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Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 13 2012)

  • [New York Times] Kidd and Camby Introduced as the Newest Knicks (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:20:05 GMT)
    Jason Kidd, 39, is expected to mentor Jeremy Lin for the Knicks, while Marcus Camby, 38, will be looked upon to bolster the defense.

  • [New York Times] Nets Introduce the New Additions Teletovic and Evans (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:20:05 GMT)
    Mirza Teletovic, an N.B.A. newcomer from the Spanish team Caja Laboral, led the Euroleague in scoring last season by averaging 21.7 points.

  • [New York Times] Roundup: Griffin Injury Clears Way on Olympic Team for Anthony Davis (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:20:05 GMT)
    Blake Griffin returned to Los Angeles for an evaluation of a left knee injury, opening the door for Anthony Davis to join the United States Olympic basketball team.

  • [New York Post] Jason willing to be Jeremy’s backup, but wants to close games (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 03:34:58 -0500)
    Jason Kidd, in his latest stop on his journey to the Hall of Fame, wants to teach, wants to mentor, wants to instruct Jeremy Lin. But Kidd also wants to be on the floor when the game is on the line.
    Starting? Doesn’t matter. Finishing? Matters. Kidd said so…

  • [New York Post] Vets help, but it will be same old story (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:58:05 -0500)
    They have not arrived in the nick of time, because that time is long gone, and there is no Fountain of Youth that can help Jason Kidd turn back the clock to when he was Deron Williams or prevent Marcus Camby from resembling a fossilized Anthony Davis.
    They are the…

  • [New York Post] High-flier White looking to stick with the Knicks (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 03:21:02 -0500)
    LAS VEGAS â?? James White isn’t trying to win the NBA Slam-Dunk contest as much as he’s trying to win playing time as a Knicks swingman. Even more minutes might become available if the team doesn’t match Landry Fields’ offer sheet by Saturday.
    The former 6-foot-7 Cincinnati high-flier…

  • [New York Post] Veteran Camby glad to be back at the Garden (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 03:21:02 -0500)
    The Knicks have Allan Houston as an assistant general manager, Larry Johnson as a player development rep, Herb Williams as an assistant coach.
    And now Marcus Camby. As a player. The Knicks seem to be reuniting that 1999 NBA Finals team one way or another.
    “I saw that, especially with…

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks glad to have Kidd, Camby in mix (Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:27:17 GMT)
    Marcus Camby isn’t leaping as high as he did when he wore a Knicks jersey way back in the 1999 NBA Finals, and Jason Kidd has lost some of the wizardry that willed the Nets to two straight Finals appearances.

  • 131 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 13 2012)

    1. Frank O.

      All of this Knicks interest, and yet we are months from the season.
      I may need to check out for a bit. I don’t want to peak too early. lol
      As much as I like Landry and feel he will be a good two or three in the NBA, I find it hard to believe the Knicks would match him, even with the idiot’s deep pockets. The tax is brutal. I also think that Landry doesn’t need that kind of added pressure.
      I honestly think the Knicks messed up his shot terribly last off season. He was never comfortable and a lack of practice time exacerbated his issues.
      A normal season, with normal preparation is just what this group needs.
      And bank on it, Amare’s TS% will be through the roof this year. He had flashes last year when he was healthy of being the freak we all know, but he never fully got settled, and his brother’s death compounded that situation. We all think because these guys make millions that they should be able to put aside depression and despair, but few people can. This year will e different.

    2. art vandelay

      Personally, I think the handwriting was on the wall for fields’ tenure as a knick, unless they could re-sign him at a bargain basement rate, when Woodson was brought back. I can recall several shouting matches between the two during last season…Landry seemed to be Woodson’s punching bag when things were going poorly and rarely got crunch time mins over Jr even when it was warranted and Jr couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. Yesterday Woodson was very blase on Landry’s prospects…I think they see him as useful in dantonis system moving off the ball and getting out in transition, but basically a net negative in a melo-centric offense where spot-up shooting off of double teams is critical.

    3. art vandelay

      Someone mentioned in an earlier thread a few days ago that we ought to utilize novacaine in more pick and pop action, or with pindown screens, as mda used in the Minnesota game when Novak tied the game in waning seconds. I actually think this will be more a part of the second-unit offense next season, as we did actually see Woodson attempt to incorporate such a plan in that wild win over Chicago at msg on Easter Sunday…there was a play drawn up for Novak on a timeout featuring pindown screen in which he popped out to 3 pt line…unfortunately his shot just rolled in and out.

    4. KnickfaninNJ

      Frank,

      I know just how you feel. On the other hand, summer league is about to start, and I’d like to know who will actually play for the Knicks. Maybe Knickerblogger could write some sort of preview.

    5. Brian Cronin

      Personally, I think the handwriting was on the wall for fields’ tenure as a knick, unless they could re-sign him at a bargain basement rate, when Woodson was brought back. I can recall several shouting matches between the two during last season…Landry seemed to be Woodson’s punching bag when things were going poorly and rarely got crunch time mins over Jr even when it was warranted and Jr couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. Yesterday Woodson was very blase on Landry’s prospects…I think they see him as useful in dantonis system moving off the ball and getting out in transition, but basically a net negative in a melo-centric offense where spot-up shooting off of double teams is critical.

      Yeah, it really is weird. For Fields’ sake, with this particular coach and this particular roster, he probably is better off playing for a worse team that actually really wants him (which is why Hahn’s “loyalty” shot at Fields was particularly maddening). I know he likes playing in New York (as he should, since playing in New York is awesome) but the fit really is not a good one. The question coming into this offseason was whether another team would even offer Fields $4 million a year, let alone $7 million! That is from Fields’ sake. Now for the Knicks’ sake, unless the Knicks can get Brewer, Fields is likely their best option among free agent 2′s, and he likely will shoot better this season (how could he shoot any worse?). It is just whether you want to pay $5 million to a back-up while possibly being on the hook for $15 million the next two years (plus a crap ton of luxury tax).

    6. Brian Cronin

      An interesting thing about Fields is that his contract in the final year would allow the Knicks to pick up an expensive player with more years left on his deal that another team is trying to dump (preferring to get Fields for just one year than their guy for multiple years). Like, say the Nic Batum era does not work out in Minny. It might be one of the few assets the Knicks have to offer in two years that can get them a good player.

    7. Z-man

      I am convinced that Fields is not coming back, not for that money. Woodson clearly doesn’t like his game. There will be more free agents/waived players to be had that will easily replace everything Fields gave us last year. Does anyone really think he’ll revert back to his rookie numbers under the NY win now microscope?

      On another note, what is the freaking holdup with Lin already? Is it Lin or Morey doing the stalling? It’s freaking maddening. Maybe they mutually agree to move on? That would hurt Lin, right? Or can Lin get a higher offer from another team at this point, say from Toronto, who seems hell-bent to screw us? Freaking weird.

    8. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      An interesting thing about Fields is that his contract in the final year would allow the Knicks to pick up an expensive player with more years left on his deal that another team is trying to dump (preferring to get Fields for just one year than their guy for multiple years). Like, say the Nic Batum era does not work out in Minny. It might be one of the few assets the Knicks have to offer in two years that can get them a good player.

      I think Grunwald or whoever is GM at that point will be highly motivated to get the Knicks under the tax line in 15-16 though – that’ll be the repeater tax year if I remember correctly. Figure Melo will be 31 at that point and probably still playing at a high level, and probably will be resigned. STAT/TC probably will be gone after 14-15 or at least re-signed to a much lower #. So their cap situation is really unclear. That’s a huge risk to be taking.

      btw, anyone know whether Kidd’s 3rd year is guaranteed? Can’t seem to find it.

    9. Brian Cronin

      I am convinced that Fields is not coming back, not for that money. Woodson clearly doesn’t like his game. There will be more free agents/waived players to be had that will easily replace everything Fields gave us last year. Does anyone really think he’ll revert back to his rookie numbers under the NY win now microscope?

      I agree that it is unlikely that the Knicks match on Fields, and yes, Woody not being a fan has to be a major factor.

      On another note, what is the freaking holdup with Lin already? Is it Lin or Morey doing the stalling? It’s freaking maddening. Maybe they mutually agree to move on? That would hurt Lin, right? Or can Lin get a higher offer from another team at this point, say from Toronto, who seems hell-bent to screw us? Freaking weird.

      I don’t get it either. I’ve read somewhere that today will be the day. All indications point to them still being willing to do it (simply because they would “have” to after verbally agreeing to do it).

    10. Brian Cronin

      I think Grunwald or whoever is GM at that point will be highly motivated to get the Knicks under the tax line in 15-16 though – that’ll be the repeater tax year if I remember correctly. Figure Melo will be 31 at that point and probably still playing at a high level, and probably will be resigned. STAT/TC probably will be gone after 14-15 or at least re-signed to a much lower #. So their cap situation is really unclear. That’s a huge risk to be taking.

      btw, anyone know whether Kidd’s 3rd year is guaranteed? Can’t seem to find it.

      But the situation would be much clearer when the time would come. Before the 2014-15 season, the Knicks would have an idea of what the roster will likely look like in 2015-16. As you note, Amar’e is likely gone for 2015-16, so where does his replacement come from? That’s where the Fields’ money could come in handy during a trade.

      But oh yeah, it is obviously a risk period because it is so much money.

      As for Kidd, while no one has said it explicitly, I believe it is implied that the third year is guaranteed. It was in the Dallas offer so I don’t see any way that it wouldn’t be in the New York deal.

    11. Frank

      Brian Cronin: As for Kidd, while no one has said it explicitly, I believe it is implied that the third year is guaranteed. It was in the Dallas offer so I imagine it would be the same in the New York offer.

      so then the NYK would have Kidd’s ~4M contract and Camby’s partially guaranteed contract of about the same amount as trade chips that year.

      I dunno – as someone who liked the Landry Fields of early-mid 2010-11, I wouldn’t mind if they matched, but I just don’t see it happening. I guess we’ll know in 24h or so.

      My feeling is that we could get 80+% of the benefit for 20% the price if we just waited to see what guys are left standing when the FA music stops. Would love to see Ronnie Brewer or Pietrus in a Knick uniform. Even DeShawn Stevenson could probably be had for the minimum, and would bring good D and similarly crappy shooting. Maybe if we put Kidd/DeShawn/Tyson out there with Novak wearing a Dirk mask, LBJ would have a PTSD response from 2010-11.

      Or if we are looking for O, then Willie Green, Michael Redd, etc. might be available. I’d also be open to Billy Walker coming back, although I’m not sure he would given how he was unceremoniously dumped with 5 minutes left in the season.

    12. Frank

      Actually forget DeShawn Stevenson. I didn’t realize just how horrible he was shooting the ball. 3 out of the last 4 years his TS% has been <42%?!?!?

    13. Brian Cronin

      I agree on Brewer. I just don’t think Brewer will be available for what the Knicks will have to offer. And I bet Pietrus stays in Boston. So I don’t think the Knicks will be able to replicate 80% of the benefit for 20% of the price. However, I do think they could get 50-60% of the benefit for that 20% price, so does that make more sense than keeping Fields and hoping he reverts to 2010-11? Probably. I don’t think it is no-brainer, but probably.

      Honestly, I personally wouldn’t match the offer as it is just too much money, but I wouldn’t think the Knicks were nuts if they did so. Especially if Dolan truly doesn’t give a shit about the money.

    14. Z-man

      I probably am getting ahead of myself, but White and Prigioni are two players I am very excited to learn more about.

      Re: White, JR made some of the most athletic plays I ever saw last year, and White seems to be even more athletic than him! If he can defend at least as well as Fields, a lineup of Lin/Kidd, JR/Shump, White, Melo and STAT/Chandler/Camby should be good for many a dunkfest! White has also apparently learned how to get to the line, hopefully that carries over to the NBA.

      Re: Prigioni, having three true pass-first PGs is hard to believe. Compare that to last year’s opening day PG situation: TD, Shump and Bibby. What a freaking transformation.

    15. ephus

      If the Knicks want to avoid the Repeater tax, they will have to be under the tax threshold in both 2015-16 and 2016-17. ‘Bockers 2015-16 salary sheet is pretty clean at this point (Novak ($3.75 million) and Lin (team option @ $9.3 million). The economics of the league may change dramatically in 2015, because that is when the national TV packages expire. If those numbers go up in the same way as local media packages have increased, the salary cap calculus will be entirely different.

      The upcoming 2015 national TV rights auction is the biggest reason why each side wanted the right to re-open the CBA after six years (after the 2016-17 season).

    16. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, there’s little doubt that the national TV contract will go up dramatically. Sports on TV are one of the few areas where people still watch live television (and the ads). Sports and singing shows! :)

    17. Frank

      ephus:
      If the Knicks want to avoid the Repeater tax, they will have to be under the tax threshold in both 2015-16 and 2016-17.‘Bockers 2015-16 salary sheet is pretty clean at this point (Novak ($3.75 million) and Lin (team option @ $9.3 million).The economics of the league may change dramatically in 2015, because that is when the national TV packages expire.If those numbers go up in the same way as local media packages have increased, the salary cap calculus will be entirely different.

      The upcoming 2015 national TV rights auction is the biggest reason why each side wanted the right to re-open the CBA after six years (after the 2016-17 season).

      Man ephus, you are awesome. I totally forgot about the TV rights issue. I think both sides were expecting the TV rights fees to go way up, meaning the lux tax and cap thresholds may go way up also. In that sense it may be smart to match Fields and have his big # to trade in 14-15, because it might be tradeable for guys who may be overpaid under this CBA but reasonably or even underpaid in a league in which the salary cap is $20MM higher than it is now.

    18. ephus

      No one knows how much the NBA will get for its national TV rights package in 2015, but I think that all evidence points towards sports becoming relatively more valuable to advertisers because viewers are less likely to time-shift and skip ads.

      I do not think the TV negotiations or the opportunity to re-open the CBA in the summer of 2017 has any impact on the Knicks thinking about bring Fields back through 2015. In the summer of 2014, neither side will yet know how much the salary cap is going to increase.

    19. PaulStreetBoy

      what about Courtney Lee? is he still available? i remember the alley-oop that he was not able to convert in that final game couple years back, but hey he was starting(?) for Magic at the time. if we can squeeze him in, it will be great!

      btw, other than the tax concerns, we can still match Fields and bring any of these others with Gadzuric’s contract, right?

    20. Frank

      This Houston-Orlando drama is really very interesting, and may be the death of the strategy of trying to build an Oakland A’s-style Moneyball club. Morey, the king of basketball-moneyball, seems to have given up on the idea that 10 undervalued players can really overcome a superstar-driven team.

      This is totally rational IMHO, especially given that despite all the “value” Morey has unearthed with his moves over the last few years, they CAN’T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

      Truth is – basketball is not like baseball. In baseball, each player can only have a limited impact – they only come up to bat 4x/game (and you can walk them if you want!), or pitch 1 out of 5 games. This is not at all true in basketball. 98% of the players in this league barely move the needle in terms of championship aspirations, and while they may be slightly over- or underpaid, the relative value of finding the underpaid/undervalued guys is dwarfed by the value of having a true superstar, no matter what the cost of that superstar.

      We can argue as much as we want about Carmelo Anthony (no one here, even Ruru, thinks he’s in a class with LBJ and Howard), but Howard is truly one of those needle-movers – a guy that can’t get paid enough in this ridiculous max-salary world. I totally agree with Morey going all-in on this– it’s the kind of aggressive move that teams not in LA/NY/MIA need to make to get one of these guys.

    21. PaulStreetBoy

      Brian Cronin: Correct.

      well you think NBA players will make a big deal of Fields’ contract so that he will be the odd man out in the team? if not who and why care about Dolan-dollars? just sign him already. and when he figures it out you will be the clever one, if not, it will be another Jerome James or something!

      btw i just read from wiki that Jerome James actually played for Harlem Globetrotters after college! you can’t beat that…

    22. ephus

      Brian Cronin: btw, other than the tax concerns, we can still match Fields and bring any of these others with Gadzuric’s contract, right?
      Correct.

      Brian Cronin

      Yes, but don’t believe the press accounts that the Gadzuric contract can bring back a $2 million player. The maximum sign-and-trade he can bring back (on his own) is $1.79 million. Because the Knicks are over the tax line, they can only bring back 125% of outgoing salary plus $100k in a sign-and-trade. If the ‘Bockers were under the tax line, the limit would be $2.13 million ((outgoing salary ($1.35 million) x 150%) + $100k).

      There are not a lot of players available who are making less than $1.79 million that the Knicks would want for the SG slot.

    23. Z

      Frank:

      Would love to see Ronnie Brewer or Pietrus in a Knick uniform…

      Pietrus’s agent is also James White’s agent, so perhaps there was some kind of schmoozing going on there when Grunwald invited White onto the roster? (Kind of like JR Smith’s brother getting an invite to summer league…)

    24. Z

      The “Fields Conundrum” has become quite an issue, hasn’t it? It’s really the first major crossroad that the Knicks have faced since the Carmelo trade. I wonder if the brain-trust at MSG is split down the middle in their own “to match, or not to match” debates? I can’t wait to see which way it breaks (and I think I’ll probably be disappointed no matter what they decide:)

    25. johnlocke

      100% agreed .

      art vandelay:
      Personally, I think the handwriting was on the wall for fields’ tenure as a knick, unless they could re-sign him at a bargain basement rate, when Woodson was brought back. I can recall several shouting matches between the two during last season…Landry seemed to be Woodson’s punching bag when things were going poorly and rarely got crunch time mins over Jr even when it was warranted and Jr couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. Yesterday Woodson was very blase on Landry’s prospects…I think they see him as useful in dantonis system moving off the ball and getting out in transition, but basically a net negative in a melo-centric offense where spot-up shooting off of double teams is critical.

    26. johnlocke

      Jodi Meeks – great shooter off the catch and off the dribble – should be available…potentially via sign and trade with Gadzuric’s contract

      Frank: so then the NYK would have Kidd’s ~4M contract and Camby’s partially guaranteed contract of about the same amount as trade chips that year.

      I dunno – as someone who liked the Landry Fields of early-mid 2010-11, I wouldn’t mind if they matched, but I just don’t see it happening.I guess we’ll know in 24h or so.

      My feeling is that we could get 80+% of the benefit for 20% the price if we just waited to see what guys are left standing when the FA music stops.Would love to see Ronnie Brewer or Pietrus in a Knick uniform. Even DeShawn Stevenson could probably be had for the minimum, and would bring good D and similarly crappy shooting. Maybe if we put Kidd/DeShawn/Tyson out there with Novak wearing a Dirk mask, LBJ would have a PTSD response from 2010-11.

      Or if we are looking for O, then Willie Green, Michael Redd, etc. might be available. I’d also be open to Billy Walker coming back, although I’m not sure he would given how he was unceremoniously dumped with 5 minutes left in the season.

    27. PaulStreetBoy

      Frank: so then the NYK would have Kidd’s ~4M contract and Camby’s partially guaranteed contract of about the same amount as trade chips that year.

      I dunno – as someone who liked the Landry Fields of early-mid 2010-11, I wouldn’t mind if they matched, but I just don’t see it happening.I guess we’ll know in 24h or so.

      My feeling is that we could get 80+% of the benefit for 20% the price if we just waited to see what guys are left standing when the FA music stops.Would love to see Ronnie Brewer or Pietrus in a Knick uniform. Even DeShawn Stevenson could probably be had for the minimum, and would bring good D and similarly crappy shooting. Maybe if we put Kidd/DeShawn/Tyson out there with Novak wearing a Dirk mask, LBJ would have a PTSD response from 2010-11.

      Or if we are looking for O, then Willie Green, Michael Redd, etc. might be available. I’d also be open to Billy Walker coming back, although I’m not sure he would given how he was unceremoniously dumped with 5 minutes left in the season.

      i think DeShawn was part of the Iso-Joe deal as an S&T.

    28. jon abbey

      Z:
      The “Fields Conundrum” has become quite an issue, hasn’t it? It’s really the first major crossroad that the Knicks have faced since the Carmelo trade. I wonder if the brain-trust at MSG is split down the middle in their own “to match, or not to match” debates? I can’t wait to see which way it breaks (and I think I’ll probably be disappointed no matter what they decide:)

      it’s hardly a major crossroads, he’s going to be the 10th guy here or he’s going to be gone. winning that court case was a much much bigger deal.

    29. Frank

      Great line from Tommy Beer at Hoopsworld:

      “Over the final 35 games last season, Steve Novak shot 48.5% from 3PT. As a point of comparssion, over that same stretch, NY’s starting shooting guard Landry Fields shot 48.1% from the free-throw line.”

      btw, I think Brian mentioned it somewhere above, but Gadzuric’s contract doesn’t help us with sign-and-trades — it only helps us when our trading partner already has a guy under contract. We would need to sweeten the pot with something IN ADDITION to Gadzuric’s contract in a sign and trade. So we should be looking for guys making <$2MM/year already signed to a contract in terms of using Gadz's contract. Not to many guys out there other than rookie contracts.

    30. ephus

      Agreed that Landry Fields is not a big deal. It is just the only moving piece on the board right now, so we are all fixated on it. If the Knicks do not match, I do not think it tells us all that much. On the other hand, if the Knicks do match for Fields, it will tell me that the Knicks really are ignoring the luxury tax implications of their moves — at least for this year.

    31. Brian Cronin

      Not to many guys out there other than rookie contracts.

      Yeah, it’s slim pickings as those tend to be the guys who don’t get multiple-year guaranteed contracts, which is what the Knicks have to be hoping to get back for Gadzuric.

    32. yellowboy90

      It looks like the Knicks will have to wait until after the trade dust settles when players are waived or bought out then pick someone.

      The only type of players they can get with Gadz contract are players still on their rookie contract.
      Maybe they see someone with potential like a Malcolm Lee. I really don’t know who they can get with that little contract.

    33. ephus

      It sounds like Woodson is looking to utilize Novak in the pick-and-pop and coming off of screens this year:

      “We’ve got to get him where he’s comfortable working off screens,” Woodson said. “In that position, you’ve got to be able to do that — and he did it in college. In our system, we didn’t run a lot of screen for him last year, and those are the things I think I can do. I can put him more in pick-and-rolls, where teams if they want to switch, they can switch and maybe we’ve got a mismatch with the point guard being guarded by a bigger guy that was guarding him.

      “Those are the things I’ve got to concentrate on with Novak because I think we’ve got to utilize everything that he does from a shooting standpoint. We’ve got to put him in positions to shoot the basketball.”

    34. thenamestsam

      This discussion hasn’t really gotten any play on this message board, but I thought this was a really interesting take on the original Dream Team vs. 2012 Dream Team debate:

      http://hoopspeak.com/2012/07/a-comment-on-the-1992-dream-team-vs-2012-dream-team-debate/

      For those who don’t feel like reading it, basically he argues that the 1992 team (and Jordan) have such a huge legend because they advanced the game so much. They were so far ahead of their times, and today’s players don’t have that same feeling because they’re living in the world that the 1992 team created basically. So while the 1992 team was more transcendent, they probably weren’t really better than today’s team. Very thought provoking read.

    35. Frank

      ephus:
      It sounds like Woodson is looking to utilize Novak in the pick-and-pop and coming off of screens this year:

      “We’ve got to get him where he’s comfortable working off screens,” Woodson said. “In that position, you’ve got to be able to do that — and he did it in college. In our system, we didn’t run a lot of screen for him last year, and those are the things I think I can do. I can put him more in pick-and-rolls, where teams if they want to switch, they can switch and maybe we’ve got a mismatch with the point guard being guarded by a bigger guy that was guarding him.

      “Those are the things I’ve got to concentrate on with Novak because I think we’ve got to utilize everything that he does from a shooting standpoint. We’ve got to put him in positions to shoot the basketball.”

      yeah, i was excited when I read that – if anything it’ll get the defense moving so some good passing will yield good shots. Sebastian Pruiti did a nice post on how Miami defends pick-and-pops here:

      http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/26754/how-miami-defended-indianas-side-pick-and-pops

      but it makes you wonder whether having Novak be the popper might be more effective against that strategy- – you could start the play much farther out, stretching the defense more. West seemed like he ended up with ball about 18 feet out — Novak could catch out at the 3 point line. On top of that, Novak’s release is 6000x faster than West, so that combined with the defense being stretched farther might lead to good looks for Novakaine.

    36. johnlocke

      Of course that article had to have this quote in it:

      “Can you picture a current Dream Teamer, perhaps besides Carmelo Anthony, whose fitness has ever really been an issue in his career?”

      thenamestsam:
      This discussion hasn’t really gotten any play on this message board, but I thought this was a really interesting take on the original Dream Team vs. 2012 Dream Team debate:

      http://hoopspeak.com/2012/07/a-comment-on-the-1992-dream-team-vs-2012-dream-team-debate/

      For those who don’t feel like reading it, basically he argues that the 1992 team (and Jordan) have such a huge legend because they advanced the game so much. They were so far ahead of their times, and today’s players don’t have that same feeling because they’re living in the world that the 1992 team created basically. So while the 1992 team was more transcendent, they probably weren’t really better than today’s team.Very thought provoking read.

    37. Z

      jon abbey: it’s hardly a major crossroads, he’s going to be the 10th guy here or he’s going to be gone. winning that court case was a much much bigger deal.

      Yeah, but this is an actual decision that the FO needs to make. The court case was an event that the team was a bystander to.

      And, yes, Fields isn’t a “major crossroad”, but there is a fundamental philosophical decision to be made here: do we pay a 10th man upwards to $45 million after taxes, just to put the most competitive roster together over the next three years, or do we trim the margins to stay more flexible long term?

      I can see how the decision makers at MSG could be as torn on the issue as the posters here seem to be.

    38. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Of course that article had to have this quote in it:

      “Can you picture a current Dream Teamer, perhaps besides Carmelo Anthony, whose fitness has ever really been an issue in his career?”

      Haha, it’s kind of true though, right? The only other guy I can think of would be DWill didn’t look to me like he was in great shape last year, it’s just that nobody really noticed because the team was such shit and they were never on national TV, but he looked a little chubby to me.

      But even with the slight shot at Melo, I still think his point is a good one. Even Melo’s level of conditioning which we’ve bitched and moaned about, is way, way more than what anyone but a few elite guys were doing in the late 80s-early 90s. The sport has evolved to a place where it demands that you be in elite physical condition. 20 years ago that wasn’t true.

    39. 2FOR18

      thenamestsam: Haha, it’s kind of true though, right? The only other guy I can think of would be DWill didn’t look to me like he was in great shape last year, it’s just that nobody really noticed because the team was such shit and they were never on national TV, but he looked a little chubby to me.

      But even with the slight shot at Melo, I still think his point is a good one. Even Melo’s level of conditioning which we’ve bitched and moaned about, is way, way more than what anyone but a few elite guys were doing in the late 80s-early 90s. The sport has evolved to a place where it demands that you be in elite physical condition. 20 years ago that wasn’t true.

      The ’94 knicks are on MSG now, and I don’t see anyone on that team who looks like he trained on big macs and beer like melo looked last season.

    40. ephus

      The changes in the illegal defense rules have significantly increased the fitness required to stay on the court defensively. In the old days, teams would frequently keep three players out of the offense, and either isolate or play two-man-game into the low post. There were a lot of opportunities for players to rest on both offense and defense.

      Now, every defensive player has to expend energy rotating on most defensive possessions. On offense, there are still some opportunities for a player to conserve energy away from the ball, but they typically come camping out for the corner three, which requires that player to hustle back on defense. The days of drifting from one three point line to the other are long over.

    41. flossy

      Hell, didn’t Vlade Divac smoke cigarettes? Not that he was a Dream Teamer, but he was a damn good center. Hard to imagine an era not long ago where that was considered anything other than totally unacceptable for a pro baller.

      2FOR18: The ’94 knicks are on MSG now, and I don’t see anyone on that team who looks like he trained on big macs and beer like melo looked last season.

    42. johnlocke

      Chris Paul and Kevin Love are other guys who’ve had ‘weight issues’…

      thenamestsam: Haha, it’s kind of true though, right? The only other guy I can think of would be DWill didn’t look to me like he was in great shape last year, it’s just that nobody really noticed because the team was such shit and they were never on national TV, but he looked a little chubby to me.

      But even with the slight shot at Melo, I still think his point is a good one. Even Melo’s level of conditioning which we’ve bitched and moaned about, is way, way more than what anyone but a few elite guys were doing in the late 80s-early 90s. The sport has evolved to a place where it demands that you be in elite physical condition. 20 years ago that wasn’t true.

    43. 2FOR18

      flossy:
      Hell, didn’t Vlade Divac smoke cigarettes?Not that he was a Dream Teamer, but he was a damn good center.Hard to imagine an era not long ago where that was considered anything other than totally unacceptable for a pro baller.

      When Simmons writes about the real old days he mentions the smoking and the pot bellies. Though many of those guys had to work at regular jobs in the offseason.

    44. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Chris Paul and Kevin Love are other guys who’ve had ‘weight issues’…

      Yeah you’re right about Paul. I had forgotten about that. In defense of Paul, Deron and Melo this was in no way a regular offseason. A lot of guys probably were assuming the season wasn’t going to happen and then all of a sudden they were like “Surprise, season starts in two weeks!” so I give them mostly a pass for this year.

      Love was definitely chubby in college and coming into the league, but since he was drafted I haven’t heard a whisper that he’s anything other than one of the hardest workers in the league. Thinking about the amount of weight he has lost and the amount he has added to his game in the few years he has been in the league (an astounding amount actually) I think he may actually be the poster-boy for the idea that Jordan’s fanatical work ethic has become more or less par for the course among the game’s better players.

    45. 2FOR18

      johnlocke:
      Chris Paul and Kevin Love are other guys who’ve had ‘weight issues’…

      Never heard that about Paul – anything to do with his knee injury?. Re: Love, that’s just about a young player new to the league getting into NBA shape.

    46. er

      chris paul, shaquille oneal, lover boy, charles barkley, ……………

      johnlocke:
      Of course that article had to have this quote in it:

      “Can you picture a current Dream Teamer, perhaps besides Carmelo Anthony, whose fitness has ever really been an issue in his career?”

    47. jon abbey

      Z: Yeah, but this is an actual decision that the FO needs to make. The court case was an event that the team was a bystander to.

      And, yes, Fields isn’t a “major crossroad”, but there is a fundamental philosophical decision to be made here: do we pay a 10th man upwards to $45 million after taxes, just to put the most competitive roster together over the next three years, or do we trim the margins to stay more flexible long term?

      I can see how the decision makers at MSG could be as torn on the issue as the posters here seem to be.

      I think it’s far from clear that keeping Fields even at a veteran’s minimum salary is the right call from a basketball standpoint. Grunwald obviously has a much better idea than me whether we can get a guy like Meeks or Brewer, but even if not, this year’s Gerald Green may still be out there.

    48. nicos

      ephus:
      The changes in the illegal defense rules have significantly increased the fitness required to stay on the court defensively.In the old days, teams would frequently keep three players out of the offense, and either isolate or play two-man-game into the low post.There were a lot of opportunities for players to rest on both offense and defense.

      Now, every defensive player has to expend energy rotating on most defensive possessions.On offense, there are still some opportunities for a player to conserve energy away from the ball, but they typically come camping out for the corner three, which requires that player to hustle back on defense.The days of drifting from one three point line to the other are long over.

      At the same time, the game has become much less physical- especially on the perimeter- so the 1992 guys who were used to constantly being bumped and held wouldn’t have to deal with that drain on their energy. Also, people tend to forget that the game was played at a faster pace through much of the 80s- most of these guys were used to playing end to end.

    49. Frank

      jon abbey: Grunwald obviously has a much better idea than me whether we can get a guy like Meeks or Brewer, but even if not, this year’s Gerald Green may still be out there.

      His name might be James White!

    50. Frank

      Sounds like Lin’s offer sheet was only 3 years 25.1MM. No team option for 4th year on the official offer sheet I guess.

    51. yehudi3000

      I had a bad feeling about this, but i dont think it’ll

      Frank:
      Sounds like Lin’s offer sheet was only 3 years 25.1MM. No team option for 4th year on the official offer sheet I guess.

      prevent us from dooing anything.

    52. ruruland

      yellowboy90:
      D Will. Is talking about losing weight this summer. He is trying to lose 15

      He’s had weight problems throughout his career. It was one of the reasons Sloan didn’t play him much early.

    53. ruruland

      2FOR18: Never heard that about Paul – anything to do with his knee injury?.Re: Love, that’s just about a young player new to the league getting into NBA shape.

      lmao

    54. Frank

      Well, I’d say the poison pill that Morey left for us pretty much closes the Landry Fields door. We’ll probably be $20MM+ over the luxury tax threshold that year WITHOUT Landry so that’ll mean $45MM+ in lux tax. I don’t think an extra $25MM just in tax for Landry is doable, even by MSG standards.

    55. The Raging Platypus

      Frank:
      Well, I’d say the poison pill that Morey left for us pretty much closes the Landry Fields door.We’ll probably be $20MM+ over the luxury tax threshold that year WITHOUT Landry so that’ll mean $45MM+ in lux tax.I don’t think an extra $25MM just in tax for Landry is doable, even by MSG standards.

      Pretty much. I still don’t understand why Morey changed the terms like this. He has to know the Knicks are going to match, and it’s not like he made it the poison pill so severe as to give the Knicks pause (he could have added a 4th year at the max, right?). Just seems like a move out of spite more than anything.

    56. ephus

      I think this puts to rest any conspiracy theory about Morey giving Lin a lowball offer in return for a sweet deal on Camby. Lin is going to be a max player in 2014-15. Huge tax liability for the Knicks. Knicks probably pay a 325 or 375% tax rate on the extra $6 million in salary added for 2014-15 — meaning an extra $19 – 22 million in tax. If Houston is not a taxpayer in 2014-15, they figure to get about $500k of that additional tax payment.

    57. yehudi3000

      The Raging Platypus: Pretty much.I still don’t understand why Morey changed the terms like this.He has to know the Knicks are going to match, and it’s not like he made it the poison pill so severe as to give the Knicks pause (he could have added a 4th year at the max, right?).Just seems like a move out of spite more than anything.

      The Knicks just made it too clear that the’re going to match the offer. He wanted a more realistic chance ( still not that much).

      We should wait the full 3 days now, out of spite.

    58. 2FOR18

      nicos: At the same time, the game has become much less physical- especially on the perimeter- so the 1992 guys who were used to constantly being bumped and held wouldn’t have to deal with that drain on their energy. Also, people tend to forget that the game was played at a faster pace through much of the 80s- most of these guys were used to playing end to end.

      Good point. In boxing it’s a lot more taxing to bump and grind than to dance. Since melo is a bump and grinder he really needs to be in amazing shape. Hopefully the weight he supposedly lost from his ass will enable him to jump high enough to make a layup this season.

    59. jon abbey

      what I don’t understand is why NY had to say incessantly publicly that they would match on Lin before they got the actual offer. that seems really stupid and Dolan will be paying for it.

    60. The Raging Platypus

      jon abbey:
      what I don’t understand is why NY had to say incessantly publicly that they would match on Lin before they got the actual offer. that seems really stupid and Dolan will be paying for it.

      Probably more of a PR move than anything to quell any rumblings from the fanbase?

    61. Frank

      jon abbey:
      what I don’t understand is why NY had to say incessantly publicly that they would match on Lin before they got the actual offer. that seems really stupid and Dolan will be paying for it.

      Actually, if you look at Grunwald’s comments the last 2+ days, he has been a little less certain in public. Woodson has been totally clear on it. I think you say you’re DEFINITELY going to match before the offer sheet is officially given so as to prevent any offer sheet from even being offered. Then when the moratorium ends, you make it seem like you might not, in order to get other teams not to just bid the max to piss you off. But Morey did it anyway.

    62. Frank

      LOL with a couple keystrokes on the contract document, Morey just cost Dolan $17.5MM. (9.3–>14MM in year 3 = $5MM + 12.5 MM lux tax). I’m pretty sure Morey’s internet and cable service is going to mysteriously shut off this afternoon.

    63. yehudi3000

      How those lin contract will work at the trade machine if we trade him next year?
      Its worth 5, or 10? (5+15)/2

    64. JK47

      Sorry, I’m very salary cap-challenged, so bear with me–

      This makes Lin’s last year a $15M expiring contract, correct? Which has value? Oww, my brain.

    65. ephus

      If it was not clear to people before, there is no room for doubt that under the new CBA, it is much more valuable to find a rotation player in the late first round pick is much more valuable than as a second round pick or non-drafted free agent.

      If you find a rotation player in the late first round, you have complete control over him for four years, will never have to pay over $3 million in the first four years, can sever ties after two years, and can make him a RFA in year 5.

      If you find a rotation player in the second round, he will be a RFA after two years. The Gilbert Arenas rules creates a strong incentive for competing bidders to put a poison pill on year 3. The competing bidder gets to smooth the salary cap hit.

      Shumpert and Fields and Lin provide a clear example.

      As a last first round draft pick, Shumpert was guaranteed just under $3 million: $1.3 MM in year one and $1.68 MM in year two. For that $3 million investment, the Knicks have the option to bring him back in year 3 for $1.8 million and in year 4 for $2.7 million. In year five, the Knicks can make Shumpert a RFA by extending a Qualifying Offer of $3.9 million.

      As a non-drafted player (or second round pick), Lin (or Fields) would have nothing guaranteed. If they make the team, they get $472k in year one and $762k in year two. But starting in year 3, they get to test the market as restrictred free agents. Each is going make $5 million in year 3 and $5.2 million in year 4 — meaning the Knicks will pay more for the first four years of Lin than they will for the first four years of Shumpert.

      The biggest difference is year 5. Although the max salary for Shumpert and Lin in year 5 are the same, the Knicks have to lock themselves in on paying Lin the max two years out. They can wait two extra years to watch Shumpert develop before deciding what to pay him in year 5.

    66. ephus

      Frank:
      LOL with a couple keystrokes on the contract document, Morey just cost Dolan $17.5MM.(9.3–>14MM in year 3 = $5MM + 12.5 MM lux tax).I’m pretty sure Morey’s internet and cable service is going to mysteriously shut off this afternoon.

      No, its worse than that. Morey cost Dolan about $25 million ($5 million in salary and $19 – 22 million in tax because the tax rate will be 325% or 375% on the last five million).

      Yes, there is value to an expiring $15 million contract, but that value is about taking in a long-term max contract that another team wants to get out of. A non-guaranteed fourth year, even at the max, would have made this contract much more team-friendly.

    67. ephus

      yehudi3000:
      How those lin contract will work at the trade machine if we trade him next year?
      Its worth 5, or 10? (5+15)/2

      Lin’s contract will always be worth the amount the Knicks are paying him in any trade.

      If the Knicks do not match Fields, I am not certain how the trade values will work if Toronto later tries to trade him. For salary cap purposes, Toronto will treat Fields as if his salary was $6.1 million each year.

    68. Frank

      ephus: If it was not clear to people before, there is no room for doubt that under the new CBA, it is much more valuable to find a rotation player in the late first round pick is much more valuable than as a second round pick or non-drafted free agent.

      Yes – will make buying a late 1st rounder much harder, although some teams will still shy away from guaranteed $ since so few 2nd rounders and UDFAs pan out.

    69. Frank

      Teams that have a lot of faith in their scouting departments will love the late 1st round picks. Teams that don’t will still opt for nonguaranteed contracts. It might make draft/stash even more valuable going forward, because you can own them without paying them while watching them develop.

      Man is SA so far ahead of the rest of the field. They must’ve stashed 5-6 guys over there the last few years.

    70. ephus

      In 2013-14 and 2014-15, one way the Knicks may try to save money is only carry 12 players. At 375% tax rate, keeping three veteran’s minimum guys on the inactive squad would cost almost $15 million.

    71. Jafa

      @77,

      As always valuable insight. That truly changes my perspective on late 1st round picks vs. 2nd round picks. So is the 2nd round really a place you want to be picking in the future? If you find a diamond in the rough, you are going to swallow a poison pill contract after his 2nd year to keep him. If you don’t find a useful player, you can just waive him after year 1 or 2 because it is a non-guaranteed contract.

      A team can just focus on trading up into the late 1st to make their picks each year instead of picking in the 2nd round. This way they let other teams give the 2nd round diamonds playing time (almost like a farm system). After observing them for 2 years, they can come in and offer the poison pill and get the player without ever having to use a roster spot for him. Plus their money is only tied up for 3 days instead of 7 days in the past.

    72. Caleb

      @84 too bad we traded our 2nd round pick for literally the next five years.

      I guess you can buy those, same as you buy a 1st-rounder. (though I guess you can only spend $3m a year, these days)

    73. ephus

      When the CBA next gets renegotiated (2017 or 2021), I expect that the NBA will try to change the rules to make them less friendly to second round picks and UDFA. For example, the rule could be that if your rookie contract is for the same or less than the 30th pick salary slot, you are treated at the end of your second season as if you were drafted in the 30th slot of the first round.

      Overseas players who could command a big contract as a rookie would still get to RFA after two years. But players who had no leverage when they signed their rookie contract would not be in a better position than a player who made into the first round.

      Traditionally, the NBPA has been willing to compromise away rights of rookies (particularly second round picks) in order to gain more for veteran players. Since every voting member of the NBPA is already in the league and would not bear the brunt of the new restrictions on incoming players, it makes economic sense.

    74. Jafa

      My goodness, where have I been? The Rockets are offering everything but the kitchen sink (I think its included) for D12.

      Multiple 1st round picks
      The 3 players they just drafted in the top 20
      Kevin Martin, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris and Chandler Parsons
      Willing to take back Jason Richadson, Glen Davis and Chris Duhon

      Just wow! Two things I can’t beleive – the Rockets offering all of that for a guy who may or may not stay after this year and the Magic taking more than 3 seconds to say yes.

    75. The Raging Platypus

      Jafa:
      My goodness, where have I been?The Rockets are offering everything but the kitchen sink (I think its included) for D12.

      Multiple 1st round picks
      The 3 players they just drafted in the top 20
      Kevin Martin, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris and Chandler Parsons
      Willing to take back Jason Richadson, Glen Davis and Chris Duhon

      Just wow!Two things I can’t beleive – the Rockets offering all of that for a guy who may or may not stay after this year and the Magic taking more than 3 seconds to say yes.

      Seriously! Do they really think they’re going to find a better deal then this?

    76. Brian Cronin

      Traditionally, the NBPA has been willing to compromise away rights of rookies (particularly second round picks) in order to gain more for veteran players. Since every voting member of the NBPA is already in the league and would not bear the brunt of the new restrictions on incoming players, it makes economic sense.

      Heck, forget the NBPA, I think you just described every single union ever.

    77. ess-dog

      Are we ever going to deal with Houston again after this? I really hope they pull the trade for Howard, he goes down with the bad back, signs somewhere else next year and Morey gets canned. Who else is going to hire that guy?

      Although it’s funny – since the Jeffries trade, the Rockets haven’t been able to field a team better than us.

    78. Brian Cronin

      I don’t like Camby’s talk about how glad he is to be in New York and not Miami because of the old New York/Miami rivalry. If it were true, than that’d be one thing, but it clearly is not. Dude was headed to a plane to go to Miami to sign a contract when the sign and trade deal between Houston and Miami fell apart.

    79. Z-man

      Yeah, I’m with you, ess, fuck that asshole. I can’t believe Morey is that dense that he thinks we won’t match, and won’t try to screw them in the future. What a prick.

    80. Caleb

      The Houston deal really does make you think… I mean, in general I am all for reeling in the best player… the superduperstar is the hardest guy to get. But if they take ALL of Orlando’s flotsam and give up ALL their draft picks and players, how are they in a better position than Orlando is now? Dwight won’t be happy..

      And really, Houston could offer a lot less and still have by far the best offer to Orlando. (unless the Magic want Bynum or Horford)

    81. The Raging Platypus

      ess-dog:
      Are we ever going to deal with Houston again after this?I really hope they pull the trade for Howard, he goes down with the bad back, signs somewhere else next year and Morey gets canned.Who else is going to hire that guy?

      Although it’s funny – since the Jeffries trade, the Rockets haven’t been able to field a team better than us.

      This Houston-New York history is starting to take on a bit of the same vibe as Mariners-Yankees.

    82. thenamestsam

      ess-dog:
      Are we ever going to deal with Houston again after this?I really hope they pull the trade for Howard, he goes down with the bad back, signs somewhere else next year and Morey gets canned.Who else is going to hire that guy?

      Although it’s funny – since the Jeffries trade, the Rockets haven’t been able to field a team better than us.

      I ‘ve said it before, but I really don’t understand the animosity towards Morey. I think he’s done a pretty damn good job there for the most part. He took over a mediocre team and build a very very good team that would have been title contenders except they could never get healthy. Then he spent a couple years rebuilding assets and cap space except that he was able to maintain their status as playoff contenders the entire time, and now they appear to be on the verge of acquiring another superstar. Basically it seems to me like he did the classic Boom-Bust cycle that essentially every NBA team has to go through, except that he was a bit unlucky that his boom didn’t go higher, and he has done a really nice job of keeping his bust from going very low.

      Basically to me it seems like has done such a good job that people almost take it for granted. If he had openly sucked the last three years and ended up where he is now, instead of being almost in contention the whole time, everyone would just say “Nice job of rebuilding by Morey”. But because they never blatantly sucked people basically overlook the fact that the last 3 years were rebuilding years, and give him shit that they missed the playoffs instead of being impressed at how close they were during rebuilding years. If he got fired I think about 25 other NBA teams should immediately start blowing up his cell phone.

    83. Z-man

      Quick question: do any taxpaying teams get a “rebate” on the tax they pay, i.e is it divided up only among non-taxpayers or among all teams? The larger question is: what happens to the tax money?

    84. thenamestsam

      Caleb:
      The Houston deal really does make you think… I mean, in general I am all for reeling in the best player… the superduperstar is the hardest guy to get. But if they take ALL of Orlando’s flotsam and give up ALL their draft picks and players, how are they in a better position than Orlando is now? Dwight won’t be happy..

      And really, Houston could offer a lot less and still have by far the best offer to Orlando. (unless the Magic want Bynum or Horford)

      Yeah. Howard is amazing, but that offer seems like TOO much. I think he’s gambling that Dwight mainly just wants a change of scenery, and that alone will be enough to convince him to reup, which gives Morey 5 years to let all those junk contracts expire and build a contender around Dwight. If I were him though I’d insist on keeping a few of the best assets if I’m giving up all that cap relief. If they can hold on to say Royce White and the guaranteed lottery pick, then you’ve got a start.

    85. steveoh

      All this talk about Dolan swallowing a luxury tax poison pill on this Lin contract doesn’t take into effect that the Lin contract will more than likely pay for itself.

      Stock prices for Cablevision and MSG went up when he played. Advertising rates will rise again. And that’s not even counting merchandising. With all that extra revenue coming in, I don’t think Dolan is sweating paying the luxury tax this contract will incur. And even if he doesn’t pan out on the court, that’s a $15,000,000 expiring contract in two years to send to a brand new marketplace.

      I’m sure MSG has figured out a round number for Lin’s true worth off the court. They wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t. And even if that number doesn’t quite match the $15m and luxury tax, I’m sure the bite will be taken out of it.

    86. Z-man

      I suppose it’s better than not being able to match, i.e. if the bird rights case was lost…

    87. yellowboy90

      ATL is racking up wing shooters together in Korver, Morrow, and Jenkins. I am pretty sure Williams is coming off the bench as a 2 guard so who is the odd man out?

    88. nicos

      thenamestsam: I ‘ve said it before, but I really don’t understand the animosity towards Morey. I think he’s done a pretty damn good job there for the most part. He took over a mediocre team and build a very very good team that would have been title contenders except they could never get healthy. Then he spent a couple years rebuilding assets and cap space except that he was able to maintain their status as playoff contenders the entire time, and now they appear to be on the verge of acquiring another superstar. Basically it seems to me like he did the classic Boom-Bust cycle that essentially every NBA team has to go through, except that he was a bit unlucky that his boom didn’t go higher, and he has done a really nice job of keeping his bust from going very low.

      Basically to me it seems like has done such a good job that people almost take it for granted.

      I don’t know- the moves he made his first year were awesome, since then it’s a pretty mixed bag. If they get Howard and he stays, maybe they’re back to where they were in 2006 when Morey got there. If not, they’re worse. In the NBA winning all the little deals you make doesn’t help you as much as being able to win one big one and Morey hasn’t been able to pull off anything big.

    89. Brian Cronin

      ATL is racking up wing shooters together in Korver, Morrow, and Jenkins. I am pretty sure Williams is coming off the bench as a 2 guard so who is the odd man out?

      Morrow was talking buyout as soon as he got there, so I imagine it’ll be Morrow.

    90. Brian Cronin

      Malik Rose went on a fascinating rant today on his Twitter account about all the big contracts and how ridiculous it will be when the owners once again claim poverty in a few years and the public turns on the greedy players who forced the owners to hand out these deals (I think he’s exaggerating, as the new CBA is so owner-beneficial that I doubt there will be much complaining done from the owners any time soon).

    91. BigBlueAL

      Considering the Knicks already have 2 PGs on the roster, any chance they actually let Lin leave now because of the poison pill??

    92. Caleb

      BigBlueAL:
      Considering the Knicks already have 2 PGs on the roster, any chance they actually let Lin leave now because of the poison pill??

      I’d say zero percent.

      I wouldn’t freak out about this offer – when FA began the speculation was that houston would offer 5/5/15/15… I.e. TWO years of this. So knicks are kinda getting off easy and it sort of reduces the gamble to only pay for 3 years.

      Re: morrow, he’s an atlanta guy and a former tech star, and reportedly a pal of dwight howard, so I wouldn’t count on a buyout.

    93. BigBlueAL

      I certainly hope/assume they still re-sign, Im just wondering if this really makes them think twice about doing so.

    94. nicos

      Brian Cronin: To be fair, when he did, the NBA vetoed it.

      Ha, yes that’s true though even if that trade had gone through they’d still wouldn’t have been any better off than when Morey got there (and given how gassed Gasol looked towards the end of the season, I’m not sure that he’s not glad that trade got vetoed now).

    95. garfangle

      Caleb: I’d say zero percent.

      I wouldn’t freak out about this offer – when FA began the speculation was that houston would offer 5/5/15/15… I.e. TWO years of this. So knicks are kinda getting off easy and it sort of reduces the gamble to only pay for 3 years.

      Re: morrow, he’s an atlanta guy and a former tech star, and reportedly a pal of dwight howard, so I wouldn’t count on a buyout.

      Since all contracts are guaranteed it would much matter if it were 3 or 4 years b/c if at the end of the third year Lin wasn’t worth it and they cut him, the Knicks still be on the hook for the fourth year paycheck if it were structured as the original 4 yrs/24 mil max offer.

    96. Caleb

      garfangle: Since all contracts are guaranteed it would much matter if it were 3 or 4 years b/c if at the end of the third year Lin wasn’t worth it and they cut him, the Knicks still be on the hook for the fourth year paycheck if it were structured as the original 4 yrs/24 mil max offer.

      that was never an issue – i’m saying we went into free agency expecting 4 years / $40 million, for a while we thought it would be 4 years @$29-30 million; now it looks like 3 years / $25 million.

    97. Brian Cronin

      What I don’t get is, if the Rockets are serious about going all in for Howard, then why not make the Lin contract really hard for the Knicks to match? If they want to keep Howard happy, then wouldn’t Lin play a big role in that?

    98. massive

      Anybody else feel like Grunwald is severely underrated as a GM? Considering that he’s been able to add Jeremy Lin, Steve Novak, Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Marcus Camby, and JR Smith to our core of Carmelo Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire. He would have had Steve Nash, too, if it weren’t for Colangelo. My point is that he’s done the most with the least, adding 6 above average NBA players while having zero cap space to work with, and 7 if you give him credit for the Iman Shumpert draft. All you can ask of your GM is that he gives the coach the best possible team, and it’s up to the players/coaches to make it happen. I think Grunwald has held up his end of the bargain.

      Another thing that I think deserves mentioning is that Mike Woodson is a better coach than given credit for. In his last year with the Hawks, they had the league’s #2 offense. He did that with Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith leading the team in usage. Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams, Jamal Crawford, and Mike Bibby all played more than 2,000 regular season minutes, and they had the #2 offense in the league that year.

      Our team can play defense, I think we can all agree on that. But considering that Mike Woodson + Johnson, Smith, Crawford, Horford, Williams, and Bibby = #2 offense, can you imagine what we will look like with Lin, Smith, Melo, Amar’e, Tyson, Kidd, and Novak? I’m really amped for this season to start.

    99. BigBlueAL

      Brian Cronin:
      What I don’t get is, if the Rockets are serious about going all in for Howard, then why not make the Lin contract really hard for the Knicks to match? If they want to keep Howard happy, then wouldn’t Lin play a big role in that?

      The only way to have made it worse was offering a 4th yr at 15 mil I believe for a total of 4 yr/40 mil. That wouldve been pretty damn crazy.

      BTW our favorite beat writers having a field day with the Lin offer sheet. Isola saying Knicks should let Lin leave and sign someone like DJ Augustin (Isola still hasnt gotten over Lin not playing in Game 5 despite saying he was 85% healthy) and Berman called the Fields AND Lin offer sheets ridiculous.

    100. 2FOR18

      BigBlueAL: The only way to have made it worse was offering a 4th yr at 15 mil I believe for a total of 4 yr/40 mil.That wouldve been pretty damn crazy.

      BTW our favorite beat writers having a field day with the Lin offer sheet.Isola saying Knicks should let Lin leave and sign someone like DJ Augustin (Isola still hasnt gotten over Lin not playing in Game 5 despite saying he was 85% healthy) and Berman called the Fields AND Lin offer sheets ridiculous.

      Further justification for not reading newspapers anymore. If DJ Augustin was our PG next season…..jesus….

    101. Brian Cronin

      Another thing that I think deserves mentioning is that Mike Woodson is a better coach than given credit for. In his last year with the Hawks, they had the league’s #2 offense. He did that with Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith leading the team in usage. Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams, Jamal Crawford, and Mike Bibby all played more than 2,000 regular season minutes, and they had the #2 offense in the league that year.

      A. That’s not a bad lineup, especially on offense.

      B. I don’t see how you could look at Woodson’s Hawks teams and say he is underrated coach because one time they were #2 in the league in offense. He was there six years, and in those six years, they cracked the top half of the league in either defense or offense (out of a possible twelve times) just five times. They were in single digits just once (his final year, when they were #2 on offense). The thing that always amazed me about the Hawks was not that they fired Woodson, but that they hired his replacement from within his own staff (how does that make any sense?)!

      Woodson’s Hawks teams made me frightened as hell as how Woody would coach the Knicks. Luckily, he seemed to be a different guy with the Knicks until all the injuries hit. I’m hopeful (and I think it is likely) that we’ll get that Woody next season.

    102. Brian Cronin

      My problem with Isola is that he argues like a message board poster, where much of his commentary is more about “zinging” someone he was arguing with weeks or months or even years ago. Like he has a chip on his shoulder. It leads to some very strange rhetorical choices. A lot of odd motivations drive his reporting.

    103. BigBlueAL

      Not only that Isola also mentions that if the Knicks really thought Lin was the real deal why did they try so hard to get Nash. Maybe cause he is Steve freaking Nash!!

      Oh the other options Isola apparently thinks are better than Lin are CJ Watson and John Lucas III because he was actually able to dribble across mid court vs the Heat and score 25 pts against them (he actually wrote this).

      I know Isola uses Twitter alot to troll pretty hard and he does tweet sarcastically many times but really this is pretty sad. The thing is when you see Isola on NBATV talking about the Knicks he is actually pretty rational and not stupid. The Daily News with Isola and Mitch Lawrence covering the Knicks and the NBA really is an awful paper to read now (not to mention Lupica whenever he decides to talk about the Knicks). Its gotten to the point where I like reading Berman more now and that is saying something.

    104. ruruland

      Brian Cronin: A. That’s not a bad lineup, especially on offense. B. I don’t see how you could look at Woodson’s Hawks teams and say he is underrated coach because one time they were #2 in the league in offense. He was there six years, and in those six years, they cracked the top half of the league in either defense or offense (out of a possible twelve times) just five times. They were in single digits just once (his final year, when they were #2 on offense). The thing that always amazed me about the Hawks was not that they fired Woodson, but that they hired his replacement from within his own staff (how does that make any sense?)!Woodson’s Hawks teams made me frightened as hell as how Woody would coach the Knicks. Luckily, he seemed to be a different guy with the Knicks until all the injuries hit. I’m hopeful (and I think it is likely) that we’ll get that Woody next season.

      He won’t call for pick and rolls next year though, that’s for sure.

    105. Brian Cronin

      I know Isola uses Twitter alot to troll pretty hard and he does tweet sarcastically many times but really this is pretty sad. The thing is when you see Isola on NBATV talking about the Knicks he is actually pretty rational and not stupid. The Daily News with Isola and Mitch Lawrence covering the Knicks and the NBA really is an awful paper to read now (not to mention Lupica whenever he decides to talk about the Knicks). Its gotten to the point where I like reading Berman more now and that is saying something.

      Lawrence has been brutal to read since he came to New York. Do you remember reading Lawrence during the 1990s, when he first came here, Al? He used to kill the Knicks. I remember thinking at the time, “Why is this guy covering the Knicks if he hates them so much?” And nothing has changed for him in the 20 years he’s been there. He kills them when they’re great and he kills them when they’re awful. So lame.

    106. BigBlueAL

      The person who has changed alot to me is Lupica. I used to love reading his articles in the late 90′s about the Yankees and Van Gundy’s Knicks because he seemed to genuinely like and root for them and it showed in his writing.

      Now all he does is mock them endlessly especially the Yankees ever since Torre left. I mean I can understand the Knick criticism since obviously they were a joke for close to a decade and he seemed to be reversing that trend when Walsh came aboard but ever since he left he has turned on them again.

    107. Brian Cronin

      Lupica has become precisely the thing he mocked when he was an up and coming writer in New York. The entrenched, bitter guy who plays favorites and is guided by his grudges.

      At least Lupica had a long stretch of good years. Isola has been writing like that for his whole career. ;)

      They really are all basically like internet trolls.

    108. jon abbey

      the Daily News hasn’t been worth looking at for any reason for decades, and I’m someone who read 3-4 papers a day every day for years and years.

    109. Brian Cronin

      I dunno, I think pre-National Lupica was a great columnist. He was everything he isn’t now. Funny, open to new ideas, anti-establishment. Now he is just this, well, troll.

    110. jon abbey

      yes, I agree, but that was decades ago (the National was 1990-1991, pretty sure I bought almost every one), as I said.

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