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Wednesday, April 16, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, May 24 2013)

  • [New York Post] Vogel rips Knicks (Fri, 24 May 2013 04:00:30 -0500)
    In the wake of Frank Vogel’s decision to bench center Roy Hibbert for the final two defensive possessions of the Heat’s 103-102 win over the Pacers on Wednesday in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals, the Pacers coach directed some criticism toward Knicks coach Mike Woodson following…

  • [New York Times] Andersen a Playoff Force for Heat (Fri, 24 May 2013 07:36:23 GMT)
    When Chris Andersen does something particularly impressive for the Miami Heat, a heavy metal guitar riff blares through their arena. Some children have shown up for games with replicas of his tattoos drawn upon their bodies. Others have gotten their hair gelled and shaped to match his Mohawk ‘do.    

  • [New York Times] NBA Quick Hits: 5 Questionable Coaching Decisions (Fri, 24 May 2013 07:33:06 GMT)
    Deciding who plays, and when they don’t, is one of the toughest parts of coaching.    

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Once Again, the Heat Are Not the Knicks (Fri, 24 May 2013 07:00:40 GMT)
    Frank Vogel, the Pacers’ coach, made it clear that coming up with defenses was more of a challenge against Miami than against the Knicks.    

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Partial Labrum Tear for Anthony (Fri, 24 May 2013 04:35:05 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony sustained a partial tear of his his labrum late in the regular season, and the Knicks’ medical staff has prescribed rest and rehabilitation for the injury.    

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Heat’s Chris Andersen Is Happy to Share the Spotlight (Fri, 24 May 2013 01:23:07 GMT)
    The Heat’s Chris Andersen is no attention seeker, but his shooting in Game 1 against the Pacers was impossible to miss.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro basketball: All-N.B.A. Teams Announced (Fri, 24 May 2013 00:11:49 GMT)
    A panel of sportswriters and broadcasters chose LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Tim Duncan and Chris Paul to the All-N.B.A. first team.    

  • 93 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, May 24 2013)

    1. SeeWhyDee77

      Been a looong time since I’ve logged in..pc died..2 broke to buy a new one/tablet/laptop, cell fone an wifi coverage has Stunk here lately. Anyways..mornin yal. I was thinkin with the draft comin up about who may be worth the pick. The most pressing need is a big who can score a lil an rebound and defend. There will be NO bigs at our spot that fits the criteria..an the 2 bigs I originally thought we should be lookin at given our draft position(Adams and Withey) will most likely be gone, what about Bullock or Hardaway Jr? Hardaway Jr is really good but I think I prefer Bullock becuz he’s a better shooter and has more potential defensively. What do u guys think?

    2. Frank O.

      Vogel is right. Every time we saw a drive, the penetrator just took it to the paint and as Hibbert rotated to defend Tyson or whoever Hibbert was guarding was alone.
      Melo, Felton, JR, any that drove. How many lay ups were blocked or missed?
      He’s a dick, but Vogel is dead on correct.

    3. Nick C.

      Without re-watching it, how much was that the ball handler having blinders on and how much was it the rest of the team not putting themselves in a position to receive a pass and convert.

    4. Hubert

      Frank O.:
      Vogel is right. Every time we saw a drive, the penetrator just took it to the paint and as Hibbert rotated to defend Tyson or whoever Hibbert was guarding was alone.
      Melo, Felton, JR, any that drove. How many lay ups were blocked or missed?
      He’s a dick, but Vogel is dead on correct.

      Vogel didn’t say this. He just said they have a more intelligent plan.

      And Hibbert never really left anyone alone in a dangerous position. Tyson and Martin were consistently in positions where Hibbert didn’t have to defend them.

    5. thenamestsam

      Nick C.:
      Without re-watching it, how much was that the ball handler having blinders on and how much was it the rest of the team not putting themselves in a position to receive a pass and convert.

      Definitely a bit of both. Chandler is generally pretty poor with his cuts around the basket to my eyes. He’s obviously devastating on the roll directly to the rim, but hes not that good at circling around to find those little pockets of space if he doesn’t get the ball on his immediate dive. Birdman in particular is excellent at it and he was able to get a bunch of easy looks by finding the little space. I think Karl is actually excellent at coaching that aspect of big man play, as the Nuggets centers are all still quite good at this.

      But we also don’t have great interior passers other than Felton, and I think especially when they got frustrated you could see that Melo and JR put on their blinders a little bit and were determined to go right at Hibbert in an effort to get some calls.

    6. er

      Hubert: Vogel didn’t say this. He just said they have a more intelligent plan. And Hibbert never really left anyone alone in a dangerous position. Tyson and Martin were consistently in positions where Hibbert didn’t have to defend them.

      Also tyson and kmart arent Bosh

    7. Frank O.

      Hubert: Vogel didn’t say this.He just said they have a more intelligent plan.

      And Hibbert never really left anyone alone in a dangerous position.Tyson and Martin were consistently in positions where Hibbert didn’t have to defend them.

      This is the quote I saw:

      “They had a more intelligent attack at the basket than New York did.”

    8. Zanzibar

      thenamestsam: Definitely a bit of both. Chandler is generally pretty poor with his cuts around the basket to my eyes. He’s obviously devastating on the roll directly to the rim, but hes not that good at circling around to find those little pockets of space if he doesn’t get the ball on his immediate dive. Birdman in particular is excellent at it and he was able to get a bunch of easy looks by finding the little space. I think Karl is actually excellent at coaching that aspect of big man play, as the Nuggets centers are all still quite good at this.

      But we also don’t have great interior passers other than Felton, and I think especially when they got frustrated you could see that Melo and JR put on their blinders a little bit and were determined to go right at Hibbert in an effort to get some calls.

      Agree with this, Tyson should have completed the rolls and put himself in position to either receive a pass or snag an offensive rebound. I believe Tyson would argue that the reason he didn’t do that is because he wanted to be in position to set another screen if the first one bore no fruit (ie., ball handler didn’t have open jumper). We need imo to start our offense early in the shot clock, have Tyson complete the dive and have others ready to set secondary screens. Next season Tyson taking a foul line jumper would also help. Remember the one he took and made at the start of game 3 and Hibbert nearly fainted – the following possession I noticed Hibbert stayed much closer to him.

    9. Hubert

      I don’t mean to nitpick, but he said:

      “They had a more intelligent plan against Roy Hibbert than New York did, and we’ve got to adjust,”

      Which could mean a few things.

      But it seems you feel that Hibbert was leaving someone open in a good position to score when someone penetrated. I don’t remember it that way. I remember their rotations being excellent, and I remember most of our penetration came off pick and rolls and Hibbert was effectively guarding the penetrator while being in good position to cut off a lob or any pass to the roll man. Assuming there was a roll man. The other problem was Tyson stopped rolling and spend most of his time in a midrange shooting zone where he didn’t need to be guarded. It could be faulty memory on my behalf, but I don’t recall Hibbert leaving people alone in dangerous positions much at all. And if he did their rotations were perfect. Our attack was very clustered and it always left one person (Tyson or Martin) in a position where he didn’t need to be guarded.

      In my opinion, the more intelligent plan Vogel was referring to is playing 5 players who can shoot, putting them in the positions where they can shoot most effectively, creating space, forcing a lot of switches, and forcing Hibbert to move out of the paint.

      Miami can pick and pop. New York just picked and sat.

    10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      How about Chris Andersen and his .397 WS/48 this playoffs?

      Anyone else think he should be playing more than 14 minutes a game?

    11. thenamestsam

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      How about Chris Andersen and his .397 WS/48 this playoffs?

      Anyone else think he should be playing more than 14 minutes a game?

      He has always been a short burst player, and given that he sat for part of the season I’m not sure his conditioning would really hold up over 25 minutes or so.

    12. thenamestsam

      But yes he’s playing pretty amazing. He has added a really different dimension to their offense. Bosh and Haslem are mostly midrange jump shooters and Joel was a total 0 when he played. Andersen dives hard and has surprisingly good hands and feel for finishing around the hoop. When his man gets sucked over to help with other actions he’s absolutely devastating. Also really enjoyed that bullet around the back pass he threw to Wade the other night. I’m pretty sure Wade would have been less surprised if Birdman had taken off all his clothes instead.

    13. Frank O.

      Hubert: “They had a more intelligent attack at the basket than New York did.”

      he said this also:
      “They had a more intelligent attack at the basket than New York did.”

    14. elikint

      When a team disappoints, the main response is that the players should be replaced with better ones. But some teams keep largely the same pieces but get better over time, like the Pacers. Usually the teams which make strides through improvement lack superstars — or have their superstars out, allowing other players to progress.

      The Knicks unique challenge is that they need their existing core, esp., Chandler, Amare and JR, to play better individually and as a team. This goal is best reached by a) a strong coach with a plan that includes clear assigned roles (see Spurs) that everyone understands and b) the team playing together a long time to hone the machine well, ie Miami (note how their season was more consistant than ours, which was streaky).

      Since Chandler and Amare get injured a lot, the roles on our team get scrambled a ton as people step up. We also need to limit the minutes our bigs play so next year they’re not hobbled in the playoffs. And Woodson is a decent motivator (well, we thought, till JR collapsed in the playoffs) and while he showed admirable flexibility in going small with Melo at the 4, I don’t think he sells people on a coherent system they can buy into. Letting the Boston series last 6 games was for me the first bit of evidence that this team’s identity and cohesion was poor.

      These guys are pros and very gifted athletes, physically. But balancing all these factors to get more out of the players we have is obviously…challenging.

      One thing to consider changing next year: not worrying about home court, or playoff position. Better to a have a rested group that won 44 games, given the obvious upside/talent, than to once again slog through the season, win 54 and limp into the playoffs.

      Oh yeah, and anyone who says we don’t need a healthy, productive, scoring Amare next year…

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      thenamestsam: He has always been a short burst player, and given that he sat for part of the season I’m not sure his conditioning would really hold up over 25 minutes or so.

      This is the playoffs, man. Ride him into the ground. I can’t imagine that an extra five or ten minutes would hurt, given how much time he could spend on the bench recovering. Play him for the 2nd and 4th quarters. Why not?

    16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I really can’t believe that people on this site want to ship Chandler out for a point guard. Even though Bledsoe has totally outperformed his draft projections, he’s not a franchise player the way Chandler is. Terrible playoffs aside, Chandler was again one of the best centers in the league. Bledsoe isn’t even close, and point guards are far less important than centers.

    17. max fisher-cohen

      elikint: When a team disappoints, the main response is that the players should be replaced with better ones. But some teams keep largely the same pieces but get better over time, like the Pacers. Usually the teams which make strides through improvement lack superstars — or have their superstars out, allowing other players to progress.

      The Pacers have 3 players left from their 09/10 roster: Granger, Hansbrough and Hibbert. When you build through the draft, you have the luxury of waiting around and seeing how your players develop, as the Pacers have done for the last 3 years or so with George, Stephenson and Hibbert.

      WHen you build like the Knicks — the yankee style of just getting the best players you can as soon as you can — you end up with older players and have to replenish your roster pretty regularly.

      The only successful team in the modern NBA to have been built largely through free agency and had more than 2 consecutive years of success is the Mavs, who refreshed their roster almost every year with sign and trades.

      Consider the list of players who have started or played 6th man for a season+ alongside Dirk since in the last decade: Finley, Nash, Van Exel, Shawn Bradley, Josh Howard, Raja Bell, Adrian Griffin, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Marquis Daniels, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Erick Dampier, Devin Harris, Brandon Bass, Antoine Wright, JJ Barea, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, DeShawn Stevenson, Caron Butler, Tyson Chandler, Brendan Haywood, Vince Carter, Delonte West, Rodrigue Beaubois, OJ Mayo, Darren Collison, Elton Brand, Chris Kaman.

      That’s 31 players in 10 seasons — over half of their top 6 turned over each year on average. And Dallas was fortunate enough to keep some draft picks around and luck out with guys like Howard and Harris, something NY doesn’t have the luxury of.

    18. AvonBarksdale

      Chandler had the flu two playoffs in a row in addition to his shit talking, i have watched him quit on almost as many plays during games this year as melo did under d’antoni..this combined with his inability to add anything new to his game at all and the fact he totally coasted on his DPOY title, was way less vocal with the bench and not really talking on defense this year….i liked him a lot but two whack playoffs in a row and to get the flu again wtf…i did see him call for passes around the rim a lot and was getting kinda dissed every now and then but i think that’s part of the team’s problem a lot of odd coaching decisions can mess up our whole dynamic.

    19. MeloDrama

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I really can’t believe that people on this site want to ship Chandler out for a point guard. Even though Bledsoe has totally outperformed his draft projections, he’s not a franchise player the way Chandler is. Terrible playoffs aside, Chandler was again one of the best centers in the league. Bledsoe isn’t even close, and point guards are far less important than centers.

      Yeah, I’m not sure why people have blinders on as to Chandler’s injury. I read one analyst saying the Knicks are “stuck with Chandler’s contract” over the next two years since nobody else will take it. He was (deservingly) DPOY last season. He was down from that level but still playing damn well before he hurt his neck this season.

      I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Not many value defense, especially the kind Chandler plays (strong pick and roll defense, contesting without fouling/swiping for blocks). I certainly hope the Knicks don’t fall prey to the “dump Chandler” nonsense.

    20. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I really can’t believe that people on this site want to ship Chandler out for a point guard. Even though Bledsoe has totally outperformed his draft projections, he’s not a franchise player the way Chandler is. Terrible playoffs aside, Chandler was again one of the best centers in the league. Bledsoe isn’t even close, and point guards are far less important than centers.

      Chandler is like one of the 5 best offensive players in NBA history.

    21. Z

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I really can’t believe that people on this site want to ship Chandler out…

      It’s not that I want to ship Chandler out. I don’t think he’s the problem at all. But there are very few moveable parts on the roster, and if the $77,000,000 core remains intact, the team is going to get worse over the next two years while the rest of the conference gets better. I’d rather keep Chandler and see a half-dozen other Knicks get shipped out instead.

      But thinking within the parameters of the possible, it seems to be trade him for some new bodies, or continue on with the status quo.

    22. johnno

      max fisher-cohen: The only successful team in the modern NBA to have been built largely through free agency and had more than 2 consecutive years of success is the Mavs,

      Heat?

    23. mokers

      It wouldn’t surprise me to heat that Chandler needed surgery on his neck. I think most people love Chandler, but has been said before, the difference between 2012 Chandler and 2013 Chandler is immense, especially when you are looking at defensive effort. Elite at finishing the pick and roll and great with setting screens, but the rest on offense is maddening. I think the most frustrating thing about him calling out people for ball movement is the only time we really see him pass is when he sticks his butt out and passes to a wing player while not facing the basket. I don’t know why that play infuriates me so much.

      In the end I think Tyson with a full offseason can play more like he did in 2012, but I don’t think he is untouchable if the right pieces are coming back. I do believe that Amar’e would be the better person to try and trade, but Tyson and his contract are going to get much better value in return.

    24. ruruland

      Tom Haberstroh ?@tomhaberstroh

      Vogel on MIA’s small-ball: “When you have five 3-point shooters, it doesn’t make sense to have Roy Hibbert out there.”

    25. Unreason

      5 fabulous reasons to maybe stop grinding your teeth so much: Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Prigs/JR
      + 1 more to help U Cope

      1. The 5-man unit with the best NetRtg per 100 possessions in the league this reg season (among all units with at least 200 min): Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Kidd/JR

      If JR stays, they’ll all be back. Kidd’ll probably be a bit of an apparition, but I doubt Prigs will hurt that unit since his DefRtg and NetRtg were better than Kidd’s and his play was getting stronger as the season went on. Lets hope he stays too.

      2. The unit with the best OffRtg in the league: Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Kidd/JR
      Prig’s OffRtg was pretty identical to Kidd’s so with that sub they should stay elite.

      3. The unit with the 2nd best Ast/TO in the league: Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Kidd/Brewer

      Substituting Prigs and JR might hurt that a bit. Prigs’ Ast/TO was lower than Kidd’s (2.7 vs. 3.3), Brewer’s was a little better than JR’s (2.8 vs. 1.6) but the amended unit should still be very good on that score. Plus, it’s possible that these overall numbers don’t reflect their performance when Felton is the primary ball handler and might be better when he is.

      4. The unit with the 3rd best OReb%: Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Kidd/JR

      Prig’s OReb% was actually higher than Kidd’s so with that substitution that unit should still be very good to elite.

      5. The unit with the 7th best DefRtg in the league: Anthony/Tyson/Felton/Kidd/Brewer

      Again Prig’s DefRtg was better than Kidd’s and JR’s was better than Brewer’s so with those substitutions this unit should still be very good.

      +1. With a TS% of 58.3% and USG of 25.6% for the season, Cope is emerging as a real scoring option even in big games against tough Ds. Despite the garbage min inflation esp early in the season, I think these numbers should him a spot in the regular rotation. So when Anthony and JR are cold and Amare is injured or cold he’ll be there to help Felton jumpstart a stagnant O. I hope he stays also.

    26. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Chandler is like one of the 5 best offensive players in NBA history.

      I want you to explain to me, Captain Expert, why so few players have even come close to his level of efficiency at any usage. I want you to explain to me how he has posted his points per shot numbers without this “offensive skill” your purport.

      I want you to give credit to a guy for knowing his limited role on offense and doing it better — literally better — than just about every center who has ever player — literally ever played — in the NBA.

      How the fuck can you say that a guy who averaged 1.97 points per shot last season — how can you say that guy is not an offensive juggernaut? It seems to me that it doesn’t matter who plays point guard for him — Paul, Kidd, Felton, Lin, Prigioni, Shumpert — he’s putting up insane offensive efficiency numbers.

      At what point do you stop trying to explain nebulous (and largely anecdotal) interaction effects and start trying to explain how Chandler is maybe, just maybe responsible for him doing what literally no player in NBA history has done before?

    27. ruruland

      Re: Chandler

      It’s interesting to note that the Knicks had a better net rating with Kenyon Martin on the floor than they did with Chandler, and that the Knicks were 8-0 with Martin starting at center and 12-4 without Chandler in the lineup all together.

      It’s also interesting to note that at age 35, Kenyon Martin set career highs in shooting efficiency (.583) and offensive reb %.

      Kenyon Martin is certainly not as good at basketball as Tyson is, but he did somewhat approximate Chandler’s overall impact in the time he played last year.

      Could it be that the Knicks 4-out system is statistically advantageous to mobile dive man who can finish relatively well?

      Chandler’s career statistics are completely different as a primary dive man (New Orleans w/ Paul, Bobcats with Felton) than they were when he was a more conventional center who attempted his own shots on occasion.

      Is it also possible that as a one-dimensional offensive player, he’s regular season strengths are much easier to slow down or stop in the playoffs. Given that he impacts the game really effectively but in only a couple of ways on offense, can we therefore conclude that his value in the playoffs GREATLY diminishes?

      From his first playoff year, Chandler’s usage drops an amazing three points in the playoffs from the regular season.

      He has not eclipsed .580 TS in the playoffs since his Chris Paul/Hornets days.

      It’s simply very difficult to impact the game on offense in a positive way with a 10-13 usage.

      This is not a situation where there is extra burden on Chandler to create in the playoffs because of the limitations of others. This is also not a situation where teams are committing extra help to Chandler.

      To me it seems that defenses are generally more aware of him. KG and Bosh should have been two excellent matchups.

    28. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I want you to explain to me, Captain Expert, why so few players have even come close to his level of efficiency at any usage. I want you to explain to me how he has posted his points per shot numbers without this “offensive skill” your purport.

      How the fuck can you say that a guy who averaged 1.97 points per shot last season — how can you say that guy is not an offensive juggernaut? It seems to me that it doesn’t matter who plays point guard for him — Paul, Kidd, Felton, Lin, Prigioni, Shumpert — he’s putting up insane offensive efficiency numbers.

      At what point do you stop trying to explain nebulous (and largely anecdotal) interaction effects and start trying to explain how Chandler is maybe, just maybe responsible for him doing what literally no player in NBA history has done before?

      We’ve gone over this.

      I’ll do it again later tonight. Chandler games advanced metrics by simply picking the lowest hanging fruit and discarding everything else.

      His at the rim % is very good, but it’s not all that much different than 5-10 other bigs in the NBA.

      The far greater difference is that those other players take a few shots every game outside of the restricted area, which greatly lowers their efficiency.

      I’ll post for you again when I have chance.

      Listen, I think Chandler is very good. He’s an excellent offensive rebounder, screen-setter and finisher. He defends like an active pf.

      However, I don’ think advanced statistics really lineup with his overall impact.

      He’s a poor rim protector and an incredibly limited offensive player. Was it not clear that the far statistically inferior Roy Hibbert provides much more value to a team than Chandler?

      Garnett, even.

    29. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Is it also possible that as a one-dimensional offensive player, he’s regular season strengths are much easier to slow down or stop in the playoffs. Given that he impacts the game really effectively but in only a couple of ways on offense, can we therefore conclude that his value in the playoffs GREATLY diminishes?

      If Chandler can be contained, why isn’t he? Why would a coach go into a game saying, “Nah, only the regular season. Let’s not use that strategy to stop the guy with the best TS% in the league?”

    30. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: If Chandler can be contained, why isn’t he? Why would a coach go into a game saying, “Nah, only the regular season. Let’s not use that strategy to stop the guy with the best TS% in the league?”

      As Dean Oliver noted, the playoff format makes it much easier to scout and gives players far more time to pour over and digest information. There’s also much more practice time.

      I know you don’t think any of that matters and that players are just bits of data on legs, but hey, what does Dean Oliver know that you don’t?

    31. ruruland

      Conversely, what is your reasoning for Chandler being contained in the playoffs?

      Let me guess, anomaly?

    32. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: As Dean Oliver noted, the playoff format makes it much easier to scout and gives players far more time to pour over and digest information. There’s also much more practice time.

      I know you don’t think any of that matters and that players are just bits of data on legs, but hey, what does Dean Oliver know that you don’t?

      But Chandler’s so one-dimensional, there’s no reason that the scouting report should change much.

      “Runs pick and roll. Dives to basket. Never takes jumpers.”

      You want to appeal to authority, but just answer the simple questions. Here’s your proposition. I don’t understand it.

      Chandler has a limited offensive game. He takes all his shots within 5 feet.

      Opposing players may be able to shut him down in the playoffs because they have the time to scout his 5-foot game.

      Huh?

    33. jon abbey

      Chris Wilcox “shot” 72 percent this year, why doesn’t Boston try to get him the ball more?

    34. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      in passing in this piece on Hibbert today, they mention that Chandler allowed 44 percent opposition shooting at the rim, league average is 48 percent. Hibbert was at 38 percent, Larry Sanders at 32 percent:

      http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/63158/courtvision-roy-hibbert-the-protector

      yeah, I posted the paper yesterday brother and went into the numbers.

      I’ll post it again: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/The%20Dwight%20Effect%20A%20New%20Ensemble%20of%20Interior%20Defense%20Analytics%20for%20the%20NBA.pdf

      Chandler allowed 45.7 % when defending players within 5 feet, which is worse than league average.

      He also did not force as many shots outside of the restricted area as you’d expect.

    35. jon abbey

      and the answer to THCJ’s question is that many teams don’t really have an interior defender these days. guys like Asik and Noah abused Chandler in the regular season too.

    36. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: But Chandler’s so one-dimensional, there’s no reason that the scouting report should change much.

      “Runs pick and roll. Dives to basket. Never takes jumpers.”

      You want to appeal to authority, but just answer the simple questions. Here’s your proposition. I don’t understand it.

      Chandler has a limited offensive game. He takes all his shots within 5 feet.

      Opposing players may be able to shut him down in the playoffs because they have the time to scout his 5-foot game.

      Huh?

      Right, while you were watching the game via gamecast play-by-play, you missed (note that you’d recognize it) that defenses were hugging Chandler and shooters on the pick and roll and allowing guys like Raymond Felton to shoot mid-range jumpers.

      Chandler offered no trump card to the whole deal of being guarded by a defender.

      Let’s remember, Chandler does most of his work when the help defense attacks the ballhandler — that’s what creates the lobs and putbacks (not the tap-outs though).

      Literally, Chandler scores the vast majority of his points when he is unguarded.

    37. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      and the answer to THCJ’s question is that many teams don’t really have an interior defender these days. guys like Asik and Noah abused Chandler in the regular season too.

      It’s largely teams making a minor adjustment in how they defend pick and roll that they don;’t make in the regular season.

      In the regular season, most defenses are built on rules like, “help out on the ballhandler who is dribbling towards the basket.”

      In the playoffs, you adapt your rules to personnel. Raymond Felton is not a very good off-dribble shooter, even open, ergo, give him that shut and take away everything else.

    38. ruruland

      In a vacuum, I’d take Chandler 9 out of 10 times. I think he is somewhere in the top 10-15 big man, somewhere in the top 40 players when healthy.

      But Jordan+Bledsoe has a chance to be considerably better, even next year.

    39. yellowboy90

      well I hope teams think Chandler is a franchise player and will give up the pieces to get this game changer. A S&T of Millsap, Favors, and picks would be fine with me.

    40. ruruland

      yellowboy90:
      well I hope teams think Chandler is a franchise player and will give up the pieces to get this game changer. A S&T of Millsap, Favors, and picks would be fine with me.

      That would be a ridiculous return. There’s no way. You get one of those with a pick and it’s a coup.

    41. yellowboy90

      hey Chandler is a franchise player and if two or more agree… I know. Its a dream based on if teams thought like THCJ.

    42. ruruland

      yellowboy90:
      hey Chandler is a franchise player and if two or more agree…I know. Its a dream based on if teams thought like THCJ.

      haha. I hear you

    43. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: If Chandler can be contained, why isn’t he? Why would a coach go into a game saying, “Nah, only the regular season. Let’s not use that strategy to stop the guy with the best TS% in the league?”

      But he IS contained- his usage hasn’t cracked 15 since his days with the Bulls and that’s in spite of the Knicks (and NO) putting him in high screen and rolls constantly. Factor in that his TO% is actually higher than his usage% (and that doesn’t count the turnovers by guards trying to get him the ball) and he doesn’t look particularly dominant on offense. His still has real value- he’s a terrific screen-setter and offensive rebounder as Ruru mentioned plus the Knicks do get other good shots out of Chandler’s rolls, both from the ball-handler and perimeter guys off of the kick so that counts in his favor as well but I can’t call him a dominant offensive player. That said, I’m kind of with THCJ on this one- I think I’d take my chances that Chandler will have a bounce back year rather than hope that Bledsoe (if he’s even available) will become something other than the 3 parts Avery Bradley to one part Ty Lawson guy he is now. He’s a terrific defender who hasn’t shown he can play the point much at all. His three point shooting % gives you some hope that his TS% should rise but will it be enough to offset the fact he’s not a pass first point guard? Also, his greatest asset offensively is his ability to push the ball- not something that’s going to pay huge dividends on a team that doesn’t like to run. I’d say keep Chandler, hope you something out of the draft, and hope you’re healthy come playoff time- Miami’s not invincible. The team going to have to be rebuilt in two years anyway and I think any move you make with Chandler is going to be at least as big a gamble as Chandler’s health.

    44. ruruland

      nicos:not something that’s going to pay huge dividends on a team that doesn’t like to run.I’d say keep Chandler, hope you something out of the draft, and hope you’re healthy come playoff time- Miami’s not invincible.The team going to have to be rebuilt in two years anyway and I think any move you make with Chandler is going to be at least as big a gamble as Chandler’s health.

      Perhaps, perhaps.

      There are certainly a lot of very solid two-way wings that will be available in the late first round if you really want to go back to 4-out with Chandler at center and Amar’e off the bench.

      And yeah, Copeland and Shump can both turn out to be really good players in bigger roles next year.

    45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: In the playoffs, you adapt your rules to personnel. Raymond Felton is not a very good off-dribble shooter, even open, ergo, give him that shut and take away everything else.

      This sounds like a great strategy. Remind me again why you can’t do it in the regular season, please.

    46. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This sounds like a great strategy. Remind me again why you can’t do it in the regular season, please.

      I resist the temptation to call you an idiot. Not sure why you don’t understand things for the first two times. I’ll try again.

      “Nick: How did the Nuggets and/or you view isolation plays during your time in Denver?

      Dean: Isolations force the player to make the right decision. There are guys who can make the decision with the right amount of time. Some of it is individual ability, but a lot of it is playing with a guy who understands where teammates are supposed to be and how the defense is supposed to react, like if the double team comes from the baseline or the wing. But defenses will mix those things up, especially in the playoffs, because you are playing the same guys seven times. In the regular season it’s harder to make adaptations. Teams tend to do things they are pretty good at. But in the playoffs, things change a lot, and players understand a lot better the other teams plays because they are not coming off back to back where you have to do ‘this or that’ against another team. They had to respond to Dewayne Wade last night and tonight it’s Melo. And they have to deal with the differences between those guys. The time to make adjustments and the ability to make adjustments is better in the playoffs, for both offense and defense. Then it becomes how well can you make adjustments. A defense will really force a player to potentially get out of his comfort zone.”

    47. BigBlueAL

      If Stephenson had played like this in Game 6 Knicks would be playing the Heat right now.

    48. Nick C.

      funny stuff by Reggie “does anyone want to shoot the ball for the Pacers?” followed by an overpassing TO. I still want them to beat Miami. Knicks, Mets, Jets, Syracuse no overdogs there.

    49. ruruland

      BigBlueAL: Yeah, no.

      Better passer, more efficient scorer, better defender,better rebounder (can guard every player on court and is better on weakside)

      MJ was better competitor, imposed his will on games perhaps more consistently, and was more relentless as scorer. But he’s not quite as good as Lebron is now.

      It’ll always be subjective between he and Jordan but that is my opinion.

      Talk about handcheck, but defenders longer, more athletic,and there are zones and it’s much easier to overload against scorers than it used to be.

    50. BigBlueAL

      For you guys too young to remember Jordan early in his career, go look at his numbers before he even started winning championships.

      Let me know when LeBron averages 8 asts and 8 rebs per game in the same season. Ditto 3.2 stls and 1.6 blks per game in the same season. MJ in back-to-back seasons averaged 2.9 and 3.2 stls per game while blocking 1.5 and 1.6 shots per game.

      Most young people just think of MJ as a great scorer and winner. He was alot more than that.

    51. ruruland

      BigBlueAL:
      For you guys too young to remember Jordan early in his career, go look at his numbers before he even started winning championships.

      Let me know when LeBron averages 8 asts and 8 rebs per game in the same season.Ditto 3.2 stls and 1.6 blks per game in the same season.MJ in back-to-back seasons averaged 2.9 and 3.2 stls per game while blocking 1.5 and 1.6 shots per game.

      Most young people just think of MJ as a great scorer and winner.He was alot more than that.

      Ture, those numbers don’t look as good pace adjusted, but he was definitely better at stealing the ball than Lebron.

      I’ve watched a ton of hoopsencylopedia’s early MJ videos.

    52. bidiong

      It’s always going to be an opinion call between the 2 of them. Jordan made me cry as a child so he must be better.

    53. yellowboy90

      BigBlueAL:
      For you guys too young to remember Jordan early in his career, go look at his numbers before he even started winning championships.

      Let me know when LeBron averages 8 asts and 8 rebs per game in the same season.Ditto 3.2 stls and 1.6 blks per game in the same season.MJ in back-to-back seasons averaged 2.9 and 3.2 stls per game while blocking 1.5 and 1.6 shots per game.

      Most young people just think of MJ as a great scorer and winner.He was alot more than that.

      Exactly, The dude could do it all. ALso, I know I am in the minority but Lebron defense on ball is overrated to me. Jordan could legitimately lock you down. LBJ is great at denial and is a good on ball defender but I see him get burnt easily at times.

    54. bidiong

      Also, just want to say I love to follow your guy’s comments you’ve given me a different perspective on statistics I never had and I’m still largely a dumbass but I like to follow the banter between all of you.

    55. BigBlueAL

      BTW MJ had 4 seasons in a row with TS% at 60% or better. His lowest usage in any of those seasons was 32.1%.

      This was all before he retired the 1st time. He was still pretty damn good when he returned from his 1st retirement too but he was obviously alot less active on D and not as efficient even though he became a decent 3pt shooter when he returned.

      Look man I aint hating on LeBron, the guy is amazing. But these comparisons to MJ right now are so premature its not even funny. Let LeBron play a few more years before we can truly start a debate. I will say this, LeBron is a helluva better comparison to MJ than Kobe.

      Also yeah the pace in the late 80′s/early 90′s was higher than now but the Bulls were always one of the slower paced teams in the NBA believe it or not. In the 3 seasons playing for Doug Collins they were the slowest paced team in the NBA twice!! Even under Phil they were still a slow paced team, were last in pace in one of the title years and were always in the lower half in pace.

      I found that pretty interesting to be honest, I remember the first 3 title teams pressing alot and running similar to the current Heat team especially off turnovers.

    56. jon abbey

      LeBron has a chance to get past Jordan for his career, but Jordan was much better at controlling a game for the full 48 minutes than LeBron has ever shown. when the Pacers were going on those 10-0 runs in the first half tonight, Jordan would never let the opposition do that while being as passive as LeBron was.

    57. bidiong

      jon abbey:
      LeBron has a chance to get past Jordan for his career, but Jordan was much better at controlling a game for the full 48 minutes than LeBron has ever shown. when the Pacers were going on those 10-0 runs in the first half tonight, Jordan would never let the opposition do that while being as passive as LeBron was.

      That’s because Jordan had a killer instinct that LeBron doesn’t have. I don’t think LeBron hates losing like Jordan did.

    58. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      If Stephenson had played like this in Game 6 Knicks would be playing the Heat right now.

      That’s what killed me about that game, that we let a scrub like Lance Stephenson beat us.

      But I really should not have called him a scrub, he’s obviously a budding NBA superstar.

    59. BigBlueAL

      What makes LeBron so amazing to watch are the plays he makes that dont involve scoring necessarily. His blocks on D, his great passes and amazing athleticism on fast breaks. But like I mentioned earlier those were things MJ did all the time too when he was younger.

      MJ when he returned from baseball was all about posting up and killing you with his mid-range game. It will be interesting to see when LeBron reaches his early 30′s if he can evolve his offensive game enough and still be great like MJ was. He cant possibly be this athletically amazing for his entire career.

    60. nicos

      Watching George go off against Miami makes you appreciate the job the Knicks (esp. Shump) did on him- .492 TS% with a TO% over 18%.

    61. ruruland

      bidiong:
      Also, just want to say I love to follow your guy’s comments you’ve given me a different perspective on statistics I never had and I’m still largely a dumbass but I like to follow the banter between all of you.

      Stick around!

    62. ruruland

      nicos:
      Watching George go off against Miami makes you appreciate the job the Knicks (esp. Shump) did on him- .492 TS% with a TO% over 18%.

      Against Lebron and Wade no less.

    63. BigBlueAL

      nicos:
      Watching George go off against Miami makes you appreciate the job the Knicks (esp. Shump) did on him- .492 TS% with a TO% over 18%.

      For me at least it is truly remarkable how much more I love Shump now compared to just a couple of months ago. Loved watching him last season as a rookie but he was so bad on offense it kept me from truly being on his bandwagon.

      He obviously struggled early this year returning from his injury (at times looked truly awful offensively) but his improved shooting toward the end of the regular season, getting back to the great D we saw last season and most importantly for me his competitiveness during the playoffs really impressed the hell out of me. Kid aint afraid thats for sure.

      I really cant wait to watch his game improve and evolve over the next few seasons.

    64. yellowboy90

      nicos:
      Watching George go off against Miami makes you appreciate the job the Knicks (esp. Shump) did on him- .492 TS% with a TO% over 18%.

      What was his numbers against ATL. I thought they were bad too. The thing about George to me is he will have great games then shoot in the 20% range in back to back games.

      Good player not the great player he is getting hyped into.

      So, Next year do they play Granger off the bench or move Paul back to sg? I guess they can trade him too but…

    65. jon abbey

      bidiong: That’s because Jordan had a killer instinct that LeBron doesn’t have. I don’t think LeBron hates losing like Jordan did.

      right, he doesn’t really verge into sociopathy about it the way Jordan did and I think Kobe generally has (with a lower talent level). the question remains open whether it is necessary to go that far to top Jordan, I think it’s incredible that anyone has even made it a potential discussion.

      also Jordan couldn’t guard big men like LeBron usually can, although Hibbert seems a little too much one on one maybe. that weak side swat was incredible, though.

    66. ruruland

      How Tyson Chandler games advanced metrics while hurting his team (relative to other bigs)

      Chandler: 5 fga at rim, 69.3 % fg, 72.8 % assisted.
      Shots outside the rim area per game: .8
      efg%: .638

      Blake Griffin: 5.5 fga at rim, 76.7 % fg, 69.3 % assisted.
      Shots outside of the rim area per game: 7.5
      efg%: 542

      Serge Ibaka: 3.4 fga at rim, 77.8 % fg, 65.7 % assisted.
      Shots outside the rim area per game: 6
      efg%: 586

      DeAndre Jordan: 4.3 fga at rim, 73.2 % fg, 68 % assisted.
      Shots outside the rim area per game: 1.5
      efg%: 606

      Kevin Garnett: 2.4 fga at rim, 77 % fg, 75.6 % assisted.
      Shots outside rim area per game: 9.1
      efg%: 498

      Amar’e Stoudemire (averaging 9 fewer mpg): 4.4 fga at rim, 68.4 % fg, 61 % assisted.
      Shots outside rim area per game: 3.4
      efg %: 577

      Tim Duncan: 4.7 fga at rim, 71.8% fg, 64.6 % assisted.
      Shots outside rim area per game: 8.6
      efg%: 503

      Brook Lopez: 6.3 fga at rim, 69.4 % fg, 62.2 % assisted.
      Shots outside rim area per game: 7.6
      efg%: 521

      DeMarcus Cousins: 6 fga at rim, 64.3 % fg, 46 % assisted.
      Shots outside rim area per game: 7.5
      efg%: 467

      Nikola Pekovic: 7.4 fga at rim, 62.8% fg, 65 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 3.9
      efg %: 520

      LeMarcus Aldridge: 4.1 fga at rim, 71.2 % fg, 49.8 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 12.5
      efg%: 485

      Greg Monroe: 7.5 fga at rim, 62 % fg, 51 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 5
      efg% 486

      Dwight Howard: 6.8 fga at rim, 70.4 % fg, 70.3 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 3.5
      efg% 579

      JaVale McGee: 4 fga at rim, 71.8 fg %, 66.8 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 1.9
      efg % 576

      Kenneth Faried: 5.6 fga at rim, 66.3 % fg, 66.4 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 2.5
      efg % 552

      Kosta Koufos (8 fewer minutes): 4.2 fga at rim, 66.7 % fg, 70.1 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 1.8
      efg % 581

      cont……

    67. jon abbey

      and it’d even be different if he had a three foot jump hook like Hibbert has been showing lately, OR ANY OTHER POST MOVE EVER. guys like Asik and Noah or Hibbert or Garnett can shut him down for an entire game by just keeping their body between him and the basket the whole time, then he is helpless.

    68. ruruland

      Anderson Verajeo: 5.8 fga at rim, 62.5 % fg, 51.8 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 5.4
      efg% 478

      Al Jefferson: 4.1 fga at rim, 73.7 % fg, 49.8 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 11.7
      efg% 495

      Chris Bosh: 3.8 fga at rim, 75.5 % fg, 69.9 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 8.1
      efg% 546

      Al Horford: 5.2 fga at rim, 76.6 % fg, 76 % assisted.
      Shots outside of rim area per game: 5.6
      efg% 545

    69. nicos

      yellowboy90: What was his numbers against ATL. I thought they were bad too. The thing about George to me is he will have great games then shoot in the 20% range in back to back games.

      Good player not the great player he is getting hyped into.

      So, Next year do they play Granger off the bench or move Paul back to sg? I guess they can trade him too but…

      Much better against ATL- .559 TS% 13.8 TO%.

    70. ruruland

      Conclusions:

      1: Chandler’s finishing rate is actually unimpressive.

      Chandler had the third highest assisted basket % of any big man listed here, and I didn’t list many that I glanced over and couldn’t find a starter that had a higher assisted fg % at rim.

      Despite that, the majority of big men finished a higher percentage of their attempts at the rim.

      2:Call Chandler a cherry-picker.

      Every other player attempted at least TWICE!!! as many fgs outside of the rim area than Chandler, many of them in fewer minutes.

    71. ruruland

      Brook Lopez is the perfect example of how Tyson Chandler games advanced metrics.

      1. Lopez averages 1.3 more shots at the rim per game than Chandler, finishes them at a higher rate (69.4 to 69.3) while getting assisted on far fewer (62.2 to 72.8).

      2. Lopez shoots 2 more free throws per game, while making them at a higher rate (75.8 to 69.4)

      3.Lopez’ offensive rebound % is 3.3 percent lower, but he makes up for it with a turnover % that is 5 percent lower.

      4. Lopez assists on a higher percent of his teammates baskets.

      Want to guess who has the 133 offensive rating and who has the 114? Want to guess who has the higher ws/48 despite blocking nearly twice as many shots (he’s a much better rim protector according to Sloan) .

      That’s right, it’s Lopez.

      And the only reason Lopez is inferior to Chandler statistically is because he takes 6.8 more shots outside of the rim area, helping his team with spacing, taking a burden off his teammates to create later in the shot clock, and actually making those shots at good percentages….

    72. ruruland

      Lopez also had a net +/- twice that of Chandlers.

      ( I know, the Knicks back-ups were so much better than Brooklyn’s. Oh wait, they had WOW MVP candidate Kris Humphries coming off the bench).

    73. Will the Thrill

      I love the senseless vendettas against Knick players solely based on proving metrics wrong or right. Started with Melo, is countered with Chandler, who knows who’s next. Isn’t a healthy Melo and Chandler our best chance at a title in the next 2 years? Unless Melo is truly as average as the WOW aficionados make him out to be and Chandler has now become (permanently) the subpar player that others make him out to be, we are in the best position we are able to be in.

    74. yellowboy90

      Wow, how does Peko get that many attempts at the rim? Wow if Peko could board let’s go Tyson for Peko, Williams, and Ridinour asap.

      My Tyson trades will subside in a few weeks probably.

    75. Kouta

      :
      Vogel is right. Every time we saw a drive, the penetrator just took it to the paint and as Hibbert rotated to defend Tyson or whoever Hibbert was guarding was alone.
      Melo, Felton, JR, any that drove. How many lay ups were blocked or missed?
      He’s a dick, but Vogel is dead on correct.
      I’m a Pacers fan. The Knicks won 54 games, and I’d call that a successful season since the Pacers have only ever won more games than that 5 times. Three of those were done with Reggie Miller as the 2-guard. Of those three Larry Bird was the coach for two of them. The other two happened during the the Pacers ABA days.

    76. max fisher-cohen

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This sounds like a great strategy. Remind me again why you can’t do it in the regular season, please.

      Good teams did, and that resulted in the Knicks being average from December-February. It was pretty similar to Felton’s last outing here. Felton started off hot, opening up the pick and roll game, and then reverted to crappy OTD shooter causing the Knick offense to sputter. Fortunately, this time the Knicks had a second point guard to turn to in Prigioni, who shot 46% on threes as the pick and roll ball handler, and while he didn’t shoot a lot, was really good at slow rolling the pick and roll and fishing out defenders as opposed to Felton who only has two speeds (full throttle penguin and no throttle penguin) and is more easily goaded into that 18 foot jump shot that nobody but him believes is a good shot.

      As far as George goes, he has all the skills — passing, defense, rebounding, scoring off the dribble and spotting up. With the polish that should come in the next season or three, he may well end up a top ten player. His game reminds me a lot of a young Tracy McGrady’s, before he became a great scorer. He’s not quite the athlete McGrady was, but his length, mobility and vision put him in that same category IMO.

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