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Wednesday, April 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 06 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks adding Kidd and plan to match Lin’s 29M offer (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 08:33:42 GMT)
    Linsanity is apparently worth $29 million and now the Knicks have to decide whether Jeremy Lin is worth it.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: At Garden, it’s in with the old (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 04:50:12 GMT)
    The Knicks get Jason Kidd about 10 years too late, when he is eight months shy of his 40th birthday and can’t hack starters’ minutes anymore.

  • [New York Times] Jason Kidd Chooses Knicks Over Mavericks (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 05:39:09 GMT)
    Jason Kidd, who was set to rejoin Dallas, made a late and stunning reversal and agreed to join the Knicks instead, while Jeremy Lin agreed to an offer sheet with Houston.

  • [New York Times] Wolves Bring Roy Aboard, Hope to Add Batum (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 09:28:31 GMT)
    Brandon Roy is on his way to Minnesota to start his comeback in the same place his career began seven years ago. If Nicolas Batum has his way, he’ll soon join his former Blazers teammate on the Timberwolves.

  • [New York Times] Reports: Kidd Agrees to Join Knicks (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 06:56:26 GMT)
    The New York Knicks found their point guard to team with Jeremy Lin — or perhaps even replace him.

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Lin Agrees to Offer Sheet With Rockets (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 02:29:02 GMT)
    A person with knowledge of the deal said Thursday that New York Knicks restricted free-agent guard Jeremy Lin and the Houston Rockets have agreed to terms on a four-year contract offer.

  • [New York Times] Steve Nash Elaborates on Reasons He Chose Lakers (Fri, 06 Jul 2012 00:46:51 GMT)
    Steve Nash could have earned more money while enjoying the twilight of his remarkable NBA career in Manhattan, his offseason home. Or he could have returned to Canada, finishing up his playing days in Toronto with an eye toward national history and another career in the front office.

  • 147 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, Jul 06 2012)

    1. Z-man

      So a few weeks ago, just about everyone here thought the arbitrator would rule against us in the Bird rights case. We were lamenting over who we would get to keep out of Lin, Novak and JR, and would have to use the MLE to sign Lin but couldn’t match a poison pill type offer. Fast forward to today and we have Kidd and Lin virtually locked up on reasonable deals, still have either the MLE or a S&T available, and have Novak’s Bird rights and will probably have JR on a great deal (although I personally wouldn’t be that upset if we lost him and his dismal B-ball IQ.) The only guy we will most likely lose is Fields, who was our easiest piece to replace. Love or hate the Kidd signing, we are in so much better shape than most of us thought possible in May.

      Camby would be a great get at this point, but I’d be fine letting Jordan (and Gadzuric?) have all the back-up center minutes and rotating Jorts and Melo at the PF spot. Maybe look for another perimeter defender or catch and shoot player… In any case, I am PSYCHED about this team!!!

    2. Z-man

      If we could lose JR and get OJ Mayo w/o losing either Novak or Jordan, I’d be very happy.

    3. Frank O.

      I’m still wondering why teams haven’t made a move on sessions. I wonder if he might not be plan B if for some ridiculous reason the Knicks decide not to match Lin.
      Is sessions asking for too much? I’m a little surprised he’s taking so long to get in the mix. Is his soft playoff performance for the Lakers hurting him? Are people using that to drive down his price?
      I would love to have him in NYC. If we got rid of TD in the S&T, then we could have a backcourt of Lin, Sessions, Shump, and Kidd, which, honestly, would be sublime…

    4. JC Knickfan

      Unless use full MLE with promise to Mayo to start, I think he is out of reach. GM Glen need get ride TD S&T for Kidd. Kidd and Novak both need stay with 3m. JR doesn’t resign and probably can’t use BAE.

      Honestly keeping JR now doing S&T trade Kidd and getting another Big for mini-MLE probably would be more ideal.

      We still need another SG for Vet Min until Shump can possible play himself back into starting lineup. If and when is the big question.
      Plus hate ideal JR would start.

    5. gjknick

      Z-man: So a few weeks ago, just about everyone here thought the arbitrator would rule against us in the Bird rights case. We were lamenting over who we would get to keep out of Lin, Novak and JR, and would have to use the MLE to sign Lin but couldn’t match a poison pill type offer. Fast forward to today and we have Kidd and Lin virtually locked up on reasonable deals, still have either the MLE or a S&T available, and have Novak’s Bird rights and will probably have JR on a great deal (although I personally wouldn’t be that upset if we lost him and his dismal B-ball IQ.) The only guy we will most likely lose is Fields, who was our easiest piece to replace. Love or hate the Kidd signing, we are in so much better shape than most of us thought possible in May.

      EXACTLY! We get to keep everyone from last year except Landry. I was hoping he could come in this year and fix that shot but losing Landry is certainly not a catastrophe – some I’m sure are celebrating.

      Camby would be a great get at this point, but I’d be fine letting Jordan (and Gadzuric?) have all the back-up center minutes and rotating Jorts and Melo at the PF spot.

      I’m not sold on Camby. I figure most of the back up center minutes will be going to Amare. Chandler playing 30 to 32 a game and Amare getting the 16-18 minutes there. Hopefully, Jorts’ wrist has recovered and he can hit the 3 like he did earlier in the year to provide spacing from the 4 with Amare at the 5. If not, move Melo to the 4 with Amare at the 5 for stretches.

    6. gjknick

      I would be concerned if JR leaves – even if he was replaced by OJ. Right now we have a backcourt of Lin and Kidd at PG – strong. I could see both of them playing a few minutes a game together, but I think the idea should be to play Kidd 20 minutes or less – he is 39. At the 2 we have JR and ???? TDDWTF. I hope Toney can become a rotation player again, but that is not something I’m betting on. Shump plans on being back in Jan, but I’m not betting on that either. If TD didn’t regress into the black hole he did last year, he would be a great fit behind JR while we wait for Shump. Looking at the list of who’s available, cheap, and could be pushed aside when Shump is healthy – how about Nate Robinson! Could play beside Kidd and guard the 1 while Kidd guards the 2. He can hit the three. Sounds crazy, but maybe???

    7. Z-man

      I am hoping that Jordan and Jorts have figured out how hard they need to wotk on their bbodies and games in order to make meaningful contributions this season. Both have some very good big-man attributes. Jorts is a good rebounder and post defender but is a step slow on rotations and has virtually no offensive game other than an occasional three-ball or put-back. Optimistically, I see a bit of Oakley in him if he can ever chisel that lumpish body. Jordan has horrendous footwork, he seems to sachet around rather than make quick, decisive, athletic moves, but he is so physically imposing and has such a soft touch from the line that I would hate to give up on him. His advanced stats were very impressive. Again, busting his ass every day in the gym with a good big man coach would pay dividends. I wouldn’t just mindlessly include these guys in S&T deals for someone like Camby or Kidd.

    8. Jafa

      I think returning TD to a SG off the bench role where he does not have ball handling and decision making responsibilities and can just spot up and shoot or take one dribble and shoot will serve him well. I think he could become a rotation player again, since we have Lin and Kidd to handle PG duties.

      Please tell me Anthony Morrow will be bought out and we are going hard for him. That’s who I want our starting SG to be until Shumpert gets better.

    9. New Guy

      My first thought was Kidd should start and Lin work with the second unit.

      What good is Kidd’s ability to hit open jumpers going to be if he’s running with Novak, Jefferies, Chandler, and JR?

    10. Jafa

      New Guy:
      My first thought was Kidd should start and Lin work with the second unit.

      What good is Kidd’s ability to hit open jumpers going to be if he’s running with Novak, Jefferies, Chandler, and JR?

      Kidd shot 36.3% from the field last season. To put that in perspective, Kobe Bryant, the guy we universally agree shoots and misses too much, shot 43% from the field last season and has never shot less than 41% in his career. Lin shot 44.6% from the field last season.

      What good is Kidd’s ability to clank open jumpers going to be if he’s running with Melo, STAT and Chandler? Were better off having Jeremy Lin take those shots.

    11. gjknick

      New Guy – I think Amare would be working alot with the second unit with Kidd and Novak and Smith, while Lin would have Melo and TC. I don’t think Woodson wouldn’t start Amare, I just think I lot of his minutes will come as the second unit center. At least that’s what I would do – I really have no idea what Woodson will do – :)

    12. Kikuchiyo

      It’s a sticky quote, to be sure–”I think he’ll eventually be a starter”–when Lin has already been the starting PG.

      Listen, Old Man Tebow, we need your help, but don’t be an ass.

    13. K-hab25

      New Guy: My first thought was Kidd should start and Lin work with the second unit.What good is Kidd’s ability to hit open jumpers going to be if he’s running with Novak, Jefferies, Chandler, and JR?

      Ya I agree. Then we have Lin, Novak and eventually JR to be the core of the bench. Those three were the main scorers during the Linsanity run and now they would be our 2nd unit. Then Kidd a low volume, spot up shooter, can run the first unit without taking shots from Melo and Amare.

    14. Jafa

      Most of us probably didn’t watch the Mavs a lot last season, but we can all run the numbers on Kidd can’t we?

      TS% = Lin @ .552 vs. Kidd @ .524
      PER = Lin @ 19.9 vs. Kidd @ 13.1
      AST% = Lin @ 41.0 vs. Kidd @ 28.4
      TOV% = Lin @ 21.4 vs. Kidd @ 24.2
      WS/48 = Lin @ 0.140 vs. Kidd @ 0.104

      Only edge Kidd has is in 3PT% (35.4% vs. 32%). I mean, why isn’t this clear as night and day. Lin is 23 and improving and Kidd is 38 and declining.

      Why are we even having a conversation about Kidd starting? My conversation is still about why Kidd is here in the first place?

    15. New Guy

      Jafa, if Kidd performs like he did last year, we’re screwed. I think we’re banking on him being the player from 09-11, and those numbers are better.

    16. New Guy

      And I don’t disagree with you about “why Kidd in the first place.” I’m just thinking, now that he’s here how does he fit in best?

      Running Amar’e with the second unit is a nonstarter. He and Melo need to figure it out. Kidd is probably more conducive for that than Lin.

      We know Lin works really well with the 2nd unit. That’s probably his role this year, though he should end up closing games, too.

    17. New Guy

      Then again, long term we need to have Amar’e Melo Lin and Chandler all playing together, and the roles I suggested delays that development.

      So the Kidd signing either gave us a backup PG ill suited to play with our 2nd unit, or robs Lin of valuable playing time with the first unit.

      Either way, not thrilled with it.

    18. Jafa

      New Guy:
      Jafa, if Kidd performs like he did last year, we’re screwed.I think we’re banking on him being the player from 09-11, and those numbers are better.

      New Guy,

      I hear you, but I’m tired of us signing guys and hoping they perform the way they did 2-3 years ago. Especially old guys.

      Last season it was Mike Bibby and Baron Davis. Lets leave the old guys alone. Sign a young unproven guy and give him a one-year deal (ala Steve Novak, Extra-e). If he pans out, we give him real money. If he does not, we cut our losses. We actually did the smart thing with Bibby and Davis from a salary perspective, which is why we can move on from them easily because they did not work out.

      We are on the hook for $9 M over 3 years to a 39 year old Jason Kidd while hoping he performs they way he did when he was 36 years old. And you don’t think were already “screwed”?

    19. johnlocke

      Look at Mayo’s #s, for what he’ll command and the fact that we’re looking for a starting SG, his numbers aren’t that great and on the decline for a young player. Ray Allen would be the best option in the market right now, I’d look at Hinrich, then Foye and then Mayo in that order as better fits at the 2 for the Knicks.

      JC Knickfan:
      Unless use full MLE with promise to Mayo to start, I think he is out of reach.GM Glen need get ride TD S&T for Kidd.Kidd and Novak both need stay with 3m. JR doesn’t resign and probably can’t use BAE.

      Honestly keeping JR now doing S&T trade Kidd and getting another Big for mini-MLE probably would be more ideal.

      We still need another SG for Vet Min until Shump can possible play himself back into starting lineup. If and when is the big question.
      Plus hate ideal JR would start.

    20. TelegraphedPass

      Z-man: If we could lose JR and get OJ Mayo w/o losing either Novak or Jordan, I’d be very happy.

      Why do people think OJ Mayo is good? JR Smith is better than OJ Mayo at almost everything? Would we hate JR Smith less if he had less tattoos and deleted his twitter? Did you used to date Tahiry?

      You don’t like Earl’s shot selection, so you want OJ??? Wut????

      You guys INSIST on finding a worse version of JR Smith and paying them more.

    21. Z-man

      I don’t see a three year $9 mill deal as particularly hamstringing. I also think that a 39yo Kidd is much better than either Bibby or Baron were last year. Look, we are on the hook for $60 mill worth of Amare, Chandler and Melo for the next 3 years. Fishing around for young unproven guys to sign to 1-year deals in a “win now” situation is how GMs get fired. We got Kidd for 1/3 the price of Nash and didn’t lose any young players or draft picks in the deal (although a sign and trade is still a possibility, we don’t HAVE to do it.) And guess what? We can still pick up waived players on minimum deals if we want to (which is how we got Lin and Novak in the first place.)

      The Lakers ditched old man Fisher and signed Sessions and Blake. How did that work for them? The Thunder signed Fisher for veteran leadership and got to the finals after sweeping the Suns. How did that work out for them?

      Lin is going to get 30+ minutes and Kidd will get around 20. If Kidd sucks, he will play less. If Lin sucks or gets hurt, Kidd will play more and we’ll probably be screwed like most teams are when their main PG falters or gets hurt (see: Bulls)

      Also, I think the Lin mentorship is overblown, it’s more about Kidd teaming up with Chandler to teach Melo and Amare how to coexist and play winning basketball. He has the resume to do that. If Lin tries to get assertive to Melo and Amare, they are likely to tell the wet behind the ears kid at any point to STFU. They ain’t doing that to Kidd.

    22. TelegraphedPass

      Jafa: New Guy,I hear you, but I’m tired of us signing guys and hoping they perform the way they did 2-3 years ago. Especially old guys. Last season it was Mike Bibby and Baron Davis. Lets leave the old guys alone. Sign a young unproven guy and give him a one-year deal (ala Steve Novak, Extra-e). If he pans out, we give him real money. If he does not, we cut our losses. We actually did the smart thing with Bibby and Davis from a salary perspective, which is why we can move on from them easily because they did not work out.We are on the hook for $9 M over 3 years to a 39 year old Jason Kidd while hoping he performs they way he did when he was 36 years old. And you don’t think were already “screwed”?

      Davis was a smart pickup. It was low-risk high-reward and it didn’t work out the way we hoped. It doesn’t mean we should eschew looking at any older vets. Bibby was never supposed to get meaningful minutes anyways.

      It’s not like Baron was awful, either. Our most productive floor unit last season featured Baron Davis. (it was Davis-Shumpert-Fields-Melo-Chandler, for anyone curious)

    23. TelegraphedPass

      Z-man: If Lin tries to get assertive to Melo and Amare, they are likely to tell the wet behind the ears kid at any point to STFU. They ain’t doing that to Kidd.

      And this narrative is getting a bit overblown. It’s painted like some movie, where the talented-but-unproven kid can’t work with the egotistical superstars and there really isn’t much evidence that that is the case.

      Lin told Amar’e to eff off on multiple PnR opportunities and STAT obliged. Lin looked off Melo after Melo earned good post position on multiple occasions, most notably the time everyone pretended his following frustration was reason to panic. Afterwards, Melo was still quoted saying he wanted the ball in Lin’s hands more. Melo isn’t a moron, despite several people wanting him to be; he understands how beneficial working with Lin will be.

    24. Z-man

      On another note, I think that Lin is worth every bit of $20 mill for 3 years (last year is a team option). Who on this board would not have jumped with joy at that deal if it were possible (it wouldn’t be w/o Bird rights, Lin would be a goner, right?) This is less than we signed Felton for, isn’t it?

    25. Jafa

      Zman,

      Trading for Steve Nash is a win-now move (hence why the Lakers did it). Signing Jason Kidd is not a win-now move, its a “we don’t want to come away from this off-season empty handed so lets sign another old PG and hope the fans can’t tell the difference” move.

      And the Lakers situation is different. Signing Blake was a bad idea before they even thought about it. The got Sessions for half a year, found out he is not a quality starting PG and got lucky he opted out of his deal.

    26. Jafa

      @26:

      Telegraph (you gotta get a shorter screen name),

      What made the Davis pick-up a low risk-high reward move was his salary. Getting a guy for the minimum and for only one year was great because you could see if he was still good without spending too much money to find out. That was the low risk part of the move. We didn’t get the high reward which is why we have moved on.

      Signing Kidd, on the other hand, is high risk (price) low reward (production).

    27. JC Knickfan

      johnlocke:
      Look at Mayo’s #s, for what he’ll command and the fact that we’re looking for a starting SG, his numbers aren’t that great and on the decline for a young player. Ray Allen would be the best option in the market right now, I’d look at Hinrich, then Foye and then Mayo in that order as better fits at the 2 for the Knicks.

      I suggested Foye few times as I think he could be gotten for Vet Min. Since Mayo lost starting job, he really decline in production. Evidently show he got pretty weak psyche and more think about I think the Knicks should pass on this guy.

      Now question is will JR resign?
      If not Foye and James “I don’t know crap about” White could our be SG options.
      Rookie SG with 3pt range would be also something look in summer team.

    28. ess-dog

      Man, I can’t believe that the 6ers signed Nick Young instead of keeping Lou Williams… We should really jump on Lou. He could fill the roles of Kidd and JR in one player.

      I’m also not really on board with J. Kidd. It feels like the less he plays, the better off we’ll be, which you don’t want to feel after a signing. Sure he’s better than Bibby, but Bibby was a vet min. guy who didn’t assume he would start. And knowing Woodson, he’ll probably have a quick trigger with Lin and we’ll see a lot of Kidd.

      I’m just eager to get Lin back in the fold and hope he starts and plays a lot.

    29. Jafa

      Z-man:
      On another note, I think that Lin is worth every bit of $20 mill for 3 years (last year is a team option). Who on this board would not have jumped with joy at that deal if it were possible (it wouldn’t be w/o Bird rights, Lin would be a goner, right?) This is less than we signed Felton for, isn’t it?

      I would have given him 3 years and $25 M. I would have gone as high as $30 M. From a business perspective, the guy makes more money for the Knicks than our 3 stars combined, and more than enough to pay any luxury tax you incur by paying him an extra $10 M.

    30. Z-man

      TelegraphedPass: to be; he understands how beneficial working with Lin will be.
      TelegraphedPass

      Yeah, just like Ewing never told Starks to f–k off. You really think that Lin has the balls to overrule Melo and STAT if things get heated? Don’t mistake what you saw during 25 games (most of which were either without Amare or Melo) in the middle of the season for what can happen during an 82 game season.

      Also, what if Lin regresses the way that Fields did and starts shooting 28% from 3 and averaging 6 turnovers a game? I would expect that Lin is going to have at least one 15-20 game stretch where things don’t go his way. You want Scott Machado to be the answer when that happens?

    31. ess-dog

      Wow, never mind! Sounds like the 6ers will amnesty Brand (and probably match anything for Lou.) Kind of a weird move to get Nick Young.

    32. Jafa

      ess-dog:
      Wow, never mind!Sounds like the 6ers will amnesty Brand (and probably match anything for Lou.)Kind of a weird move to get Nick Young.

      Why didn’t they try to trade him? He is an expiring contract right?

    33. Jafa

      The Kidd move is a sign-and-trade:

      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222101/Knicks_Mavericks_Discussing_Jason_Kidd_Sign_And_Trade

      Wonder who will be included for the opportunity to bring this old guy here? Maybe some young player who could develop into capable back-ups in the future?

      Uggh! Beck even says that “Landing Kidd takes some of the sting out of losing Steve Nash to the Los Angeles Lakers a day earlier. It also gives the publicity-minded Knicks a modest boost after they watched the Nets celebrate Deron Williams’s decision to stay with the team when it moves to Brooklyn. ”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/sports/basketball/kidd-is-heading-to-the-knicks.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

      This is why we are signing a 39 year old to 3 years and $9.7 million? To win the PR game? That’s what we do now instead of building a better ball club?

    34. thenamestsam

      Brand being amnestied is an interesting situation. He could really help a contender (Miami the most likely candidate) if he slips through the amnesty pool, but someone will almost definitely place a bid for him. No team with a serious shot is under the cap, so he’s unlikely to be a really important piece. Bit of a weird decision for them. Amnestied their one semblance of interior scoring so they could add to their endless collection of wings. Have to wonder if a trade is coming (something like Igoudala for Gasol?).

    35. jon abbey

      Jafa:
      This is why we are signing a 39 year old to 3 years and $9.7 million?To win the PR game?That’s what we do now instead of building a better ball club?

      just because Beck says it doesn’t mean that it’s actually true. not sure why he gets so much respect here, I think he’s kind of a hack (although anyone looks good next to Isola and Berman).

    36. Jafa

      jon abbey: this is bad reporting by you, that’s not what that link says. it says they’re “working on it”, which means it could happen or not still.

      Oops! I apologize and own up to that. Glad I’m not a reporter by profession.

    37. Z-man

      The question is: Can we get a piece more valuable for the next 2 years than Jorts and/or Jordan with the mini MLE, or in another S&T? I hate to admit it, but we probably can.

    38. Z-man

      Dumb question: can Balkman’s contract theoretically be used in a sign and trade? Not that anyone would want it even if it were possible…

    39. Brian Cronin

      Dumb question: can Balkman’s contract theoretically be used in a sign and trade? Not that anyone would want it even if it were possible…

      No.

    40. 2FOR18

      Jafa:
      Zman,

      Trading for Steve Nash is a win-now move (hence why the Lakers did it).Signing Jason Kidd is not a win-now move, its a “we don’t want to come away from this off-season empty handed so lets sign another old PG and hope the fans can’t tell the difference” move.

      And the Lakers situation is different.Signing Blake was a bad idea before they even thought about it.The got Sessions for half a year, found out he is not a quality starting PG and got lucky he opted out of his deal.

      Who do you want the Knicks sign that would take 3mil?

    41. Frank

      Jafa: Signing Kidd, on the other hand, is high risk (price) low reward (production).

      I still can’t figure out how signing Jason Kidd is a high risk of anything. This is a BACKUP PG we are talking about. Other backup PGs in the league: CJ Watson, John Lucas, Keyon Dooling, Steve Blake, Ish Smith, etc. etc. And even CJ Watson made $3MM last year. (I think CJ’s pretty good by the way).

      There is no doubt that Kidd is declining, but what’s the worst he can play? At WORST, he will still play much better than the combination of Baron/Bibby/TD played last year. The most likely scenario in my mind is this:

      15 min/game
      TS 52-54%
      Per 36 averages – 5 rebounds, 7 assists
      3P% 35%

      He remains one of the best rebounding guards in the game, especially at the defensive end. In fact, he had the same or better DRR as Robin Lopez, Ryan Anderson, Pekovic, Luol Deng, Rudy Gay, Tyler Hansbrough. And we were not a particularly good defensive rebounding team last year (12th).

      If we can’t pull off a s&t for him, then we can still use those same assets to do a s&t for someone else.

      On top of that, it’s nice that he understands and is embracing the role of backup PG and mentor. I really don’t think we need a Tebow/Sanchez situation here – enough of a circus as it is.

      I just can’t understand the negative feelings here for this. It’s not our money he’s going to be making, and it has zero repercussions on our financial flexibility (which = zero with or without Kidd).

    42. Caleb

      Brand would be fantastic if he’d take the mini-MLE (if kidd is a trade) but I bet brand lands in miami – he and riley always had a thing. Unless he goes to the lakers. Do they have the miniMLE?

      I kinda hate the kidd dollars but least we’re making 9. Mistakes and not 50m mistakes. And depending what our options were it might not even be a real mistake.

      Not sure why people keep calling JK a shooter, tho – he was awful (as a shooter) for most of his career – upgraded to mediocre the past few years.

    43. 2FOR18

      Jafa:
      Wolves fighting hard to sign Batum:

      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222108/Wolves_Considered_Offering_Derrick_Williams_Webster_In_Batum_Sign_And_Trade

      I remember when Derrick Williams said he thought he should be the number 1 pick in that draft and that he was the best player.Now he is not even enough of a trade chip to convince Portland to part with their 2nd or 3rd best player.

      Derrick Williams got drafted by a team with a guy named Kevin Love on it, and so his opportunities were limited. He also plays on the same team that took 3 years to give Love starter’s minutes. Williams was 20 last year and averaged 15/8 per 36.

    44. thenamestsam

      Caleb:
      Brand would be fantastic if he’d take the mini-MLE (if kidd is a trade) but I bet brand lands in miami – he and riley always had a thing. Unless he goes to the lakers. Do they have the miniMLE?

      Remember that every team with cap space gets a crack at him on the waiver wire before he can become a free agent. I’m sure his agent will try to posture about how he won’t play for a team that picks him up on waivers, but ultimately I think he’s too good for no one to put in a bid.

    45. massive

      I’d love to get Brand here. He gives us some really good PF insurance if Amar’e goes down. In fact, he’s outperformed Amar’e in WS/48 these past season two seasons, and he probably fits better with Woodson’s coaching style. Having Smith, Novak, and Brand come off the bench would be great.

      This whole starting SG thing is taking a little too long to sort out. Why hasn’t there been any noise on that front as of yet?

    46. Frank

      Caleb:
      Brand would be fantastic if he’d take the mini-MLE (if kidd is a trade) but I bet brand lands in miami – he and riley always had a thing. Unless he goes to the lakers. Do they have the miniMLE?

      I kinda hate the kidd dollars but least we’re making 9. Mistakes and not 50m mistakes. And depending what our options were it might not even be a real mistake.

      Not sure why people keep calling JK a shooter, tho – he was awful (as a shooter) for most of his career – upgraded to mediocre the past few years.

      Re: JK’s shooting – he’s become a much better set 3 point shooter in the last 10 years. And I saw something on Twitter that he has hit more 3 pointers in his career than Jordan, Bird, and Durant COMBINED.

      Re: Brand – he’d be great no matter where he went for the price that a team will ultimately pay for him. He’s a NY kid so hopefully he’d want to come here. But I think it’s highly doubtful he gets through the amnesty waiver process. Doesn’t Houston need a PF? They only have 10.

    47. thenamestsam

      2FOR18: Derrick Williams got drafted by a team with a guy named Kevin Love on it, and so his opportunities were limited.He also plays on the same team that took 3 years to give Love starter’s minutes.Williamswas 20 last year and averaged 15/8 per 36.

      Agreed. If I were a GM of a team who matched up with them I’d be clamoring to get my hands on him. Making the #2 pick available after one mildly disappointing season in which he didn’t really get to play his natural position and had limited opportunities feels like a huge mistake to me. I don’t love his game but he clearly has talent.

    48. 2FOR18

      I kind of like Jodie Meeks to help as a shooter off the bench if he’ll take the mini MLE

    49. diehardknickerbocker

      gjknick:
      I would be concerned if JR leaves – even if he was replaced by OJ. Right now we have a backcourt of Lin and Kidd at PG – strong. I could see both of them playing a few minutes a game together, but I think the idea should be to play Kidd 20 minutes or less – he is 39. At the 2 we have JR and ???? TDDWTF. I hope Toney can become a rotation player again, but that is not something I’m betting on. Shump plans on being back in Jan, but I’m not betting on that either. If TD didn’t regress into the black hole he did last year, he would be a great fit behind JR while we wait for Shump. Looking at the list of who’s available, cheap, and could be pushed aside when Shump is healthy – how about Nate Robinson! Could play beside Kidd and guard the 1 while Kidd guards the 2. He can hit the three. Sounds crazy, but maybe???

      we should try to get lou williams, philly doesn’t want him back

    50. massive

      Lou Williams ?@TeamLou23

      Philly, I appreciate you all. Unfortunately I will not be coming back, as an organization they decided to move in a different direction.

      I know it’s probably impossible to get him, but Philadelphia just let go of Lou and Brand? They probably think they have a shot at Howard or something. Still, I wonder what he gets/where he ends up. I’d love if he ended up here.

    51. Z

      A) why did the 6ers amnesty Brand? Who are they clearing space for, Nick Young??

      B) if Brand s claimed, he gets paid his current salary, or some percentage of it, or is he given a brand new 1 year contract based on the waiver claim? (and no bird rights with new team, right?)

      C) seems the chances of landing with the Knicks is closer to none than to slim, correct?

    52. Brian Cronin

      This whole starting SG thing is taking a little too long to sort out. Why hasn’t there been any noise on that front as of yet?

      Because the Knicks can’t force JR Smith to take the $2.8 million. They have to let him see what the market brings. If nothing develops for him for the MLE, then he’ll return. But the Knicks have no control over how long that will take, so they have to wait.

    53. TelegraphedPass

      thenamestsam: Agreed. If I were a GM of a team who matched up with them I’d be clamoring to get my hands on him. Making the #2 pick available after one mildly disappointing season in which he didn’t really get to play his natural position and had limited opportunities feels like a huge mistake to me. I don’t love his game but he clearly has talent.

      “Muahahaha” -Michael Beasley

    54. Frank

      Brian Cronin: Because the Knicks can’t force JR Smith to take the $2.8 million. They have to let him see what the market brings. If nothing develops for him for the MLE, then he’ll return. But the Knicks have no control over how long that will take, so they have to wait.

      That’s what this talk about Randy Foye feels like – a backup plan in case JR walks. As it is right now, we have lots of guards – Lin, Kidd, presumably JR, Shump, maybe TD if he’s not traded. Not sure that we could ever play more than 4 guards in a game, so adding Foye to that group of 4-5 seems a little excessive.

      I have a feeling that Novak will get a contract averaging $5M/year – if I’m Grunwald I make it a 3 year deal for a flat $5M/year with that last year a team option. Not sure Novak will accept that, but it’s unlikely he’s getting more than the mini-MLE from anyone else. JR, if he stays, will probably get that 20% raise at $2.8M with another player option year, then re-sign next summer for full MLE-type money either with us or someone else. I’m really not sure that any team that has the MLE would spend it on JR at this point. The bad poor teams like Sac don’t want his baggage, and the supposedly well-run teams under the cap (Dallas/Hou) probably don’t think he’s worth the full MLE.

    55. TelegraphedPass

      Stein reports that sources claim the Mavs have already expressed interest in the amnestied Elton Brand.

    56. Brian Cronin

      The Sixers’ moves make a little more sense now that I’ve seen a rumor that they’re talking about dealing Iggy for Calderon and DeRozan. That makes the Nick Young signing make more sense.

    57. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin: Because the Knicks can’t force JR Smith to take the $2.8 million. They have to let him see what the market brings. If nothing develops for him for the MLE, then he’ll return. But the Knicks have no control over how long that will take, so they have to wait.

      I think once we get to the 11th, guys will start to sign up quickly, hopefully including Smith.

    58. TelegraphedPass

      Brian Cronin: The Sixers’ moves make a little more sense now that I’ve seen a rumor that they’re talking about dealing Iggy for Calderon and DeRozan. That makes the Nick Young signing make more sense.

      Are they trying to slide Young or DeRozan to the three? I’m not sure I see either being very successful. Also, the Raps may leave the summer with Kyle Lowry AND Andre Iguodala??? To go with Bargs, Val, and the immortal Amir Johnson? Unreal.

    59. Brian Cronin

      Are they trying to slide Young or DeRozan to the three? I’m not sure I see either being very successful. Also, the Raps may leave the summer with Kyle Lowry AND Andre Iguodala??? To go with Bargs, Val, and the immortal Amir Johnson? Unreal.

      I imagine that yes, Young will be the 3. He’s played it before. DeRozan will either start at the 2 or Turner will start at the 2.

      Calderon/Holliday
      Turner/DeRozan
      N. Young
      T. Young
      Hawes/Allen

      That is a young team with some real upside. Plus they’re apparently also trying to get Ilyasova, which makes no sense to me (where is the money coming from?) but, well, that’s apparently what they’re trying to do. If they somehow pull that off, they’d be a really good team.

    60. Z-man

      So, right now, assuming Lin is matched and Kid signs to MMLE, plus JR, Novak and rookie/minimum guys are back (except Bibby and Baron):

      STAT
      Melo
      Chandler
      Lin
      Kidd
      Shump
      White
      TD
      Jeffries
      Jordan
      Jorts
      JR
      Novak
      Gadzuric

      Is that about right?

    61. Brian Cronin

      Yes, except I wonder if Gadzuric will even make the team this season if he is not traded before the year starts. And I really think the Knicks will do their sign and trade deal with some player, in which case they’re going to need to sign a third-string point guard. Mike James, anyone?

      I like the four J’s in a row there.

      There is definitely room to improve on that roster with vet minimum guys.

    62. Caleb

      If the sixers trade iggy for calderon and derozan that will be one of the 5 worst trades of the 21st century.

    63. Brian Cronin

      How in the fuck does Jeff Green get a 4 year/$40 million contract?! The dude has not done anything in the league yet! How do you get $40 million just on potential alone? So weird.

      And yeah, it sounds like the Mavs and Brand are a perfect fit. Do note, though, that teams that pick up a guy on amnesty waivers do acquire the Bird Rights of that player, if applicable. So the Mavs would gain Brand’s Bird Rights. With that ruling in place, expect to see a bigger fight for amnestied players going forward.

    64. 2FOR18

      Caleb:
      If the sixers trade iggy for calderon and derozan that will be one of the 5 worst trades of the 21st century.

      That was pretty much my initial reaction.

    65. Z-man

      Thanks, Brian. I think either Kidd’s deal will be a S&T which will open up a couple of spots, or they will ultimately do a S&T for someone else (Camby? OJ? Morrow?) Anyone see a “realistic” way to improve the rotation beyond that? The Spaniard?

    66. thenamestsam

      Caleb:
      If the sixers trade iggy for calderon and derozan that will be one of the 5 worst trades of the 21st century.

      I’m legitimately mystified by this one too. I thought Iggy’s value was much higher than that. Calderon is a decent player with a horrid contract, and Derozan’s mostly just a chucker. I understand why they’re trying to reshuffle that team because they were seemingly stuck at the level they were at, but that is not the way to do it.

      Toronto could be headed in a very interesting direction however. They have a whole bunch of interesting pieces and the core of a quite nice team. Not sure they’ll be able to take the leap to being any more than interesting unless this European kid turns into a star, but Colangelo is making some nice moves finally.

    67. JC Knickfan

      I guess Toronto think Fields will be there starting SG especially if they actually get Iggy.

      I presume Toronto will be including draft picks to Philly also.

    68. Caleb

      Brian Cronin: I imagine that yes, Young will be the 3. He’s played it before. DeRozan will either start at the 2 or Turner will start at the 2.

      Calderon/Holliday
      Turner/DeRozan
      N. Young
      T. Young
      Hawes/Allen

      That is a young team with some real upside. Plus they’re apparently also trying to get Ilyasova, which makes no sense to me (where is the money coming from?) but, well, that’s apparently what they’re trying to do. If they somehow pull that off, they’d be a really good team.

      Brian, I’ll take the under. If that toronto deal goes thru the sixers will have done a big talent dump from a team that was barely over .500 in the first place.

      At least they’ll be young!

    69. Nick C.

      I don’t get Philly at all. That roster looks like lottery material through 2020.

      As for the NYK from the lists put up there does JR start at 2 or is that a free agent to be determined? If Shump were here it is a moot point. TD should be 5th guard at best. Frontcourt backups: Novak, Jefferies, Jorts and Jordan. I know our bench, particularly Jared and Novak, had their moments last season, but looking at it is very uninspiring.

    70. JK47

      Brian Cronin: I imagine that yes, Young will be the 3. He’s played it before. DeRozan will either start at the 2 or Turner will start at the 2.

      Calderon/Holliday
      Turner/DeRozan
      N. Young
      T. Young
      Hawes/Allen

      That is a young team with some real upside. Plus they’re apparently also trying to get Ilyasova, which makes no sense to me (where is the money coming from?) but, well, that’s apparently what they’re trying to do. If they somehow pull that off, they’d be a really good team.

      There are some good players in there, but which of those guys is going to be anything more than a solid rotation player? It’s a young team but it’s a mediocre young team.

    71. thenamestsam

      @Nick C.

      Agreed on the frontcourt depth. That should be priority #1 right now. Our team can be very strong next year, but it could also fall apart in the front court. Amare and Tyson are both injury prone, and the depth, as you pointed out, is less than inspiring.

      Novak was amazing last year, but these 3 point guys can turn into pumpkins quickly (look at our very own Extra E). At 47% on 3s he’s a hugely valuable bench player. At 37% he probably shouldn’t see the floor except a couple minutes a night on a good team. I also think because he can’t shoot on the move a big part of his efecctiveness last year was that people just weren’t prepared for him. He snuck up on the league for a while when teams just weren’t prepared for NOT HELPING OFF HIM. We saw what Miami was able to do to him, and he didn’t seem to be having the same impact at the end of the year even before that. I’m not sure he’s going to have the same kind of impact next year.

      Then you have Jeffries (also seemingly always hurt), and then you’re down to the dregs of Jorts and Jordan. I like both those guys and they have talent, but neither has proven anything. I’d be much more comfortable with 1 more frontcourt player who I know is NBA quality. Getting Camby for the $3M would be huge.

    72. Z

      thenamestsam: . Calderon is a decent player with a horrid contract…

      It is pretty weird. But Calderon’s contract expires next year, so it’s not horrible. It’s Brand’s contract but taking up 8,000,000 less cap room for a player they, presumably, value more.

      Raps taking advantage of some pretty weird moves by 6ers and Rockets. (Good job saving face after the Landry Fields debacle:)

    73. Z-man

      @79 I pretty much agree. A couple of things: first, is it a given that Amare will not have back surgery? second, what’s up with Jared’s knee? Did he get it fixed?

      We need frontcourt depth, but if we can’t get a solid rotation player like Camby, I’d rather chance it with what we have.

    74. JK47

      I’d like to add another SG who can knock down the three, like an Anthony Morrow, and a passable PF like JJ Hickson.

    75. yellowboy90

      Z-man:
      @79 I pretty much agree.A couple of things: first, is it a given that Amare will not have back surgery? second, what’s up with Jared’s knee? Did he get it fixed?

      We need frontcourt depth, but if we can’t get a solid rotation player like Camby, I’d rather chance it with what we have.

      Regarding Jared’s knee I think I read he got the Kobe surgery.

    76. Frank

      I’d like to see Shawne Williams back now that he’s been bought out by Portland. He obviously had a bad year last year (injuries?) but his passable D on 4′s and smaller 5′s and corner 3 shooting would be great for us.

    77. JC Knickfan

      Both Amare, JJ and TC had injuries last year. When season starts, they all will be 30 or over. Jerome Jordan in limited playing time looked serviceable, but I think we must get another big-man.

      Based last year I’m thumbs down on Jort being the rotation.

    78. TelegraphedPass

      Z-man: Hickson would ctually be perfect, any realistic chance of that happening?

      Hickson is so similar to Amar’e. This suggestion is kind of funny to me. I would prefer a rebounder/defender.

    79. Brian Cronin

      Hickson would ctually be perfect, any realistic chance of that happening?

      He played so well for Potland that I find it hard to believe that they’d let him go, especially as they have Early Bird rights on him.

    80. Brian Cronin

      I’d like to see Shawne Williams back now that he’s been bought out by Portland. He obviously had a bad year last year (injuries?) but his passable D on 4?s and smaller 5?s and corner 3 shooting would be great for us.

      I’d definitely welcome a return engagement of Extra E.

    81. Z-man

      Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have Camby. I also have some faith in Woodson getting the guys to commit more to D in general. Nice to have a big body that can bang doen low and score off the bench, especially when you have non-scorers like Chandler and Jeffries.

    82. Frank

      Z-man: especially when you have non-scorers like Chandler and Jeffries.

      man are you just itching for a fight with THCJ?

    83. Frank O.

      Anybody think Kidd making the backhanded comment that Lin would be a starter in this league some day was all about him trying to drive him out of NY so he’s running the show?
      I mean, why wouldn’t Lin want to start after what he did last year? The Rockets clearly would make him a starter.
      I am mystified by the idiocy of Kidd’s comment.

      Was my comment early about Sessions silly? No one responded. Does anyone know why Sessions isn’t being strongly considered?

    84. Frank

      From all indications Kidd knows he is coming here to be a backup PG and mentor. I wouldn’t really read anything into it. I think he was basically saying that Lin has lots of skill and just needs seasoning.

      Kidd has never been the most eloquent speaker – I highly doubt that on day -5 of his Knick career, he’s already throwing darts at his teammates.

    85. Z

      Frank:

      Kidd has never been the most eloquent speaker – I highly doubt that on day -5 of his Knick career, he’s already throwing darts at his teammates.

      Funny and true. (I’d “retweet” this if I could:)

    86. TelegraphedPass

      Frank O.: Anybody think Kidd making the backhanded comment that Lin would be a starter in this league some day was all about him trying to drive him out of NY so he’s running the show?I mean, why wouldn’t Lin want to start after what he did last year? The Rockets clearly would make him a starter.I am mystified by the idiocy of Kidd’s comment. Was my comment early about Sessions silly? No one responded. Does anyone know why Sessions isn’t being strongly considered?

      Sessions just isn’t as great as his box score, to me. Mostly because his is and always has been a truly horrendous defender. He’s also not a great shooter and not a dominant PnR player, so I’m unsure how he fits on this roster.

    87. Frank O.

      TelegraphedPass: Sessions just isn’t as great as his box score, to me. Mostly because his is and always has been a truly horrendous defender. He’s also not a great shooter and not a dominant PnR player, so I’m unsure how he fits on this roster.

      I was seeing him as a back up to Lin with Kidd playing the deuce as a back up and occasional point…

    88. BigBlueAL

      Wasnt that comment by Kidd about Lin made after they lost to the Knicks last season?? The only comments Ive seen by Kidd since he has joined the Knicks was to a Dallas paper and that comment about Lin wasnt mentioned.

    89. BigBlueAL

      I expect for Kidd to come into training camp hopefully in great shape and wanting to start but thats alot different than him saying/thinking he should start because Lin isnt good enough to start.

    90. BigBlueAL

      Apparently Kidd was on NY sports radio today. On Twitter Ian Begley tweeted quotes from Kidd:

      Kidd on @espnnewyork 98.7 says he wanted to come to NY to ‘help Lin’ and says #Knicks have pieces to win.

      Kidd on @ESPNNY98_7FM says he doesn’t care about starting or coming off bench but wants to play the final 6 minutes of the game.

      Also looks like he was on WFAN earlier today too. Best tidbit Ive picked up from that interview is Kidd apparently saying he will wear #5 with the Knicks lol

    91. thenamestsam

      According to Hahn Kidd says he doesn’t care about starting but wants to play the final 6 minutes. I don’t think it’s going to happen. Certainly not once Shump is healthy and in most cases I’d play JR over him too (unless it’s a particular defensive matchup that’s good for Kidd). He still sounds like a guy who may not be entirely clear on what he’s being brought here to do. He’s a pure bench player.

    92. BigBlueAL

      Kidd just apparently said he can play 20-25 mins a night. So I guess he isnt that delusional lol

    93. jon abbey

      Marc J. Spears ?@SpearsNBAYahoo

      NYK and MIA leaders in comp to land HOU C Marcus Camby with either $3m mini mid or Sign-N-Trade, source tells Y! SA,DAL, HOU also interested

    94. JK47

      Please please please let us have Marcus Camby. We’d be able to have a sick rim protector on the floor at all times.

    95. chrisk06811

      If we can sign extra e, how cool would a 2nd unit of Lin, JR, Novak, Extra E and the late Manute Bol* be? it would rain down 3′s like an arcade game.

      *Apologies to the Bol family for Manute’s inclusion in this joke, which is weak at best, but I was unsure how to spell “Schrempf”

    96. chrisk06811

      thenamestsam:
      According to Hahn Kidd says he doesn’t care about starting but wants to play the final 6 minutes. I don’t think it’s going to happen. Certainly not once Shump is healthy and in most cases I’d play JR over him too (unless it’s a particular defensive matchup that’s good for Kidd). He still sounds like a guy who may not be entirely clear on what he’s being brought here to do. He’s a pure bench player.

      Any future hall of famer just 1 yr removed from a title should be saying this. it just means he’s a competitor.

    97. Z

      chrisk06811:
      If we can sign extra e, how cool would a 2nd unit of Lin, JR, Novak, Extra E and the late Manute Bol* be?it would rain down 3?s like an arcade game.

      *Apologies to the Bol family for Manute’s inclusion in this joke, which is weak at best, but I was unsure how to spell “Schrempf”

      Don’t we still own the rights to Brad Lohaus? :)

    98. Z-man

      I know Kidd is old, but he isn’t necessarily washed up. Stocton was still very good at 40. Kidd is not going to stay in front of Westbrook and Rose, but he is certainly savvy enough to be a net positive on the court at most times. Also, Kidd is super competitive and probably knows the NY media and fans mean business. If he just wanted to coast, he could have stayed in Dallas for the same money, or gone to lots of other teams. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until November.

    99. Robtachi

      Jafa: Kidd shot 36.3% from the field last season.To put that in perspective, Kobe Bryant, the guy we universally agree shoots and misses too much, shot 43% from the field last season and has never shot less than 41% in his career.Lin shot 44.6% from the field last season.

      What good is Kidd’s ability to clank open jumpers going to be if he’s running with Melo, STAT and Chandler?Were better off having Jeremy Lin take those shots.

      Oh my god, are you kidding me? Please tell me you’re aware that Jason Kidd attempted almost exclusively all three-pointers. So yes, he shot 36%. From three. I’ll take that.

      2FOR18: Derrick Williams got drafted by a team with a guy named Kevin Love on it, and so his opportunities were limited.He also plays on the same team that took 3 years to give Love starter’s minutes.Williamswas 20 last year and averaged 15/8 per 36.

      Yeah, geez, I’d be more than happy if the Knicks took Derrick Williams off Minny’s hands.

    100. Robtachi

      How much is Lou Williams going to get? Sixers apparently felt he wasn’t worth around $5mil. Can he expect to get that as a FA? If the Knicks used their S&T capabilities on him to get him a decent salary, wouldn’t he be a great option for instant offense off the bench and be able to contribute valuable second unit minutes at both the 1 and 2? The kid really knows how to stroke the ball from deep and has one of the lowest turnover rates in the league despite pretty high usage. How’s his defense? Wouldn’t a guard rotation of Lin/Kidd/Lou/Shump look really, really awesome? If it means letting J.R. walk, then the Knicks should extend the courtesy of padding the door so it doesn’t hit him on the ass on the way out.

    101. jon abbey

      isn’t JR way better on D than Williams?

      here’s a small example of my problem with Beck, from the Lin piece he just posted:

      “Lin is probably not a top-10 point guard, but could he be in the top 15? Top 20? Or in the bottom 10? Even the true believers are not sure. ”

      there’s a big difference between 21-30 and “the bottom 10″. at the least, it’s worded poorly, but even the 30th best PG in the league has some real value, I’d think, especially since some teams have two guys ahead of that.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/sports/basketball/uncertain-about-his-value-knicks-expected-to-match-jeremy-lins-offer.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

      FWIW, I think Lin is around 15-20, with maybe upside to 10-15. as I said all during Linsanity last year, it’s crucial to keep his minutes down, maybe to 28 or 30 per game, so hopefully Kidd can stay healthy and do that.

    102. massive

      I don’t know that adding Lou would mean JR walks. We don’t have a starting 2 or a back-up 3 at the moment.

    103. JK47

      “Lin is probably not a top-10 point guard, but could he be in the top 15? Top 20? Or in the bottom 10? Even the true believers are not sure.”

      Lin had a .140 WS/48 in 940 minutes last year, with a .552 TS%. His assist percentage was 41.0. He was also essentially a rookie, with his first prolonged minutes at a level higher than the Ivy League and he’s still only 23.

      If he is able to play the way he did last year, but for a full season, he’ll already be a borderline top 10 PG. If he is able to actually improve somewhat on his results from this past season he’ll be a top 10 PG, no questions asked.

    104. StatsTeacher

      There has been no noise here about Rush for SG, so I’ll make some. He is a 41% 3 point shooter and plays defense. He is a HUGE upgrade over Fields. He is a RFA, but GS (as I have said a few times) is usually out in left field, and they have a bunch of wing players. Make him an offer!!!

      IMHO then the Knicks have a real shot if they land him.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4475

    105. JK47

      Obviously Ray Allen is a great shooter but does he really add that much marginal value to the Heat? They seem to have a lot of guys whose job is to camp out at the 3-point line and drain 3′s.

      Oh well, whatever. He’ll probably shoot .700 from 3 this year. FML.

    106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Robtachi: Oh my god, are you kidding me? Please tell me you’re aware that Jason Kidd attempted almost exclusively all three-pointers. So yes, he shot 36%. From three. I’ll take that.

      Hey man, you should listen to jon abbey when he says that eFG% and TS% are near-worthless stats. Let the guy use the stats that best supports his argument that Kidd’s a lousy shooter. That’s what this board is all about.

    107. Z

      massive:
      I don’t know that adding Lou would mean JR walks. We don’t have a starting 2 or a back-up 3 at the moment.

      Williams is better than Smith in every statistical category that matters for guards.

      And he KILLS Nick Young across the board. Philly is crazy.

      As the SG market goes, Nick Young got 1 year, $6 mil; Crawford 4 years, $25 mil; Ray Allen presumably gets the Mini from the Heat of at least 2 seasons at $3 mil/year. Here’s what’s out there:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=willilo02&y1=2012&p2=gomesry01&y2=2012&p3=smithjr01&y3=2012&p4=mayooj01&y4=2012&p5=morroan01&y5=2012&p6=robinna01&y6=2012

      (the only way JR Smith is a good option is because he HAS to come cheap)

    108. hoolahoop

      Jason Kidd was one of the all time best PG’s to play in the NBA, and plays with off the charts basketball IQ. One problem. He’s going to be forty. While the league is getting younger and faster, the knicks are going old and slow. To justify his signing by saying he’s better than Bibby and BD is the wrong point of view. Imagine Kidd guarding Norris Cole, let alone Westbrook. It may be good for a laugh, but that’s about it. His days of establishing order on the court and commanding Melo and Amare are behind him. He’s become a dribble down court and dump off passer. Knicks are going nowhere as they are currently constructed.

    109. JK47

      “Williams is better than Smith in every statistical category that matters for guards.”

      Career TS%
      JR Smith .544
      Lou Williams .532

      Career eFG%
      JR Smith .513
      Lou Williams .466

      Career 3PT%
      JR Smith .369
      Lou Williams .337

      Well, maybe not EVERY category.

    110. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Hey man, you should listen to jon abbey when he says that eFG% and TS% are near-worthless stats. Let the guy use the stats that best supports his argument that Kidd’s a lousy shooter. That’s what this board is all about.

      huh? he didn’t use either of those, and he wasn’t answering me, I thought he made a good point. it’s cute that you think about me a lot, though, shmoopie.

      Ray Allen to the Heat, it didn’t make too much sense for him to go back to Boston with Bradley and Terry both there.

    111. Z

      JK47:

      Well, maybe not EVERY category.

      Ha, nice catch. (I still had the Young/Williams comparison up when I wrote that:)

      Still, even at a higher price, I’d rather have Williams than Smith, if it could be accomplished under the cap restraints.

    112. Z-man

      Smith was crazy on O, but I have to admit he hustled in a bone-headed way on D. What does Lou give you on D?

    113. JK47

      I’d rather have Smith than Lou Williams, only because JR has shown in the past that he can be both an efficient offensive player and a really harassing defender. If he can play offense like he did in any of his .575+ TS% seasons AND play defense like he did last year, that’s a hell of a guard right there.

      I’m a big fan of JR; I think he has a monster season or two in him somewhere.

    114. ruruland

      Z: Ha, nice catch. (I still had the Young/Williams comparison up when I wrote that:)

      Still, even at a higher price, I’d rather have Williams than Smith, if it could be accomplished under the cap restraints.

      Why?

    115. ruruland

      JK47:
      I’d rather have Smith than Lou Williams, only because JR has shown in the past that he can be both an efficient offensive player and a really harassing defender.If he can play offense like he did in any of his .575+ TS% seasons AND play defense like he did last year, that’s a hell of a guard right there.

      I’m a big fan of JR; I think he has a monster season or two in him somewhere.

      Exactly. Despite troughs in ts remained elite spot up shooters through rough years…….

      If you’re only concerned about his bottom Line efficiency ask him to play like Novak….but u want his playmaking skills…..sometimes that means he’s going to have the ball in his hands in tough situation (step back mid range)….

      But you’ll see a ignificant drop in Ido next year replaced with assisted attempts….575 ts is definitely possible… In combination with his defense and versatility that borderline all star

    116. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      Smith can guard three positions, Williams can only guard one.

      Williams is a subpar defender and even less disciplined offensively, never mind the gap in talent

    117. ruruland

      All of this is extremely likely to simply academic…. Of course JR has done the unpredictable before, but I’m lead to believe that JR would turn down a number of full MLE offers to come back to this situation and the myriad opportunities it presents, both personal and financial……..there is a real cost to leaving NY that”sbeyond the difference in salary…. Unless a good team, with stable coach situation that offers starting spot and full MLE comes along, JR is for sure back….Woodson is also a big part of this

    118. diehardknickerbocker

      CHRISTMAS GAMES: BROOKLYN GOES TO THE GARDEN TO MEET MELO N CREW RAY ALLEN N JASON TERRY DUKE IT OUT IN SOUTH BEACH LAKERS TEST OUT THEY NEW TOY IN LOB CITY( ODOMS REVENGE) N LAST BUT NOT LEAST ITS THE YOUNG NOT SO BIG FRANCHISE AGAINST THE OLD NOT SO BIG FRANCHISE 1-4 WHO’S WINS

    119. diehardknickerbocker

      jon abbey: huh? he didn’t use either of those, and he wasn’t answering me, I thought he made a good point. it’s cute that you think about me a lot, though, shmoopie.

      Ray Allen to the Heat, it didn’t make too much sense for him to go back to Boston with Bradley and Terry both there.

      SAMETHING IN MIAMI DWADE BATTIER CHALMERS N DONT FORGET COLES, LOOKS TO ME ITS SOMETHING PERSONAL BUT CELTS STILL LOOKIN SHARP

    120. diehardknickerbocker

      TelegraphedPass: “Muahahaha” -Michael Beasley

      TelegraphedPass: Are they trying to slide Young or DeRozan to the three? I’m not sure I see either being very successful. Also, the Raps may leave the summer with Kyle Lowry AND Andre Iguodala??? To go with Bargs, Val, and the immortal Amir Johnson? Unreal.

      STILL NOT WINNING NO CHIP, NOT EVEN THE PLAY OFFS

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