Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, April 21, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 20 2012)

  • [New York Times] Rockets Gaining Lin’s Skills and International Fan Base (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 05:10:06 GMT)
    If fans in Houston are not quite swept up in Linsanity the way New Yorkers were, at least the Rockets know that Jeremy Lin could give them continued resonance in the vast basketball markets in Asia.

  • [New York Times] Felton Hopes for Fresh Start With Knicks (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 05:09:08 GMT)
    Raymond Felton, who struggled last season playing for Portland, has wanted to return to the Knicks ever since he was traded to Denver in the deal for Carmelo Anthony.

  • [New York Times] On Basketball: Dolan Breaks Faith With Knicks Fans Again (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 01:54:05 GMT)
    James L. Dolan, the Madison Square Garden chairman, has been unwilling to do what he continually asks of Knicks fans: keep the faith and invest in the potential for success.

  • [New York Times] Former N.B.A. Star Rodman Meets Estranged Father (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:47:07 GMT)
    The former N.B.A. star Dennis Rodman met his estranged father after 42 years of separation, following an exhibition game in Manila.

  • [New York Times] Brook Lopez and Nets Are Happy With Each Other, for Now (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 00:09:00 GMT)
    The Nets held a nice-that-you’re-still-around news conference for the 7-footer Brook Lopez, who had been dangled as a piece in the Dwight Howard trade talks.

  • [New York Times] Jeremy Lin Lands in Houston (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:19:00 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin and his new Rockets teammate Chandler Parsons went out to dinner the night before Lin’s introductory news conference in Houston.

  • [New York Times] Jeremy Lin Lands in Houston (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 04:28:31 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin figured he’d be having this kind of news conference in New York.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Landry Fields Gives a Wistful Look Back (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:37:11 GMT)
    Landry Fields signed a contract with a new team but says he enjoyed his time in New York. Sound familiar?

  • [New York Daily News] Rockets officially welcome Linsanity to Houston (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:58:15 GMT)
    Houston’s Lin Dynasty launched with a crowded welcoming press conference on the Rockets’ practice court Thursday afternoon.

  • [New York Daily News] At Yao’s place, Linsanity already on menu (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:50:13 GMT)
    Less than two days after Lin’s Rocket relaunch became official, Houston fans and business owners spent their Thursday afternoon dreaming of an electric basketball season.

  • [New York Daily News] Raissman: Garden boss bucks system on Lin cash (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:40:06 GMT)
    After analyzing the rocky spin attached to Jeremy Lin’s departure from the Knickerbockers, and sifting it into sand, a couple of stunning conclusions can be drawn.

  • [New York Post] Knicks top Nets (barely) in Post poll (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 04:26:14 -0500)
    The Yankees hate the Mets, the Mets hate the Yankees and everybody in New York hates Boston. Giants and Jets supporters have been at each other’s throats for years â?? while hating New England, of course. Now there is a new, legitimate rivalry not for area but city bragging rights…

  • [New York Post] Felton: I’m better than Jeremy (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 00:19:33 -0500)
    Raymond Felton respects what Jeremy Lin did playing point guard for the Knicks last season. Felton just thinks he’s the better man for the job.
    “I am a competitor. I am a point guard just like he is, so do I think I am better? Of course, I am…

  • [New York Post] Lin plays nice in Houston (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:24:04 -0500)
    It wasn’t exactly the type of press conference that will live in Linfamy.
    Either in New York or in Houston.
    Jeremy Lin met the media in his newest adopted hometown yesterday, and if the point guard truly didn’t want to leave the Knicks, as he told Sports Illustrated…

  • [New York Post] Team concept lost on NBA experts (Fri, 20 Jul 2012 01:48:26 -0500)
    As if to prove the Garden’s Jim Dolan/Cablevision Era is one of wonder and blunder â?? using $100 bills to light exploding cigars â?? Monday, with Jeremy Lin just about gone, Dolan’s MSG Network aired this year’s Leap Day Cavs-Knicks game from Dolan’s Garden.
    On a strange…

  • 127 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 20 2012)

    1. Brian Cronin

      Great Times article on Dolan. It is hilarious to raise ticket prices by 50% and then not sign a guy over money. Ah well, his money, he certainly can do what he wants with it, even if it hurts the Knicks. It is not like people won’t go to Knicks games. So long as they’re good enough to make the playoffs, they’ll still sell tickets.

    2. Brian Cronin

      Hopefully Pietrus becomes available for the vet minimum. The Knicks really need a 2. Pietrus apparently refuses to sign for the vet minimum, insisting that he has a bigger offer waiting overseas if no one ponies up the dough. Annoying! He’d be perfect.

    3. Brian Cronin

      Some major officiating news for next season. Instant replay is now available on all flagrant foul calls! Plus, Officials now can use video replay in the final two minutes of overtime to decide whether a defender was in or out of the restricted area around the basket on charge and blocking fouls. Replay also can be used for goaltending calls in the late stages of games as well.

      Do they seriously mean the last two minutes of just overtime? Bizarre.

      What do you all think about selling ad space on jerseys? What I don’t get is the idea that the ad will also be on retail versions of the jerseys. Seriously?

    4. Brian Cronin

      Thanks. I was figuring it had to be a typo (one that got repeated throughout ESPN’s article on the topic somehow) but I wasn’t sure.

      And yeah, the patch thing will definitely be an interesting can of worms.

    5. thenamestsam

      I think people are making too big a deal of the patch thing. Most of the stadiums are already sponsored, you’re barraged by advertisements throughout the game whether you’re in the stadium or watching on TV, and the Knicks jersey already has an Addidas logo on it. Why should we see adding a JPMorgan logo to go along with it as some kind of revolution? After two weeks no one will even remember what the old patch-less jerseys looked like.

    6. Brian Cronin

      I don’t mind it for the players. What gets me is that it will be on the replica jerseys people buy. I get advertising on a player, but people buying a jersey also have to advertise for JP Morgan?

    7. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin:
      I don’t mind it for the players. What gets me is that it will be on the replica jerseys people buy. I get advertising on a player, but people buying a jersey also have to advertise for JP Morgan?

      You currently have to advertise for Adidas. Why is that different?

    8. mokers

      Brian Cronin:
      I don’t mind it for the players. What gets me is that it will be on the replica jerseys people buy. I get advertising on a player, but people buying a jersey also have to advertise for JP Morgan?

      Because Jersey sponsors will often change. If you by a JP Morgan Jersey in 2012, people will know you are not a true fan when Verizon sponsors in 2015 and you still have the JP Morgan patch on your jersey.

    9. CapB

      thenamestsam: You currently have to advertise for Adidas. Why is that different?

      This is a silly comment. I willingly choose to buy addidas products. I don’t want to advertise for other companies just so I can wear a Knicks jersey.

    10. jon abbey

      no one should be buying Knicks jerseys anyway, why do we keep losing sight of the big picture?

    11. boredNsleepy

      Brian Cronin:
      I don’t mind it for the players. What gets me is that it will be on the replica jerseys people buy. I get advertising on a player, but people buying a jersey also have to advertise for JP Morgan?

      It happened with all European soccer team.

    12. thenamestsam

      CapB: This is a silly comment.I willingly choose to buy addidas products.I don’t want to advertise for other companies just so I can wear a Knicks jersey.

      Before it was an adidas product. Now think of it as an Adidas and JPMorgan product. You can still choose to willingly buy it or not. Presumably you bought the jersey because of your allegiance to the Knicks (although I’m with Abbey, no one should give any money to those clowns), not because of your allegiance to Adidas. So you were already being forced into advertising for one company. Why is two so much worse? What if Adidas is the one who buys the ad space instead of JPMorgan and now there’s just a larger Adidas patch. Are you still outraged?

    13. boredNsleepy

      How about KFC with the grandpa on Knicks logo. How would you like that?

      thenamestsam: Before it was an adidas product. Now think of it as an Adidas and JPMorgan product. You can still choose to willingly buy it or not. Presumably you bought the jersey because of your allegiance to the Knicks (although I’m with Abbey, no one should give any money to those clowns), not because of your allegiance to Adidas. So you were already being forced into advertising for one company. Why is two so much worse? What if Adidas is the one who buys the ad space instead of JPMorgan and now there’s just a larger Adidas patch. Are you still outraged?

    14. boredNsleepy

      How about KFC grandpa logo on Knicks jersey. How would you like that? Lol. And sponsor logo usually sits right in the middle….

      thenamestsam: Before it was an adidas product. Now think of it as an Adidas and JPMorgan product. You can still choose to willingly buy it or not. Presumably you bought the jersey because of your allegiance to the Knicks (although I’m with Abbey, no one should give any money to those clowns), not because of your allegiance to Adidas. So you were already being forced into advertising for one company. Why is two so much worse? What if Adidas is the one who buys the ad space instead of JPMorgan and now there’s just a larger Adidas patch. Are you still outraged?

    15. Count de Pennies

      jon abbey:
      no one should be buying Knicks jerseys anyway, why do we keep losing sight of the big picture?

      BINGO!

      Give that man a cigar!

    16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Brian Cronin:
      I don’t mind it for the players. What gets me is that it will be on the replica jerseys people buy. I get advertising on a player, but people buying a jersey also have to advertise for JP Morgan?

      Even if there were no Adidas or Nike symbol, you’d still be advertising a billion-dollar industry by wearing a professional sport team’s logo. The upsetting thing is that the ad pandemic keeps building steam. Sooner than later the NBA will replace its teams’ logos with corporate logos. I’m reminded of a great scene in Infinite Jest where the football players — the Eagles, I think — parachute into the stadium in ad-riddled bird costumes as a pre-game introduction sequence. Wallace may be dead, but his vision seems more and more prescient everyday.

    17. MKinLA

      European soccer clubs have had ads on their jerseys forever without any ill effects. They do it b/c soccer has so few breaks for ads.

      I think the only reason it hasn’t been done in major American sports up to this point is that our sports tend to have zillions of timeouts.

      But you can’t expect revenue maximizing entities to forgo obvious revenue opportunities forever.

    18. Z

      MKinLA:

      I think the only reason it hasn’t been done in major American sports up to this point is that our sports tend to have zillions of timeouts.

      If the NBA does away with timeouts, I might be inclined to watch a game this season.

    19. thenamestsam

      Z: If the NBA does away with timeouts, I might be inclined to watch a game this season.

      That would be an amazing tradeoff. They can rename the team the New York JPMorgans for all I care if every dollar earned went towards eliminating commercial breaks.

    20. Robtachi

      I was in Modell’s yesterday for about 40 minutes hemming and hawing over some merchandise. Man, the Brooklyn Nets’ warmup jackets look really slick in the black and white.

      Just couldn’t do it…

    21. iserp

      MKinLA: European soccer clubs have had ads on their jerseys forever without any ill effects. They do it b/c soccer has so few breaks for ads.

      i HATE HATE HATE them; but i guess i was used that my club (FC Barcelona) didn’t have ads until very recently.

      I considered buying some jerseys of other (less known) clubs this year, because they lost their advertising and were good looking… but man, their price is really steep. I think i’ll stick with cheap china imitations.

    22. JK47

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Even if there were no Adidas or Nike symbol, you’d still be advertising a billion-dollar industry by wearing a professional sport team’s logo. The upsetting thing is that the ad pandemic keeps building steam. Sooner than later the NBA will replace its teams’ logos with corporate logos. I’m reminded of a great scene in Infinite Jest where the football players — the Eagles, I think — parachute into the stadium in ad-riddled bird costumes as a pre-game introduction sequence. Wallace may be dead, but his vision seems more and more prescient everyday.

      Jowles, you’re an Infinite Jest/DFW fan? Very cool. I have a signed first edition of IJ– one of my most prized possessions.

    23. Z

      thenamestsam: That would be an amazing tradeoff. They can rename the team the New York JPMorgans for all I care if every dollar earned went towards eliminating commercial breaks.

      Puts the Knick City Dancers and the guy with the T-Shirt cannon out of work too…

    24. formido

      Some of the Philippine Basketball Association team names are like that. Maybe they all are, I don’t know, I’m not Filipino. My favorite is the perennial powerhouse Talk ‘N Text Tropang Texters.

      1 Air21 Express
      2 Alaska Aces
      3 Barako Bull Energy
      4 Barangay Ginebra Kings
      5 B-Meg Llamados
      6 Meralco Bolts
      7 Petron Blaze Boosters
      8 Powerade Tigers
      9 Rain or Shine Elasto Painters
      10 Talk ‘N Text Tropang Texters

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sooner than later the NBA will replace its teams’ logos with corporate logos

    25. formido

      Intellectually serious people understand that fundamental differences between their situations make it not an interesting comparison in the slightest.

      Z-man: Interesting comparison with Lin’s situation…

    26. New Guy

      Someone yesterday compared Lin to Eli and it prompted a discussion among my friends about it. Check this from an email I wrote. Would be curious if anyone else agrees:

      Pedigree is where the analogy goes awry. But IMO every who hates Lin now hated Eli then. Focused on the bad parts of his game that would go away with practice and minimized the moments where there was obviously a glimmer of greatness that had the potential to be realized. After his first season, in which he (Eli) did some incredible things that made it clear he could be special, all anyone ever harped on was the playoff game against Carolina (like the Miami game) and the turnovers. People killed them on turnovers, but they were the good kind of turnovers, i.e. the ones that come from aggressively pushing the boundaries of your game to discover how far out you can set your limits. They both got laughed at a lot bc they don’t look the part. One is Asian, the other is Peyton’s kid brother. They’re both doofuses. Peers relished putting them down. His teammates didn’t respect Eli at first. Carmelo is Tiki. People stupidly thought we were better off trying to make the playoffs with Warner than build long term and play Eli, just like now they think getting a retread like Felton can somehow replace the possibility that Lin was the real deal. Ernie Accorsi overpaid for Eli based on less evidence than we have on Lin. You know what thin slicing is? It’s what separates great evaluators from bozos. Anyone can figure out how good a player is with 4 years worth of data from playing in the league. Prior to being crowned king of NY, I told you Eli would get better. I always brought up the Denver game in his second year, two TD drives in a row to win the game. That was thin-slicing. If he had THAT in him, he could be great. You coach the rest into him. But THAT ability to rise to the occassion is special and few people have it. Lin vs Lakers. Lin’s shot in Toronto. Lin’s killer…

    27. New Guy

      FYI, when I said Eli did some incredible things in his first season I meant first full season, i.e. second season.

    28. chrisk06811

      Ray Felton said today that he thinks he is better than Lin. Good job Ray!!! That’s exactly what we need….a PG ready to prove himself.

      We need to support Ray and love Ray. Show him he’s our guy. Cheer him on. Share your fries with him. Wait, don’t share your fries with him. Get behind him. Buy his jersey. No, don’t do that either.

      Just, give the guy a break. he’s our PG. and don’t get in the car w/ J Kidd.

    29. New Guy

      Oops, got cut off. The rest of it:

      killer 3′s in Dirk’s mug. There’s your thin slice of greatness. That’s enough to take the risk. Now, would we ever have been able to develop him with Melo, Woodson, and Dolan around the way Coughlin and the Giants developed Eli? I highly doubt it. Eli became Eli only because he had a strong organization behind him. Alas, that’s where their paths diverge.

    30. Z-man

      formido: Intellectually serious people understand that fundamental differences between their situations make it not an interesting comparison in the slightest.

      So do starstruck Lin apologists.

    31. exel

      New Guy:
      Oops, got cut off.The rest of it:

      killer 3?s in Dirk’s mug.There’s your thin slice of greatness.That’s enough to take the risk.Now, would we ever have been able to develop him with Melo, Woodson, and Dolan around the way Coughlin and the Giants developed Eli?I highly doubt it.Eli became Eli only because he had a strong organization behind him. Alas, that’s where their paths diverge.

      Lin definitely had that killer attitude in the 4th. Quite impressive for a guy who never had any of that experience in the NBA. Two games stuck out for me especially in that regards and that was the the Woodson Philadelphia game and the second game in the back-to-back with Indiana. In the Philadephia game, after shooting like 1-10 in the first 3 quarters, Lin went beserk in the 4th, scoring 16 of the Knicks 23 points in the 4th. In the Indiana game, the score was close in the 4th quarter and Lin scored like 8-9 points straight to blow it open.

    32. thenamestsam

      New Guy: Very interesting stuff and well written. I had also had the Eli-Lin comparison in my mind, specifically after reading something Jon@Knicksfan.net posted to his twitter account. What he wrote was:

      “Lin isn’t solid. He has glaring weaknesses in his game and if you look at him in a vacuum it’s easy to see why people doubty him. I think this is how the Knicks looked at him, especially Mike Woodson, and how many others around basketball see him too. But he is spectacular, and I mean that in the sense that he has the ability to completely take over games that few players have.”

      The contrast between the solid and the spectacular reminded me very much of Eli. He’s not solid (and this was particularly true early in his career). He always feels like he’s about to make a big mistake and his weaknesses are often glaring. But he has been spectacular from the very beginning, capable of doing things that only a few other NFL QBs can do.

      I think you should always gamble on players who are capable of the spectacular, because that’s the part you can’t teach. I can’t think of many players who entered the NBA who didn’t have the spectacular in them who developed it over time. You’re either capable of it or you aren’t. But you can take a spectacular guy and work on making him more solid. It’s what the Giants did with Eli, and it’s what the Knicks decided not to try to do with Lin.

    33. Count Zero

      chrisk06811:
      Ray Felton said today that he thinks he is better than Lin.Good job Ray!!!That’s exactly what we need….a PG ready to prove himself.

      We need to support Ray and love Ray.Show him he’s our guy.Cheer him on.Share your fries with him.Wait, don’t share your fries with him.Get behind him. Buy his jersey.No, don’t do that either.

      Just, give the guy a break. he’s our PG.and don’t get in the car w/ J Kidd.

      Yeah I love the way media headlines tried to spin the story into some kind of a dis on Lin. I have zero problem with any player on any of the teams I root for who says something like this:

      “I am a competitor,” Felton said. “I am a point guard just like he is, so do I think I am better? Of course, I am going to say that. I think I am better than any point guard. That’s the way I am supposed to think.”

      I’m sure Jeremy Lin was saying the same thing about himself while he was scrambling for a roster spot a year ago.

    34. 2FOR18

      New Guy:
      Oops, got cut off.The rest of it:

      killer 3?s in Dirk’s mug.There’s your thin slice of greatness.That’s enough to take the risk.Now, would we ever have been able to develop him with Melo, Woodson, and Dolan around the way Coughlin and the Giants developed Eli?I highly doubt it.Eli became Eli only because he had a strong organization behind him. Alas, that’s where their paths diverge.

      I do like you bringing up thin slicing regarding Lin. That’s pretty much what his detractors are doing – harping on one or 2 negatives and ignoring the positives.

    35. 2FOR18

      Count Zero: Yeah I love the way media headlines tried to spin the story into some kind of a dis on Lin. I have zero problem with any player on any of the teams I root for who says something like this:

      “I am a competitor,” Felton said. “I am a point guard just like he is, so do I think I am better? Of course, I am going to say that. I think I am better than any point guard. That’s the way I am supposed to think.”

      I’m sure Jeremy Lin was saying the same thing about himself while he was scrambling for a roster spot a year ago.

      Yeah, nothing wrong with what Felton said, but I can’t be the only one who had Marbury flashbacks. His career went into the toilet almost immediately after declaring himself the best PG in the league.

    36. mokers

      I think people are looking way too much at the stock price of MSG. While MSG may be underperforming the DOW and NASDAQ over the last month, it is out performing both indexes if you look at 6 month, 1 year and out farther. MSG stock has been doing pretty well since it was founded in 2010. It may help to think that Dolan is weeping about the stock price over the last few weeks, but over the long term, I don’t think Dolan is worried.

    37. sourdoughboy

      Someone raised the point about ignoring J-Lin’s rookie stats yesterday. I don’t think we should, because they are NBA data points.

      I haven’t seen anyone do this yet–surprisingly–but I looked for the best comp I could find for J-Lin using basketball-reference. I cheated a little and used J-Lin’s first two season totals combined as his rookie season. So I looked for guards, between 6-0 and 6-4, who played at least 50 games in their rookie season, were between 22-23, and had a PER > 17. The best comp, looking at usage rate, rebounds, steals, assist rate is…

      ROD STRICKLAND! Another Knick point guard that we let go (too soon?).

      Strickland (rookie): 1358 minutes / 18.0 PER/ .539 TS% / 31.8% AST / 3.3% STL / 18.1% TO / .131 WS/48

      Lin (career): 1225 minutes / 18.7 PER / .538 TS% / 36.2% AST / 3.7% STL / 20.9% TO / .121 WS/48

      Maybe someone can find a better comp (based solely on NBA stats). (I spent all of five minutes on this.)

    38. diehardknickerbocker

      chrisk06811:
      Ray Felton said today that he thinks he is better than Lin.Good job Ray!!!That’s exactly what we need….a PG ready to prove himself.

      We need to support Ray and love Ray.Show him he’s our guy.Cheer him on.Share your fries with him.Wait, don’t share your fries with him.Get behind him. Buy his jersey.No, don’t do that either.

      Just, give the guy a break. he’s our PG.and don’t get in the car w/ J Kidd.

      Glad he turnt into fatboy(Felton) last year made it easier to get him back. Now he can comeback this year in shape n take us deep in the playoffs . Lin wasn’t worth the money for the little month he gave us, now that he’s not coming back to the knicks don’t think he’ll succeed like he would if he was in nyc.

    39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      JK47: Jowles, you’re an Infinite Jest/DFW fan?Very cool.I have a signed first edition of IJ– one of my most prized possessions.

      Wow. Did you receive the signing yourself? I hadn’t read him when he died, and now I’ve presented on him at a grad conference. Feels a little weird talking about him in an academic setting (since he calls academics, what, “tenure jockeys?”) but, yeah, he deserves the words. And when it comes to sports and commercialization (among other things), he’s the king.

    40. Frank O.

      Now that the team is largely set, it’s kind of hard to give a shit, I confess.
      And all the rehashing of the Lin situation has made things oddly less entertaining on knickerblogger.
      Dolan is an ass.
      Lin is gone
      Landry is gone.
      We have a new point guard; same as the old point guard. A tough, but modest talent.
      We have another new point guard, who celebrated his Knicks signing by destroying his vehicle while drunk. And he’s supposed to be the mature one in the locker room.
      And in the past two years we traded away some very cool young players, along with a lot of draft picks that we might have used to sign some very cool young talent.
      I think Amare and Tyson are great guys. Melo, for me, is still hard to like. I also like Camby, if he manages to stay healthy, which isn’t likely given he never has and now he’s nearly 40.
      We’re probably good enough to get between 50 and 55 wins, but we have no real chance against the Heat. The Knicks’ future is now and now isn’t good enough to get them to the finals.
      And did I say Dolan is an ass?
      So what we have is a team that will need to be blown up in three years, unless, once again, we desperately try to attract a talent like Chris Paul, who will be older, probably not as good, and very, very expensive to lead of team of aging players.
      *sigh*
      It was a lot of fun watching Oklahoma and Denver last year….

    41. ephus

      @46 –

      Here are some reasons to be hopeful for the new season:

      1. Amar’e is likely to perform better than he did last year. If he can hit the elbow jumper again, he could function quite well on the weakside.

      2. Novak will be back, and hopefully with better footwork.

      3. Carmelo Anthony has dropped weight and is playing defense for Team USA. If he does the same for the Knicks (like he did for the Nuggets after the 2008 Olympics), he is a top performer.

      4. Tyson Chandler is healthy. A healthy TC makes up for a multitude of defensive sins on the perimeter.

      5. Even at his advanced age, Jason Kidd is a better passer than any Knick since Doc Rivers.

      6. Marcus Camby is returning. We can all pretend as if the McDyess trade never happened.

      7. Kurt Thomas is returning. We can all learn something about intensity by staring into his eyes.

      8. Iman Shumpert should return in January. My wildly optimistic view is that a healthy Shumpert could be a Sane Spreewell .

      9. Ray Felton is returning, and leaving twenty extra pounds behind in Portland.

      10. There is nothing that J.R. Smith cannot do on the basketball court. Of course, there is nothing that J.R. Smith would not do on the basketball court — so you take the good with the bad.

      11. The Knicks have their 2013 First Round Draft Pick.

      12. Isiah Thomas got fired, but still is not coming back to the Knicks.

      13. The Bulls, the Hawks and the Sixers should all be worse than last year.

      14. The Nets did not get Dwight Howard, and probably never will.

      15. The Celtics have bet their next three years on the health of Kevin Garnett’s knees.

      16. Donald Sterling still owns the Clippers, and might make Chris Paul so mad that he forces a mid-season trade to the Knicks.

      Of course, I would be even more optimistic if the Knicks still had Jeremy Lin and the Heat did not have Lebron James, but I am trying to move from depression to acceptance.

    42. 2FOR18

      I think the Nets will really be interesting.
      Their backcourt is obviously strong with Deron and Johnson, as well as CJ Watson, M Brooks, Bogans and Taylor.
      I’ve been watching clips of Teletovic and reading about him, and while he’s a big guy who can shoot, he’s not a soft player at all, like Barnagni. If they pair him with Reggie Evans, and Lopez with Humphries, they won’t be too bad on the boards with Wallace in there.
      They really need a decent back-up 3, but not sure who else is out there other than Pietrus. There are rumors about Kirilenko possibly opting out of his Euro contract to come here due to the Russian connection.

    43. PrecociousNeophyte

      Jerry Stackhouse has now joined the party and commented on Lin’s contract.

      Can you remember another time when active NBAers criticized another player’s contract?

    44. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Since our new signings are 38 and 40, I’m going to say that we’ll be lucky to pull 50 wins this season. Plus, Carmelo and Amar’e are on the wrong side of 25, and I’m willing to bet that their already middling production suffers further. I’d say 48-34 is a good projection. Chandler will be responsible for many of those wins.

    45. d-mar

      @46 I think Jon Abbey said it best a few threads ago, if getting by the Heat or not is your measure of success or failure, then we should all just give up (sorry if I misquoted you Jon) Let’s just see if we can get to the ECF and take our chances, maybe a key injury or two for the Heat (instead of the Knicks for a change) and we move on.

    46. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Since our new signings are 38 and 40, I’m going to say that we’ll be lucky to pull 50 wins this season. Plus, Carmelo and Amar’e are on the wrong side of 25, and I’m willing to bet that their already middling production suffers further. I’d say 48-34 is a good projection. Chandler will be responsible for many of those wins.

      What do you think of Felton- he ranks pretty well on WoW: even with his horrific last season he still ranks out as an above average starter and if you throw out last year, his two previous years would put him close to top ten. Also- Kidd and Camby both rated really well on WoW last year as well despite their age- even if Kidd’s production dropped 20%, he’d still be more productive than Lin was last year (according to WoW anyway). Same with Camby- even with a huge drop he’d still be better than any of the Knick’s bench players from last season. Given that all three are signed to relatively cheap contracts, I’d think you’d be thrilled at what Grunwald’s done minus letting Fields go.

    47. massive

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Since our new signings are 38 and 40, I’m going to say that we’ll be lucky to pull 50 wins this season. Plus, Carmelo and Amar’e are on the wrong side of 25, and I’m willing to bet that their already middling production suffers further. I’d say 48-34 is a good projection. Chandler will be responsible for many of those wins.

      Your analysis (while heavily combated here) is usually accurate, but WS/48 says Melo has actually improved since being a Knick (.125 in Denver vs. .157 and .160 in New York), plus we’ve added 3 players that WoW likes a lot (in Felton, Kidd, and Camby). Even with all of this taken into consideration, you still believe we’ll win 48?

    48. nicos

      Also, Amar’e was pretty much pitch perfect on Lin during the Knick’s broadcast yesterday- basically said Lin completely turned the team’s season around, earned the contract he got, and he’s sorry to see him leave. That should be the boilerplate response for every Knick going forward. Also mentioned he’ll be working on his footwork with Hakeem in August. While I don’t think he’ll turn into a great back to the basket player at this point, I do think that if he just gets in the habit of establishing better low post position (say getting the ball twelve feet rather than 14 feet from the basket) he’ll have a lot more success- he still can blow by just about anyone, but now the half-step he’s lost is allowing the rotator to get in position to take a charge. If he gets lower position in the post he should be able to beat those rotations. As for his comments about how he’ll improve next season just by using his high basketball IQ, we’ll just let those pass.

    49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      massive:

      KnickerBlogger.Net

      I don’t think WS48 is a good stat at all. Still overvalues “shot creation” and undervalues net possessions.

      I mean, think about how important net possessions are. If every starter on your team grabs one additional OREB, you’re looking at 5, maybe 4 additional shot attempts. And even if you have a tremendously bad offense (Charlotte put up 0.95 PPP last season, worst in the league), that’s an additional 4 or 5 points on your final score on average. And while that won’t transform a team like Charlotte to a winning team, we know that an additional 5 net PPG is the difference between, like, the Knicks and the Heat.

      Now I’m sure ruruland et al. have all sorts of explanations for why offensive rebounds aren’t all that good (spacing, blah blah blah) as the focal point of a gameplan, but I think that if you play by the numbers, you will find yourself closer to the top of the league than the middle. You may have to “reject” WP48 analysis at times (I also agree that you can’t put 5 players on the floor with a combined 50 USG and 70 OREB% and expect the team to be as efficient as they might otherwise be) to construct the whole team, but if you just go with the numbers whenever possible, you’ll do a better job.

      Yes, 48 is my guess. Kidd and Camby were awesome last year, but with old age, the stats plummet VERY quickly. If one of them hits a wall (or has to adjust to a new playstyle, which I highly doubt makes a difference for anyone save rookies, or someone going from the Jax triangle to 7SoL), this team is fucked.

    50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      nicos: What do you think of Felton- he ranks pretty well on WoW: even with his horrific last season he still ranks out as an above average starter and if you throw out last year, his two previous years would put him close to top ten.Also- Kidd and Camby both rated really well on WoW last year as well despite their age- even if Kidd’s production dropped 20%, he’d still be more productive than Lin was last year (according to WoW anyway).Same with Camby- even with a huge drop he’d still be better than any of the Knick’s bench players from last season.Given that all three are signed to relatively cheap contracts, I’d think you’d be thrilled at what Grunwald’s done minus letting Fields go.

      Lin was a no-brainer. You sign for three, and cut him after two unless he’s an All-NBAer; in that case, you do anything you can to get rid of Amar’e's already-shitty contract.

      I like the Kidd and Camby signings, but no player stays that good for that long. As I said above, if one of them hits the Age wall, this team has no chance.

    51. JK47

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Wow. Did you receive the signing yourself? I hadn’t read him when he died, and now I’ve presented on him at a grad conference. Feels a little weird talking about him in an academic setting (since he calls academics, what, “tenure jockeys?”) but, yeah, he deserves the words. And when it comes to sports and commercialization (among other things), he’s the king.

      I got it signed on his book tour of “Brief Interviews With Hideous Men” back in ’99 at Skylight Books in LA. I’ve never been so awe of meeting someone in my whole life; I couldn’t even speak to him. I was so afraid of saying something stupid. “Infinite Jest” blew me away and it’s still my favorite novel of all time. It’s hard to imagine another book ever meaning as much to me as that book did.

      I’m very slowly reading and savoring “The Pale King,” which probably would have been on par to “Infinite Jest” had he lived to finish it. There are some breathtakingly brilliant passages in “The Pale King.” When he died I was depressed for weeks.

    52. PrecociousNeophyte

      In regard to moving salary, in 2014-2015…

      With all that salary coming off the books at the end of the season wouldn’t Melo be the one the Knicks should be hoping to move that season? Based on reputation/star power alone, he should be able to net at least 1 or 2 assets/draft picks right?

      With the age if this team, things could get ugly that season. Even without Lin, the Knicks should be planning to trade Melo and reloading in free agency IMO.

    53. 2FOR18

      Let’s lay off of ruru for awhile since he’s from Colorado. He probably has more important things on his mind.

    54. PrecociousNeophyte

      Of course, Melo will probably opt out after next season and the Knicks will sign him to a max 5 year $100M contract.

    55. JK47

      PrecociousNeophyte:
      Of course, Melo will probably opt out after next season and the Knicks will sign him to a max 5 year $100M contract.

      After he finally, magically happens to have that big career season in his contract walk year.

    56. ephus

      With the major expansion in the salary cap that I expect starting in 2016-17, the Knicks would be wise to load up on max contracts in 2015-16.

    57. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      2FOR18:
      Let’s lay off of ruru for awhile since he’s from Colorado.He probably has more important things on his mind.

      I don’t mean to sound crass, but being from CO has nothing to do with it. I’m sure there are people who live down the street from the place who don’t really care, and there are people in Maine and New Mexico who cried upon hearing the news. Unless he knew the people involved, it’s really no more real to him than someone on the other end of the country.

    58. New Guy

      2FOR18: I do like you bringing up thin slicing regarding Lin.That’s pretty much what his detractors are doing – harping on one or 2 negatives and ignoring the positives.

      That’s not thin slicing, though. Thin slicing is knowing which specific factors to give the most weight to. It existed before Gladwell but he made it popular in Blink.

    59. nicos

      While I understand the league wants to avoid situations like what happened with Ilgauskas, with a guy like Jordan, he may not get an NBA job at all but the Knicks still couldn’t sign him for a year- doesn’t seem fair to Jordan.

    60. 2FOR18

      New Guy: That’s not thin slicing, though.Thin slicing is knowing which specific factors to give the most weight to.It existed before Gladwell but he made it popular in Blink.

      Thanks for the clarification. Been awhile since I read Blink.

    61. Brian Cronin

      While I understand the league wants to avoid situations like what happened with Ilgauskas, with a guy like Jordan, he may not get an NBA job at all but the Knicks still couldn’t sign him for a year- doesn’t seem fair to Jordan.

      Ugh. Yeah, it is ridiculous. Just make it that players dealt during the regular season can’t be re-acquired that season by the team who traded them. That solves the problem basically completely.

    62. Brian Cronin

      Someone on twitter made a good suggestion, make it guaranteed contracts versus non-guaranteed contracts. Players with non-guaranteed contracts should be allowed to return to the team that traded them. Done. Make it happen, NBPA!

    63. Frank O.

      PrecociousNeophyte:
      Jerry Stackhouse has now joined the party and commented on Lin’s contract.

      Can you remember another time when active NBAers criticized another player’s contract?

      I know this might anger some, but I’m just asking:
      Players have always unified in players getting paid whatever the market will bear, but in the case of the Asian American….I found it stunning that Melo would comment on the merits of the contract publicly, that JR would say players will be bitter and then Stackhouse.
      Of course Lin won’t say anything about this. Of course he’ll say he didn’t think Melo had any problems with him. He’s got to play in this league. But it probably made it a lot easier to leave.
      Does anyone else think race was an issue in this commentary among players?

    64. Brian Cronin

      Race plays a role in pretty much everything in the NBA.

      That said, I think players might be more willing to discuss contracts if they were constantly asked about them, ya know? Like if every player in the NBA was asked whether Jeff Green’s contract was fair or not, eventually you’re going to get some people who will say no. This Lin situation is unique. Every NBA player is being asked about it. That’s extremely unusual.

    65. iserp

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Now I’m sure ruruland et al. have all sorts of explanations for why offensive rebounds aren’t all that good

      Well, offensive rebounds main downside is defense. If you commit too much to get the rebound, you make it easier for the other team to get transition points. You have to weigh the advantages / disadvantages of committing to it. And that also depends what kind of team you are fielding (e.g. Are your wings good defenders?)

    66. jon abbey

      iserp: Well, offensive rebounds main downside is defense. If you commit too much to get the rebound, you make it easier for the other team to get transition points. You have to weigh the advantages / disadvantages of committing to it. And that also depends what kind of team you are fielding (e.g. Are your wings good defenders?)

      yep, it’s pretty interesting to note that Boston has had a teamwide philosophy the last couple of years of getting back on D over crashing the offensive boards (they were the worst offensive rebounding team in history this past season), and they’ve obviously had a lot of success following that plan.

    67. Juany8

      All advanced stats out on the internet right now ignore defense. Once you realize that, the best you can do is take them with a MAJOR grain of salt. Basketball is a very intricate and complex sport, defense, offense, and rebounds all affect each other, you can’t just measure them independently of one another. Nor can you measure each possession or rebound independent of the context that created it. None of these stats even adjust for things like strength of schedule (It’s really easy to score on Charlotte, if you just dropped 30 on .650 TS% on them it’s not THAT impressive). It’s ok to use something like WS or WP as the starting point of a discussion, if you’re ending your evaluation at that point you get results like Kevin Love being better than Lebron James and Landry Fields being a top 10 player in 2011 (if Fields was a superstar then everyone has been freaking out about the wrong person being let go!!!!)

      http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced/wins-produced-2011/

    68. sourdoughboy

      Bad form replying to my own post… but does no one else love the Strickland comp as much as I do?

      I think it gives some perspective to the situation, especially because fans who remember Strickland probably aren’t as pissed about letting Lin go as those who don’t. Exciting young slashing guard with some holes in his game (Strickland/Lin) ditched in favor of old vet (Cheeks/Kidd) who fits better with the system.

      To Lin skeptics: Imagine Strickland had burst on the scene in the same way as Lin… Ewing goes down, Strickland (Bronx kid makes good!) starts for first time and leads Knicks on improbable run to salvage the season, etc. etc., a lot of fans would have been really really pissed with the Mo Cheeks trade.

      To Lin fans: Letting Strickland go made some sense because he didn’t fit it with the Ewing-led team. Yes, it’s a dumb move, but are you going to stop being a fan because of Rod Strickland?

    69. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      iserp: Well, offensive rebounds main downside is defense. If you commit too much to get the rebound, you make it easier for the other team to get transition points. You have to weigh the advantages / disadvantages of committing to it. And that also depends what kind of team you are fielding (e.g. Are your wings good defenders?)

      No one ever said that all five players should be crashing the boards at once.

    70. Z

      Brian Cronin:
      Race plays a role in pretty much everything in the NBA.

      That said, I think players might be more willing to discuss contracts if they were constantly asked about them, ya know? Like if every player in the NBA was asked whether Jeff Green’s contract was fair or not, eventually you’re going to get some people who will say no. This Lin situation is unique. Every NBA player is being asked about it. That’s extremely unusual.

      Yeah, except that JR Smith’s comment was unsolicited, wasn’t it? Didn’t he tweet his feelings?

      It does seem that there were two factions in the Knick lockerroom– the fraternity and the “new wave”. The new wave is all but gone now, purged from the system: Lin, Landry, Walker, Harrelson, Jordan… All the guys that came here with something to prove. The guys that came here “proven” still linger on. But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.

      It’s all still so depressing. I hate this team.

    71. JK47

      sourdoughboy:
      Bad form replying to my own post… but does no one else love the Strickland comp as much as I do?

      I think it gives some perspective to the situation, especially because fans who remember Strickland probably aren’t as pissed about letting Lin go as those who don’t. Exciting young slashing guard with some holes in his game (Strickland/Lin) ditched in favor of old vet (Cheeks/Kidd) who fits better with the system.

      To Lin skeptics: Imagine Strickland had burst on the scene in the same way as Lin… Ewing goes down, Strickland (Bronx kid makes good!) starts for first time and leads Knicks on improbable run to salvage the season, etc. etc., a lot of fans would have been really really pissed with the Mo Cheeks trade.

      To Lin fans: Letting Strickland go made some sense because he didn’t fit it with the Ewing-led team. Yes, it’s a dumb move, but are you going to stop being a fan because of Rod Strickland?

      Enough with this “fits with the system” nonsense. Jason Kidd is 78 years old. At some point very soon his body is going to betray him and he is not going to be a viable NBA player. It could be this season, it could be next season, but it is going to happen. He’s not a “better fit for the system,” he’s simply a better fit for the wishful thinking of Knicks fans who want to rationalize the departure of the lottery pick talent that fell into their laps then was allowed to walk away for nothing because he hurt the owner’s feelings.

    72. BigBlueAL

      “But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.”

      I thought the pre-Melo trade team was just as if not more enjoyable to watch. Their 13-1 stretch to me was just as fun if not more fun to watch than the 8-1 Linsanity stretch. But they eventually settled in to what they really were and was 28-26 before the Melo trade.

      The Linsanity lineup wasnt gonna be able to sustain their play for much longer especially when you consider they werent playing that good on offense during that amazing stretch. The 7-1 stretch after Woodson took over was more optimistic to me because everyone was involved and while Lin’s numbers were nowhere near what they were during Linsanity it proved that they could all play together and win.

      Again though for me the 13-1 stretch which included Amar’e and his 30 pt games streak was even more fun because that was the first great long stretch of play by a Knick team in a decade and that stretch included the entire team contributing as well and was the best offense Id ever seen a Knick team play (Felton of course was the PG).

    73. er

      except for lin none of those players were good…..this crap i keep hearing on this site about enjoyable teams is making me cringe.

      i dont give a (bleep) about enjoyable i want to win……the heat are not always enjoyable but they win….before this year the spurs were not enjoyable but they win…..the 90s bulls were far from enjoyable with their grind it out style but they won

      “enjoyable” sounds like such a loser mentality….im tired of people bitching and longing for average players and teams. we finally have the oppurtunity to actully be really good this year and this is all people cry about is “enjoyable”………..its disgusting

      Z: Yeah, except that JR Smith’s comment was unsolicited, wasn’t it? Didn’t he tweet his feelings?

      It does seem that there were two factions in the Knick lockerroom– the fraternity and the “new wave”. The new wave is all but gone now, purged from the system: Lin, Landry, Walker, Harrelson, Jordan… All the guys that came here with something to prove. The guys that came here “proven” still linger on. But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.

      It’s all still so depressing. I hate this team.

    74. JK47

      To me “good” and “enjoyable” go hand in hand. This team would have been a lot more “good” thus “enjoyable” with a point guard who can actually break down a defender and score at an efficient rate rather than an old guy who can’t dribble around a traffic cone and a fat chucker who loves to hoist 18-foot bricks. But that’s just me.

    75. Nick C.

      BigBlueAL:
      “But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.”

      I thought the pre-Melo trade team was just as if not more enjoyable to watch.Their 13-1 stretch to me was just as fun if not more fun to watch than the 8-1 Linsanity stretch.But they eventually settled in to what they really were and was 28-26 before the Melo trade.

      The Linsanity lineup wasnt gonna be able to sustain their play for much longer especially when you consider they werent playing that good on offense during that amazing stretch.The 7-1 stretch after Woodson took over was more optimistic to me because everyone was involved and while Lin’s numbers were nowhere near what they were during Linsanity it proved that they could all play together and win.

      Again though for me the 13-1 stretch which included Amar’e and his 30 pt games streak was even more fun because that was the first great long stretch of play by a Knick team in a decade and that stretch included the entire team contributing as well and was the best offense Id ever seen a Knick team play (Felton of course was the PG).

      +1

    76. er

      i honestly would like to know what will be said if our pgs have good seasons…..felton will be fine and kidd will actually play some 2 i think and we really neeed his spot up 3 shooting

      no gallo team was really good…….and the linsanity team wasnt all that good either so…

      JK47:
      To me “good” and “enjoyable” go hand in hand.This team would have been a lot more “good” thus “enjoyable” with a point guard who can actually break down a defender and score at an efficient rate rather than an old guy who can’t dribble around a traffic cone and a fat chucker who loves to hoist 18-foot bricks.But that’s just me.

    77. BigBlueAL

      JK47:
      To me “good” and “enjoyable” go hand in hand.This team would have been a lot more “good” thus “enjoyable” with a point guard who can actually break down a defender and score at an efficient rate rather than an old guy who can’t dribble around a traffic cone and a fat chucker who loves to hoist 18-foot bricks.But that’s just me.

      Dude seriously we get it. You hate the Knicks now that they let Lin go and according to you they will be the worst team in the history of sports because of it. Youve made your point ad nauseam already.

    78. JK47

      Kidd shot .354 from 3 last year. Whoop de doo. The NBA in its entirety shot .349 last year. A slightly better than average 3-point shooter, that should save the day.

      He’s also old as fuck so at some point he’ll lose his legs and shoot a lot worse than that.

    79. max fisher-cohen

      @BigBlueAL, Linsanity defense was worse than early Woodson defense:

      Linsanity Opponent FG%: 43%
      Early Woodson Opponent FG%: 40.8%

      Linsanity Opponent TS%: 51.3%
      Early Woodson Opponent TS%: 49.8%

      Linsanity Opponent TOs: 16.3/game
      Early Woodson Opponent TOs: 16.6/game

      Linsanity NY Rebounding Differential: 0.3/game
      Early Woodson NY Rebounding Differential: 7.7/game

      That rebounding differential alone, if it was repeated across an entire season, would be the best rebounding differential by a full rebound going back to when ESPN gives records (12 seasons). It is double the rebounding differential of many of the season leading teams in previous seasons. As offensive rebounds (which NY prevented for opponents and earned for themselves) generally lead to high percentage shots, that difference alone is probably worth about 9 points in point differential for the Knicks.

      How did this happen? My guess is that the team was terrified, playing off pure adrenaline, recognizing that this was their season, that if they kept losing it would do permanent damage to their reputations. To me, that is less replicable than my impression of Linsanity, which was a bunch of guys who normally didn’t get to play happy to be out there causing havoc.

      The proof is in the pudding in that despite the fact that a point guard and a subpar rebounding big got hurt, the Knicks’ rebounding fell off significantly in the rest of the season.

    80. knickfan92

      Lin will probably average 15 and 5 which is good but he will probably struggle since the rockets have no other threats to score. I understand felton was overweight last year but let’s give him a chance people. He was pretty good with the knicks given that was in d antonis system but we don’t really need a scoring pg. We need someone who can pass and not turn the ball over 10 times a game like lin. That is all.

    81. max fisher-cohen

      knickfan92: in will probably average 15 and 5 which is good but he will probably struggle since the rockets have no other threats to score.

      Novak, Chandler, Jeffries, Shumpert, Fields, Walker is an awful offensive offensive unit — probably on par with the Bobcats — and yet those were the rotation guys during Linsanity.

    82. nicos

      max fisher-cohen:

      The proof is in the pudding in that despite the fact that a point guard and a subpar rebounding big got hurt, the Knicks’ rebounding fell off significantly in the rest of the season.

      Of course the rebounding fell off- you swapped basically swapped Amar’e's minutes for more Novak, Fields, Smith, and Shump- guys who saw more minutes at the three when Melo moved to the four. Complain about Amar’e all you like but he’s a far better rebounder than any of those guys and he’s a better rebounder at the 4 than Melo. So, by swapping Amar’e for Melo at the four you lose rebounding there and by swapping Melo for Novak and an assortment of twos, you lose even more rebounding at that position. I don’t think that crazy rebound rate was sustainable over the course of a season but when both Melo and Amar’e are playing hard this should be a very good rebounding team.

    83. 2FOR18

      Frank O.: I know this might anger some, but I’m just asking:
      Players have always unified in players getting paid whatever the market will bear, but in the case of the Asian American….I found it stunning that Melo would comment on the merits of the contract publicly, that JR would say players will be bitter and then Stackhouse.
      Of course Lin won’t say anything about this. Of course he’ll say he didn’t think Melo had any problems with him. He’s got to play in this league. But it probably made it a lot easier to leave.
      Does anyone else think race was an issue in this commentary among players?

      Yup. I think race has payed a part in the whole saga.

    84. Z-man

      JK47: Kidd shot .354 from 3 last year. Whoop de doo. The NBA in its entirety shot .349 last year. A slightly better than average 3-point shooter, that should save the day.He’s also old as fuck so at some point he’ll lose his legs and shoot a lot worse than that.

      Lin shot .325 from 3, is a career .310, and .333 in 4 years from the college 3. Hopefully you’ll enjoy watching him brick and butcher his way to obscurity on the irrelevant Rockets next year.

    85. 2FOR18

      sourdoughboy:
      Bad form replying to my own post… but does no one else love the Strickland comp as much as I do?

      I think it gives some perspective to the situation, especially because fans who remember Strickland probably aren’t as pissed about letting Lin go as those who don’t. Exciting young slashing guard with some holes in his game (Strickland/Lin) ditched in favor of old vet (Cheeks/Kidd) who fits better with the system.

      To Lin skeptics: Imagine Strickland had burst on the scene in the same way as Lin… Ewing goes down, Strickland (Bronx kid makes good!) starts for first time and leads Knicks on improbable run to salvage the season, etc. etc., a lot of fans would have been really really pissed with the Mo Cheeks trade.

      To Lin fans: Letting Strickland go made some sense because he didn’t fit it with the Ewing-led team. Yes, it’s a dumb move, but are you going to stop being a fan because of Rod Strickland?

      I wish people would stop using this argument. Again, it’s not just the Lin thing. It’s just the last straw for some (no need to list all of the other straws as we’re all aware of them).

    86. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      knickfan92:
      Lin will probably average 15 and 5 which is good but he will probably struggle since the rockets have no other threats to score. I understand felton was overweight last year but let’s give him a chance people. He was pretty good with the knicks given that was in d antonis system but we don’t really need a scoring pg. We need someone who can pass and not turn the ball over 10 times a game like lin. That is all.

      Right. Kevan Martin, he of the .601 TS% and 29.4 USG% in 2010-11, is not a threat to score. You’re out of your mind.

    87. 2FOR18

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Right. Kevan Martin, he of the .601 TS% and 29.4 USG% in 2010-11, is not a threat to score. You’re out of your mind.

      Be prepared. If Lin puts up big numbers, the same people who are now saying Lin will suck because Houston sucks, are going to say it’s because no one else on his team is any good.

    88. Z-man

      Z: Yeah, except that JR Smith’s comment was unsolicited, wasn’t it? Didn’t he tweet his feelings?It does seem that there were two factions in the Knick lockerroom– the fraternity and the “new wave”. The new wave is all but gone now, purged from the system: Lin, Landry, Walker, Harrelson, Jordan… All the guys that came here with something to prove. The guys that came here “proven” still linger on. But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.It’s all still so depressing. I hate this team.

      What fans are you talking about? Who are you to speak for all fans? The “new wave” you refer to are a bunch of scrubs that may struggle to stay in rotations for their entire careers. That’s what you find enjoyable to watch? How many times have we seen “fun” players on this team take us on a playoff run? Lee? Gallo? Mozgov?

      I am a diehard fan and have enjoyed every winning version of the Knicks. Were you around for the Bernard King days? Who were the “new wave” guys on that team? That team had basically one offensive play: give it to Bernard on the baseline and get out of his way. If this team could give me as much excitement as that team did, I’d be thrilled. And I think this team is far better than that team was. How any Knicks fan can possibly conclude that this team will not be fun to watch before giving them a chance is truly beyond me.

    89. JK47

      Z-man: Lin shot .325 from 3, is a career .310, and .333 in 4 years from the college 3. Hopefully you’ll enjoy watching him brick and butcher his way to obscurity on the irrelevant Rockets next year.

      But Lin is good at other things. Kidd’s spot-up shooting is one of his last remaining skills.

      I’m starting to feel like a troll here, and I don’t want to be that guy, because I like all the people here. So I’m just going to say good luck to everybody, and thanks for all the illuminating discussions over the years. I’ll probably still read this blog from time to time but I think it’s time for me to retire as a commenter.

    90. gjknick

      The issue is it’s going to take more time for some of the posters to move on than others. Some will (or already have) move on more quickly and root for who’s here. Others, (myself included) are still in the anger mode over the stupidity of letting Lin go for nothing. I have nothing against Kidd or Felton – I hope they both perform well. We know about the cost of keeping Lin -luxury tax – but as posters here have pointed out, there were ways to manage that – stretch provision. But it really seems as if Dolan made a petty emotional decision. That’s hard for me to swallow and get over. Anyway, this is all repetitive. Go Knicks, I guess.

    91. knickfan92

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Right. Kevan Martin, he of the .601 TS% and 29.4 USG% in 2010-11, is not a threat to score. You’re out of your mind.

      We will see how many games the rockets win and how lin contributes. Until then everything is just speculation on lin.

    92. Z-man

      JK47: But Lin is good at other things. Kidd’s spot-up shooting is one of his last remaining skills.I’m starting to feel like a troll here, and I don’t want to be that guy, because I like all the people here. So I’m just going to say good luck to everybody, and thanks for all the illuminating discussions over the years. I’ll probably still read this blog from time to time but I think it’s time for me to retire as a commenter.

      Lin has not yet proven that he is good enough at anything to merit a $15 mill guarantee in year 3 of a contract. In my opinion, 25 games is just not enough to do that. He has clearly visible and statistical flaws in his game that were becoming more visible as time went on. You want to blame them on injury, Melo’s selfishness and Woodson’s system, and I’m OK with that..if he turns out to be a great, or even a very good player, I will admit that I guessed wrong and move on. If he turns out to be a bust and Felton becomes an all-star for the next 5 years, I’ll gloat a bit, and still move on. Either way, I will root hard for the orange and blue and hang on every game, like I have since the days of Bellamy and Komives. To me, that’s what being a fan is all about…rooting for the team whether it’s Willis Reed, Tyson Chandler, or Eddy Curry manning the paint.

    93. diehardknickerbocker

      d-mar:
      @46 I think Jon Abbey said it best a few threads ago, if getting by the Heat or not is your measure of success or failure, then we should all just give up (sorry if I misquoted you Jon) Let’s just see if we can get to the ECF and take our chances, maybe a key injury or two for the Heat (instead of the Knicks for a change) and we move on.

      no we wanna beat them wit there full mob so there’s no excuses

    94. Z-man

      gjknick: but as posters here have pointed out, there were ways to manage that – stretch provision.

      This is a lousy reason to justify matching. As if losing $5 mill of cap space for 2 years beyond 2015 is not a big deal. Suppose we need that cap space to pursue two max players and can’d do it because we are paying for a player that isn’t even on the team, and that created such a circus by being a failure that he had to be cut.

    95. max fisher-cohen

      Z-man: What fans are you talking about? Who are you to speak for all fans? The “new wave” you refer to are a bunch of scrubs that may struggle to stay in rotations for their entire careers. That’s what you find enjoyable to watch? How many times have we seen “fun” players on this team take us on a playoff run? Lee? Gallo? Mozgov?

      I am a diehard fan and have enjoyed every winning version of the Knicks. Were you around for the Bernard King days? Who were the “new wave” guys on that team? That team had basically one offensive play: give it to Bernard on the baseline and get out of his way. If this team could give me as much excitement as that team did, I’d be thrilled. And I think this team is far better than that team was. How any Knicks fan can possibly conclude that this team will not be fun to watch before giving them a chance is truly beyond me.

      The 90s Knicks had one superstar and a bunch of journeymen and role players, complemented by players who had been written off by other teams. Anthony Mason was picked in the THIRD round, 53rd overall, and John Starks was undrafted and looked for a while to be a career CBA player.

      @nicos
      I should have said the entire defense declined, not just rebounding. We were no longer putting up all-millenium defensive numbers, which shouldn’t be surprising since this team doesn’t have all-millenium defensive talent. It’s a good defensive team, potentially 3rd or 4th best in the league with Shumpert, Chandler and Jeffries getting significant minutes. That peak is still an order of magnitude worse than the performance htey put up in Woodson’s first 7 games.

    96. Z-man

      diehardknickerbocker: no we wanna beat them wit there full mob so there’s no excuses

      When the Knicks went to the Finals in 1994, nobody cared that Jordan was not there. Either way is fine by me.

    97. 2FOR18

      Z-man: This is a lousy reason to justify matching. As if losing $5 mill of cap space for 2 years beyond 2015 is not a big deal.Suppose we need that cap space to pursue two max players and can’d do it because we are paying for a player that isn’t even on the team, and that created such a circus by being a failure that he had to be cut.

      Then that’s another reason to sign Lin – to save _______ fans from more stupid max deals.

    98. Z-man

      max fisher-cohen: The 90s Knicks had one superstar and a bunch of journeymen and role players, complemented by players who had been written off by other teams. Anthony Mason was picked in the THIRD round, 53rd overall, and John Starks was undrafted and looked for a while to be a career CBA player.@nicosI should have said the entire defense declined, not just rebounding. We were no longer putting up all-millenium defensive numbers, which shouldn’t be surprising since this team doesn’t have all-millenium defensive talent. It’s a good defensive team, potentially 3rd or 4th best in the league with Shumpert, Chandler and Jeffries getting significant minutes. That peak is still an order of magnitude worse than the performance htey put up in Woodson’s first 7 games.

      Jeffries? He’s gone, no?

      max, I was responding to Z’s and others criticism that this team is unwatchable because of the nature of the players we have and those we have let go, and your response indicates that you are missing my point, which is: I don’t get too wrapped up in whether this team resembles 1969, 1973, 1983, 1994, 1999 or is different from all of them, whether they have all rookie ivy league grads of all ethnicities or all Stephs and Eddys…so long as they win. Otherwise, why not be a mercenary fan who roots for a different team each year based on his/her aestethic preferences? My first loyalty is to the uniform, not the owners or players.

    99. Z-man

      2FOR18: Then that’s another reason to sign Lin – to save _______ fans from more stupid max deals.

      Now that’s an intelligent response. Maybe I should play along and say the Dolan is perfectly capable of screwing up non-max deals :)

    100. BigBlueAL

      “The 90s Knicks had one superstar and a bunch of journeymen and role players, complemented by players who had been written off by other teams. Anthony Mason was picked in the THIRD round, 53rd overall, and John Starks was undrafted and looked for a while to be a career CBA player.”

      I assume you are referring to Riley’s Knick teams because the 99-00 teams had a boatload of lottery picks and 1st rounders on the team.

      The only journeymen on Riley’s teams were famously Mason and Starks but thats it. Oakley was from a journeyman, he was a Top 10 pick who averaged 13 rebs/g in his prior 2 seasons before being traded to the Knicks. Charles Smith for as much as we all hate him was the 3rd pick in the draft and had some very good seasons before being traded to the Knicks. All the PG’s they had (Jax/Anthony/Doc/Harper) were all 1st round picks and some former All-Stars. Hell even Hubert Davis was a 1st round pick for the Knicks.

      Linsanity was a fun time but if you really believe that their play was somehow more sustainable than the stretch of play under Woodson before Lin and Amar’e got hurt than man I dunno what to say. Also despite their rebounding falling off after Lin and Amar’e got hurt they went 12-5 to finish the season w/o Lin.

    101. Z-man

      re Strickland, I was very upset when I heard the news of that trade…I felt that Cheeks was in decline and that Strick was a great tandem with Mark Jackson. turned out that Jackson was jettisoned shortly thereafter! I didn’t have a problem with losing Strick but thought we could have gotten much ore in return.

      I don’t feel nearly as badly about the Lin non-match. Strick played well for nearly a year and a half, was making chickenfeed for a salary, and was a college first team all-american with a top-shelf program in DePaul. I see far more uncertainty with Lin–the weak left hand, the suspect perimeter shot, the durablity concern with his attack-the-rim game, the mediocre defense, etc., combined with the downward trend in his performance statistics and his so-so college resume–that made me feel like it was a reasonable decision not to match. Not to mention the point in time for this team and the fact that his contract would pay him more in 2015 than Steve Nash ever made in a year.

      Strickland is a reasonable ceiling for Lin, but I doubt he gets there. To my recollection, Strick was quicker, had a much better left hand, and was a better defender as a rookie.

    102. 2FOR18

      Z-man: Now that’s an intelligent response. Maybe I should play along and say the Dolan is perfectly capable of screwing up non-max deals :)

      touche

    103. jon abbey

      Strickland was another in the line of talented but dumb PGs we’ve had post-Clyde.

      it was hard to be too upset about his loss after he made what is still maybe the single dumbest play I’ve seen (given the importance of the situation), what is described here as “Rod Strickland’s goofball behind-the-back pass in Game 7 semifinal loss to Portland in ’90″, ranked here as the 7th worst moment in Spurs history:

      http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2008-05-22-west-folo_N.htm

      I didn’t see it on youtube, but if you can find it, prepare to be amused and stunned at the same time.

    104. Z-man

      jon, Strick made a classic horrible play there, but that shouldn’t define his career, any more than the Isiah blunder vs. Celts defined him. Derek Harper made a similarly stupid play when a rook with the Mavs. Overall, Strick was a real good player, maybe not a savant but clearly worth way more than a declining Cheeks at that time. If Lin turned out to be close to as good as Strick, I’d be willing to eat lots of crow about not matching Lin. Don’t think he’ll be close, though.

    105. ruruland

      JK47: But Lin is good at other things.Kidd’s spot-up shooting is one of his last remaining skills.

      I’m starting to feel like a troll here, and I don’t want to be that guy, because I like all the people here.So I’m just going to say good luck to everybody, and thanks for all the illuminating discussions over the years.I’ll probably still read this blog from time to time but I think it’s time for me to retire as a commenter.

      Uh, no, I’d say Kidd’s spot-up shooting is his least valuable skill, though he can be a very good spot-up shooter.

    106. Z-man

      Sorry but I’m bored and we’re heading into the dog days before preseason. So, what do we have?

      C: Chandler, Camby, Amare
      PF: Amare, Thomas, Camby/Melo, Copeland
      SF: Melo, Novak, White/Copeland
      SG: Smith, Kidd, White/Prigioni (Shump in Jan)
      PG: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni

      Seems like we could really use a defensive SG, 3-pt shooter and/or a defensive PF to round out the roster.

      Weems? Extra E? Who else?

    107. Brian Cronin

      I don’t know why Extra E isn’t already on the team. It seems like a no-brainer. He wants to be here, there’s a spot for a third-string 3/4 behind Novak, it should just get done (although, honestly, if they sign Extra E, I wouldn’t be surprised if Woody started playing him over Novak because of his defense).

      Minny is interested in Brewer and they have cap room to give him over the vet minimum, so I’d imagine if they want him they will get him.

    108. massive

      What about Josh Childress? He was really good the last time he played under Woodson. I’m not sure of what went wrong in PHX.

    109. massive

      I just read that NY Times article about Raymond Felton. The good news is that he’s lost 20+ pounds and that he’s been committed to becoming a better defensive player this off-season. The bad news is that he wants to return to his form as a Knick. We don’t want that, Ray. We want a more efficient version.

    110. Eyal

      Z: Yeah, except that JR Smith’s comment was unsolicited, wasn’t it? Didn’t he tweet his feelings?

      It does seem that there were two factions in the Knick lockerroom– the fraternity and the “new wave”. The new wave is all but gone now, purged from the system: Lin, Landry, Walker, Harrelson, Jordan… All the guys that came here with something to prove. The guys that came here “proven” still linger on. But it was the Linsanity lineup that was the first Knick team here that was actually enjoyable for fans to root for.

      It’s all still so depressing. I hate this team.

      +1

    111. 2FOR18

      Given what Grunwald had to work/deal with, I don’t think any ______ fan can complain about the additions of Kidd, Camby and Felton. I think the ______ will give us a good run for # 2 in the Atlantic.

    112. Z-man

      2FOR18: Given what Grunwald had to work/deal with, I don’t think any ______ fan can complain about the additions of Kidd, Camby and Felton. I think the ______ will give us a good run for # 2 in the Atlantic.

      Wait, who are you and what did you do with 2FOR18?

    113. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Brian Cronin:
      Maybe Josh Selby for the back-up 2 roster spot?

      Find me a player who had a productive career after a rookie season, however short, in which he was -0.100 WS/48.

      WP48? -0.192.

      I don’t care that he played two hundred minutes. He is NOT an NBA player.

    114. Z-man

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Find me a player who had a productive career after a rookie season, however short, in which he was -0.100 WS/48.WP48? -0.192.I don’t care that he played two hundred minutes. He is NOT an NBA player.

      Really? Seems like there are some pretty good NBA players on this list.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1980&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=Y&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ws_per_48&c1comp=lt&c1val=0&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

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