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Thursday, April 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Monday, Aug 13 2012)

  • [New York Times] Basketball | Men’s Final: James and U.S. Basketball Team Secure Another Gold (Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:07:05 GMT)
    The United States outlasted Spain, 107-100, for its second straight gold medal, with 30 points from Kevin Durant and late heroics from LeBron James in an unexpectedly close game.

  • [New York Times] Lakers Set to Obtain Dwight Howard in Four-Team Trade (Mon, 13 Aug 2012 06:40:04 GMT)
    The proposed deal would send Dwight Howard, the N.B.A.’s top center, to the Lakers from Orlando, and Los Angeles’s own All-Star center, Andrew Bynum, would head to Philadelphia.

  • 37 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Monday, Aug 13 2012)

    1. Frank O.

      I have to say, I had zero interest in watching the multi-millionaire USA basketball team play in the Olympics.

    2. ruruland

      I call bs on that:
      For those who don’t have Synergy:
      Clearly significantly slower than Novaks for example:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTkbn9Sprs&feature=related

      See 2:19, that is a slow release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqX2X0_W_5c&feature=related

      There does seem to be a difference between Lin’s spot-up release and his off-dribble pull-up release.

      Look at how much faster Novak’s catch and shoot release is than Lin’s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF9qMbr0-8c

    3. Frank O.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      A special thanks to ruruland for proving that his “expert” opinion is backed up by, first and foremost, pure, unadulterated conjecture:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inarvjDJuHo&feature=player_detailpage#t=82s

      You want to tell us more about Lin’s slow release? Or would you like to admit that your oh-so-informed opinions are largely horseshit?

      kind of early for this kind of vitriol. it actually pushes me away from the site. I realize folks aren’t exactly civil to you either THCJ. This was pretty jarring.

    4. ruruland

      Frank O.: kind of early for this kind of vitriol. it actually pushes me away from the site. I realize folks aren’t exactly civil to you either THCJ. This was pretty jarring.

      The more time TCHJ spends examining my and others specific claims, the more he is forced, intellectually (to be generous), to acknowledge that the game of basketball is filled with nuance. This is where his dogma breaks down rather quickly.

      Now, he may actually have a point on Lin’s off-dribble release. I’m not exactly sure how sports science defines release time, but a side by side comparison of Lin in catch-and-shoot with other quick release shooters shows a stark difference.

      Technically speaking, it doesn’t take Lin long to release the ball from a shooting position, it’s how long it takes him to get the ball to the shooting position and his legs and shoulders square with the target.

    5. thenamestsam

      Frank O.:
      I have to say, I had zero interest in watching the multi-millionaire USA basketball team play in the Olympics.

      Do you not enjoy the dream team concept or just not like it as an Olympic event? Personally I really enjoy watching the dream team play from a basketball standpoint but it often feels out of place at the Olympics. It’s a strange contrast between the 99% of the athletes enjoying their one minute in the spotlight and 12 actually famous people. I think it’s probably time to start a Basketball World Cup where the Dream Team concept can live on and move the Olympics back to amateurs.

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank O.: kind of early for this kind of vitriol. it actually pushes me away from the site. I realize folks aren’t exactly civil to you either THCJ. This was pretty jarring.

      I’m just tired of ruruland coming in and asserting that somehow the stats are worse than his subjective analysis. He was objectively wrong in this case.

    7. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m just tired of ruruland coming in and asserting that somehow the stats are worse than his subjective analysis. He was objectively wrong in this case.

      I was technically wrong given the way sports science defined release. But, going back and watching Lin’s off-dribble shot does change my mind some from what I remembered, and I appreciate evidence that allowed me to alter my opinion, something I’m always willing to do.

      But it is still quite clear that it takes Lin considerably longer to get the ball to the basket from the time he receives a pass than most of the current shooters on the Knicks. But he’s quick enough in those situations where he should have space. Teams rarely close out hard on Steve Nash because that’s an automatic layup.

      It’s the pull-up release that would be important for a player like Lin, so my overarching theory was wrong.

      THCJ will be roundly defeated this upcoming season, but he wins this round for sure.

    8. thenamestsam

      ruruland:

      THCJ will be roundly defeated this upcoming season, but he wins this round for sure.

      You’re two dudes talking about basketball on the internet. You can’t “defeat” someone at that.

    9. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      thenamestsam: You’re two dudes talking about basketball on the internet. You can’t “defeat” someone at that.

      When Carmelo shoots a .54 TS% instead of a .53, which is what I anticipate, I’ll be “defeated.” Then ruruland will write a 4,000 word post about why Carmelo wasn’t enabled by his teammates to be better, and we’ll be back to the same shit.

    10. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: When Carmelo shoots a .54 TS% instead of a .53, which is what I anticipate, I’ll be “defeated.” Then ruruland will write a 4,000 word post about why Carmelo wasn’t enabled by his teammates to be better, and we’ll be back to the same shit.

      I guess we’ll see, won’t we?

    11. mokers

      thenamestsam: Do you not enjoy the dream team concept or just not like it as an Olympic event? Personally I really enjoy watching the dream team play from a basketball standpoint but it often feels out of place at the Olympics. It’s a strange contrast between the 99% of the athletes enjoying their one minute in the spotlight and 12 actually famous people. I think it’s probably time to start a Basketball World Cup where the Dream Team concept can live on and move the Olympics back to amateurs.

      Stern is getting a lot of crap about wanting to move the Olympic basketball tournament to an Under 23 tournament like it is for soccer. I always thought that would actually be an ideal situation. The IOC/FIBA and the NBA are really arguing about who will reap the monetary benefits of having pros in the Olympics.

      I think a 15 man roster including 2 overage players would work well. The tournament would be much more fun and put a lot more teams into play. The US team would likely still dominate most of the games, but it would put a lot of other countries into play. Smaller countries like Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, Greece might not be able to make deep runs every olympics, but there would be a chance they could accumulate enough talent to get into the elimination round. There may be a chance that the US does not win a gold every time, but with the alternative format, I think it would be a lot more palatable.

    12. d-mar

      Frank O.:
      I have to say, I had zero interest in watching the multi-millionaire USA basketball team play in the Olympics.

      I had the opposite feeling, I really enjoyed watching them play.

      Hey, every great athlete is a multimillionaire these days, so I don’t see why that should be held against them. I thought there was a real team spirit with these guys. and very little (except Kobe on occasion) one on one play. Every player knew their role and contributed in some way.

      I also was super impressed with Kevin Love.

    13. johnno

      On a less vitriolic note — am I the only one who is puzzled by all of the “experts” who are talking about how great the 76ers are going to be because they picked up Bynum and a few role players? Why are they all ignoring the fact that they had to give up Iguodala, who is only one of the best defenders in the league and their most important player last year and who also just happened to be on the Olympic team, and they amnestied Elton Brand, who also played a major role for them last year?

    14. thenamestsam

      johnno:
      On a less vitriolic note — am I the only one who is puzzled by all of the “experts” who are talking about how great the 76ers are going to be because they picked up Bynum and a few role players?Why are they all ignoring the fact that they had to give up Iguodala, who is only one of the best defenders in the league and their most important player last year and who also just happened to be on the Olympic team, and they amnestied Elton Brand, who also played a major role for them last year?

      I’m curious which experts are saying that they’ll be great. My impression of the general tone is that people really like the trade for them, but that most are under the impression they won’t necessarily be great this year.

      That also happens to be basically how I feel. I love the trade for them because as much as I like Iggy (and I really do) he isn’t a centerpiece player. Even if it’s far from certain I still think there’s a chance that Bynum might be that guy. That’s a risk worth taking in my eyes. But even if Bynum can be that guy it’s not going to make them great this year. They don’t have the right supporting cast in place (specifically not enough shooting to open up the paint). Losing Brand hurts since he’s the best big they had to play alongside Bynum (except possibly Thad if they go small) and they leaned on Lou Williams a lot. I like their position for the future more than I did pre-trade but I think they’re in the same overall position they were before, scrapping for the 8th seed.

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The Sixers will probably be worse this year, but they got a top-3 center out of the trade. Much better than you can say for the Magic.

    16. showtime

      Frank O.:
      I have to say, I had zero interest in watching the multi-millionaire USA basketball team play in the Olympics.

      I am of a certain age (not to malign seniors), and therefore recall the “olden days” when the Olympics were intended to exclude professional athletes. I chafed when some countries were rumored to ignore the amateur-only rule. When for various reasons things changed (’90s), I initially missed the amateur competition, but with time I’ve come to embrace the games and simply enjoy witnessing excellence.

    17. Frank O.

      thenamestsam: Do you not enjoy the dream team concept or just not like it as an Olympic event? Personally I really enjoy watching the dream team play from a basketball standpoint but it often feels out of place at the Olympics. It’s a strange contrast between the 99% of the athletes enjoying their one minute in the spotlight and 12 actually famous people. I think it’s probably time to start a Basketball World Cup where the Dream Team concept can live on and move the Olympics back to amateurs.

      That’s it. these are already famous, professional, powerful and wealthy athletes. There is just something less exciting about that. The Olympics are exciting in part because of the youth, the struggle, often in the shadows, the emergent talent. I find discovering a talented fencer, or sprinter or swimmer or diver far more exciting than “discovering” that Melo can drain a straight on three in the face of a lesser foe, or that Chris Paul can shut down an opposing guard, who is more interested in getting his autograph than actually have to guard him. It just feels less.
      I too hate it that other countries, especially those old soviet bloc nations, ignored the amateur rule, which prompted us to finally start putting forth our pros. Its the escalation that cheapens the event.
      Professional athletes have their venue. they play for the NBA title. They are professional champs. That’s enough. Why do we keep rewarding the already mightily rewarded?

    18. Frank O.

      d-mar: I had the opposite feeling, I really enjoyed watching them play.

      Hey, every great athlete is a multimillionaire these days, so I don’t see why that should be held against them. I thought there was a real team spirit with these guys. and very little (except Kobe on occasion) one on one play. Every player knew their role and contributed in some way.

      I also was super impressed with Kevin Love.

      The only thing that could possibly be unexpected about the outcome would be if they lose. It’s like playing an electronic game you have mastered. It’s not longer fun. sports are amazing because of the unexpected. NBA players should never lose, ever to non-American teams that cannot field NBA stars at every position, and all NBA team 1 or two.

    19. Frank O.

      showtime: I am of a certain age (not to malign seniors), and therefore recall the “olden days” when the Olympics were intended to exclude professional athletes.I chafed when some countries were rumored toignore the amateur-only rule.When for various reasons things changed (’90s), I initially missed the amateur competition, but with time I’ve come to embrace the games and simply enjoy witnessing excellence.

      I hope no one thinks I’m judging their experience. Just for me, it feels less. I gravitate toward the excellence that comes from unexpected places.

    20. ruruland

      Frank O.: That’s it. these are already famous, professional, powerful and wealthy athletes. There is just something less exciting about that.
      I too hate it that other countries, especially those old soviet bloc nations, ignored the amateur rule, which prompted us to finally start putting forth our pros.

      Except that many of the FIBA countries field teams that have played together for quite some time and play a pretty high-caliber brand of basketball. USA’s talent gap with international teams closes every year and there is no reason to believe that trajectory will change. Moreover, FIBA rules do not maximize NBA player talents in the way they maximize international talent. Guard penetration is minimized and jump shooting is even more important. The value of athleticism is diminished by FIBA rules.

      Lest we all forget that the 2004 “Dream Team” lost three times and featured future HOFers Duncan, Wade, James, and a very strong supporting cast.

      What we saw from the last two Olympic teams, particularly this year’s team, was basketball excellence on a level that is very hard to duplicate.

      I happen to think that the James, Durant, Kobe, Love, Paul, Melo, Williams core is one of the best to have ever played a truly competitive basketball game in the history of the sport.

      It’s not quite Dream Team 1 level, but I’d submit that it’s some of the best basketball that’s ever been played.

      And despite that, most of the U.S.’s wins were competitive, and their were a number of times they could have conceivably lost.

    21. showtime

      I get Frank’s distinction.

      The Games for me were a sheer delight, mainly in observing the freshness and purity of the young athletes and the beauty of the technique, contained power, artistry and finesse of their sports. I came away with appreciation and interest in many sports that I don’t normally get to see.

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The 2004 Olympic team was not good. It had all-time greats, but then a handful of bad players like Iverson and Jefferson getting minutes.

    23. ruruland

      2003-2004 WS/48

      Duncan .249
      Jefferson .168
      Boozer .174
      Iverson .136
      Odom .134
      Marion .186

      Fuck you talking ’bout?

    24. Bison

      From a previous thread…

      ruruland: Nah, Lin’s release is not going to change unless he reforms his shot, which takes hundreds of hours.

      Have you seen Lin’s latest training videos? His shooting form is much improved. He clearly has ALREADY spent hundreds of hours working on his shot this year; you don’t consistently hit 76% of your 3s by slacking off.

      Kidd’s vision and anticipation are supernatural talents that can’t be taught. I think Lin can improve, but he’ll never have Kidd or Nash’s ability.

      “Supernatural” is too subjective for me. The objective data shows that Lin and Kidd were equally good at passing in their first years as starters: 8.2 assists per 36 minutes for Kidd; 8.3 for Lin (and both with high turnovers).

    25. exel

      Bison:
      From a previous thread…

      Have you seen Lin’s latest training videos?His shooting form is much improved.He clearly has ALREADY spent hundreds of hours working on his shot this year; you don’t consistently hit 76% of your 3s by slacking off.

      “Supernatural” is too subjective for me.The objective data shows that Lin and Kidd were equally good at passing in their first years as starters: 8.2 assists per 36 minutes for Kidd; 8.3 for Lin (and both with high turnovers).

      Funny thing is that I recall an article which mentioned Lin changed his jump shot form over the lock out off season. Guess he needs a few more tweaks and judging by that training video, he seems he’s committed to improving himself. I hope Felton is working this hard too, not only to get in shape, but to improve his quality of play.

    26. knicknyk

      Brian Cronin:
      Did you know that the United States voted against sending pros to the Olympics in 1992?

      I wrote about it awhile back at Basketball Legends Revealed. Check it out here.

      Interesting piece.

    27. Brian Cronin

      I get that they must have been partying all yesterday and that they were likely jetlagged like crazy, but wow, James Harden and Kevin Durant couldn’t have been any flatter than they were on Fallon tonight. Especially Harden. I mean, obviously, who cares what they sound like off the court so long as they’re awesome on the court, but it just struck me how quiet Harden was.

    28. knicknyk

      Yeah. I saw it as well. When KD was on with Jimmy Kimmel during the season he was a lot more funnier. Fallon wasn’t that good of a prompter to be honest.

    29. knicknyk

      Lmao. He is still shook from the finals performance, and that damn crossover. Kid’s probably having nightmares thinking he is in Nigeria or something.

    30. Jafa

      Why do I find myself agreeing with most of the things THCJ posts and disagreeing with most of the things ruruland posts?

    31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Jafa:
      Why do I find myself agreeing with most of the things THCJ posts and disagreeing with most of the things ruruland posts?

      Because most arguments against me aim at the failed-eyetest outliers of the WP formula (Fields, Evans, etc.) and most arguments against ruruland aim at his factual inaccuracies, like when he said that Lin had a slow release when it was about 20% faster than Ray Allen’s.

    32. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      sidestep:
      LOL.
      I also feel strangely warm and fuzzy when I read THCJ’s vitriolic posts.

      Someone’s gotta balance out this influx of extreme stats-doubters that came with Carmelo. Why not let it be me?

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