Knicks Morning News (2022.06.24)

  • 1999 NBA Finals Game 4- Spurs vs. Knicks – Pounding The Rock
    [www.poundingtherock.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 7:00:00 AM

    1999 NBA Finals Game 4- Spurs vs. Knicks  Pounding The Rock

  • Charlotte Hornets’ Mitch Kupchak says Kenny Atkinson backing out of agreement ‘disappointing’ – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 3:45:54 AM

    Charlotte Hornets’ Mitch Kupchak says Kenny Atkinson backing out of agreement ‘disappointing’  ESPN

  • Judge Walks It Off, and What Did the Knicks Do? – The Ringer
    [www.theringer.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 2:20:44 AM

    Judge Walks It Off, and What Did the Knicks Do?  The Ringer

  • New York Knicks Blow Draft Night on Another Hopeless Bet – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 2:06:43 AM

    New York Knicks Blow Draft Night on Another Hopeless Bet  Bleacher ReportWill the Knicks trade up for Shaedon Sharpe?  Posting and ToastingKnicks Looking To Trade For Ivey, Pistons Balking  hoopsrumors.comKnicks’ 2021 NBA Draft selections and how they fared in Year 1  New York Post Knicks draft picks 2022: When does New York pick? Full list of NBA Draft selections  Sporting NewsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Biggest Winners and Losers from 2022 NBA Draft Night – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 1:21:06 AM

    Biggest Winners and Losers from 2022 NBA Draft Night  Bleacher Report

  • Evaluating the Knicks’ draft moves and potential plans for the future, including Jalen Brunson | SportsNite – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 1:16:00 AM

    Evaluating the Knicks’ draft moves and potential plans for the future, including Jalen Brunson | SportsNite  Yahoo Sports

  • Hoops coach Kenny Stevens wins Knicks award: The founder of area basketball tourney has inspired kids for 32 years – The Riverdale Press
    [www.riverdalepress.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 1:05:00 AM

    Hoops coach Kenny Stevens wins Knicks award: The founder of area basketball tourney has inspired kids for 32 years  The Riverdale Press

  • Knicks’ 2022 NBA Draft madness all points to Jalen Brunson pursuit – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 12:54:00 AM

    Knicks’ 2022 NBA Draft madness all points to Jalen Brunson pursuit  New York Post

  • 2022 NBA Draft trade tracker: Knicks send Kemba Walker to Pistons; 76ers pick up De’Anthony Melton – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 12:37:00 AM

    2022 NBA Draft trade tracker: Knicks send Kemba Walker to Pistons; 76ers pick up De’Anthony Melton  CBS Sports

  • Mavs had a quiet draft night, but Knicks’ moves bring worry – The Dallas Morning News
    [www.dallasnews.com] — Friday, June 24, 2022 12:07:30 AM

    Mavs had a quiet draft night, but Knicks’ moves bring worry  The Dallas Morning News

  • Detroit Pistons acquire veteran Kemba Walker from New York Knicks as part of 3-team trade – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 11:55:14 PM

    Detroit Pistons acquire veteran Kemba Walker from New York Knicks as part of 3-team trade  ESPNKnicks trade Kemba Walker to Pistons in 3-team deal  NBA.com2022 NBA Draft: Breaking down the Knicks’ three separate trades after moving Kemba Walker  CBS SportsKnicks trade Kemba Walker, No. 13 pick Jalen Duren to Pistons: Sources  The AthleticReport: New York Knicks trading Kemba Walker to Detroit Pistons  NBC SportsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • New York Knicks select Duke’s Trevor Keels in second round of 2022 NBA draft – Myrtle Beach Sun News
    [www.myrtlebeachonline.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 11:51:22 PM

    New York Knicks select Duke’s Trevor Keels in second round of 2022 NBA draft  Myrtle Beach Sun News

  • Hornets take Duke center, trade Memphis standout Duren to Knicks – Salisbury Post – Salisbury Post
    [www.salisburypost.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 11:47:37 PM

    Hornets take Duke center, trade Memphis standout Duren to Knicks – Salisbury Post  Salisbury Post

  • NBA Draft 2022: Spike Lee and Stephen A. Smith hilariously react to Knicks draft pick – Sporting News
    [www.sportingnews.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 10:17:00 PM

    NBA Draft 2022: Spike Lee and Stephen A. Smith hilariously react to Knicks draft pick  Sporting News

  • Knicks to attempt at least one more move in order to clear cap space for Jalen Brunson – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 9:44:59 PM

    Knicks to attempt at least one more move in order to clear cap space for Jalen Brunson  Hoops Hype

  • Kyrie Irving Rumors: Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, Heat, 76ers, More Interest Nets Star – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 7:48:45 PM

    Kyrie Irving Rumors: Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, Heat, 76ers, More Interest Nets Star  Bleacher Report

  • These 3 Trades Send Knicks’ Julius Randle To Kings – NBA Analysis Network
    [nbaanalysis.net] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 7:04:38 PM

    These 3 Trades Send Knicks’ Julius Randle To Kings  NBA Analysis Network

  • Jimmy Butler Shuts Down any-and-all New York Knicks Rumors – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 6:52:53 PM

    Jimmy Butler Shuts Down any-and-all New York Knicks Rumors  Heavy.com

  • NBA rumors: Celtics, Knicks, Magic called about Warriors’ No. 28 pick – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 6:03:26 PM

    NBA rumors: Celtics, Knicks, Magic called about Warriors’ No. 28 pick  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks rumors: New York makes bold trade offer to send Evan Fournier back to Celtics – ClutchPoints
    [clutchpoints.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 5:06:50 PM

    Knicks rumors: New York makes bold trade offer to send Evan Fournier back to Celtics  ClutchPoints

  • Knicks Rumors: Alec Burks’ Surgery Affecting Trade Value – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 2:22:41 PM

    Knicks Rumors: Alec Burks’ Surgery Affecting Trade Value  Heavy.com

  • Knicks Trade Rumors: Grizzlies Interested in Moving Up to No. 11 Draft Pick – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 2:00:00 PM

    Knicks Trade Rumors: Grizzlies Interested in Moving Up to No. 11 Draft Pick  Bleacher Report

  • New York Knicks among teams with interest in D’Angelo Russell: How a trade could look – Sportsnaut
    [sportsnaut.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 1:58:02 PM

    New York Knicks among teams with interest in D’Angelo Russell: How a trade could look  Sportsnaut

  • Point Guard Rumors: Brogdon, Knicks, Wizards, Morris, Murray – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Thursday, June 23, 2022 9:55:00 AM

    Point Guard Rumors: Brogdon, Knicks, Wizards, Morris, Murray  hoopsrumors.com

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    124 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.24)”

    1. This sucks. I’m sorry. When your whole plan is “overpay a good but not great point guard and hope that’s enough to in turn convince a disgruntled superstar to say he will only play for us,” you may as well quit. Especially if said point guard is not guaranteed to come here.

    2. repost:

      ptmilo:
      the stand-alone okc trade is hard to dislike.the detroit 23has a very high chance of conveying; i would say around 98%.the weighted expectation for that pick is something like #17-19 in 2025 (in value terms).typically the 18 is worth maybe 2/3 of the 11, though this one would be 3 yrs removed in time.the wizards 23 is not far off, and should be over 95% to convey as a first.the mean expectation for that pick is maybe the #16-18 in 2024.Similar value expectation.You could argue that these two picks alone have similar net value to the 2022 11, especially if you weren’t enamored with the options this yr.The denver pick, which we flipped, also has a very high chance of conveying, but a lower mean expectation. the mean value there is probably more like the 24th pick next yr.that’s ~40-50% of an average 11th pick, one year removed.overall that is somewhere between fair value and a good bit better that fair value, unless you really loved someone at 11 this year.

      the kemba trade is a bit painful, though unless utah blows it up two of the seconds are probably pretty low value.the trade down from the nuggets pick to the bucks 2025 picks is pretty small, with most of the value disparity in the discount rate. which tends to be pretty low in the nba.it is kind of funny that we fired off so many 2023 picks in the kemba deal, after all the frail optimism about the never-actually-a-thing “double draft.”

      Which is kind of what I think….in a strict asset/present vs. future value sense, it was a better-than-neutral night, but from a fan’s perspective in the here and now, it hurts because there are some guys who I would have loved to have rooted for and at least one guy who was available at #11 and #13 is going to be a stud. But something big is coming, something that might have been more harmful to our future store of assets had we not made this trade.

      I’m just hoping that we don’t wind up with only the shit end of first round pick swaps every other year before we are actually a contender. So long as we have all of our own firsts every year, there’s hope.

    3. BTW If we can get Murray for the picks we acquired plus an additional first, I’d be thrilled. He’s a stud.

    4. The thing that really hurts at this exact point in time is that last year, Rose essentially said he didn’t like the options at #19 and there appeared to be plenty of good options at the time and it turned out that there were plenty of good options. So this year, when he again essentially says he doesn’t like the options at #11, last year makes it harder to trust his idea of what “no good options” is this year.

      Of course, it all becomes moot when the other shoe drops, and then we’ll decide based on whatever this next move is and whether it was worth punting on the #11 pick for future picks (especially since he’ll likely be using those picks in trades), which is a bit different from the #19 trade, which was just clearly a bad move on the face of it.

    5. So i had a really fun time at St John festival here, while you guys were trying to understand Leon’s 5D chess moves. No one said the world is a fair place, right? :D

    6. So it seems right now we have roughly $18MM in cap space, with probably a very easy path to $27MM in space by trading Burks for no salary (say, maybe into the Jazz’s 9.7MM trade exception they got in the Ingles deal, although would have to happen before the new league year, or Clips have a similar size exception. Indiana/BKN/Boston also have exceptions that Burks could fit into).

      That might be an easy enough path that it convinces Dallas to do a S&T rather than lose Brunson for nothing.

      If we could trade Burks and Noel (useful players!) to Dallas for Brunson and let’s say Brunson starts at $25MM, we would only lose about $5MM in cap space, leaving us with an amount that is greater than the full MLE (roughly $13MM). (There prob is some base year compensation stuff here that I don’t fully understand. )
      One can imagine us signing another player with that money vs. renting that space out to get more assets.

      The whole thing seems very uninspired so far though. But as we’ve learned the last couple offseason, we need to look at the totality of moves before making judgments… I guess as long as it ends up WITHOUT Kyrie on the team, I can give lukewarm support to whatever the plan is.

    7. Frank: So it seems right now we have roughly $18MM in cap space

      We have $16M in cap space unless we plan on waiving Mitch’s cap hold. We should not waive Mitch’s cap hold.

    8. Early Bird: We have $16M in cap space unless we plan on waiving Mitch’s cap hold. We should not waive Mitch’s cap hold.

      Wonder what Rick Brunson’s salary is?

      Maybe Rick + Jalen 2022 salary will be $25MM and so we can start Jalen off at a lower price lol

    9. Why $16M in cap space? We were at the cap level and lost Kemba’s salary, which was $9M

    10. We also don’t have to pay the 11th pick, and are probably going to waive Taj. That gets us to around the 16-17 million figure thrown around last night.

    11. I’m assuming we waive Taj Gibson at some point.

      That’s definitely the other way to make a little more cap room quickly, and then just re-sign him to the vet minimum (as Thibs would never let him go). I wonder, though, if Taj would refuse to come back if they did that. He surely could get the vet minimum most places, right? So would he come back here if they played with him like that?

    12. I wasn’t as upset with the happenings last night as most. It definitely wasn’t done ideally, but outside of one or two guys that would be lucky to fall to 11, this draft was not a strong draft and trading out of it seemed like a wise course of action. We already have a bunch of middling prospects that we need to evaluate and adding another middling (or worse) rookie who would never play would only add to the clutter. Yes, the picks will probably convey in like 2026, but they are still tradable assets. Add that to some of the vets that are also tradable and now you potentially have a bunch of pieces to trade for a player, or move up significantly next year.

      My only hope against hope is that they trade Randle because i think he proved last year that this team is not going to be successful with him as their “leader”.

    13. This kid Keels is the fattest guard drafted by an NBA team since 2010. Apparently he played defensive end in HS. He doesn’t turn 19 until August so perhaps there is some downsize upside to his game. Seems like he’s destined for Westchester

    14. I just can’t stop visualizing chubby Leon in a dirty loin cloth, throwing down his sword, raising his chubby fists in the air and shaking them, and bellowing, “Are you not entertained!!!”

    15. We did Taj a solid last year by giving him the full room exception — no other team would’ve given him that much. So I doubt there is any worry about Taj being back.
      Would love to let Noel go and have our C rotation be Mitch, Sims, and Taj in case of emergency.

      Still think a S&T of Burks/Noel to Dallas for Brunson might be a reasonable deal on both sides. Dallas gets two rotation players that they desperately need (and are theoretically tradeable pieces in and of themselves if necessary) instead of losing Brunson for nothing, and we get Brunson and still have maneuverability.

    16. Brian Cronin: That’s definitely the other way to make a little more cap room quickly, and then just re-sign him to the vet minimum (as Thibs would never let him go). I wonder, though, if Taj would refuse to come back if they did that. He surely could get the vet minimum most places, right? So would he come back here if they played with him like that?

      We did pay him several million more than he was worth last season. The option would’ve let us stay over the cap if we wished. If we were just under, then we lose the $10M MLE & only get the room for about $5M.

      I assume Taj knew there was a pretty good chance of this happening.

    17. “So this is obviously a big setback for gun safety. But if you ask me, New York just needs to get creative. Yeah, they need to think outside of the box, the same way that Texas did, right? Look at what Texas did with banning abortion — they weren’t allowed to ban it, so they just made a crazy new law that basically banned it anyway. That’s what New York needs to do with guns. Like, yeah, they should say, ‘OK, anyone can buy a gun if they want, but the gun stores are only open on the nights that the Knicks win.’” — TREVOR NOAH

    18. Thoughts

      1. IMO, it’s difficult to evaluate pick swaps when you are talking about both future drafts and protections. There are too many moving parts in the probabilities. Generally though, I’d rather be the team consolidating picks to move up to get a player I really like than the other way around.

      2. The cost of moving Kemba does not seem significant enough to get too upset, but any time you pay to move a player you signed just a year ago a mistake was made. In this case, I’m sure they knew they were taking a risk. But it turned out to be a risk that not only didn’t work out. They wound up paying to get rid of him.

      3. Sperate from the moves are the “why” they did it them.

      They obviously couldn’t move up to get Ivey, didn’t like anyone at #11 enough to draft and pay him, and decided they were willing to pay to get rid of Kemba rather buying him out and wasting space. It was space.

      4. The 64K question is: What will they to do with the space and will there be more moves to follow with more payments to move players?

      If they have to pay to move more players, then last year was a bigger debacle than we already know.

      If they sign Brunson the cost of these moves may be worth it in basketball terms, but we don’t
      know the cost in Brunson terms. We may have to overpay significantly enough to make the tax burden on the Mavs so onerous they just can’t do it. So it could wind up a mixed bag for us even if we sign him.

      If they don’t sign Brunson it will depend on what they do.

      If they wind up getting Brogdan I think it’s time to move on from Leon Rose and the rest of them ASAP. Brogdan is a good player when healthy, but he’s close to 30, often injured, not cheap, the contract is long, he’s not going to move the chain significantly and it’s not a long term solution at PG.

      Other? We’ll have to see.

    19. “So this is obviously a big setback for gun safety. But if you ask me, New York just needs to get creative. Yeah, they need to think outside of the box, the same way that Texas did, right? Look at what Texas did with banning abortion — they weren’t allowed to ban it, so they just made a crazy new law that basically banned it anyway. That’s what New York needs to do with guns. Like, yeah, they should say, ‘OK, anyone can buy a gun if they want, but the gun stores are only open on the nights that the Knicks win.’” — TREVOR NOAH

      That was what people noted right away when that absurd law passed. Sadly, it now seems like the Supreme Court only decided to hold off on answering that question until they reversed Roe (thus making the law pointless), and so now if New York did the gun version of the Texas law, the Supreme Court would now suddenly decide that they must shut that shit down right away. That said, I don’t think people get quite how much wiggle room the Supreme Court left New York to do a similar new law that’s just different enough to not get struck down next time.

    20. We did Taj a solid last year by giving him the full room exception — no other team would’ve given him that much. So I doubt there is any worry about Taj being back.

      Taj specifically said he took less money to return to the Knicks, stating, “I knew I’d made the right decision. Even if it’s (less) money, money doesn’t move me. I just wanted to be a Knick.” So if they then cut him, would he really just return for half the money?

    21. I understand you get more space by waiving Taj. But not having the cap hold for the 11th pick doesn’t reduce our total salary, it just means our salary bill doesn’t increase from being at the cap.

    22. I don’t think our moves should be conditioned to Taj. I love him, and think we should offer the vet min to keep him, and later a position in the coaching staff. But if he wants to chase more money or a team that has a better chance at winning, we wish him good luck and carry on.

    23. And everyone here seems fixated on Brunson. I agree Brunson is good, but Dallas is likely to keep him (although it’s nice their fans are worried). Murray has been mentioned but DiAngelo Russell is lurking and his team actually wants to trade him.

    24. Well, the cap needs explaining, right?
      1 – Randle’s incentives are now deemed unlikely so his salary has come down from 26.1M to 23.7M; That’s 2.4M in savings;
      (at this point only Taj’s non guaranteed money is keeping us above the cap, by a little margin – 2.4M)
      2 – Once the cap hold for the 11th pick and Kemba got off the books, we are below the cap by 11.2M;
      3 – If we waive Taj (5.2M) we get to 16.4M; That’s the practical cap we have now;

      People that are talking about 18M in cap are assuming we waive the cap holds, but why would we waive Mitch’s cap hold (1.8M) ??

    25. I understand you get more space by waiving Taj. But not having the cap hold for the 11th pick doesn’t reduce our total salary, it just means our salary bill doesn’t increase from being at the cap.

      Yes, it does, because the cap hold for the #11 pick was already factored into the Knicks being over the cap this year. Remember, the cap increased by $10 million from last year.

    26. DRed:
      This kid Keels is the fattest guard drafted by an NBA team since 2010.Apparently he played defensive end in HS.He doesn’t turn 19 until August so perhaps there is some downsize upside to his game.Seems like he’s destined for Westchester

      Our very own Talen Horton-Tucker! Yippee!

      lol all jokes aside- didn’t THT have a similar draft profile? That is exactly who I see in Keels. That was a pick that does us no good. Take that 2nd round swing on Davison or a 5 that can shoot.

    27. Finally i read all your comments, it’s always amusing when KB is mad at the Knicks, we get a lot of funny comments. :D

    28. Knick fan not in NJ:
      And everyone here seems fixated on Brunson.I agree Brunson is good, but Dallas is likely to keep him (although it’s nice their fans are worried).Murray has been mentioned but DiAngelo Russell is lurking and his team actually wants to trade him.

      Remember that Brunson is unrestricted. Dallas can want to keep him and he can still leave. Given the relationship between the Brunsons and Leon Rose, it’s basically impossible to imagine that this isn’t already a done deal. Unless Dallas wants to max him out (seems very unlikely given their tax situation), we should assume that Brunson is in the bag. whether that’s a good thing or not is another story.

      (If Brunson is NOT in the bag and we end up spending FA money on crappy players AGAIN, then Rose and co. should show themselves out)

    29. Meanwhile – sports is a great distraction, but SCOTUS continues their rampage, overturning Roe v Wade. Unbelievable how a minority “conservative” movement has been able to run roughshod overt the majority with guns, voting rights, and now abortion.

    30. Frank:
      Meanwhile – sports is a great distraction, but SCOTUS continues their rampage, overturning Roe v Wade. Unbelievable how a minority “conservative” movement has been able to run roughshod overt the majority with guns, voting rights, and now abortion.

      Dems failed to confirm Garland, allowed Trump to get elected, but more than anything RBG fucked this country for the next several decades.

    31. Last night really felt like a good encapsulation of this front office – the moves stand on their own pretty well, certainly nothing is egregious on its own. But when you zoom out and try to see the bigger picture it looks awfully fuzzy.

    32. Detroit would have to improve their record by something like 20 wins in order for that pick to convey next year.

      We haven’t cleared enough room to sign Brunson (or Kyrie) so we’re obviously going to make more moves and use more draft capital to free up cap space. At least Thibs won’t be pressured to play younger players.

    33. The irksome part about today (ignoring world news) is that for a fan, so many of the shitty teams made moves that are really exciting and that can leave a little smile on your face as you go to sleep. OKC, Detroit, Houston, and so on. For Knicks fans, it’s just a frown and a furrowed brow.

    34. Spending assets to free up cap space to target a specific player is certainly a viable strategy. But the last 2 times this franchise utilised that strategy it failed, and then failed spectacularly. And at least those times we were targeting MVP-level players. So like most here, I am holding my breath.

    35. BernieEarnie: the last 2 times this franchise utilised that strategy it failed, and then failed spectacularly. And at least those times we were targeting MVP-level players.

      When all else fails, lower your standards.

    36. We are losing ground to other teams*, some of which Raven mentioned in his post. This offseason remains palpably incomplete. I believe Leon knows he is on the Dolan clock and must make moves to make the team certainly a playoff team next year with a shot at getting to the ECF in 2 or 3 years. Whether inking Jalen Brunson and Mitch does that, I will leave it to the wiser minds on this board.

      (*) I imagine Pistons fans are pretty happy and now can look forward to how Troy Weaver spends all of that cap money recently freed up.

    37. The difference between Brunson and DeAngelo Russell is that Brunson is a good NBA player

    38. Russell was much better last year, but MIN had to run a weird scheme to hide him. He effectively played help defense/free safety and let Vanderbilt & others guard the PG. It worked pretty well. I doubt Thibs changes his scheme that much.

      I also just have no idea how you play him in the playoffs.

    39. I’m going to say, i liked what Leon did. Once the 8th pick was made (Daniels), the board was left with no player better than Grimes. He was a 25th pick last year, would be a lottery pick this year, maybe even top10. Totally understandable to trade out of this very weak draft.
      Now about the trades, let’s say Kemba was dumped on DET for two 2RPs. It’s fair price, right?
      Then we transformed #11 (on a very weak draft) and two 2RPs into THREE first round picks. This is a win!
      And even with the protections, the picks have 99% chance of conveying, they’re not like the 19th pick last year that had a not negligible chance of not conveying as a 1RP and (even worse!) it was a strong draft. You can’t trade out of a strong draft for picks around the same positions. Leon must have learned from his mistake, as this year trade is the opposite, he fleeced OKC (but they don’t care, they have 1RPs in excess).
      I give Leon a good grade this time, there i said it. :)

    40. Back here after a long KB absence due to life, work, and the pursuit of happiness…. Are we in the good times yet?

    41. DRed and EarlyBird, I don’t actually want Russell, but he is on the market and the Knicks reportedly paying attention. I’d actually like Kyrie if he wasn’t too expensive, but only Hubert agrees with me, and anyway he will be expensive.

    42. Knick fan not in NJ:
      DRed and EarlyBird, I don’t actually want Russell, but he is on the market and the Knicks reportedly paying attention.I’d actually like Kyrie if he wasn’t too expensive, but only Hubert agrees with me, and anyway he will be expensive.

      Oh yeah, I’m not saying you do want him. Just giving my opinion on him.

      And Kyrie would be a great basketball move. If we move Fournier and one of Noel or Burks, we could sign him outright. Hopefully only for a couple of years at a time.

    43. cybersoze:
      I’m going to say, i liked what Leon did. Once the 8th pick was made (Daniels), the board was left with no player better than Grimes. He was a 25th pick last year, would be a lottery pick this year, maybe even top10. Totally understandable to trade out of this very weak draft.
      Now about the trades, let’s say Kemba was dumped on DET for two 2RPs. It’s fair price, right?
      Then we transformed #11 (on a very weak draft) and two 2RPs into THREE first round picks. This is a win!
      And even with the protections, the picks have 99% chance of conveying, they’re not like the 19th pick last year that had a not negligible chance of not conveying as a 1RP and (even worse!) it was a strong draft. You can’t trade out of a strong draft for picks around the same positions. Leon must have learned from his mistake, as this year trade is the opposite, he fleeced OKC (but they don’t care, they have 1RPs in excess).
      I give Leon a good grade this time, there i said it. :)

      The strategy is good, the execution… not so much

    44. Coming here as a distraction from the world…hell of a time to be studying for the bar, what with it becoming evident the law is fake.

      Agree with the emerging consensus that 11 for three firsts probably worse than 11, but that will likely at least eventually be firsts isn’t bad in a vacuum. It might even be kind of good, since 1-10 in this draft was pretty much “the ten players in the draft I liked minus Tari Eason.” Side note: it also shows how dumb the 19th pick trade was, this is what these kinds of trade outs are supposed to look like!

      Dumping four seconds for Kemba isn’t worth getting super excited about since you can often buy those, but it definitely is indicative of shoddy process to be attaching picks to expiring contracts you signed less than a calendar year ago. People said *at the time* these would not be valuable contracts and the idea that we could always painlessly flip them is now basically confirmed to be wrong.

      I’ll say this, if we can sign Brunson without having to attach a first to dump anyone that’s not the worst plan in the world. It’s also not the best, but we’ve done dumber things than maybe overpaying 25 year-old legitimately good players in dollars alone.

      The main thing to be upset about, as others have pointed out, is how badly other teams are lapping us. We have no plan to catch up the OKCs, Houstons, and even Detroits of the world in terms of elite talent accumulation. Put the Knicks in a player pool with those four teams (and probably a bunch of others) and we have the last player picked in a league wide draft.

      It’s really quite hard to get elite talent if you think you’re above building with high draft picks and we’re paying the piper.

    45. Apparently Keels was a very good shooter in HS. Weird that he flopped so bad in college (or HS was a fluke. Maybe his shot can be fixed. He’s very good running the PnR. At 19 on opening day there’s a lot of upside.

      I don’t think Jean Montero makes the roster unless he beats out Keels. Another guy who was highly touted before last year. He had a good shot but it hasn’t fallen the last 2 years. Unlike Keels he at least hit his FTs at a high clip.

    46. Another thing Leon did well, we now know the 2023 draft won’t be the double draft (the one and done rule will stand) so he traded away depressed assets (3 of the 4 seconds we had in 2023) and managed to transform it into two firsts. On top of that, the only 2023 2RP he kept is the best one, from DET. Playing 2 rookies (Ivey and Duren), one sophomore (Cade) and one 3rd year player (Saddiq) on your starting lineup probably means they’ll be tanking again, which means we’ll get one of the top 2RPs in 2023.
      We traded our 2024 2RP, but i don’t know if you guys know, we still have THREE 2024 2RPs, meaning we are still ready for a double draft in the next possible draft for that.
      About the 1RPs, the protections are even good for us if we keep the picks. There’s a good chance WAS conveys the picks in 2024 (top12) by making the play-in as we know they’ll be trying to (and other teams will revert to tanking when it’s obvious they’ll only reach the play-in). DET might convey in 2025 or 2026.
      This means we have our pick and DAL pick (top10) and one of the top 2RPs in 2023. We’ll have our pick and (probably) WAS pick, plus three 2RPs in 2024. And our pick, MIL pick and DET pick in 2025.
      This looks like a good plan about pick distribution in the next 3 years.

    47. Dems failed to confirm Garland, allowed Trump to get elected,

      The Dems didn’t fail to confirm Garland. Republicans controlled the Senate and the Senate confirms the supreme court picks and McConnell refused to even give him a hearing, stonewalling the process for an entire year. Then he flipped around and changed his own reasoning to confirm their pick one month before the election. There was zero ways for the Dems to stop them from doing that both times.

      Sorry, I just really hate it when people blame the Dems for being ineffective or not caring enough to stop Republicans when Republicans have power over the system in a way Dems do not.

      And the Dems also didn’t fail to elect Hillary. I mean, they did and I guess if you want to blame Bernie Bros you can, but the electoral college is set up in such a way that Dems have to have massive turnouts in order to win the election. Republicans can flip a few swing states and win while losing the popular vote by millions.

      I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. The system is set up to reward land, not people. Republicans are handed like 20 senators because the win low population rural states like Wyoming, North Dakota, Kansas, Nebraska, etc…when all of those states combined have less people than Southern California.

      EVen now people are blaming the Dems for not passing legislation but they don’t even have a majority in the senate. its a 50/50 tie with Kamal being the tie breaker. Manchin and Sinema wouldn’t even be an issue if Dems were able to compete for senate seats in the red states.

    48. thenoblefacehumper:

      The main thing to be upset about, as others have pointed out, is how badly other teams are lapping us. We have no plan to catch up the OKCs, Houstons, and even Detroits of the world in terms of elite talent accumulation. Put the Knicks in a player pool with those four teams (and probably a bunch of others) and we have the last player picked in a league wide draft.

      Going to take this a step further, after last night I think in a theoretical draft we have the last player off the board of every team in the league.

      Not great!

    49. The problem with Leon is hubris. He acts like he is smarter than everybody else. He doesn’t need to build up talent like other teams. No, he has a better plan. Taking a swing on young players is beneath him. He already has young players why take more?

      Does he not understand that all these “stars” that he covets were once rookies that teams you know got with draft picks, and that we could get some as well if we actually used our draft picks rather than continually punting them down the road.

      At this point, we really deserve trading for Kyrie.

    50. It’s not just the Dems fault alone. But those are 3 ways they could have avoided this outcome. And they all failed. If Merrick Garland wasn’t palatable maybe they could’ve found someone else. If nobody was palatable, Dems should’ve turned out in full force for the elections and gotten someone else in.

      If Dem voters showed up for the Trump election—they did for Biden or at least to stop Trump—then its avoided.

      This could’ve been prevented. I personally could’ve done more. A lot of people could have. The onus is on us. It’s pointless to sit around blame the system or Republicans and wait for them to change their mind.

    51. thenoblefacehumper: I’ll say this, if we can sign Brunson without having to attach a first to dump anyone that’s not the worst plan in the world. It’s also not the best, but we’ve done dumber things than maybe overpaying 25 year-old legitimately good players in dollars alone.

      But you can, with the moves last night. Now if we stretch-waive Noel, we’ll get to 21.5M which means a 4/92.6M for Brunson. Now just put 2M in unlikely incentives (1M to make the playoffs, 1M if he is Top20 in AST/G) and he’ll be getting a 4/100M contract that is probably the best offer out there for him.

    52. If Merrick Garland wasn’t palatable maybe they could’ve found someone else.

      It had nothing to do with whether Garland was “palatable” to Republicans in the senate who controlled whether he was confirmed or not. Garland was super moderate. Republicans didn’t want to approve ANY additional Obama supreme court pick because they wanted to install super conservative judges of their own. Was Omaha supposed to say “ok, how about I nominate Kavanaugh?”

      McConnell knew what he was doing. He knew if he held out and Republicans got elected (even if it wasn’t Trump) that would mean they would keep their 5-4 majority. Ginsberg dying before the 2020 election and him being able to ram through another one to give them a 6-3 majority was just icing on the cake.

      Dems did show up in the 2016 election, Hillary won the popular vote by almost 2 million votes. Trump won because of literally less than 100K votes in like 3 states.

      Maybe the problem was nominating Hillary because she was “unlikable” or whatever. But still, it’s not like no one showed up to vote and she lost in a landslide. She got way more votes than Trump!

    53. Someone on TV last night made the point that some agents for 2nd round prospects don’t want their players to get drafted because it limits their opportunities to play where they want and get guaranteed money. Undrafted, they can pick somewhere where they are more likely to fit, make the team, and get guaranteed money. So there might be a few undrafted players out there we could pick up for G League or 2-way contracts.

    54. It’s pointless to sit around blame the system or Republicans and wait for them to change their mind.

      I don’t blame Republicans but I think it is fair to point out how the system is stacked against the Democratic party. But I also think Democrats and the left in general needs way more creative thinking and long term strategy. It seems a lot of Dems believe the changing demographics of the country alone will save them. But if people of color and liberals are all concentrated in cities and a few blue states, Dems will rarely control the senate or most of the state governments and that means they won’t ever control the supreme court.

      Changing the system is impossible under current conditions so I do believe Dems and progressives need to start thinking outside the box and also thinking long term. REpublicans have had this plan in the works since the 70’s. They’ve played the long game.

    55. thenoblefacehumper: hell of a time to be studying for the bar, what with it becoming evident the law is fake.

      Not fake. Streamlined,

      The Alito Court is merely simplifying matters. Once it does away with Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell, the only right worthy of constitutional protection will be that to freely own and carry a firearm.

      That’s a whole lot less shit to remember on the bar exam. Passing it will soon be made so much easier.

    56. Ben R: The problem with Leon is hubris. He acts like he is smarter than everybody else. He doesn’t need to build up talent like other teams. No, he has a better plan. Taking a swing on young players is beneath him. He already has young players why take more?

      Basically, when Dolan is considering candidates for the POBO position he hears two broad perspectives.

      Random Masai underling who would probably be great: “I can fix this but, but I’ve got to be honest with you it’ll take time. What the Knicks really need is to undergo a methodical process of asset accumulation.”

      Leon Rose/Phil Jackson/Isaiah Thomas: “I will get you superstars by sheer force of will.”

      He’s always going to pick the latter guy.

    57. Well, as Swift is not being as optimistic as he usually is, i’m here to pick up the slack. I would pivot to play the youth and rebuild, but since we’re not doing that, getting Brunson and re-signing Mitch looks like a good plan. It all depends on Randle’s rehabilitation and commitment to change his style of play, but we can always try to trade him at the deadline if he refuses to align with the team’s plan.
      I say it again, we now can sign Brunson for 23M AAV, maybe 25M with incentives that are easy but will be deemed unlikely when we sign him, without wasting a single one of our vast draft assets. And then re-sign Mitch with the bird rights.
      Team for 2022-23:
      Brunson/DRose/Deuce + Fournier/Quick/Keels + RJ/Burks/Grimes + Randle/Obi/Cam + Mitch/Sims/Taj
      (Grimes is the only 3rd stringer that deserves to play heavy mins, but DRose is a injury risk, so he either plays more when DRose goes down or we can trade one vet midway through the season to get him mins)

    58. swiftandabundant:
      It’s pointless to sit around blame the system or Republicans and wait for them to change their mind.

      I don’t blame Republicans but I think it is fair to point out how the system is stacked against the Democratic party. But I also think Democrats and the left in general needs way more creative thinking and long term strategy. It seems a lot of Dems believe the changing demographics of the country alone will save them. But if people of color and liberals are all concentrated in cities and a few blue states, Dems will rarely control the senate or most of the state governments and that means they won’t ever control the supreme court.

      Changing the system is impossible under current conditions so I do believe Dems and progressives need to start thinking outside the box and also thinking long term. REpublicans have had this plan in the works since the 70’s. They’ve played the long game.

      Yeah. That’s fair I’m just upset. But the Dems need to figure out a way to do more anyways.

    59. Anyway, back to basketball and my posting too much habits:

      Here’s a lot of words on Montero.

      Sunmary: He’s very good at creating space for pull-up 3s and took a lot of them. As he gets older hopefully he learns how to get them to go in. Can string together multiple dribble moves effortlessly.

      Very good steal & reb (including ORebs) numbers for a “non-athlete”.

      Here’s a <a href="https://twitter.com/APachecoNBA/status/1540361662024372227?t=5TfolH6Tei–UK3LfM4HwA&s=19"much shorter thread with video on Keels.

    60. Is there any way to dump Randle? Please tell me there’s some way to dump Randle. I could get behind Brunson-Quickley-RJ-Obi-Mitch as a starting five with Rose, Grimes, Reddish, Sims et al off the bench. Randle and RJ in the same lineup taking all the shots is just too many bricks for this team to ever be any good.

    61. I’m not as optimistic today because I really do love the unwrapping the presents to discover the new, shiny toy glow of the post draft and we all got a little blue balled last night without us making a first round pick of some sort. EVen with a weak draft, there’s gotta be someone we could have picked with #11 or trade down a few spots to pick up an asset and still make a pick. To not draft anyone (not counting a late 2nd rounder) feels weird.

      But if we’re really bringing back Mitch, shedding a few more vets and signing a youngish PG like Brunson, I can get behind that. Brunson ain’t an all star but he’s a pretty good player who plays a position we desperately need an upgrade at. If there’s one position where going from god awful to competent and steady can positively affect the whole team, it’s the PG position. Brunson has the chance to do that with a guy who fits in nicely with the timeline of our other young players. I believe in the future of RJ, IQ, Obi, Mitch and Grimes probably more than a lot of people here, so if that is the plan, I can get behind it. And hey, we still haven’t traded all our young players and picks for the next Melo, so it ain’t all bad!

    62. this was in espn+ draft trade evaluation…not much more than others have already posted

      New York Knicks: B+
      Let’s start with the cap piece of this for the Knicks. Shedding this year’s No. 11 pick (with a cap hold of $4.5 million) and Walker (due to make $9.2 million in the final season of his contract), New York has gone from entering the draft projecting right around the $122 million cap estimate to suddenly having a modest amount of room.

      If the Knicks waive Taj Gibson, whose $5.16 million salary for 2022-23 is non-guaranteed, they could create $16 million in cap room while retaining Bird rights to re-sign unrestricted free agent Mitchell Robinson. That leaves New York one key move away from an offer that could make the Dallas Mavericks think twice about re-signing guard Jalen Brunson.

      By trading either Alec Burks or Nerlens Noel, the Knicks would create more than $24 million in cap room, enough to make Brunson a four-year offer well north of $100 million. Given Burks recently underwent foot surgery (as first reported by Fred Katz of The Athletic) while Noel was limited to 25 games last season, that will likely require additional draft compensation. That’s where the future picks New York added might come in.

      In exchange for the No. 11 pick, the Knicks got three 2023 first-rounders from Oklahoma City with varying degrees of protection. The one they flipped to the Hornets, originally from the Denver Nuggets, is easily the most likely to convey next year but has the least upside. It will probably be a pick in the 20s, requiring New York to add in many of the team’s future second-rounders to get the No. 13 pick from Charlotte.

      Subsequently, the Knicks flipped that 13th pick and Walker to the Pistons for the 2025 Milwaukee first-round pick Detroit acquired in yesterday’s reported deal sending Jerami Grant to Portland.

      Ultimately, New York comes away with three future first-rounders in exchange for the No. 11 pick, four second-rounders and…

    63. Ultimately, New York comes away with three future first-rounders in exchange for the No. 11 pick, four second-rounders and Walker. The Knicks seem to be betting on two things: the possibility that some of those picks become more tantalizing as the protections on the Detroit and Washington first-rounders diminish over time, and that pushing the picks into the future preserves their trade value.

      It’s unlikely any one of the three picks New York landed will be as good as the two the team traded away, but the Knicks have given themselves multiple bites at the apple and more currency to offload salary ahead of next week’s start to free agency.

    64. JK47: Is there any way to dump Randle? Please tell me there’s some way to dump Randle. I could get behind Brunson-Quickley-RJ-Obi-Mitch as a starting five with Rose, Grimes, Reddish, Sims et al off the bench. Randle and RJ in the same lineup taking all the shots is just too many bricks for this team to ever be any good.

      In ninja mode you also dumped Fournier and Burks. LOL
      I’m not worried about Fournier/Burks, because i think we can trade them easily at the deadline, but i’m totally with you on dumping Randle right now. If the picks last night are for that, that’d be a very good use of #11 and some 2nd rounders, don’t you think?

    65. I doubt we’re dumping Randle this offseason unless there’s a clearly beneficial trade available.

      FA PG/Rose/IQ
      Fournier/IQ
      RJ/Grimes
      Randle/Obi
      Mitch/Sims

      That’s a very good rotation. Randle just needs to give a shit on defense.

    66. I essentially agree with the ESPN take. If you had said before the draft that what we’d end up doing would be to trade #11 and some seconds for Brunson at $24 mil per year, I’d have said, good job.

      Would anyone argue that Brunson is worse than a league-average PG? That kind of player is more valuable to the Knicks precisely because their lack of said player contributed directly to a train-wreck of a season where Randle, thrust into more of a point role, came completely apart. A genuine PG should change that.

      So, at minimum, the team should be much better next year, and most likely better than two years ago – while having ADDED assets. That team would only go so far in the best of circumstances, but would have the assets to acquire a genuine superstar if one became available (ideally one who doesn’t believe the earth is flat).

      Considering Daniels was gone, I’m ok with this plan. A case could be made that trading down for Eason was the better play, but if I were pressed to decide myself, I think I’d be 50/50 on it. I guess if I knew I was trading RJ and a few vets for picks and truly focusing on the IQ/Obi/Mitch/Grimes core, Eason would have been the move, but that simply wouldn’t be possible in NYC. So, yeah, a B grade seems about right.

    67. Montero probably told teams not to draft him in the 2nd round. He’s got some intrigue. He was projected to be a lottery pick a year or so ago and didn’t play badly in the OTE. Most models passed on trying to deal with OTE numbers but he was around 20th in the few I saw that tried. He is at least *theoretically* a good fit for our roster, but he’s three years from having a legal drink so it’ll be a while if it ever happens.

      No one has any clue what this means for NBA translation yet, but he averaged 24/10.6/6.7 with 4.9 steals per 40. Shot 50.3% on twos and 27.5% from three, 77% free throw percentage though.

      Should be fun in summer league at least.

    68. I have trouble believing it’ll take much to move Burks. He is a good player on essentially an expiring contract. Any team that has a TPE that size might be able to take him without much effort at all. If anything, Dallas should try to get him in a S&T, would be very good for them as trading for him would still let them use their taxpayer MLE to get an additional player. Again, according to a list I saw online, here are the teams that could take him directly into a TPE:

      Boston
      Brooklyn
      Dallas
      Indiana
      Clippers (before new league year)
      Utah (before new league year)

      Of these, Brooklyn and the Clippers in particular seem to be good possibilities as they are way above the luxury tax and probably unable to get someone of his caliber since they have only the taxpayer MLE. And again, trading him into the exception allows them to also add a player with the taxpayer MLE.

      Noel is another story, but is probably still a neutral asset. I cannot imagine it will take a 1st round pick to move either.

    69. We really have to dump Randle for this team to be anything but a slog next year. We don’t have a clear path to being all that good, but the add Brunson/subtract Randle iteration could at least be pretty watchable.

    70. thenoblefacehumper:
      Montero probably told teams not to draft him in the 2nd round. He’s got some intrigue. He was projected to be a lottery pick a year or so ago and didn’t play badly in the OTE. Most models passed on trying to deal with OTE numbers but he was around 20th in the few I saw that tried. He is at least *theoretically* a good fit for our roster, but he’s three years from having a legal drink so it’ll be a while if it ever happens.

      No one has any clue what this means for NBA translation yet, but he averaged 24/10.6/6.7 with 4.9 steals per 40. Shot 50.3% on twos and 27.5% from three, 77% free throw percentage though.

      Should be fun in summer league at least.

      I think I miscounted roster spots, we can keep him if we move Noel or Burks for Brunson. I’m also assuming we keep Taj on a min deal.

      It’s worth noting that we can confirm a deal with Brunson in FA before moving Burks or Noel.

      Tyus Jones can probably be had for the $16M we have without losing more draft capital.

    71. thenoblefacehumper: Agree with the emerging consensus that 11 for three firsts probably worse than 11, but that will likely at least eventually be firsts isn’t bad in a vacuum.

      it is bad in a vacuum…. the only saving grace is that it was a bad draft where that sort of return is somewhat forgivable but probably still bad….

      getting three late firsts for the #11 pick is probably fair value if all those picks are in the same year…. but we’re getting picks that probably won’t convey for a number of years.. if they convey at all… so they’re much worse than three late firsts… there’s a time value of money/picks that need to be accounted for and the whole reason why last year’s pick got incinerated (twice)….

      the mistake is less bad this year since there are less options and we got more picks… so we got closer to fair value… but the actual strategy of not taking a pick with a roster this bereft of top flight talent is either arrogance or stupidity…. if there’s anything this front office is known for is that they are laser focused on maybe a few guys going into the draft and if they don’t get them they nope out pretty quick…. and the only way that approach actually works is if you are highly HIGHLY accurate on your calls and they just haven’t been….

      no.. the roster still needs good young talent… even contenders and champions understand this…. even if we fill the roster with your burks’s .. roses.. and noels… punting on picks and picking low upside guys like quickley and grimes isn’t going to move the needle …

      and then clearing picks and jettisoning out 1 year deals for future draft capital for a FA signing is usually reserved for the likes of KD and Lebron… and we’re doing that for… Jalen Brunson… i like Jalen Brunson.. actually i love Jalen Brunson and i love him for this team.. but this is stupid ..

    72. Some picks generate interest as per time value of money.

      Other picks are more like cars, they lose half their value as soon as you take them off the lot.

      And presumably the trade is three 1sts *plus* Brunson for #11.

    73. It may not be perfect per say, but it looks like the Knicks are playing the long game with pick stashing and accumulation. And they’re setting themselves up to pivot from last summer’s free agency signings w/out any serious mortgaging. Sure, I’d love the K’s to also finally land that PG we all want, and to hope that RJ takes another step forward next year along with probably trading Randle. Outside of those things, this is what our boys need to be doing. So I’m down with Cyber and ESPN+’s evals.

    74. djphan: it is bad in a vacuum…. the only saving grace is that it was a bad draft where that sort of return is somewhat forgivable but probably still bad….

      Oh yeah I mean I was accounting for the context of this draft. The only player remaining in my personal top 11 when we were picking was Eason, and I probably would’ve picked him over the three firsts we got FWIW. However I think that’s a close-ish call and I don’t think the alternative is stupid.

      There are definitely drafts in which this would’ve been a disastrous trade. If Tyrese Haliburton was on the board I’d be apoplectic. In this draft though I was downright despondent with how 1-10 went from the Knicks’ perspective, so I don’t hate this option.

    75. If Randle and RJ are taking most of the shots again next year this team is probably going to be weak again. Unless Fluke Julius and the ISM make a return to the Garden.

    76. BTW – sorry I’ve been MIA for a minute. A lot going on behind the scenes – some I can chat about, and some is TBD… about to fly back east to the ‘Cuse to handle some real estate business. If all works well, I’ll be selling my house and looking to “trade-up” for a better conditioned rental property. Also been dealing with some ID theft stuff for the past 3 months – someone in TX stole my ish and has been selling my SS# hard. Got a bunch of fraudulent telecom accounts that’s hit collections – and my credit report. I got an investigator who’s on it though.

      Hey JK! Sorry to hear that you had to ditch the podcast, though I can definitely see why once you explained what was going on with your partner.

    77. BTW #2: I got more Lakerland delusion for you guys’ enjoyment:

      Because Laker fans wouldn’t know a chess move if they saw one (if you said “King me”, they’d think you’re trying to call yourself LeBron), I got a litany of LOLKnicks text from – who else – the coworkers and AD supv this morning. Here’s the yuks:

      “So the Knicks have no intention of being good any time soon”
      “So the Knicks want to be a HS team again”
      “You’re still banking on Julius Randle as the next coming” (note: Laker fans believe they’re too good for Randle, and that was before the past 2-3 seasons took place. Like, they’re kinda right to be down on Randle but not for the same reasons we are… lol)
      “…the Knicks will never be good lol”
      …some comment about the Knicks not being good enough for the CIF Southern Section…
      …Spike Lee called our men’s bball coach after Last Chance U came out and begged him to coach the K’s but Coach said he only coaches winners…
      They also think they’re getting Bradley Beal.

    78. If one projects a future team with $85-90 million going to Randle, Brunson, RJ, and Mitch, it is hard to see the Knicks making a deep run into the playoffs. While the moves last night were not egregious, one has to wonder if selecting the 11th player on the Knicks’ draft board and then letting Kemba, Noel, Burks, and Rose expire wouldn’t have been a better option.

      Of course, only time will tell.

    79. Addicted To The Knicks:
      If one projects a future team with $85-90 million going to Randle, Brunson, RJ, and Mitch, it is hard to see the Knicks making a deep run into the playoffs. While the moves last night were not egregious, one has to wonder if selecting the 11th player on the Knicks’ draft board and then letting Kemba, Noel, Burks, and Rose expire wouldn’t have been a better option.

      Of course, only time will tell.

      The endgame is almost certainly a star trade with our future picks.

    80. so i guess what i meant to say is that the trade itself is bad …but not horrible…. but how it fits within the overall strategy .. as well as the strategy itself… IS horrible… we punted on the 19th pick to get .. cam reddish… we’re now then punting on the 11th pick because we made stupid deals last offseason so we can have a CHANCE at jalen brunson…

      i mean this very board last year made the bulls into a laughingstock for their moves which involved trading draft capital for derozan in a sign and trade and giving ball a 4/20 deal… is this not a very similar thing? and i understand working with what you got and trying to make the most of your opportunities… but the 19th pick last year and even the 11th pick this year were not nothing.. and the problem is that they are being treated as side shows to this ‘One Big Deal’ that was once Damian Lillard but now actually might just be Jalen Brunson…

      do people not notice how far we’ve had to move the goalposts on this?

    81. But then the season started and DeRozan was really good and The Bulls were at one point first in the East and made the playoffs. So no one was laughing at them anymore.

      This board tends to look at team building through the very limited lens of asset accumulation and optimization. Not saying that strategy isn’t wrong but GM’s are also looking at it from a team building perspective.

      The team won 37 games, not 20.

    82. Dj I think my personal opinion on our overall direction is well established. I’ll put an even finer point on it: I think we have chosen the path that makes acquiring elite talent *literally* as difficult as possible in the NBA. It’s mind bogglingly dumb, boring, and uncreative. It is no exaggeration to say we might have the least exciting roster in the association.

      Having said that I still think trading our 2022 first for three future mediocre-to-decent firsts was a B-ish move.

    83. The Bulls were worse than us by SRS last year.

      DeRozan & Vucevic don’t have much time left.

      We’re younger, deeper, and we have more future picks than them.

    84. hit post before I finished.

      Leon probably thinks Brunson fixes a lot of our problems. He probably thinks we have a good collection of young players and Randle isn’t a lost cause. If you look at the young players we have and the future picks we have, there is a chance to get a guy like Brunson, keep all or almost all of our young players, grow as a team and still make a move down the road for a legit star. But he’s not simply in collect as many young prospects as we can mode. I get that people think we should do that but 37 wins isn’t no man’s land if it’s just one season. If we do all this and still only win 37 games then it’s time to really worry. But I often get the feeling that people on this board think a team should go from 15 to 20 wins to 50 wins with no steps in between.

    85. djphan – we are all thinking the same way you are.
      All this work for a player like Brunson seems very uninspiring.
      It is quite different than Chicago though – Chicago blew basically all their tradeable assets (minus a 1st rounder perhaps) for a team that clearly had a 1st or 2nd round ceiling. We still have tons of tradeable assets including young players and a relatively large surplus of picks (I think 4 extra 1RPs and 4 extra 2RPs each over the next 7 years).

    86. I think signing Brunson is a great move. I do not think trading out of the draft and using real draft capital to move Kemba was necessary to make that happen.

      I think the first trade last night was okay and then the second trade was great, it was the third one that fucked everything up and makes me really worry for our future.

      If we had just traded 11 for 3 picks I’d give it a C, if we include the trade for pick 13 I’d give it an A. If we had stopped at that and it was #11 and four 2nds for #13 and two 1sts that is awesome, take Eason and I am signing Leon’s praises. Instead we moved a lottery pick for $6 million in cap relief and a very bad 1st 3 years from now.

      Getting Brunson does not make the Kemba Walker trade good, we could easily sign him without that trade.

    87. Getting Brunson does not make the Kemba Walker trade good, we could easily sign him without that trade.

      Or, you know, maybe we can’t. Maybe Leon has been looking for deals for various contracts – Burks, Noel, Kemba – and determined that we weren’t getting rid of them without sweetener. And not getting rid of them would mean running back the same team, except with a #11 pick that almost certainly wouldn’t be a useful player this year. I’m pretty certain that would be graded a D by people – if not during the draft, then during the season when it became clear we still had no workable point guard.

    88. swiftandabundant: Leon probably thinks Brunson fixes a lot of our problems. He probably thinks we have a good collection of young players and Randle isn’t a lost cause. If you look at the young players we have and the future picks we have, there is a chance to get a guy like Brunson, keep all or almost all of our young players, grow as a team and still make a move down the road for a legit star. But he’s not simply in collect as many young prospects as we can mode.

      i happen to think Brunson will be great for this team…. but ultimately what does that mean? an 8th seed maybe? there’s almost zero upside to any of Rose’s moves since he got here… all the future picks they acquired have onerous protections on it.. the picks they do make have no chance to be all stars… and they are blowing all their cap space on guys who are either old or were bench pieces or both…. you cannot win like this…

      Frank: It is quite different than Chicago though – Chicago blew basically all their tradeable assets (minus a 1st rounder perhaps) for a team that clearly had a 1st or 2nd round ceiling. We still have tons of tradeable assets including young players and a relatively large surplus of picks (I think 4 extra 1RPs and 4 extra 2RPs each over the next 7 years).

      the only reason it’s not exactly like chicago is because Rose was gifted with additional draft capital from the prior regime…. aside from that we are acting in similar desperation to add what is likely worse talent on the roster… desperation that was self-inflicted from last offseason’s mistakes….

      in terms of tradeable young players none of the guys .. save for RJ… will bring back anything of actual value… unless you think Grimes or IQ is the centerpiece to get a superstar here…

    89. What’s pretty interesting looking at lineup data for Mavs last year — Brunson and Luka were synergistic — lineups that had both of them in with DFS+Bullock (ie. the starters) were a crazy +14.8 net rating in 1000+ possessions. But take either of them out and they net rating just plummeted.

      Brunson+DFS+Bullock but NO Luka: +3.9 net rating (~650 possessions)
      Luka+DFS+Bullock but NO Brunson: +2.9 net rating (~650 possessions)

      A little disconcerting is that the Brunson lineups were pretty meh with Powell (ie. traditional dive big) and electric with 5’s that can shoot (KP, Kleber)… unfortunately we don’t have any 5s that can shoot.

      djphan: i happen to think Brunson will be great for this team…. but ultimately what does that mean? an 8th seed maybe? there’s almost zero upside to any of Rose’s moves since he got here… all the future picks they acquired have onerous protections on it.. the picks they do make have no chance to be all stars… and they are blowing all their cap space on guys who are either old or were bench pieces or both…. you cannot win like this…

      Agree completely. Hard to see the big picture here short of a moonshot at a true star.

    90. Brunson will be 26 at season start.

      Randle will turn 27 in 5ish months.

      So here’s everyone under 27:

      Brunson/IQ/Rokas/Montero
      Grimes/Deuce/Keels
      RJ/Cam
      Randle/Obi
      Mitch/Sims

      That’s 13 fairly to very young players as our core.

    91. so good to read the words of so many old knickerblogger posters…

      basketball is a tasty dish – hearing a bit of your lives is an endless feast…

    92. Frank: Brunson and Luka were synergistic — lineups that had both of them in with DFS+Bullock (ie. the starters) were a crazy +14.8 net rating in 1000+ possessions. But take either of them out and they net rating just plummeted.

      How much of that is the lack of creators outside of Luka & Brunson.

      Until they got Dinwiddie for the last 20 games, every other player on the Mavs had over 70% of their FGs assisted.

      DFS & Bullock aren’t doing much other than standing outside the 3pt arc.

    93. If the team just held onto our picks and focused on young players we could actually be in a pretty good position quickly. We won’t do it of course, but replace Rose with a long-term focused GM and the hoard of assets we have looks pretty good.

      I still think the draft was a small win. Trading #11 + Kemba + 4 seconds for two mid-firsts and 1 late first is positive value. It’s the fact that our draft picks will get traded for vets that is the problematic part of the strategy.

    94. Guys the data clearly shows Brunson is a better player than Luka Doncic and you folks wouldn’t be excited to sign him?

      Brunson+DFS+Bullock but NO Luka: +3.9 net rating (~650 possessions)
      Luka+DFS+Bullock but NO Brunson: +2.9 net rating (~650 possessions)

    95. The picks we gave up in Kemba kerfuffle:

      2022 MIA/DAL = 57 & 56
      2022 UTA 2nd = 52
      2022 DEN 1st = 21

      Denver got 9 games from Porter and ZERO games from Murray. They’re gonna be better.

      These are not good picks we gave up.

    96. He’s relatively young and he plays PG which are two big requirements but I feel like Brunson’s game is actually kind of an awkward fit for this team. He really likes those burrowing drives where he pivots back and forth like 3 times and eventually finds his way to a layup. Those are going to look quite a bit different when he’s playing on our extremely spacing challenged team than on the Mavs who are pretty dedicated to spacing the floor for Luka I feel.

    97. I like Brunson, but the problem for me is that a Knicks team with both Brunson and Randle on it means even less time on the court for IQ and Obi. Which, to be honest, is pretty much the only reason I tune into the games these days. (Well, that and McBride, which is really just the last three minutes of any game…)

      Maybe Quick isn’t the answer at the point, but the team sure looked good with him at the helm and Obi out surfing the wake like a porpoise those last few games.

    98. I cannot believe that the $3 million we saved by not simply stretching Kemba would be the reason we wouldn’t be able to sign Brunson.

      Plus running it back with no Randle and a couple players from this draft would have been fine by me. I would rather win 35 games with IQ as our PG and Toppin, Grimes, and a couple rookies than fight to win 42 games with no cap space, no rookies, Brunson, Randle, and less development from Toppin and IQ.

    99. Brunson is essentially 2020-21 Derrick Rose except healthier and younger. Rose was probably the best player on that “good” Knicks team.

    100. The Mavs side of things: https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2022/6/24/23181616/paying-jalen-brunson-whatever-it-takes-makes-sense-nba-free-agency-dallas-mavericks

      This article makes it clear that the only 2 acceptable outcomes for Mavs are for them to pay Brunson whatever it takes (and therefore costing Cuban a ginormous amount of $ — probably $80-90MM in luxury tax on top of $180MM in salary) or for them to take whatever we give them in S&T — presumably that is Burks or Noel to make it work under the BYC rules.

      I can’t do this math in my head, but I wonder whether there is any way for us to remain above the cap so we don’t lose MLE? Perhaps by including the Mavs in the deal with Detroit with Kemba somehow?

      Have to also wonder… let’s say Cuban lets Brunson walk, and Dallas is basically hamstrung and stuck in neutral for the next few years because it’s very hard to make substantive improvements when you’re in the tax and without premium draft picks (and why the Warriors are such an exceptional case). Maybe in 2 years Luka wants out — and guess who might be waiting lol…

    101. Frank: I can’t do this math in my head, but I wonder whether there is any way for us to remain above the cap so we don’t lose MLE? Perhaps by including the Mavs in the deal with Detroit with Kemba somehow?

      I don’t think it’s doable as Brunson needs to wait for the new year to start on July 1st before he can sign for $25M. It’s been reported that Kemba is going into the Grant exception which expires at the end of this NBA year.

      It might be possible to postpone until July 1st but it gets tricky because I assume DET is gonna keep Bagley now and he has a $28M hold. That puts them over the cap to stop the deal from working. Even if Bagley signs for $18M it’s not quite enough room.

      I don’t know what we do with the $10M MLE anyway, there’s no room in the rotation. We can fill a 3rd string spot with the room at $5M. I’d be surprised if someone significant comes to play behind 2-3 other guys.

    102. I think us missing on Brunson or even worse chasing Irving or Russell or Sexton are real possibilities. I can also see us then filling Kemba’s cap space with a mediocre vet on a one year contract as a real possibility.

      This story probably does not end well. I seriously doubt Brunson is a done deal, and still would bet he stays in Dallas.

    103. Frank: This article makes it clear that the only 2 acceptable outcomes for Mavs are for them to pay Brunson whatever it takes (and therefore costing Cuban a ginormous amount of $ — probably $80-90MM in luxury tax on top of $180MM in salary) or for them to take whatever we give them in S&T — presumably that is Burks or Noel to make it work under the BYC rules.

      The Mavericks’ salary cap hell is a damn fine warning to those who want to fill out the roster with the NBA’s middle class and wish on a lucky star that they put things together enough. They have 8 players making between $9M and $20M, and that’s not counting Luka’s supermax well above them at $36M, nor whatever it is that Brunson will demand (certainly north of $20M, he’s got them pinned down).

      None of them are abjectly terrible but paying 3 or 4 guys $10M apiece to be league-average while your superstar is about to enter his MVP-aged seasons… not good.

    104. The Honorable Cock Jowles: The Mavericks’ salary cap hell is a damn fine warning to those who want to fill out the roster with the NBA’s middle class and wish on a lucky star that they put things together

      If only there was a single terrible deal that could explain their salary cap hell much better.

      Dinwiddie… Bertans… THJR… 2 missing draft picks…

      Reminds me of something

    105. Couldn’t IQ start with Brunson? IQ made big strides as a PG but he’s probably still more combo than pure pg. and Brunson has played off ball with Doncic. RJ as the 3. I don’t know…could be fun!

    106. If Leon Rose whiffs on Brunson it’s time for him to go. All of the eggs are in the Brunson basket right now.

      If he has been dicking around pissing away first rounders for two years, and the end result is a bunch of mediocre “market value” veterans and a handful of low-value, heavily protected draft picks that don’t convey for many years, then he sucks the big one and it’s time to bring in the next idiot.

    107. Good thread people. Too many things to agree with.

      I like Brunson but I think everyone knows that he. RJ and Randle would be a disaster.I think Brunson knows that.

      I also find it strange that people just wave away the fact that Burks was the best player on the team last year. Which he was right? Or was it Mitch?

      Either way, I don’t feel good about what is about to happen.

      Also, Swift, I could use your optimism about the Knicks, but about America.

    108. Completely agree if we miss on Brunson or an equally appealing alternative (whether Sexton constitutes that is an interesting question) it means we’ve pretty much been on a year-long bender of fucking up.

      A little wrinkle in the Brunson situation is reeling him in comes with the added benefit of making the Mavs’ 2023 pick a tad more appealing. It’s still not all that great because Luka Doncic exists, but maybe something like 20-23 instead of 27-30.

      I am generally pretty pro-Brunson and doubt I’ll be scared off that position by a high AAV. He’s a legitimate impact player who has posted TS+es of 108 and 103 in back to back years on high usage at a position scoring in which efficiency is scarce. As ‘stam mentioned the fit isn’t perfect, but this is a “get good, young players in the building and figure it out” situation.

      What makes the situation frustrating is how obvious it is that none of that applied to the guys we’re now furiously looking to salary dump when we signed them. If we knew, as we seem to know now, that multiyear expensive investments are best saved for players of Brunson’s caliber, what exactly was the point of dicking around with Burks, Noel, et al.? Contrary to what Strat will inevitably reply, we were under zero obligation to spend the money, let alone to do so over multiple years.

      I get they wanted to win as many games as possible in 2021-2022 and in light of 2020-2021 that wasn’t unreasonable, but there were alternatives that were *mentioned at the time.* Would Malik Monk not have taken 1/$10M over the minimum deal he signed? Was the market for Burks so robust he wouldn’t have accepted 1/$15M? We really couldn’t get a 2nd year team option on Kemba? This shit was all foreseeable and is playing out exactly as contemporaneous critics said it could.

    109. “Are you awake? You see everything that’s happening right? F*** what they think. It’s legendary to be different.”

      -Kyrie Irving on Twitter, June 24, 2022

    110. Ben R:
      I think us missing on Brunson or even worse chasing Irving or Russell or Sexton are real possibilities. I can also see us then filling Kemba’s cap space with a mediocre vet on a one year contract as a real possibility.

      This story probably does not end well. I seriously doubt Brunson is a done deal, and still would bet he stays in Dallas.

      This – because Knicks

    111. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the deconstruction of the last few threads! Thanks KB.

      Anyway – I don’t understand the rules around this stuff but is no one else a tiny bit concerned about a tampering charge with Brunson? Several people here have commented that there is almost no way rose could justify the moves without knowing Brunson is coming. Surely the Mavs may also conclude that and raise it with the league?

      I guess we can use the ‘no, we’re really that stupid’ defence by citing the Durrant/kyrie/KP debacle…!

    112. english_knick:
      I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the deconstruction of the last few threads! Thanks KB.

      Anyway – I don’t understand the rules around this stuff but is no one else a tiny bit concerned about a tampering charge with Brunson? Several people here have commented that there is almost no way rose could justify the moves without knowing Brunson is coming. Surely the Mavs may also conclude that and raise it with the league?

      I guess we can use the ‘no, we’re really that stupid’ defence by citing the Durrant/kyrie/KP debacle…!

      Rick can ask him over dinner or whatever. They’re not gonna stop a father talking to his son.

      So far, if you avoid announcing complex deals 12 seconds after the moratorium lifts the NBA has ignored it.

    113. It’s going to be a long and painful off-season with the rumor mill circling around Irving and Durant, that’s for sure.

      I do agree with the sentiment that overpaying Brunson is a decent plan, and I’d take it over the results of last off-season. He’s good and young, so we can figure out the rest later. If the Knicks will always refuse to tank and rebuild properly, at least use the cap on talented players who can feasibly improve over their, even if slightly overpaid, contracts. My fear is that he re-signs with Dallas and Leon goes into desperation mode, because that’s when the crippling stuff happens.

    114. english_knick: Several people here have commented that there is almost no way rose could justify the moves without knowing Brunson is coming. Surely the Mavs may also conclude that and raise it with the league?

      Clearing cap space is not a smoking gun. Teams do it as a matter of common practice. They’d need a lot more than “the Knicks are clearing cap space and our player is hitting free agency” to make that kind of charge stick.

    115. I thought the Knicks were silly not to throw their money at VanVleet back when they could. Brunson is a similar class of player (though probably not as good), but back then it was just Dolan Dollars. Now there’s the whole unloading unwanted contracts to clear space element, which is just proven bad basketball procedure unless it’s for a true impact star. There are no free agents available in 2022 that are worth clearing space for. Let the Pistons mop up this year’s pool like they did when they “won” free agency with Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. There are no players available on July 1st who can put this franchise over the top, so don’t waste time pretending there are Leon. Be real.

    116. Donnie Walsh:
      I thought the Knicks were silly not to throw their moneyat VanVleet back when they could. Brunson is a similar class of player (though probably not as good), but back then it was just Dolan Dollars. Now there’s the whole unloading unwanted contracts to clear space element, which is just proven bad basketball procedure unless it’s for a true impact star. There are no free agents available in 2022 that are worth clearing space for. Let the Pistons mop up this year’s pool like they did when they “won” free agency with Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. There are no players available on July 1st who can put this franchise over the top, so don’t waste time pretending there are Leon. Be real.

      I don’t think there’s anyone – draft or free agent – that’s available right now that can catapult the Knicks to even ECF contention. If you’ll allow me a bit of conjecture, Brunson has shown that he’s a playoff-caliber player. And I think he raises the floor of next year’s team and a lil beyond, which should make the team a low to middling playoff contender depending on improvements from RJ, Quick and Obi. And yes I suppose you could factor a bounce-back season from Randle, but I’m with most of you – I’d rather try to trade him to make room for Obi as a starter.

      Also: aren’t Noel and Burks now 1 + team option 1s for next year? We’re not looking at them as upcoming expiring contracts, or is that no longer a thing?

    117. The Infamous Cdiggy: Also: aren’t Noel and Burks now 1 + team option 1s for next year? We’re not looking at them as upcoming expiring contracts, or is that no longer a thing?

      They are, and DRose too, but what we’re trying to do was never a thing. We’re trying to unload them without taking money back, that always costs assets. Unless the other team wants your player. I thought teams with trade exceptions would want Burks, and maybe they do, but they’ll use it as a last resort and we need to offer the money to Brunson at the beginning of free agency.
      Trying to not waste assets on this, my option would be to stretch-waive Noel which gets us to 21.5M in cap space. Then if that’s not enough to get Brunson and they’ll be making the offer that is rumored (25M), i think a rebuilding team with cap space would take on Cam Reddish without the sweetener.

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