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Friday, October 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Friday, Aug 24 2012)

  • [New York Times] Virginia Beach Courts Sacramento Kings (Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:39:06 GMT)
    With the Kings’ ownership possibly interested in relocation, Virginia Beach is making moves to attract the N.B.A. franchise.

  • [New York Times] Basketball Star Jonathan Hargett’s Promising Career Derailed (Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:40:04 GMT)
    Jonathan Hargett was once thought to be the first point guard to jump from high school to the N.B.A., but that was before a tumultuous college career and a prison sentence. He blames himself for his past decisions, which include years of abusing marijuana.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Season Tickets for Knicks and Rangers Are Nearly Sold Out (Fri, 24 Aug 2012 01:04:48 GMT)
    More than 95 percent of Knicks season-ticket holders have renewed their plans during the off-season, while more than 90 percent of Rangers season-ticket holders have already done so, according to the teams.

  • 20 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Friday, Aug 24 2012)

    1. knicknyk

      Quick question: Does anybody know how Kyrie Irving is defensively? I must confess that I have not watched many Caveliers games to get a accurate enough understanding of how good he is. In general, a lot of what I hear about Kyrie is positive, kind of curious if defense is his weakness because apparently it is?

    2. er

      im not sure but it is probably subpar as 98% of nba point guards cant stop anyone due to the hand check rules

    3. Juany8

      knicknyk:
      Quick question: Does anybody know how Kyrie Irving is defensively? I must confess that I have not watched many Caveliers games to get a accurate enough understanding of how good he is. In general, a lot of what I hear about Kyrie is positive, kind of curious if defense is his weakness because apparently it is?

      Most rookies are pretty bad defenders, and Irving isn’t exactly some athletic demon like Shump who can use his strength to make up for a lack of understanding and skill. Furthermore, he’s the team’s primary scoring option (pretty rare for a rookie) which means he probably wasn’t in good enough shape to carry the team’s offense while playing intense defense (even Lebron got constant breaks from having to guard guys like Durant, Melo, and Pierce)

    4. TelegraphedPass

      knicknyk: Quick question: Does anybody know how Kyrie Irving is defensively? I must confess that I have not watched many Caveliers games to get a accurate enough understanding of how good he is. In general, a lot of what I hear about Kyrie is positive, kind of curious if defense is his weakness because apparently it is?

      Kyrie Irving is definitively the worst defensive starting PG in the NBA. Not an exaggeration. He’s so phenomenal on offense that he compensates for it, but lord. He surrenders 1.03 points per possession on offense, and allows defenders to shoot 48.5% against him. That mark is good for 447th in the NBA. He is godawful on defense. He has only average lateral quickness, a short wingspan for his height, and poor instincts on that end of the court. Perhaps one day he can work his way up to league average, but he’s awful.

      Honestly, his defensive reputation goes easy on him. It’s next to impossible to name another rotation NBA guard as bad on defense.

    5. Juany8

      TelegraphedPass: Kyrie Irving is definitively the worst defensive starting PG in the NBA. Not an exaggeration. He’s so phenomenal on offense that he compensates for it, but lord. He surrenders 1.03 points per possession on offense, and allows defenders to shoot 48.5% against him. That mark is good for 447th in the NBA. He is godawful on defense. He has only average lateral quickness, a short wingspan for his height, and poor instincts on that end of the court. Perhaps one day he can work his way up to league average, but he’s awful.

      Honestly, his defensive reputation goes easy on him. It’s next to impossible to name another rotation NBA guard as bad on defense.

      Damn I didn’t think he was THE worst starting PG defender lol (which makes him one of the worst defenders in the entire league). Irving is a nice piece, but I still doubt he’ll ever become a major force in the league. He might not even make too many all star games, Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, Dwyane Wade, and even Deron Williams will probably be ahead of him for years to come.

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I don’t see why we should use the Synergy data at all unless we know that each position scores approximately the same PPP. Otherwise there should be an adjusted PPP statistic that accounts for position strength. If the average PG PPP is 1.25 and the average C PPP is 1.00 (which I doubt; this is only an example), would that make Irving a “bad” defender for giving up 1.03 PPP?

    7. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I don’t see why we should use the Synergy data at all unless we know that each position scores approximately the same PPP. Otherwise there should be an adjusted PPP statistic that accounts for position strength. If the average PG PPP is 1.25 and the average C PPP is 1.00 (which I doubt; this is only an example), would that make Irving a “bad” defender for giving up 1.03 PPP?

      Did you not read the part where he was 447th in the NBA? Now I don’t like taking Synergy data at face value because of all the team effects that go into such statistics, but at some point if the general consensus is that you’re a poor defender, and Synergy ranks you as one of the league’s very worst defenders, you’re probably a pretty bad defender

    8. sideQuest

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I don’t see why we should use the Synergy data at all unless we know that each position scores approximately the same PPP. Otherwise there should be an adjusted PPP statistic that accounts for position strength. If the average PG PPP is 1.25 and the average C PPP is 1.00 (which I doubt; this is only an example), would that make Irving a “bad” defender for giving up 1.03 PPP?

      Yea it’s things like this that are my problem with synergy, along with the fact that I don’t know the variance on the different stats from year How much does one’s past synergy stats explain their next synergy stats? The variance could be alot, or not that much, but knowing that is an essential part of any statistic.

      In other words, how consistent are those numbers from year to year?

    9. sideQuest

      Also, I’m guessing that the offensive stats are much more consistent than the defensive stats.

    10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Did you not read the part where he was 447th in the NBA? Now I don’t like taking Synergy data at face value because of all the team effects that go into such statistics, but at some point if the general consensus is that you’re a poor defender, and Synergy ranks you as one of the league’s very worst defenders, you’re probably a pretty bad defender

      Did you not read the part where I said that he could be better than average at his position but still be worse than “league average,” far worse?

    11. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Did you not read the part where I said that he could be better than average at his position but still be worse than “league average,” far worse?

      Yes, I also know there are around 450 players in the NBA any given season (30 teams, 15 players). You can probably count the players he’s ranked higher than in one hand (and they’re not necessarily going to be rotation players) . I’m pretty damn sure the bottom 100 is all PG’s, so I’m pretty sure his numbers are terrible for any player, regardless of position. Wouldn’t be surprised if he was ranked dead last for PG’s all things considered

    12. massive

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69bc_OOLIMM

      Watch as Kyrie Irving breaks down Team USA’s full court press, and scores over a Westbrook/Melo double team. You sure this guy won’t be a force in the NBA? I think he’ll be an MVP candidate. Steve Nash has never been known for defense, but he won two MVP awards. However, I also think this kid was the best PG prospect to be drafted since CP3. But this kid obviously has a boat-load of talent, and is more athletic than people give him credit for. Was anybody else watching the Knicks/Cavs game? Kyrie was consistently blowing past our entire defense (ranked 5th in the NBA this year). The only thing keeping him from a HOF career is a sever injury IMO.

    13. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I don’t see why we should use the Synergy data at all unless we know that each position scores approximately the same PPP. Otherwise there should be an adjusted PPP statistic that accounts for position strength. If the average PG PPP is 1.25 and the average C PPP is 1.00 (which I doubt; this is only an example), would that make Irving a “bad” defender for giving up 1.03 PPP?

      I agree with this though I’d go even further- if you can break down every possession you should be able to do better than just positional average. For instance, let’s say during a Knicks/Celtics game Shumpert guarded Paul Pierce for x number of possessions, Ray Allen for y, and Rondo for z, plus a few plays where he got switched onto Garnett in the post- you should be able to plug each of those players ppp’s and come up with a number that reflects what Shumpert allowed vs. what those players would be expected to produce. That said, as far as Irving goes, ranking 447 makes him just about the worst defender in the league- especially given that per hoopdata point guards have the lowest TS% and highest TO% (thus the lowest ppp) of any position.

    14. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Did you not read the part where I said that he could be better than average at his position but still be worse than “league average,” far worse?

      it would take 15 minutes to find out where he ranks among top 60rotation pgs.

    15. ruruland

      nicos: I agree with this though I’d go even further- if you can break down every possession you should be able to do better than just positional average.For instance, let’s say during a Knicks/Celtics game Shumpert guarded Paul Pierce for x number of possessions, Ray Allen for y, and Rondo for z, plus a few plays where he got switched onto Garnett in the post- you should be able to plug each of those players ppp’s and come up with a number that reflects what Shumpert allowed vs. what those players would be expected to produce.That said, as far as Irving goes, ranking 447 makes him just about the worst defender in the league- especially given that per hoopdata point guards have the lowest TS% and highest TO% (thus the lowest ppp) of any position.

      Right, which would make it vastly superior to WS/48

    16. nicos

      sideQuest:
      Also, I’m guessing that the offensive stats are much more consistent than the defensive stats.

      I don’t know, I’ve spent a fair amount of time on synergy and the only guy I’ve seen who showed a wild defensive variance season to season was Amar’e whose numbers were slightly above average this year and two years ago with Phoenix and awful his first year with the Knicks– maybe because he played a lot more the 5? The database only covers three seasons so you can’t get a real read on what the long-term numbers might look like.

    17. knicknyk

      massive:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69bc_OOLIMM

      Watch as Kyrie Irving breaks down Team USA’s full court press, and scores over a Westbrook/Melo double team. You sure this guy won’t be a force in the NBA? I think he’ll be an MVP candidate. Steve Nash has never been known for defense, but he won two MVP awards. However, I also think this kid was the best PG prospect to be drafted since CP3. But this kid obviously has a boat-load of talent, and is more athletic than people give him credit for. Was anybody else watching the Knicks/Cavs game? Kyrie was consistently blowing past our entire defense (ranked 5th in the NBA this year). The only thing keeping him from a HOF career is a sever injury IMO.

      I think he will be a force to be reckoned with in the NBA. But it is funny all I had heard was positive things about him (rightfully so) and I was kind of taken aback a little to realize how bad the kid is defensively. You can still be a great guard with weak defense which I think he will. Just interesting to know.

    18. sidestep

      How is PPP counted for a PnR possession? If the defender on the screener is supposed to switch to the ballhandler but fails to, or hedges too much, and the ballhandler ends up scoring off of the screen, is that counted against the PG on defense or the other defender? And if the roll man gets the ball from a PnR play and scores, against which defender are those points counted?

    19. ruruland

      sidestep:
      How is PPP counted for a PnR possession? If the defender on the screener is supposed to switch to the ballhandler but fails to, or hedges too much, and the ballhandler ends up scoring off of the screen, is that counted against the PG on defense or the other defender? And if the roll man gets the ball from a PnR play and scores, against which defender are those points counted?

      Do you have an account?

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