Knicks Morning News (2022.07.05)

  • Decompression, Part 2: Where do the Knicks go from here? – The Strickland
    [www.thestrick.land] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 1:03:58 AM

    Decompression, Part 2: Where do the Knicks go from here?  The Strickland

  • Knicks’ free-agent signings could limit roles of Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 8:52:00 PM

    Knicks’ free-agent signings could limit roles of Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley  New York Post Los Angeles Clippers Star Signs With The New York Knicks  Sports IllustratedNew York Knicks keeping Mitchell Robinson after agreeing to four-year, $60M deal, agents say  ESPNClippers news: Isaiah Hartenstein pens heartfelt message to LA after signing with Knicks  ClutchPointsReports: Mitchell Robinson, Knicks reach agreement on 4-year deal  NBA.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • 2022 NBA free agency tracker: Zach LaVine gets supermax; Jalen Brunson to Knicks; Deandre Ayton still unsigned – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 7:29:00 PM

    2022 NBA free agency tracker: Zach LaVine gets supermax; Jalen Brunson to Knicks; Deandre Ayton still unsigned  CBS Sports

  • Knicks Hesitant To Make Massive Donovan Mitchell Trade? – NBA Analysis Network
    [nbaanalysis.net] — Monday, July 4, 2022 3:24:05 PM

    Knicks Hesitant To Make Massive Donovan Mitchell Trade?  NBA Analysis Network

  • Boston Celtics: Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving land with Knicks in trade proposal – Hardwood Houdini
    [hardwoodhoudini.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 3:15:00 PM

    Boston Celtics: Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving land with Knicks in trade proposal  Hardwood Houdini

  • LeBron James Trade to Knicks? Odds Include New York in Lakers Deal – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 1:55:00 PM

    LeBron James Trade to Knicks? Odds Include New York in Lakers Deal  Sports Illustrated

  • Can Knicks Rookie Trevor Keels Become Like Marcus Smart? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 1:35:43 PM

    Can Knicks Rookie Trevor Keels Become Like Marcus Smart?  Sports Illustrated

  • Atlantic Notes: Porter, Raptors, Knicks, Celtics, Reed – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 12:21:00 PM

    Atlantic Notes: Porter, Raptors, Knicks, Celtics, Reed  hoopsrumors.com

  • Boston Celtics Add Star Player On A 2-Year Deal – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 11:59:15 AM

    Boston Celtics Add Star Player On A 2-Year Deal  Sports Illustrated

  • Blake Griffin, Jeremy Lamb and more: 5 players the New York Knicks can target with their mid-level exception – Sportskeeda
    [www.sportskeeda.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 10:43:42 AM

    Blake Griffin, Jeremy Lamb and more: 5 players the New York Knicks can target with their mid-level exception  Sportskeeda

  • Knicks’ draft product Trevor Keels compared to this hard-nosed NBA guard – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 10:00:00 AM

    Knicks’ draft product Trevor Keels compared to this hard-nosed NBA guard  Daily Knicks

  • 2021-22 Knicks Player Review: Quentin Grimes – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 9:00:00 AM

    2021-22 Knicks Player Review: Quentin Grimes  Posting and Toasting

  • 3 Jalen Brunson stats that New York Knicks fans will love – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, July 4, 2022 8:00:00 AM

    3 Jalen Brunson stats that New York Knicks fans will love  Daily Knicks

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    159 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.07.05)”

    1. Instead of focusing on Mitch’s salary, I think a better way to look at it is what we’re paying for the center position as a whole. We’re paying 20 million for our center position, three deep. Of course, health is always going to be a factor, but this season we should be even deeper at that position than last year and the position has more versatility with the addition of Hartenstein and his shooting/passing.

      I hope Thibs realizes this and gives all three of our centers burn every game. Keep them fresh and throw different looks at the opposition. There is no reason for Mitch to play 40 minutes a night. Sims should get 10 a game if possible.

    2. We have three centers to have backups for injury (and foul trouble). I don’t see Thibs playing all three in one game under normal circumstances. Actually I think it likely Thibs will play grit and grind with his starting lineup, but switch to a run and gun line up with the bench using Hartenstein as a threat from outside to open up driving lanes for Toppin, Quickley and Rose.

    3. Oh, cool. I’m still here.

      Well, I suppose it is self evident that extending a multi year offer to Miles Bridges on day 1 of free agency would have been an unequivocal disaster. I purchased a nice, big, gold L necklace with diamonds to commemorate that one.

      I do maintain that he is a distressed asset that will likely regain much (if not all) of his value rather quickly. I think he’s going to be the Latrell Sprewell of 2023 and have a major impact for whatever team picks him up on the cheap.

      But I will cease advocating for such a move here. I’m sure the Lakers and Heat are already working on it, anyway.

    4. You are probably right. But I think Sims needs to be utilized some and not just when an injury happens. He has a toughness to him that is going to be useful at times. I guess if there’s a game where Hartenstein is getting pushed around, hopefully thibs will give Sims some burn.

      I definitely share the concern with people about Thibs not playing the young players. The FO did a good job so far of taking away a few of the vets with Noel, Kemba and Burks but out of those 3, Burks was the only one who really was in danger of taking away PT from younger players. But now the challenge, if Fournier and Randle can’t be moved and we assume Taj and Rose come back, will be to see if Thibs does still play the youngsters. Even if Randle bounces back, I do not want to see 40 minutes of Randle every night (or 40 minutes of RJ for that matter).

      I’ve defended Thibs more than anyone on this blog but I will say this now. This is make or break for him this season. He has to rely on the depth of this team. I think we are improved but we still do not have that top end talent superstar to carry this team and our strength in the regular season is going to be our depth. It needs to be a real meritocracy this season. No messing around.

      Of course Brunson is going to play 40 a night. I’ve resigned myself to that LOL.

    5. Apparently Miles will be pursuing a rap career if he gets cut, so we will just have to idolize him for his killer beats.

    6. No terrible Knicks references today. Just a quick note to all considering a trip cross country. The absolute key is a national park pass for the family. I once serendipitously found a free family pass for fourth graders when the lad was of age. Then book your ass to South Dakota as there is nothing much east of here. (But there is a Woman’s Rights National Park in the Finger Lakes district — take your daughters soon before it’s de-gazzetted, guys!). Then it’s one incredible park after another, Wind Cave and Teddy Roosevelt and Yellowstone and Glacier and tons more, and if you do the southern route it’s Zion and Arches and Bryce etc.

      No time on this mad dash (although Lady Raven is advocating for a quick peek at the Badlands this afternoon). But a rough count suggests this is now over a dozen such trips for me. Talk about mid-spent youth…

      Okay, back to Mitch.

    7. My parents retired 20 years ago and bought a small ranch house outside of Glacier National Park. I worked in the park at a restaurant the summer after I graduated from college. One of the best summers of my life.

      I’ve been to most of the big ones out west. Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Badlands, Glacier, Zion (my personal fave), Yosemite, Redwoods, Bryce, Joshua Tree, Grand Canyon, Smokies. The ones in Canada in Alberta are dope too.

      Still need to hit up the ones in Oregon and Washington and do a few more in the Southwest.

    8. And while I will not go so far as to take an L on Leon Rose, I will say that Z-Man’s side of the argument has seen some weight added to its side of the scales this offseason.

      The summer of 2021 was a disaster in every sense, but I don’t hate where we are today. This team has a fairly wide range of outcomes now. I’d say 36 wins is our floor and 50 wins is our (unlikely) ceiling.

      I will not ignore the fact that if he executed a good offseason last year (or even just a not shitty one), we could be in incredible shape today. Not only did we burn so many assets to offload his mistakes, but the opportunity cost of all the moves we didn’t make was very high, too.

      But if this team plays well it won’t be hard to sell off some of the extraneous and overpriced pieces (Randle, Fournier) and get us back to a good position. It remains to be seen if Leon has the sense to do that. And how he manages the RJ situation could get the scales tipped all the way back in the anti-Leon position.

      Right now, though, there’s enough cause for optimism. Brunson may be the best pickup the Knicks have made since Tyson Chandler. Hartenstein is a nice addition. We don’t have enough picks to land a superstar but we can still do some nice things. If he had inherited this mess instead of created it, I would have given him a B plus for this offseason.

    9. We don’t have enough picks to land a superstar

      So you don’t think Donovan Mitchell is a superstar. :D

    10. Then book your ass to South Dakota as there is nothing much east of here.

      I backpacked in the northern Minnesota wild once. That’s pretty amazing. The most notable and family-friendly state park there is Lake Itasca, which is known for being the headwaters of the Mississippi River. You can actually walk over the headwaters, and it’s pretty awesome to do so knowing what they will amount to downstream.

      The banks of the St Croix are full of wonderful state parks, too. And honestly I might have moved to Chicago just so I could spend more time on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. But yesterday one of my best friends spent the fourth of July acting as a human shield for his two daughters at the Highland Park parade. So I probably will not do that.

    11. I agree that this offseason suggests a learning curve on Leon’s part and that he’s settling in as an experienced POBO rather than the novice he was when he took over. Even with the obvious (and I think unnecessary) overpay for Mitch, we are better positioned for future moves than we have been in a while.

      As to the last two offseasons, again I have to say that while there wasn’t much brillliance involved and some clear gaffes were made, Leon avoided the BIG, unrecoverable mistakes, like trading a trove of first rounders for a faux star in an effort to make a big splash. Even the suspect moves had a defendable logic to them. And if all it costed you to dump Burks, Noel and Kemba in a state of urgency was 3-4 second rounders including some that project into the late 50’s, none of the decisions were all that bad. In other words, the price paid for the learning curve wasn’t all that steep.

      There are still elephants in the room, most notably Thibs (no pun intended.) I admire him as a coach and I think his decisions re: playing time are much more based on intensive game film analysis than some knee-jerk reaction in favor of vets. But he views everything through the lens of his preferred sets and systems, and uses his personnel to fit that system rather than shift to a system that favors the personnel his FO acquires for him.

      It remains to be seen whether the shade thrown at him by WWW (and the Hinkie shade he threw at Aller) are starting to resonate with Leon, and by extension, with Thibs. Leon emphasized young player development in his last statement, and Thibs admitted that he should have played Obi and IQ more in a rare concession to the media. I’m trying to figure out whether that means he’s feeling pressure to adapt or whether it’s just a temporary smokescreen before he reverts to his ingrained preferences at the expense of Obi, IQ, Grimes, etc.

      It will also be interesting to see whether Leon continues to dispense with Thibs’ favorite toys like DRose and Julius to force his hand.

    12. Ess-dog, how did they do that? I thought they were way over the cap?

    13. It remains to be seen whether the shade thrown at him by WWW (and the Hinkie shade he threw at Aller) are starting to resonate with Leon, and by extension, with Thibs. Leon emphasized young player development in his last statement, and Thibs admitted that he should have played Obi and IQ more in a rare concession to the media. I’m trying to figure out whether that means he’s feeling pressure to adapt or whether it’s just a temporary smokescreen before he reverts to his ingrained preferences at the expense of Obi, IQ, Grimes, etc.

      As discussed yesterday, the issue seems to be less about Thibs believing veterans must always play ahead of kids than it is a specific Obi/Randle problem. Thibs loves Grimes, and would have played him a million minutes (figures roughly estimated) if not for the injury. He loves Quickley, though it seems that he does not believe IQ can play point guard full time. IQ still plays a lot, especially on nights when he’s hot. RJ obviously plays a ton even when he’s inefficient. Obi is really the one guy whose minutes have suffered in favor of a vet who clearly did not deserve to play as much as he was. And Obi is the one most in need of more minutes, because he’s the biggest mystery box of the Leon Rose draftees. Is the guy from the last week of last season? Can he be even better than the guy from the last week of last season, given that he shouldered more of a playmaking load at Dayton? Is he just an energy guy with a limited ceiling? We need to know as much for what to do with Randle as for what kind of contract we should offer Obi next summer, whether we should be willing to trade him or if we should keep him at all costs, etc.

      Was the Thibs admission about realizing he should have played the kids more a sign that he will, in fact, play Obi more? Will rehabilitating Randle’s trade value take precedence? Are both Thibs’ comment and the Rose letter to season ticket holders just lip service? TBD.

    14. I don’t think the second rounders used to shed the vets are really a big deal AT ALL especially since Leon has picked up extra picks in every draft so far.

      The moves last off season did not pan out but at the time the broad consensus on this blog was that the moves were good. Kemba was a low risk, high reward gambit that did not work out. Fournier wasn’t a great signing but also, I think he’s been better than some people give him credit for being and he could end up being valuable to us this season if he sticks around. And again, it’s certainly not a huge overpay.

      The biggest mistake was Randle but again, coming off MIP, 2nd team all NBA leading the team to the 4th seed, in his prime…he took a below market deal at the time. It is impossible to know the future as far as a player having a mental implosion like he did. So I can hardly ding him on that. Again, most people were on board with that contract when signed.

    15. (Cam is the other kid Thibs didn’t want to play, but that’s a different situation than Obi’s. We had a full complement of wing players, all of whom have demonstrated more in the NBA than Cam has outside of a few isolated games. I have to imagine that either Cam will be traded, or one of Fournier or Rose will be, because the current situation is untenable.)

    16. “But yesterday one of my best friends spent the fourth of July acting as a human shield for his two daughters at the Highland Park parade. So I probably will not do that.”

      Sadly, it can happen at any time and at any place in the US these days. We’ve been looking into Irish citizenship over the past few weeks because it’s just not a safe time to be in America.

    17. Someone posted yesterday referring to Randle as ‘one of the worst players in the entire league’. I was about to post back calling this out as hyperbole, but thought I’d just go back to the stats – and lo and behold by some measures he really was one of the worst! I’ve clearly not de-biased myself completely from leaning on counting stats as a measure.

      Anyway, this really does ram home how bad the situation with him is. He’s so bad that no-one will want him at that price and I suspect management won’t want to admit defeat and pay someone to take him. (And at the going rate, it might cost 5 1rps anyway!). But if he improves at all, management is likely to cling onto the idea he can get back to being our ‘star’ and won’t want to trade him. And in the meantime he is just going to block Obi, who otherwise has a legit shot to be part of our next good team.

      It would make a decent offseason into a great one if we could move him at an acceptable price. But I can’t see any way it happens unless either Dallas gets desperate in a S&T or the Westbrook for Julius and Fournier plan comes to fruition. Depressing.

    18. I agree that this offseason suggests a learning curve on Leon’s part and that he’s settling in as an experienced POBO rather than the novice he was when he took over.

      Oh, I would not go that far. I wouldn’t even approach saying such a thing. I just said this offseason was decent and I don’t hate where we are today.

      I continue to compare him to a mediocre rock-climber. A good one charts a path to the top and makes his moves accordingly. Sometimes that means going sideways and sometimes it even means taking steps down.

      Leon is the rock climber who keeps taking the most obvious next step without thinking about where it eventually leads. Right now, there is at least a path in front of him. I don’t have a lot of faith that he sees it, and I would bet a considerable sum of money that he ends up rim-rocked.

    19. The Hornets are probably going to need a new starting power forward…

      Randle + Fournier for Hayward + Washington works in the trade machine. Hayward could be a bench shooter and Washington would be a fine backup PF.

      I’d much rather have 2 years of Hayward than 4 years of Randle.

    20. These are the things Leon could do to give me confidence:

      1. Solve the Obi Randle problem proactively in an asset-positive way
      2. Do the same with backcourt logjam (Brunson, Rose, Fournier, and Quickley is one guard too many).
      3. Manage the RJ situation well. And to me that is either a) signing him to a team-friendly extension before the season starts, or b) trading him now while he can command a high-ish return.
      4. Navigate the 2023 draft with significantly more aplomb than he showed in 2021 and 2022.

      Here is how I expect Leon to handle all those things:

      1. Do nothing about the Obi Randle situation until Obi becomes worthless & Randle becomes an albatross.
      2. Allow Thibs to bury Quickley in favor of Derrick Rose.
      3. We will either max RJ now, max RJ later, or lose RJ in free agency
      4. The usual bullshit in the next draft.

    21. I don’t see any learning from Leon. I just think his short-sighted moves this year were much better than his short-sighted moves last year.

    22. I don’t think the second rounders used to shed the vets are really a big deal AT ALL especially since Leon has picked up extra picks in every draft so far.

      it wasn’t just second rounders… they punted another first rd pick ..a lottery pick at that… out three years in order to dump Kemba…. a pick that’s likely going to be much much worse than 11…

      and then there’s the opportunity cost of rostering vets that didn’t actually add wins in favor of all the picks that were incinerated that could’ve done the same thing at a much cheaper cost… then maybe we could’ve added Brunson AND another player this off-season.. we still have Fournier on the books and he’s about to be relegated to an even lesser role with the USG crunch….

      I know ppl are moving on from thinking the incineration s aren’t that big a deal to not even mentioning them but every opportunity does matter and eventually the piper gets paid… last year was a portent into that and all it takes is some average amt of luck to have that happen again…

    23. I don’t disagree that this offseason has been mostly good, though I’m convinced a savvier front office would’ve traded back to 13 and made a pick while dumping Kemba another way (or just making a pick instead of signing Hartenstein–as much as I like Hartenstein, I would rather have four years of Tari Eason).

      My problem remains that we’re at least as far from acquiring the kind of talent we need to contend as we were when Leon Rose took over, and arguably even further since he’s effectively cut off the draft route.

      Some people have pointed out that you can get superstars without high picks, and that’s true even if the probability issues are well-documented. I’ve always been a proponent of stockpiling and making as many picks as possible. You know who isn’t a proponent of that? The guy who has traded first rounders in back-to-back drafts for extremely questionable value. It’s going to be hard to find our Giannis if we keep trading our picks.

      I will repeat that I am pretty confident if there was a league wide re-draft, we would be the last team to have a player picked. I just can’t be pollyanna about that state of affairs, sorry!

      It’s not out of the question that Rose gets us out of this morass (and yes, that’s a fair way to characterize the “best non-playoff team” situation even if it offends) and if he does I’ll give him credit. I’m not going to give in to the bizarre insistence that I do so before he’s done that, though. I’m glad he was able to sign his godson, re-sign Mitch by using his Bird Rights to offer him the most money, and sign Hartenstein presumably by offering him the most money. All good moves IMO, but we should also have higher aspirations.

    24. I have no issue with people not being confident in Rose or wanting to wait and see.

      The issue I have is when people focus solely on the negative and act like we’re totally screwed and will never be good and its the same LOLKNICKS as previous regimes. That is clearly not the case. Maybe you want Leon to make more draft picks. That is fair. I just take issue with people piling on every little move they disagree with and using it as some sort of proof that his plan or strategy is wrong or not thought out. That is clearly not the case.

    25. Too much overthinking.

      1. Leon came in with a plan of using the draft, free agency, and trades to build a team of mostly young talent but with some vets to mentor the young players and help change the culture.

      2. Leon drafted and also filled the team with 1 year mercenaries because no one that was any good would come to the Knicks.

      3. The Knicks wildly outperformed expectations (mostly Randle).

      3. Leon either overestimated where the team was or felt after a season like that he politically could not move the team backwards again by jettisoning all the vets that contributed and should try to improve that team instead.

      4. Leon drafted and also filled the team with mostly the same mercenaries (had to give then 2 years this time) to keep things stable and also tried to address the shooting and PG problem because no one that was any good would come to the Knicks.

      Are we seeing the pattern yet after the 1000th time?

      5. The Knicks disappointed badly for a variety of reason (including key injuries, other teams that had underperformed the previous season due to injuries and Covid were better, a couple of teams made very good moves etc..)

      6. Leon decided to go back to the original plan of using the draft, free agency, and trades to build a team of mostly young talent but with some vets to mentor and help change the culture.

      7. Despite the Knicks being bad, special circumstances allowed Leon to finally land a key free agent.

      If they perform well this year, that will make it easier to land the next one and make some more trades.

    26. “1. Leon came in with a plan of using the draft, free agency, and trades to build a team of mostly young talent but with some vets to mentor the young players and help change the culture.”

      This is the “plan” of every team in the NBA. That’s the problem with even calling it a “plan.” It’s just the job description of an NBA executive. It tells you nothing about how a given executive might execute the tradeoffs inherent to the “plan.”

      What do you do when a particular free agent signing makes it less likely you’ll be able to improve through the draft? What do you do when acquiring “some vets” makes it less likely you accumulate young talent? I could go on forever but we should stop pretending this is a “plan.”

      Rose has navigated these tradeoffs somewhat sporadically. I refer to the Weitzman article a lot because I think it’s the best piece out there for understanding the “plan” to the extent there is one–the people around Rose all want him to move more aggressively in one direction or the other and he tries to split the baby.

      So far, and I will repeat that this can change, this has indisputably led to a situation in which we aren’t as good as the contenders and don’t have the future-asset chest of the rebuilding teams.

    27. ess-dog: Randle + Fournier for Hayward + Washington works in the trade machine. Hayward could be a bench shooter and Washington would be a fine backup PF.

      I like this trade, as it clears Fournier’s money in 2023-24, it allows us to unleash Obi, with a good backup in PJ Washington, and to play Quick/Grimes at SG. And if we sign RJ to a team friendly deal, say 4/100M, and then stretch-waive Hayward’s 2023-24 money, we can get to 35M in cap (if we decline DRose’s 3rd year option and waive Cam’s cap hold). Do it, Leon. :)

    28. In this (very good) piece about Brunson, Katz predicts we’re probably going to get dinged for tampering. He suggests we try to get out in front of it by acquiring a very bad 2nd rounder in the 2023 draft that the NBA can take away, as opposed to the next 2nd we actually have–a decent one in 2024. It would be really funny if that worked.

      We have a 2023 2nd rounder, and it’s a good one (DET).
      About the tampering charges, i think it’s bollocks. We also cleared the cap for KD in 2019 and came away empty handed. How is this different? Does every team that clears cap to make moves get fined? I don’t think so.

    29. I think offering Randle to Portland for Bledsoe seems like a good move. They need more size and they are trying to put a competitive team around Dame for one last push.

      I would then offer Rose to Boston. He would fit nicely into their TPE which is about to expire. That would leave us with just Fournier who we could keep or maybe Dallas would want him in a S&T.

      As for Leon, I have a hard time looking past moving two consecutive 1st round picks for questionable return. #13 to dump Kemba and #19 for a mediocre future 1st we used to get Cam is terrible. The rest of this offseason is great and if we, in fact, move Randle and Rose I will probably be able to move past moving the picks because I really like our signings but if Randle is here next year this offseason was a bust plain and simple.

    30. The “incineration”/Reddish collection of transactions are really the only ones I remain outright annoyed with. We still come out ahead on first round picks from the various trades made on draft night this year, and by all accounts this was not a good draft. It is possible we will deeply regret missing out on Duren, Eason, TyTy, or whomever, but it seems just as likely that few players outside the top 7 this year will amount to anything, and that the Bucks pick will prove more valuable either as a trade asset or for the player we eventually take with it.

      The trade of the 19th pick suggested panic in a way we have not generally seen from this group, given the extreme protections on the pick and the lack of any kind of bonus (even one second rounder, or rights to a draft and stash guy) in return for said protections. In hindsight, it feels as if they assumed one of Trey Murphy or Tre Mann would fall to them, and did not have a trade already in place for when that didn’t happen. And trading the heavily protected Charlotte pick for Cam only made things worse, given Cam’s contract timeline, Thibs’ obvious disdain for him, and the incredibly small sample size of him seeming particularly good at basketball.

      The rest of the Rose administration has been a mix of promising and uninspiring, but I like a lot of our young players, I like Brunson, and I remain hopeful that Randle is not long for this team.

    31. Think many are underestimating Fournier here.
      Guy had a terrible start and bad first year but he still broke the Knicks all-time record with 3 point FGM in a season. He was the best shooter in the association from the left corner three.
      He’s our best and most consistent spot up and off dribble shooter by far, makes ~14% of team salary cap who actually plays all season, and he’s only 29 yrs old. Why wouldn’t we reasonably expect that his TS and offensive rating revert back to career averages.
      Having a roster of poor shooting forwards and centers, increases his value to team and JBs paint game – which makes him an integral part of any success we wish to have this year.

    32. The thing is there is no real way to prove we tampered to get Brunson. It’s bullshit.

      Hey! You cleared cap space! Um, yeah. We sucked last year and wanted to improve our team.

      Hey! You hired his dad! Um, yeah, he used to work for our coach.

      Hey! You came to one of our playoff games! Yeah, we wanted to watch the playoff game.

      Hey! He signed with you without even meeting with us! Well, yeah. You didn’t sign him months ago when you could have gotten him for half of what we paid for him but you wanted to get cute. So he signed with us where he can be the full-time staring PG and he has roots with our GM and the organization and he’s from the East Coast.

      Hey! You’re GM used to be an agent and knows a lot of people! Well, yeah. That’s why we hired him.

    33. I think, maybe some posters forget the Isiah years, or max Amar’e, or the Melo-Drama, or the Melo Mega-Max (or Bargnani, or Knox, or Ntilikina, lol). Nothing Leon has done even approaches those things. Practically all his moves have been net positives or looked that way when he made them.

      Again, Z-Man said it. Thibs does a ton of film study. If Obi doesn’t get the run Randle does or if Burks plays and IQ sits, it’s probably because he thinks it’s his best chance to win. He’s NEVER thinking, “Let’s not worry about this game. It’ll be good for Obi to get some extended run.” I don’t think we want him to be, either.

      I just hope this will be a fun team to root for, good home team, and finish with a plus .500 record. I think Rose has put us in position to make it a reality, but everyone on the team has to improve. If Obi’s first 3 attempt is an air ball, we’ll know. If IQ goes to his left, turns back, and gets stuffed on a hook shot, we’ll know. If Julius does his bad Golden State impression, we’ll know. If Thibs, refuses to bench someone who’s stinking it up, we’ll know.

    34. Leon has two go-to moves:

      1. Use cap space to sign MVFAs to MV contracts
      2. Punt on draft picks, converting 1RPs into picks that will convey in the future

      He basically did those same two moves again this off-season. If you’re a glass half full kind of person, you could say that Leon is keeping his powder dry, holding onto his assets while waiting for the right time to pull the trigger on a superstar trade.

      If you’re a glass half empty kind of person, you could say that Leon makes a lot of moves that aren’t terrible on the surface but also don’t move the needle very much, and that as a result we don’t have a great collection of assets to trade, and have a core with a very low ceiling.

    35. Guys, you are aware Leon went to the draft with ONE PICK (#11) and punted on selecting players, this time around (and the math for Brunson/Hart proved it was needed). But he came away with THREE PICKS. How come this is being labeled as a bad draft? The draft was weak, it was a good idea to punt on this one, what was wrong was to punt on last year’s draft, on a deep draft.

    36. I think offering Randle to Portland for Bledsoe seems like a good move. They need more size and they are trying to put a competitive team around Dame for one last push.

      This ship sailed when they traded for Jerami. Now they have Jerami at the 4 and Nurk at the 5. Why would they need Randle?

    37. Fournier is fine but the problem is we need to see what Cam can do since we used draft capital in acquiring him.

      As it stands right now there are no minutes for Cam unless injury occurs but I’d rather that not be the approach towards him this season. You either trade him or make space for him with another deal in place.

    38. Isaiah Roby got waived. Would be a nice pickup if we plan on moving Randle.

    39. Ahh, I miss Bob hanging around here. For that matter, I miss those glorious days when he and Brian and others would have the time and motivation to write free articles for us here, as opposed to working for sites that will, you know, pay them for their work.

      But the conversation’s still pretty good around here, give or take some occasionally contentious periods about various subjects I will not dignify to name right now. :)

    40. He’s NEVER thinking, “Let’s not worry about this game. It’ll be good for Obi to get some extended run.” I don’t think we want him to be, either.

      I definitely want him to be thinking that

    41. David Fizdale gave Kevin Knox plenty of extended run his rookie season. He only got worse.

      The idea that playing time is the only way for a young player to get better is kind of silly. Obi looked awful the beginning of his rookie year. So awful people were calling the pick a bust. Then he’s doled out small minutes throughout his rookier year and slowly got a little better. Same last year. Then when we starts at the end of the year he looks pretty good. And people act like “AGH! IMAGINE HOW GOOD HE’D BE IF HE PLAYED THE WHOLE TIME?” never thinking…gee, maybe not playing and working with the coaching staff, watching the games, etc..is what made him get better.

    42. We have a 2023 2nd rounder, and it’s a good one (DET).

      no… that got incinerated in the Burks/Noel deal to Detroit…

    43. Swifty, at this point it’s not about development. That Fred Katz piece about Thibs’ work with the rookies and second-year players very convincingly argued that Thibs not only cares about development but spends a lot of time on it. Now it’s about what is best for the team, both in the short and long term. Obi is the better fit with a lot of guys in this rotation, and the team also has to make decisions about his future: Do we extend him next summer because he’s one of our best young players? Do we trade him at the deadline before the league realizes he’s just an energy guy?

      Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I have a bad feeling Thibs will still be playing Obi less than 20 minutes per game due to Randle’s fragile ego, Thibs’ belief that the team is at its best when Randle is at his best (despite last season showing how bad the team can be if Randle is at his worst yet still given the same leash by the coach), and/or the front office’s desire to rehabilitate Randle’s trade value before they can/will unload him. I want Obi to play more because he should be playing more.

    44. I can’t imagine the Knicks will actually get hit with a tampering charge.
      Leon and co are way too smart to have anything that can be traced directly to them, and everything else is circumstantial evidence. Shams coming out with an (incorrect) contract amount isn’t proof of anything other than that he and Dallas had some sort of interest in common. I don’t know what the burden of proof is, but I would fight it tooth and nail if I were the Knicks.

      by the way – I saw Top Gun Maverick this weekend and it was the most fun I’ve had in a movie theater in a really long time. Smart for Tom Cruise to basically combine his two most successful roles (Pete Mitchell + Ethan Hunt) into one movie, then add unbelievable fighter jet scenes + Jennifer Connolly (she will never not be one of the most beautiful women ever).

    45. “Same last year. Then when we starts at the end of the year he looks pretty good. And people act like “AGH! IMAGINE HOW GOOD HE’D BE IF HE PLAYED THE WHOLE TIME?” never thinking…gee, maybe not playing and working with the coaching staff, watching the games, etc..is what made him get better.”

      Last year the on/off stats said Obi was more conducive to winning than Randle, Obi’s box score stats were better than Randle’s, other players played better with Obi on the floor as opposed to Randle, and perhaps more strongly than any of this other stuff the god damn eye test said it was better for Obi to be on the floor than Randle.

      So while I won’t pretend to know what the perfect development plan is for a young player, it’s a bit hard for me to buy that it’s good for their development to sit them even when they’re playing well and their lack of minutes is detrimental to the team.

    46. “Some people have pointed out that you can get superstars without high picks, and that’s true even if the probability issues are well-documented. I’ve always been a proponent of stockpiling and making as many picks as possible. You know who isn’t a proponent of that? The guy who has traded first rounders in back-to-back drafts for extremely questionable value. It’s going to be hard to find our Giannis if we keep trading our picks.”

      This also kind of ignores the fact that 9 of the 15 All-NBA players this season were top 5 picks, 2 others were top 10 picks, and 1 other was at the end of the lottery. 12/15 All-NBA players were lottery picks and 3/15 were picked somewhere in the remaining 46 picks.

      “I have no issue with people not being confident in Rose or wanting to wait and see.

      The issue I have is when people focus solely on the negative and act like we’re totally screwed and will never be good and its the same LOLKNICKS as previous regimes. That is clearly not the case. Maybe you want Leon to make more draft picks. That is fair. I just take issue with people piling on every little move they disagree with and using it as some sort of proof that his plan or strategy is wrong or not thought out. That is clearly not the case.”

      My problem is with comparing Rose to previous Knicks regimes. The Leon Rose Knicks aren’t competing against the Steve Mills, Phil Jackson, Isiah Thomas, or Scott Layden Knicks. They’re competing against the Riley Heat, Stevens Celtics, Morey 76ers, Ujiri Raptors, etc.

    47. I definitely agree with vincoug here, I don’t care if out management is better now than the absolute dumpster fire that were most management teams we’ve had. What I care about is our position relative to the league, and it is, right now, objectively a bad one. Like many people said, there are at least 6 eastern teams who are clearly better than us (Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, Atlanta, Philly and Toronto), and then there’s at least Chicago, Cleveland and the Nets until further notice who were all better last season and have a chance to remain better.

      At the end of the day this team as currently constructed is just an ok NBA team that projects to be competitive most nights. There is upside on the roster and the situation is not bleak, but there’s still a lot of work to be done before I’m properly happy with how the Knicks are positioned.

    48. This ship sailed when they traded for Jerami. Now they have Jerami at the 4 and Nurk at the 5. Why would they need Randle?

      It’s always possible they play Grant at the 3.

      Alternatively, they might want Fournier at the 3. But after moving Norm Powell I’d be skeptical they want to re-up with a shooter who plays no defense.

      I’d guess they try and make a move for Durant, using Bledsoe as salary filler.

    49. David Fizdale gave Kevin Knox plenty of extended run his rookie season. He only got worse.

      Cool but Kevin Knox didn’t deserve it and Obi Toppin did.

    50. *** If you’re a glass half full kind of person, you could say that Leon is keeping his powder dry, holding onto his assets while waiting for the right time to pull the trigger on a superstar trade.***

      What if you’re a glass-half-full-because-he-spilled-the-other-half-of-his-water-on-his-powder kind of person? There have been opportunities to trade for star players. Gobert and Murray are two all-stars that were just available for dry powder– both better than Brunson and Hartenstein– neither of whom came to the Knicks. Since becoming POBO, eleven all-stars have been traded (with a combined 50 all-star appearances between them), and Rose has either lost all bidding, or has not bid at all. “Keep the powder damp” is a new kind of strategy, we’ll see where it leads I guess.

    51. Like many people said, there are at least 6 eastern teams who are clearly better than us (Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, Atlanta, Philly and Toronto), and then there’s at least Chicago, Cleveland and the Nets until further notice who were all better last season and have a chance to remain better.

      At the end of the day this team as currently constructed is just an ok NBA team that projects to be competitive most nights. There is upside on the roster and the situation is not bleak, but there’s still a lot of work to be done before I’m properly happy with how the Knicks are positioned.

      The Knicks have 11 players on their roster 24 and under. They have only 3 players over 30, including 4th string Taj Gibson. This is not a win-now team. Doesn’t much matter who’s currently in front of us.

    52. “This is the “plan” of every team in the NBA. That’s the problem with even calling it a “plan.” It’s just the job description of an NBA executive. It tells you nothing about how a given executive might execute the tradeoffs inherent to the “plan.””

      Every team is in a different position as to their probability of attracting top players as free agents or in trades, the willingness of the owner to spend money, and their stage of development. So they all have different areas of emphasis. The Knicks are a major market with a rich owner that’s willing to spend. The only limitation the Knicks have is trying to make themselves attractive to high level players that trust management and coaching and because the team is pretty good.

      It is inherent in trades and free agency that you never have details. You never know who is going to be available. So the only “plan” is to accumulate assets (players and picks) and keep yourself flexible enough and attractive enough to have a good chance of landing one here or there.

      We landed Brunson. That makes us more attractive. We are loaded with excess 1st rounders for a trade if the right player becomes available. What need from here is to continue drafting and developing our players and try to straighten out Randle to increase the value of the non pick assets. Then you wait. You know what the plan it. You don’t and can’t really know the details until players become available (and they will).

    53. “The Knicks have 11 players on their roster 24 and under. They have only 3 players over 30, including 4th string Taj Gibson. This is not a win-now team. Doesn’t much matter who’s currently in front of us.”

      And that’s why I said that there is upside on the team and there’s still a lot of work to be done.

      The teams ahead of us do matter specially when some of those, like Boston or Milwaukee, are positioned to be contenders for at least the next five years, and some others, like Philly, Atlanta and Miami, have established superstars already. Those are not aging teams that will be gone by the time we’re finished rebuilding, aside from maybe Miami which you can argue will fall off eventually when Jimmy starts to decline some time relatively soon if they don’t manage to retool.

      I’ll be happy when we have a chance at competing with those guys, or when the roster has enough upside to get there eventually. It’s still not there for me.

    54. djphan: no… that got incinerated in the Burks/Noel deal to Detroit…

      Yeah, you’re right, i forgot. I usually use this site to check draft picks – https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed
      They must be having problems refreshing the list, because they still have DET 2023 2RP on our list and don’t have MIL 2025 1RP. Somehow they manage to have the other 2023 1RPs and the deal was on the same day.

    55. Boston or Milwaukee, are positioned to be contenders for at least the next five years, and some others, like Philly, Atlanta and Miami, have established superstars already.

      Jrue, Middleton, & Lopez are all on the wrong side of 30.

      Boston figures to be very good, but don’t underestimate Horford—35yo.

      Atlanta wasn’t much better than us last year. I’m not sold on Dejounte Murray yet.

      Philly just bought Harden for their remaining Stepien tradable 1sts. He likely gets maxed. Embiid is 28 & struggles to stay healthy. His injury issues aren’t going to get better.

      And yeah, Butler is their best player. Don’t forget Lowry either at 35.

    56. no… that got incinerated in the Burks/Noel deal to Detroit…

      I’ll take Hartenstein & Brunson over a 2nd rd pick.

    57. Swift, your ability to move goalposts is impressive, but we were talking about Obi Toppin last year, i.e. the year when he was better than Randle.

    58. Just because you’re under 24 doesn’t mean you’re going to get better. A lot of those guys are just going to get older.

    59. Just because you’re under 24 doesn’t mean you’re going to get better. A lot of those guys are just going to get older.

      You don’t need all of them to get better. You may not need any of them to get better. You have 6 or more years to add other players to get better. They don’t need to compete with teams better than them today.

    60. Yeah I mean The Bucks will be in the playoffs for awhile because of Giannis, but the rest of their team is aging and their window to be elite is probably only a few more seasons although it will be easier to retool as long as they have Giannis, even without picks.

      Miami Hero and Bam are younger but the rest of their team is aging. Butler ain’t that young.

      Philly seems to be slipping backwards slowly. Harden ain’t young either.

      The Nets are imploding. Will still be a playoff team if they keep Durant but that is a big if. Simmons may never play again and Kyrie is certifiable.

      Boston is the one team that looks to be dominant for awhile. Toronto will be solid. The East has gotten a lot better this last year or so but I feel like it’s peaking. The Knicks are actually in an amazing spot with all of their young players and picks. People here may not see it but we are. not saying we’re ECF next year or anything crazy but it is not unrealistic to think in 2 or 3 seasons we can be at the top of the conference with the right moves.

    61. We are definitely a work in progress. We should be hoping for some combination of the following this year.

      1. Brunson fits in seamlessly, remains efficient, is penetrating and kicking out well, and finding Mitch

      2. RJ improves his FT%, finishes at the rim better, improves his shot selection and reads, and is benefiting from Brunson

      3. Quick improves his ability to penetrate and finish and his 3p% is benefitting from playing off the ball more with Rose and Brunson. It gets back to the same level as the prior year or better.

      4. Mitch improves his FT%, stays healthy, and work hard at both ends even though he just got paid

      5. Grimes comes back a better all around player and wins the starting role at some point

      6. Fournier benefits from playing with Brunson, gets more open looks, and has to create for himself less often. That would make him more tradable.

      7. Randle gets his head on straight, benefits from playing with Brunson, gets more open looks, and has to create for himself less often. That would make him more tradable.

      8. Obi is more consistent from 3 and creates off the dribble better. That could make Randle more expendable.

      9. Reddish stays healthy, focuses better on D, and improves his shot and shot selection.

      10. Hartenstein shows he can defend and be productive for more minutes

      11. Deuce shows he can be a viable backup and make shots in case there are injuries

      If a few of these players take a step forward it doesn’t just make us a better team. It makes them more valuable in any potential trade scenarios so we can take an even bigger next step.

    62. “People here may not see it but we are. not saying we’re ECF next year or anything crazy but it is not unrealistic to think in 2 or 3 seasons we can be at the top of the conference with the right moves.”

      I agree. We have several players 2-4 years away from their peak even before we do anything between now and then to improve the quality of the team. We aren’t going to make all those 1st round picks. An upgrade is eventually coming, We just don’t know who or when yet.

    63. But nobody disagrees that the Knicks could potentially be a ECF team in 2-3 years if they make the right moves, but the problem as always is what the hell are those, and will any of those moves present itself in a manner we can take advantage of?

      My point is precisely that the natural progression of this roster does not indicate a future contender, even in the “lucky” case where several of our young players develop well. So I’ll be happy when those right moves happen, if they do, and I hope Rose and this FO manages to do it. I’m skeptic, but I’m happy enough with this offseason to wait and see how it all develops.

    64. I agree. We have several players 2-4 years away from their peak even before we do anything between now and then to improve the quality of the team.

      You’re not wrong, but our young players don’t have cathedral ceilings. The only young player we have who you could say has “All Star” as his ceiling is RJ Barrett, and even that is really pushing it. I’d be pleased if RJ turned out to be an average NBA starter.

      Leon likes high floor players, and we have a handful of those. He is generally not interested in high risk/high ceiling types, and when you combine that with a lack of high picks, you end up with a lot of guys who will probably stick in the NBA but who also have no viable path to stardom.

      I think he has done well with the guys he has actually drafted, but it’s hard to see how any of the young Knicks become breakout stars.

    65. “People here may not see it but we are. not saying we’re ECF next year or anything crazy but it is not unrealistic to think in 2 or 3 seasons we can be at the top of the conference with the right moves.”

      Sure, but this is so vague as to be meaningless. Barring a superstar forcing his way to the team or getting extremely lucky and drafting a legit superstar later in the draft, I don’t see a realistic path. I can’t imagine anyone currently on the team being able to be the best player on a 55+ win team; it’s hard to imagine most of them being the 2nd best player on a 55+ win team.

    66. Yeah, if you’re looking at the current Eastern Conference standings, the Knicks roster pales compared to other teams, but if you look at “future” Eastern Conference teams, the Knicks’ young roster pales compared to them, as well. Like Stealers Wheel, they’re stuck in the middle. Not good enough to compete now, not enough young star talent to compete later.

      Unless, of course, some star player forces his way here or the Knicks draft the next Jokic with their remaining second round picks. Which, hey, I won’t lie, maybe that’ll happen. I’ve said over and over again that “Don’t screw up things and hope something fluky happens” has been a winning combination for teams in the past (not many teams, but some teams).

    67. Just for arguments sake what Superstar or all star caliber player would even become available for us in the next few years. Theres Mitchell who would cost a lot and Brunson is probably a better value right now.

      Other than that going down the list of top 40 BPM players I dont see one that would make us a serious contender and is realistic for us. Most of the development would have to come from RJ/Quick/Obi to raise our ceiling.

    68. You do have to give it to Leon— this approach, which will probably result in decent but not excellent Knicks teams for the next 3-5 years will almost certainly allow him to hang onto his job for a good long while.

    69. That’s what we should want. If he can give us decent teams and hold on to the job for awhile that will give him a chance to one day out together a real contender.

    70. Of course it’s vague. No one can accurately predict the future of the nba two or three seasons out. It’s hard enough to accurately predict the upcoming season. The point is that we’re positioned very well with our young core. There will be improvement there. We have lots of picks too. Stars become available all the time and no one can predict who the next one will be or how it will happen. Seemingly super content stars now can become uncontested real quick with an early playoff loss or losing a key supporting player either through free agency or injury. It literally happens two or three times a season and plus we don’t even fully know who the emerging stars of the league are going to be in a few seasons. If we’re good we’ll have a chance. And I’m not convinced we don’t already have one of those dudes on our roster.

      But you know. It would be so much more fun to suck indefinitely with the hopes of drafting a superstar! That plan ALWAYS works.

    71. The point is that we’re positioned very well with our young core.

      I have no idea where the “very” is coming from there, but to put it simply, even if you want to believe that (and I have no idea what it’s based on), they’re not positioned as well as the teams behind them, young core-wise, while not being as good as the teams currently ahead of them, current core-wise. It’s not an ideal combination.

      But you know. It would be so much more fun to suck indefinitely with the hopes of drafting a superstar! That plan ALWAYS works.

      It would have been nice had the Knicks tried it once even. They tried it for one season and it got them their highest ceiling player on the roster, and they then quickly abandoned it (“Okay, it did exactly what it was supposed to do, so let’s abandon this plan now.”).

    72. i’ve always imagined i love the great outdoors, truth is that i spend way too much time indoors for that to be true…

      for a time i lived above the monterey peninsula college…my balcony was in the woods…i’ve only had easy access to wooded areas a few times, same as river shoreline and ocean beaches…those were nice places to live…

      i remember spending time in new mexico close by the rio grande, and just feeling bad for that poor “river”…

      on long island i only spent a little time along the northshore, beautiful and rocky (as compared to the southshore anyway :)…only been out to the east end a few times…got a scuba license off the jersey shore, that was some dark water…

      nicest river i’ve lived next too was the neckar in germany, used to ride my bike along it on the weekends, vineyards and a lot of old stone structures…meat, cheese, bread, beer and a bike…i remember the area being very clean, old, and rustic…

    73. ***for arguments sake what Superstar or all star caliber player would even become available for us in the next few years***

      Dejounte Murray?

    74. “But you know. It would be so much more fun to suck indefinitely with the hopes of drafting a superstar! That plan ALWAYS works.”

      And this is what makes me stop engaging this discussion with you, because once again, literally not a single person said this in the replies to your analysis. Brian, me, jk47, vincoug and KevinR all responded with good arguments, yet you keep beating this strawman into oblivion while ignoring every possible argument. What’s the point of discussing then?

    75. But we’re not positioned better than really anyone else in the conference. This team really has very little high-end talent (would anyone be surprised if we miss the playoffs again?) and it’s nice to have future picks but, barring a miracle happening with the 2025 Milwaukee pick, none of them can be higher than 9th in any given draft. Plus, we just saw what a highly protected future 1st is worth in a trade last year: Cam Reddish, who hasn’t been good at basketball since he was in high school.

    76. As i was saying a couple of yrs ago
      Build the nest
      Steal the bird
      Get the chip
      Finally our nest is looking good
      We managed to steal a feisty hawk from Dallas and we’re looking for the bald eagle now!

      Pessimism, Hyperbole and Melodrama are needed for the sake of the dialogue but let’s be honest people…
      The Knicks are Back!
      Without any bams and booms!
      Just bing bongs

    77. If you’re not feeling that we’re positioned better than any other team in the league just by the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances then you’re probably still affected by the 20yrs past drought and fan misery.
      We just had a bing bong start and everyone’s was watching our situation while Brooklyn gathered 75 Hall of Famers and nobody gave a shit!

      The Knicks are the Shit people
      And The Good Knicks are Coming

      All we need is a Superstar with huge balls to stand the NYK special pressure and to make it happen

      #BALLS of STEEL WANTED#

    78. Isn’t it ironic that the same folks bemoaing that we don’t suck enough to reach for higher draft picks are glad we overpaid for a guy who will likely carry our otherwise shitty team over the 30 win mark on his 7’4″ wingspan? Isn’t letting good but not great young players walk for nothing what we actually should be doing so that we have a better chance of landing great not good players?

      Or is Mitch actually great enough that it’s disingenuous to say that we don’t have any great young players? Damn, it’s confusing around here.

      Same with Obi. If we’ve already concluded that he doesn’t have a cathedral ceiling, why should anyone give a shit whether he plays or not? Shouldn’t we be just be rooting for Randle to play 48 minutes and Obi zero minutes because it betters our draft position? Or better yet, trade Obi before any lingering perception that he has real upside is debunked?

      Isn’t playing RJ big minutes conducive to losing? Oh, right, not when he plays with Mitch who erases his mistakes. Wouldn’t it have been better to play Sims rather than pay Mitch?

      Shouldn’t folks want Cam to play over Grimes? I mean. Grimes will never be much good anyway and he’ll only screw up draft position.

      Yeah, it’s our young players that are actually fucking things up. They just don’t suck enough.

    79. Now if we had picked the 19th pick we d been much better but what can you do!?!?!?
      Shit happens!
      ;-ppp

    80. If you’re not feeling that we’re positioned better than any other team in the league just by the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances then you’re probably still affected by the 20yrs past drought and fan misery.

      How could they have 20 years of drought if the “the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances” had any major impact on things? Lebron James and Kevin Durant in their primes both saw “the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances” and said, “No thanks, I’m good.”

      To be fair, I think KD is just full of shit and he was coming here before he got hurt and felt he couldn’t dictate things to the superstar he was going to bring with him, but still, if “the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances” had the same impact that you think it does, then Jalen Brunson shouldn’t be the biggest free agent the Knicks have signed since…Tyson Chandler? STAT? Maybe even Allan Houston? Those are pretty much the only three major free agents the Knicks have signed in the past 30 years before Brunson.

    81. The true Q for me is not When or How but Who the Fuck will feel his balls so Heavy to try winning for the Knicks.
      If Giannis wasn’t so fkn Loyal I’d say He’d try it 100% but idk
      Curious to see who’d pull the Knickscalibur from the stone…

    82. “You’re not wrong, but our young players don’t have cathedral ceilings. The only young player we have who you could say has “All Star” as his ceiling is RJ Barrett, and even that is really pushing it. I’d be pleased if RJ turned out to be an average NBA starter.”

      I’m more optimistic on RJ than you, but I hear you.

      I think the reason we have 7 1st round draft picks in next 4 years is that Leon also knows the #1 option is probably still not on the team. I know it makes people uneasy to not know who we are going spend a lot of those picks on and when. It’s probably going to take a combination of picks and players to get where we have to go. All we can do is hope that the players we have (and maybe whoever we draft next year) look attractive enough with a pile of picks to land a very good young player in the next couple of years.

    83. Besides the power of the knicks fanbase and the economic chances any serious professional athlete should have a serious environment to work in.
      Looks like after 20yrs Leon has cleaned the house

    84. “It would have been nice had the Knicks tried it once even. They tried it for one season and it got them their highest ceiling player on the roster, and they then quickly abandoned it (“Okay, it did exactly what it was supposed to do, so let’s abandon this plan now.”).”

      In recent years they blew it up twice. They got KP the first time, had no pick the following year, KP got hurt, they blew it up again, got RJ, and the rest is history. I think the real issue is the use of cap space. You have to put someone in cap space. The Knicks immediately started looking for young players they thought could be productive and fit the long term plan (like Randle) and chose mercenaries for the rest if they couldn’t attract a player that fit the plan. The only real alternative is to take on terrible contracts for picks. Assuming those kinds of deals are available, it has the plus side of adding a draft asset, but you lose flexibility and you are assured of the rebuild taking a very long time. It also assumes you are willing to send those players to Siberia or they will also add some wins like the mercs. I think what it comes down to is that teams like OKC and some other smaller markets have no choice, but the Knicks do. They go for the quicker rebuild but have generally not done it well. They’ve made some terrible contract decisions like Hardaway/Baker and had difficulty getting over the hump to where they have a legit chance to attract a real star. So it has been rotating mercs. With some luck we get Towns or KP doesn’t get hurt or we get Morant etc…

    85. The problem with your dumb rant, Z-Man, is that the team is rather obviously going with a strategy of fighting for a low playoff seed, so at this point any rebuilding AKA “tanking” kind of moves don’t do a whole lot of good.

      If we were stripping the team to the studs, and THEN gave Mitchell Robinson a market value contract, yes, that would indeed be bad. But since we’re leaning into chasing that #8 seed, you might as well bring back a relatively young and productive player, because you’re not gonna be able to replace that value easily. You know, Bird Rights and all.

      The rest of your post was unhinged word salad straw mannery so it’s best left ignored.

    86. In recent years they blew it up twice. They got KP the first time, had no pick the following year, KP got hurt, they blew it up again, got RJ, and the rest is history.

      KP was an accidentank. RJ was the one time they went into a season intending to get a high draft pick (and to be fair to them, that draft was definitely the one to do it in, with Zion and Ja, two legit #1 level talents, at the top of the draft. And heck, the accidentank also was a nice draft to be bad in, as well, so we can’t say that the Knicks never get any luck. Imagine if the accidentank was in the year of the 2013 or 2014 drafts where the #4 picks were Cody Zeller and Aaron Gordon! 2014 would have been especially brutal, as it would have been Aaron Gordon one pick behind Joel Embiid!!).

    87. hopefully someone answers this question instead of actually making up questions for themselves to answer…

      if the knicks miss the playoffs the next two seasons…. should rose continue the job? when i say miss.. i mean even if the knicks gets to the playin game and loses each season…

      if the answer is yes … how long of a rope are you giving him to make the playoffs?

      genuinely curious about this answer for most folks here….

    88. Imagine us getting the 2013 Highest Draft and picking Anthony Bennett!
      This place would have been exploded for 1000yrs!
      The Bing Bang!

    89. Imagine us getting the 2013 Highest Draft and picking Anthony Bennett!
      This place would have been exploded for 1000yrs!
      The Bing Bang!

      Oh man, that would have been insane. I’d like to believe the Knicks would have picked someone else, but the other options weren’t great, either. Alex fucking Len was on top of a number of people’s big boards that year! But I think Nerlens Noel or Victor Oladipo were on top of most people’s boards, which would have made that number one pick make a bit more sense. Both of those guys are at least legit NBA rotation players.

    90. Actually think Z Man’s better point was that the pessimists are capping the ceilings of the younger players on the team. That’s pure conjecture. Can Obi Toppin not improve on his 2 BPM? Quickly on his multiple positive BPM seasons? Saying you know what those ceilings are is false. A 45-47 win team by definition has positive assets. That seems like a fairly attainable goal for the upcoming season.

    91. “if “the power of our hungry fanbase plus the knicks related economic chances” had the same impact that you think it does, then Jalen Brunson shouldn’t be the biggest free agent the Knicks have signed since…Tyson Chandler? STAT? Maybe even Allan Houston? Those are pretty much the only three major free agents the Knicks have signed in the past 30 years before Brunson.”

      This is fair, but it’s a start. For some of us, glass half full guys. it means something that a good player like Brunson would want to play here. Mitch could have gone elsewhere. The 450 players in the league saw how exciting those national TV games were vs. the Celts. They know how massive the Knicks fan base is…when they have a decent team to root for, the evidence can be seen and heard in both in the Mecca and in every road arena.

      The problem is that their dumb, mercurial, meddling owner hosted a faustar-fucking clown show. When he finally retreated a bit, he hired a doddering, arrogant ex-coach with a big mouth and triangle fever.

      Whether it ultimately works or not, at least the approach of this FO is significantly different than those that came before. They don’t say much, they have top-notch guys in scouting and capology, they work the phones looking for bargains, they find high-character, rootable guys in the draft. The only big splash they made is hiring Thibs, I would rather they had not, but it’s cap-neutral and correctable. And as Fred Katz pointed out, he is actually working diligently with the kids.

      Leon’s approach may or may not result in a contender any time soon, the jury is still out, but I am generally happy with wher we are at right now and optimistic about the future. I’m looking forward to seeing what these kids can do.

    92. #Oh man, that would have been insane. I’d like to believe the Knicks would have picked someone else, but the other options weren’t great, either. Alex fucking Len was on top of a number of people’s big boards that year!#

      Yeah! 2013 was a walking mindfield draft!
      But Bennet was a crater of an already exploded one!

    93. if the knicks miss the playoffs the next two seasons…. should rose continue the job? when i say miss.. i mean even if the knicks gets to the playin game and loses each season…

      There is no way he should stay if the team barely misses the playoffs in the next two seasons, no. No way at all. That’d be a crazy bad result for this team.

    94. Yeah! 2013 was a walking mindfield draft!
      But Bennet was a crater of an already exploded one!

      I still can’t figure what Cleveland was thinking there with that pick.

    95. if the knicks miss the playoffs the next two seasons…. should rose continue the job? when i say miss.. i mean even if the knicks gets to the playin game and loses each season…

      if the answer is yes … how long of a rope are you giving him to

      Don’t you want them to miss the playoffs to get more lottery picks?

    96. “The rest of your post was unhinged word salad straw mannery so it’s best left ignored.”

      Sorry about that, I must have consumed too much whine…

    97. Don’t you want them to miss the playoffs to get more lottery picks?

      i don’t control anything that happens to this team…

      you’re one i’m pretty curious about …. what’s your take? or is my question too unfair or something….

    98. #if the answer is yes … how long of a rope are you giving him to make the playoffs?#

      For me it’s not about LRose or about makin the playoffs or about getting to ECF while trading 25draft picks for KD.

      I want to see seriousness, culture continuity and perspective.
      So it’s not Playoffs stays
      No Playoffs Goes.
      Just like when coaches get the COTY award and get the boot right afterwards!

      When it’s time to go…You feel it!

    99. I’ve been pretty consistent in saying that I will give Leon until opening day 2023 and then recalibrate from there, barring either a disasterous or glorious move(s) before then. It’s been pretty clear to me all along that the 2023 offseason was their “big splash” target. Put differently, if only moves around the edges take place this year, I don’t think there’s a W-L outcome that would justify firing Leon. I expect this team to be an underdog for a 7-8 seed and probably a low lottery team next year. If we’re much better than that, it either means that Randle and RJ improved, Brunson made a bigger than expected impact, or the other young guys have stepped up. If we’re worse, then it means that a stellar performance on draft night would be that much more important, as well as cutting bait on RJ and Julius.

    100. #I still can’t figure what Cleveland was thinking there with that pick.#

      Paying homage to the Borat movies?
      Idk!

    101. When it’s time to go…You feel it!

      was last season good vibes? bad feels right? what about two more of those.. gotta be time then right?

    102. #was last season good vibes? bad feels right? what about two more of those.. gotta be time then right?#

      Just like Fizdale’s coaching rang Fire-alarm immediately LRose’s “experiments” won’t be without consequences.
      Last Season probably switched pages with his coach, got injury prone PG and Guard combo D-illiterate that fucked up the whole season imo
      Continuing this trend would have been enough for me to say GTFOH to Leon but as it seems with his latest moves he stopped fukin around and got young good D minded needed players so regained my trust.

      Every day is a new day!
      Live it to its fullest!

    103. I liked the signings of Brunson and Mitch and Hartenstein precisely because this franchise is never going to truly rebuild from the ground, so I’ll, somewhat begrudgingly, celebrate locking down talented young players to decent contracts because that’s a much better alternative than overpaying mediocre veterans or trading for sub-par pseudo stars. How hard it is to understand that?

      We all KNOW the Knicks will not intentionally tank, this discussion has been over since Thibs walked through the door, but you all have beaten this strawman to pieces so many times it’s barely recognizable anymore.

    104. Some of the Team Pollyanna arguments today are so weak it’s blatantly obvious their proponents are starting from the conclusion that everything is great and working backwards.

      As I’ve said many times now, if there was a league wide re-draft I think there is a very high chance the Knicks would be the last team to have a player selected. There was a 100% chance of this prior to the Spurs trade of Murray, now they’re the only team that might be after us. This of course was very intentional on their part–they’re tanking hard and by this time next year will almost certainly have a player more highly regarded than any of ours again, and made sure they accumulated tons of *unprotected* draft capital before arriving at this point.

      No one has ever even tried to dispute this when I’ve said it, so I’m assuming we all agree the Knicks would either be 29th or 30th.

      My question to Team Pollyanna is do you truly think that can be true, and it can also be true that we’re in an objectively good position?

      That seems downright irreconcilable, and especially so given that the Knicks have given themselves no clear way out of it. The Spurs’ path out of it is obvious, they want to make very high picks and probably for multiple consecutive years.

      Can it really be the case that our crop of high-level talent is that poor, we have no clear path to changing that, and that our position *relative to other teams in the league* (which is the only thing that matters, as opposed to our position relative to the 2007-2008 Knicks) is good?

    105. I am higher than a lot of people on our prospects as a team. I think Obi is a legit NBA starter and maybe more, I think Quickley is developing into a nice player. I see the upside in RJ and hope that he finally takes the big step, though I will acknowledge that he is running out of time and this year might be his last before I lose faith. I think Grimes is a rotation 3&D wing and I think Mitch is a top ten center. I also really like the signings of Brunson and Hartenstein.

      The problem I have with this team is not our failure to tank or us winning too many games it’s our unforced errors. We keep hiring GMs that think they have it figured out. They do not need to do what other GMs do, they can triangulate their way to success, or trade away all our future picks for marginal talent, or move all our 1st round picks for future capital because we have “too many young players already”.

      I don’t care if we win a title, winning a title requires a lot of luck. What I want to do is build a good team that competes and could someday win a title. I want to build like Memphis or Atlanta or Boston, I don’t want to build like the Nets or Lakers or Clippers.

      In a lot of ways we are fine, last offseason was rough but this one has been better, and hopefully, we move Randle and Rose and fully expunge the stink of our bad veteran contracts and truly embrace our youth.

      The thing that makes me sad is we could have 2 more players possibly just as good as Obi, Grimes, and IQ if we had simply made our picks instead of chasing this “future move” pipe dream. I want a team that acts like a team at this point of the win curve. We are at the draft young players, play young players part of the win curve and we seem to refuse to prioritize playing or drafting young players.

      I don’t want to tank. I am just tired of shortcuts and trying to game the system.

    106. “We all KNOW the Knicks will not intentionally tank, this discussion has been over since Thibs walked through the door”

      There’s hardly anyone on this board who wouldn’t have preferred a “ground up” rebuild, or a different coach than Thibs. However, some pretty much let it go and are perhaps overcelebrating the modest gains of the hybrid approach, while others have engaged in a tedious 2+ year lamentation about what could have been. I think here’s been plenty of straw man beating on both sides of the fence.

    107. Scherzer looking great in his return, of course they score no runs for him…

    108. i don’t control anything that happens to this team…

      This may surprise you but I don’t either. You still must have a preference between playoffs and a lottery pick.

      you’re one i’m pretty curious about …. what’s your take? or is my question too unfair or something….

      I don’t know what to tell you other than it depends on the moves he makes in the next 2 years. It’s not necessarily contingent on the playoffs.

      If the Knicks are still trotting out Randle & Fournier 36min a night, then fire him. If Rose continues to add draft picks, despite missing the playoffs, probably not. If the young players underwhelm, fire him. If Brunson turns out to be an overpay, fire him. If the Knicks draft a promising rookie or two in 2023 while grabbing extra draft capitalism, keep him. If his stash of draft picks and young players continues to underwhelm potential trade partners, fire him.

      The 3 draft picks he just acquired may not have conveyed yet. If you fire him and those 3 picks get the Knicks a superstar, did you make a mistake firing him?

    109. “I am higher than a lot of people on our prospects as a team. I think Obi is a legit NBA starter and maybe more, I think Quickley is developing into a nice player. I see the upside in RJ and hope that he finally takes the big step, though I will acknowledge that he is running out of time and this year might be his last before I lose faith. I think Grimes is a rotation 3&D wing and I think Mitch is a top ten center. I also really like the signings of Brunson and Hartenstein.”

      I agree with most of this. I might be a bit lower on RJ, but I also think Obi has an outside shot at making an all-star team. There are aspects of the job I’ve never denied Rose has done well, for example I think he’s gotten above-average value out of the picks he’s actually cared to make (which is part of the reason all the incineration is so frustrating).

      The problem is at the end of the day the cliche that the NBA is a star’s league is true and things like getting 12th pick value out of the 25th pick, while important in their own right, can really only get you so far. For that reason I think every GM should either have a top 15 or so guy(s) or have a plan to get one(s) that goes beyond “hope one demands a trade at some point while your roster gets more expensive.”

    110. TNFH, I am not sure if I’m on team Pollyanna. I don’t think this year’s team will be great but I suspect it will be mostly fun to watch and competitive. I also think it’s likely the team will improve over the next few years. Does this make a Pollyanna?

      Will they become a contender? I don’t know. But I do think they have a strategy and they are executing it. They are not counting on getting lucky in the draft or being able to trade for a superstar. Instead they are acquiring lots of young players could turn into stars and developing them. This could work. Already Quickley and Toppin have improved a lot and they are still young and could improve some more. Not all their players are in this category but I think you can include those two along with Robinson, Sims, Hartenstein, Reddish, Grimes, Barrett, Keels and maybe also Brunson in this group. Some of these players may disappoint, but some may surprise us. There’s enough of them that the chance of getting a really valuable player from one of them in the future is pretty good. This is actually how Miami operates ( except for hiring Butler).

      Fans tend to assume a player is what he is and that’s what you’ll get in the future. Wiggins is bad and overpaid and will never amount to anything, for example. LeBron is great, of corse any team should want him at age 39 and commit to a huge salary for several years. This just isn’t a good assumption. Fans also don’t believe a player is better if they don’t actually see it. But look how Obi improved without playing much. I have faith that similar improvement is happening for other Knicks, but we just don’t see it yet.

    111. “Chet is way too good for summer league ball”

      Was about to say, switched over to that game since the Yankees were boring and oh boy I wish that guy was a Knick

    112. The 3 draft picks he just acquired may not have conveyed yet. If you fire him and those 3 picks get the Knicks a superstar, did you make a mistake firing him?

      you would have fired steve mills also no? even if that is a no…. he’s not picking them so it’s irrelevant.. you’re judged on what you put on the roster and not just what you accumulated especially since he’s spent so much of his energy building a roster that can win NOW….

      I don’t know what to tell you other than it depends on the moves he makes in the next 2 years. It’s not necessarily contingent on the playoffs.

      so it’s an unfair question? what standard are you judging him on if not win totals if that’s what he’s building towards? he signed all those vets last year to get … 37 wins… he signed jalen brunson and gave him this big contract why?

      leon rose has had 3 offseasons thus far which should be enough to judge any executive on a normal team but we’re the knicks he gets judged on the knicks curve… so if in 4 seasons if he can only produce 1 playoff win off the backs of flukish performances when he’s TRYING to win… then what exactly was he hired for? bringing in a star? he’s had at least a dozen chances since he’s gotten here… and it doesn’t look likely to happen in another offseason…

      i’ve asked a pretty straight question and aside from Brian it’s mostly wishy washy answers… and i think that speaks volumes especially when we talk about great ‘direction’… what direction are we going if we can’t even make the playoffs when given ample opportunity? how many franchises give their GM that much rope? i see the same people making fun of hinkie for not trying to win and all of a sudden get all wellaksually on it’s not about the playoffs…

      pretty funny if you ask me….

    113. Your wife gave you 3 children
      She’s a Nets fan
      She’s making more money than you
      She’s 20 pounds heavier than when you were married
      Will you divorce her?

    114. #My question to Team Pollyanna is do you truly think that can be true, and it can also be true that we’re in an objectively good position?#

      We’re much better than the 29th team.
      And we’re going to be even better.
      Your fantasy re-draft is CassandraDepressed one!

    115. Despite my opinion that Rose and company do have a strategy, are executing it, and that the team will continue to get better, it still hurts seeing other team’s hot shot young players they got in the last draft or two do great in summer league.

    116. Last 2 seasons i wanted a badass D-oriented PG and Lowry, Van Vleet and even Schroeder! were the best ones available imo
      We got what we got and played as we played…

      This season that we got our own Tough Bad MF PG why not be happy?
      Cause we traded away the 68th pick?
      ;-p

    117. so it’s an unfair question? what standard are you judging him on if not win totals if that’s what he’s building towards?

      No. It’s a question that requires nuance to answer.

      The standard for a GM should be making good moves that make sense with a team’s timeline. These goals can change. Last year, after making the 4 seed it made sense to push for the playoffs again. Now, it’s getting younger and adding draft picks. Rose accomplished that this offseason.

      There must be standard for making good moves other than wins because you’re explicitly advocating for a strategy judged independently of wins. The Knicks have a young roster and excess draft picks, it’s not all-in win now. If it was, then the standard you suggest would be a fair standard.

      If you want a test over the next 2 years, this is as specific as I’m willing to get:

      If the Knicks get younger and add draft picks, then keep him around.

      While missing the playoffs if they (1) sign or trade for older players or (2) make other significant mistakes, fire him.

      What would Rose need to do for you not to fire him? Would the only solution be blowing up the whole team, including young players who win games (Obi, IQ, Grimes, etc)? You’d fire him even if he did make the playoffs.

      i’ve asked a pretty straight question

      Again, it requires a nuanced response if the answer is anything other than no. You’re dismissing any nuance as wishy-washy. I asked a more straightforward question that requires no hypotheticals and you refused to answer it.

    118. I have so little faith in Dolan’s hiring abilities I definitely wouldn’t regard it as good news if Rose was fired anytime soon

    119. Chet’s handles are a lot more impressive than what I expected, and even though this Jazz SL team might be the one of the worst I’ve ever seen he’s been pretty impressive.

    120. you would have fired steve mills also no? even if that is a no…. he’s not picking them so it’s irrelevant.. you’re judged on what you put on the roster and not just what you accumulated especially since he’s spent so much of his energy building a roster that can win NOW….

      Also dodges the question while ignoring some very staggering differences between the 2 regimes. This is extreme reductionism when reducing the problem to a single issue is nonsensical.

    121. As I’ve said many times now, if there was a league wide re-draft I think there is a very high chance the Knicks would be the last team to have a player selected. There was a 100% chance of this prior to the Spurs trade of Murray, now they’re the only team that might be after us.

      Would it be better for the Knicks to have traded for Murray? They certainly could have beaten the Hawks offer if they so chose.

      Why is this a good test? There’s teams that have better players but do worse than us and have fewer picks.

    122. how is that a dodge? that was a very detailed answer that just so happened to include something else but is irrelevant if you disagree with it…

      If you want a test over the next 2 years, this is as specific as I’m willing to get:

      If the Knicks get younger and add draft picks, then keep him around.

      shouldn’t the young players on the team do something? he’s picked most of these young players too right?

      While missing the playoffs if they (1) sign or trade for older players or (2) make other significant mistakes, fire him.

      does jalen brunson not count? he’s going to be 26 this season and 30 by the end of the contract… isn’t the idea to win some games with him? if that’s not it.. what is the idea with jalen brunson? are we looking at him like quickley and grimes then?

    123. “Why is this a good test? There’s teams that have better players but do worse than us and have fewer picks.”

      It’s not meant to be a ranking of teams’ general positioning, since for example I think the Spurs are better positioned than us. It’s just telling as to our current level of high-end talent. It thus wouldn’t be a huge deal if we, like the Spurs, recognized this problem and resolved to make high picks for the foreseeable future.

      The problem is the combination of the lack of high-end talent, the refusal to address that though the draft, and the complete lack of foreseeable opportunities to address it another way on the horizon. It really does boil down to “hope something completely out of our control happens.” It’s just not a very confidence inspiring vision to me, but who knows, maybe something completely out of our control will happen.

    124. Luck is a combination of being prepared to take advantage of a good opportunity. That’s all luck is. Luck happens more often for people who work hard and are ready for the opportunities that present themselves. If we have a team with a lot of young players, a lot of draft picks and are a competitive team with a good culture, the right opportunity will come along in good time. Leon (and us) will know it when we see it.

    125. We have the Ferrari and the six pack
      Now we wait for the super model
      That easy!

    126. problem is the combination of the lack of high-end talent, the refusal to address that though the draft, and the complete lack of foreseeable opportunities to address it another way on the horizon. It really does boil down to “hope something completely out of our control happens.”

      How are excess draft picks weighed in this formula? Accumulating draft capital is not out of our control. Putting together trade offers are not out of our control. If we wanted to beat ATL, we could’ve. Some teams can outbid us, but not all of them.

    127. DJ what the hell are you talking about? Not make the playoffs despite ample opportunities? They made the playoffs once and didn’t make it another time. That’s two seasons, one playoffs one not. I mean you sound a little unhinged with this pessimism. The next season hasn’t even started yet and you’re acting like it’s written in stone we’re missing the playoffs again. Why? Cause a bunch of pundits say we’re only a play in team after signing Brunson? Fuck that noise. They don’t know shit.

    128. I don’t have a problem with the pessimists, the tragedians or even the provocateurs since they “help” discussion but let’s face it bros…
      This season looks like YOU are on the hill ready to die! Polyannas are on vacation!

    129. shouldn’t the young players on the team do something? he’s picked most of these young players too right?

      It doesn’t exclude it. If they’re not making the playoffs, they probably aren’t improving that much.

      It also excludes blowing everything up for a prolonged tank, which I assume you’d prefer.

      does jalen brunson not count? he’s going to be 26 this season and 30 by the end of the contract… isn’t the idea to win some games with him? if that’s not it.. what is the idea with jalen brunson? are we looking at him like quickley and grimes then?

      That’s a 4yr window, not a 2yr window.

      Brunson is young enough to contribute to the next competitive Knicks team. It may even be on his second Knicks contract.

      I’m not ruling out the possibility the Knicks make the playoffs, I’m just conforming to the hypothetical. There’s ways for Brunson to help the Knicks be competitive within 2yrs.

      There’s scenarios where the Knicks make the playoffs and I’d still fire Rose. Playoffs aren’t the standard I’d use.

    130. DJ what the hell are you talking about? Not make the playoffs despite ample opportunities? They made the playoffs once and didn’t make it another time.

      what question do you think was being asked? maybe try following along before taking out some of that anger on an imaginary argument…. some ppl would even call that unhinged….

    131. There’s scenarios where the Knicks make the playoffs and I’d still fire Rose. Playoffs aren’t the standard I’d use.

      you’re thinking way too hard… it’s a very simple question that i’m not sure why it’s so hard to answer..

      It doesn’t exclude it. If they’re not making the playoffs, they probably aren’t improving that much.

      It also excludes blowing everything up for a prolonged tank, which I assume you’d prefer.

      why does rose get to continue when he (hypothetically) couldn’t build a sustainably winning team? no other GM gets to rebuild after putting together the roster without putting up significant results themselves…. and Rose has done nothing near what Presti achieved… you usually get one shot to build a roster and you’re judged based off of that and after RJ’s extension… Rose will be responsible for every single dollar going into that cap…

      if you can’t judge him based off of the collection he put together… then what are you judging him on?

      that’s why i asked the question …. it doesn’t seem like you guys even know what you’re judging it on either.. just that it’s Leon Rose and he gives you the feels….

      i don’t even know what standard you’re judging him on.. you’re judging him on.. making transactions? it’s ok if he never makes the playoffs as long as he doesn’t sign someone over 30? isn’t that what Steve Mills did too?

      confusing to say the least…

    132. 1-5, we’re really not that great, even with Brunson. Brunson/Fournier/RJ/Randle/Robinson looks like two average starters and three below average starters to me, unless Fluke Julius and Empty Arena RJ return. Which I suppose is not out of the question.

      1-10 though, we’re pretty good, as all five of the main backups are almost as good as the starters. Some of the pieces fit together awkwardly and overall you get the feeling that the sum of the parts are greater than the whole.

    133. if you can’t judge him based off of the collection he put together… then what are you judging him on?

      Do draft picks not count as part of the collection? Why not?

      and Rose has done nothing near what Presti achieved

      This is very black and white. It takes time to accumulate assets and one can do so without accumulating as many as Presti.

      Presti flubbed his shot with KD, Harden, and Westbrook. He got a 2nd chance.

      that’s why i asked the question …. it doesn’t seem like you guys even know what you’re judging it on either..

      i don’t even know what standard you’re judging him on.. you’re judging him on.. making transactions?

      Making good moves and avoiding bad ones. I said as much.

      i don’t even know what standard you’re judging him on.. you’re judging him on.. making transactions?

      Yes. GMs make transactions. What do you want him judged on? Not all transactions are about winning immediately. Spurs got 3 picks for Murray and positioned themselves well for what appears to be a talented draft.

      it’s ok if he never makes the playoffs as long as he doesn’t sign someone over 30?

      2yrs isn’t never. And this still isn’t the standard I’m using.

      There’s a difference between a 19yo, a 21yo, a 26yo, etc… Under 30 is a pretty wide range.

      isn’t that what Steve Mills did too?

      No. And there’s some obvious other differences that you’re brushing over.

    134. You insist that Rose is building a win-now team that must make the playoffs in 2yrs. I don’t buy that premise and your misunderstanding of my position stems from your refusal to consider that the premise is wrong.

      If you continue to believe that premise is correct, that’s fine. I have no issue with believing in a different premise. But you’re just refusing to acknowledge the alternative is ever palatable. This is also fine, but the discussion isn’t going to move past that sticking point.

    135. you’re thinking way too hard… it’s a very simple question that i’m not sure why it’s so hard to answer..

      Simple questions don’t always produce simple answers. Please stop with the rhetoric.

    136. haven’t made it through the whole thread, but i just got to say – i’m a sucker for spicy dj phan…i missed you a bunch…bunch of other folks feel the same…

      one of the more memorable occurrences here at kb for me was when you finally started being a little truer to yourself, and started letting a little more of your competitive nature show…both you and milo hid it really well, for a long time…al and BC have some of the best control in that area that i’ve seen…

      i’ll just say this though – a little bit of dj phan is a whole lot better than no dj phan…please, be careful sir…

      winning in conversations has very little to do with statistics and facts…being smart doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be clever…clever is winning conversations…

      my dad was a clever man, read a lot, not really that smart though…man, he didn’t even make it past the 9th grade before they kicked him out of school…he did serve for a while…

      always thought of the term clever as derogatory, maybe it’s not…but yeah, smart and clever ain’t the same thing…

    137. If we make the playoffs with Obi starting and IQ and Grimes both playing huge roles then this season will be a success and I will applaud Leon.

      However if Randle, Rose, and Fournier get more minutes than Toppin, IQ, and Grimes then this season is a complete failure and we need to fire Leon. I don’t care if we win 55 games with all-nba Randle if he isn’t gone then this season is a failure.

    138. DJphan, I’ve got to say, the answer of course is: it depends. One judges front offices both by their accomplishments and by the details of their actions. Consider the Nets front office. They tried what many posters here think of as one of the main paths to a contender and they executed on it. They successfully hired or traded for big name stars. And they have been in playoff series each of the last four seasons. By your implied criteria, that’s good and Tsai should keep Sean Marks around. I’m not so sure. They have a mess on their hands and it’s of Sean Marks’ own making. He has been the GM since 2016. He fired Atkinson in 2020 because Atkinson wanted to play Allen at center instead of Durant’s friend. I’m sure that set a bad precedent with the players. Then he hired Nash. I realize that Nash had difficult personalities to deal with but he didn’t deal with them well, judging by their results. When Kyrie refused to get vaccinated he didn’t trade Kyrie to some city that accepted that stand, which would have been easier to do then than now and saved a lot of trouble in the long term. In short, he seems to be letting the players run the asylum. You can make a strong case he should be fired.

      On the other hand, consider the 76ers. They went five years without being in the playoffs. Their GM was fired, but I’m really not sure he should have been.

    139. Knew Your Nicks
      July 5, 2022 at 11:37 pm
      I don’t have a problem with the pessimists, the tragedians or even the provocateurs since they “help” discussion but let’s face it bros…
      This season looks like YOU are on the hill ready to die! Polyannas are on vacation!

      i was pretty sure “tragedians” was a made up word, but – good job sir, you dug deep to pull that one out…outstanding…

    140. so soon the day will begin, and this stuff will wash away…okay then, for myself, clever and cunning are pretty much the same…in both cases, the question of trust arises…

      that may just be a me thing though – i can kind of see how clever and cunning could be put to good use…perhaps…maybe…i don’t know…probably not…

    141. The condescension towards those who hold the position that using the off season to improve the roster so we will win more games next season is perplexing.

    142. “However if Randle, Rose, and Fournier get more minutes than Toppin, IQ, and Grimes then this season is a complete failure and we need to fire Leon. I don’t care if we win 55 games with all-nba Randle if he isn’t gone then this season is a failure.”

      If the Knicks win 55 games and they do it on the backs of Randle, Rose and Fournier, and Randle reverts to all-NBA form, it would be considered one of the great coaching and GMing jobs in Knicks history. That would be like COYT/EOTY stuff.

      Of course, this is an impossibility and the proposition is absurd. If they win 55 games, or even 45 games, it would not only take a resurgent Julius, a productive Fournier and a healthy Rose, it would take an improved RJ, a healthy Mitch, an all-star level Brunson, and major contributions from at least 2 of Grimes, Obi, IQ and Hart. Whatever the minutes distributions, enough wins to be in the top 6 would be a huge accomplishment no matter how it was done.

      I get the love for Obi and IQ but come on, keep it real.

    143. The X-factor in the conversation about Leon is Thibs. The question of what it would take to get Thibs fired is much more valid of a proposition. I think his job is on the line this year. Back in February it was clear that WWW blamed Thibs for the Knicks’ poor performance, and it seemed that after the all-star break, Thibs felt the pressure and reluctantly (and too slowly) shifted gears a bit, with some success on the court.

      Given that tension and the near certainty that the Knicks are at best a play-in candidate, and possibly on the outside looking in again, I think there’s a very real possibility that Thibs is let go at the first sign that things are going sideways again, and I don’t see him surviving a non-playoff season. If the kids aren’t playing enough and Julius sucks again, Thibs should be gone.

      If they don’t make the playoffs and Leon retains Thibs, then the likelyhood of Leon getting fired would increase dramatically. But I think Leon is smart enough to know that and I would bet that he would make the move, even if only out of concern for his job. Hopefully it will be more because he realizes that Thibs has outlived his usefulness to the rebranding effort.

      OTOH, Thibs knows that this is his last, best chance for a long-term coaching gig. It will be interesting to see how much he adapts, given his history of stubbornness. To me, that’s the big story of 2022-23.

    144. This Nets situation is really so fascinating in the age of the empowered superstar.
      Basically – it sounds like KD/Kyrie came to the Nets because they found a team they could play on together, be out of the spotlight, and basically run the show. They get Atkinson fired for Deandre Jordan, they likely force Marks to trade the house for Harden. Then Kyrie blows off an entire season+, then has the gall to say the famous “we will manage the team with Sean and Joe”, and KD tries to force the Nets to give Kyrie the big contract. Nets say no and within a few days, KD asks out. What a horror show.

    145. I think there are two main reasons KD and Kyrie chose the Nets:
      1) the Nets had a much better supporting cast.
      2) the Knicks were very reluctant to supermax KD off of his achilles injury at his age; the Nets were all for it.
      Those are two excellent reasons, and if you combine that with 20 years of lolKnicks and Dolan, it was a no-brainer.

      It is dumb luck that it didn’t work out, especially after they acquired Harden. KD’s toe being too short and COVID derailed what should have been a sure 3-year dynastic run. Knicks fans don’t benefit much from luck with ping pong balls, but they should thank their lucky stars for the Nets’ demise.*

      *even without KD and Kyrie they still might be better than us, but I digress…

    146. RJ was the one time they went into a season intending to get a high draft pick (and to be fair to them, that draft was definitely the one to do it in, with Zion and Ja, two legit #1 level talents, at the top of the draft. And heck, the accidentank also was a nice draft to be bad in, as well, so we can’t say that the Knicks never get any luck.

      By far, the most fucked up and unlucky thing that ever happened to the Knicks was when — after 30 years of shameless tanking from everyone except us — the NBA flattened the lottery odds to prevent tanking the one time we tanked. It’s hard to fathom how unlucky that really was. We’d have had something like a 40% chance to get Zion or Ja. Instead we had 14% and two teams from the middle of the lottery pack (where we usually would have been) got them.

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