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Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Aug 26 2013)

  • [New York Times] Liberty Gain Ground in Playoff Race (Mon, 26 Aug 2013 02:27:20 GMT)
    Plenette Pierson scored 18 points, and the Liberty won, 74-66, at Connecticut to move a game behind Indiana for the final playoff spot in the W.N.B.A.’s Eastern Conference.    

  • 22 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Aug 26 2013)

    1. thenamestsam

      bockadoo:
      TMac = Hall of Famer?I say no.Didn’t do it long enough.

      The basketball HoF is so arbitrary with its selections that it’s hardly worth putting too much thought into, but for me, yeah he should be in. His peak was so high (I mean seriously 32 points, 6.5 boards and 5.5 assists in 02-03 with .545 TS% is insane) that I give him the benefit of the doubt. Great, great player at his best. It’s a shame that he was never in a good enough situation (in terms of health + teammates) to really have a chance to make a meaningful playoff run.

    2. KnickfaninNJ

      I am happy somebody remembers good things about McGrady. All I remember is the Knicks trading assets for him seemingly solely because he was a name who might sell tickets while they were destroying the team to create cap space. It didn’t make me want to watch the team more, it pissed me off.

    3. thenamestsam

      flossy:

      McGrady at his very peak was as good as LeBron and more fun to watch, IMO.

      As good offensively, maybe, but no comparison on defense.

    4. flossy

      thenamestsam: As good offensively, maybe, but no comparison on defense.

      It’s fair to say that even at his defensive best he wasn’t AS good as LeBron, but that’s not to say he was a bad defender. Far from it. His defense suffered when he became a mid-30s usage kind of offensive focal point, but his combination of length and quickness allowed him to be always at least a competent defender. In any case, he’s obviously no LeBron but I think he clearly has HOF credentials.

    5. flossy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Not as good as LeBron. A HOFer, but we’re talking 30% usage with .640TS%. McGrady never came close to that.

      McGrady’s best offensive seasons (with the apex being his 35% usg/.565 TS while playing 40 MPG) came when the other players to crack 1000 MP on his team were… wait for it… 34 y/o Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, the corpse of Sean Kemp, Jacque Vaugh, Mike Miller, Andrew DeClerq, and Jerryl Sasser.

      That squad makes the chumps LeBron played with in Cleveland look like the goddamn Dream Team. McGrady single-handedly dragged that sorry bunch of scrubs into the playoffs! I honestly think that’s at least as impressive as the gaudy numbers LeBron put up while playing with Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Battier, Birdman, etc.

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      flossy: That squad makes the chumps LeBron played with in Cleveland look like the goddamn Dream Team. McGrady single-handedly dragged that sorry bunch of scrubs into the playoffs! I honestly think that’s at least as impressive as the gaudy numbers LeBron put up while playing with Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Battier, Birdman, etc.

      Maybe, but I don’t think LeBron gets some kind of special cushion because of his teammates. He’s still the unanimous best player in the league, and he’s never facing anything less than the team’s best defender. He’s unstoppable in the post, and they have no “real” center aside from Birdman, who plays a strangely low number of minutes.

    7. flossy

      Uh yeah, LeBron absolutely gets a special cushion because of his teammates. You don’t think there is a massive difference between playing with 3 other hall of fame bound players and a collection of great role players (Battier, Birdman, Haslem etc.) vs. being on a team with barely any rotation players that even qualify as replacement level?? LeBron may face the other team’s best defender, but how can any team really double him with Wade, Bosh and shooters like Miller, Allen, Battier (or dive men like Anderson) on the floor? It’s not just about McGrady vs. LeBron, it’s about Pat Garrity vs. Bosh and Jaques Vaughn vs. Wade. Talk about no comparison.

      And if you don’t believe me, lets take a walk down memory lane to when LeBron was on the Cavs in his early 20s and posted the same kind of mid 30s usage and .560ish TS as McGrady did on those pathetic Orlando teams. You can’t possibly believe its a coincidence that LeBron’s TS% shot up into the .600s once he had HOF caliber teammates…?

    8. er

      flossy:
      Uh yeah, LeBron absolutely gets a special cushion because of his teammates.You don’t think there is a massive difference between playing with 3 other hall of fame bound players and a collection of great role players (Battier, Birdman, Haslem etc.) vs. being on a team with barely any rotation players that even qualify as replacement level??LeBron may face the other team’s best defender, but how can any team really double him with Wade, Bosh and shooters like Miller, Allen, Battier (or dive men like Anderson) on the floor?It’s not just about McGrady vs. LeBron, it’s about Pat Garrity vs. Bosh and Jaques Vaughn vs. Wade.Talk about no comparison.

      And if you don’t believe me, lets take a walk down memory lane to when LeBron was on the Cavs in his early 20s and posted the same kind of mid 30s usage and .560ish TS as McGrady did on those pathetic Orlando teams.You can’t possibly believe its a coincidence that LeBron’s TS% shot up into the .600s once he had HOF caliber teammates…?

      Dont forget about the immortals Andrew Declerq and Bo Outlaw

    9. er

      Minutes leaders in 02-03 Great googly moogly

      Tracy McGrady
      Pat Garrity
      Darrell Armstrong
      (Rookie) Mike Miller
      Jaqcue Vaughn
      Andrew Declercq
      Shawn Kemp (Fat as hell)

    10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      flossy: You can’t possibly believe its a coincidence that LeBron’s TS% shot up into the .600s once he had HOF caliber teammates…?

      Why is it unlikely that that difference is due to shot selection, playing in the post where there are high PPP outcomes?

    11. flossy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why is it unlikely that that difference is due to shot selection, playing in the post where there are high PPP outcomes?

      Of course it has to do with shot selection (for the sake of argument, ‘ll take it as a given that LeBron is taking more shots in the post). Why would you assume that shot selection is a variable that exists independent of the quality of one’s teammates? Don’t you think it might be easier to get a lot of high PPP FGAs in the post when you have Ray Allen on the wing and Battier or Miller in the corners, with Bosh pulling the opposing team’s center out to 18-20′ away from the basket? What about when you have Wade to bring the ball up court and enter it into the post rather than having to establish post position with the ball in your own hands from 23′ out? That’s just one small example of how great teammates make it easier to be hyper efficient. I’m sure 23 year old Tracy McGrady would have loved to have had the luxury of selecting the kind of shots that are routinely available to LeBron as a result of playing on the most stacked team in the league.

    12. nicos

      flossy:
      Uh yeah, LeBron absolutely gets a special cushion because of his teammates.You don’t think there is a massive difference between playing with 3 other hall of fame bound players and a collection of great role players (Battier, Birdman, Haslem etc.) vs. being on a team with barely any rotation players that even qualify as replacement level??LeBron may face the other team’s best defender, but how can any team really double him with Wade, Bosh and shooters like Miller, Allen, Battier (or dive men like Anderson) on the floor?It’s not just about McGrady vs. LeBron, it’s about Pat Garrity vs. Bosh and Jaques Vaughn vs. Wade.Talk about no comparison.

      And if you don’t believe me, lets take a walk down memory lane to when LeBron was on the Cavs in his early 20s and posted the same kind of mid 30s usage and .560ish TS as McGrady did on those pathetic Orlando teams.You can’t possibly believe its a coincidence that LeBron’s TS% shot up into the .600s once he had HOF caliber teammates…?

      While I agree with your overall point, LBJ’s TS%’s his last two years in Cleveland were almost identical to his first two years in Miami- .591 and .604 in Cleveland vs. .594 and .605 in Miami so his TS% didn’t really shoot up until this year. What he and Durant did this year in terms of usage/efficiency was pretty much unprecedented in the history of the NBA- Jordan’s peak TS% was .614- really not that close to .640. McGrady’s season was terrific but it’s in no way comparable even when you factor in teammates etc…

    13. flossy

      nicos: While I agree with your overall point, LBJ’s TS%’s his last two years in Cleveland were almost identical to his first two years in Miami- .591 and .604 in Cleveland vs. .594 and .605 in Miami so his TS% didn’t really shoot up until this year.What he and Durant did this year in terms of usage/efficiency was pretty much unprecedented in the history of the NBA- Jordan’s peak TS% was .614- really not that close to .640.McGrady’s season was terrific but it’s in no way comparable even when you factor in teammates etc…

      Point taken, although I think McGrady would have traded his Orlando teammates for the Mo Williams/Varejao/Shaq/JJ Hickson crew that played with LeBron at the end of his run with the Cavs in a heartbeat.

      In any case, McGrady was definitely not as good as LeBron for any sustained length of time, and peak LeBron > peak T-Mac. But McGrady is one of only a dozen players during the 3 point era to have at least one season better than LeBron’s career average WS/48 and PER, the others being Jordan, David Robinson, Durant, Shaq, Garnett, Chris Paul, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Bird and Amar’e (aww). That’s definitely HOF company right there.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/dKWbb

      I think it’s at least fair to say that McGrady at his very best was better than LeBron on an average day, for what it’s worth, which is ultimately not much since he played for crap teams in his short prime and then couldn’t stay healthy once he had decent teammates.

    14. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      flossy: In any case, McGrady was definitely not as good as LeBron for any sustained length of time, and peak LeBron > peak T-Mac. But McGrady is one of only a dozen players during the 3 point era to have at least one season better than LeBron’s career average WS/48 and PER, the others being Jordan, David Robinson, Durant, Shaq, Garnett, Chris Paul, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Bird and Amar’e (aww). That’s definitely HOF company right there.

      Does it really matter which NBA-level player is feeding the ball to the post? There are so few guards who will not require attention playing the high-man in the 2-man-game.

      And yes, as I said, that season is HOF-caliber and among the best seasons of all-time. Does that mean he deserves HOF for his career?

    15. Z-man

      My first inclination is to say that he isn’g a HOFer, but in looking at his career stats, he had 7 straight years averaging 25-6-5 and was a 2-time scoring champion and had one all-time great season. Also a low turnover guy, considering his off-the-charts usage. Yeah, he wasn’t the most efficient, but those are clearly HOF credentials.

    16. flossy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Does it really matter which NBA-level player is feeding the ball to the post? There are so few guards who will not require attention playing the high-man in the 2-man-game.

      Says who? That was just one part of one example of how having better teammates makes scoring efficiently more easy. And yes, it does make a difference if you’re a forward playing with below average guards vs. league-average players or preferably really good players.

      Getting the ball to your scoring forwards deep in the post is easy, right? Any NBA player can do it? Tell that to Toney Douglas/Mike Bibby/Baron Davis. Ask Amar’e and Carmelo whether there’s no difference between that crew and Lin/Felton in terms of who set them up better to score.

    17. Brian Cronin

      T-Mac’s case is weird. It is all based on what the Hall of Fame currently is, right? Players of his kind (six great years, one amazing year) are all in the Hall of Fame, so yeah, he’s a Hall of Famer. There is a good case to be made that players of his kind shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame, but when they all already are, you have to let him in, as well.

      But of course, the Basketball Hall of Fame is a joke, so that is a problem, as well. How in the fuck do we not have a Pro Basketball Hall of Fame?!?!

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