s there for every game.

      I respect that Ted Nelson just quit though it’s ironic that the team won 54 games the season he did. His posts will gain authority for me as he watches games through the year (hopefully and continues posting…). I’m not watching the Yankees this year. Not until they can get a run home from third with less than two out more reliably. It’s dumb to persist if the persistence is not rewarding to you. NYK has rewarded my persistence over the last couple of years so I’m going to stay tuned in.

    17. johnno

      alsep73: https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/354244725638828032
      Yay! Now we get to spend weeks and months on the idea of Melo opting out and going to the Lakers! Fun for everyone! Especially Screamin’ A Smith!

      For what it’s worth, I heard the interview and SAS did NOT say that it was 50-50 that Melo leaves the Knicks next year. He said that he thinks that the LAKERS think that they have a 50-50 shot at luring Melo next year.

    18. danvt

      Well, he’s got to be better than some people to be an NBA starter. It’s not fan-boy love it’s just a little faith that our FO brought low on an athlete who might provide a decent return. I’m not sure, but boy are you sure. That’s why I wonder why you bother.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Is there any doubt that Bargnani is the worst starter in the NBA over the last five years? You’d have to be seriously deluded by fan-boy luv to argue that he’s anything but the worst rebounding PF/C in recent memory.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Homeboy needs to read Moneyball. Look at highlight reels is the best way to delude yourself into thinking that he’s good at basketball.

      It illustrates a players skill set.

    19. thenamestsam

      massive:
      I’ve seen my fair share of interviews where Parker stated that he wants to take advantage of the educational opportunity that Duke University provides since Duke is a top institution in the country. I think he’ll stay two years so he can get a better education. He’s a known mormon, so I assume his values are different from that of the normal innercity youth. Very well spoken young man.

      Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Still, if he makes it through the year healthy and is guaranteed to be a top-3 pick, that’s tough to walk away from. I’d never criticize any kid for chasing that sort of money.

    20. Juany8

      Good posts danvt, I don’t mind seeing a few negative posts as long as they’re fair, like with Jon abbey or some of the writers, but then you get people acting like the sky is falling because we picked up bargs like now the Knicks HAVE to play him 30 minutes a game and make him a major part of the offense. The Knicks weren’t exactly playing cope, Novak, and camby a ton of minutes, unless we sign no other bigs or have a bunch of injuries, why would you expect bargs to play major minutes? As far as defense and rebounding, it’s not like playing Melo at the 4 and Novak at the 3 is going to be a big advantage compared to bargs at the 4 and Melo at the 3.

      So yea, if bargs is the starting center next to Anthony the Knicks will have major problems. Not because bargs automatically makes this team awful, but because it means things are gojng horribly wrong with the rest of the bigs on the roster. It was a minor trade in which the Knicks gave away draft picks just as easily as they do in every fucking trade. If it wasn’t for all the stat heads that HAVE to point out how bad bargs was by their numbers, none of us would be making a big deal about this.

    21. mokers

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why would you want to do that?

      Homeboy needs to read Moneyball. Look at highlight reels is the best way to delude yourself into thinking that he’s good at basketball.

      You probably should have read the article as it mentions how underrated Chandler is as a finisher as the roll man. It really only mentions how Bargs is very good at pick and pop, using mostly synergy numbers. It doesn’t have any WP, so it may not pass your eye-test as competent article though.

      On the whole, you can see what the idea of bringing AB in. Teams that are keyed on to our dominant pick and roll action with Tyson were able to expose the worst part of the Knicks offense, the midrange Felton jumper. It will also give a chance to have better entries for Melo and Amar’e in the post.

      In the end, I think the season depends more on 1a) Chandler being healthy 1b) Amar’e being healthy.

    22. Hubert

      The annoying thing about the Prigioni signing is that the CBA is so stupid we had to blow over half our mini-MLE just to give slightly more than the vet’s minimum.

    23. danvt

      johnno: For what it’s worth, I heard the interview and SAS did NOT say that it was 50-50 that Melo leaves the Knicks next year. He said that he thinks that the LAKERS think that they have a 50-50 shot at luring Melo next year.

      Don’t worry, Melo will grow old and brittle in a NYK uniform. See, there’s some negativity for forgone conclusion crowd.

    24. Frank O.

      Melo had a good year, but I worry about the pounding he takes at the 4.
      I would prefer to see him at the 3, with Amare at the 4 and Bargnani backing up the 5 and 4.


      Kind of wish the Knicks could trade for Asik

    25. Frank O.

      Had to laugh reading through the last thread. Seeing Ted Nelson, jon abbey and cock jowles annoying the shit out of each other was a rather odd flashback.

    26. mokers

      Frank O.:
      Melo had a good year, but I worry about the pounding he takes at the 4.
      I would prefer to see him at the 3, with Amare at the 4 and Bargnani backing up the 5 and 4.


      Kind of wish the Knicks could trade for Asik

      The funny thing is that it started in the Olympics! There were times out there when Melo would be defending in the post even when you had Kevin Love in there. Tyson was often in foul trouble and they weren’t playing Anthony Davis, so Carmelo would be guarding the post for long stretches in the game.

      Overall, Anthony at the 4 works in a lot of ways, but NY has to have their own “jumbo” package to be able to counter games against Chicago, Memphis, Indiana, Brooklyn, etc.

      I was thinking of ways to get Asik, but it would require getting the Lakers involved in a Howard sign and trade, which they aren’t doing. Morey might not deal with us since we don’t have any 2nd rounders to give to him. A third team would have to be involved in any case, as I don’t think the Rockets would pair Chandler and Howard.

    27. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Is there any doubt that Bargnani is the worst starter in the NBA over the last five years? You’d have to be seriously deluded by fan-boy luv to argue that he’s anything but the worst rebounding PF/C in recent memory.

      this is almost word for word what you said about Blatche last summer, hopefully Bargnani turns out just as well.

      AND NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO REBOUND, depending on who your teammates are. if you were a GM, Reggie Evans would be working on a 4/48 instead of the minimum journeyman he actually and rightfully is.

    28. Frank O.

      I tried the trade machines but they don’t reflect the roster changes as of yet.
      The Howard deal is done, so it would have to involve someone else.
      Honestly, I love Tyson’s fire, but after watching his struggles last year, his absence of any real offense, I’d take Asik over him.

    29. Frank O.

      jon abbey: this is almost word for word what you said about Blatche last summer, hopefully Bargnani turns out just as well.

      AND NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO REBOUND, depending on who your teammates are. if you were a GM, Reggie Evans would be working on a 4/48 instead of the minimum journeyman he actually and rightfully is.

      In Bargs, you get a big man who can spread the floor, and clear out the paint for Melo or Amare.
      You also have a guy that would force Hibbert out of the paint.

    30. Juany8

      jon abbey: this is almost word for word what you said about Blatche last summer, hopefully Bargnani turns out just as well.

      AND NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO REBOUND, depending on who your teammates are. if you were a GM, Reggie Evans would be working on a 4/48 instead of the minimum journeyman he actually and rightfully is.

      Perhaps more importantly, not everyone needs to get offensive rebounds, and that’s really where bargs is piss poor as a rebounder. He’s ok at defensive rebounding, and the Knicks don’t really go for offensive rebounds much anyways, so I think the rebounding is being a little overblown, unless of course Amare and bargs end up sharing the front court. I’m starting to get a bit scared of that happening, I don’t want to count on either or those guys having to be major impact players

    31. Juany8

      Frank O.:
      I tried the trade machines but they don’t reflect the roster changes as of yet.
      The Howard deal is done, so it would have to involve someone else.
      Honestly, I love Tyson’s fire, but after watching his struggles last year, his absence of any real offense, I’d take Asik over him.

      He’s much better at offense than asik actually lol, but asik is an amazing defender and just dominant rebounder. Indiana doesn’t out rebound us if the only change is trading chandler for asik, guy is seriously a monster, and he’s been one of my favorite players in the league since his rookie year on the bulls. I got more excited about that signing than with Dwight Howard lol.

    32. danvt

      I think Dwight Howard might be my least favorite basketball player. Really big and strong and quick but nothing else. The darling of the efficiency crowd because he only dunks. Didn’t develop a post game really or learn to shoot free throws. He makes his teams competitive but his failings keep them from being preeminent historically. The ultimate lazy coddled superstar.

      I remember thinking the same thing in the days before statistics when I watched Artis Gilmore (yes I’m older than you).

    33. Frank O.

      Juany8: He’s much better at offense than asik actually lol, but asik is an amazing defender and just dominant rebounder. Indiana doesn’t out rebound us if the only change is trading chandler for asik, guy is seriously a monster, and he’s been one of my favorite players in the league since his rookie year on the bulls. I got more excited about that signing than with Dwight Howard lol.

      Maybe I’m wrong; It seemed to me that Asik had a jump shot. Tyson basically dunks, which I love to watch. But you’re right that Tyson’s TS and eFG is far better. It just seemed offensively that Asik had more tools. Beyond two feet, Tyson is atrocious, and if he isn’t rolling to the basket, he’s dead weight, as he was in the Pacers series.
      But Asik is the kind of guy that would work well with Melo and Amare and Bargs.
      Of course, I doubt that deal gets done. Rockets would get another disgruntled starting center that has to back up a giant dick.

    34. Nick C.

      Frank O.: In Bargs, you get a big man who can spread the floor, and clear out the paint for Melo or Amare.
      You also have a guy that would force Hibbert out of the paint.

      Why do people keep saying that Bargnani would force Hibbert out of the paint? Wouldn’t Hibbert just guard Stat/Chandler/K-Mart all of whom would/should still be in or around the paint with Bargs in and West or Paul George or Granger could guard him?

    35. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: they’re fair, like with Jon abbey or some of the writers

      Holy shit. jon fucking abbey is the model of fairness?

      I’m not saying Bargnani cannot improve as a basketball player. I’m saying that you have to be hopelessly optimistic to think that at this point in his career, he can start doing one of the most important things for a 7-footer to do on the basketball floor: rebound.

      It’s about likelihood.

      The Knicks could win 70 games this year, but it is unlikely. Amar’e could play 3000 minutes, but it is unlikely. Carmelo could turn into a top-level offensive player, but it is unlikely. Tyson Chandler could develop a three-pointer, but it is unlikely.

    36. Frank O.

      danvt:
      I think Dwight Howard might be my least favorite basketball player.Really big and strong and quick but nothing else.The darling of the efficiency crowd because he only dunks.Didn’t develop a post game really or learn to shoot free throws.He makes his teams competitive but his failings keep them from being preeminent historically.The ultimate lazy coddled superstar.

      I remember thinking the same thing in the days before statistics when I watched Artis Gilmore (yes I’m older than you).

      Howard’s mental game is soft, soft, soft. He’s a quitter.
      These past few years have been eye-opening.
      Amazing that McHale would shake up a nice team dynamic by bringing in a guy like that.

    37. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: this is almost word for word what you said about Blatche last summer, hopefully Bargnani turns out just as well.

      Yes, hopefully.

      Blatche improved from 0.90 to 1.25 PPS last season. Do you know how ridiculously unlikely this outcome is?

    38. Frank O.

      Nick C.: Why do people keep saying that Bargnani would force Hibbert out of the paint? Wouldn’t Hibbert just guard Stat/Chandler/K-Mart all of whom would/should still be in or around the paint with Bargs in and West or Paul George or Granger could guard him?

      Well, conceivably a lot of Bargs’ minutes could come at the 5 to try and create a match up problem for Hibbert. If they put West on Bargs, then Hibbert would have to guard Amare or Melo. Amare’s range isn’t as great as Melo’s, but he’s a damn good jump shooter. Either case would pull Hibbert out.
      Indiana has a lot of trouble with a shooting center. Tyson wouldn’t have to go head to head with Hibbert. Plus, it’s not like Tyson was stopping Hibbert defensively, and offensively he was a blank. Same went for kmart.

      Bargs offers a lot more flexibility.

    39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      massive: I’ve seen my fair share of interviews where Parker stated that he wants to take advantage of the educational opportunity that Duke University provides since Duke is a top institution in the country. I think he’ll stay two years so he can get a better education. He’s a known mormon, so I assume his values are different from that of the normal innercity youth. Very well spoken young man.

      His values may be different, but he could jump to the NBA and earn $10M on his rookie contract and hire a host of PhDs as tutors to get the same quality education he could at any institution in the world.

      It seems like an awful choice to risk injury (a la Nerlens Noel) for an education that most people get only because of the de facto requirements for employment in this country.

    40. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: AND NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO REBOUND, depending on who your teammates are. if you were a GM, Reggie Evans would be working on a 4/48 instead of the minimum journeyman he actually and rightfully is.

      No, he wouldn’t be. He’d be an undervalued asset in a system that has held PPG as the main indicator of a player’s value.

    41. DRed

      Juany8: Perhaps more importantly, not everyone needs to get offensive rebounds, and that’s really where bargs is piss poor as a rebounder. He’s ok at defensive rebounding, and the Knicks don’t really go for offensive rebounds much anyways, so I think the rebounding is being a little overblown, unless of course Amare and bargs end up sharing the front court. I’m starting to get a bit scared of that happening, I don’t want to count on either or those guys having to be major impact players

      Something about the Bargnani deal seems to be giving people a collective case of the stupids. Bargnani is not okay at defensive rebounding. He’s really bad at it. Per hoopdata, among PFs who played at least 30 games and 15mpg, Bargs was the second worst defensive rebounder in basketball last year. He’s a terrible rebounder, full stop. He’s the worst rebounding big man in the NBA.

    42. SeeWhyDee77

      RE: Prigs
      I’m not as down on him as most. I like him. I don’t like him as the primary backup to Felton tho. We either need a platoon or a playmaking 2 next to him. Now if Felton stayed healthy and effective Prigs as the primary backup is less of an issue. In a perfect world we would have the Felton from his 1st tour as a Knick with Prigioni givin us 15 solid minutes or so. It is imperative that Grunwald signs a Brooks or Gibson..someone who isn’t afraid to let it fly when it’s needed. I lean more towards brooks tho because he can attack the D

    43. Frank O.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Holy shit. jon fucking abbey is the model of fairness?

      I’m not saying Bargnani cannot improve as a basketball player. I’m saying that you have to be hopelessly optimistic to think that at this point in his career, he can start doing one of the most important things for a 7-footer to do on the basketball floor: rebound.

      It’s about likelihood.

      The Knicks could win 70 games this year, but it is unlikely. Amar’e could play 3000 minutes, but it is unlikely. Carmelo could turn into a top-level offensive player, but it is unlikely. Tyson Chandler could develop a three-pointer, but it is unlikely.

      Bargs is not a complete player, for sure.
      But as a part of the team dynamic, he could be a nice complement. He can play the 4 or 5 when needed. He can shoot with range, and his defensive boards aren’t bad. His O boards aren’t good, but that may have to do with the fact that he shoots from outside a lot. Whatever the reason, no one is saying he’s a good rebounder. But he’s a good shooter with size and other skills that could help this particular team.
      Most important, his salary comes off the books for a big free agent year. lol

    44. SeeWhyDee77

      The strengths Prigs brings is bein a “traditional” PG on a team with multiple scoring threats and pesky defense. This guy just never lets up. Not the type of defender who teams

    45. yellowboy90

      Frank O.:
      I tried the trade machines but they don’t reflect the roster changes as of yet.
      The Howard deal is done, so it would have to involve someone else.
      Honestly, I love Tyson’s fire, but after watching his struggles last year, his absence of any real offense, I’d take Asik over him.

      I can’t think of any team that would take Tyson. Well maybe one but I doubt they would give up any assets to Houston to make it work.

      1) Philly, would have to take back Turner and maybe Richardson. I would gladly do. Probably a S&T of Barron to make it work. However they are rebuilding so why take on Tyson?

      ATL would have been a decent choice but they signed millsap so that means they want to keep Horford at the 5.

    46. SeeWhyDee77

      The strengths Prigs brings is bein a “traditional” PG on a team with multiple scoring threats and pesky defense. This guy just never lets up. Not the type of defender who u can put in the game to lock u down..but pesky and persistent enough to disrupt the flow and get in ur head a little bit

    47. Frank O.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Yes, hopefully.

      Blatche improved from 0.90 to 1.25 PPS last season. Do you know how ridiculously unlikely this outcome is?

      not highly, but when swings like that occur it often has more to do with the complementary players involved and how a team is using the guy.
      Bargs might fit quite well in a system that includes Chandler, Amare, Melo.
      You could be right. I just think people hate on this guy because a team made a mistake in drafting him too high. He didn’t live up to those expectations, but he doesn’t come to the Knicks with those expectations and he could serve an important role backing Chandler and Amare. We’ll have to see.

    48. SeeWhyDee77

      RE: Bargnani
      I believe he can flourish playing with Melo and show more versatility on offense than he did in Toronto. The best player he played with was Bosh before now. In addition to the fact they played the same position, I think we can all agree that Melo > Bosh. I hope Bargnani can get back on track so we can see what he’s really worth. If he returns to form, it will give Melo more room to operate. Stat too.

    49. Frank O.

      SeeWhyDee77:
      RE: Bargnani
      I believe he can flourish playing with Melo and show more versatility on offense than he did in Toronto. The best player he played with was Bosh before now. In addition to the fact they played the same position, I think we can all agree that Melo > Bosh. I hope Bargnani can get back on track so we can see what he’s really worth. If he returns to form, it will give Melo more room to operate. Stat too.

      Yeah, we hadn’t even gotten into Toronto.
      He’s played barely more than 30 games in each of the past two years.
      I hope he stays healthy.
      But clearly he would not need to shoulders much of a load in NY, which may work out just fine for him.

    50. EB

      Frank O.: not highly, but when swings like that occur it often has more to do with the complementary players involved and how a team is using the guy.
      Bargs might fit quite well in a system that includes Chandler, Amare, Melo.
      You could be right. I just think people hate on this guy because a team made a mistake in drafting him too high. He didn’t live up to those expectations, but he doesn’t come to the Knicks with those expectations and he could serve an important role backing Chandler and Amare. We’ll have to see.

      We should look at outcomes as possibilities. To these possibilities we can should assign probabilities and the probability of Bargs making that sort of leap isn’t terribly. Then factor in the fact that Woodson uses quite a bit of Iso and I don’t feel too optimistic about Bargs going forward.

    51. jon abbey

      yeah, just to be clear, I am far from a Bargnani fan and don’t really see how he fits on this team.

    52. Unreason

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Yes, hopefully.

      Blatche improved from 0.90 to 1.25 PPS last season. Do you know how ridiculously unlikely this outcome is?

      I don’t but would be curious to learn. If you do, please share: E.g. of the people who play an avg of 10+ mpg and have a pps in the neighborhood of 0.90 in their prior team and switch teams,
      what does the distribution of the change in pps look like and what % change by about .3 or so?

    53. Frank O.

      EB: We should look at outcomes as possibilities. To these possibilitieswe can should assign probabilities and the probability of Bargs making that sort of leap isn’t terribly. Then factor in the fact that Woodson uses quite a bit of Iso and I don’t feel too optimistic about Bargs going forward.

      Bottom line: he’s a back up 4 or 5.
      And his salary sunsets in 2015.
      We gave up Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, and Quentin Richardson, in other words, a old guy who didn’t play, a slow guy who became an afterthought in tough games, and a fat guy who we got off his coach and was here for a smoke and gone. oh, and two second-round picks and their 2016 first-round pick that the Nuggets would have taken if it turned lottery.

      The picks sting, but with all the Knicks’ main contracts concluding in 2015, you could pick up some picks between now and then through expiring trades, or go all in big on free agents in 2015.

      This wasn’t a big deal, IMHO.

    54. Frank O.

      jon abbey:
      yeah, just to be clear, I am far from a Bargnani fan and don’t really see how he fits on this team.

      not a big fan either. but I could see him playing a decent role.
      I saw this as a salary move

    55. danvt

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Knicks could win 70 games this year, but it is unlikely. Amar’e could play 3000 minutes, but it is unlikely. Carmelo could turn into a top-level offensive player, but it is unlikely. Tyson Chandler could develop a three-pointer, but it is unlikely.

      No, those things are very likely. I think those things will happen. Because I have fan-boy luv, lol.

      The point is, people need to have career years for a team to win a championship. You also have to avoid injuries. The GM buys the groceries, the coach prepares the dish. I don’t love Bargnani, but I see why we made the move and I’m hoping his skill set fits. I’m hoping that Melo draws a double, finds him on the perimeter, and the shot goes in. I feel it could go either way. I’ve never seen you publish one slightly equivocal or nuanced projection. I can’t remember a post from you where you praise anything about the Knicks but Tyson Chandler’s field goal percentage. Just be a Spurs fan if you’re that sure.

    56. Hubert

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      I’m not saying Bargnani cannot improve as a basketball player. I’m saying that you have to be hopelessly optimistic to think that at this point in his career, he can start doing one of the most important things for a 7-footer to do on the basketball floor: rebound.

      It’s about likelihood.

      He needs to start rebounding better to improve his WS/48 and his standing in the WoW community.

      But he can be extremely valuable to the Knicks without improving on his career 15.2 DRB%.

    57. EB

      Frank O.: Bottom line: he’s a back up 4 or 5.
      And his salary sunsets in 2015.
      We gave up Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, and Quentin Richardson, in other words, a old guy who didn’t play, a slow guy who became an afterthought in tough games, and a fat guy who we got off his coach and was here for a smoke and gone. oh, and two second-round picks and their 2016 first-round pick that the Nuggets would have taken if it turned lottery.

      The picks sting, but with all the Knicks’ main contracts concluding in 2015, you could pick up some picks between now and then through expiring trades, or go all in big on free agents in 2015.

      This wasn’t a big deal, IMHO.

      Steve Novak had 13pts/36 and a .692 ts% in the playoffs. Small sample size but thats 1.3pts/36 less on 3 fewer shots than Cope. Thats ~3 fewer pts/36 than JR on HALF as many shots. Novak didn’t get shut down except in so far as Woodson shut him down.

    58. EB

      EB: Steve Novak had 13pts/36 and a .692 ts% in the playoffs. Small sample size but thats 1.3pts/36 less on 3 fewer shots than Cope. Thats ~3 fewer pts/36 than JR on HALF as many shots. Novak didn’t get shut down except in so far as Woodson shut him down.

      All numbers are from the playoffs

    59. JK47

      Over the last two years Bargnani went from being “bad at most phases of the game” to “bad at every phase of the game.”

      By far the most likely scenario with Bargnani is that he’s gonna be terrible, that everybody here is going to hate him, and that he’ll be glued to the bench by the time February rolls around. The second most likely scenario is that he’s going to be injured. Somewhere down around the eighth or ninth most likely scenario is that Bargnani has some sort of renaissance and shocks all of us.

    60. Frank O.

      EB: Steve Novak had 13pts/36 and a .692 ts% in the playoffs. Small sample size but thats 1.3pts/36 less on 3 fewer shots than Cope. Thats ~3 fewer pts/36 than JR on HALF as many shots. Novak didn’t get shut down except in so far as Woodson shut him down.

      He was getting benched because he wasn’t getting enough shots to justify his porous D.

    61. danvt

      JK47: Somewhere down around the eighth or ninth most likely scenario is that Bargnani has some sort of renaissance and shocks all of us.

      I think that comment comes back to bite you if we revisit it this fall and winter. Or maybe you’re right. See that, many possibilities exist. All we can do as fan-boys is analyze why a move was made. I don’t think it was as a reaction to KG/ Pierce because as PR it’s clearly a catastrophe judging from the reaction here. It was a basketball move and it was made to address the concerns from last season that we all share.

      Maybe as a basketball move it doesn’t work and we win the championship anyway. Maybe it doesn’t work and it gets us just enough leverage to land Marc Gasol in the 2015 reload. Maybe Marc Gasol, by that time is irredeemably bad. My only thesis is that nothing is a forgone conclusion at this point.

      Now, if they trade Shumpert I may decide it’s not worth my time but I won’t sit at my computer and spew strident negativity. I don’t follow the Yankees this year but it’s not because of injuries. It’s because I don’t like the way they’ve been playing the game. I’ll always check the score and hope for the best but it’s just not rewarding. If that’s your conclusion on NYK, cool. Then please conclude your commentary. Otherwise add something that someone around here wants to read.

    62. danvt

      danvt: Then please conclude your commentary. Otherwise add something that someone around here wants to read.

      That’s not really aimed at you JK47. More at Jowles. You, I think have been fairly even handed. I am tired of reading Bargs trashings though considering the parameters of the deal.

    63. Frank O.

      I do dislike Dolan, and I won’t use Comcast ever again.
      But I find each year a reason to cheer for the Knicks.
      This coming year, my main reason for watching the Knicks is to see Amare have a great, and healthy, year.
      He’s easy to cheer for, works his ass off, and is as earnest a fellow as there is in the game. He’s made mistakes, but you can see him trying to get better each year.
      Second, I think this will be a break out year for Shump. I want that kid to succeed.
      Third, I hope Tyson can rebound from last year and have a healthy SMASH year.
      Last, I will watch with great interest Amare and Melo playing together. I think Amare’s game has expanded enough and Melo’s mind has matured enough that they could become a very powerful one-two punch.

      I confess I feel over the JR show.

    64. cgreene

      DRed: Something about the Bargnani deal seems to be giving people a collective case of the stupids.Bargnani is not okay at defensive rebounding.He’s really bad at it.Per hoopdata,among PFs who played at least 30 games and 15mpg, Bargs was the second worst defensive rebounder in basketball last year.He’s a terrible rebounder, full stop.He’s the worst rebounding big man in the NBA.

      his last year was a 30% drop from the year prior and a 20% drop off his career rate. maybe just maybe he was frickin hurt!!!

    65. cgreene

      JK47:
      Over the last two years Bargnani went from being “bad at most phases of the game” to “bad at every phase of the game.”

      By far the most likely scenario with Bargnani is that he’s gonna be terrible, that everybody here is going to hate him, and that he’ll be glued to the bench by the time February rolls around.The second most likely scenario is that he’s going to be injured.Somewhere down around the eighth or ninth most likely scenario is that Bargnani has some sort of renaissance and shocks all of us.

      the most likely scenario is that you have no idea what the most likely scenario will be. he has played well at times in his career and at others he has been shit. he has played at a high usg and a medium usg. he has been hurt and been healthy. etc etc

    66. RicanKnick

      Everybody here talking about rebounding…like Steve Freaking Novak was Dennis Rodman…!!! DANG!!! All this crying is annoying…

    67. Nick C.

      I appreciate your take, but that makes you a frontrunner fan. Then again I am a Met/Jet fan so if I checked out when teams sucked.

      danvt: I think that comment comes back to bite you if we revisit it this fall and winter.Or maybe you’re right.See that, many possibilities exist.All we can do as fan-boys is analyze why a move was made.I don’t think it was as a reaction to KG/ Pierce because as PR it’s clearly a catastrophe judging from the reaction here.It was a basketball move and it was made to address the concerns from last season that we all share.

      Maybe as a basketball move it doesn’t work and we win the championship anyway.Maybe it doesn’t work and it gets us just enough leverage to land Marc Gasol in the 2015 reload.Maybe Marc Gasol, by that time is irredeemably bad.My only thesis is that nothing is a forgone conclusion at this point.

      Now, if they trade Shumpert I may decide it’s not worth my time but I won’t sit at my computer and spew strident negativity.I don’t follow the Yankees this year but it’s not because of injuries.It’s because I don’t like the way they’ve been playing the game.I’ll always check the score and hope for the best but it’s just not rewarding.If that’s your conclusion on NYK, cool.Then please conclude your commentary.Otherwise add something that someone around here wants to read.

    68. hoolahoop

      danvt:
      For the life of me I can’t see why some people continue to follow NYK.If I’m gonna pay for league pass (I live out of market) I’m going to continue to believe in the direction of the franchise.If I’m positive they just traded for the worst player in the NBA or that Woodson is a crappy coach or that they’re a lock to win 45 games then I’m not going to waste my time.

      Until then I’ll make optimistic interpretations of front office moves and hope for career years for the players once they hit the court.

      Then, you’re just a fanboy or fair weather fan.
      Just because someone disagrees with how their favorite team is currently managed, doesn’t mean they should just pick another team to route for.
      Don’t tell other people how to be fans.

    69. thenamestsam

      danvt:
      I think Dwight Howard might be my least favorite basketball player.Really big and strong and quick but nothing else.The darling of the efficiency crowd because he only dunks.Didn’t develop a post game really or learn to shoot free throws.He makes his teams competitive but his failings keep them from being preeminent historically.The ultimate lazy coddled superstar.

      I remember thinking the same thing in the days before statistics when I watched Artis Gilmore (yes I’m older than you).

      I’m sorry, but the no post moves thing is foolish. You can’t build a championship contending offense around a post-player with no post moves and Orlando was a championship contender with an offense that was completely built around Howard’s skills. His moves don’t look pretty because he’s much more of a power type athlete than a coordination one but he has moves and they’re effective. If it was possible to be the level of offensive player that Dwight is (when healthy) based solely on athleticism we’d be watching Tyson pour in an efficient 20+ a night while constantly facing double teams. But it isn’t, and we aren’t.

      Frank O.: Howard’s mental game is soft, soft, soft. He’s a quitter.
      These past few years have been eye-opening.
      Amazing that McHale would shake up a nice team dynamic by bringing in a guy like that.

      A soft mental game just like Pau when he couldn’t get out of the first round, Dirk when he was a perennial playoff disappointment and Lebron when he was a choke artist. It’s amazing that someone would gamble on talent and the possibility that mental makeup comments are hacky ex-post rationalizations. That never works out.

    70. danvt

      Nice post, Frank O. Way to articulate reasons to watch as opposed to reasons to turn off the set. Maybe no Championship until Dolan sells. Maybe we should have saved the $ and not signed Amar’e when LBJ chose MIA. Maybe we should have not sold the farm for Melo, but, it’s water under the bridge and another 50 win season and a chance in the playoffs is the only thing a fan can reasonably expect. I’m sure SAS fans are happy despite the 2nd place finish as are Memhis fans being in the top 4.

      You just want to have a chance, feel that your chances are improving and not get stuck with players who aren’t cutting it long term.

      Frank O.:
      I do dislike Dolan, and I won’t use Comcast ever again.
      But I find each year a reason to cheer for the Knicks.
      This coming year, my main reason for watching the Knicks is to see Amare have a great, and healthy, year.
      He’s easy to cheer for, works his ass off, and is as earnest a fellow as there is in the game. He’s made mistakes, but you can see him trying to get better each year.
      Second, I think this will be a break out year for Shump. I want that kid to succeed.
      Third, I hope Tyson can rebound from last year and have a healthy SMASH year.
      Last, I will watch with great interest Amare and Melo playing together. I think Amare’s game has expanded enough and Melo’s mind has matured enough that they could become a very powerful one-two punch.

      I confess I feel over the JR show.

    71. Juany8

      Frank O.: Maybe I’m wrong; It seemed to me that Asik had a jump shot. Tyson basically dunks, which I love to watch. But you’re right that Tyson’s TS and eFG is far better. It just seemed offensively that Asik had more tools. Beyond two feet, Tyson is atrocious, and if he isn’t rolling to the basket, he’s dead weight, as he was in the Pacers series.
      But Asik is the kind of guy that would work well with Melo and Amare and Bargs.
      Of course, I doubt that deal gets done. Rockets would get another disgruntled starting center that has to back up a giant dick.

      Problem is frank o, asik is terrible outside of the paint AND inside the paint. I like the guy, but it’s really fucking frustrating to watch him try to lay it up weakly when he’s like a foot from the basket. It doesn’t matter if you’re more versatile if you’re bad at everything lol.

      Also about Bargs and rebounding, for his career, bargs has a higher career defensive rebound rate than Melo, Novak, and copeland. Since those are the guys he would be replacing at the 4, it’s really hard to see how he’s going to destroy the Knicks’ rebounding. Yes last year he was crap, but so was chandler in the playoffs, if we’re going to count injury plagued stats then a lot of players are going to look terrible.

    72. DRed

      cgreene: the most likely scenario is that you have no idea what the most likely scenario will be.he has played well at times in his career and at others he has been shit.he has played at a high usg and a medium usg.he has been hurt and been healthy.etc etc

      Bargs has never played well. He’s had seasons where he scored well enough to be merely a bad basketball player instead of the worst starter in the NBA. That’s pretty much his upside. Novak was a one trick pony, but he did his trick really well. Bargnani does nothing well, except maybe scoring efficiently on 2 or 3 pick and pop possessions a game.

    73. DCrockett17

      Juany8: He’s ok at defensive rebounding, and the Knicks don’t really go for offensive rebounds much anyways, so I think the rebounding is being a little overblown, unless of course Amare and bargs end up sharing the front court. I’m starting to get a bit scared of that happening, I don’t want to count on either or those guys having to be major impact players

      I’m not a fan of the trade, and even I don’t think it’s as catastrophic as some have made it out to be. (I’m just pissed about the actual horse-trading and less so the player.)

      I haven’t seen a lot of Bargnani, so I have to look at the numbers. I can’t wait to see what he does in NY. He’ll be an interesting mini-referendum on using hoops stats. The things that he’s supposed to be so good at, ball-handling and passing, just don’t show up numerically. He’s always been a pretty high usage, low-assist, high-turnover player. It’ll be intriguing to see to what extent a completely new context changes that.

      You are completely correct about the rebounding though. On defense he’s not a liability really at all. He’s not elite, but he’ll be the best or 2nd best def. rebounder in almost any lineup (depending on who else we sign).

    74. Juany8

      Also want to point out the spurs situation with Boris diaw, who looked like a fat waste of space on the bobcats and then suddenly was playing serious minutes in the finals. All his stats looked terrible for years too, it’s not just Andrey Blatche who this has happened to recently. And guess what? Boris diaw had a lower defensive rebound rate that bargs just this year. Yea the year bargs played 30 games and looked like a joke. Can’t we all agree to at least see how it goes before proclaiming doom and gloom?

    75. hoolahoop

      Bargnani basically has one strong move with two options. He either shoots the 3, or he fakes the 3 and goes strong to the hoop. For him to be effective going to the hoop, there needs to be space inside. It’s already clogged in there for Amare with TC camped underneath.
      Although I hope I’m wrong, I don’t think Woodson will figure out schemes and spacing for this team to work. For starters, this offense is too Melocentric. Until this team figures out ball movement, spacing, and 48 minutes of tenacious defense, it’s going to be first and second round departures every year. The knicks showed glimpses of this last season. Those were the nights they were able to beat anybody.

    76. ess-dog

      I have to agree with THCJ in that having a 7 footer that can’t rebound is not good.

      Perhaps there will be a chance to put Bargs on the floor with Melo as more of a small forward. It makes sense with his ability to pick and pop, plus it leaves Melo free to post up and rebound all he wants.

      Can Bargs guard 3s? Not really sure, but he has the wingspan to make life hard for 3s who drive the paint.

      Also, the “draw Hibbert out of the paint” idea doesn’t seem to have a ton of credence. Maybe if we get Brand, a lineup with Amare or Brand and Bargs as the bigs could make for an interesting attack against Hibbert (in limited minutes.)

      I would feel a lot better about the move if I had more faith in Woody’s coaching prowess.

    77. cgreene

      DRed: Bargs has never played well.He’s had seasons where he scored well enough to be merely a bad basketball player instead of the worst starter in the NBA.That’s pretty much his upside. Novak was a one trick pony, but he did his trick really well.Bargnani does nothing well, except maybe scoring efficiently on 2 or 3 pick and pop possessions a game.

      because players cant get better?

    78. Juany8

      DRed: Bargs has never played well.He’s had seasons where he scored well enough to be merely a bad basketball player instead of the worst starter in the NBA.That’s pretty much his upside. Novak was a one trick pony, but he did his trick really well.Bargnani does nothing well, except maybe scoring efficiently on 2 or 3 pick and pop possessions a game.

      DRed, those 2 or 3 pick and pops were more than Novak could hope for most games. I really don’t see how you can call someone who would habitually score 0 points a good offensive player. it’s ridiculous to look at efficiency exclusively when Novak causes problems by NOT being able to shoot or rotate the ball well. It’s not registered in the box score, but it has a demonstrable negative impact on the outcome of the game. Novak was not a good player last year in any way, when the only thing you can do is shoot 3’s then you better be putting in a good volume at a dominant rate, not a small volume at a good rate. So bargs might not make the same percentage as Novak, but he can still help by being better at literally everything else.

      It is really not that far fetched to think bargs will be better than Steve Novak, and admitting as much doesn’t mean you suddenly think bargs is an awesome starter, but it can make him an acceptable bench option.

    79. DRed

      cgreene: because players cant get better?

      Of course he can get better. I’ve said this ad nauseum. There are two problems. One, Bargnani has to get a lot better to just be an average player. Two, players rarely get much better in their late 20s.

    80. hoolahoop

      I’m surprised more people on this forum are not upset to see Novack traded for AB, not to mention the draft picks. Novack is among the best 3 pointer shooters in league, and great at spacing the floor and dishing out to. Bargnani may be a better player overall, but not for what he’s most useful for on this team- opening up the floor and hitting the 3.

    81. Hubert

      Juany8:
      Also about Bargs and rebounding, for his career, bargs has a higher career defensive rebound rate than Melo, Novak, and copeland. Since those are the guys he would be replacing at the 4, it’s really hard to see how he’s going to destroy the Knicks’ rebounding. Yes last year he was crap, but so was chandler in the playoffs, if we’re going to count injury plagued stats then a lot of players are going to look terrible.

      The problem is going to be replacing Kidd and his ridiculous 16.2 DRB% from last year. Someone is going to have to pick up the slack.

      But our rebounding next year will probably get better assuming we go, as I expect we will, with Melo, Amar’e, Bargnani rotating among the 2 forward spots, and Chandler operating with an effective backup like Brand or Martin.

      That’s going to move Shumpert and Smith’s good rebounding numbers to the 2 instead of the 3, which will make up for the loss of Kidd’s rebounding.

      I really like the look of this team so far, provided we get a decent backup center:

      F Stoudemire (Bargnani)
      F Anthony (Barngani)
      C Chandler (Brand and/or Martin, hopefully)
      G Felton (Prigioni)
      G Shumpert (Smith)

      Hardaway Jr and Leslie take up two developmental spots, and I’m sure GG will find adequate depth signings like he always does to fill out the last spots.

      That’s a nice (albeit different) looking team, and it’s hard for me to see how AB’s poor rebounding is going to be it’s undoing.

      JR Smith insisting on jacking up 25 shots a game, on the other hand? That could be a problem.

      But if you’re looking to finally blend Amar’e, Melo, and Chandler together, I think we’re on the right path.

    82. alsep73

      https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/354308106085335042

      Not that we were expecting a holdout or anything, but Knicks signed Tim Hardaway Jr. to a standard slot rookie deal today, and officially announced the CJ Leslie signing.

      On the latter, I asked a sportswriter friend from North Carolina about Leslie, and he was unimpressed. Said that even if Woodson could get Leslie’s motor running properly, he’s not sure any of his individual skills (as opposed to raw athleticism) are NBA-worthy. We’ll see.

    83. alsep73

      Speaking of tall guys with lots of athleticism but questionable application of it, Hahn and others are tweeting that Jeremy Tyler will also be on our summer league team. Two years ago, I would’ve been super excited about this. Now, less so. But bodies are bodies, and Grunwald has definitely shown a gift — an essential one, given our lack of draft picks and tradeable assets — for making the right scrap heap pick-ups.

    84. d-mar

      I just don’t think rebounding is as big a deal as people make it out to be. Last season, San Antonio and Miami were 19th and 20th in rebounding differential, while Indiana was 1st. In the playoffs, SA and Miami were 9th and 11th and Indy was still 1st (out of the 16 playoff teams)

      So it’s obviously a strength for the Pacers (and they sure used it against us) but it didn’t seem to hurt the two NBA finalists very much.

    85. nicos

      Hubert: The problem is going to be replacing Kidd and his ridiculous 16.2 DRB% from last year.Someone is going to have to pick up the slack.

      But our rebounding next year will probably get better assuming we go, as I expect we will, with Melo, Amar’e, Bargnani rotating among the 2 forward spots, and Chandler operating with an effective backup like Brand or Martin.

      That’s going to move Shumpert and Smith’s good rebounding numbers to the 2 instead of the 3, which will make up for the loss of Kidd’s rebounding.

      Shump’s rebound rate in the playoffs was 12.7 (including a team leading 20.6 on the defensive boards). While it’s very doubtful he puts up those kind of numbers across the regular season they’re pretty encouraging- I remember him saying that he realized during the playoffs that he had been leaving too many many rebounding opportunities on the table and needed to get on the glass more. If that attitude carries over into the regular season I think he stands a pretty good chance of replacing Kidd’s numbers if not bettering them.

    86. Juany8

      d-mar:
      I just don’t think rebounding is as big a deal as people make it out to be. Last season, San Antonio and Miami were 19th and 20th in rebounding differential, while Indiana was 1st. In the playoffs, SA and Miami were 9th and 11th and Indy was still 1st (out of the 16 playoff teams)

      So it’s obviously a strength for the Pacers (and they sure used it against us) but it didn’t seem to hurt the two NBA finalists very much.

      Many very successful teams have purposely given up on offensive rebounding to improve their defense. It makes rating players linearly on their total rebounding numbers really stupid. If your coach is telling you to run back on D and you’re crashing the boards to boost your numbers, you are not helping your team, no matter what WP says. You will note that Miami and San Antonio were fine in defensive rebounding, it’s the offensive rebounds they don’t care to get. Hard to penalize them for it considering their incredible success, or are people really going to sit here and argue that the best teams in the league should change up a fundemental part of the strategy to get better?

    87. nicos

      alsep73:
      Speaking of tall guys with lots of athleticism but questionable application of it, Hahn and others are tweeting that Jeremy Tyler will also be on our summer league team. Two years ago, I would’ve been super excited about this. Now, less so. But bodies are bodies, and Grunwald has definitely shown a gift — an essential one, given our lack of draft picks and tradeable assets — for making the right scrap heap pick-ups.

      Yeah he’s certainly worth looking at in the summer league- he just turned 22 and I still think there’s a possibility he could wind up a decent bench guy if he just concentrates on defense and rebounding. Chances are certainly slim but I’d rather see the summer league stuffed with those kinds of guys than guys who you know at best are going to be the 15th guy wearing a suit on the bench.

    88. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Many very successful teams have purposely given up on offensive rebounding to improve their defense. It makes rating players linearly on their total rebounding numbers really stupid. If your coach is telling you to run back on D and you’re crashing the boards to boost your numbers, you are not helping your team, no matter what WP says. You will note that Miami and San Antonio were fine in defensive rebounding, it’s the offensive rebounds they don’t care to get. Hard to penalize them for it considering their incredible success, or are people really going to sit here and argue that the best teams in the league should change up a fundemental part of the strategy to get better?

      http://people.csail.mit.edu/balakg/To%20Crash%20or%20Not%20To%20Crash%20A%20quantitative%20look%20at%20the%20relationship%20between%20offensive%20rebounding%20and%20transition%20defense%20in%20the%20NBA.pdf

    89. Hubert

      nicos: Shump’s rebound rate in the playoffs was 12.7 (including a team leading 20.6 on the defensive boards).

      Wow!

      I’m very optimistic he takes a major step forward next year and I can already predict the most frustrating aspect of the 2013-14 season:

      Mike Woodson stubbornly sticking with JR jacking shots off ISO’s while Shumpert is on the bench.

    90. Frank

      Re: the offensive rebounding – obviously it’s a good thing if you get the rebound, but it’s only 1 of the ways to (re)gain possession. For example you can “gain” possessions by never turning the ball over. Or by playing great defense (ie. low eFG-against or turning the other team over). And your personnel will determine which of those ways is best. The Spurs (and Celtics) made the call that they would give up the opportunity to gain possessions on the offensive glass by minimizing their eFG-against. The Spurs also NEVER foul. Many ways to skin a cat.

      From that study that THCJ quoted:

      Admittedly this analysis does not account for the personnel on a team. For example, some teams may not have two
      good rebounders. In such a case sending two players to crash and one player to retreat might not have the same
      expected gain as it does when we consider aggregate data from all teams. This is an opportunity for further analysis.

      Really interesting summer league team btw. At least it’s not like last year’s, which felt like every ex-player’s no-shot-at-NBA child was on that team.

    91. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://people.csail.mit.edu/balakg/To%20Crash%20or%20Not%20To%20Crash%20A%20quantitative%20look%20at%20the%20relationship%20between%20offensive%20rebounding%20and%20transition%20defense%20in%20the%20NBA.pdf

      Again, while there MAY be some evidence that crashing the glass is a better strategy than sprinting back on defense in general, it sure as hell doesn’t mean that it applies to every team in the league. It’s like WP, broadly useful but it falls apart when you try to argue as if it’s a universal truth.
      And this sentence at the end:
      “The generalizability of these conclusions is limited by the data. For some teams we lacked data. Moreover, there are many factors we have yet to consider, e.g. the positioning of the defensive players, the game situation and especially the personnel on the floor.” suggests there’s little reason to draw that conclusion anyway.

    92. Vinny L.

      Hubert Says:

      The annoying thing about the Prigioni signing is that the CBA is so stupid we had to blow over half our mini-MLE just to give slightly more than the vet’s minimum.

    93. Hubert

      Vinny L.:
      Hubert Says:

      The annoying thing about the Prigioni signing is that the CBA is so stupid we had to blow over half our mini-MLE just to give slightly more than the vet’s minimum.

      Dude. Don’t even.

      I was just commenting on how hard the CBA makes it to bring back your own players.

      You’re on your own.

    94. Vinny L.

      Hubert

      Dude. Step away from the keyboard a minute. And relax LOL!

      I’m not looking for blog allies LOL!

      I just thought the comment was thought provoking and interesting that no one wants to respond. Maybe deep down they know its right but don’t want to admit it

    95. Unreason

      I want Bargnani to keep significant miles off of Amare’s knees. To me, that’s likely to be his most valuable contribution. Regardless of who fills out the rest of the roster, to do that I suspect he’ll have to prove to Woodson that his offensive value on a secondary unit with JR outweighs his weak D and rebounding. Since those weakness seem significant, the decision by Woodson re how long to let Barnani try to prove himself will be interesting and important IMO.

      Does anyone know why Camby barely played when healthy? Was it just that he sucked or did not earn it with attitude, hustle, willingness to shake of minor injury, etc.? Knowing this might suggest some factors that will affect the length of Bargnani’s opportunity to prove himself.

    96. alsep73

      Zwerling offers some clarification on the CJ Leslie contract: guaranteed til January 7, whether he’s still on the roster or not. If he’s on the roster past that date, it’s guaranteed for the rest of the season. So they definitely see something in the kid.

    97. cgreene

      I don’t think Bargs and Amare will see that much time together. If they do then that’s a coaching flaw. Bargs should be used to keep Amare’s minutes down and also at the 3 a little if the D matchup isn’t really bad for us.

    98. alsep73

      If we play Bargs at the 3 with Melo at the 4, though, aren’t we just inviting opposing defenses to just put their small forward on Melo and their power forward on Bargs, thus negating the advantage we get from the Melo at the 4 lineup? Feels like best lineup to play those two together in sees Bargnani at center with Melo and 3 guards (preferably our 3 best rebounding guards), but that could be really ugly in terms of defending penetration.

      No matter what, Woodson is going to have to be really creative in how he uses Bargs. At times this past season, he proved himself to be far more creative (Felton/Prigs backcourt, Melo at the 4) than I’d have ever given him credit for. But at other times, he can be really stubborn and traditionalist.

    99. Frank

      I think we’ll see a mix of Melo at the 3 and 4 this year. His plan to work out the Hakeem makes it feel like he will spend more time in the post this year — I assume the plan isn’t for him to bang against David West and Taj Gibson down there. Woody will have a mix of lineups he can use with Melo at 3 with Bargs/Amare + Chandler, Melo at the 4 with the 2 PG lineup, or some combination.

    100. Z-man

      Bargnani, Blatche and Diaw all have two thing in common: good size and very solid all-around offensive fundamentals.

      Players like Novak and Ronnie Brewer have nowhere to go on offense so they need a perfect role to fill to be successful. Bargnani, Blatche and Diaw also need good situations, but have more than one way to be effective.

    101. nicos

      alsep73:
      https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/354308106085335042

      Not that we were expecting a holdout or anything, but Knicks signed Tim Hardaway Jr. to a standard slot rookie deal today, and officially announced the CJ Leslie signing.

      On the latter, I asked a sportswriter friend from North Carolina about Leslie, and he was unimpressed. Said that even if Woodson could get Leslie’s motor running properly, he’s not sure any of his individual skills (as opposed to raw athleticism) are NBA-worthy. We’ll see.

      In terms of size and athleticism he’s pretty similar to Paul George (needs to get stronger but perhaps a little quicker). If Woodson can get him motivated you’d think that he could at least turn into a pretty good situational wing defender. Of course there’s no guarantee Woodson can get him to play hard consistently and even if he does that his fundamentals and grasp of team defense will be good enough to get him onto the court even in a limited role but there’s a chance. And given that he’s not completely devoid of offensive skills there’s a chance he could turn into a player. I’d say there’s a 30% chance he’s a complete bust, 30% chance he makes the roster but never plays, 20% he’s a situational guy who plays in blowouts and gets the occasional 5-10 minutes depending on match ups, 10% chance he’s a rotation guy, 10% chance he turns into a starter in the future.

    102. danvt

      hoolahoop: Don’t tell other people how to be fans.

      I don’t think I’m telling anyone how to be a fan. I’m just saying, if you feel it’s a slam dunk that Bargs makes the team nine games worse. If your stats tell you to give up hope. Then just go ahead and give up hope. Why torture yourself?

    103. Vinny L.

      Any scoring PF that plays with Melo upsets the chemistry of the team. No Amare and no Bargs at the 4 position. That’s all Melo.

    104. danvt

      Nick C.: I appreciate your take, but that makes you a frontrunner fan. Then again I am a Met/Jet fan so if I checked out when teams sucked.

      How is being a Knick fan being a frontrunner? I just found the Yankees frustrating and I’m not paying as much attention. I’m not rooting for the Reds though. I actually like Lyle Overbay better than Mark Texiera. I can’t understand a hitter that refuses to go the opposite way. Maybe Cock Jowels can’t understand why we traded for Bargnani. Maybe he should do something else. I’ll be rooting for Bargnani and he was the worst rebounder for a seven footer in the history of the world. How does that make me a frontrunner?

    105. danvt

      thenamestsam: Orlando was a championship contender with an offense that was completely built around Howard’s skills.

      Yeah, very good but not great. As I recall it was a three point shooting offense that got to a final and lost. Will he ever win one?

    106. thenamestsam

      danvt: How is being a Knick fan being a frontrunner?I just found the Yankees frustrating and I’m not paying as much attention.I’m not rooting for the Reds though.I actually like Lyle Overbay better than Mark Texiera.I can’t understand a hitter that refuses to go the opposite way.Maybe Cock Jowels can’t understand why we traded for Bargnani.Maybe he should do something else.I’ll be rooting for Bargnani and he was the worst rebounder for a seven footer in the history of the world.How does that make me a frontrunner?

      If you only watch/follow your teams when they’re good or you’re happy with them – that’s basically the definition of a frontrunner fan. Especially if you then switch to rooting for a different team.

      Personally I don’t have a problem with that. We all watch sports for fun I would hope. There is no other benefit. If it’s not fun you really shouldn’t do it. If it makes you miserable then you are making yourself miserable for something which has entertainment as its sole purpose. Something has gone wrong there. I also personally find it impossible to switch teams and find it easy to find things to enjoy in even the bleakest Knicks seasons. So I’m not a frontrunner, but I don’t hate them either. Frontrun if that’s the way you like to watch sports. But realize that others will judge you for it.

    107. danvt

      He’s have a better chance if he made free throws. And how about those post moves compared to an in his prime Hakeem? He patterned his game on Shaq. All power, no finesse. He’s good. I’m just not a fan.

    108. thenamestsam

      danvt: Yeah, very good but not great.As I recall it was a three point shooting offense that got to a final and lost.Will he ever win one?

      Mirror, mirror, on the wall, what is the tiredest argument of them all? Dirk, Lebron, Jordan, Hakeem. What do these guys have in common besides being all-time greats who won championships? All of them weren’t winners, right up until the day they were. As someone who talks about how long he has been around I think you’d realize history is littered with such players.

      Will Dwight Howard win a championship in his career? I have no idea and neither do you. But I know that he’s one of the 15-20 best players in the league, and was unanimously in the top 3 as recently as about a year and a half ago. He’s young enough to regain that form and if he does you’re a hell of a lot closer to a title with him on your team than without him.

    109. danvt

      thenamestsam: If you only watch/follow your teams when they’re good or you’re happy with them – that’s basically the definition of a frontrunner fan. Especially if you then switch to rooting for a different team.

      OK you’re not paying attention. I’m rooting for Bargnani. I rooted for Eddy Curry and defended him here. I’m not switching teams in MLB. I’m basically spending my vacation as a basketball writer here. I’m just not that passionate about NY Yanks right now. But it’s based on being pissed off at their approach, not the results. If others are pissed off at the Knicks approach and want to make it a forgone conclusion that they’ll be bad that’s ok. I’m not mad at criticism either. I tried to post about others jumping off the bandwagon.

    110. Hubert

      When it came down to it, teams guarded Melo w their best defender regardless of whether we had him at 3 or 4. And it didn’t hurt them elsewhere bc they were able to hide a defender on Kidd’s corpse or Shumpert. At least Shump made him pay sometimes.

      Having 5 threats on the floor is a bigger deal than what position he is technically playing.

    111. thenamestsam

      danvt: OK you’re not paying attention.I’m rooting for Bargnani.I rooted for Eddy Curry and defended him here.I’m not switching teams in MLB.I’m basically spending my vacation as a basketball writer here.I’m just not that passionate about NY Yanks right now.But it’s based on being pissed off at their approach, not the results.If others are pissed off at the Knicks approach and want to make it a forgone conclusion that they’ll be bad that’s ok.I’m not mad at criticism either.I tried to post about others jumping off the bandwagon.

      You made posts wondering why fans would continue following the team if they were pessimistic about it and then specifically stated both that you’re not watching the Yankees because they don’t play how you like and that if you didn’t like the direction of the Knicks you’d stop watching them as well. Then you posted wondering how anyone would think you were a frontrunner. I was just letting you know. Like I said, I don’t care either way. If what you’re doing makes you happy, do that. And the same goes for the pessimists.

    112. danvt

      There’s a lot of ways to be a fan. You can be interested and hopeful or you can be totally gonzo and post about a winter sport on a blog in the summer. I chose the former for NYY and the latter for NYK. I just see some of the reaction to Bargnani and think the former might be a better model for those folks. Not too difficult to understand so I’m going to stop explaining if you don’t see it yet. But, yes, I watched Walt Frazier and Ed Sherrod, both in their time. I bought the Daily News and the Post and the Times everyday to read as much as I can about NYK before there was the internet. I computed Bernard King’s scoring average after every game. I survived Isaiah. I’m no front runner.

      thenamestsam: You made posts wondering why fans would continue following the team if they were pessimistic about it and then specifically stated both that you’re not watching the Yankees because they don’t play how you like and that if you didn’t like the direction of the Knicks you’d stop watching them as well. Then you posted wondering how anyone would think you were a frontrunner. I was just letting you know. Like I said, I don’t care either way. If what you’re doing makes you happy, do that. And the same goes for the pessimists.

    113. lavor postell

      Are we seriously still debating the merits of trading for Bargnani? Look if we gave up Shumpert or moved mountains to get the guy while destroying our our long term future I’d understand the outpouring of thoughts. This was not Isiah trading Ariza for Francis when we already had “Starbury”, which was like adding fuel to the fire, minus that one game winning three he hit against Orlando.

      I personally think Bargnani will marginally improve us if Woodson uses him properly and never has a frontcourt of Bargs-STAT on the floor. I might be completely wrong, but either way I’m not too concerned about the future implications of this deal. Maybe my mind is numbed by the amount of horrific trades we have made in the past.

    114. lavor postell

      Haha just saw this comment over on P&T and had to post it here.

      “I wish Raymond Felton would play summer league

      Felton, Chalmers, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Nate are the self important point guard quintet. Summer league would be perfect for them to go at each other with no restraints for the title of most important self important middling point guard.”

      Hahaha really couldn’t agree more

    115. Brian Cronin

      Felton, Chalmers, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Nate are the self important point guard quintet. Summer league would be perfect for them to go at each other with no restraints for the title of most important self important middling point guard.”

      Hahaha really couldn’t agree more

      While I don’t disagree in general, note that Nate played Summer League for his first three seasons and a little bit in his fourth season, so I don’t think it would do much good for those guys. Heck, I think the Summer League ended up doing harm to Nate, as it just reaffirmed his ego, as he got to score at will and he won MVP.

    116. ess-dog

      alsep73:
      If we play Bargs at the 3 with Melo at the 4, though, aren’t we just inviting opposing defenses to just put their small forward on Melo and their power forward on Bargs, thus negating the advantage we get from the Melo at the 4 lineup?

      It’s less about position title than about placement on the floor. If say, Chicago does what you say, then Carlos Boozer has to come out and defend Bargs at the three point line while Melo is free to post up Deng. It also makes the pick and pop with Prig that much more of a mismatch. We could create some interesting mismatches on offense. Defense is another matter…

    117. lavor postell

      Don’t know if anybody saw this earlier, but Ian Begley tweeted earlier that the Knicks can give Melo a five year contract for up to $129 million. The Knicks have done a lot of stupid shit in my lifetime, but this would have to take the cake if it happens. I’m really hoping Melo will save us from Dolan’s stupidity and voluntarily take a pay cut so we can put more pieces around him and Chandler if he can return to form.

    118. Brian Cronin

      Don’t know if anybody saw this earlier, but Ian Begley tweeted earlier that the Knicks can give Melo a five year contract for up to $129 million. The Knicks have done a lot of stupid shit in my lifetime, but this would have to take the cake if it happens. I’m really hoping Melo will save us from Dolan’s stupidity and voluntarily take a pay cut so we can put more pieces around him and Chandler if he can return to form.

      I certainly imagine that Melo will not push for the absolute max. How much of a pay cut he will take will be fascinating.

    119. SeeWhyDee77

      If Bargnani can play like a 7 foot PF instead of a 7 foot SF..it’s all good. I don’t need to see him grab 10 boards a game..that’s obviously not his game lol. But if he gets 25-30 mpg as a swing 4/5, I’m happy if he can get at least 7. Look, Stat has never been a great rebounder, but when he was healthy and killin opponents there was never a lot of complaint about his rebounding. That’s probably a bad comparison. I gues what I’m tryina say is as long as he’s effective in his role, then there’s not a whole lot to complain about. Now if Woodson gives him a Novak role then we all should expect more. If he starts and doesn’t give us at least 16 and 7 with a block per..then we absolutely should complain. I think his role should be backing up the 4 and 5. If most his efforts are against backups..then he should kill it especially with the attention JR, Stat, and Melo should command. We shouldn’t kill this guy or the trade until he falls short. For better or for worse, he is on the team..so can we please give him at least until January before we start doubting him? The bigger worry should be how Woodson coaches this bunch..

    120. nicos

      Brian Cronin: As Nicos noted, I think Howard is just blocking out how often he ended up with post-ups because of his general disinterest in playing D’Antoni’s style. And really, I don’t even care if he just hates it so much that he doesn’t want to play it, that’s fine with me. I just don’t like how he keeps…I don’t want to say “lying” because I don’t think it is intentional but…uhm…”misleading,” perhaps? Misleading people (including himself) about his role in D’Antoni’s offense.

      The problem wasn’t really D’A’s system- between Nash’s injuries and Kobe’s (admittedly effective) hero ball they barely ran it. It just seemed to me that Howard took it as a personal affront that every set didn’t start with him in the low block. I think he got spoiled in Orlando where that was pretty much the case. If he and Harden are going to mesh he’s going to have to be more willing to play the high screen and roll- if he left L.A. Because he didn’t like a system that emphasizes the high screen and roll why go to Houston to play with a team whose best player does little but run the high screen and roll?

    121. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, that’s what I was complaining about the other week. How in the world does he think he’ll be happy playing with Harden if he hated playing with Kobe?

    122. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, that’s what I was complaining about the other week. How in the world does he think he’ll be happy playing with Harden if he hated playing with Kobe?

      Kobe is a Jordan-level asshole. The usage may be similar, but…

      “Within the Los Angeles Lakers, there had been a belief that a late January team meeting in Memphis could’ve been the beginning of Dwight Howard’s future with the franchise, or merely the beginning of the end. No restraints, no mercy, no holding back. Kobe Bryant had climbed into Howard in a way that was startling, sobering, a moment of penetrating and unpleasant truths.

      Every time you trash me to teammates, it gets back to me, witnesses said Bryant told Howard in the visiting locker room of the FedEx Forum. Every time you do one of your impersonations when I walk out of the room, I find out. Everything tumbled out of Bryant, one grievance after another, and the Lakers coaches and players sat watching the two biggest personas in the room push closer together, or irreconcilably apart.

      Bryant had come to rage against the idea that Howard’s clownish disposition could overtake the locker room, the Lakers’ culture, and had warned Howard that he would never, ever let it happen. He hated it with Shaquille O’Neal, but Shaq performed on a championship plane for the Lakers and delivered a disposition to dominate on the floor.

      “Kobe talked to Dwight in a way that I don’t think anyone one had ever talked to him – not in Orlando, not here, not in his life, I’m betting,” one witness in the room told Yahoo! Sports. “He’s been coddled, and Kobe wasn’t going to coddle him.””

      http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba–rockets-give-dwight-howard-what-lakers–kobe-wouldn-t–unconditional-love-061137592.html

    123. jon abbey

      Kobe may be an asshole (agreed), but Howard has certainly been coddled his whole career. it’s funny to hear people talk about money or personnel as to why he made his decision, when to me it’s fairly clear that he went to Houston so he doesn’t have to live up to the legacy of genuine superstar centers like Wilt, Kareem and Shaq. he wants to be paid like a franchise player, treated like a franchise player, but he doesn’t seem to have the drive to actually be a franchise player. Kobe presumably thought if he went off on him, he might pull that out of him, but I don’t think it’s in him to pull out.

    124. jon abbey

      lavor postell:

      I personally think Bargnani will marginally improve us if Woodson uses him properly and never has a frontcourt of Bargs-STAT on the floor.

      see, this is what I don’t understand. explain how that works to me, and of course it has to start with Melo exclusively at the 3 and another big man to play behind Chandler.

      if Bargnani only played games that Amare didn’t, I could see that working, maybe. both of them in the same game is going to be really problematic, even if Amare is limited to 20 minutes.

    125. lavor postell

      jon abbey: see, this is what I don’t understand. explain how that works to me, and of course it has to start with Melo exclusively at the 3 and another big man to play behind Chandler.

      if Bargnani only played games that Amare didn’t, I could see that working, maybe. both of them in the same game is going to be really problematic, even if Amare is limited to 20 minutes.

      If Woody gives Shumpert the lion’s share of minutes at the 2 and relies less on 2 pg lineups there should be enough time at the 3/4 for Bargnani to find a niche. I can imagine Bargnani starting games and Amar’e coming in for him off the bench after 7-8 minutes. I’m fine with Melo playing at the 3 especially if he can refine his post game under Olajuwon’s tutelage. He can absolutely murder the majority of small forwards down low and Bargnani will spread the floor for him.

      Idk I don’t really have the energy right now to do a minutes breakdown, but I’d imagine that between Melo, Bargs, STAT, Chandler and Chandler’s back up we could cobble enough time where STAT and Bargs don’t share the floor together.

    126. Brian Cronin

      I am shocked that Cleveland is trying to play hard ball with Bynum, making him agree to a 2-year deal for $24 million (with the second year being a team option). Why would Bynum ever accept a two-year deal for not max money at this point in his career? All he has to do is have a single healthy season and he’ll have MAX offers up the wazoo next year. So why would he ever constrain himself? Even if he is not healthy this year, that type of deal will be available to him next year. He’s 25! Just give him the one year offer that he wants and hope that he has a great year for you and wants to come back next year. At worst you’ll have one great year from him. Better that than to lose him.

    127. massive

      Bynum should definitely take that two year deal, get back to his regular dominance, and leave Cleveland high and dry for a max deal in New York when we have cap space the way LeBron should have 3 summers ago.

    128. Brian Cronin

      Bynum should definitely take that two year deal, get back to his regular dominance, and leave Cleveland high and dry for a max deal in New York when we have cap space the way LeBron should have 3 summers ago.

      But why take a 2-year deal at all? Especially with his old team having major cap room next season and a need for a center? I think his best interest is a one-year deal.

    129. KnickfaninNJ

      MJG1789:
      Just had to share this. In a WOW post about how much Bargs sucks, they ranked 2006 draft picks by WP. Any guesses who the best player is – by far? Ronnie Brewer, of course! http://wagesofwins.com/2013/07/08/canada-gets-a-present-on-its-birthday/

      Yes, and even if you agree totally with wages of wins, we apparently traded a late first rounder for the equivalent of a middle first round draft pick. We did also send Novak out and two second round picks but we got rid of Camby’s contract and gained an open roster spot and some financial flexibility in a year or two. That doesn’t sound like a rip off to me. (And I think Bargnani’s fit on the Knicks is much better than it was in Toronto).

    130. massive

      Brian Cronin: But why take a 2-year deal at all? Especially with his old team having major cap room next season and a need for a center? I think his best interest is a one-year deal.

      It may be, but it’s in the Knicks’ best interest if he takes that two year deal lol. He and Kevin Love could come to New York in 2015, so he should definitely take the two years. I bet Phil Jackson would come coach the Knicks if we had a Shump/Melo/Love/Bynum core to go to war with.

      But in all seriousness, the only way a two year deal benefits him is if the 2nd year is a JR Smith style player option in which he can opt out and get bigger money. The 2nd year should be an “in case you get injured” type of deal for him, but nobody is going to guarantee you $12 million in a second year. That’s why it’s a 2nd year team option, I guess. Bynum really has no reason to take it since he’s not guaranteed anything past this year.

      Maybe Cleveland is the only team offering him that type of money?

    131. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin: But why take a 2-year deal at all? Especially with his old team having major cap room next season and a need for a center? I think his best interest is a one-year deal.

      almost no one has eight figure cap room left, right?

    132. Brian Cronin

      almost no one has eight figure cap room left, right?

      True, but I think it is fine for him if he has to take a seven-figure deal so long as it is a one-year deal. Basically, I think the main thing for him should be the years, not the money. All he has to do is prove he is healthy this year and whammo, he gets a MAX deal next year. So I don’t think it makes as much of a difference if he is getting $12 million or $8 million, he just can’t let himself get locked into that second year (unless it is a player option, but I don’t believe you can have player options on two-year deals).

    133. massive

      It’s also possible that Bynum might actually want to play in Cleveland. Irving, Varejao, Bynum, and Anthony Bennett sounds like a really good team if everyone is healthy. If Bennett is legit (he projects to be a more athletic Zach Randolph), he, Irving, and Bynum could be better than a lot of the Eastern Conference in a year or two.

      But then again, this is Cleveland we’re talking about. Nobody wants to play there.

    134. Vinny L.

      LOL! Marc Berman of the Faux News Post making up excuses for the Knicks getting outbid because they wasted their MLE on Prig:

      Tweets:

      Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman2h
      New CBA unfair in it didn’t allow #Knicks to keep their diamond-in-rough rookie finds in Prigioni-Copeland and sign a middle-class FA.

      Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman2h
      It’s 1 thing to get outbid for stars in new CBA. That’s expected in salary-cap world. But to get hammered for the Garcias, Bynums, Delfinos?

      Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman11m
      #Knicks also in this summer bind because PG they gave MLE too last summer broke contract to work for direct competitor. That’s fact.

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