Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, April 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Feb 20 2012)

  • [New York Times] Knicks 104, Mavericks 97: Lin Takes Care of Nowitzki and Mavericks, Putting Knicks Back on Track (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:24:05 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin had 28 points and a career-high 14 assists as the Knicks registered their most significant win of the season, against the defending N.B.A. champions.

  • [New York Times] Smith’s Debut: Show Up, Suit Up and Fire Them Up (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:30:09 GMT)
    Without the benefit of a single practice to learn the plays, J. R. Smith took 16 shots and scored 15 points in his Knicks debut.

  • [New York Times] ESPN Fires Employee for Slur in Lin Headline (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:30:09 GMT)
    ESPN said it had suspended one person and fired another for using an ethnic slur last week in reference to the Knicks’ Jeremy Lin.

  • [New York Times] In Defeat, Mavericks Praise Knicks’ Lin (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:39:05 GMT)
    After Jeremy Lin helped end the Mavericks’ six-game winning streak, Shawn Marion praised Lin’s patience and ability to reset on offense.

  • [New York Times] Jeremy Lin’s Fans Include Former High School Teammates (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:39:05 GMT)
    Among the Madison Square Garden crowd watching Jeremy Lin on Sunday were his Palo Alto High School coach and several of Lin’s ex-teammates.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Kevin Durant Scores 51 as Thunder Beat Nuggets in Overtime (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:30:09 GMT)
    Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook of the Oklahoma City Thunder combined for 91 points in a 124-118 win over the Denver Nuggets.

  • [New York Times] Kobe Lets Lakers Management Have It Over Gasol (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:17:32 GMT)
    The Los Angeles Lakers’ worst performance of the season set the stage for Kobe Bryant to take aim at his team’s management, a clear signal that all is not well for the perennial power out West.

  • [New York Times] Durant Finally Breaks 50, OKC Edges Denver 124-118 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:05:48 GMT)
    With two NBA scoring titles to his credit, it seemed inevitable that Kevin Durant would eventually hit the 50-point plateau.

  • [New York Times] Kobe Criticizes Lakers About Potential Gasol Trade (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:17:30 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant lashed out at Los Angeles Lakers management Sunday night for leaving teammate Pau Gasol wondering whether he’s about to be traded.

  • [New York Times] Durant Scores 51 as Thunder Top Nuggets 124-118 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:17:49 GMT)
    Kevin Durant scored a career-best 51 points for the top performance in the NBA this season, Russell Westbrook added 40 and Serge Ibaka had his first career triple-double as the Oklahoma City Thunder beat the Denver Nuggets 124-118 in overtime Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Dudley, Suns Hold Off Kobe and Lakers 102-90 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 03:53:47 GMT)
    Jared Dudley scored a season-high 25 points, Marcin Gortat had 21 points and 15 rebounds and the Phoenix Suns held on to beat the Los Angeles Lakers 102-90 Sunday night, ending a four-game losing streak.

  • [New York Times] Ilyasova Has 20-20 Night to Lead Bucks Over Nets (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 03:30:02 GMT)
    Ersan Ilyasova had career highs of 29 points and 25 rebounds, and the Milwaukee Bucks snapped a four-game losing streak with a 92-85 victory over New Jersey on Sunday night, spoiling the season debut of Nets center Brook Lopez.

  • [New York Times] Love Leads Wolves Past 76ers With Late FTs, 92-91 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:44:51 GMT)
    Kevin Love scored 12 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter, including a pair of free throws with 0.1 seconds, to lead the Minnesota Timberwolves to a 92-91 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Houston Beats Utah 101-85 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:42:39 GMT)
    Kyle Lowry scored 32 points and Luis Scola had 26 and the Houston Rockets fought off a late run from the Utah Jazz and went on to a 101-85 win on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Irving’s 2 FTs Give Cavs 93-92 Win Over Kings (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:18:16 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving’s two free throws with 0.4 seconds remaining gave the Cleveland Cavaliers a 93-92 win over Sacramento on Sunday night, extending the Kings’ losing streak to five games.

  • [New York Times] Hibbert Leads Pacers to 108-73 Win Over Bobcats (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:15:12 GMT)
    First-time All-Star Roy Hibbert had 18 points and 14 rebounds to lead the Indiana Pacers to a 108-73 win over the Charlotte Bobcats on Sunday.

  • [New York Times] Pistons Beat Celtics 96-81 for 7th Win in 9 Games (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:15:16 GMT)
    Greg Monroe had 17 points, 10 rebounds and seven assists, and Rodney Stuckey added 16 points to lead the surging Detroit Pistons over the Boston Celtics 96-81 on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] Sports of The Times: Sports’ Recent Breakout Stars Shine Light on Those Left Out (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:49:03 GMT)
    The Tim Tebow and Jeremy Lin phenomenons have prompted this question: When was the last time a young, untested professional African-American athlete had been on the receiving end of this type of adulation?

  • [New York Times] The Media Equation: Jeremy Lin Media Hype Stumbles on Race – Media Equation (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:03:02 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin’s hot streak for the Knicks over the past week has threatened the tabloid supply of puns and superlatives, where “Lincredible” was just the beginning.

  • [New York Post] Lin, Knicks teammates stoke championship talk behind Jeremy’s big game (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:39:32 -0500)
    After Jeremy Lin’s nationally televised theatrics were over, after the point guard’s international stardom had reached yet another level, after Jason Kidd said Lin indeed looks like Steve Nash in Phoenix, Tyson Chandler soaked it all in and declared what may have become obvious by now:
    Lin’s…

  • [New York Post] Fairy tale getting â??real’ interesting (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:15:25 -0500)
    We can stop dealing in the abstract, cease the comparisons to Joe Hardy and Roy Hobbs and Jimmy Chitwood. This isn’t fantasy. This isn’t a Hollywood script. We can shelve the superlatives and move on to two emerging truths:
    Jeremy Lin is real.
    And because of that, the…

  • [New York Post] Time for Carmelo to fit lin (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:41:31 -0500)
    Carmelo Anthony â?? Pardon the Linterruption â?? finally gets his chance tonight against the Nets to ride this blue-and-orange wave of Linsanity and begin to truly define his New York basketball legacy, his chance to answer a question that has been asked of all the stars who come to New York for…

  • [New York Post] Smith comes out firing in first bow at MSG (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:52:44 -0500)
    He came mostly because of Carmelo Anthony, partly because of Mike D’Antoni’s offense and partly to be back in the region where he was raised.
    Back from a stint playing in China, J.R. Smith, the former Nuggets shooting guard out of Freehold, N.J., made his Knicks…

  • [New York Post] PG takes â??D’ out of Dallas (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:52:44 -0500)
    Some people still may think Jeremy Lin is a fluke. Just don’t count the Mavericks among them.The NBA’s defending champions treated the Knicks point guard like a force to be reckoned with, putting 6-foot-7 Shawn Marion, one of the league’s elite perimeter defenders, on Lin for…

  • [New York Post] Painful reunion for Tyson (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:52:44 -0500)
    Tyson Chandler should have been smiling from ear to ear in the locker room yesterday after his Knicks whipped his former team, the Mavericks, justifying his decision to leave Dallas. But he was in too much pain.
    Chandler took two tumbles in the 104-97 Garden matinee win, and was in…

  • [New York Post] Novak a hot shot in role of Mr. 3′s (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:04:51 -0500)
    Steve Novak made little impact in the first three quarters of yesterday’s slugfest between the Knicks and the Mavericks at the Garden, missing one 3-pointer and grabbing one rebound in 11:27 of playing time.
    But by the time the game ended, Novak had hit four 3-pointers, scored 14…

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy Lin slur was â??honest mistake’ (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:00:19 GMT)
    The ESPN editor fired Sunday for using “chink in the armor” in a headline about Knicks phenom Jeremy Lin said the racial slur never crossed his mind – and he was devastated when he realized his mistake.

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy scores 26, but Knick streak ends at 7 (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:25:03 GMT)
    Two weeks of Lin-sanity and everything that entails finally got the best of Jeremy Lin. He’s no longer undefeated, no longer invincible and the Knicks winning streak is over.

  • [New York Daily News] ESPN fires writer for racist headline (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:05:07 GMT)
    Fresh off a new hardwood triumph, Knicks phenom Jeremy Lin brushed off ESPN’s tasteless “chink in the armorâ? headline Sunday, saying he didn’t think anyone meant to be racist.

  • [New York Daily News] J.R. a big shot in Knicks debut (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:32:03 GMT)
    J.R. Smith grew up in New Jersey. He knows what it means to make a good first impression at Madison Square Garden. He definitely understood the importance of making an immediate impact.

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy: Stop the Linsanity on kin (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:28:38 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin already has admitted being a media phenomenon these past few weeks has been physically and emotionally taxing. But he doesn’t want his family back in Taiwan to undergo the same experience.

  • [New York Daily News] Chapman tweets racially charged joke about Knicks’ Lin (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:28:22 GMT)
    Former University of Kentucky star Rex Chapman made a racially charged joke via Twitter after the Knicks 104-97 win over the defending NBA Champion Dallas Mavericks on Sunday.

  • [New York Daily News] Lin and Knicks bounce back, drop Mavs (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:31:03 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin scored 28 points with a career-high 14 assists as the Knicks rallied from a 12-point second half deficit to defeat the defending NBA champion Dallas Mavericks 104-97 at the Garden.

  • [New York Daily News] Sharpton, MSNBC jump on Lin wagonALL  (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:59:27 GMT)
    The Rev. Al Sharpton says Jeremy Lin gives “Americans hope again” in a “Lean Forwardâ? ad for MSNBC. In the 90-second clip, Sharpton refers to Lin’s surprise success, saying, “It’s about looking past the surface, beyond the stereotypes, and giving unlikely people a chance.”

  • [New York Daily News] Chandler shakes off injuries vs. old team (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:53:25 GMT)
    Tyson Chandler rubbed his sore right wrist and grimaced when he talked about landing hard on his tailbone. The Knicks’ starting center took a beating against his former club on Sunday, but not even the pain he was feeling could ruin his mood.

  • [New York Daily News] Novak goes Linsane from downtown (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:41:47 GMT)
    His pun-driven catch phrases â?? Novakaine and Novak Strokeavic, among them â?? really haven’t caught on yet across the Twitterverse. But Steve Novak has experienced a few Linsane moments of his own.

  • [New York Daily News] Lin-sational Garden phenom fouls up Mavs (Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:59:25 GMT)
    Standing at the old freight elevator at the Garden, Mark Cuban had a chance to complain about the officiating after Jeremy Lin and the Knicks on Sunday afternoon rode emotion, momentum and timely 3-point shooting to another impressive win in the Lin era.

  • 91 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Feb 20 2012)

    1. er

      Hey guys i know this is off topic from the great game but i found an interesting article from an SI interview with Kmart about melo
      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/02/19/kenyon.martin/

      It seems fair to say that melos “selfishness” has been an espn/media creation
      Jr smith came to play with him he helped push JLin into the lineup so im quite sure hes a good teammate ….who happens to take bad shots from time to time but not selfish and he does want to win

    2. ess-dog

      “Novak Strokeavic” LOL, that’s a good one.

      I really ripped the guy early on, but his shot is so pure… and now he’s doing a lot of little things like grabbing rebounds and making the extra pass. He’s even adequate on defense.

      Clearly a ball-dominant “find the open man” point guard was the key that unlocked the D’Antoni system. It makes you wonder why we didn’t actually get one early on in D’Antoni’s tenure.

      As for the Melo stuff, I could care less. I just want to see him play. Forget the fact that he makes about 700 times more $$ than Novak, he’s another good player to add to the mix.

      Just like JR Smith. I was surprised at how explosive Smith was yesterday. The focus has been so much on his shooting, but he’s also extremely fast to the basket. Between him and Shump that’s a lot of athleticism.

      This is really a new era in Knicks basketball. Soak it in, boys!

    3. d-mar

      Not that Lin needs more accolades, but I think he’s actually improved us on the defensive end as well. He’s involved in a lot of the trapping and doubling, and has really quick hands (5 steals yesterday) We’ve just become a really solid defensive team, so now Barkley and all the other idiots can just shut up about D’Antoni teams not playing a lick of defense.

    4. Gideon Zaga

      Its funny how you guys are never objective about anything, we shot our way into the win last night. Now everyone’s acting like the guy can walk on water. To me he is good, not great, i still love him. He needs to improve his weak hand dribble and finish with his weak hand and also the free throws. The free throws are a biggie, whats the point of getting superstar treatment if u aint knocking em down.

    5. Bruno Almeida

      Gideon Zaga:
      Its funny how you guysare never objective about anything, we shot our way into the win last night. Now everyone’s acting like the guy can walk on water. To me he is good, not great, i still love him. He needs to improve his weak hand dribble and finish with his weak hand and also the free throws. The free throws are a biggie, whats the point of getting superstar treatment if u aint knocking em down.

      well, true objectivity is not possible, we all, like it or not, put subjectivity into our thoughts…

      the point is trying to be as objective as possible, to try to see things in the most unbiased way possible, but that’s pretty hard to do.

      it’s still sports, after all.

    6. Caleb

      As much as the Knicks “look” better on O, they’ve dropped from #23 to #24 in the league since Linsanity began (not blaming him for that – it coincided with our best offensive player getting injured)… and meanwhile our D has gone from #10 to #8.

      I am not worried about the offense with Melo coming back – if he’s healthy, it’s going to help, a lot. The challenges are coming on D. Melo is a weak link there and Novak is pathetic on that end.

      On the bright side: Chandler can offer forgiveness for a lot of sins. And Lin is a big defensive upgrade on Bibby and the 2012-model Toney D.

      Sounds strange to be saying this, but cutting Stoudemire to 25 mpg or so might be necessary, at least until his health and his game comes back a bit. A frontcourt rotation of Stoudemire/Anthony/Novak puts a little too much pressure on Chandler & Jeffries.

    7. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah Lin for MVP!!!!

      Bruno Almeida: well, true objectivity is not possible, we all, like it or not, put subjectivity into our thoughts…

      the point is trying to be as objective as possible, to try to see things in the most unbiased way possible, but that’s pretty hard to do.

      it’s still sports, after all.

    8. massive

      The Knicks, playing at the 3rd fastest pace in the league, are currently 6th in DRtg. It’s only a matter of time before the offense catches up with all of the talent we have on that side of the ball.

    9. David Crockett

      ess-dog:

      Clearly a ball-dominant “find the open man” point guard was the key that unlocked the D’Antoni system.It makes you wonder why we didn’t actually get one early on in D’Antoni’s tenure.

      In many respects that was Duhon, who was at least as adept at the screen roll game as Lin. The difference is the shooting at every level. Duhon could run the offense, but he couldn’t finish at the rim reliably, had no mid-range game, nor a reliable jump shot. (Other than that Mrs. Lincoln…) Ultimately, without the offense the passing lanes began to dry up. Teams would invite Duhon to penetrate and then try to cut off passing lanes, daring him to finish at the rim.

      What makes Lin so “uncanny” is that he is effective at every level.

      If Dolan can just manage to keep from doing anything stupid…

    10. bobneptune

      Gideon Zaga:
      Its funny how you guysare never objective about anything, we shot our way into the win last night. Now everyone’s acting like the guy can walk on water. To me he is good, not great, i still love him. He needs to improve his weak hand dribble and finish with his weak hand and also the free throws. The free throws are a biggie, whats the point of getting superstar treatment if u aint knocking em down.

      gz,

      i don’t think anyone says he’s perfect and he certainly needs to improve like everyone else making their first 9 nba starts in many areas.

      however, lin’s performance merits praise far better than a good player by any objective statistical metric, the eyeball test and won/lost record. he has crushed the trifecta of analysis

      lin per = 24.2, ws/48 = .179, 23.0 p/36 and 8.9 assist/36

      rose per = 24.8 ws/48 = .243 , 22.3p/36 and 7.9assists/36

      westbrook per = 23.3 ws/48 = .153 , 23.9 p/36 and 5.7 assists/36

      nash per = 22.7 , ws/48 = .166, 16.0 p/36 and 12.3 assists/36

      cp3 per =25.4, ws/48 = .252 18.3 p/36 and 8.7 assist/36

      that is pretty rarefied pg company and lin stacks up well. the enthusiasm isn’t fanboi driven, it is reality driven. the guy has played 9 games at a historic level for a novice and at all star caliber for a veteran. that is, by definition, far better than good.

      whether he can continue at that rate over long periods (years) is pure conjuncture, but its not like nate coming out of the dog house and putting up 42 a couple of years ago and then laying an egg the following nights. he played extremely well 9 consecutive games and has withstood game plans crafted specifically to stop him (like yesterday with matrix) and he has still prospered.

      getting back to your original point, purely objectively speaking by any overall metric you care to choose, as a starter, lin has played…

    11. bobneptune

      ess-dog:

      Clearly a ball-dominant “find the open man” point guard was the key that unlocked the D’Antoni system.It makes you wonder why we didn’t actually get one early on in D’Antoni’s tenure.

      >>>>>BN

      because like so many of you on this board erroneously believe point guards with lin’s specific skill set (run the pnr well, can pass weel out of the pnr, can finish at the rim in traffic, can take a pounding in the lane and get up and go right back at it the next time down the floor, have a mid range game and an improving game from distance) don’t usually fall out of the sky into your laps :-)

      only in some of your fantasies does all star level pg play often come via the waver wire .

    12. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

      Caleb:
      As much as the Knicks “look” better on O, they’ve dropped from #23 to #24 in the league since Linsanity began (not blaming him for that – it coincided with our best offensive player getting injured)… and meanwhile our D has gone from #10 to #8.

      I am not worried about the offense with Melo coming back – if he’s healthy, it’s going to help, a lot. The challenges are coming on D.Melo is a weak link there and Novak is pathetic on that end.

      On the bright side: Chandler can offer forgiveness for a lot of sins. And Lin is a big defensive upgrade on Bibby and the 2012-model Toney D.

      Sounds strange to be saying this, but cutting Stoudemire to 25 mpg or so might be necessary, at least until his health and his game comes back a bit. A frontcourt rotation of Stoudemire/Anthony/Novak puts a little too much pressure on Chandler & Jeffries.

      dude i have no idea were you have been getting your numbers but the knicks are 12 on offensive production and 13 on defensive production according to ESPN. i don’t remember the last time we were that good in both categories, especially this year.

    13. Caleb

      look at your efficiency #s… PPG is pointless if you’re ranking offenses and defenses.

      I’m as susprised as anyone, but our offense has sucked this year. Melo and Lin together, and getting anything from Stoudemire, should push us up the rankings but as Melo plays more the D will get worse, unless we make adjustments.

    14. JK47

      Yes, Bob, Lin is playing like an all-star and it was a incredible stroke of luck to find him, and his play has made the questionable contracts to Amar’e and Melo look like a lot better ideas than they were. No sarcasm here– I am being completely sincere.

      Now maybe move onto a different topic. This one is getting tired.

    15. ess-dog

      David Crockett: In many respects that was Duhon

      What makes Lin so “uncanny” is that he is effective at every level.

      Quality always makes a difference, right? Although Duhon had a nice 15 game stretch after the first 10 games of the season in ’08. Not Lin-like, but I remember at that point, people were really liking Duhon… Then the wheels fell off.
      But the physical limitations of Duhon were obvious. With Lin, I think the TOs will always be a bit of an issue as he doesn’t have the straight line speed of a Rose (which helps you escape traps.) Aside from that, the only other issue he has is the free throws which he can improve on somewhat.
      But he clearly has a Nash-like creativity to go along with hops and a killer instinct. If his worst case scenario is a Doc Rivers in his prime then sign me up, but with the weapons we have around him, it’s not totally crazy to hope for Steve Nash, is it?

    16. ess-dog

      Caleb:
      look at your efficiency #s… PPG is pointless if you’re ranking offenses and defenses.

      I’m as susprised as anyone, but our offense has sucked this year. Melo and Lin together, and getting anything from Stoudemire, should push us up the rankings but as Melo plays more the D will get worse, unless we make adjustments.

      I don’t know, we had Bill Walker out there a lot at sf. I don’t think Melo will hurt the D THAT much. It’s more on Amare IMO but I’m hopeful he can improve with another week under his belt.

    17. villainx

      @21, I love that Lin’s floor is still pretty darn good.

      Watching vs stat debate. Love watching this team play, fast pace and plenty of guys laying it on the line taking charge, throwing themselves around for steals, loose balls, and blocks.

    18. hoolahoop

      Tonight’s game is important for the knicks. They must win almost all of their games against sub-.500 teams because it’s difficult to win a high percentage of +.500 teams – and they face a lot of them for the remainder of the season.
      Also, Beating the bad teams builds confidence.
      If the knicks climb to the sixth seed, watch out.

    19. Spree8nyk8

      it’s definitely Amar’e. Melo’s +/- is 100 pts better than Amar’es for the season. We had to take Amar’e out yesterday so we could go on a run. He really has got to start figuring out things on D. We are going to need him in the playoffs.

    20. villainx

      I really want Stat to regain his form. After the Isiah moves got washed away, Stat helped bring some respectability and competetiveness back to the Knicks. And even though his defense has not been great, but his emphasis for improving the Knicks seem always to sound good, team play and defense.

    21. jon abbey

      who do people think is a good comparison for Lin’s game? forget about the (lack of) pedigree, whose game is the most similar? Nash? Tony Parker? Barea? any older players?

    22. villainx

      @27, I’m interested in people’s take on Lin’s comparison too.

      It’s not in all aspect of the game, but Lin reminds me most of Iverson. His fearlessness and tenacity in attaching the basket. And so far, how much the team depends on 1) the ball in his had and 2) Lin being the primary offense.

      That said, I want him to evolve more like Nash or Parker, able to dominate, but being more judicious about it. Dumping the ball at times to the other stars and role players to operate. Or even deferring to other players at time, as they emerge. Which is one reason I’m excited about JR Smith, he can be assertive and effective. And that’s also why Melo coming back or Stat doing his thing would be great.

      Basically and ideally, Lin being Lin but at around sub 20 field goal attempts.

    23. JK47

      Lin’s combination of high usage, high efficiency and high assist rate is pretty hard to find a comparison for. I mean, .581 TS% on 31.3 USG and a 50.0 AST are freakish numbers.

      I guess he’s sort of like Derrick Rose with twice the amount of turnovers.

    24. villainx

      I meant Lin like Iverson attacking, not attaching. Yeesh.

      Also to add to it, for their career, Iverson average more than 20 FGA, Nash less than 14.

    25. Z-man

      JK47: Yes, Bob, Lin is playing like an all-star and it was a incredible stroke of luck to find him, and his play has made the questionable contracts to Amar’e and Melo look like a lot better ideas than they were. No sarcasm here– I am being completely sincere.Now maybe move onto a different topic. This one is getting tired.

      bobneptune is on record saying that the disapproved of the Billups amnesty to sign Chandler. Really, bob, how much credibility do you have when you keep shouting at the wind at a deal that most here (even the hard-to-please Cock Jowles) thought was a no-brainer? Although Jowles did quickly revert to his cynical ways as soon as the team started playing badly, even gloating openly during the losing streak, twisting the knife so to speak.

      Despite your sour grapes, at least Jowles can say that PAWS40 liked Lin and Fields, and that even though he hated the Amare and Melo moves, he loved the Chandler move. Still can’t figure out what you had in mind with keeping Billups…

    26. Gideon Zaga

      No most of you are wrong. When I look at Lin, I see the penetration of Toney Parker, where he takes advantages of windows and his defenders lapses to get into the lane, he has the vision of Rondo yes Rondo not Nash where he probes the pnr forcing the defense to collapse so he can make the right pass, the fight of Rose where he never backs down no matter what and the big shot of Chauncey where he would just rise up and kill u with cold blood from 23 feet. What he doest have is the ball security and the escape dribble of Chris Paul, that deceptive and savvy nature of both Paul and Nash to get out of double teams, he doesn’t have that quick first step of rose or the explosion of a westbrook, that hang time that makes you go WOW!!! To me at the end of the day Lin is a product of D’antonis system, kind of like a smartphone maybe not the best or like the iPhone but still something like a windows phone which is effective bescause of the platform or in this case the system but with a added value of say flash player or in Lin’s case acceleration.

      jon abbey:
      who do people think is a good comparison for Lin’s game? forget about the (lack of) pedigree, whose game is the most similar? Nash? Tony Parker? Barea? any older players?

    27. PC

      Amare’s back is a major issue. He is obsessed with staying “upright” the entire game. If you watch him he looks like a stiff. He only runs/works hard when he has the ball in his hand. When Lin gets real deep into the paint, Amare doesn’t even cut to the hoop.

      I am really down on Amare. If he won’t bend his knees, then he won’t stop anyone on defense.

    28. Z-man

      jon abbey: who do people think is a good comparison for Lin’s game? forget about the (lack of) pedigree, whose game is the most similar? Nash? Tony Parker? Barea? any older players?

      He has elements of each, and they alll are fearless competitors. Probably the most like Nash with a much weaker left hand and less of a pure shooter. Parker is probably a better scorer around the rim, also with a better off-hand, but Lin has better court vision; Barea is more of a combo guard IMO, not a high assist guy.

      It is hard to really compare Lin to a 2-time MVP after 9 games, although Nash took a long time to get to that level and Lin has hit the ground running like nobody else since the merger. The thing that puts them in the same category with these guys, especially Nash, more than anything else is their very high B-ball IQ and leadership ability. How about JR Smith crediting Lin with helping him feel good about shooting the rock right off the bat?

    29. Gideon Zaga

      When it comes to D-will, I dunno but I have never seen him as a pg type of a player per se, although I think systems make players and coaching plays a big part, but I don’t think Deron is a guy who can rewrite the fate of his team with a bunch of B players even with lack of a system. I know Chris Paul can and did without another superstar for a couple of years. I dunno maybe I am biased and I just don’t like players who need other players to make them better. Deron is just a weird kind of pg, although put him in D’antonis system with Chandler and everyone else and he will average Lin’s numbers for a season.

      ess-dog: Deron Williams:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=willide01&y1=2008&p2=linje01&y2=2012

      Except we didn’t need to trade 4 high draft picks for Lin.:)

    30. Caleb

      JK47:
      Lin’s combination of high usage, high efficiency and high assist rate is pretty hard to find a comparison for.I mean, .581 TS% on 31.3 USG and a 50.0 AST are freakish numbers.

      I guess he’s sort of like Derrick Rose with twice the amount of turnovers.

      Anyone want to clear this up? I know Basketball Reference listed his 50.0 AST btu they don’t have him among their leaders, and ESPN has his assist rate at 25.4 which seems to make more sense given his raw assist totals, and usage rate.

      For comps and style, Nash does come to mind, but without the same shooting ability that made Stevie a 2-time MVP (among other reasons). Similar style, always pressuring the lane but looking to pass first, great court awareness, plus they have similar tools – excellent size, and good quickness but not Rose- or Iverson-like. Nash has a better left hand and a stronger handle all in all.

      Who else… Ramon Sessions? A friend of mine mentioned Johnny Dawkins.

      Deron Williams comes up a lot when you search for similar seasons, but I don’t really see it, style-wise. And Dwyane Wade.

      I was looking for PGs with good size, who are efficient scorers without being good 3-point shooters. Lin seems like a pass-first guy but not sure if he isn’t more of a natural scorer.

      But then I tried this!!!
      TS% > .55
      TOV% > 20
      more than 7 assists per 36
      more than 18 points per 36
      6’2 to 6’5

    31. Gideon Zaga

      My point exactly, I think Lin is more of a product of the system, the other guys seem like they are their own man but you’re right maybe it’s too early for comparisons.

      Z-man: He has elements of each, and they alll are fearless competitors. Probably the most like Nash with a much weaker left hand and less of a pure shooter.Parker is probably a better scorer around the rim, also with a better off-hand, but Lin has better court vision; Barea is more of a combo guard IMO, not a high assist guy.

      It is hard to really compare Lin to a 2-time MVP after 9 games, although Nash took a long time to get to that level and Lin has hit the ground running like nobody else since the merger.The thing that puts them in the same category with these guys, especially Nash, more than anything else is their very high B-ball IQ and leadership ability.How about JR Smith crediting Lin with helping him feel good about shooting the rock right off the bat?

    32. Caleb

      This is even more striking..
      TS% > .55
      TOV% > 20
      more than 7 assists per 36
      Usage rate over 20
      6’2 to 6’5

      You get Sergio Rodriguez, a guy named Dave Britton who played 2 games in 1981, 7 seasons of Nash and our own Mr. Lin. Amazingly Nash has never had a usage rate over 22.9; Lin is up over 31 – Carmelo territory!

    33. Spree8nyk8

      jon abbey:
      who do people think is a good comparison for Lin’s game? forget about the (lack of) pedigree, whose game is the most similar? Nash? Tony Parker? Barea? any older players?

      Guess I’m the only one that thinks Paul, he has a saavy way of knowing when he has to talk over a game like Paul does, and while he doesn’t quite have Pauls handle, but idk, thats maybe more of a vibe than anythiing else, but that is just what I see.

    34. Gideon Zaga

      But to me if Lin was devoid of MDA’s system, I would say he is Rondo with a jumpshot, especially the way he attacks the fastbreak is so Rondo Like. Often hitting the trailer or accelerating for a basket and the steals. Even the way he attacks the pnr is kinda like Rondo, where he exploits the part of the collapsing defense. I dont think he holds the probing dribble of a Nash or a Paul where they can weave their way into the defense and bring it back out all with that great sense of ball security and great command and control.

    35. JK47

      Lin doesn’t show up in B-R’s AST% leaders because he hasn’t played enough games/minutes to qualify.

    36. Gideon Zaga

      I dunno man that’s a bit of a stretch, I’ve seen Cp3 play a few times this season and I must say the guy is far above the rest of them, well maybe not Nash but it’s Definitely CP, Nash and the rest of them. Chris Paul is just so in control, it almost feels like you can never steal the ball oFf him, every play runs through him, he is just so involved and you can never trap him or get him out of bounds. When you watch him, you understand why the whole league would love to play with him.

      Spree8nyk8: Guess I’m the only one that thinks Paul, he has a saavy way of knowing when he has to talk over a game like Paul does, and while he doesn’t quite have Pauls handle, but idk, thats maybe more of a vibe than anythiing else, but that is just what I see.

    37. Caleb

      JK47:
      Lin doesn’t show up in B-R’s AST% leaders because he hasn’t played enough games/minutes to qualify.

      ok, I see —
      Basketball Reference’s Assist % is “an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he is on the floor.”

      ESPN lists Assist Ratio:
      “AST: Assist Ratio – the percentage of a player’s possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]”

      Lin has 50.0 AST% (2nd to Nash) and 25.4 Assist Ratio (36th among NBA PGs.

      fwiw, among full-time players only Chris Paul, John Stockton and Nash have managed a 50 AST%.

      I guess you get there by 1) being good; and 2) completely dominating the ball and having all offense run through you.

      Assist ratio seems like a more descriptive stat – depends less on your teammates and team strategy, although of course it will be affected by your role, i.e. are you asked to shoot or pass more.

    38. Frank

      Couple thoughts-
      Re the bobneptune thing- it is just as difficult to find outstanding PG play as it is to find outstanding C play, but it is MUCH easier to find competent PG play than competent C play. This is a league in which Kwame Brown just got a 7M contract, in which disappointing players like Dalembert etc. get $10M contracts- these are guys that will never be available for the MLE and they SUCK. Meanwhile, Ramon Sessions is getting paid 4-5M. Steve Nash prob will get the MLE next year. Luke Ridnour is below average but is passable and will probably only get the MLE or less.

      Re Lin comparables- how crazy is it that I looked at the comp between him and DWill (during his prime Jazz years no less!) and I was thinking I’d rather have Lin?

      I think Parker is a good comparison. Both super aggressive going to the rim, although Parker has the advantage in speed and Lin is bigger and stronger. Parker also had questions about his shooting but he’s turned into a pretty good shooter as his career has gone on.

    39. villainx

      I think when I hear about comparing game, I don’t necessarily think of Lin’s skills but how much of his overall effectiveness is tied to his dominating the ball, his scoring, and with his scoring, how it’s mainly due to his drives to the basket.

      The other players mentioned can be effective or have a well define game without necessarily attacking the basket most of the time (except for players like Rose or Iverson). Paul or Rondo or Stockton either have the ability or the complimentary players where it’s not necessarily them breaking down the defense, but also finding other players breaking down opposition defense and setting them up.

    40. Robert Silverman

      That’s right, they got the guy who wrote the song “Win in the End” that plays during the comeback montage that occurs at the end of the movie, Teen Wolf (where a non-wolf, 5’2″ Michael J. Fox leads his HS basketball team to victory — a victory that has little to do with the main “plot,” of Teen Wolf, as it were. But I digress…) to re-write the song w/Jeremy Lin-based lyrics.

      Enjoy

      http://deadspin.com/5886387/linsanity-reaches-its-cultural-apex-with-teen-wolf+inspired-song

    41. rururuland2

      Caleb:
      look at your efficiency #s… PPG is pointless if you’re ranking offenses and defenses.

      I’m as susprised as anyone, but our offense has sucked this year. Melo and Lin together, and getting anything from Stoudemire, should push us up the rankings but as Melo plays more the D will get worse, unless we make adjustments.

      Why do you keep saying that?

      You understand that’s what “Nuggets fans” said when Melo left?

      It’s not like Melo is replacing a stopper in the lineup. Maybe you ‘ought to consider that with a significant reduction in ball-handling play initiation and grappling on offense, he’ll have more energy on defense.

      Melo’s a good defender when he can exert the energy. He’s always been a very good man defender, and given he’s replacing the minutes of Walker, Novak and perhaps Fields (who’s statistically worse than Melo despite far less responsibility and minutes) Melo will probably improve the defense — at least it’s more plausible than him making it worse (though not quantifiable when opponent’s are taken into consideration).

      Did you know that the current Nuggets defensive rating (18th) is lower than it ever was with Melo?

      How could that be if Melo was such a horrible defender? Denver improved its backcourt defense by giving Lawson more minutes, they are playing a defensive stalwart Corey Brewer 25 minutes a game. They still have AAA etc al.

      Oh, and they have Gallo, who most on this board believe is a superior defender to Melo…..

      What gives?

      Did you know that Denver finished in the top 10 defensively three times in Melo’s tenure (with Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups as guards) falling below 13th only twice?

      Enough of this nonsense. Melo is going to play angry the rest of the year. And, at times, you’re going to see fantastic defense from him.

    42. Unreason

      I don’t expect him to sustain play at anything like Paul’s or Nash’s level. He can be very successful and fun to watch without being an all-time great. His style seems most similar to Parker’s and Rubio’s. I don’t think it takes anything away from him to think about his success in the context of his fit with his teammates in a particular offensive system. He focuses on that as the reason for his success and I think he’s right to do so. He’s in a good to succeed.

    43. rururuland2

      Gideon Zaga:
      kind of like a smartphone maybe not the best or like the iPhone but still something like a windows phone which is effective bescause of the platform or in this case the system but with a added value of say flash player or in Lin’s case acceleration.

      It’s not just the penetration of Parker it’s the finishing.

      You’re missing a HUGE part of his game by not talking about his finishing.

      Lin has 5-10 forays into the lane a game where he takes on at least one big at the rim, either making it, coming close to making or getting fouled.

      You are totally underselling his strength, dexterity, body control and leaping ability — he’s above average in each category and is ambidextrous (which is a HUGE).

      Tony Parker is a great finisher without the leaping ability because of his body control, strength (getting into the big).

      So, no, that has absolutely nothing to do with MDA’s system— that’s pure talent and ability.

      It’s not out of this world athleticism like Westbrook or Rose (and he may be their equals finishing and showing contact), but he’s a better pure finisher than Paul, certainly Nash, or really any other point guard.

      He’s a GREAT finisher.

      I agree on his handle (too high) — that’s what might set Paul apart from him.

      But there are too many dimensions to his game that are well above average — first step quickness, strength, vision, versatility of shots (runners of top of glass, double pump lay-ups where he uses english, mid-range and 3 and a bunch of floating shots in the paint area you just don’t see)

      the hesitation acceleration is byproduct of his first step and and strength keeping defender on his back without losing balance.

    44. Caleb

      @50 nonsense is right.

      Anyone who’s ever watched Melo play more than 5 minutes can see he is a bad defender – he can play decent man to man every now and then, but he’s completely oblivious to switches or anything happening away from the ball. And a C- for effort.

      If you rather have statistical analysis, he’s been in the league 9 years and every single season his team has allowed more points with him on the court. Most years, not even close. You can read up at 82games.com, or just look at last year when the knicks’ D with melo (and Billups) were dead last in the NBA.

      The nicest thing I can say about his D is that he’s better than Stoudemire and Steve Novak.

    45. Z-man

      Lin is not really ambidextrous (see: Nash), it is clear that he is much, much better with his right than his left. He has skills to his left, but that is a weak point for him right now.

    46. rururuland2

      Unreason:
      I don’t expect him to sustain play at anything like Paul’s or Nash’s level. He can be very successful and fun to watch without being an all-time great. His style seems most similar to Parker’s and Rubio’s. I don’t think it takes anything away from him to think about his success in the context of his fit with his teammates in a particular offensive system. He focuses on that as the reason for his success and I think he’s right to do so. He’s in a good to succeed.

      Success for any player is somewhat attributable to external factors (external to the player), it’s just the observers inability to recognize how the systems curtail or benefit certain players based on their often latent attributes.

      I don’t care what MJ says about himself, he was the ideal triangle player. Maybe he’s not QUITE as amazing in a different system where he can’t use his wonderful ability to move without the ball to get to his spots.

      Without a slashing point guard who creates 5-10 open looks (not necessarily by assist) Durant is not a .600TS guy (his turnover rate is remarkably high in isolation because his dribble is so high)

      Without fantastic screeners in Detroit 6 years ago Rip Hamilton is the Hamilton of the Wizards.

      Etc. etc.

    47. rururuland2

      Z-man:
      Lin is not really ambidextrous (see: Nash), it is clear that he is much, much better with his right than his left.He has skills to his left, but that is a weak point for him right now.

      I’m not talking about his dribble I’m talking about his finishing.

    48. Caleb

      I didn’t realize the Nugs had fallen off on defense.. (19th, after 16th the past 2 seasons). I don’t think it says that much about Carmelo, though. Nene and Birdman have played a lot less, due to injury. They also lost Kenyon Martin & Wilson Chandler, and swapped out Felton for Andre Miller. The last time their D was actually good (in 2008-2009), Martin and Nene played 30+ per game, Birdman played 25 and Anthony Carter was the PG. Or Balkman could take the credit!

    49. rururuland2

      Caleb:
      @50 nonsense is right.

      Anyone who’s ever watched Melo play more than 5 minutes can see he is a bad defender – he can play decent man to man every now and then, but he’s completely oblivious to switches or anything happening away from the ball. And a C- for effort.

      If you rather have statistical analysis, he’s been in the league 9 years and every single season his team has allowed more points with him on the court. Most years, not even close. You can read up at 82games.com, or just look at last year when the knicks’ D with melo (and Billups) were dead last in the NBA.

      The nicest thing I can say about his D is that he’s better than Stoudemire and Steve Novak.

      Melo has been below average defensively in NY thus far (though the stretch where the Knicks turned it around last year against Orlando and NJ and got on that winning streak he was really good)

      And , yes, Melo has had long periods of poor defense. But he’s also had long stretches of very good defense. 2008 he was fantastic defensively (and the team was better with him on the floor).

      George Karl traditionally stacked his second units with defensive specialists (Anthony Carter, Chris Andersen, Najera, Greg Buckner)

      The philosophy behind that strategy was that Denver couldn’t create offense with Melo off the floor, so they created it with their best turnover and run units.

      But, I can understand your perspective given you’ve watched Melo for around 45 games with a heavy offensive burden.

    50. jon abbey

      the Nuggets also lost JR Smith, who just based on yesterday looked like a competent defender at the least when he wants.

      interesting comparisons, I guess Nash really is the best. the only one I strongly disagree with is Rondo, who is a singular freak and a game-changer on both D and on the boards. Lin can do a lot of things, but he’ll never be able to guard LeBron successfully as Rondo has done in the past.

    51. Caleb

      I’d say Melo has gotten better over his career, but is still a weak link on defense.

      just to button up the Denver talk, here is the Melo on/off court splits the past five years:

      per 48 minutes
      on-court off-court
      2006-2007 109.1 103.1
      2007-2008 108.6 103.9
      2008-2009 107.7 107.8
      2009-2010 109.2 108.1
      2010-2011 109.9 107.5 (Denver)
      2010-2011 114.2 110.4 (New York)
      2011-2012 103.1 99.4

      I don’t know enough about the Nuggests lineups to say what was happening, but it does look like a pattern.

      I know this kind of +/- is super-rough, though. For example, the Knicks this year are giving up 5 points more with Tyson Chandler on the floor, than off. Doesn’t mean he’s playing bad D.

    52. Nick C.

      rururuland2: It’s not just the penetration of Parker it’s the finishing. You’re missing a HUGE part of his game by not talking about his finishing. Lin has 5-10 forays into the lane a game where he takes on at least one big at the rim, either making it, coming close to making or getting fouled. You are totally underselling his strength, dexterity, body control and leaping ability — he’s above average in each category and is ambidextrous (which is a HUGE). Tony Parker is a great finisher without the leaping ability because of his body control, strength (getting into the big).So, no, that has absolutely nothing to do with MDA’s system— that’s pure talent and ability. It’s not out of this world athleticism like Westbrook or Rose (and he may be their equals finishing and showing contact), but he’s a better pure finisher than Paul, certainly Nash, or really any other point guard. He’s a GREAT finisher. I agree on his handle (too high) — that’s what might set Paul apart from him.But there are too many dimensions to his game that are well above average — first step quickness, strength, vision, versatility of shots (runners of top of glass, double pump lay-ups where he uses english, mid-range and 3 and a bunch of floating shots in the paint area you just don’t see)the hesitation acceleration is byproduct of his first step and and strength keeping defender on his back without losing balance.

      That’s what I don’t get about all the “product of the system” comments. Is there a system that doesn’t encourage penetration by the PG? I think it is not so easy to do what he has done so the system comments come off as either sour grapes (as noted in another thread re: Jason Terry) or thinly veiled ethnocentrism. And that doesn’t explain yesterday when no plays were run (allegedly).

    53. JK47

      The Knicks didn’t play “the system” at all yesterday. D’Antoni more or less admitted that they were playing pickup-style street ball most of the time. Lin played pretty freaking amazing in that game, so to say he’s a product of “the system” is stretching it. He’s a good basketball player, period.

      Regarding Melo’s defense, I think he’s actually been pretty decent this year. I don’t find myself screaming at him all that often, and I think the Synergy stats find him to be a pretty competent man defender. Maybe somebody with a Synergy account can shed more light on this. The Knicks are #6 overall in defensive rating, mainly because they generate loads of turnovers and do very well on the defensive glass. As the Knicks’ schedule gets tougher I expect their defensive rating to start slipping in the rankings.

    54. Caleb

      I think some people say “product of the system” because they only look at per-game #s, and in that sense, the system helps – it puts the ball in the PGs hands full-time, and lets him make all the decisions, so you get a huge usage rate and good per-game #s.

      But of course Lin has been very efficient – not just logging big minutes and pumping up the #s.

    55. bobneptune

      Z-man: bobneptune is on record saying that the disapproved of the Billups amnesty to sign Chandler.

      i didn’t say i opposed amnestying billups per se, just with the notion of addressing a hole at center by creating a chasm at the point, which i think is the most important position on the floor.

      i was screaming to all the fanbois (and you could look it up) that toney d sucked as a point and it was obvious to anyone not looking through orange and blue glasses.

      my criticism of the chandler move wasn’t his ability, but rather spending all your future flexibility on chandler and having a black hole at point. as it turned out i was 100% correct and even with chandler playing at as high a level imaginable, they were 8 and 15. everyone seems t gloss over that fact.

      but then the man who fell to earth landed on there heads so the move was genius. well played gm.

      i don’t know how many ways to say this but chandler is a very good player, but the way he was acquired opened a gaping hole at point which is a fairly important position in the game of basketball. without some intervention from above, the knicks likely would not make the playoffs this year. think about what a state of absolute chaos they were in at 8 and 15. how many of the last 9 would they have won with zombie bibby and toney d running the show. bye bye season!

      that’s my opinion and i don’t quite understand how it is so outside the realm of reality.

    56. Gideon Zaga

      Actually yes, in the triangle you don’t need a penetrating point god. Even Orlando’s offense doesn’t require penetration for it to work.

      Nick C.: That’s what I don’t get about all the “product of the system” comments. Is there a system that doesn’t encourage penetration by the PG? I think it is not so easy to do what he has done so the system comments come off as either sour grapes (as noted in another thread re: Jason Terry) or thinly veiled ethnocentrism.And that doesn’t explain yesterday when no plays were run (allegedly).

    57. jon abbey

      because if they had kept Billups and hadn’t gotten Chandler they would have had a gaping hole at center, which is much harder to fill. there are maybe 10 solid centers in the league (that might be generous), and probably 50-60 guys who can do an adequate job at PG given a chance.

    58. ruruland

      Caleb:
      I’d say Melo has gotten better over his career, but is still a weak link on defense.

      just to button up the Denver talk, here is the Melo on/off court splits the past five years:

      per 48 minutes on-court off-court
      2006-2007 109.1 103.1
      2007-2008 108.6 103.9
      2008-2009 107.7 107.8
      2009-2010 109.2 108.1
      2010-2011 109.9 107.5 (Denver)
      2010-2011 114.2 110.4 (New York)
      2011-2012 103.1 99.4

      I don’t know enough about the Nuggests lineups to say what was happening, but it does look like a pattern.

      I know this kind of +/- is super-rough, though. For example, the Knicks this year are giving up 5 points more with Tyson Chandler on the floor, than off. Doesn’t mean he’s playing bad D.

      right. AND Dallas defense has gotten better since he left. (statistically)

      If you look at Melo’s opp. PER over his career he”s always been above average at his position.

      Good man defender who often struggles in team defense help situations, overal doesn’t really factor much into outcomes, zero net sum.

      I’m looking forward to people’s reactions after they witness his improved energy on defense in a post Lin environment

    59. ruruland

      Nick C.: That’s what I don’t get about all the “product of the system” comments. Is there a system that doesn’t encourage penetration by the PG? I think it is not so easy to do what he has done so the system comments come off as either sour grapes (as noted in another thread re: Jason Terry) or thinly veiled ethnocentrism.And that doesn’t explain yesterday when no plays were run (allegedly).

      Right, it’s not only a severely limited way of framing the concept, it’s flat out the opposite.

      Lin was not only not running within the normal motion, he was beating traps.

      He put up 28 -14 against a great defense solely focused on getting the ball out of his hands.

    60. jon abbey

      meanwhile, the more time this team gets to gel, the better, which is why I think it’s crucial we get into the top six seeds and avoid Miami/Chicago in the first round. I think beating either of those teams is possible, but more likely in the second round with another few weeks to develop chemistry.

    61. Gideon Zaga

      So yes he is a product of the system. People have come out to say that of they we’re also given the keys to offenses they will also probably put up big numbers by games end. It’s just like that. Remember Terry Porter replaced Dontoni in Phoenix and tried to do a low post offense with Shaq, he ended up being fired after 45 games. Systems make players, remember that even Nash as great as he is wasn’t that great in Dallas. To me coaches matter a lot or at least coaches that come with systems. There are 3 types of coaches, the care taker type Paul Allen, Byron Scotts, the system coaches Dantoni, Tex Winter, and the high level coaches or the adaptive ones Pat Riley, Zen Master, George Karl, Popps and maybe Rivers. It’s not a stretch to say a player is a product of the system, Raymond Felton went from above average player to borderline all star in MDA’s system. So yeah product of the system.

      Caleb:
      I think some people say “product of the system” because they only look at per-game #s, and in that sense, the system helps – it puts the ball in the PGs hands full-time, and lets him make all the decisions, so you get a huge usage rate and good per-game #s.

      But of course Lin has been very efficient – not just logging big minutes and pumping up the #s.

    62. ruruland

      Caleb:
      I think some people say “product of the system” because they only look at per-game #s, and in that sense, the system helps – it puts the ball in the PGs hands full-time, and lets him make all the decisions, so you get a huge usage rate and good per-game #s.

      But of course Lin has been very efficient – not just logging big minutes and pumping up the #s.

      I think that’s fair. Though the system didn’t do much to inflate the numbers of the pre Lin PG this year.

      Not all good pgs will see “inflated” numbers in this system. See Chauncey Billups, which is why it’s such a variable limiting notion.

    63. bobneptune

      Frank:
      Couple thoughts-
      Re the bobneptune thing- it is just as difficult to find outstanding PG play as it is to find outstanding C play, but it is MUCH easier to find competent PG play than competent C play. This is a league in which Kwame Brown just got a 7M contract, in which disappointing players like Dalembert etc. get $10M contracts- these are guys that will never be available for the MLE and they SUCK. Meanwhile, Ramon Sessions is getting paid 4-5M. Steve Nash prob will get the MLE next year. Luke Ridnour is below average but is passable and will probably only get the MLE or less.

      so, you , as a knick fan were willing to write off this year with a black hole at point and wait on the hope of signing a very old nash to the mle? really?

      also, dalembert signed for TWO years for 13.7 million total (not 10M/yr as you stated above) with houston and he anchors the defense for a 18-14 team in the more difficult conference where the best player on the squad is exactly who?

      my point is had they signed a guy like dalembert who is certainly capable of anchoring a defense like chandler and isn’t much of an offensive player, they would have had a spare 7 million and change this year to address the point guard travesty.

      also… have you ever looked at the records of the teams sessions and ridnour played for? what makes you think they are capable starting nba pgs on a playoff team?

    64. Gideon Zaga

      Dude come on Chauncey never played the system, tell me how many times you saw pnr with amare and Chauncey last year. It was basically nonexistent, the only pnr I saw was between Chauncey and Melo. Lin is a product of the system. You guys act like he is the best thing that ever happened, there’s a reason multiple teams cut him. Dude can’t even shoot free throws and turns the ball over. Did u think he just started doing these things recently but all I hear is excuses because he is basically tebow and there’s no objectivity. Now people want to even trade Melo because of this guy. Look I like the guy but I just don’t think he’s good without the system. Without the system he is just an out of control pg, who turns the ball over and can’t shoot free throws. I’m sorry.

      ruruland: I think that’s fair. Though the system didn’t do much to inflate the numbers of the pre Lin PG this year.

      Not all good pgs will see “inflated” numbers in this system. See Chauncey Billups, which is why it’s such a variable limiting notion.

    65. nicos

      I’m not sure about Nash comparisons- I don’t think Lin has the court vision of Nash or Rubio. Nash’s assist rate (what % of his possessions end in assists rather than shots or turnovers) has been consistently in the 60′s, Paul’s in the 50s, Kidd’s in the 70s and 80s(!!!) with Dallas, Lin’s is 34- that’s a huge difference- the difference between a playmaking and scoring point guard. DWill is about the same as Lin this year but was in the 50s most years with Utah when he had a better supporting cast. I guess I’m with JK47

      JK47:
      Lin’s combination of high usage, high efficiency and high assist rate is pretty hard to find a comparison for.I mean, .581 TS% on 31.3 USG and a 50.0 AST are freakish numbers.

      I guess he’s sort of like Derrick Rose with twice the amount of turnovers.

      To be fair- he’s played most of his games without Melo and Stat so his assist rate should rise but I do get what Jason Terry is saying- if he had the ball in his hands 80% of the time doing nothing but running multiple pnrs on every possession he’d put up big numbers too. That said, Felton couldn’t do it last year (I’d say in Felton’s case the system turned a below average point guard into an above average one), and neither could Duhon. Lin has been great, really great, at getting to and finishing around the rim and his passing has been rock solid, if not spectacular. Like Rose, he’s been able to get into the paint a ton and take advantage by finishing himself or making the right pass.

    66. bobneptune

      jon abbey:
      because if they had kept Billups and hadn’t gotten Chandler they would have had a gaping hole at center, which is much harder to fill. there are maybe 10 solid centers in the league (that might be generous), and probably 50-60 guys who can do an adequate job at PG given a chance.

      do you think they would have been worse than 8-15 with billups at the point and the pharoh, jorts and jordan or whomever was available off the garbage pile? answer honestly now.

      i mean other than dwight howard… where are the big match-up problems they would have in the eastern conference?

    67. Unreason

      My impressions of Carmelo, JR, and BD are that they’re all habitually lazy on D but talented enough (superior BBall IQ, strength and quickness) to be above average Man- and Team-defenders when motivated. In BD’s case, Way above average. Stats that would assess that “potential” are measures of peak performance and variability rather than long-term averages or rates. Not sure if anyone tracks peak defensive rating and/or variability in defensive rating. If so, I’d be especially interested in how their peaks correlate with “big games” – nationally televised or high profile opponent or play-offs – and whether variability increases in contract years.

      I’m tempted to lump all 3 into an Overall-Freakishly-Talented-Underachiever category. But since they’ve all spent most of their careers on teams where D was more or less an afterthought, their habits were at least partly formed by the greater rewards they’ve recieved for their O rather than their D. So it’s hard to know, except for BD, how good their D really could be.

      Even if my impressions are correct, it seems very unlikely that all 3 will get and stay motivated for the rest of the season. So their long-term averages will probably be much better predictors of that than their “potential”.

      Even if it’s improbable, though, is it worth holding out hope that some combination of increased maturity, desire for a championship, a different coach, teammates, city, etc. could create and sustain consistent high effort on D from all 3? If so, D’A should install a system that encourages it: Maybe monitoring numbers that capture low effort on D (jogging back, not fighting over screens, not providing weakside help, not paying attention) and tie their mpg to a combined score based on those numbers.

    68. Gideon Zaga

      After a lot of thought, i retract my statement that Jeremy Lin is the MVP of the Knicks. I thinks its Tyson Chandler and tbe Defense. Looking at the turnovers and all the offensive rebounding. We probably dont win these games without the stops and the effort on the boards. Anyways Im out, time to go save lives. Go Knicks.

    69. Unreason

      jon abbey: in other news, the best recent nickname I’ve heard is “the Serge Protector” for Serge Ibaka.

      That’s clever, but is it sufficiently ass-kicking to do him justice? I’ve never ever seen anybody like that guy.

    70. d-mar

      jon abbey:
      meanwhile, the more time this team gets to gel, the better, which is why I think it’s crucial we get into the top six seeds and avoid Miami/Chicago in the first round. I think beating either of those teams is possible, but more likely in the second round with another few weeks to develop chemistry.

      I think we should definitely be able to climb above the 7th seed given who’s ahead of us (Atlanta is getting crushed by the Bulls right now BTW, so if that holds, we’d be only 3 games behind them) Indiana is coming back to earth, and I think Philly will follow (they have a ton of road games coming up) The key for us is winning the winnable games, no margin for error at this point.

    71. Unreason

      Gideon Zaga: i retract my statement that Jeremy Lin is the MVP of the Knicks. I thinks its Tyson Chandler

      I think they’re co-MVPs and should be co-captains.

    72. Z-man

      bobneptune: do you think they would have been worse than 8-15 with billups at the point and the pharoh, jorts and jordan or whomever was available off the garbage pile? answer honestly now.i mean other than dwight howard… where are the big match-up problems they would have in the eastern conference?

      Again, you are so caught up in the 8-15 thing. The answer is, maybe, maybe not. That is not the question, though. The question is: are the Knicks better off with a top-5 center manning the middle for the next few years, and take a chance on finding a PG with the MLE or Vets minimum, or stick with a flawed P&R PG in the twilight of his career so that you can wait for the right guys that fit your plan to come along? And concluding that your stratey was superior on the basis that we might have a better regular season record for the first 22 games?

    73. Frank

      bobneptune: so, you , as a knick fan were willing to write off this year with a black hole at point and wait on the hope of signing a very old Nash…

      My bad on the Dalembert part of the post. My recollection was wrong. Whatever- the point is the same. You talk about writing off this year because of the black hole at PG- did you really think this team was going anywhere in the postseason with the combination of Rony Turiaf and Jerome Jordan at center? And what did you think the chances were of Billups getting through a season without missing significant time with injury?

      As a diehard Knick fan, I am far more interested in the long term outlook of the team than in one season that was unlikely to go past the 2nd round of the playoffs even if everything broke perfectly for us. If we did not make the TC move, we would have had 11M in cap space after this year to fill, what, the hardest two positions to find- PG and C. We already know Kwame Brown got 7M and deandre Jordan got 11M this year- a year in which relatively few teams had cap room. And we have barely any draft picks to boot.

      So yes, getting Tyson Chandler at the expense of going forward with TD was absolutely a no-brainer. When you have a chance to sign the 2nd or 3rd best defensive center in the league, a guy who is a leader on the floor and in the locker room, and has a TS near 75- you do it. You do it without any hesitation, and then you move to hoping you get a break at the PG position- either TD can foot, or that you can find someone who can give you passable minutes until the cavalry arrives in 12-13 (ie. Nash, the 38 year old who is absolutely tearing up the league this year in between his AARP meetings). Turns out a huge gift from the sky fell down to us in Lin- doesn’t matter- I still think the FO did the obvious thing in signing Chandler.

    74. Owen

      Ibaka is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. That game last night, Nuggets-Thunder, was one of the best I have seen all year.

      I have to say, I am shocked by Chandler’s numbers over at basketball value, expected to see a much bigger impact.

    75. bobneptune

      Frank: My bad on the Dalembert part of the post. My recollection was wrong. Whatever- the point is the same. You talk about writing off this year because of the black hole at PG- did you really think this team was going anywhere in the postseason with the combination of Rony Turiaf and Jerome Jordan at center?And what did you think the chances were of Billups getting through a season without missing significant time with injury?

      As a diehard Knick fan, I am far more interested in the long term outlook of the team than in one season that was unlikely to go past the 2nd round of the playoffs even if everything broke perfectly for us.

      if you were truly interested in the long term you could have offered deandre jordan who is 7 years younger with 2 good legs, far more athletic and a way better help defender, shoots 65% from the floor with limited usage like chandler, is a 10 and 10 guy and a far superior shot blocker than chandler.

      maybe the clips wild have ponied up the extra 14 million, but maybe not. if not chandler would have been a fall back position.

      if not, dalembert and barea (covering both spots) for less money would have been better than 8 and 15 with chandler and douglas/ shumpert/ bibby.

      but it is all moot since the little baby jesus felt kindly to the old addict jimmy d.

    76. jon abbey

      DeAndre Jordan wasn’t going anywhere, Chris Paul told the Clippers he wanted him there, amusingly because he wanted a “Tyson Chandler type”.

      and stop talking about 8-15 like the first 23 games of a season is some kind of end point. I also was never the biggest Chauncey Billups (at this point in his career) fan, his injury to end last season was a non-contact injury, and the same this year, huge red flags.

    77. bobneptune

      Z-man: Again, you are so caught up in the 8-15 thing. The answer is, maybe, maybe not. That is not the question, though. The question is: are the Knicks better off with a top-5 center manning the middle for the next few years, and take a chance on finding a PG with the MLE or Vets minimum, or stick with a flawed P&R PG in the twilight of his career so that you can wait for the right guys that fit your plan to come along? And concluding that your stratey was superior on the basis that we might have a better regular season record for the first 22 games?

      the 8 and 15 thing through a soft segment of the schedule is reality. it actually happened. with chandler (for all his good qualities) in the middle with no pg, the knicks were 8 and 15 and sinking into the abyss. they would have been toast by tonight without lin. season over, no getting around it.

      that’s a fact. it wasn’t a fluke or bad luck. they sucked without a real pg and weren’t getting better by magic.

      then the unicorn crapping out rainbows came by and left lin on the porch.

      another question for those holding their breath for nash. how many people are going to buy season’s tickets next year to watch the nash-less suns? don’t you think ownership knows that and will offer him 20 million for 2 years to keep the building full?

      you anxious to pay ramon sessions 28 million for 4 years to run your team next year if lin didn’t fall in our laps? luke ridnour? they taking you to the promised land?

      oh… wait… baron davis is visiting lourdes at half time tonight and should be 100% healthy for the next 4 years.

    78. bobneptune

      jon abbey:
      DeAndre Jordan wasn’t going anywhere, Chris Paul told the Clippers he wanted him there, amusingly because he wanted a “Tyson Chandler type”.

      and stop talking about 8-15 like the first 23 games of a season is some kind of end point. I also was never the biggest Chauncey Billups (at this point in his career) fan, his injury to end last season was a non-contact injury, and the same this year, huge red flags.

      lo bleepin el…. it wasn’t jordans call. who cares what paul thought. to refresh your memory, after the clips offered jordan 40 for 4 as a rfa, golden state offered jordan 42.7 for 4 and he signed the bloody offer sheet which the clips matched.

      he was out the door for 42.7M no matter what paul wanted. the only question is , would the notoriously cheap clips have matched a larger offer by 12-14 million?

      8 and 15 really happened. honestly, it did and the next 9 games sans lin would have followed suit. end of season at that point. gg knicks.

      thank god for unicorns….

    79. jon abbey

      bobneptune: lo bleepin el…. it wasn’t jordans call. who cares what paul thought. to refresh your memory, after the clips offered jordan 40 for 4 as a rfa, golden state offered jordan 42.7 for 4 and he signed the bloody offer sheet which the clips matched.

      he was out the door for 42.7M no matter what paul wanted. the only question is , would the notoriously cheap clips have matched a larger offer by 12-14 million?

      8 and 15 really happened. honestly, it did and the next 9 games sans lin would have followed suit. end of season at that point. gg knicks.

      thank god for unicorns….

      this will likely get deleted later, but you’re seriously too stupid to talk to. you and a couple others who can’t seem to turn off their ignorance tonight…

    Comments are closed.