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Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 02 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks meet with free agent target Nash (Mon, 02 Jul 2012 05:16:54 GMT)
    The Knicks met with Steve Nash on Sunday knowing that they face an uphill battle in their pursuit of the future Hall of Fame point guard.

  • [New York Times] Nets Get Busy, as Free Agency Begins (Mon, 02 Jul 2012 05:54:05 GMT)
    On a wild, whirling first day of free agency, Steve Nash emerged as the N.B.A.’s most coveted player and the Nets as the league’s most active player in trying to keep Deron Williams.

  • [New York Times] Marcus Jordan, Son of NBA Legend, Arrested in Omaha (Mon, 02 Jul 2012 03:39:20 GMT)
    Marcus Jordan, a college basketball player and son of retired NBA legend Michael Jordan, was arrested early Sunday after what police described as a drunken altercation outside a hotel in Omaha, Nebraska.

  • 85 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Jul 02 2012)

    1. JC Knickfan

      I just don’t understand why doesn’t Glen Grunwald go ahead offer 3 year deal to Lin. The 3rd year would be player option.
      This at least put the ball in Lin court. If Lin and his agent try to shop around for better deal at least pressure and possible negative press would be on Lin.

    2. thenamestsam

      A couple free agency thoughts/questions:

      1. With the league seemingly fairly flush in cash, it seems very plausible that J.R. will get an offer more than the 2.8 million the Knicks can offer him as a raise on last years’ amount. I hope he really wants to play here because he may have to take a discount to do so, and losing out on him would leave us pretty thin in the backcourt at the moment.

      2. If a team (Raptors probably?) signs Lin to a deal with a max amount in year 3 (similar to the Asik deal) our cap would be in serious trouble for that third year correct? We’d have all the current large salaries still on board and then Lin at a max amount. We’d be forced to basically disband at that point correct? I’d really appreciate it if someone with better understanding of cap issues would clear that up for me.

      3. Due to the above I’m more and more intrigued by the possibility of going for Nash. I had previously thought that it was too big a risk (in terms of compromising the long term prospects of the team) for too little short term gain (in terms of increased championship prospects). But the more I look at things the more I feel like this teams window is truly the next two years either way, and like worrying about whether we should really chase things for these two years and then worry about rebuilding after that.

      On that note, I’d be willing to include Shump in a Sign and Trade for Nash. I love the kid, but if Nash and Lin are here, those are your two main guards for the next couple years, and you can’t pass up a trade that has a chance to make you a true contender because of a 3rd guard with a torn ACL. You just can’t. If we can get them to do Fields that would be great but I don’t see it. If Nash won’t come here for the mini-mid then they have the leverage. It’s funny seeing all the same fans who can’t wait to see Fields’ back act like he’s a solid piece to receive in a trade.

    3. Ted Nelson

      thenamestsam: if Nash and Lin are here, those are your two main guards for the next couple years

      I don’t see playing those two together all that much. Would be defensive suicide, and I’m not sure Lin has much offensive value off the ball anyway. I’d imagine Lin is your third guard in that situation.

    4. ephus

      @2

      1. The most lucrative offer that the Knicks could make to JR Smith is $2.8 million plus a player option of $2.9 million for next season. If Smith does not get hurt, after this year the Knicks could offer 4 years starting at $5.3 million per season. If a team offered Smith the MLE, he would be giving away $2.5 million by turning it down.

      2. If the Knicks match the max offer to Lin, they would be way over the tax level for the next three years. That would not require the Knicks to jettison any players, but would require that the Knicks pay rapidly rising tax rates. For this year, the Knicks will pay $1 in tax for every dollar in salary over $70 million. Next season, the Knicks will pay a sliding scale tax rate that starts at $1.50 for every dollar over the tax level and goes up. If the Knicks spend three seasons out of four over the tax level, they get tagged with stiffer tax rates that start at $2.50 for every dollar over the tax level. Here is Larry Coon’s explanation:

      http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

      Basically, if the Knicks move to $20 million over the salary cap and stay there, they are committing to paying $45 million in tax for the next two years, and $65 million in tax thereafter. The confiscatory tax rates are the reason most people think the Thunder cannot keep Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka in the long term. Four max contracts would generate a huge tax liability that probably outstrips the marginal revenues generated by advancing to the Finals.

    5. ephus

      Correction, if the Knicks move to $20 million over the salary cap and stay there, they will pay $20 million in tax this year, $45 million for the next two years, and $65 million in tax thereafter.

    6. JC Knickfan

      Here question for you Ephus

      According to Paul Coro of azcentral.com,
      “New York is offering Landry Fields, Toney Douglas, Dan Gadzuric, Jerome Jordan and $3 million in exchange for the 38-year-old point guard. Along with Landry Fields, they would receive Toney Douglas, Dan Gadzuric and Jerome Jordan that amount to $4.18 million of one-year, non-guaranteed contracts.”

      If Fields is base compensation player correct? So they sign him to $5 Million deal we can only take back $2.5 mil in salary.

      If Salaries needs to be within 125% + 100k of each other in trades that mean ((4.18 mil + 2.5 mil) * 1.25 + 100k) = 8.45 mil
      This is max we can offer to Nash?

      Also Nash and Field need agree to sign and trade while I’m not sure why Fields would.

    7. 2FOR18

      Going with the small ball formula, I think Boston can hang with anybody if they resign Allen:
      Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Jeff Green, KG. with Bradley, Pietrus, Sullinger, Melo and whoever they spend their 5 mil MLE on.

      That team is too nasty, so I’m all in on getting Nash if we can, even though I love Shump. And even though I don’t like JR, we need his upside at 2.8 mil; their’s just no one else out there that we can afford who can do what he does.

      And please stop dicking around with Lin. If they lose Lin and don’t get Nash, then I may be taking my talents to Brooklyn. (Nah, unfortunately I’m stuck with this team for life).

      Re: the tax, it’s the one good thing we have in Dolan. MSG and the Knicks print money, so I think he’ll pay the tax without blinking.

    8. ephus

      JC Knickfan,

      Here is my attempt to be Larry Coon, but others may have a better understanding.

      The Knicks are currently considered a tax paying team, because the cap holds for Lin ($5.3 million), Novak ($5.3 million), JR Smith ($2.8 million) and Fields ($5.3 million) take them well over the $70 million tax threshold. So they can only take back 125% of the salary they send out, plus $100,000. Fields is currently a RFA, so they Knicks can sign and trade him, so long as they sign him to at least a 3 year deal (although years two and three can be unguaranteed). But, because the Knicks are currently a taxpayer and are going to sign Fields to more than a 20% raise, his outgoing salary for purposes of the trade will be only 50% of his actual salary. So, if the Knicks gave Fields the full $5.3 million he could get as an Early Bird, his sign-and-trade value would only be $2.65 million.

      If you add $2.65 million for Fields with $4.18 million for TD, Gadzuric and Jerome Jordan, you get $6.83 million. Multiply that by 1.25 you get $8.54 million. If you add the $100,000 buffer, the maximum first year salary that the Knicks could take back is $8.64 million. The maximum raise for each year would be $684,000. So the three year package to Nash would be $8.64/9.29/

    9. ephus

      JC Knickfan,

      Here is my attempt to be Larry Coon, but others may have a better understanding.

      The Knicks are currently considered a tax paying team, because the cap holds for Lin ($5.3 million), Novak ($5.3 million), JR Smith ($2.8 million) and Fields ($5.3 million) take them well over the $70 million tax threshold. So they can only take back 125% of the salary they send out, plus $100,000. Fields is currently a RFA, so they Knicks can sign and trade him, so long as they sign him to at least a 3 year deal (although years two and three can be unguaranteed). But, because the Knicks are currently a taxpayer and are going to sign Fields to more than a 20% raise, his outgoing salary for purposes of the trade will be only 50% of his actual salary. So, if the Knicks gave Fields the full $5.3 million he could get as an Early Bird, his sign-and-trade value would only be $2.65 million.

      If you add $2.65 million for Fields with $4.18 million for TD, Gadzuric and Jerome Jordan, you get $6.83 million. Multiply that by 1.25 you get $8.54 million. If you add the $100,000 buffer, the maximum first year salary that the Knicks could take back is $8.64 million. The maximum raise for each year would be $684,000. So the three year package to Nash would be $8.64/9.29/9.97 million or roughly $28 million over three years.

    10. Jafa

      Great stuff ephus.

      If that trade actually goes through, it may be a big win for us. Trading a rotation player and 3 seldom used back-ups for a starter sounds like a great idea.

      Where does that leave us with Lin though? And what do we do about SG help to start the season?

    11. ephus

      On the question of why Fields would agree to this sign-and-trade, I think his market value is well below $5.3 million. In fact, I do not think he would fetch $5.3 million over the course of a two year deal. If Fields agrees to a three year deal (with the last two years non-guaranteed), he gets $5.3 million up front, a year of playing time, and will either play his way into a bigger contract or be a free agent after next season (with no Bird Rights). If Fields says no, he probably gets a $2 million one year deal from someone and, if it is not the Knicks, he will be a free agent with no Bird Rights after next season.

      So, Fields gets $3.3 million and a good place to garner playing time.

    12. ephus

      If the Knicks bring in Nash, then they still have Early Bird rights on Lin. I would expect Toronto (if they do not get Nash) or Brooklyn (if they do not sign Williams) to make a back-loaded offer to Lin. The Knicks could match, but that would mean a BIG tax bill in 2014-15, unless they jettison salary in the meanwhile.

      The Knicks will also have a $3 million mini-MLE to spend on SG. Given the big tax number for 2014-15, the Knicks would likely prefer to sign a two year deal, rather than a three year. JR Smith (if he comes back) may also take a lot of the SG minutes until Shumpert’s return.

    13. thenamestsam

      ephus:
      On the question of why Fields would agree to this sign-and-trade, I think his market value is well below $5.3 million.In fact, I do not think he would fetch $5.3 million over the course of a two year deal.If Fields agrees to a three year deal (with the last two years non-guaranteed), he gets $5.3 million up front, a year of playing time, and will either play his way into a bigger contract or be a free agent after next season (with no Bird Rights).If Fields says no, he probably gets a $2 million one year deal from someone and, if it is not the Knicks, he will be a free agent with no Bird Rights after next season.

      So, Fields gets $3.3 million and a good place to garner playing time.

      My question is why do the Suns do this? How does paying Landry Fields 5.3 million next year help them in any way shape or form? Basically it’s great for the Knicks to pay Fields that much because it lets us pay Nash a competitive amount, but what is the incentive for the Suns? It still seems like the Knicks would have to include Shump in there as a sweetener to entice them.

      As both Jafa and Ted point out this would put the Knicks in an interesting spot vis-a-vis Lin. I agree with Ted that it is far less than an optimal pairing. Offensively we have no idea how comfortable either is off the ball, and defensively it would have to be among the very worst backcourts in the league. And yet despite the odd pairing the popularity and money involved with these two guys would seem to dictate that they’d be playing together a good amount. Neither guy is going to play less than 30 minutes a night, so that right there is at least 12 minutes together, and probably they’d be closing games together. Weird situation.

    14. ephus

      thenamestsam: My question is why do the Suns do this? How does paying Landry Fields 5.3 million next year help them in any way shape or form?

      If you assume that Fields agrees that year 2 and year 3 of his contract would be non-guaranteed, then the Suns would have a slot to take on around $9 million in salary from a team looking to dump salary after next season. For example, the Suns could take Kendrick Perkins (plus a first draft pick) for nothing from OKC. Or, they could use Fields as a sweetener to trade Childress for a productive (but overpaid) max player.

    15. thenamestsam

      ephus: If you assume that Fields agrees that year 2 and year 3 of his contract would be non-guaranteed, then the Suns would have a slot to take on around $9 million in salary from a team looking to dump salary after next season.For example, the Suns could take Kendrick Perkins (plus a first draft pick) for nothing from OKC.Or, they could use Fields as a sweetener to trade Childress for a productive (but overpaid) max player.

      That’s very helpful, thanks. It still seems like we’re talking about a pretty marginal benefit. Is it better for them then getting nothing if Nash goes to Toronto? Sure, I guess. But the Knicks would have a lot more to lose in the negotiations if Nash won’t come for the $3M exception. I’d expect that the Suns would be able to demand at least one more asset – probably Shump.

    16. Frank

      thenamestsam: That’s very helpful, thanks. It still seems like we’re talking about a pretty marginal benefit. Is it better for them then getting nothing if Nash goes to Toronto? Sure, I guess. But the Knicks would have a lot more to lose in the negotiations if Nash won’t come for the $3M exception. I’d expect that the Suns would be able to demand at least one more asset – probably Shump.

      I think perhaps $3MM Dolan dollars probably helps. They may actually like Harrellson and Jordan too, and TD is an expiring contract. $ plus assets as well as a good will gesture to Nash? Might be enough, certainly better than nothing.

    17. Jafa

      Here’s another question:

      For the team and coach we have, does Nash make sense? Does he make sense with our defensive minded coach? Does he make sense with our Melo centric offense?

      It just seems that getting Nash would marginalize somebody or something. Melo could get marginalized with Nash having the ball all the time. Nash could get marginalized with Melo initiating the offense. Our defense could get marginalized with PGs blowing by Nash and getting Chandler in foul trouble early and often. Lin could get marginalized as well, or even sent to the bench.

      We already have players that aren’t ideal fits, do we need to try to force another square peg into our round hole?

    18. Spree8nyk8

      I think that if it’s going to build a contender Dolan is willing to pay the tax. It’s not my money and I’m not claiming to know, but he paid 90m a year for one of the worst rosters I’ve ever seen, I’m pretty sure he’ll be willing to fork it out for a contender. I do think the Knicks should get an offer out to Jeremy now to avoid the poison pill. I don’t see why it makes sense to do it this way unless they are specifically not going to match, but I don’t see any way they let lin walk. And it’s not like he can only play backup pg, he played a lot of 2 in college. I’m sure he’s going to play some reasonable minutes there if Nash comes.

    19. ephus

      BTW, if the Knicks also included Shumpert in the sign and trade for Nash, they could up the starting offer by around $2.1 million — so it would be $10.7/11.5/12.3 or roughly $34.5 million over four years. That would make the dollars roughly equivalent to Toronto’s offer, but there are big questions:

      1. Would NY agree to send Shumpert out to get Nash? I reluctantly say yes, but others disagree (for sound reasons) vehemently.

      2. Would Nash still want to come without Shumpert here? I do not see this being a big issue for him, but Shumpert with Nash and Lin brings the Knicks closer to being a Finals contender.

      3. How certain are the Knicks that JR Smith will return? Because if the Knicks deal Fields and Shumpert, then Smith becomes essential to the Knicks backcourt rotation.

    20. ephus

      I think the reason the Knicks have not made an offer to Lin is that they recognize it might do more harm than good to make a low offer. Most the Knicks can offer (as opposed to matching) is $5.3 million plus 7.5% annual raises. $5.3/5.7/6.0 (player option) or $5.3/5.7/6.0/6.4 (player option) probably does not get Lin to forego listening to competitive offers.

    21. Jafa

      ephus, here are my answers:

      1. We should not trade Shumpert to get Nash. Our wing players are average to below average defensively and we need somebody who can lock down (or try his best in the case of Miami) the other teams best wing player.

      2. I don’t think Nash is making his decision based on Shumpert. Melo, STAT and Chandler play a bigger role in our title contention hopes than Shumpert does.

      3. I just felt a shiver thinking of JR as our only viable wing option next to Melo. Both need better shot selection, but at least Melo makes his shots.

    22. Frank

      Re Nash and Lin in the backcourt defensively- obviously not a good situation but Denver has absolutely killed with two PGs in the backcourt the last few years with Lawson/Miller/Felton. None of those guys would be considered good defenders, and then you had average defenders in the front court too inDenver. So I think it’s probably doable in small doses. Defending Lin and Nash would be a nightmare with either Amare or Tyson as the roll man and JR and Novak spacing the floor.

    23. Jafa

      Frank,

      All we need is a coach that would think that way and were in business…oh yeah, that guy just left a few months ago. Two defensive liabilities (or average at best) at the guard spots and heavy P&R with Amare or Tyson will not work with Woodson as the coach and Melo as the best player on the team.

    24. Gideon Zaga

      I’m tired of all this thought processes. God do it already. Sign them. Why haven’t they done it already or maybe they’re not going to do it and Nash is using us to up TOR’s offer to the max. My guess it won’t be done or it would have been done already. And I’m still mad about the draft. Seriously to hell with this team. I’m watching them screw this up again. We’re the only team in the NBA who is rumored to signing everyone come free agency and then we sign no one. They just use us to get what they want. Heck I’m going to start using the Knicks for my business ventures too haha. Come on why can’t we be like Lakers, very predictable and stable. They actually do what we think they are going to do most of the time. As the saying goes avoid complex solutions when confronting challenges. It’s either Lin or Nash or both or none. But do something already. I’m done maybe I’ll post when they actually do something. This speculation Is unhealthy.

    25. ephus

      Gideon Zaga: But do something already. I’m done maybe I’ll post when they actually do something. This speculation Is unhealthy

      No one can do anything until July 11, when the Moratorium elapses. Until then, the teams and players can negotiate, but nothing can be signed. Even announced deals (like KG going back to Boston) cannot be consummated until July 11. If have read that Deron Williams wants to reach an agreement before July 7 so that he can practice with the Olympic team, but if he gets on the court before July Moratorium he is taking an enormous risk.

    26. Frank

      Sign and trade for Nash and then sign Camby to the MiniMLE would be an absolute slam dunk of an offseason. You can find a backp wing player for the vet’s minimum. Make it happen Glen!!!!!

    27. nicos

      I actually think Lin could be really good off of the ball provided he improves from three (he doesn’t need to be great, just around 36% or so- enough to force someone to run out at him). He’d be lethal in a Harden type role running quick pnr’s/iso’s off of ball reversal. The problem is I don’t think Woodson is the right coach to deal with all the moving parts you’d have with Lin and Nash paired together. You think MDA would have liked a shot at designing an offense around those two?

    28. Z-man

      Nash is among the smartest players and best shooting and passing PGs in the recdent history of the league. I love Shump and Lin and would not like to lose either one; yet, I could live with losing one of them to get Nash, just not both. I’m not sold on Lin yet, and we have basically a 2 year window with the Melo-STAT-Chandler nucleus. Only Melo has any chance of being re-signed in 2015 and even that is not a given. At this point, we almost have to go all in for any of the moves made thus far to have any chance of being successful. However, Nash is not worth over $10 million a year plus our best two young prospects. Now, if we can somehow swing the deal and keep both Lin and Shump, that would be freakin’ nuclear!

    29. thenamestsam

      So it sounds like the Nets have agreed to a deal to acquire Joe Johnson for a pupu platter of stuff. That’s a horrendous contract, but they basically got it for nothing, and they’ll actually have a pretty interesting team next year. Deron, JJ, Wallace, Humphries and Lopez is a reasonable and fairly coherent starting 5. It’s not enough to make them a real contender, and rushing down this road has probably permanently closed the easiest route to true contender status available to them (getting Dwight), but for a team that apparently felt it was a 100% necessity to put a playoff caliber team on the court next year, and couldn’t be patient for the one extra year they could have done worse. If they can somehow swing a SnT for Dwight next year a Dwight, JJ, Deron core would be very formidable.

    30. ephus

      Apparently the Nets deal for Joe Johnson is not contingent on Deron Williams agreeing to return. If Johnson comes and Williams leaves, I see the Nets jumping into the bidding on both Nash and Lin. Nash to Brooklyn would reunite him with Joe Johnson and absolutely fill the seats. Lin to Brooklyn would create a huge marketing opportunity for Brooklyn.

      I am now rooting really hard for Williams to agree to return to the Nets.

    31. Jafa

      If I’m the Nets, I give Camby a call and see if he could be my center.

      The Heat won it all without a true center and the other East top teams (Boston & Indiana) do not have true centers (if Indiana loses Hibbert). So a lineup of DWill, JJ, Wallace, Humphries and Camby with Kidd, Lopez, Brooks and Green off the bench looks like a 3rd or 4th seeded playoff team in the East to me.

    32. ephus

      In related news, Dwight Howard has handled this situation more poorly than I imagined was possible. If he had simply said at the trade deadline that he would not resign with Orlando, and reiterated his desire to go to the Nets, Orlando likely would have traded him there. Even if they did not, he could have signed with the Nets during this offseason. Instead, he has no obvious way to get to Brooklyn this year or next and is likely going to be traded wherever Orlando wants.

    33. thenamestsam

      ephus:
      In related news, Dwight Howard has handled this situation more poorly than I imagined was possible.If he had simply said at the trade deadline that he would not resign with Orlando, and reiterated his desire to go to the Nets, Orlando likely would have traded him there.Even if they did not, he could have signed with the Nets during this offseason.Instead, he has no obvious way to get to Brooklyn this year or next and is likely going to be traded wherever Orlando wants.

      This is the funniest thing to me. I’m sort of glad that all of his terrible decision making is going to have some consequences. For as much shit as Lebron got, what Dwight has done to the actual franchise in Orlando is 50x worse. Lebron made no secret of the fact that he was considering leaving, and while the way he did it was tasteless and cruel to the fans, he didn’t ever lie to the Cavs or misrepresent his intentions. Dwight’s incessant waffling has actively harmed the franchise in numerous ways and now he’s going to pay for it as well, since his preferred destination is basically out of reach for him. If he ends up in a mediocre situation (Houston for example) he will really have paid full cost for those errors.

    34. ephus

      Now that it looks like Dwight to the Nets is impossible, I see the Lakers swooping in and trading Bynum + filler for Howard. Howard does not have a credible threat of another location where he would sign a max deal after next season.

    35. thenamestsam

      ephus:
      Now that it looks like Dwight to the Nets is impossible, I see the Lakers swooping in and trading Bynum + filler for Howard. Howard does not have a credible threat of another location where he would sign a max deal after next season.

      That’s exactly what I think will happen also. The only alternative I see to that is if the Clippers were to offer Blake+filler, but I don’t think that organization is really competent enough to come to a decision on such a franchise-defining move (Note: This is very different than the Paul deal. That was essentially a no-brainer. If you can do it you do it. This would be a very different type of deal. Good for basketball reasons, but probably bad in terms of marketing, and largely defined by who CP3 would rather play with. This sort of move requires a much steadier hand on the tiller). Other than Blake I’m not sure anyone can offer a more intriguing piece than Bynum, and the Lakers have to be a little nervous about becoming irrelevant to some extent. They haven’t been real contenders the last two years and I don’t see another clear route to improvement.

      Dwight on LA would be interesting from a basketball perspective. I’d love to see whether Kobe could come full circle and go back to being the elite 2nd option he started out as, or whether his ego and his desire for the points record has completely taken over at this point. If they get Dwight and deal Gasol for a couple pieces they could be pretty good pretty fast.

    36. ephus

      There is a D12 to OKC deal that works (Howard for Harden/Ibaka/Perkins/Maynor/Cook) under the cap, but I am not certain either team is willing to do something that radical. Both teams would be looking at crazy tax liability two years out.

    37. ruruland

      Jafa:
      Frank,

      All we need is a coach that would think that way and were in business…oh yeah, that guy just left a few months ago.Two defensive liabilities (or average at best) at the guard spots and heavy P&R with Amare or Tyson will not work with Woodson as the coach and Melo as the best player on the team.

      Sigh….. What are you basing this on? Do you truly believe that Mike Woodson is so stupid/stubborn that if the Knicks were to land Steve Nash and retain Lin, isolations would be the predominant set of the offense?

      Have you considered the fact that the Hawks ran an isolation-heavy offense in Atlanta because they lacked a pick and roll point guard?

      Steve Nash is a great fit in any offense. Perhaps folks forgot that he put up ridiculously efficient numbers with isolation specialists — Nowitzki, Finley, Jamison, Van Exel, Walker.

      Do you think the Celtics were worried about Rondo taking possessions away from Paul Pierce when he was given more responsibilities in the offense??????

      No, all of the Celtics players got easier shots, and the big 3 put up some of, if not their most efficient years, well beyond their physical primes with Rondo.

      Pierce still played isolation basketball when the situation dictated that was the best offense. Melo will still get post-ups and isolations, but they will cut back dramatically and replaced by much more efficient shots. Obviously the same goes for Amar’e and JR.

      But the difference on offense between Nash and Rondo is that when you go inside-out with Melo, Nash is obviously a premier spot-up player.

      You don’t just double the team’s ability to create good shots, but you double the efficiency of the good shots you already create with Melo, Lin and JR.

      Moreover, you decrease the shot-creation responsibilities of your three best offensive players — that is always a good thing.

    38. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah right and when Melo did the same thing for us, you guys have hated him and some still do till this day. Like I always say never be Prisoner of the Moment. Funny thing to me is the Dwight Loyalty t shirts. Please.

      thenamestsam: This is the funniest thing to me. I’m sort of glad that all of his terrible decision making is going to have some consequences. For as much shit as Lebron got, what Dwight has done to the actual franchise in Orlando is 50x worse. Lebron made no secret of the fact that he was considering leaving, and while the way he did it was tasteless and cruel to the fans, he didn’t ever lie to the Cavs or misrepresent his intentions. Dwight’s incessant waffling has actively harmed the franchise in numerous ways and now he’s going to pay for it as well, since his preferred destination is basically out of reach for him. If he ends up in a mediocre situation (Houston for example) he will really have paid full cost for those errors.

    39. ruruland

      nicos:
      I actually think Lin could be really good off of the ball provided he improves from three (he doesn’t need to be great, just around 36% or so- enough to force someone to run out at him).He’d be lethal in a Harden type role running quick pnr’s/iso’s off of ball reversal.The problem is I don’t think Woodson is the right coach to deal with all the moving parts you’d have with Lin and Nash paired together.You think MDA would have liked a shot at designing an offense around those two?

      Wait, did we not learn anything from this last season? MDA did not change the design of his offense in any respect with Melo and Amar’e.

      Woodson, in his very short time, showed much more versatility with his offense than MDA did.

      As you mentioned, both Lin and Nash can be great “off-the-ball”. And let’s remember that “off-the-ball” in this scenario, as you said, is side pick and roll.

      You’re talking about having 3 good to great pnr scorers/passers, in combination with two of the best pnr scorers in the game all at the floor at the same time….

      Moreover, you’d have 4 highly efficient spot-up and cut players playing off the screen and roll game.

    40. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland:

      You don’t just double the team’s ability to create good shots, but you double the efficiency of the good shots you already create with Melo, Lin and JR.

      Steve Nash doubles the efficiency of the shots his teammates take? Come the fuck on. He’s one of the greats of this generation, but come the fuck on. The best players might increase teammate efficiency by 5%, maybe 10% in players like Shaq and LeBron. Totally impossible to quantify, anyway.

    41. ruruland

      Ted Nelson: I don’t see playing those two together all that much. Would be defensive suicide, and I’m not sure Lin has much offensive value off the ball anyway. I’d imagine Lin is your third guard in that situation.

      Nash doesn’t play more than 30 minutes these days and I think you’d want to reduce his responsibilities and save him for the playoffs.

      That means he would play a lot with Lin and he would not be asked to create every possession….

      Let’s remember that Nash has an extremely low fga per 36, even compared with guys like Bibby, Shumpert, Douglas and Davis, so you’d actually be increasing shot opportunities for your top 3-4 guys with Nash….

      Like Frank mentioned, Lawson and Miller were a great fit together…

      Nash and Lin have fewer combined weaknesses offensively than Lawson and Miller, and therefore you’d be looking at far fewer marginal returns issues.

      You’d be looking at a team that would play extremely fast, would be much more unselfish, would create a high proportion of easy shots, and would be able to convert on open shots at a much higher rate than last year……

      Even with Melo out you could be looking at having a Nash/Amar’e on one side and Chandler/Lin on the other with a shooter like Novak or Smith to take all of the easy shots they’d create..

      Adding Nash to what should be a really good offensive team next year (with JR, Novak and Lin returning) is truly mind-boggling.

    42. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Steve Nash doubles the efficiency of the shots his teammates take? Come the fuck on. He’s one of the greats of this generation, but come the fuck on. The best players might increase teammate efficiency by 5%, maybe 10% in players like Shaq and LeBron. Totally impossible to quantify, anyway.

      Obviously I was embellishing for effect. I don’t know the percentage increase of easy shots Nash would create when added to the roster, but when the ball swings back to Nash after others have created scrambling defense he’s going to convert those kind of opportunities at an insanely high rate— not just his shooting but his ability to convert with a pass against a rotation.

      I actually think if this was just a position comparison between he and Douglas/Davis/Bibby/Shumpert, we actually could be looking at scoring rate of close to twice that of those players— that is to say, when you add up both the increased easy shots Nash creates, and the increased conversions off of shots others create, the difference is quite staggering.

      going from something like an average of .75 ppp to 1.35-1.45ppp in a number of scenarios wouldn’t surprise me a bit.

    43. thenamestsam

      ruruland: Wait, did we not learn anything from this last season? MDA did not change the design of his offense in any respect with Melo and Amar’e.

      Woodson, in his very short time, showed much more versatility with his offense than MDA did.

      I think you’re showing a bit too much faith in Woody here.

      I’m willing to give the guy a chance, but the fact is that because of personnel, or because it’s his preference, for whatever reason, he ran one of the least imaginative offenses I’ve ever seen in Atlanta. Then he came in midseason with a Knicks team playing a totally different offensive style. The flexibility I assume you’re referring to was what we saw in the 7 games immediately after taking over for Dantoni and before Lin was lost, because the team certainly didn’t play a very diverse offense after that point. So for one thing your contention that Woodson is itching to play a diverse offense is based on a 7 game sample. For a second thing, calling the offense that a team ran immediately after replacing its coach during a season with no practices indicative of the kind of style the coach wants to play is a bit disingenuous.

      What I see is a coach who in his previous job made no effort to run a diversified or interesting offense. Did he have the players for it? No, certainly not ideal ones, but he was there for four years. If he had wanted to run a different style they probably would have tried to acquire players to make that happen, or he would have at least tried some different guys. He didn’t. Then he took over a team running a PnR based offense during a hectic season. He had very little time to change the teams style, but its undeniable that the more time passed, the more we looked like Iso-Melo. I see transition from one dogmatic approach to another, not versatility.

    44. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Steve Nash doubles the efficiency of the shots his teammates take? Come the fuck on. He’s one of the greats of this generation, but come the fuck on. The best players might increase teammate efficiency by 5%, maybe 10% in players like Shaq and LeBron. Totally impossible to quantify, anyway.

      It’s not impossible to quantify, Berri just hasn’t figured it out yet. I would not be surprised if others operating with much deeper pockets have (or at least come close to it in some theoretical sense)…

      Morey was hot on Melo’s trail, not because of his TS%.

      Look at Amar’e’s career numbers with and without Nash. Look at the Nash’s career +/- offensively.

      Consider that the Suns had the 9th most efficient offense last year with a supporting cast of Gortat, Hill, Shannon Brown, Jared Dudley and Channing Frye….

      Look at how awful that bench was….

      The list of guys who shattered their career efficiency marks playing with Nash is extensive, in fact, there’s 4-5 guys on last years team who probably wouldn’t have been in the league if it weren’t for Nash’s ability to create open shots.

    45. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I think you’re showing a bit too much faith in Woody here.

      Then he took over a team running a PnR based offense during a hectic season. He had very little time to change the teams style, but its undeniable that the more time passed, the more we looked like Iso-Melo. I see transition from one dogmatic approach to another, not versatility.

      We saw iso Melo after Lin went down because, once again, the pgs lacked the ability to create shots in pnr.

      Even spry and in his prime, Davis was a poor pnr player who created off nifty ball-handling in isolation….. The Knicks, after Lin went down, had far and away the worst backcourt playmaking situation of any team in the playoffs, and certainly among the vast majority of teams who missed the playoffs.

      Oftentimes the Knicks attempted to run other kinds of offense, which failed and then turned into isolations.

      perhaps we can go through Synergy and look at the playoff games where the play called for something other than a Melo isolation, but because of the significant personnel issues, turned into an isolation anyway.

      But because of the inability to even get enough dribble penetration to get a good passing angle, the Knicks were left with about five options: Melo pnr, Melo iso, JR pnr, JR iso, Ama’re iso….

      The fact that people think Mike Woodson doesn’t understand that Nash and Lin are great pnr players, that Amar’e and Chandler are great pnr finishers, is really staggering to me.

      Mike Woodson has spent most of his life in basketball, much of it surrounded by great coaches. Do you understand what that means?

    46. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Funny, ruruland. Michael Lewis wrote a book about a group of people who spent much of their lives in baseball, much of it surrounded by great coaches and other baseball minds. I won’t spoil it for you, but guess what happened to those people?

    47. ephus

      With the Joe Johnson trade and the Marvin Williams/Devin Harris trade, Atlanta has emptied their salary cap for next off season. ESPN is already speculating that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard could unite with Josh Smith in Atlanta after the season.

      AFAIC, all the more reason to take a shot this season with Nash/Lin.

    48. thenamestsam

      @Ruru I’m not trying to say that there’s no chance that Woodson will run a more diversified offense, or that he secretly loves playing uptempo ball with multiple penetrating PGs and very little isolation. All I was doing was disputing that there was any evidence to that affect, an argument which your post seems to concede for the most part. Sure the Knicks didn’t have many options after Lin went down, but it doesn’t change the fact that any claims that Woodson ran a versatile offense are based on a 10 day period immediately after he took over in which they played 7 games. How much change do you realistically think he could have instituted in that time? The far larger body of evidence is that he is a coach who prefers to play a slow it down offense based around isolation and set plays. Like I said, maybe he has purely been a slave to personnel during the other 6+ years of his experience as a coach, and those 10 days reveal who he truly is. I find that quite unlikely.

      Mike Dantoni has also spent his life in basketball, most of it surrounded by good coaches. Did that stop him from dogmatically running an offense that was ill-suited to the personnel on hand? I think you know the answer to that one.

    49. BigBlueAL

      ephus:
      With the Joe Johnson trade and the Marvin Williams/Devin Harris trade, Atlanta has emptied their salary cap for next off season.ESPN is already speculating that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard could unite with Josh Smith in Atlanta after the season.

      AFAIC, all the more reason to take a shot this season with Nash/Lin.

      If ESPN is speculating something than you know its gonna happen for sure :-)

    50. d-mar

      ephus: With the Joe Johnson trade and the Marvin Williams/Devin Harris trade, Atlanta has emptied their salary cap for next off season. ESPN is already speculating that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard could unite with Josh Smith in Atlanta after the season.AFAIC, all the more reason to take a shot this season with Nash/Lin.

      My first reaction was no way, why would any athlete want to go to a shitty sports town like Atlanta? But I guess Miami would be the counter to that (although South Beach and no state tax blows away what Atlanta can offer)

    51. JK47

      Color me “meh” about this new Brooklyn Nets nucleus, even if they do retain Deron Williams. Joe Johnson is a bad max contract, Gerald Wallace is heading into the downside of his career and seems overpriced at 4/40 and Brook Lopez is mediocrity personified. That team is being built by the Isiah Thomas roster construction method.

    52. Robtachi

      thenamestsam:
      @Ruru
      Mike Dantoni has also spent his life in basketball, most of it surrounded by good coaches. Did that stop him from dogmatically running an offense that was ill-suited to the personnel on hand? I think you know the answer to that one.

      Mike Woodson isn’t the architect of some radically dogmatic isolation offensive system the way MDA was irreversibly married to his, so the comparison is inherently flawed.

      So far in his coaching career, Woodson has shown a proclivity toward running isolation-heavy offenses when presented with a roster ill-suited for much else. That’s either a sign that he prefers iso-style offenses, or that he’s simply a basketball mind who understands what he’s looking at when he sees a roster and tries to run an offense dictated by the pieces of which it’s comprised. This year, he will presumably have at least one superior ball distributer in the backcourt as well as a wing player who can score from anywhere (presumably) with decent efficiency. Let’s see what he does before proclaiming him incapable of being able to properly recognize how the pieces on his roster fit. It’s like you all forget that the Knicks basically didn’t have any practices last year.

    53. ephus

      Dwight Howard is from Atlanta and still keeps a home there. Howard and Josh Smith were close childhood friends. The allure for Chris Paul would be the opportunity to play with Howard and Smith.

      I expect Atlanta and Orlando both to struggle this year, but Atlanta will reload during the offseason. The Knicks are locked into Melo/Stat/Chandler for the next three season. So, if there is an opportunity to add to the roster and challenge this year, I say the Knicks should go for it.

    54. ephus

      JK47:
      Color me “meh” about this new Brooklyn Nets nucleus, even if they do retain Deron Williams.Joe Johnson is a bad max contract, Gerald Wallace is heading into the downside of his career and seems overpriced at 4/40 and Brook Lopez is mediocrity personified.That team is being built by the Isiah Thomas roster construction method.

      If the Nets followed the Isiah Thomas roster construction method, Paul Pierce would quickly follow Joe Johnson to Brooklyn.

    55. Robtachi

      ephus:
      Dwight Howard is from Atlanta and still keeps a home there.Howard and Josh Smith were close childhood friends.The allure for Chris Paul would be the opportunity to play with Howard and Smith.

      I expect Atlanta and Orlando both to struggle this year, but Atlanta will reload during the offseason.The Knicks are locked into Melo/Stat/Chandler for the next three season.So, if there is an opportunity to add to the roster and challenge this year, I say the Knicks should go for it.

      Call me crazy, but a healthy starting five of Lin/Whoever/Melo/Stat/Chandler already sounds like a serious East contender to me. Remember all the (admittedly premature) contender debate last off-season after the Chandler signing? Sounds much more credible knowing the Knicks will probably have a well above average PG improving overall offensive efficiency and a deeper bench (than what they started with last year).

    56. ephus

      Even if the Knicks do not get Nash, I will still be optimistic about this season. But if they can get Nash (especially if they do not have to sacrifice Shumpert), I will be giddy. I would also match a backloaded offer for Lin, even if the consequence is a huge payroll in 2014-15.

    57. yoda4554

      Robtachi: Mike Woodson isn’t the architect of some radically dogmatic isolationoffensive system the way MDA was irreversibly married to his, so the comparison is inherently flawed.

      So far in his coaching career, Woodson has shown a proclivity toward running isolation-heavy offenses when presented with a roster ill-suited for much else.That’s either a sign that he prefers iso-style offenses, or that he’s simply a basketball mind who understands what he’s looking at when he sees a roster and tries to run an offense dictated by the pieces of which it’s comprised.This year, he will presumably have at least one superior ball distributer in the backcourt as well as a wing player who can score from anywhere (presumably) with decent efficiency.Let’s see what he does before proclaiming him incapable of being able to properly recognize how the pieces on his roster fit. It’s like you all forget thatthe Knicks basically didn’t have any practices last year.

      What team were you all watching the first third of the season? That team wasn’t running anything that remotely resembled SSOL. During the Shumpert-at-point experiment, when Shumpert was asked what the offensive strategy was, he basically said, “I look for Melo and give him the ball when he wants it.” Except for the flirtation with the (non-SSOL) Melo-as-point-forward set-up–which Melo seemed unwilling to do for more than brief stretches, and for which D’Antoni was roundly mocked for trying–we were playing isoball until Melo got hurt and Lin took over.

    58. Brian Cronin

      If the Nets followed the Isiah Thomas roster construction method, Paul Pierce would quickly follow Joe Johnson to Brooklyn.

      I await the announcement about the Nets’ signing of Jamal Crawford any day now.

    59. Z-man

      Lin has withdrawn from Team Select USA due to his free agent status. So we don’t even get to see him post-surgery before signing him to a back-loaded deal? Frankly, if he gets offered $30+ million, let him walk. Between his propensity to get clobbered when he puts his head down and attacks the rim, to his less-than-stellar stats in half the games he played after the novelty wore off, he’s a very, very big risk. The guy is simply not even in the same galaxy as 38 year old Nash. At $5 mill per, he’s a solid signing. At double that, the risk is off the charts.

    60. BigBlueAL

      Kinda makes Marshon Brooks and Gerald Green expendable no?? Unless they are going to start Wallace at PF I guess.

    61. thenamestsam

      Robtachi: Mike Woodson isn’t the architect of some radically dogmatic isolationoffensive system the way MDA was irreversibly married to his, so the comparison is inherently flawed.

      So far in his coaching career, Woodson has shown a proclivity toward running isolation-heavy offenses when presented with a roster ill-suited for much else.That’s either a sign that he prefers iso-style offenses, or that he’s simply a basketball mind who understands what he’s looking at when he sees a roster and tries to run an offense dictated by the pieces of which it’s comprised.This year, he will presumably have at least one superior ball distributer in the backcourt as well as a wing player who can score from anywhere (presumably) with decent efficiency.Let’s see what he does before proclaiming him incapable of being able to properly recognize how the pieces on his roster fit. It’s like you all forget thatthe Knicks basically didn’t have any practices last year.

      I specifically said several times that I wasn’t saying he was incapable of it or that I was ruling it out. I was just arguing back against the notion that Woodson’s record should be seen as anything other than that of an iso-focused coach. I don’t dispute that it’s possible he’s willing to run a more balanced, versatile offense than the one he ran last year given the appropriate personnel, but I maintain that all the evidence suggests that he prefers to play a slower iso-focused style. He was the coach in Atlanta for six seasons. You don’t think that at any point he had a PG capable of running a more dynamic system, or any say in acquiring (or not, as the case may be) such personnel? If a coach runs one type of offense for six years I consider that a pretty strong indicator that it’s the sort of offense he prefers.

    62. jon abbey

      Hollinger makes a very strong case that ATL may be able to put together a Howard/Paul/Josh Smith core next summer now, all three with very strong local ties:

      “I’m not sure anybody has put together all the dots on this, but consider the following:

      • Josh Smith is from Atlanta.

      • Dwight Howard is from Atlanta.

      • Dwight Howard and Josh Smith played together in high school and remain friends; in fact Howard was the best man in Smith’s wedding.

      • Chris Paul is not from Atlanta, but is from North Carolina and wanted to play in Atlanta coming out of college.

      • Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and Josh Smith all will be free agents this summer.

      • Dwight Howard’s main target in 2013 free agency, Brooklyn, just used up all it potential cap space in Monday’s trade with Atlanta.

      • Atlanta now has only two players under contract for next season, center Al Horford and first-round pick John Jenkins, and will have well north of $40 milion in cap room.

      • Atlanta could rather easily trade Horford, an All-Star center with a below-market contract, to create more room if needed.

      Yes, this is the real endgame for Atlanta: Not just Howard, but Howard and CP3. The Hawks are now in position to do it, and can get to that point in several different ways.”

    63. Robtachi

      thenamestsam: I specifically said several times that I wasn’t saying he was incapable of it or that I was ruling it out. I was just arguing back against the notion that Woodson’s record should be seen as anything other than that of an iso-focused coach. I don’t dispute that it’s possible he’s willing to run a more balanced, versatile offense than the one he ran last year given the appropriate personnel, but I maintain that all the evidence suggests that he prefers to play a slower iso-focused style. He was the coach in Atlanta for six seasons. You don’t think that at any point he had a PG capable of running a more dynamic system, or any say in acquiring (or not, as the case may be) such personnel? If a coach runs one type of offense for six years I consider that a pretty strong indicator that it’s the sort of offense he prefers.

      Simply looking at the numbers and depth charts from 2004-2010, the best PG Woodson ever had in Atlanta, and by a wide margin, was a slightly less-mummified Mike Bibby. So there’s that. Now, was that by his own design? I’m not sure. He was a first-time coach, so you have to wonder how much input he had in acquiring Joe Johnson who clearly took the role of the primary (read: only) ball-handler in 2005, which dictated how that offense was run. So, did the coach initiate that, or the player? I’m inclined to say it was a combination of the organization and the player without too much regard for the coach because, let’s face it, the NBA is driven by two things; the star players and the money

    64. Brian Cronin

      By the way, regarding the Suns sign and trade deal, here is why I think they would have the leverage to insist on Shumpert being included. If they don’t get Shump, what do they really get out of the deal? They supposedly really like Fields. Fair enough. But the deal they’d have to sign to get him in the trade would almost certainly be too much for the Knicks to match if they just signed him to it on their own, right? For the trade to work, they’d have to sign Fields to a $5 million salary. Is there any way that the Knicks would seriously match a $5 million offer to Landry Fields? Especially with Mike Woodson as coach? I say no way. And if not, then how does it benefit the Suns to make the deal? None of the other pieces are worth anything to the Suns. Adding Shumpert, though, surely would.

    65. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin:
      By the way, regarding the Suns sign and trade deal, here is why I think they would have the leverage to insist on Shumpert being included. If they don’t get Shump, what do they really get out of the deal? They supposedly really like Fields. Fair enough. But the deal they’d have to sign to get him in the trade would almost certainly be too much for the Knicks to match if they just signed him to it on their own, right? For the trade to work, they’d have to sign Fields to a $5 million salary. Is there any way that the Knicks would seriously match a $5 million offer to Landry Fields? Especially with Mike Woodson as coach? I say no way. And if not, then how does it benefit the Suns to make the deal? None of the other pieces are worth anything to the Suns. Adding Shumpert, though, surely would.

      I think it would just be a favor to Nash on his way out of town, not hurting Phoenix and getting Nash a somewhat comparable salary to what Toronto offered him in a place he wanted to be more.

    66. jon abbey

      plus probably the $3M in cash that Dolan has been allowed again to give since yesterday, we wouldn’t want that burning a hole in his pocket for too long. :)

    67. Brian Cronin

      That’s what I mean, though. If they do the deal, it would pretty much just to help the Knicks and Nash out. So that’s what I mean by them having enough leverage to ask for Shump. The only guy that the Knicks are offering that the Suns actually want the Suns can get without doing the deal, so the current offer is not a matter of “Fields is better than nothing” but rather, “You’re going to lose him anyways, could you at least help him get to a team he wants to go to?” Now, getting Shump is not only better than nothing, that is a downright great deal for the Suns.

    68. nicos

      Brian Cronin:
      The Hornets would match a MAX offer from another team for Eric Gordon, right?

      Is there another team that would offer him a max deal? He’s missed 20,26, and 57 games in the last three years (I’d also mention that his TS% has dropped every year as well but we know plenty of gm’s would ignore that). That’s got to be a pretty big red flag for anybody. Maybe NO gives him a max deal- in part to justify the Chris Paul trade- but I’d be surprised to see anyone else offer him more than 12m a year.

      As for the Suns helping the Knicks- does the fact that Amar’e already left the Suns for NY hurt the Knicks? Does Sarver now want to grease the wheels to let his best player head off to a big market team? It’s a different situation in that the Suns have already offered him more than the Knicks can pay him and I think the Suns would try to do right by Nash if only for PR purposes. Still, you have to think it’d rankle Sarver a bit to see Nash head here.

    69. Brian Cronin

      Is there another team that would offer him a max deal?

      Apparently the Suns are preparing to offer him the max, which is why I was wondering what NO will do. I think they’ll match, but it is a toughie.

      Still, you have to think it’d rankle Sarver a bit to see Nash head here.

      Here’s an area where D’Antoni not being the coach does help, as Sarver hates D’Antoni, so I bet there’s no way he’d do the deal if D’Antoni was the coach here.

    70. massive

      Marshall, Gordon, Fields, Morris, and Gortat is a nice, young nucleus for Phoenix. I think sending Nash to NY for Fields and $3 million looks better than losing him for nothing if they get Gordon.

    71. Brian Cronin

      Again, though, if they want Fields, they can just sign him. Heck, I doubt the Knicks would even match an offer for less than they would have to give him for the Nash sign and trade deal to work.

    72. Kurt

      “Any” offense might not be accurate. Nash didn’t work well under the brief Terry Porter offense in Phoenix.

      “Steve Nash is a great fit in any offense. Perhaps folks forgot that he put up ridiculously efficient numbers with isolation specialists — Nowitzki, Finley, Jamison, Van Exel, Walker.”

    73. Kurt

      Nicos and ruruland:

      Even better would be Lin starting pick and roll with Chandler with Nash off the ball with Melo either in the strong side corner or up top. so helping off him is impossible.

      Nash would be deadly off the ball, as he is one of the best shooters of all time. Helping off him or Amar’e leads to a Nash open 3 or Amar’e handoff to Nash, leading to a nostalgic Nash-Amar’e pick and roll, which would be even deadlier since it would be off ball reversal before defense could recover. Help off Chandler and he has easy dunk, as Nash would definitely find him.

    74. Kurt

      Just got to this comment: definitely agree.

      Even with Melo out you could be looking at having a Nash/Amar’e on one side and Chandler/Lin on the other with a shooter like Novak or Smith to take all of the easy shots they’d create..

    75. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Funny, ruruland. Michael Lewis wrote a book about a group of people who spent much of their lives in baseball, much of it surrounded by great coaches and other baseball minds. I won’t spoil it for you, but guess what happened to those people?

      That’s a different argument.

    76. ruruland

      thenamestsam:
      @Ruru I’m not trying to say that there’s no chance that Woodson will run a more diversified offense, or that he secretly loves playing uptempo ball with multiple penetrating PGs and very little isolation. All I was doing was disputing that there was any evidence to that affect, an argument which your post seems to concede for the most part. Sure the Knicks didn’t have many options after Lin went down, but it doesn’t change the fact that any claims that Woodson ran a versatile offense are based on a 10 day period immediately after he took over in which they played 7 games. How much change do you realistically think he could have instituted in that time? The far larger body of evidence is that he is a coach who prefers to play a slow it down offense based around isolation and set plays. Like I said, maybe he has purely been a slave to personnel during the other 6+ years of his experience as a coach, and those 10 days reveal who he truly is. I find that quite unlikely.

      Mike Dantoni has also spent his life in basketball, most of it surrounded by good coaches. Did that stop him from dogmatically running an offense that was ill-suited to the personnel on hand? I think you know the answer to that one.

      Main difference is that MDA’s offense was a “system”. Isolation is not a “system.”

    77. ruruland

      Robtachi: Mike Woodson isn’t the architect of some radically dogmatic isolationoffensive system the way MDA was irreversibly married to his, so the comparison is inherently flawed.

      So far in his coaching career, Woodson has shown a proclivity toward running isolation-heavy offenses when presented with a roster ill-suited for much else.That’s either a sign that he prefers iso-style offenses, or that he’s simply a basketball mind who understands what he’s looking at when he sees a roster and tries to run an offense dictated by the pieces of which it’s comprised.This year, he will presumably have at least one superior ball distributer in the backcourt as well as a wing player who can score from anywhere (presumably) with decent efficiency.Let’s see what he does before proclaiming him incapable of being able to properly recognize how the pieces on his roster fit. It’s like you all forget thatthe Knicks basically didn’t have any practices last year.

      Thanks. If Lin is healthy I guarantee you’ll see reduction in overal isolations.

    78. ruruland

      Kurt:
      Nicos and ruruland:

      Even better would be Lin starting pick and roll with Chandler with Nash off the ball with Melo either in the strong side corner or up top. so helping off him is impossible.

      Nash would be deadly off the ball, as he is one of the best shooters of all time. Helping off him or Amar’e leads to a Nash open 3 or Amar’e handoff to Nash, leading to a nostalgic Nash-Amar’e pick and roll, which would be even deadlier since it would be off ball reversal before defense could recover. Help off Chandler and he has easy dunk, as Nash would definitely find him.

      Right.

      People are conflating the arguments about marginal returns with off-ball plays and efficiency.

      Off ball plays, or assisted basket plays, are almost always more efficient than on-ball plays for most players in the league.

      Wade had his second most efficient last season because a higher proportion of his plays were “off-ball”. Lebron set his career efficiency mark last year for the same reason.

      I don’t know this for fact, but it’s quite easy to deduce that lower usage actually means= higher proportion of off-ball plays.

      Both Lin and Nash would be extremely efficient off the ball, and with pnr finishers, drivers and shooters, the Knicks would be virtually impossible to defend.

    79. ruruland

      Kurt:
      “Any” offense might not be accurate. Nash didn’t work well under the brief Terry Porter offense in Phoenix.

      “Steve Nash is a great fit in any offense. Perhaps folks forgot that he put up ridiculously efficient numbers with isolation specialists — Nowitzki, Finley, Jamison, Van Exel, Walker.”

      Nash had a TS over 600 with Porter. Nash is an elite offensive player regardless of what kind of system he plays so long as he has the ball in his hands some of the time…..

    80. ruruland

      Robtachi: Simply looking at the numbers and depth charts from 2004-2010, the best PG Woodson ever had in Atlanta, and by a wide margin, was a slightly less-mummified Mike Bibby. So there’s that. Now, was that by his own design? I’m not sure.He was a first-time coach, so you have to wonder how much input he had in acquiring Joe Johnson who clearly took the role of the primary (read: only) ball-handler in 2005, which dictated how that offense was run. So, did the coach initiate that, or the player? I’m inclined to say it was a combination of the organization and the player without too much regard for the coach because, let’s face it, the NBA is driven by two things; the star players and the money

      Isolation can be good offense. Bibby was never a pnr pg.

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