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Friday, April 18, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jun 28 2013)

  • [New York Times] Oh, Canada: Cavaliers Take Bennett With No. 1 Pick (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:25:51 GMT)
    Anthony Bennett learned he would be making NBA draft history the same time as everyone else.    

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Nets Will Acquire Pierce, Garnett (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 05:01:25 GMT)
    The Brooklyn Nets will acquire Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett from the Boston Celtics in a deal that was still developing as the NBA draft ended, according to a person with knowledge of the details.    

  • [New York Times] Bennett Taken as Top Pick of NBA Draft by Cavaliers (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:46:14 GMT)
    Canadian forward Anthony Bennett of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, was taken with the number one overall pick by the Cleveland Cavaliers, setting the tone for a surprising NBA Draft on Thursday.    

  • [New York Times] Nets Said to Make Deal for Pierce and Garnett (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:31:33 GMT)
    The Nets are said to be looking to swap Gerald Wallace, Kris Humphries and draft picks for the Celtics’ Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce.    

  • [New York Times] Cavs Take Bennett With No. 1 Pick in NBA Draft (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:28:45 GMT)
    Anthony Bennett was stunned at the start. David Stern had a big surprise at the finish.    

  • [New York Times] Garnett, Pierce on Way Out on Night of NBA Draft (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:01:41 GMT)
    The names that Boston Celtics general manager Danny Ainge didn’t mention said all anyone needed to know about how he views the team’s future.    

  • [New York Times] Needing Help at Guard, Knicks Pick Hardaway (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 03:44:45 GMT)
    With the 24th overall pick in the N.B.A. draft, the Knicks chose Michigan’s Tim Hardaway Jr., whose father, as a member of the Heat, battled the Knicks in the late 1990s.    

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies’ New Coach Knows the Team (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 03:11:32 GMT)
    Dave Joerger, the lead assistant under Lionel Hollins the last two seasons, was introduced as coach of the Memphis Grizzlies.    

  • [New York Times] Bennett Taken as Top Pick of NBA Draft by Cavaliers (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 03:10:21 GMT)
    Canadian forward Anthony Bennett of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, was taken with the number one overall pick by the Cleveland Cavaliers, setting the tone for a surprising NBA Draft on Thursday.    

  • [New York Times] U.N.L.V. Star Is No. 1, and Even He Is Surprised (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:33:42 GMT)
    Cleveland selected Anthony Bennett, a big-bodied rebounding specialist from Nevada-Las Vegas who was not projected to go first by many analysts.    

  • [New York Times] Canadian Forward Bennett Leapfrogs Big Men to Top Draft Pick (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:16:14 GMT)
    Canadian Anthony Bennett, a power forward who played one year at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, leaped over a pair of touted centers to emerge as number one pick by the Cleveland Cavaliers at Thursday’s NBA Draft.    

  • [New York Times] First Round Selections in 2013 NBA Draft (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 00:28:29 GMT)
    Top 10 selections in the 2013 NBA Draft on Thursday at the Barclays Center, home of the Brooklyn Nets (pick number, NBA team, player, position, prior team):    

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] So what will the Knicks do next? (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 01:36:40 EDT)
    Now that the New York Knicks have added their draft pick, Tim Hardaway Jr., it’s on to free agency starting July 1. Here’s their order of business:J.R. Smith#8 SGNew York Knicks2013 STATSGM80
    PPG18.1
    RPG5.3
    APG2.7
    FG%.422
    FT%.7621. Re-signing J.R. Smith. GM Glen Grunwald made it clear on Thursday the Knicks don’t want to let him go. “We’re going to do what we can to get J.R. back,” he said. However, that won’t happen if Smith can’t resist a lucrative offer and a chance to start, which he hasn’t done for most of his career, including in New York.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] GM: Hardaway Jr. 'best player available' (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 01:11:38 EDT)
    New York Knicks GM Glen Grunwald thinks Tim Hardaway Jr. can help the Knicks immediately. “He’s a talented young player that can shoot the ball well, is a good athlete and is a really good worker,” Grunwald said. The GM also thought Hardaway Jr. was the best player available to the Knicks when they selected at 24. That was his primary motivation for selecting Hardaway Jr. over players such as UNC forward Reggie Bullock, Murray State guard Isiah Canaan and San Diego State’s Jamal Franklin.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks taking Hardaway Jr. with 24th pick may spell end for J.R. (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 06:02:31 GMT)
    The Knicks selected Tim Hardaway Jr., the son of a bitter rival, with the 24th pick in Thursday’s NBA Draft with an eye on possibly losing Smith to free agency next month.    

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks take Tim Hardaway Jr. with 24th overall pick in NBA draft (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 00:22:50 EDT)
    The Knicks were hoping to find someone who could help them win now and went with the son of a player they loved beating years ago.

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony's shoulder improving without surgery (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 00:16:50 EDT)
    Carmelo Anthony said his left shoulder is feeling "much better." He doesn't think he will need surgery, but he added, "It's still not 100 percent."

  • [New York Post] New York Knicks select Tim Hardaway Jr. in NBA Draft (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 05:27:14 -0500)
    The Knicks are hoping the phrase “like father, like son” will bear fruit at the Garden.
    The Knicks selected Tim Hardaway Jr. last night with the 24th pick in the first round of the NBA Draft. Hardaway’s selection was cheered at Brooklyn’s Barclays Center even though his father…

  • [New York Post] Anthony avoids surgery (Fri, 28 Jun 2013 03:43:13 -0500)
    Carmelo Anthony felt great about a lot of things yesterday — his “dream” of restoring basketball courts at Brooklyn’s Red Hook Apartments where he grew up being just one of the kids.
    Anthony, who winced often during the Knicks’ second-round loss against the Pacers, said his left shoulder is doing…

  • 136 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jun 28 2013)

    1. Brian Cronin

      By the way, while it isn’t much, it is notable that the Nets ended up including MarShon Brooks in the trade. That’s good.

    2. ess-dog

      Also, TH2 does sound like a much nicer, cooler version of JR. There must be a pretty good chance of JR leaving, which frees up 2 roster spots.

      Love the Leslie pick up, just based on his sick athleticism. The guy is a freak.

    3. bidiong

      We’ll see how it works out. I doubt we’ve caught lightening in a bottle. Hopefully we can get some good wing play from TH2 off the bench. That’s if Woodson doesn’t bury him at the end of the bench.

    4. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin:
      By the way, while it isn’t much, it is notable that the Nets ended up including MarShon Brooks in the trade. That’s good.

      I was wondering why he wasnt included so that makes sense

    5. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: no one cares except you cult members, to the rest of us that just means they didn’t rebound enough.

      You didn’t see Leslie’s shooting numbers, did you.

    6. jon abbey

      honestly I don’t pay much attention to shooting numbers in the pros, why would I care about college ones? Shump couldn’t shoot in college, and now he can. you can’t teach athleticism, athletes can sometimes learn to shoot.

    7. er

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You didn’t see Leslie’s shooting numbers, did you.

      http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/north-carolina-state/cj-leslie

      Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
      2012-13 35 32.4 15.1 51.9 33.3 61.2 1.5 7.4 1.2 1.0

      his true shooting is 55% if you click the link you will see that its due to him shooting 6 3s and making 2. and also being a 61% ft shooter.

      I do not see how this can be anything but a positive pick up. He def has a lot of room to improve but its a damn good starting point for a guy who turned 22 three days ago

    8. er

      jon abbey:
      honestly I don’t pay much attention to shooting numbers in the pros, why would I care about college ones? Shump couldn’t shoot in college, and now he can. you can’t teach athleticism, athletes can sometimes learn to shoot.

      Exactly, my one concern is that maybe he needs to put on 15-20 lbs. 6-9 209 is pretty svelte.

    9. thenamestsam

      Obviously the fact that Leslie can’t shoot is a concern, but we’re talking about just a flyer here. It costs nothing to acquire him. With guys like that you’re never going to get complete players, and being able to shoot is one skill I do think you can learn. Now obviously not everyone can learn because there are plenty of NBA players who still can’t shoot, but some guys do lean (SHUMP SHUMP!) and if Leslie turns out to be one of those guys we may have ourselves a player. If not, throw him back on the scrap heap where we found him.

    10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey:
      honestly I don’t pay much attention to shooting numbers in the pros

      I wish you could be the one to run the Knicks into the ground. I’m in awe of your stupidity.

    11. Frank

      jon abbey:
      honestly I don’t pay much attention to shooting numbers in the pros, why would I care about college ones? Shump couldn’t shoot in college, and now he can. you can’t teach athleticism, athletes can sometimes learn to shoot.

      You know I usually agree with you and not THCJ, but I have to side with THCJ this time. If given the chance (and we had many chances), I think you’d rather take the guy that has shown he can be efficient against inferior competition than the guy who hasn’t shown that. And while some guys can learn how to shoot, others can’t despite being the greatest athletes ever — Rondo, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc.

      That said – Re: Hardaway, I think Grunwald has earned the benefit of the doubt on his ability to scout talent and find good players where other people couldn’t. And they like THJ’s demeanor, which on this team is actually probably important, since we have a bunch of hotheads who can’t keep their mouths shut or their elbows away from other players’ chins.

      Re: Leslie – whatever. He’s an undrafted FA with tons of athletic upside. If he can be a 10th man that’s a victory.

      I still wish they’d drafted Franklin – sounded like he had the whole package except his jumper. But he fell a LONG way, so maybe he had other issues we don’t know about.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: You know I usually agree with you and not THCJ, but I have to side with THCJ this time. If given the chance (and we had many chances), I think you’d rather take the guy that has shown he can be efficient against inferior competition than the guy who hasn’t shown that. And while some guys can learn how to shoot, others can’t despite being the greatest athletes ever — Rondo, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc.

      The Spurs put together a team that almost beat the Superfriends through late picks. The Knicks could do that, too, but they’re more worried about filling the 10th spot on the bench. And how do they do it? With “athletic” “projects.”

      It’s a shitty way to run a team, if you ask me. And the Spurs.

    13. jon abbey

      Frank: You know I usually agree with you and not THCJ, but I have to side with THCJ this time.If given the chance (and we had many chances), I think you’d rather take the guy that has shown he can be efficient against inferior competition than the guy who hasn’t shown that.And while some guys can learn how to shoot, others can’t despite being the greatest athletes ever — Rondo, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc.

      that is an odd point, those guys are all great players.

      don’t get me wrong, I’m not crazy about the Hardaway pick, although let’s keep in mind it’s a draft where any player from #1 on down could be a bust. but WP has about as much chance of being insightful as alphabetical order or horoscope signs, as we’ve proven over and over and over in recent years.

    14. er

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Spurs put together a team that almost beat the Superfriends through late picks. The Knicks could do that, too, but they’re more worried about filling the 10th spot on the bench. And how do they do it? With “athletic” “projects.”

      It’s a shitty way to run a team, if you ask me. And the Spurs.

      What late picks are you referring to? Ginobili and Parker who were great albeit lucky foreign selections? Danny Green? who disappeared once the Heat figured out he existed?

    15. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Spurs put together a team that almost beat the Superfriends through late picks. The Knicks could do that, too, but they’re more worried about filling the 10th spot on the bench. And how do they do it? With “athletic” “projects.”

      It’s a shitty way to run a team, if you ask me. And the Spurs.

      To be fair — Kawhi Leonard couldn’t shoot coming out of college. Gary Neal played 1500 minutes this year, took 14.5 shots/36, and had a TS of 51. Cory Joseph played a lot of backup point for them especially in the 2nd half of the year despite not being able to hit the broadside of a barn with a basketball. Their team is built on the backs of the big 3, but also around guys who know how to play and share the ball.

      And re: the 10th spot on the bench – this is an undrafted FA in Leslie we’re talking about, not a 1st round pick. And if you’re talking about Hardaway, at the very least he’s a 2 way player who won’t be making a whole lot more than the league minimum — it’s not like we blew our mini-MLE on him. I would’ve preferred Bullock for his shooting for sure. Maybe Franklin was too much a high usage ball-dominator for them. I don’t know. Or his shot is broken beyond repair.

    16. jon abbey

      the issue with Leslie is what position does he play? he doesn’t shoot well enough for a 3 and he’s not strong enough to defend 4s, at least currently. but he’s a nice pickup as an undrafted FA anyway.

    17. Hubert

      jon abbey: no one cares except you cult members, to the rest of us that just means they didn’t rebound enough.

      That’s funny, before I even got to your post I said to myself: “all that means is they don’t rebound.”

    18. Caleb

      Hardaway is a fine pick – yeah I know, the draft should be about upside and building for the future and that’s not him, but face it – the Knicks are as much in win-now mode as the Nets. If Melo isn’t healthy and Chandler doesn’t come back strong they’ll be lucky to make the playoffs.

      With this roster, all they can do is hope everything goes right, and then slot in guys who can do a few specific things — Hardaway looks like he can hit the 3, and he’s big enough to defend well (and does ok, by rep) so he fills a role. This isn’t a team that needs guys who can be great in 3 years.

      Anyway, we’re doing a total re-set in 2015. Shumpert’s the only real wild card on the roster — Knicks not making any big noise unless he becomes a star or at least an above-average starter. I like him a lot but that takes a real leap of faith…

    19. Hubert

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Spurs put together a team that almost beat the Superfriends through late picks. The Knicks could do that, too, but they’re more worried about filling the 10th spot on the bench. And how do they do it? With “athletic” “projects.”

      It’s a shitty way to run a team, if you ask me. And the Spurs.

      They;ve also come away with Marcus Williams, James Anderson, Cory Joseph, Ian Mahimni, and DeJuan Blair. None of whom are a vital part of their success. Sometimes there isn’t a jewel sitting there waiting to be picked at 24.

      Instead of sitting here bashing the pick, why don’t you stick your neck out and tell us who the magic player available at 24 was that would have transformed us into the San Antonio Spurs?

    20. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Caleb:
      Hardaway is a fine pick – yeah I know, the draft should be about upside and building for the future and that’s not him, but face it – the Knicks are as much in win-now mode as the Nets. If Melo isn’t healthy and Chandler doesn’t come back strong they’ll be lucky to make the playoffs.

      With this roster, all they can do is hope everything goes right, and then slot in guys who can do a few specific things — Hardaway looks like he can hit the 3, and he’s big enough to defend well (and does ok, by rep) so he fills a role. This isn’t a team that needs guys who can be great in 3 years.

      Anyway, we’re doing a total re-set in 2015. Shumpert’s the only real wild card on the roster — Knicks not making any big noise unless he becomes a star or at least an above-average starter. I like him a lot but that takes a real leap of faith…

      That 2015 re-set is the reason I’d have rather we swung for the fences on a boom-or-bust prospect. Short of that, I would have rather we took someone who fills a need with at least one potentially elite skill-set. Crabbe and Bullock are elite spot-up shooters. Franklin has elite defensive potential. Canaan has the potential to be an elite shooter off the dribble.

      FWIW, I was strongly advocating for Canaan given that off the bounce shooting ability. We could have really used a guard who can punish teams for sagging under the PNR screen. We all saw what happened to our offense when teams just decided to ignore the ball-handler and collapse on the dive man: unless Ray was hot that night, just a whole bunch of missed long-2s and re-sets with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. Hardaway is a homeless man’s JR Smith and that is the LAST THING WE NEEDED. Another inefficient chucker who is in love with long 2s and heat-check 3s.

    21. Keniman Shumpwalker

      From SB Nation’s UM blog:

      “The issue is that he hasn’t ever shown the type of consistency fans hoped for. Given his skills, Michigan fans always waited for a true breakout. It never came, and Hardaway Jr. spent his career as a dangerous streaky scorer that was capable of disappearing for long stretches. He might manage a quiet 12 points or so, but it would be on a lot of missed threes, and he would often settle for forcing long jumpers instead of trying to attack the basket and open up things for his outside shot. Against one of Michigan’s biggest rivals, Michigan State, Hardaway put up two awful performances this last season, and his production fell off late in the NCAA tournament.”

      Boy that sounds eerily similar to Earl Joseph Smith III.

    22. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Do I think this pick dooms us to 2nd round and out (or worse)? No. Are we “fucked” because of this pick? No. But I think that there were much smarter ways to use this pick so I’m disappointed.

    23. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Here’s the DX scouting report on Canaan, as it relates to his off the bounce and spot-up shooting ability…given that we could lose Pablo and that Woody loves his 2 PG Sets, I think Canaan was our guy.

      “Canaan is extremely comfortable shooting off the dribble, ranking #1 in this category amongst college basketball players (minimum 80 possessions) according to Synergy Sports Technology at 1.1 points per possession. The only draft prospect who can compete with him in this area is Trey Burke, who makes a slightly higher percentage of his pull-up jumpers (45% as opposed to 43%) but makes fewer off the dribble 3-pointers, which gives Canaan the edge. Canaan is able to steady himself and get good elevation and balance on his jump shot coming off the pick and roll, with a quick release that is hard for opponents to defend. This ability to shoot off the dribble and coming off of picks provides the primary intrigue in Canaan at the next level.

      He’s equally as proficient in catch and shoot situations (44%, 1.3 PPP), although he gets far less of these (two per game as opposed to six pull-ups) due to his role as the dominant focal point of Murray State’s offense. Canaan does a good of being in position to receive the pass and has an extremely quick release with good follow through, and is deadly with even the slightest bit of separation, something that he isn’t afforded with regularity due to opposing teams game planning against him. As a freshman, carrying a much lighter offensive load, Canaan made 48% of his 3-pointers on a healthy amount of attempts.”

    24. Vinny L.

      Hardaway is a great guy but the Knicks went for name recognition over perimeter talent, physically and upside. They’re going to regret not taking Jamaal Franklin (Tony Allen 2.0 that could replace JR), Allen Crabbe (Reggie Miller 2.0 that could replace Cope), Isaiah Canaan (replace Prig), or even Erick Green (replace Prig).

      One of these guys are going to burn the Knicks in the future. Watch!

    25. Vinny L.

      ESPN:

      NEW YORK KNICKS | GRADE: C

      Round 1: Tim Hardaway Jr. (24)

      Analysis: The Knicks got name recognition on Thursday, but unfortunately, Hardaway Jr. is no Hardaway Sr.

      Hardaway Jr. does have great size for his position and he’s a good shooter, but his game is pretty forgettable, as three years at Michigan demonstrated. He was able to win over coaches and teams with his professionalism and work ethic in workouts.

      But I’m not sure that his talent allows him to have a ceiling any higher than rotation player.

      MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES | GRADE: A

      Round 2: Jamaal Franklin (41)

      Analysis: Franklin was ranked 19th on my Big Board yet somehow managed to land in the Grizzlies’ lap at No. 41. I’m stunned. To me, he’s Tony Allen 2.0 — an aggressive, long wing who can do a bit of everything. I love this pick.

      PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS | GRADE: A

      Round 1: C.J. McCollum (10)

      Round 2: Allen Crabbe (31)

      Analysis: Portland GM Neil Olshey must believe the Blazers need more offense in their backcourt, as they drafted two of the most aggressive scorers and best shooters in the draft.

      The Blazers had coveted McCollum for a while and think he’s a great fit in the backcourt next to rookie of the year point guard Damian Lillard, who thrived when he played off the ball last season. Portland sees McCollum as a guard who can play both positions, too.

      Crabbe is a shooter with ridiculous range, and he isn’t afraid to let if fly.

      HOUSTON ROCKETS | GRADE: B+

      Round 2: Isaiah Canaan (34)

      Analysis: The Rockets also didn’t have a first-round pick but essentially got one anyway at No. 34. Canaan might have been the fourth-best point guard in the draft, and I think Houston got great value. Canaan isn’t a pure point guard, but he’s a great athlete and a dominant scorer who can really shoot the ball. Not a lot of second-rounders stick in the NBA. I think Canaan will be one who does.

    26. Frank

      most hilarious part of the twitter storm going on during the draft last night was when Woj tweeted the wrong team trading for Trey Burke – and then suddenly all these other writers were quoting “sources” reporting the same incorrect team. then Woj corrected himself and everyone else magically corrected themselves too. Just Woj trolling.

    27. Zanzibar

      Any chance Isiah picked up the phone and lobbied for Hardaway Jr to Dolan on behalf of the father? The one thing Isiah did excel at was the draft.

    28. danvt

      I’m with you on this. I don’t think any of those guys we passed on is as good as others we’ve passed on who’ve made us look bad (Rondo, Lawson, etc.) The one thing about reading this blog is that there’s almost universal consensus about the worst or close to the worst outcomes coming true and then, big surprise, Someone turned out to be pretty good who we didn’t think would necessarily be (Shumpert) or we hadn’t ever even heard of (Copeland). The important thing is that our top 5 stay healthy and get in a groove with each other. So, relax, the kid will fit in nice if everything else is working around him.

      If you want something to feel angsty about I do think we’re gonna miss player / coach Jason Kidd. He was the antidote to iso ball. We really need Prigioni back.

      Frank: Re: Hardaway, I think Grunwald has earned the benefit of the doubt on his ability to scout talent and find good players where other people couldn’t. And they like THJ’s demeanor, which on this team is actually probably important, since we have a bunch of hotheads who can’t keep their mouths shut or their elbows away from other players’ chins.

    29. flossy

      Keniman Shumpwalker:
      Here’s the DX scouting report on Canaan, as it relates to his off the bounce and spot-up shooting ability…given that we could lose Pablo and that Woody loves his 2 PG Sets, I think Canaan was our guy.

      “Canaan is extremely comfortable shooting off the dribble, ranking #1 in this category amongst college basketball players (minimum 80 possessions) according to Synergy Sports Technology at 1.1 points per possession. The only draft prospect who can compete with him in this area is Trey Burke, who makes a slightly higher percentage of his pull-up jumpers (45% as opposed to 43%) but makes fewer off the dribble 3-pointers, which gives Canaan the edge. Canaan is able to steady himself and get good elevation and balance on his jump shot coming off the pick and roll, with a quick release that is hard for opponents to defend. This ability to shoot off the dribble and coming off of picks provides the primary intrigue in Canaan at the next level.

      He’s equally as proficient in catch and shoot situations (44%, 1.3 PPP), although he gets far less of these (two per game as opposed to six pull-ups) due to his role as the dominant focal point of Murray State’s offense. Canaan does a good of being in position to receive the pass and has an extremely quick release with good follow through, and is deadly with even the slightest bit of separation, something that he isn’t afforded with regularity due to opposing teams game planning against him. As a freshman, carrying a much lighter offensive load, Canaan made 48% of his 3-pointers on a healthy amount of attempts.”

      Caanan is tiny, turns the ball over a ton and is a mediocre playmaker at best. Why blow a first round pick on a 6’0″ shooting guard? Would we want a rookie dominating the ball and shooting off the dribble a lot? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

    30. jon abbey

      danvt:
      If you want something to feel angsty about I do think we’re gonna miss player / coach Jason Kidd.He was the antidote to iso ball.

      that guy was gone by January or so, he killed us down the stretch and especially in the playoffs. as I said early in the playoffs here, “if Kidd was the coach, no way he would keep playing Kidd the player”, of course not knowing how quickly he would actually make that transition.

    31. flossy

      Vinny L.: Allen Crabbe (Reggie Miller 2.0

      GTFO with this stupidity! I don’t love the Hardaway pick but it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the Knicks passed up the next Reggie Miller. It’s the 24th pick in a mediocre draft, jesus. Like Allen Crabbe is some surefire stud? Please.

    32. Frank

      Looking at these pictures of THJ and TH Sr. at the Knicks facility today — and I don’t have any hate anymore for TH Sr. Those were hard-fought physical series, and he was a worthy opponent. And look how happy he looks for his son even though he was drafted by the Knicks. Good stuff.

      NY_KnicksPR: Family. http://t.co/kfhqzKVqgi

    33. Keniman Shumpwalker

      flossy: Caanan is tiny, turns the ball over a ton and is a mediocre playmaker at best.Why blow a first round pick on a 6’0? shooting guard?Would we want a rookie dominating the ball and shooting off the dribble a lot?I sure as hell wouldn’t.

      His TO% was barely more than Trey Burke’s. True, he’s not a pure PG but even a mediocre playmaker who excels shooting off the dribble would be, IMO, a more useful piece for our bench than a volume shooter with a propensity for taking bad shots. He’s also got a decent wingspan and is a terrific athlete, which can obviously mask the lack of height, to a certain extent.

    34. flossy

      Keniman Shumpwalker: His TO% was barely more than Trey Burke’s. True, he’s not a pure PG but even a mediocre playmaker who excels shooting off the dribble would be, IMO, a more useful piece for our bench than a volume shooter with a propensity for taking bad shots. He’s also got a decent wingspan and is a terrific athlete, which can obviously mask the lack of height, to a certain extent.

      4:3 ast/to ratio. That’s not a PG. No interest in pint-size SGs who are used to having the ball in their hands. We might as well sign Nate Robinson.

    35. Frank

      I’ve come to terms with this.
      We needed a perimeter player that is a 2 way player. Hardaway is some semblance of a 2 way player at least. He’s not one-dimensional on offense like Bullock, and has a good defensive rep. And while I still wish they had drafted Franklin, maybe there are serious broken shot issues with him.

      It’s fine. The fit is good. The upside maybe not. But like Brian Gibberman wrote at the Knicks Wall:

      After the Knicks drafted Iman Shumpert, I went on a Matt Moore/Mike Conley-esque rant about how angry I was they picked Shumpert over Chris Singleton.
      Basically, I made a complete ass of myself. I’ve learned since then that being definitive about things regarding the NBA Draft is dumb and ridiculous. The people who get paid to scout for a living can’t figure it out consistently, so there is no way I’m going to be able to.
      There are too many variables and unknowns, as players transition from college to the NBA to really nail down how one’s game will adjust.

      I feel the same way.

    36. danvt

      jon abbey: that guy was gone by January or so, he killed us down the stretch and especially in the playoffs.

      He got steals just based on incredible anticipation even once his foot speed had betrayed him. His shot failed him but the ethic he brought to the team was really remarkable. He was ironically the incarnation of D’Antoni ball on the court. He was a triple single waiting to happen. I wonder if he can make it work without being actually out there. Either way, with the way the ball sticks to Melo and JR, we might really lose our flow without his or Prigioni’s ridiculous unselfishness.

    37. Keniman Shumpwalker

      flossy: 4:3 ast/to ratio.That’s not a PG.No interest in pint-size SGs who are used to having the ball in their hands.We might as well sign Nate Robinson.

      It’s a fair point. He’s not a true PG (though he does have some playmaking ability out of PNR sets), but I still sweat his off-the-dribble shooting potential. Like I said earlier though, I’m not jumping off a cliff because of this pick. And Frank is right as well at #39; it is foolish to jump to any hard-line conclusions in the immediate aftermath of the draft. I’ve just never been a fan of THJs game, especially as it relates to our lineup context. I’m terrified at the brain-lock/heat-check potential of a 2nd unit featuring both JR and THJ and can envision them chucking us out of many a W.

    38. massive

      I’ve come to terms with the Hardaway Jr pick. He looks like he’ll turn into a rich man’s Danny Green. The way Miami made Danny Green disappear in Games 6 & 7 (because they made him put it on the floor and create) doesn’t project to be a problem for Hardaway because he’s more athletic and is good on line drives to the basket. His skill-set is good enough to start on the Knicks right now. He’ll come in right away and be able to knock down 3s or take it to the tin if teams close too fast. Basically, he has a shot to come in and play the Jason Kidd role from Day 1.

      I’m almost certain that his shooting efficiency was so pedestrian because he wasn’t a good free throw shooter. I think he’ll work that out and be a mid-high 80s free throw shooter as a pro, though.

    39. massive

      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cj-leslie-1.html

      I really like CJ Leslie. A lot of people here think he has a long way to go before he can contribute on a winning team, but he can really play. He was the best player on NC State last year. He’ll bring energy, aggression, and solid positional defense at the power forward spot. He’s a power forward, though. Make no mistake about it. I can see him as a token starter at some time during the season when Amar’e Stoudemire inevitably misses a couple (and I’m hoping it’s just a couple) games.

    40. er

      massive:
      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cj-leslie-1.html

      I really like CJ Leslie. A lot of people here think he has a long way to go before he can contribute on a winning team, but he can really play. He was the best player on NC State last year. He’ll bring energy, aggression, and solid positional defense at the power forward spot. He’s a power forward, though. Make no mistake about it. I can see him as a token starter at some time during the season when Amar’e Stoudemire inevitably misses a couple (and I’m hoping it’s just a couple) games.

      yea good analysis, just needs to hit the weight room alil

    41. BigBlueAL

      I know it doesnt really matter much but except for Bullock every other player who was a potential pick for the Knicks at 24 slid into the 2nd round. So it wasnt like the Knicks passed on players who teams behind them immediately signed. The fact that many of them went in the 2nd round means most of them probably wont even be on an NBA roster on opening day.

    42. d-mar

      Frank:
      Looking at these pictures of THJ and TH Sr. at the Knicks facility today — and I don’t have any hate anymore for TH Sr.Those were hard-fought physical series, and he was a worthy opponent. And look how happy he looks for his son even though he was drafted by the Knicks. Good stuff.

      NY_KnicksPR: Family. http://t.co/kfhqzKVqgi

      Yeah, but I can’t help remembering one of the most hateful (and stupid) quotes ever to come out of an athlete’s mouth:

      Feb. 2007 –

      “You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known,” Hardaway said. “I don’t like gay people and I don’t like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don’t like it. It shouldn’t be in the world or in the United States.”

      Hopefully his son is a little more tolerant.

    43. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      d-mar: Yeah, but I can’t help remembering one of the most hateful (and stupid) quotes ever to come out of an athlete’s mouth:

      Feb. 2007 –

      “You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known,” Hardaway said. “I don’t like gay people and I don’t like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don’t like it. It shouldn’t be in the world or in the United States.”

      Hopefully his son is a little more tolerant.

      Seems like Hardaway has really educated himself on the issues. Lots of stuff in his Wikipedia showing that he’s contrite and actively working to undo the harm he did.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hardaway

    44. Frank

      Interesting FA names out there with our mini-MLE should we let Cope and/or Prigs go– via SI.com– Dorell Wright and Mike Dunleavy. I think both would go well with this team.

    45. Frank

      max fisher-cohen:
      Not that this means much, but it’s fun to watch — Tim Hardaway at Chicago draft camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnTQW7DrnN8

      that was pretty awesome. they say he shot the lights out there and I guess that’s video proof!

      I’m in no way a shooting coach, but I remember Shump saying that one of the major things Hopla changed was that he was jumping too high on his shots– like he was doing a full vertical on every shot. And once he controlled his jump better, his accuracy improved. Just watching that video of Hardaway made me think the same thing — in the game highlights he was jumping pretty high – much less so in this combine video.

    46. flossy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Seems like Hardaway has really educated himself on the issues. Lots of stuff in his Wikipedia showing that he’s contrite and actively working to undo the harm he did.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hardaway

      Yeah it’s true. This happened a couple years ago in El PAso:

      “In town for a golf outing, Hardaway attended a press conference urging citizens to oppose recall efforts against Mayor John Cook and city Reps. Susie Byrd and Steve Ortega. The three are being recalled by a group of religious conservatives who are angry the three voted to restore health benefits for gay and unmarried partners of city employees — despite a ballot initiative in November that had abolished them.”

      http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_18714224

    47. flossy

      Some Rondo to the Knicks rumors are swirling around the NBA twitter toilet bowl. There’s no way we’re lucky enough. Even if Boston is desperate to tank for Wiggins, they wouldn’t help out *another* division rival, right? And we’d still have to trade probably Shumpert and Chandler?

    48. Spree8nyk8

      If he really feels that way then we made a mistake last year resigning woodson, we should have brought JVG back.

    49. ruruland

      Frank:
      Interesting FA names out there with our mini-MLE should we let Cope and/or Prigs go– via SI.com– Dorell Wright and Mike Dunleavy.I think both would go well with this team.

      Ya think?

    50. ruruland

      danvt: He got steals just based on incredible anticipation even once his foot speed had betrayed him.His shot failed him but the ethic he brought to the team was really remarkable.He was ironically the incarnation of D’Antoni ball on the court.He was a triple single waiting to happen.I wonder if he can make it work without being actually out there.Either way, with the way the ball sticks to Melo and JR, we might really lose our flow without his or Prigioni’s ridiculous unselfishness.

      Most of the flow issues relate to being unable to threaten the defense with the ball, not simply an unwillingness to pass, thought that was also the case at times, especially with Jr and his tunnel vision.

      The Heat don’t have great flow simply because they are unselfish, but because Lebron, Wade, Chalmers, Norris etc. can all take multiple steps towards the basket and force help.

      Kidd’s presence on the floor necessitated more than one rim threat, which often wasn’t the case. Smart defenses wouldn’t cover him at all. That KILLS flow.

      Prigs is great because he can threaten the defense at every level and passes first. the more willing Prigs became shooting and finishing, the more opportunities he had to pass.

    51. ruruland

      danvt:
      I’m with you on this.I don’t think any of those guys we passed on is as good as others we’ve passed on who’ve made us look bad (Rondo, Lawson, etc.)The one thing about reading this blog is that there’s almost universal consensus about the worst or close to the worst outcomes coming true and then, big surprise, Someone turned out to be pretty good who we didn’t think would necessarily be (Shumpert) or we hadn’t ever even heard of (Copeland).The important thing is that our top 5 stay healthy and get in a groove with each other.So, relax, the kid will fit in nice if everything else is working around him.

      If you want something to feel angsty about I do think we’re gonna miss player / coach Jason Kidd.He was the antidote to iso ball.We really need Prigioni back.

      How much information do you think fans work with in comparison to Glen Grunwald? 10 percent, 20 percent?

      How many conversations do you think Grunwald and his team have had with those who know THJ? Is it possible that the Knicks have come at this at a variety of angles in terms of projection and fit?

    52. jon abbey

      Spree8nyk8:
      If he really feels that way then we made a mistake last year resigning woodson, we should have brought JVG back.

      not sure why people think he is a good coach, he was one of the worst offensive coaches in league history, unbelievably predictable. I’ll take Woodson over Van Gundy, thanks.

    53. jon abbey

      ruruland: How much information do you think fans work with in comparison to Glen Grunwald? 10 percent, 20 percent?

      How many conversations do you think Grunwald and his team have had with those who know THJ? Is it possible that the Knicks have come at this at a variety of angles in terms of projection and fit?

      while this is all true, don’t act like drafting is a science.

    54. maxwell_3g

      Vinny L.:
      Hardaway is a great guy but the Knicks went for name recognition over perimeter talent, physically and upside. They’re going to regret not taking Jamaal Franklin (Tony Allen 2.0 that could replace JR), Allen Crabbe (Reggie Miller 2.0 that could replace Cope), Isaiah Canaan (replace Prig), or even Erick Green (replace Prig).

      One of these guys are going to burn the Knicks in the future. Watch!

      soooooo, there is someone that you are calling Reggie Miller 2.0, and the best he can do is “replace Cope”??

    55. maxwell_3g

      d-mar: Yeah, but I can’t help remembering one of the most hateful (and stupid) quotes ever to come out of an athlete’s mouth:

      Feb. 2007 –

      “You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known,” Hardaway said. “I don’t like gay people and I don’t like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don’t like it. It shouldn’t be in the world or in the United States.”

      Hopefully his son is a little more tolerant.

      holding a 2007 quote on a subject that is rapidly evolving in our collective mindset is a little harsh. many of our “leaders: just recently converted to the progressive view on gay marriage and the like. 2007 is a lifetime ago on this issue. I do not condone his views back them and he was criticized for them, but I do not assume that he still holds those views today. people change

    56. Hubert

      ruruland: How much information do you think fans work with in comparison to Glen Grunwald? 10 percent, 20 percent?

      How many conversations do you think Grunwald and his team have had with those who know THJ? Is it possible that the Knicks have come at this at a variety of angles in terms of projection and fit?

      Wait you mean Grunwald has better info than THCJ and WoW bookmark?

      Still waiting for you to stick your neck out, THCJ, and tell us who was available that the Knicks should have taken at 24 if we were as smart as San Antonio.

    57. Hubert

      jon abbey: not sure why people think he is a good coach, he was one of the worst offensive coaches in league history, unbelievably predictable. I’ll take Woodson over Van Gundy, thanks.

      I always felt he failed to get the most of the Houston-Sprewell pairing. Man, if this board were around in 2000, shit. The debates we’d have about that!

    58. ruruland

      jon abbey: while this is all true, don’t act like drafting is a science.

      Of course not. But it’s much closer to a science than it was 20 years ago for the teams that know how to use all of their tools/toys.

      still probably not close though, haha. people tend to change a lot in their early 20s, in both directions.

    59. Brian Cronin

      not sure why people think he is a good coach, he was one of the worst offensive coaches in league history, unbelievably predictable. I’ll take Woodson over Van Gundy, thanks.

      He’s a defensive coach. That’s like saying Tom Thibodeau sucks because he only got into the top 10 in offense once in his three years in Chicago. Van Gundy took over a Houston team that was 14th in defense and then got them to the top five the next season using the same starting lineup they had the previous year and that starting lineup had (along with admittedly the great Yao Ming, but the great Yao Ming was also on the 14th ranked team the previous year) Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Jim Jackson and Mo Taylor. Come on, that’s an amazing turnaround. And he kept them there. Just like his Knicks’ teams never didn’t dominate in defense. He turned Glen Rice into a good defender, for crying out loud! The Knicks were a top 3 defense with Glen Rice and Allan Houston being two of the top three minute-getters on the team!

    60. massive

      In fairness to the Knicks, they aren’t necessarily known for blowing draft picks. We blew it big time in 2009, but we got a good player in the first round in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2011. Last year, we took another good player but foolishly traded him away. If we go with track record, Nate Robinson, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, and Iman Shumpert are all players we took in recent history. We missed on Jordan Hill, but we usually draft serviceable players.

      From what I’ve seen of TH Jr over the past day, his game isn’t as bad as his numbers are. I look at him and see a better Danny Green. He has all of the same strengths as Green + the ability to put it on the floor. I think he’ll be a very good per minute player for us next season. He’s very likely to take all of Steve Novak’s minutes next season, and he definitely has a shot to start (Felton/Hardaway/Shumpert/Melo/Chandler). I would have preferred Bullock because he’s a more natural 3 and a better defender, but the Knicks worked both of them out and chose Hardaway Jr. I trust the Knicks when it comes to the draft since they’re probably a top dozen drafting team in the league. Chicago, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Denver, Utah, and Portland are probably the only teams that are clearly better than the Knicks when it comes to drafting. We just trade away our picks too often.

    61. danvt

      Thanks for the attention Ruruland. I agree that Kidd’s lack of actual game cost us by the end, but, his teams always had a different look on offense from most teams and ours was no exception. The ball movement at times last season was a dream come true. It was more than just a great player creating space. It was a team wide effort. Sometimes the clock would run out while we passed up good shots for better ones.

      ruruland: Most of the flow issues relate to being unable to threaten the defense with the ball, not simply an unwillingness to pass, thought that was also the case at times, especially with Jr and his tunnel vision.

    62. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin: He’s a defensive coach. That’s like saying Tom Thibodeau sucks because he only got into the top 10 in offense once in his three years in Chicago. Van Gundy took over a Houston team that was 14th in defense and then got them to the top five the next season using the same starting lineup they had the previous year and that starting lineup had (along with admittedly the great Yao Ming, but the great Yao Ming was also on the 14th ranked team the previous year) Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Jim Jackson and Mo Taylor. Come on, that’s an amazing turnaround. And he kept them there. Just like his Knicks’ teams never didn’t dominate in defense. He turned Glen Rice into a good defender, for crying out loud! The Knicks were a top 3 defense with Glen Rice and Allan Houston being two of the top three minute-getters on the team!

      great, hire him as an assistant then, or let someone else run the offense. I also think he comes off as pretty stupid on TV, I am not and have never been a fan.

    63. danvt

      massive: I look at him and see a better Danny Green.

      If he ends up better than Danny Green he’s the steal of the draft. Danny Green just made a finals record number of three point shots. I’ve seen some flippant references to Danny Green on this board. I’d be happy with a poor man’s Danny Green. Danny Green is awesome.

    64. danvt

      jon abbey: I also think he comes off as pretty stupid on TV, I am not and have never been a fan.

      Seriously? I always thought of him as pretty down to earth and cool. Less hyperbolic and less buying into the hype about things. Didn’t he have the right perspective on the whole Hibbert, “straight up and down thing”. I thought he was the only guy who saw that he might have been fouling with the body.

      Who do you like?

    65. jon abbey

      danvt: Seriously?I always thought of him as pretty down to earth and cool.Less hyperbolic and less buying into the hype about things.Didn’t he have the right perspective on the whole Hibbert, “straight up and down thing”.I thought he was the only guy who saw that he might have been fouling with the body.

      Who do you like?

      he comes off as a clown way too often, trying to take positions just for the sake of being ‘controversial’ and flip-flopping too easily.

      most announcers in every sport suck, but Steve Kerr is great.

    66. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Hubert: Wait you mean Grunwald has better info than THCJ and WoW bookmark?

      Still waiting for you to stick your neck out, THCJ, and tell us who was available that the Knicks should have taken at 24 if we were as smart as San Antonio.

      Stick my neck out? Hah. I stuck my neck out in 2011 and Kawhi Leonard was my pick. Whoops!

      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/reggie-bullock-2.html

      How about the player selected after him? .210 WS/48? 8th in the NCAA in ORTG?

      I know that college projections are iffy, but why the FUCK would you take Tim Hardaway? Because his dad played?

      Austin Rivers…………………

      AUSTIIIIIIIIIIIIIN RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVERRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSS

    67. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: How much information do you think fans work with in comparison to Glen Grunwald? 10 percent, 20 percent?

      How many conversations do you think Grunwald and his team have had with those who know THJ? Is it possible that the Knicks have come at this at a variety of angles in terms of projection and fit?

      lol ok d00d da nab FO GMs r defenetely nowlegable exparts

    68. massive

      danvt: If he ends up better than Danny Green he’s the steal of the draft.Danny Green just made a finals record number of three point shots.I’ve seen some flippant references to Danny Green on this board.I’d be happy with a poor man’s Danny Green.Danny Green is awesome.

      Danny Green isn’t as awesome as his teammates made him look. They got him open looks and he made them. As soon as Miami acknowledged his existence he was ineffective. I’m saying that Hardaway Jr has the ability to put it on the floor against an over-aggressive defense like Miami that Danny Green doesn’t have.

      Danny Green didn’t break any record because he created his own opportunities. He’s a great 3 point shooter, but he broke the record because:
      1) Miami is notoriously vulnerable to the 3 ball.
      2) San Antonio is the best ball-movement team in the entire league.
      3) Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili know how to find open teammates.
      4) Gregg Poppovich is an excellent coach.

    69. massive

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Stick my neck out? Hah. I stuck my neck out in 2011 and Kawhi Leonard was my pick. Whoops!

      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/reggie-bullock-2.html

      How about the player selected after him? .210 WS/48? 8th in the NCAA in ORTG?

      I know that college projections are iffy, but why the FUCK would you take Tim Hardaway? Because his dad played?

      Austin Rivers…………………

      AUSTIIIIIIIIIIIIIN RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVERRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSS

      I honestly remember Kenneth Faried being your pick. You hated everything when we passed on him for Shumpert even though he was rated well by WoW. Not that sticking your neck out for Kenneth Faried is a bad thing (he’s a great young player), but sticking your neck out for a guy who was projected by everyone to be a Wizard with the #6 pick and then fell to #15 isn’t impressive. I’m sure everyone would have been overjoyed if Leonard was the pick at #17.

    70. dtrickey

      I love reading up on the comments and views on this blog, partly because it’s good to see what other intelligent Knicks supporters are thinking and not just the ramblings of trolls and people who refer to the team as “da knickz”. However I must admit there have been some massive overreactions to drafting TH2.

      Fact of the matter is we picked at 24 in a draft devoid of true star potential even in the top 10. Anyone picking outside the lottery would be taking a big punt on a player that was projected to be nothing more than a acceptable starter or solid role player. How about we calm our tits and see how this plays out.

      We weren’t drafting for a superstar to rocket us into the Finals, but a prospect that could contribute and fill a need for cheap. I think we got that with TH2. Admittedly I didn’t see us going for him, but let’s see what he can do before we write this pick off. I seem to remember the same things being said on this board about Shump, and now here we are talking about him being a potential start player and future face of the franchise.

    71. massive

      jon abbey:
      everyone is the next Danny Green now, people really need to stop with that.

      Well, being the next Danny Green isn’t exactly groundbreaking. He’s a role-playing 2 guard who hits open 3s at a high rate and moves the ball. The Knicks and the Spurs play similar styles of basketball (except we run more isos), so I don’t find it to be much of a reach to say Tim Hardaway Jr can have a similar career to Danny Green. Green is not a better player than Jared Dudley. Don’t let his role on the Spurs fool you.

      Comparing Hardaway Jr to Green isn’t as ridiculous as some of the Shump comparisons that have happened around here.

    72. jon abbey

      massive: I honestly remember Kenneth Faried being your pick. You hated everything when we passed on him for Shumpert even though he was rated well by WoW. Not that sticking your neck out for Kenneth Faried is a bad thing (he’s a great young player), but sticking your neck out for a guy who was projected by everyone to be a Wizard with the #6 pick and then fell to #15 isn’t impressive. I’m sure everyone would have been overjoyed if Leonard was the pick at #17.

      heh, yeah, Leonard wasn’t on the board when we picked. Faried is a good answer too, though.

    73. dtrickey

      Also how are people feeling about the Nets/Celtics trade? I’m so-so just because of how many 1st rounders they gave up to get 3 guys past their prime. KG and Pierce are still useful, but it’s a pretty big gamble in my books. I think they’ll regret giving up the 2014 pick given that class is going to be balls deep.

      Knicks have also been bumped from top 4 conversations. I personally don’t mind the team flying under the radar, but I will be interested to see in the Nets cop as much flak for having an old team as the Knicks did. Difference being the Knicks signed old end of the bench 10-15 minute players, not starters.

    74. JK47

      Garnett will be 37 and Pierce will be 36. They’ve both already shown clear signs of decline. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from watching the Knicks my whole life it’s that players in their late thirties are very high fall-off-the-cliff risks. The Nets will probably make some noise next year, but it’s only a matter of time before the wheels fall off. The Garnett-Pierce Nets are not gonna win a chip, but they’ll probably be a good regular season team next year and give their fans some delusional hope. You know, kind of like this past year’s Knicks.

    75. Z

      ruruland: How much information do you think fans work with in comparison to Glen Grunwald? 10 percent, 20 percent?

      How many conversations do you think Grunwald and his team have had with those who know THJ? Is it possible that the Knicks have come at this at a variety of angles in terms of projection and fit?

      You really don’t understand the Knicks, do you?

    76. danvt

      I agree with your basic premise. I just think that if TH2 is in the rotation and finishing at that level or even close it’s a gigantic win.

      massive: Danny Green isn’t as awesome as his teammates made him look. They got him open looks and he made them. As soon as Miami acknowledged his existence he was ineffective. I’m saying that Hardaway Jr has the ability to put it on the floor against an over-aggressive defense like Miami that Danny Green doesn’t have.

    77. Frank

      Danny Green is one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He’s also a plus defender on the ball and in help. He was a very important contributor on a team that had a 99% chance of winning the NBA championship with 25 seconds left in game 6. A poor man’s Danny Green would be a victory with this pick for Pete’s sake.

    78. max fisher-cohen

      The nets are almost definitely looking at a 1 season window. It’s not just Pierce and Garnett who are old — Johnson is 32 as well. TBH though, the move the nets just made is just the kind of move I had hoped the Knicks would make. If you’re going to throw the future under the bus, then at least fully commit to that strategy. Would Shumpert, Stoudemire and our 2018 1st rounder have superceded Brooklyn’s offer? Stoudemire’s contract is no worse than Wallace/Humphries’s.

    79. ruruland

      Frank:
      Danny Green is one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He’s also a plus defender on the ball and in help. He was a very important contributor on a team that had a 99% chance of winning the NBA championship with 25 seconds left in game 6. A poor man’s Danny Green would be a victory with this pick for Pete’s sake.

      Felix would have been my guy (to be the next Green), like I said a month ago when no one had him even getting drafted. Great length, explosive athlete, can guard 1-4, heats ball relentlessly, makes open 3′s and developed a lot in short amount of time.

    80. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen:
      The nets are almost definitely looking at a 1 season window. It’s not just Pierce and Garnett who are old — Johnson is 32 as well. TBH though, the move the nets just made is just the kind of move I had hoped the Knicks would make. If you’re going to throw the future under the bus, then at least fully commit to that strategy. Would Shumpert, Stoudemire and our 2018 1st rounder have superceded Brooklyn’s offer? Stoudemire’s contract is no worse than Wallace/Humphries’s.

      Uh, except that Shumpert and Stoudemire have a chance to be better than Pierce/KG next year.

      I mean, is there not at least a somewhat similar chance that both of those guys hit the age cliff than Stat doesn’t stay healthy or Shumpert’s growth stagnates?
      I’d actually take the Knicks side of the wager on that one.

      Pierce couldn’t dribble and move at the same time in the playoffs. He looked like he who might have already reached the end.

      KG, I mean, the guy runs on all guts, but even he was missing uncontested layups throughout the Knicks series.

      Both of those guys are really close. History shows us some guys go right to the bottom (read: Jason Kidd)

    81. JK47

      Paul Pierce stunk out the joint in the playoffs against us. He had a negative WS/48 and a .484 TS%. He’s a 36 year old wing. Would you be super psyched to have that guy on the Knicks? His regular season WS/48 and TS% were his lowest since the 2004 season. I know those two stats aren’t the be-all, end-all of basketball, but still. The dude is probably not gonna be real good for a whole lot longer.

      Garnett had probably his worst season since Bill Clinton was in office. The Nets offense may actually kind of stink.

    82. ruruland

      JK47:
      Paul Pierce stunk out the joint in the playoffs against us.He had a negative WS/48 and a .484 TS%.He’s a 36 year old wing.Would you be super psyched to have that guy on the Knicks?His regular season WS/48 and TS% were his lowest since the 2004 season.I know those two stats aren’t the be-all, end-all of basketball, but still.The dude is probably not gonna be real good for a whole lot longer.

      Garnett had probably his worst season since Bill Clinton was in office.The Nets offense may actually kind of stink.

      Looked it up last night. Pierce’s offensive rating in the playoffs was the 9th lowest of all-time for players who played at least 6 playoff games and averaged 30 or more minutes.

      39 made field goals and 32 turnovers.

      Secondly, who the hell is going to guard Melo on that team?

      Frankly, if the Celtics land say, O.J. Mayo, Kevin Martin, go in for Iggy or Josh Smith, that’s a team that probably scares me A LOT more than Brooklyn.

      Rondo,Bradley, Green, Bass/Sullinger, Olynyk/Melo

      Bench: Gerald Wallace, Lee, Marshan Brooks,

      They’ll defend and run.

    83. max fisher-cohen

      @ruru

      Yeah, but those two still led Boston two 2 playoff wins over NY, and I’d say that Stoudemire has far more a chance after two dead seasons in a row, but I agree that it would have been a big risk, just a different kind of risk. I understand your point though. Were basically just disagreeing about 1 year.

    84. massive

      ruruland:
      Secondly, who the hell is going to guard Melo on that team?

      Exactly. I think they’d make KG play Melo so he can pull his shoulder and tear his labrum again.

      I’d just like to take this time out of my day to say that the Knicks’ medical staff sucks and shouldn’t have let Melo’s shoulder heal on its own. Dolan invested $87 million on him to perform at his best, not for us to be practicing holistic medicine on him. I really don’t like how they’re just being all “well let’s put ice on our franchise player’s shoulder and hopefully it heals.”

    85. massive

      danvt:
      I agree with your basic premise.I just think that if TH2 is in the rotation and finishing at that level or even close it’s a gigantic win.

      I agree. Danny Green was used in a system that maximized his talent without sacrificing those of players around him. That’s exactly what the Knicks need to do with TH2 and everyone else on the team that can hit an open 3 pointer.

    86. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen:
      @ruru

      Yeah, but those two still led Boston two 2 playoff wins over NY, and I’d say that Stoudemire has far more a chance after two dead seasons in a row, but I agree that it would have been a big risk, just a different kind of risk. I understand your point though. Were basically just disagreeing about 1 year.

      except it’s not just this season. Shump, through the next re-set presumably, is a lot better obviously than the Celtics trio.

      Honestly, I think it would only be fair to project Shumpert to be a more valuable player than KG next season.

      Secondly, Brandon Bass, Jeff Green and Avery Bradley had far more to do with Boston beating NY twice than Pierce did. KG was very good defensively, but the signs are there with him.

      There is no doubting that Amar’e's actual on-court performance exceeded Pierce’s last season, one could argue it was comparable to KG’s.

    87. ruruland

      massive: Exactly. I think they’d make KG play Melo so he can pull his shoulder and tear his labrum again.

      I’d just like to take this time out of my day to say that the Knicks’ medical staff sucks and shouldn’t have let Melo’s shoulder heal on its own. Dolan invested $87 million on him to perform at his best, not for us to be practicing holistic medicine on him. I really don’t like how they’re just being all “well let’s put ice on our franchise player’s shoulder and hopefully it heals.”

      From what I understand, inherent risks in the kind of shoulder surgery Melo would need that could fuck his shooting motion.

      That said, pretty incredible he had figured out an adjustment to his form in like two weeks. Looks like had finally figured out the release point in game 6.

      Pacers should not have been able to defend him like they did with all of those open mid-range jumpers — his struggles were contagious imo.

    88. Loathing

      What I think it boils down to is who Grunwald thought he could and couldn’t re-sign. By drafting Junior, they’re more scared of Smith leaving than Prigs/Cope/Martin or anyone else leaving, and also feel that their one MLE and vets’ minimums can replenish anything that can be/would be lost. Just my take.

    89. massive

      ruruland: From what I understand, inherent risks in the kind of shoulder surgery Melo would need that could fuck his shooting motion.

      That said, pretty incredible he had figured out an adjustment to his form in like two weeks. Looks like had finally figured out the release point in game 6.

      Pacers should not have been able to defend him like they did with all of those open mid-range jumpers — his struggles were contagious imo.

      Now that makes everything different. Toney Douglas did have labrum surgery and he clearly wasn’t the same player after. I guess letting it heal on its own is the right decision.

      I think a lot of our struggles came from the Roy Hibbert rules. They let him do as he pleased all playoffs and it took away all half court lay-ups. Our injuries didn’t help us at all, either. I think if we play the Pacers in the playoffs next season (and both teams are healthy), we’ll beat them.

    90. nicos

      ruruland: From what I understand, inherent risks in the kind of shoulder surgery Melo would need that could fuck his shooting motion.

      That said, pretty incredible he had figured out an adjustment to his form in like two weeks. Looks like had finally figured out the release point in game 6.

      Pacers should not have been able to defend him like they did with all of those open mid-range jumpers — his struggles were contagious imo.

      Also, Melo uses his shoulder and off arm to create space as much as anyone in the league. He couldn’t get the separation he normally gets for his mid-range shot. If it’s healing on it’s own (as it seems to be doing) it’s probably worth waiting to better to minimize the amount of scar tissue.

    91. nicos

      And I’m actually really looking forward to the summer league for the first time in awhile- if they can find a decent point guard the entire starting five (?, Shump, THJ, Leslie, and Jordan) should have a legit shot at making the roster. I’ll be interested to see if not being drafted will light a fire under Leslie- I’d agree with whoever mentioned he’ll probably wind up being another Derrick Brown but he does have the chance to better.

    92. er

      nicos:
      And I’m actually really looking forward to the summer league for the first time in awhile- if they can find a decent point guard the entire starting five (?, Shump, THJ, Leslie, and Jordan) should have a legit shot at making the roster.I’ll be interested to see if not being drafted will light a fire under Leslie- I’d agree with whoever mentioned he’ll probably wind up being another Derrick Brown but he does have the chance to better.

      I think derrick brown is his floor. Lesile is far more talented, woody just needs to harness it

    93. Brian Cronin

      I’m looking forward to seeing Chris Smith make the team while JR signs somewhere else. ;)

    94. massive

      Anyone know what the market is like for Jose Calderon? He starts the season at age 32 this year and has won absolutely nothing in this league. What are the chances of our signing him? I would love to have him on our team as the starting 1 with Felton as the 1.5 (I’d honestly rather trade Felton, but we know that won’t happen). I know he can’t guard a soul, but neither can Felton and he’s worlds better offensively. Calderon, Melo, Stat, Chandler, Shump, Prigioni, and Earl would be great offensively. I’m reading that money isn’t the only factor in his decision. He wants to compete.

      If the deal were on the table, would you S&T Felton and Cope to Detroit for Calderon?

    95. jon abbey

      I would do anything to go forward with Rondo and Shumpie at guards, I don’t really see how that’s possible.

      people seem to only be thinking about Danny Green as the guy who broke the 3 point record in the Finals, but he also played some insanely good D on LeBron at the same time, especially in transition. not a lot of guys as good on both ends as he and Leonard currently, regardless of teammates/system.

    96. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I don’t get the disrespect Danny Green is getting. Sure, he is lucky to be in a good system, but come on, the dude has been really good in the NBA. He’s nowhere near a typical late first round pick. So if you want to say that a player, if he’s lucky, will become like Danny Green, I get that. But it seems like Danny Green is being tossed out there as, like, a floor for some of these guys when he is almost certainly the ceiling for them instead. Like Danny Green is likely THJ’s ceiling, not his floor.

    97. Brian Cronin

      I would do anything to go forward with Rondo and Shumpie at guards, I don’t really see how that’s possible.

      How could the Knicks possibly get Rondo without including Shump? And if it comes to including Shump, I’d just as soon keep Shump. Rondo is definitely better, but with the current Knick offense, I think Shump might actually fit in better. Do we really want an offense where Melo won’t have the ball in his hands most of the game? And if Melo has the ball in his hands most of the game, that’s not maximizing Rondo’s skills. If the Knicks ever make a big move for a point, it has to be a point who can run the offense when Melo is out but can also then nail the open three when Melo is in there. That’s not Rondo (okay, it is Rondo from one very specific spot on the court, but that’s it).

    98. Brian Cronin

      Earlier tonight, JR tweeted

      It was fun while it lasted…

      Then followed up with…

      What y’all talking bout? I’m talking bout the talk the cab driver an I just had! #FunnyDude

      I’d like to believe that that is actually a very good sign that he is going to re-up with the Knicks, because no one would be that big of a dick, right? Right? Tell me right!

    99. massive

      Danny Green has been really good in the NBA because he has been spoonfed most of his looks on offense. On defense, nobody can take away his ability there. The guy is a really good defender. I don’t remember his playing defense on LeBron, but nonetheless the guy is a plus defender. But you cannot deny that the Heat took him out of the game when they closed out and forced him to create his own offense. He was downright terrible once the Heat gave him defensive attention. Danny Green is one of the best utility players in the league, but he’s just that. A utility player.

    100. jon abbey

      I would take that JR thing more as something premature that his agent or someone told him to pull quickly, combined with ruru seeming to think he is likely gone, he probably is.

      your post answering mine about Rondo/Shumpert didn’t disagree with anything I said, I was very careful of my wording.

      but a healthy Rondo/Melo/a Chandler back to at least 2011-2012 form could make a nice run, though, not sure my man Shump will ever get there. Rondo put up a 44/10/8 game against Miami in the playoffs last year, he gets better the bigger the game.

    101. jon abbey

      massive:
      Danny Green has been really good in the NBA because he has been spoonfed most of his looks on offense. On defense, nobody can take away his ability there. The guy is a really good defender. I don’t remember his playing defense on LeBron, but nonetheless the guy is a plus defender. But you cannot deny that the Heat took him out of the game when they closed out and forced him to create his own offense. He was downright terrible once the Heat gave him defensive attention. Danny Green is one of the best utility players in the league, but he’s just that. A utility player.

      so he was only unstoppable for the first five games of the Finals? not many guys could do anything close to what he did, even as the fifth option on their team. not too many guys could shoot that well in an empty gym even, let alone that stage against that defense.

    102. Brian Cronin

      would take that JR thing more as something premature that his agent or someone told him to pull quickly, combined with ruru seeming to think he is likely gone, he probably is.

      Yeah, I think that that theory makes sense, because it means he wasn’t trying to be a dick. I’d hate to lose JR. I was really worried about it for awhile because I figured with his hot streak, someone was bound to offer $10 million and how could he possibly turn that down? And then he sucked during the playoffs so I was hopeful that no offer would be so much bigger that he would turn down $5 million from the Knicks. Man, I never blame players for taking the most money, but after all of his talk about loyalty trumping money, the money better be crazy big for JR to leave. Let’s hope that it is not crazy big and he returns!

      And yeah, as for the Rondo thing, I see what you’re saying now. You know that they couldn’t get Rondo without giving up Shump. Gotcha. Agreed. By the way, can you imagine a Boston backcourt of Shump and Bradley? The opposing team would never get the ball past midcourt!

    103. Brian Cronin

      If Danny Green is a utility player, then fine, whatever, Green is a utility player. But Green as a utility player now is almost certainly a better player than the most likely scenario for pretty much every player who was drafted outside the lottery this year.

    104. er

      yellowboy90:
      I see Hardaway growing into a Wesley Matthews type player.

      good comparison…..btw harping on the earlier convo about improving shooting once you get into the league. Mathews is a great example of this

    105. nicos

      Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, I don’t get the disrespect Danny Green is getting. Sure, he is lucky to be in a good system, but come on, the dude has been really good in the NBA. He’s nowhere near a typical late first round pick. So if you want to say that a player, if he’s lucky, will become like Danny Green, I get that. But it seems like Danny Green is being tossed out there as, like, a floor for some of these guys when he is almost certainly the ceiling for them instead. Like Danny Green is likely THJ’s ceiling, not his floor.

      It depends on how you define ceiling. if THJ absolutely maxes out his potential he’s Danny Green

    106. yellowboy90

      I could see a dream scenario with Portland/Boston/NY. I think Portland is the only team desperate enough to give full compensation(or perhaps over pay) for Tyson. If they are so desperate for a center to give up a pick next year and a few young assets for Tyson the Knicks could send them to the Cs.

      That’s the only way I could see a trade working without giving up Shump.

    107. yellowboy90

      er: good comparison…..btw harping on the earlier convo about improving shooting once you get into the league. Mathews is a great example of this

      i know right he went from undrafted to making 6 mill. Hopefully Leslie can turn it around too. :)

    108. Brian Cronin

      It depends on how you define ceiling. if THJ absolutely maxes out his potential he’s Danny Green

      Yes, that’s what I would consider ceiling. How else would you define ceiling besides the max potential of a player?

    109. Brian Cronin

      I see Hardaway growing into a Wesley Matthews type player.

      Agreed, but that’s the key right there. Wesley Matthews is the dream scenario for THJ. THJ being a player like Wes Matthews is a reasonable hope. THJ being a player as good as Wes Matthews is unlikely. Wes Matthews is really good. American late first rounders, second rounders and undrafted players turning out to be Wes Matthews are rarities. The somewhat more likely scenarios for success are short points and short power forwards. We seem to see one of them every year succeed after getting drafted late (like a Draymond Green). But not guys like Wes Matthews and Danny Green. They obviously happen (Chandler Parsons is another good example), but they’re the exceptions to the rule. Careers like Andy Rautins and Mardy Collins are the rule.

    110. nicos

      Oops cut off- if he reaches his absolute max potential he’s Danny Green but with the ability to put the ball on the floor. The question is how likely is THJ to reach that ceiling- most guys don’t completely maximize their potential especially guys who’ve had real consistency issues in college. Saying THJ has a chance to be better than a very good utility guy doesn’t seem outrageous nor really a knock on Danny Green at all and I think everyone here would be thrilled and probably more than a little surprised if THJ turns out to be as good as Green. The fact that people are being compared to Green at all is a sign of respect for him.

    111. nicos

      I guess I meant you can define ceiling as either what happens if absolutely everything breaks right or what’s the most likely best outcome. If absolutely everything breaks right for THJ, he’s the JR of March/April with none of the headaches but that’s really unlikely. A more reasonable ceiling would be Danny Green but there’s no guarantee he gets there either, in fact as I said most of us would consider that a really positive outcome and a big success for a guy picked where he was in draft.

    112. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin: Agreed, but that’s the key right there. Wesley Matthews is the dream scenario for THJ. THJ being a player like Wes Matthews is a reasonable hope. THJ being a player as good as Wes Matthews is unlikely. Wes Matthews is really good. American late first rounders, second rounders and undrafted players turning out to be Wes Matthews are rarities. The somewhat more likely scenarios for success are short points and short power forwards. We seem to see one of them every year succeed after getting drafted late (like a Draymond Green).

      Well I think it is too early to tell on the 2012 class. You never know you might see some players step up in their second year like Vucevic or Harris did. I think it is usually more than one players though. Like Butler and Parsons. Even Pondexter was picked up late and Stephenson and Fields became starters. You just never know. I myself did not expect a starter. I just hope the player at 24 could become a top 8 guy.

    113. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, fair enough. I think “rotation player” is a reasonable goal for a #24 pick. And then you just hope that the player outstrips that.

    114. Brian Cronin

      But really, overall, it is crazy how little we know about next year’s squad. JR is huge. If he stays, then great, they’re basically on par with last year and could outdo last season if they get better luck with injuries and a good use of the mini-MLE. If JR is gone….well, then that is not good.

    115. massive

      In my amateur opinion, he wasn’t as unstoppable as much as it was the Spurs gamelan that the Heat couldn’t stop. Gary Neal also stopped being effective once the Heat decided to put the clamps on and stop allowing so many open 3s. The Heat normally play an over aggressive defense to force teams into turning over the ball, except that approach kept getting them burned against San Antonio. They played a more conservative defense that valued a lower eFG instead of turnovers. It’s the same reason we beat the Heat 3 times this season. Their style of defense leaves them vulnerable to ball movement teams with 3 point shooters. It’s just that those teams are few and far between in this league, so the Heat get away with it often. That, and they employ LeBron James.

      jon abbey: so he was only unstoppable for the first five games of the Finals? not many guys could do anything close to what he did, even as the fifth option on their team. not too many guys could shoot that well in an empty gym even, let alone that stage against that defense.

    116. Juany8

      Haven’t posted here much lately, but I remember the knock on Shump being that he had a poor TS% in part because of a poor shot selection and role, and that his nice shooting form was irrelevant… and this was all 7 months ago, before he came back from his surgery, not at the draft. Wes Matthews was mentioned here recently, and he also couldn’t shoot, dude was undrafted coming into the NBA. Let’s not forget that Danny Green wasn’t exactly shooting lights out before joining the Spurs either, people seem to ignore that the Spurs specifically work with their players to improve their 3 point shot (Leonard fell because he supposedly couldn’t shoot, and who can forget Bruce Bowen shooting better from the corner 3 than from the free throw line)

      Athletic wings with good character tend to improve their shooting and fundamentals when put in a good situation. That’s why smart teams keep picking up these players and molding them to fit their situation, not picking up college stars who are stubbornly going to play a certain way. I’m giving Grunwald and the staff the benefit of the doubt since they’ve done quite well with their pickups recently, and it’s not like you had a bunch of awesome options at the 24th pick. You pick the guy you think has the best chance of fitting in and working hard to improve, and who has good mechanics and partly needs polish on his mechanics and decision making.

      Let’s also not ignore that the Spurs picked James Anderson in the first round recently, and signed Richard Jefferson to a big contract. With all those second round picks playing on the team, people seem to ignore that the Spurs needed to trade George Hill to get anything of value in the first round over the past several years.

    117. Juany8

      As far as Danny Green goes, he’s Steve Novak with above average defense and some ability to move the ball when someone closes hard on him. That makes him a really nice player, but there’s a wing in the draft that can give you 80% of what Green gives you every year. He had a hot shooting stretch in the Finals, but then Trevor Ariza shot 50% from 3 for the entire playoffs when the Lakers won in 2009. Battier shot like a million percent in the Finals last year. Notice how these players tend to stand out on the perimeter while they watch their more talented teammates make their defender forget about a scorching 3 point shooter to go help out on D. It’s not even a Ray Allen situation where he’s actually running around off screens to get a designated look. They just stand in the open spaces left by the defense. It’s a valuable skill, but not particularly rare unless paired with good D and smart passing. Shump is showing signs of being an awesome version of this 3 and D type player.

    118. yellowboy90

      wow looking at salaries on Hoopshype and it has bogans down for 5 mill next year. If that’s true I think he is the biggest winner of that trade.

      Also, I’d imagine the best way to get Rondo if he is on the block would be to take on Wallace contract too.

    119. max fisher-cohen

      If Smith leaves, I think it will be because management didn’t want to give him a four year deal and clutter their 2015 cap space, not because Smith wasn’t willing to take that full early bird contract. I doubt Smith is getting offers of more than maybe 4 years, $24-28m, which is more than he’d make on NY, but not so much more that his apparent affection for the coach and location wouldn’t override things. But if NY’s only offering him a 2 year, $10m deal, at the end of which he will be about to turn 30, I could see that as an offer he’d have a hard time accepting.

      Alternatively, I wouldn’t be surprised if JR’s terrible playoff run has provoked an overreaction from the power players in the organization and they’ve just decided it’s best to part ways. After all, this team has acted emotionally in the past.

      Or maybe Smith is just ready to move on…

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