Knicks Morning News (2022.07.02)

  • Knicks Listed as Favorites to Land LeBron James in Betting Odds – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:45:04 AM

    Knicks Listed as Favorites to Land LeBron James in Betting Odds  Heavy.com

  • NBA free agency winners/losers: Zion Williamson scores, Rudy Gobert to Wolves a win-win, Warriors take a hit – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:45:00 AM

    NBA free agency winners/losers: Zion Williamson scores, Rudy Gobert to Wolves a win-win, Warriors take a hit  CBS Sports

  • 2022 NBA free agency tracker: Zach LaVine, Bradley Beal agree to supermax deals; Knicks land Jalen Brunson – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 11:51:00 PM

    2022 NBA free agency tracker: Zach LaVine, Bradley Beal agree to supermax deals; Knicks land Jalen Brunson  CBS Sports

  • 2022 NBA free agency rumors: Live updates as Zach Lavine, Bulls agree on max deal; savvy Celtics make moves – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 11:51:00 PM

    2022 NBA free agency rumors: Live updates as Zach Lavine, Bulls agree on max deal; savvy Celtics make moves  CBS Sports

  • Knicks Rumors: Evan Fournier Continues to Be Discussed in Trade Talks – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 7:14:50 PM

    Knicks Rumors: Evan Fournier Continues to Be Discussed in Trade Talks  Bleacher Report

  • The Knicks Finally Got a Real Point Guard – The Ringer
    [www.theringer.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 7:12:32 PM

    The Knicks Finally Got a Real Point Guard  The Ringer

  • The Jazz are reportedly not interested in trading Donovan Mitchell after trading Rudy Gobert. And that’s OK! – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 6:28:33 PM

    The Jazz are reportedly not interested in trading Donovan Mitchell after trading Rudy Gobert. And that’s OK!  Posting and Toasting

  • Carmelo Anthony Return to Knicks Has Been ‘On the Table,’ per Report – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 5:01:50 PM

    Carmelo Anthony Return to Knicks Has Been ‘On the Table,’ per Report  Sports Illustrated

  • Carmelo Anthony Rumors: Latest Buzz Surrounding Potential Knicks Reunion – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 4:50:28 PM

    Carmelo Anthony Rumors: Latest Buzz Surrounding Potential Knicks Reunion  Bleacher Report

  • After Rudy Gobert Trade, Could Donovan Mitchell Be Knicks-Bound? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 4:14:28 PM

    After Rudy Gobert Trade, Could Donovan Mitchell Be Knicks-Bound?  Sports Illustrated

  • The Knicks Remain a Work in Progress – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 4:07:27 PM

    The Knicks Remain a Work in Progress  Sports IllustratedAgents – New York Knicks, Jalen Brunson agree to 4-year, $104M deal  ESPNDerek Harper promises Knicks fans will love Jalen Brunson: ‘Guy is just special’  New York Post Jalen Brunson NBA free agency 2022: Point guard, Knicks agree to 4-year, $104 million deal  Yahoo SportsJalen Brunson To Sign Four-Year Contract With Knicks  hoopsrumors.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Analyzing the Knicks’ moves in 2022 NBA free agency and beyond | The Putback with Ian Begley – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 3:24:16 PM

    Analyzing the Knicks’ moves in 2022 NBA free agency and beyond | The Putback with Ian Begley  Yahoo Sports

  • Chris Russo Says 1994 Rangers/Knicks Postseason Was Mike and the Mad Dog’s Springboard – Barrett Sports Media
    [www.barrettsportsmedia.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 2:34:01 PM

    Chris Russo Says 1994 Rangers/Knicks Postseason Was Mike and the Mad Dog’s Springboard  Barrett Sports Media

  • Malcolm Brogdon Traded to Knicks Division – NBA Tracker – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 2:14:07 PM

    Malcolm Brogdon Traded to Knicks Division – NBA Tracker  Yardbarker

  • RJ Barrett is enjoying the Knicks’ NBA free agency moves – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 12:49:00 PM

    RJ Barrett is enjoying the Knicks’ NBA free agency moves  New York Post

  • New York Knicks keeping Mitchell Robinson after agreeing to four-year, $60M deal, agents say – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 10:49:36 AM

    New York Knicks keeping Mitchell Robinson after agreeing to four-year, $60M deal, agents say  ESPNMitchell Robinson breaks Knicks’ infamous ‘Charlie Ward curse’ by signing second contract with team  CBS SportsMitchell Robinson Breaks a Lasting Knicks Curse  Sports IllustratedWith Mitchell Robinson’s re-signing, Knicks lock in Tom Thibodeau’s defensive ideal  The AthleticReports: Mitchell Robinson, Knicks reach agreement on 4-year deal  NBA.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Jalen Brunson Is Off To The New York Knicks – SportsGrid
    [www.sportsgrid.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 9:35:01 AM

    Jalen Brunson Is Off To The New York Knicks  SportsGrid

  • Ep. 157 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Friday, July 1, 2022 9:00:00 AM

    Ep. 157 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast  Posting and Toasting

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    136 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.07.02)”

    1. Holding out the T-Wolves as some kind of tanking success has to be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. They were terrible for years, got loads of high lottery picks, but couldn’t put together a very good team. They got the #1 pick for Towns (never a certainty in the lottery), had him for years, had lottery picks after him, but couldn’t doing anything serious. The thing that turned them around was everyone getting hurt and getting the #1 pick again (again no certainty) to get Edwards. We can use that strategy too. Let’s hope RJ, Brunson, Quick, and Mitch all get hurt, tank again, pray we get #1 again (which we probably won’t) and maybe that will work. We almost had a chance at that kind of thing when KP was hurt. That’s the only reason we got RJ, but we traded KP. The T-Wolves have been an epic tanking failure, but if you wait long enough eventually you’ll get lucky a bunch of times.

    2. On his podcast with Kevin Pelton, Zach Lowe said that while Brunson is a slight overpay and likely tops out at the middle of the pack of starting point guards, he thinks it’s a decent move that will help our young guys. He also said phoenix and Minnesota getting good faster than expected likely messed with Leon’s initial plan to trade for Booker and/or KAT, but said that ultimately, execution of individual moves can matter more than a grand plan, and he and Pelton feel like the Rose regime as a whole has done well with executing, even factoring in last summer’s mess. (Zach also admitted he was way off on thinking those deals were smart.)

    3. Which PGs would I rather have than Brunson on their respective contracts (if more than Brunson) or at the same money as Brunson?

      Steph, Luka (not really a PG), Ja, Trae, Dame, Shai (not really a PG), maybe Maxey, maybe LaMelo. maybe Jrue. maybe Garland. Maybe Dejounte.

      On the “maybe’s” I would need to see how Brunson plays for us as our undisputed lead guard before passing judgment. There’s evidence on both sides of how playing as Doncic’s sidekick affected Brunson’s standing as a PG vs. rest of league. I think there’s a realistic chance of him being considered a top-10 PG by midseason, maybe not in the court of public opinion but by the numbers.

    4. I like the moves we made, but it’s daunting when you start comparing rosters around the league. I’m usually fairly positive, but there aren’t many teams that are definitely worse than us AND have worse young prospects.

      The Bulls are maybe even with us as they get older and stay defensively challenged. Charlotte (thanks to Bridges going crazy) is probably worse than us despite having a much better young player in LaMelo. Washington is even with us at best and Brooklyn is tbd. The bottom of the East has better prospects, although Indy and Orlando are both still a messy work in progress. In other words, I think we are still a play-in team right now, and Detroit or other lottery winners could catch up with us in a year or two.

      The West is even tougher. Only Sacto is definitely worse with fewer prospects and Utah/Portland could also both be on our level as of now. Meanwhile, cellar dwellers Houston and OKC clearly have better prospects.

      Honestly, I’m not sure what the answer is — be patient with this core and keep drafting prospects or bundle our picks for a “star.” But if we go the star route, it has to be for a legit 2-way star… I don’t think Spida gets it done. I guess we are doing a combo of those methods.

      So basically, I think we’re still a lottery team unless we see some positive unlikely outcomes, such as RJ or other younger players improving a lot or Randle returning to 2020-21 form.

    5. About to drive 3,000 miles back home across the country with a Covid-infested child, rather than fly — road trip! Just wanted to note that the one big problem with waiting for a disgruntled star is that they’re almost always assholes. I suspect a lot of professional athletes are assholes, but the disgruntled star mix seem to be the cream of the crop. Harden, Kyrie… It’s a nice idea on paper, but the result might cause indigestion. For years.

    6. What Minnesota shows is just how big a margin of error you’re provided with if you build through the draft. They nailed two high picks and are now arguably a top 5 team in the league. This is despite the fact that they:

      -Maxed Andrew Wiggins
      -Took Adreian Payne 15th overall
      -Took Kris Dunn 5th overall
      -Gave Jeff Teague a hilariously huge contract
      -Traded Jimmy Butler for scraps
      -Took Jarrett Culver 6th overall

      Yet here they are, about to have a more successful season than we’ve had in the 2000s on the strength of two high picks.

      When you turn your nose at the draft, on the other hand, any mistake can completely derail you. See Randle, Julius…

    7. “So basically, I think we’re still a lottery team unless we see some positive unlikely outcomes, such as RJ or other younger players improving a lot or Randle returning to 2020-21 form.”

      I agree that on paper coming off of last year, we are at best a play-in team and probably a late lottery team. But there are some possible x-factors that might raise that ceiling.

      We currently have exactly 3 likely rotation players with more than 4 years of experience in the league: Randle, Fournier, and Rose. It is possible that one or more of them are gone before we go into the season. Barring that, the latter two pretty much are what they are, but Julius is a huge question mark. Is another all-NBA season possible? It happened once, can it happen again? We’ll see.

      Of our players with 4 years experience, Brunson, Mitch and Hartenstein all have more theoretical upside.

      RJ is in a make-or-break year. How will these 6 months of offseason affect his efficiency in a repeat of the larger role he took on last year? We’ll see.

      IQ, Obi and Grimes are fine young prospects with undetermined ceilings. Folks have already ruled out the possibility that they will be anything beyond quality role players. This year will also be telling on that front. Again, what are they adding this offseason to build on the high note they ended the year on?

    8. A tank isnt viable for this team this season and probably wasnt viable last year. We were better with the young players and the vets were the ones holding us back. If Thibs hadnt been so hard headed with Burks at PG and Randle we are probably a play in team at the least.

      The plan obviously isnt to run with a Brunson, Randle, RJ core for the next 3 years and I dont know why people keep assuming it will be. Theres still moves to be made like getting off of Randle, Fournier and Rose and I’d be a lot more optimistic about the team if 2 of them managed to be moved.

    9. Or sorry. 6 years? I assume you mean KAT and Edwards? KAT was drafted in 2015 and Edwards in 2021. That’s 6 years. That’s longer than the process. Seems ridiculous to hold them up as some great example of being patient and building through the draft.

      Also they literally have taken themselves out of the draft for the next like 6 years by trading for Gobert. It looks like a great front court on paper but what if gobert and kat don’t get along or it just doesn’t work for reasons? What if they top out as a second round exit? Gobert is 30 years old. He ain’t exactly young.

    10. I think we are probably a play-in tram this coming season, but strange things can happen. Last season the bottom team in the East for the play-in played 0.524 ball. I think we can do that, mostly because I have faith that we aren’t repeating the Kemba experiment.

    11. “Seems ridiculous to hold them up as some great example of being patient and building through the draft.”

      This is pretty much the opposite of what I did. My point is that hitting on just two high picks afforded them a massive amount of leeway they’ve finally parlayed into being a contender.

      When you forgo high picks, you have no such leeway. They Wolves have been objectively very stupid for the past 10 years or so, maybe even stupider than us, and yet they became contenders before us because the one thing they did better than us was avail themselves of high picks.

    12. “Yet here they are, about to have a more successful season than we’ve had in the 2000s on the strength of two high picks….When you forgo high picks, you have no such leeway. They Wolves have been objectively very stupid for the past 10 years or so, maybe even stupider than us, and yet they became contenders before us because the one thing they did better than us was avail themselves of high picks.”

      Again, you conveniently skip over all the teams that lapped them several times over the last 10 years without a single consequential pick in the top 3 in the draft, or the amount of luck it took for Minny to have those two #1 picks, or the fact that they are now deviod of draft capital or cap room should this plan not lead to even a finals appearance (which I doubt that it will.)

      The Knicks aren’t where they are because they haven’t picked in the top 3 in the draft enough times. They are where they are because they picked Frank Ntilikina over (take your pick) and Kevin Knox over (take your pick.) They are where they are because they hired Phil Jackson as a savior only to watch him triangle the team into the abyss. They are where they are because when they actually did finish with the worst record they picked 3rd in a two-player draft, while the top two players went to teams with better records and lower odds.

      Meanwhile, Minny twice got a #1 pick with a 25% chance over our 20% chance and with a 14% chance in 2020 (as opposed to a 26% chance of picking 6th.) And now that they added Rudy Gobert and his max deal to a team who lost in the first round to a younger team in KAT’s 7th year, we’re calling their fumbling around for 7 years a massive win for the “losing is great!” crowd? Sure, okay.

    13. Is it 100% sure that Anthony Edwards is going to be better than Obi Toppin in the long run? I see many question marks in in that team before we crown them top 5 team in the league. I mean, the Nets and the Lakers were the title favorites last year.

    14. They have yet to play a single game together and have no future picks to add more talent and the guy they just traded for is 30 years old. Edwards and kat were drafted 6 years apart. Edwards is going to be good but it might take a few more seasons at which point gobert will be 32 or 33 years old.

      This is again grass is greener stuff. They are not contenders until they actually make it out of the first round of the first round.

      You are so hyper focused on top lottery picks above everything else. It is so myopic.

    15. “It’s comical to try and twist this as an example of tanking to rebuild. Just stop it. You look foolish.”

      Why are all the posters with the worst predictive track records the most obnoxious? You would think it would be the other way around.

    16. love you swift but have you ever been right about this team’s quality relative to the rest of the league even once

    17. Past performance isn’t indicative of future production. I’m like RJ Barrett. I got lots of skills and the potential is there. The naysayers point to my current production as proof that I’ll never blossom into a star. But I believe in myself and will have the last laugh.

    18. Man, it’s kind of funny that everyone is jumping all over facehumper for saying the draft is important because even one of the worst run teams in the NBA can become good by getting lucky in the draft.

    19. Also we’re not talking about the Knicks. We’re talking about the twolves and also just the idea of tanking in general. The proponents of that path always gloss over the many examples of it failing and using the twolves as an example of its success now is totally premature and even if this iteration of the twolves is successful, it is hardly a good example of rebuilding through the draft considering there was a six year gap between kat and edwards.

      Also just bc the Knicks have been unsuccessful with the hybrid strategy doesn’t mean the approach itself is flawed. There were many years when the Knicks didn’t even have draft picks let alone lottery picks bc they traded them away. They made horrible picks with Knox and Frank, not just missing out on stars but just decent rotational players. And for years the free agents they did sign were aging or I’ll fitting with the team they had or both. So it’s silly to say their approach now can’t work bc they really haven’t done this approach until Leon or at if we concede they were doing this approach under Phil or Donnie or isiah, they did it in ncorrectly. I just think the narrative that we’ve tried this method for years and it hasn’t worked is false.

    20. BTW, I don’t have any dog in the Minnesota tank vs. Knicks hybrid fight, but I think it is incorrect to say that Minny has taken themselves out of the next 6 drafts.

      They probably overpaid for Gobert, but if things don’t go well for them them in the next couple of years, they can almost certainly blow it up and trade KAT and/or Edwards for a bunch of picks.

    21. Raven, that sucks. Be safe, and I hope you at least get to enjoy seeing the country this way. That kind of long road trip is something I’ve often talked about, but my kids want no part of that much concentrated time in the car together.

    22. “That kind of long road trip is something I’ve often talked about, but my kids want no part of that much concentrated time in the car together.”

      It’d be a great opportunity to teach your kids the litmus configuration at some point along the way.

    23. Geo check your TSH and thyroid antibodies
      Pretty common during the last couple of decades that its thyroid malfunction

      Raven get great music with you and have fun!

      Humper and tank maniacs in general are saying that draft gives easy nba capital to those who suck more and we agree
      BUT
      You can always suck even through constant tanking or even through hybrid or even through any path possible

      If you wanna be successful in nba you need to clean your shit sometime and get serious in cap, roster, draft capital, talent evaluation, coaching…

    24. @wojespn
      Cleveland Cavaliers All-Star guard Darius Garland has agreed on a five-year, $193M maximum designated rookie contract extension that could be worth as much as $231M, @KlutchSports CEO Rich Paul tells ESPN. It is the largest deal in franchise history.

      That is a large sum of money.

    25. Call me Polyanna Homerismopoulos if you want but i prefer the knicks situation over the twolves right now!

    26. And that Garland number has me convinced that the best outcome for the RJ situation is to let him get to RFA next summer. I can’t imagine him taking a significant discount after Zion, Ja, and Garland all got maxes. Even though they are all thus far better players than him, it becomes a pride issue. So if he is going to expect anything near this neighborhood, then the team needs to very gently invite him to prove he is worth it over the 2022-23 season.

    27. The noblefacehumper:

      My point is that hitting on just two high picks afforded them a massive amount of leeway they’ve finally parlayed into being a contender.

      I posted this in the last thread but the two years they made those high picks they lost exactly one more game than the Knicks… combined. Hitting on high picks is fine (and credit to them for nailing the Edwards pick) but what is out of your control is the certainty you will get those high picks. Are the vagaries of the lottery any less speculative than hoping a true star shakes lose? I don’t know but at least the latter method allows for seasons where the team wins 40-50 games a year. Our dual 17 win teams netted us Kristaps and RJ.

    28. Call me Polyanna Homerismopoulos if you want but i prefer the knicks situation over the twolves right now!

      You’re Polyanna Homerismopoulos (and I’m not thrilled with the Minny moves, either).

    29. safe journey raven…such as is life, do what’s possible to make the best of a tough situation…if possible, embrace the trip…

    30. Getting or Not free nba capital the main thing is that you need to get serious at one point in order to contend.
      Compare the Constant Tanking Teams with the Hybrid ones and tell me who would you choose to be for the next decades?

      Sacramento Magic or San Antonio Heat?

    31. The Wolves’ move also reminded me of something I’ve been saying for a while. The best GMs make bold moves. Tim Connolly is one of the best GMs in the game and he joined Minny and instantly made a bold move. The Spurs also made a bold move. Riley makes a bold move every ten seconds. If the Knicks had one of the top GMs, there’s no way they’d play things as conservatively as Rose has. There is just no way.

    32. it’s been a good year for me…started out pretty convinced I had cerebral-spinal fluid leaking out my ears, and I was fairly sure I was also experiencing some form of mania…

      seems it’s just some gland switch buried inside my brain malfunctioning as a result of an injury…not ideal, not too bad though really…

      understanding definitely helps bring peace…

      now I can get back to just being tormented by the knicks…

      actually, things are looking up for them too :)

    33. the wolves are in a really good spot for this season, which is cool because I enjoy watching ant play…

      I appreciate kat’s game, he just looks so ungainly at times out on the court, like he’s gonna trip or fall down at any minute…

    34. definitely not shedding any tears for the nets, they have an opportunity with the assets they have to revise their roster to have a competitive team this season and going forward…

    35. “Brian Cronin
      July 2, 2022 at 12:57 pm
      The Wolves’ move also reminded me of something I’ve been saying for a while. The best GMs make bold moves. Tim Connolly is one of the best GMs in the game and he joined Minny and instantly made a bold move. The Spurs also made a bold move. Riley makes a bold move every ten seconds. If the Knicks had one of the top GMs, there’s no way they’d play things as conservatively as Rose has. There is just no way.”

      I’m not sure that’s so true. Timing is everything. The best GMs also know when NOT to make a bold move. Would the moves that Connolly and Buford and Riley made have been available to the Knicks without first building up their asset cache? Would they have been best for the team’s future?

    36. How would you call the Bargnani and Noah moves if not bold?

      How about:
      The Bold and the Beautiful season 35?

    37. Swift got the 20-21 Knicks pretty good, didn’t he? He had them with the highest win total on this board and they got even more wins than he predicted. Or maybe I’m misremembering.

      The annoying thing about the negative club is that they didn’t leave room for discussion over the past year. Even when it was already clear that the 19th pick was not a great decision, and not a fiasco, they continued to treat it as one, and use a highly upsetting word for describing it. The coach’s tendency to play his favorites too many minutes earned him an incredibly harsh derogatory and it was repeated over and over and 100x over. Same with Mitch not being signed last year, and etc. etc.

      It’s ok to let go sometime and move on.

    38. Isiah made bold moves. He sucked.

      Layden made conservative moves. He sucked too.

      If you’re a poor talent evaluator it doesn’t matter what your philosophy is.

    39. I just want to clarify that I’m not suggesting that Leon is executing the hybrid approach perfectly, only that he’s remained on a viable path towards building a contender. It will take some luck, as even the most skillful GMs require to get from very good to great. But they are definitely in a good position to become at least very good in 2-3 years by doing exactly what they are doing. Maybe they top out at the conference semis because they never get even a little bit lucky. But if they keep making decent picks in the draft at whatever spot they draft at, signing players like Brunson, and having all of their own plus excess firsts, they will keep improving. But this was never the year in which they were aiming to be very good. Whatever happened last offseason, the guys they signed other than Fournier were all placeholders, and Fournier has played to his salary. Randle and RJ are huge question marks, and that’s part of the purpose of this season…to determine whether they are part of the solution going forward. But the time for bold moves (I mean bolder than Brunson) is next offseason, not this one. Leon asked for patience from day one, and I’m good with giving it to him.

    40. “Ingmarrrr
      July 2, 2022 at 1:12 pm
      Swift got the 20-21 Knicks pretty good, didn’t he? He had them with the highest win total on this board and they got even more wins than he predicted. Or maybe I’m misremembering.

      The annoying thing about the negative club is that they didn’t leave room for discussion over the past year. Even when it was already clear that the 19th pick was not a great decision, and not a fiasco, they continued to treat it as one, and use a highly upsetting word for describing it. The coach’s tendency to play his favorites too many minutes earned him an incredibly harsh derogatory and it was repeated over and over and 100x over. Same with Mitch not being signed last year, and etc. etc.

      It’s ok to let go sometime and move on.”

      +1000

      “TheOakmanCometh
      July 2, 2022 at 1:18 pm
      Isiah made bold moves. He sucked.

      Layden made conservative moves. He sucked too.

      If you’re a poor talent evaluator it doesn’t matter what your philosophy is.”

      +1000 again

    41. Isiah made bold moves. He sucked.

      Yeah, he was the one Knick GM we’ve seen who did make bold moves. And I admired that aspect of him. He was just also stupid. But his boldness probably also kept the other GMs from making bold moves.

    42. Swift got the 20-21 Knicks pretty good, didn’t he? He had them with the highest win total on this board and they got even more wins than he predicted. Or maybe I’m misremembering.

      Knew Your Nicks had the highest win total. 36, I believe.

      Swift said 32-33. I said 31 (so did Alan). Predicting a lot of wins for that Knicks team was not necessarily an “optimistic” take, believe you me.

    43. I looked at the past 20 years champions. If they got their two best players through a top 5 draft pick I considered them a win for the tanking method. If they didn’t, I considered them a win for the hybrid method.

      The results are overwhelming: other than the Spurs with Duncan and Robinson no team in the past 20 years won with purely the tanking model. (please correct me if I’m wrong).

      The lakers of the early 2000s won with Kobe (drafted in the teens) and Shaq (came as a free agent).
      Dallas won with Dirk (#9) and Chandler (FA or trade, I don’t remember) .
      The later Lakers won with Kobe and Gasol (traded for).
      The Heat won with Wade (drafted in the top 5!) and LeBron (came as a fa).
      The 2004 Pistons won with a group of mid lottery picks and traded for players.
      The 2008 Celtics won with Pierce (#10) and Garnett (traded for).
      The Warriors dynasty had Curry, Thompson, and Green (none drafted in the top 5) and Durant (#2) for 2 of the 4 championships.

      You can analyze these further and find that you really need to hit on at least one great player in the draft, or be the Lakers, but to say that tanking is the best method for winning is simply false, at least in the past 2 decades.

    44. Brian: “Knew Your Nicks had the highest win total. 36, I believe.

      Swift said 32-33. I said 31 (so did Alan). Predicting a lot of wins for that Knicks team was not necessarily an “optimistic” take, believe you me.”

      Didn’t Swift say 40 at some point during the season, when it still sounded delusional?

    45. Remember me predicting many wins due to deadly D on the first Thibs yr
      Last season thought of the same improved but..
      KembaFournier had other plans..

    46. Cleveland in 2016 also won with the draft model with LeBron and Kyrie being their best 2 players (technically LeBron was a fa signing but fine, he was drafted #1 by the Cavs.

    47. the right way to analyze it is that the best players in those squads were obtained with high lottery picks and if you’re able to keep or acquire them then it makes you a contender…

      if you’re able to draw them as FA or obtain through trade then all the better but the EASIEST way to obtain them is through the draft….

      Shaq was the #1 pick.. came for free to the lakers in free agency… left a contender that was a nba finalist with another top 3 pick (Penny)
      Gasol was a top 3 pick… came for basically free for a bunch of scraps one of which turned out to be marc gasol
      Lebron and Bosh were top 5 picks.. both came for free in free agency… Lebron also left an NBA finalist…
      KG and Ray Allen were top 5 picks… traded for a bunch of scraps.. KG and Allen both left squads that made the Conf finals…
      Lebron went to the lakers for free in free agency and Anthony Davis .. .another #1 overall pick… was traded for a bunch of players picked in the top 5 (Lonzo Ball… Ingram).. Lebron left a squad that had multiple NBA champions…
      Kevin Durant was the #2 pick and went for free to Golden State…. left a squad that made the NBA finals and conf finals…

      and how did you miss the Cavs? Lebron was the #1 overall pick… Kyrie was also the #1 overall pick… they also drafted and traded Wiggins the #1 overall pick for Kevin Love….Tristan Thompson was also a top 5 pick…. and they also incinerated another #1 overall pick with Anthony Bennett….

      this ain’t it chief….

    48. Geo check your TSH and thyroid antibodies
      Pretty common during the last couple of decades that its thyroid malfunction

      sorry for the obsessive focusing – this stuff is like discussing frank to me…i just can’t help myself…

      as a result of conflicts in both iraq and afghanistan wherein way too many of our service members were experiencing head injury and ptsd events – our governement did a deep dive in to that stuff and updated their regulations and standards around 2008…

      on of the things “discovered” is that brain injury can cause disruption to the endocrine system…so yeah, hypothyroidism developed in me soon after the injury…

      four decades later i’m just realizing that it seems like not only was my thyroid affected – something ain’t working right with my hypothalamus…

      my sis justifiably dogged me a bit for waving around my: i’m not crazy banner…the truth is, there are people whom i love and care for who in fact are experiencing real psychological disorders…i need to change my tone from glee to a more: there but for the grace of god go i

      here’s an oldie for ya cyber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGBDAxCDLs4

      get your dancing shoes on :)

    49. Leon got us a PG, which not one FO in the last 20 years managed to do. For now, i’m happy.

    50. scary parenting tune: Too much love is worse than none at all

      came out of the gritty and grimey 70’s nueva york…

    51. Noticed it too, Geo, but i don’t believe in it. My kids have to be able to get too much love to get along with me. LOL Until now, all is good in Cyber Land. ;D

    52. Why are all the posters with the worst predictive track records the most obnoxious? You would think it would be the other way around.

      it’s not just here young padawan…. you shouldn’t engage anyone logically when they haven’t logic’ed their way into it…

      they’re just vibin’ bro.. don’t mess with their vibes or tap the fishtank…

    53. I told my buddy here in Portland that my holdings in VTSAX were down big this year, and he told me that that’s why you don’t bother saving for retirement at all — anything can happen

    54. yikes, ya made me look jowles, year to date, down 24% on my personal stuff, down 18% on work stuff…

      i remember the last time the market took a big dive years ago, there was this guy at work getting ready to retire who just kept shaking his head, he lost around 30% or something over a year’s time…

      hope at least you’re making money hubie :)

      i gotta believe this is an excellent opportunity for the “pros”…

    55. Dedicated to Brian, my bold move would be a trade for KD. But as long as he agrees to start the press conference like Amare – “The Knicks are back, baby!” :D
      Now, seriously, we have to be careful with the next move, as it might put us in a bad situation if it’s not a good move. So until now, we passed on the Dejounte Murray and Rudy Gobert trades, and i understand why. At the price of those trades we’re expecting a star that catapults us to contention and i don’t think any of those two would do it. So we keep waiting for the right moment to strike.

    56. donovan mitchell is still “out there”…once KD and kyrie start moving, some other all-star level players will probably be on the move…

      i’m sort of hoping we stand pat against any big/bold moves…i’d start the season with what we currently have and see how it works…give it until february and then make roster adjustments…

    57. Man, the hostility to anyone who casts some doubt on the front office that got us the 11th seed and the 11th pick is hilarious. Guys, I promise you, if Leon Rose makes the Knicks into a contender he will get all his flowers! You truly have nothing to worry about on that front. I’ll sign every post with “TNFH, who was wrong about Leon Rose” and I’ll be happy to do it.

      If it really bugs you so much that this is literally the one professional spots team related websites on Al Gore’s internet in which participants aren’t pollyanna all the time, I assure you there are other options e.g. all of the other Knicks websites.

      “Are the vagaries of the lottery any less speculative than hoping a true star shakes lose?”

      The answer is obviously yes. If you have a top-5 or so pick, you will almost certainly have the opportunity to pick a very good player, and furthermore have that player signed for 4 years at a very low-cost.

      I’m often accused of avoiding mentioning this even though I mention it all the time, so let me make it very clear: This. Is. No. Guarantee. Of. Anything.

      Having a high draft pick is not a cure for stupid. You still have to pick the right player(s). My point is that you can be assured the *opportunity* will be there. The Kings had the *opportunity* to have Luka Doncic on their team for what likely would’ve been a bare minimum of six or so seasons, that’s a much better *opportunity* than they’ve ever come across in their ~20 year “hybrid” method experiment.

      When your strategy is to sit around and not make any particularly bold moves until Unidentified Superstar X demands a trade, it is quite possible, in fact more likely than not, that you won’t even get the opportunity to add truly elite talent. So many things have to go right that it’s truly pointless to choose this route–it takes more luck, and I actually see no reason to think it takes any less time.

    58. If it really bugs you so much that this is literally the one professional spots team related websites on Al Gore’s internet in which participants aren’t pollyanna all the time, I assure you there are other options e.g. all of the other Knicks websites.

      Yeah, this site has historically had the most open moderation possible. Heck, me saying “don’t try to carry over Good Place arguments to a new thread at the most important point in time in the Knicks offseason (and not even don’t have the debate, just don’t try to carry it to a new thread at this precise point in time)” was the most moderating I’ve done in, like, a year. So if you don’t like that sort of approach, there certainly are plenty of other places that might better cater to your interests.

    59. djphan of course top 5 picks are important, the point is you don’t have to tank for them, trading and free agency seem to lead to championships more often then not in the past 20 years. Insisting on tanking as the only path to nirvana is just stupid.

      What’s up Brian, having a bad weekend?

    60. I think that there are two separate discussions going on with the moves the Wolves made. The first is the cost of the trade, and yes, it was an overpay, it’s A LOT of draft picks to give up. It can be argued that a team like Minnesota has to overpay to get players because of location and history, and that’s what I tend to agree with.

      The second discussion is how much Gobert makes then better, and that has been my issue in general, because I think he’s being vastly underrated. First, because he’s not useless on offense if you already have shot creators (and the Wolves have 3 high volume ones), he can finish lobs with sky high efficiency, and offensive rebounding and put backs are also part of an offense, and he’s also elite at that. Those are fringe skills if Gobert is the best player on your team; those are extremely good things to have if he’s the 3rd best player on your team, or the 4th option on offense as he will be in Minnesota.

      He also happens to be best defender in the entire league at a premium position for a team that was poor defensively and had very little upside on that side of the court with their current core.

      I’ll gladly go on record for the people who like to keep track of this stuff saying that the Wolves will be a real threat in the west and Gobert will make them a lot better.

    61. “djphan of course top 5 picks are important, the point is you don’t have to tank for them, trading and free agency seem to lead to championships more often then not in the past 20 years. Insisting on tanking as the only path to nirvana is just stupid.”

      Yeah, you can also try to poach players who were drafted highly by other teams. The problem is this is a much more complicated and uncertain process than just drafting them yourself.

      Again with the “only path” strawman, it’s tiresome. No one is saying that. Teams have succeeded with something resembling a “hybrid” approach (there tend to be differences between the actual success stories here and what the Knicks are doing, but whatever). Teams have succeeded by landing elite talent in the draft even without high picks.

      We’re talking about the approach that is most likely to get you the kind of talent you need as a mere prerequisite to contention, though. The year in, year out 4-5+ BPM guys that the Knicks don’t have, and don’t seem particularly close to getting.

      The most likely path to one or more of those guys is the same as it was the day Leon Rose took over: it’s the draft, stupid (I am not calling you stupid, I am paraphrasing James Carville).

    62. OK, I think I get the point. If it looks like I’m trying to censor people based on virtue or pc and it’s not the policy here than I apologize and I’ll stop. I’ll just skip some posters when they become too annoying for me.

    63. Awesome tune Cyber! Took me back to my NYC club hopping days.

      I’ll give Leon & Co. a B+ for this offseason so far. Their big mistake last year was giving those guys 2+1 instead of 1+1, but they wiggled out of it without giving up any serious draft capital, so all is forgiven. That was a strength of Scott Perry’s, but he must have been overruled.

      My wish list for this offseason, was sign Brunson, sign Mitch, and nail the draft pick. Two out of three ain’t bad. In Brunson, we finally have a real floor general. I’m willing to see how it goes with RJ and Randle, but anyone who doesn’t play well off Brunson needs to go.

      I am really happy to see Mitch break the curse. He is one of my favorite Knicks in a long time and I hope Brunson helps him reach his full potential. I’m also very excited about Hartenstein, whose skills I think are a really nice counter to what Mitch brings. I also hope to see Randle gets some minutes at the 5.

      I think this roster can win 45 plus games, and still has the flexibility to acquire a true super star if one becomes available. It’s really up to Thibs to get the most out of the talent we have. If he does, we can have a team like the ’04 Pistons. Otherwise, it’s time for a new coach.

      The Knicks should “tank” argument is very old and tired. They tanked and got RJ. That regime was soon gone, but left Leon in a good position. He has built a young team with upside from there. We won’t be tanking any time soon, unless this roster totally flops, and then we will bring in a new front office and start over from scratch. Not something I’m hoping for.

    64. Awesome tune Cyber! Took me back to my NYC club hopping days.

      Credit to Geo, i was just replying to his comment.

    65. “Again with the “only path” strawman, it’s tiresome. No one is saying that. Teams have succeeded with something resembling a “hybrid” approach (there tend to be differences between the actual success stories here and what the Knicks are doing, but whatever). Teams have succeeded by landing elite talent in the draft even without high picks.”

      See, I think what’s tiresome is hearing over and over again about how the path the Knicks are on under Leon is stupid and will never yield a true contending team, which is essentially what you have said over and over again. Or are you denying that you say this (or something akin to it) over and over? You bring it up at every opportunity, you never let it go. The point you make above is not really reflective of your posting.

      Which is fine, in fact I have agreed many times that this is not the “optimal” way of rebuilding, along with criticizing many other moves made by Leon e.g. hiring Thibs, trading the CHA pick for Reddish, not playing the kids enough, etc. It’s not that I vehemently disagree with your essential point about it being better to build through strategic draft positioning. But your complaint about rebuttals being tiresome rings a bit hollow when you take every opportunity to get on a soapbox about what the FO is not doing and will not do in the foreseeable future. Everybody absolutely 100% knows in no uncertain terms how you feel about it.

      Would it be alot to ask to assume that we stipulate to your preferences and move on to judging the moves made by Leon in the context of what is actually possible, given the obvious commitment to the hybrid path? If we could do that, I think everyone on whatever side of the draft vs. hybrid argument would find the conversation less tiresome.

    66. We’re talking about the approach that is most likely to get you the kind of talent you need as a mere prerequisite to contention, though. The year in, year out 4-5 BPM guys that the Knicks don’t have, and don’t seem particularly close to getting.

      Jokic #1 BPM drafted 41st

      Giannis #2 BPM drafted 15th

      Butler #7 drafted 30th

      Robert Williams III #10 drafted 27th

      Dejounte Murray #11 *just traded* drafted 29th

      Gobert #16 drafted 27th

      Donovan Mitchell #19 drafted 13th

      Booker #20 drafted 13th

      Sabonis #22 drafted 11th

      22 players had a BPM over 4.0 last year, 9 of them were not drafted in the high lottery. 23rd-27th in BPM were also after high lottery.

      Two of the players were drafted to a contender by the guy who is literally running our drafts.

      It’s not as unlikely as you think to get high BPM players after the lottery. It’s less likely, but it’s not an anomaly.

    67. This:

      “swiftandabundant
      July 2, 2022 at 11:43 am
      Past performance isn’t indicative of future production. I’m like RJ Barrett. I got lots of skills and the potential is there. The naysayers point to my current production as proof that I’ll never blossom into a star. But I believe in myself and will have the last laugh.”

      Swifty – you are now my favorite KB poster. I love your enthusiasm. Proper fandom.

      Been a while since I last posted folks, but love to keep up. Draft and Free Agency always a highlight of the Knicks calendar. Win or Lose current front office is doing it differently and makes it interesting.

    68. “See, I think what’s tiresome is hearing over and over again about how the path the Knicks are on under Leon is stupid and will never yield a true contending team, which is essentially what you have said over and over again. Or are you denying that you say this (or something akin to it) over and over? ”

      I am unequivocally denying I have ever said this.

      “Would it be alot to ask to assume that we stipulate to your preferences and move on to judging the moves made by Leon in the context of what is actually possible, given the obvious commitment to the hybrid path? If we could do that, I think everyone on whatever side of the draft vs. hybrid argument would find the conversation less tiresome.”

      I probably weigh in on every single transaction the Knicks make. I’ve been talking about Brunson as a target for over a year. I have posts about Jean freakin’ Montero you can look up.

    69. “I’ll gladly go on record for the people who like to keep track of this stuff saying that the Wolves will be a real threat in the west and Gobert will make them a lot better.”

      There’s certainly reasons to believe this is true. My concern is with the assumption that KAT is able to move to PF without some very negative side effects. Assuming that KAT and Gobert can share the floor for 30mph is a big gamble imho. And if you can’t play them together at least that much, it seems weird to invest max money for incompatable players.

      I also wonder about Ant Man’s development as the stakes get higher, and about whether Patrick Beverley’s presence will be missed. It just feels like a team that other good teams will figure out how to beat.

      It’s a bold move, though, and while I worry that it will ultimately backfire, it certainly could work.

    70. “I am unequivocally denying I have ever said this.”

      Then I apologize for misinterpreting you. Sure feels that way though.

    71. How many GM’s have the T-wolves had since drafting KAT? How many of them would you call successful? How good is a strategy that is inevitably going to get you fired?

    72. My concern is with the assumption that KAT is able to move to PF without some very negative side effects.

      Why? He sucked as a defensive center and he has a huge perimeter game on offense. And while Gobert is a one-trick pony on offense, you still need to account for him or he’ll dunk all over your bigs.

    73. This a crazy thread to read, especially since I basically checked out between season’s end and the start of The Brunson Era. (Can we say that yet? Haha). Basically, I thought we’d all be thrilled today.

      Anyway, I love what a lot of posters say on both sides of the “tank v hybrid” argument, and I definitely wanna draft one of those top five guys TNFH is clamoring for. I absolutely get the desire, and I don’t mind “accidentally” playing some poor lineups to help that.

      But — having been a Knicks fan since 1989 — I find it hard to hate what Leon has got going on. It may turn into a dumpster fire as TNFH seems to predict, but at the moment it doesn’t smell like one of our previous usual dumpster fires (at least not to me).

      Emotionally (not statistically, I confess) my bias is to root for home grown players and/or “underdog” talent playing for respect (if 25 yr old multi millionaires can ever be considered underdogs). This year we have a ton of such guys. And from a purely narrative point of view, I can’t wait to see what happens next with each player and each roster spot. When did I last feel that way? Ever?

    74. PS — I’m still in Hamburg (toasting Herr Hartenstein) and (no lie) I just found a brand new NY Knicks hoodie sweatshirt laying on the street in front of the restaurant where I had dinner, most likely dropped by someone hopping a cab. I will launder it and give it the proper respect. We are legion.

    75. #the right way to analyze it is that the best players in those squads were obtained with high lottery picks and if you’re able to keep or acquire them then it makes you a contender…

      if you’re able to draw them as FA or obtain through trade then all the better but the EASIEST way to obtain them is through the draft….#

      Why Do You think that The teams that drafted those high lottery draft picks weren’t able to keep them?

      Let’s say that The easiest way to obtain them is through the draft.

      Why isn’t the easiest for the teams that drafted those Ready Superstars to turn easily into Contenders?

    76. Count me all in for Donovan Mitchell.

      Knicks ‘23 unprotected
      Knicks ‘24 unprotected swap
      Knicks ‘25 unprotected
      Dallas ‘23 w the protections obviously
      Rose
      Fournier

      Who’s with me? Or not with me?

    77. “Count me all in for Donovan Mitchell.

      Knicks ‘23 unprotected
      Knicks ‘24 unprotected swap
      Knicks ‘25 unprotected
      Dallas ‘23 w the protections obviously
      Rose
      Fournier

      Who is in?”

      Certainly not the Jazz

    78. Please no to Mitchell at this point. He needs to play with a taller guard who can play D and doesn’t mind not having a high usage. That is not Brunson.

    79. Took me back to my NYC club hopping days.

      it’s interesting hangman (sorry, the ghenman thing just doesn’t stick well in my mind), i read a bunch of your quotes on “taste” stuff, and a bit temperament wise – and it feels similar to me…

      a little of the same kind of thing with “worldview” stuff and raven, owen, and early bird…so much of their posting sounds so damn reasonable/unremarkable and familiar to me – it’s taking a long time for me to differentiate folks and their monikers…

      i understand, many of you all are not really here to share in that manner (ya got enough friends in life already i imagine)…no worries, i’ll try my best not to be too intrusive…

      there’s just so much value to stories, both small and large…

    80. again – at this point, i’m all for giving julius and evian one more chance…if anything would like to see drose and taj not around next year…

      if we are not a .500 club by all-star break, pull the rip-chord on thibs please…

    81. Agreed with Zman in that we should criticize the team in context of whats actually possible. I would be perfectly fine with a tank for a few years but we would have to try really hard to even accomplish top 5.

      Even with RJ and Quick playing like garbage for half the season and Randle/Thibs nonsense we still managed to win 37 games. This team is just not bad enough to do what OKC did even if you remove all the vets. We actually have a solid defensive foundation that prevents us from bottoming out in the East.

      On the other hand you can criticize them if they fumble the RJ negotiations, dont move Randle/Fournier Rose or make poor use of all the assets they’ve acquired. I’m willing to see how they handle those things in the next few years.

    82. Knick ‘23 unprotected
      Knicks ‘24 swap unprotected
      Knicks ‘25 unprotected
      Knicks ‘26 swap unprotected
      Dallas ‘23
      Grimes
      Obi
      Rose

      I am still at yes here.
      Who’s with me?

    83. Spider is a pretty good, short and tough dude
      But we already got our tough short dude man
      Don’t want to spoil it but seems redundant right now
      How bout finding a Wing upgrade?

    84. Hangman is fine from you Geo. I agree we do have similar tastes. I usually go by G-man, but it felt too close to Z-man to use on this blog. I really appreciate your transparency and openess and am always here for your comments bro.

      Are Knickerblogger T-shirts still available anywhere? I always meant to buy one, but never did.

    85. I just don’t see Utah trading Mitchell. It sure seems like they want to rebuild around him.

    86. Yeah. Let’s definitely not get him because he’s too short even though he is a top 20 player. Cmon!!!

    87. If i could sell Dollan’s farm to get Kawhi I’d do it but i don’t think he’s coming so…
      Id prefer going after OG Anunoby right now
      I like this dude A LOT

    88. The big star we want to trade for has to be someone that will make us a contender. I’d rather just roll with Brunson whos probably a better value than whatever Mitchells package would cost.

    89. I suspect Danny wants to trade Mitchell but ownership won’t let him at this point.

    90. I suspect Danny wants to trade Mitchell but ownership won’t let him at this point.

      Mitchell is still pretty darn young, though. I could see him being a big part of the next good Jazz team. That said, yes, there is a real possibility that Ainge doesn’t like Mitchell as much as you should like your star player.

    91. i remember a few times over the last couple of years, reflecting on Knickerblogger – noticing that i had like 4 or 5 consecutive posts, many basketball related, more of a rambling stream of thought nature though :) …thinking why in the hell is my mind racing like this…

      and, what on earth would posses me to share it with strangers, lots of lurkers, probably cringing at each post i imagine…although, i will admit it can be encouraging to know there are folks maybe even more lost than yourself…ha…double ha…it is the truth…

      i’ve had coke demons crawling up my ass before…i’m fairly certain i can guess at what mania feels like…this ain’t much different, only thing being is i’m thankfully aware that i’m not all that damn smart, i’m just thinking really fast, not any better…

      i drank up chaos for soooo many years at work, in my personal life too…

      time to go walking, working on lowering my heart rate, steep inclines work the best, gotta be careful though – in conjunction with the epinephrine is a bunch of cortisol playing hell with my digestive track…quick, super smooth pace, lots of breathing…i squeeze a racquetball when i walk…

      like’s one long science fair though, ain’t it :P

    92. #@KYN would you do RJ for OG straight up? I would.#

      IReallydk
      That’s a very close one
      Depends much on character details/work ethic imo

    93. I’m just gonna enjoy this current Knick core for what it is, which is a team that should compete for a low playoff seed at it’s 50 percentile outcome and maybe wins close to 50 games and a playoff series at its 99 percentile outcome.

      The Brunson-Randle-RJ core has a low ceiling, but there are enough decent role players and young guys to give the team a relatively high floor. Obviously there’s some more off-season to go, but this seems team seems like a pretty safe bet to win like 40-45 games or so. Which isn’t terrible.

      There’s just not a lot to dream on here, short of RJ Barrett making an unlikely, unexpected leap. But maybe a few seasons of reasonably competent competitive basketball will be entertaining enough. I’m just gonna accept that we’ve upgraded from basketball hell to basketball purgatory, set up my lawn chair and just enjoy the show for a while. It’ll be a nice, comfortable, cozy ride. Low stakes, low stress.

    94. Ithaka
      BY C. P. CAVAFY
      TRANSLATED BY EDMUND KEELEY

      As you set out for Ithaka
      hope your road is a long one,
      full of adventure, full of discovery.
      Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
      angry Poseidon—don’t be afraid of them:
      you’ll never find things like that on your way
      as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
      as long as a rare excitement
      stirs your spirit and your body.
      Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
      wild Poseidon—you won’t encounter them
      unless you bring them along inside your soul,
      unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

      Hope your road is a long one.
      May there be many summer mornings when,
      with what pleasure, what joy,
      you enter harbors you’re seeing for the first time;
      may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
      to buy fine things,
      mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
      sensual perfume of every kind—
      as many sensual perfumes as you can;
      and may you visit many Egyptian cities
      to learn and go on learning from their scholars.

      Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
      Arriving there is what you’re destined for.
      But don’t hurry the journey at all.
      Better if it lasts for years,
      so you’re old by the time you reach the island,
      wealthy with all you’ve gained on the way,
      not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.

      Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
      Without her you wouldn’t have set out.
      She has nothing left to give you now.

      And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
      Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
      you’ll have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.

    95. “Agreed with Zman in that we should criticize the team in context of whats actually possible. I would be perfectly fine with a tank for a few years but we would have to try really hard to even accomplish top 5.”

      One aspect in favor of what Leon is doing: We all know that there are definitely “preferred” destinations in the NBA: LA, GS and Miami at the top of the list, then maybe BOS, then some of the other big market cities. NYK would be on that list if it weren’t for Dolan and the laughingstock aura surrounding the Knicks for the last 2 decades. The absolute nadir was when KD and Kyrie spurned the Knicks to go to BKN and KD mocked the Knicks as “not cool.” So my guess is that part of the selling point that Leon used to get hired was that he and WWW were going to restore the Knicks as “cool” , e.g. a preferred destination for stars. You can’t really do that if you are chasing losses for a 40% chance of a top-3 pick several years in a row while the team across the river is hoisting banners, like everyone expected when they had KD, Kyrie and Harden in the fold. That they imploded like they have was totally unforeseeable.

      Even though the Knicks were disappointing last year, the 2020-21 season and the Game 1 National TV win to start the season with the Bong Bong viral video gve some much needed juice to the franchise, and BKN’s demise has passed the mantle of national laughingstock to them. Leon has laid low and kept his mouth shut (no idiotic “how’s it goink” tweets) and focused on bringing in guys who represent the team and the city well and want to be here. Randle’s regression and petulance hurt a bit in that regard, but Leon kept his mouth shut about that too.

      The point is that tanking (or whatever) would have worked contrary to establishing the Knicks as a preferred destination in the short term. Obviously landing a couple of studs in the lottery would work in the long term, but Leon’s done a pretty good job in the PR realm. I don’t think we’re a preferred destination quite yet, but we’re getting there.

    96. Well said zman!
      And as Clyde would have said:
      Tanking brings pranking!

    97. “There’s just not a lot to dream on here, short of RJ Barrett making an unlikely, unexpected leap. But maybe a few seasons of reasonably competent competitive basketball will be entertaining enough. I’m just gonna accept that we’ve upgraded from basketball hell to basketball purgatory, set up my lawn chair and just enjoy the show for a while. It’ll be a nice, comfortable, cozy ride. Low stakes, low stress.”

      He who expects nothing is never disappointed….

      It’s hard to argue with anything you said here. But my hope is that whether we pick at #11 or #25 or wherever, the FO finally hits on a difference-maker like many other teams have at those spots. It doesn’t have to be Giannis or Jokic. Give me a Bam or a Siakam or a Draymond or a Klay or a Donovan or a Shai or a Devin, etc., etc. If you can find IQ and Grimes at #25, you can find guys like that at #11-15 in a deep draft. Just don’t trade away all of our picks for a fool’s gold star like Donovan Mitchell.

    98. Also when you see guys like Siakam, Anunoby, Van Vleet that had been drafted low or even not drafted at all you start realising that development creates assets too.
      No need to suck for 10 yrs to get assets.

    99. Last year we had an expected WL of 41-41 and a lot went wrong last season. We lost Burks, who was a solid contributor, but Hartenstein & Brunson instead of Noel & Taj and our PG pu-pu platter is probably a 5 or 6 win improvement. RJ getting better or Randle bouncing back gets us into fun territory even if we’re not going to be a contender.

    100. So the Nets might trade Kyrie for Westbrook and then trade Durant too? Haven’t enough teams unsuccessfully tried to win with Westbrook recently to make this the definition of insanity?

    101. So the Nets might trade Kyrie for Westbrook and then trade Durant too? Haven’t enough teams unsuccessfully tried to win with Westbrook recently to make this the definition of insanity?

      I don’t get it at all.

    102. They’d be doing it for the picks and to potentially unload a Joe Harris contract that no longer has any value to them.

      But my god, imagine the spacing if Russ and Ben Simmons are both playing at the same time.

    103. It also seems like the Lakers are the only team in the NBA that wants Kyrie, which is pretty wild

    104. You know, I completely understand those who look at the current roster and worry if there isn’t a path to potential contention. I’ve always believed that the Knicks – after two decades of historical ineptitude, need to stabilize themselves first with a floor/ceiling of “good” first for at least a couple of seasons. Building a decent, playoff team with youth, multiple draft picks and financial maneuverability is a far cry from the recent past. I’d down to enjoy that for awhile.

    105. “ It also seems like the Lakers are the only team in the NBA that wants Kyrie, which is pretty wild”.

      Of COURSE they do! And their fans will eat it up. You can imagine the type of texts I’d get if that happens…

    106. Kyrie would be the best non-Lebron Laker on offense by a pretty big margin. They have to make this move if Brooklyn is willing to take Westbrook & a distant pick or two.

    107. A Lakers fan friend of mine basically said they have no choice. It’s the only way to get rid of Russ before he expires and, “You can’t punt a season when LeBron is on your team, especially at this age.” If all three are healthy for the playoffs and LeBron can keep Kyrie in line, that’s a team that can do things. It’ll just cost brutally down the road.

    108. They’ll love Kyrie out here in LA. Laker fans follow the team on a pretty superficial level, and they love “famous” players. He’ll be the talk of sports talk radio, he’ll lead KTLA sports news every night… Laker fans love the kind of stupid drama that Kyrie brings.

      The idea of the Nets imploding that horrifically is pretty hilarious.

    109. oh man, the joy it would be to root against the lakers…

      i don’t though how russ helps the nets?

    110. Russ keeps the building non-empty while the team retools. Or if Marks gets a real star in a KD trade, maybe Russ gets bought out. He’s the tax for Brooklyn to get access to 2 Lakers draft picks and a pick swap in the post-LeBron era.

    111. If the Nets are planning to rebuild with what they get for Irving instead of being good right away I can see putting up with Westbrook. But what can LA actually give them that makes that possible?

    112. The Nets could trade the Lakers picks for someone to help with whoever they get for KD, I guess

    113. Miami seems like the epitome of the hybrid method. To be successful, they’ve relied on excellent player development. Riley always seems to have a Starks and a Mason. People go to MIA and next thing they have 5% body fat. One legit star (Ewing once/ now Butler) plus a smart team of fit guys that’d run through a wall for their coach. Ultimately, it may not be enough to be a prohibitive favorite for a championship. Other teams have Jordan / Pippin. But it’s a team that always has a puncher’s chance.

    114. If the Nets are planning to rebuild with what they get for Irving instead of being good right away I can see putting up with Westbrook. But what can LA actually give them that makes that possible?

      As noted, Westbrook would come with some picks that might be tradeable for someone to pair with the team and dropping Ingles’ money would help, as well. I still don’t get it, but it’s at least a theory. If they keep Curry, I guess you’d start Westbrook, Curry, someone at small forward, Simmons at power forward and then someone like Ayton at center. Maybe they get Mikal Bridges and you play him at the 3? Westbrook, Curry, Bridges, Simmons and Ayton is possibly a playoff team in the East. It’s not a good team, but I don’t know that they actually have any good options, ya know?

    115. Westbrook, Curry, Bridges, Simmons and Ayton is possibly a playoff team in the East. It’s not a good team, but I don’t know that they actually have any good options, ya know?

      You don’t get rid of Durant and Irving for that lineup. They don’t have to trade Durant, and, if I were them I wouldn’t be in a hurry. They gave him everything he wanted, including firing Atkinson so Durant’s friend could play. Now he wants to leave because they aren’t good (and maybe because Kyrie won’t be there?).

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