Knicks Morning News (2022.01.27)

  • #SportsReport: Nuggets defeat Nets; Heat best Knicks – WAMC
    [www.wamc.org] — Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:00:00 AM

    #SportsReport: Nuggets defeat Nets; Heat best Knicks  WAMC

  • Knicks vs Heat: Tom Thibodeau on Cam Reddish, Julius Randle’s struggles | Knicks Post Game – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:35:00 AM

    Knicks vs Heat: Tom Thibodeau on Cam Reddish, Julius Randle’s struggles | Knicks Post Game  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks takeaways from Wednesday’s 110-96 loss to Heat, including ineffective starters – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:16:00 AM

    Knicks takeaways from Wednesday’s 110-96 loss to Heat, including ineffective starters  Yahoo Sports

  • NBA Insider on possible friction with Knicks coaching, why James Harden is unhappy in Brooklyn | SportNite – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:07:00 AM

    NBA Insider on possible friction with Knicks coaching, why James Harden is unhappy in Brooklyn | SportNite  Yahoo Sports

  • Collin Sexton hoping for postseason comeback – AL.com
    [www.al.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 11:15:00 PM

    Collin Sexton hoping for postseason comeback  AL.com

  • Knicks hammered by Heat as Julius Randle struggles again – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:37:00 PM

    Knicks hammered by Heat as Julius Randle struggles again  New York Post Julius Randle, Knicks lose to Miami Heat  New York Daily NewsHere’s What Julius Randle Said After The Knicks Beat The Clippers  Sports IllustratedThis might be the New York Knicks most alarming issue  Daily KnicksKnicks need a rotation shakeup, and a Julius Randle-Obi Toppin pairing is among several options  Yahoo SportsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Robinson scores 25 to lead Heat to 110-96 win over Knicks – WDIV ClickOnDetroit
    [www.clickondetroit.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:24:07 PM

    Robinson scores 25 to lead Heat to 110-96 win over Knicks  WDIV ClickOnDetroit

  • Miami 110, N.Y. Knicks 96 – The Advocate
    [www.stamfordadvocate.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:12:18 PM

    Miami 110, N.Y. Knicks 96  The Advocate

  • ESPN’s Jeff Van Gundy: Knicks need to tear up starting unit – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:07:00 PM

    ESPN’s Jeff Van Gundy: Knicks need to tear up starting unit  New York Post

  • Photo Gallery: Heat v. Knicks | Wednesday, January 26, 2022 – Miami Herald
    [www.miamiherald.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:20:54 PM

    Photo Gallery: Heat v. Knicks | Wednesday, January 26, 2022  Miami Herald

  • Knicks Starting Lineup Against The Heat – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:25:29 PM

    Knicks Starting Lineup Against The Heat  Sports Illustrated

  • Nerlens Noel (knee) out for Knicks on Wednesday – numberFire
    [www.numberfire.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 5:35:00 PM

    Nerlens Noel (knee) out for Knicks on Wednesday  numberFire

  • NBA Starting Lineups tonight: Is Kyle Lowry suiting up against the New York Knicks? Miami Heat rule the star… – The Sportsrush
    [thesportsrush.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 5:00:13 PM

    NBA Starting Lineups tonight: Is Kyle Lowry suiting up against the New York Knicks? Miami Heat rule the star…  The Sportsrush

  • Kemba Walker’s starting Knicks role is a Derrick Rose stopgap – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:03:00 PM

    Kemba Walker’s starting Knicks role is a Derrick Rose stopgap  New York Post

  • Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks NBA betting odds, lines, trends – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:00:00 PM

    Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks NBA betting odds, lines, trends  New York Post

  • Mitchell Robinson’s Status For Knicks-Heat Game – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 2:40:27 PM

    Mitchell Robinson’s Status For Knicks-Heat Game  Sports Illustrated

  • MD-Bred Knicks Go Draws Rail In Bid To Repeat At Pegasus World Cup – CBS Baltimore
    [baltimore.cbslocal.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 2:22:00 PM

    MD-Bred Knicks Go Draws Rail In Bid To Repeat At Pegasus World Cup  CBS Baltimore

  • Reacting to Knicks landing ‘dream’ deadline acquisition from the San Antonio Spurs – Empire Sports Media
    [empiresportsmedia.com] — Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:08:49 AM

    Reacting to Knicks landing ‘dream’ deadline acquisition from the San Antonio Spurs  Empire Sports Media

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Administrator on Patreon!

    168 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.01.27)”

    1. Yesterday was the first game in a while where I felt we didn’t have a chance even before the tip off, but somehow I managed to get through the full game, thanks to the youngsters.

      RJ was the best of the starters (plus/minus nothwithstanding), Obi played very well, IQ was effective, Grimes’ energy is a pleasure to watch and I can finally understand why some scouts drool about Reddish*.

      My mantra has been the same for some time, no reason to change it now: PLAY THE KIDS.

      * Chances are he’ll never approach his ceiling and for some reasons he reminds me of Michael Beasley, but the physical tools and raw skills are there. It’s up to him to use them properly.

    2. (lost at the end of the last thread)
      @KFNINJ: I know you’re team optimist, but Thibs has a lot more negative things than those justified by injuries or player’s that don’t meet the expectations. As this season is a disaster, should he tinker the lineups? Should he try a different offense? Should he slow down on the starters’ heavy minutes? I think it’s clear that he’s doing a bad job this year, he’s the coach for God’s sake, he can’t keep doing the same things expecting different results.
      All that said, i wouldn’t change him for now, i think the roster needs to be taken care to align it with our place in the win curve. We must collect picks and/or young players for our vets of value – Randle, Fournier, Burks. Unfortunately i think Kemba won’t have value, so he can be filler in a trade, or we can buy him out for him to go chase a ring with a contender for the minimum.
      I’d keep DRose, Taj and Noel for veteran leadership, and that’s it. And Taj should only play if we don’t have nobody else. Next year he can be an assistant coach, he seems to be a good influence on the young players.

    3. Didn’t get a chance to respond to this yesterday so I’m doing it here.

      thenamestsam: I think we can probably all agree that Thibs seemingly places a low value on aesthetics when it comes to…everything, and if that’s your complaint that’s fine. It is an entertainment product after all and I would happily watch our guys run around a bit more, but yeah I have my doubts about whether it really moves the needle from a results standpoint .

      No, it’s not about aesthetics. It’s about building a good offense for the future. Even though we clearly don’t have the players to build a good offense around that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be have good plays and try to instill good habits in our players.

      About last night, I don’t feel like getting into the whole game but I do want to know why the hell Mitch Robinson was put back into the game in the 4th so he could limp around during a blowout. Why the fuck isn’t Sims put in there so Robinson can get some additional rest and try to heal up?

    4. I think if they decide to trade the vet’s and start over Thibs head will explode and then we will need a new coach. Is Kenny Atkinson available? He would be a nice choice. Rose will have to decide which way he wants to go by this summer and then he will be on the hot seat next.

    5. DudeInKnicksTown:
      Trade everyone over the age of 24.

      Hi Dude!
      To answer one question from the last thread, I can confirm that Reddish scored a layup in his “5-minutes cameo” against the Clippers, you weren’t dreaming… ;-)

    6. I was there. The offense sucked. No open looks. Randle’s body language was terrible. Loved the interactions between RJ, IQ, Grimes, etc. but they’re gonna suck too if they stick with a prehistoric coach. Let Fournier go for a pick or two. Not even sure Kemba sucks as much as he needs a system and an offense.

      Thibs is the main string to pull here.

    7. And for a defensive coach, thibs really can’t fix the 200 open threes opponents get per game huh

    8. Max: Hi Dude!
      To answer one question from the last thread, I can confirm that Reddish scored a layup in his “5-minutes cameo” against the Clippers, you weren’t dreaming… ;-)

      So it really happened, didn’t it?

    9. wetbandit: Randle’s body language was terrible.

      For the few minutes I was able to pay attention to that shit show, it was disturbing watching Randle constantly slump his shoulders and look like he’d basically given up.

      Has anyone in their NBA fan lives ever seen as precipitous a drop by a player from one season to the next? I honestly can’t think of anyone.

    10. My (hopefully) reasonable assessment on Thibs (Z-Man will be the judge)

      – I don’t believe he “Skiles Effected” the team. We went from chaos to order. He created a foundation for players to succeed, where before there was none.

      – One of those players (Randle) just happened to work his ass off in the offseason and put in a career year to get paid, leading us to unsustainable overachievement.

      – We were exposed in the playoffs, and Thibs was especially exposed because he had no Plan B.

      – Thibs did not build enough equity last year to survive a collapse this year. (If we can ship Randle out after last year, we can fire Thibs, too.)

      – He is rigidity is causing problems this year that have led the organization to regress from the point that he helped get us to.

      – He is exhibiting no signs of being able to right the ship.

      – This organization should move away from the vets and pivot to the draft picks, and Thibs is not the best coach for that approach.

    11. The other teams get open threes because Thibs, beyond all sense of understanding and reasons, thinks paint points are some kind of indication of quality defense, even though it’s 2022 and not 2002. It’s dumb af.

      d-mar: Has anyone in their NBA fan lives ever seen as precipitous a drop by a player from one season to the next? I honestly can’t think of anyone.

      Basketball performance is typically pretty even once it’s established. Randle’s drop from 2021 to 2022 might indeed be unprecedented, particularly since there aren’t things like drugs involved. It’s just sheer athletic performance drop.

    12. We desperately need to inject some speed in the starting lineup. Fournier and Kemba are shot- athletically. Fournier was never a great athlete, but he is moving worse than I’ve ever seen him move. Mitch and RJ are the only starters WILLING to get up and down the court, and that magnifies Randle’s miscues because the pace is slow enough for defenses to intensely key in on Randle. Given his propensity for bad turnovers, it makes it look really really bad.

      This is where we are seeing Thibs’ stubborn ego. Remember when he said he won’t bring Kemba off the bench because he views him as a starter? It is painfully obvious that Quickley needs to start, and then we can let Kemba lead the second unit until Rose is back. Then we need to make the Kemba move- whether it’s releasing him so he can sign with a contender, or trading him for a 2nd.

      Then, there’s the curious case of Evan Fournier. With Burks, Reddish, and Grimes on the roster- it’s hard to justify playing him at all right now. Burks is clearly better than Fournier. I wouldn’t mind him as the starting SG alongside Quickley. But you can’t really sit him behind Reddish and Burks with that salary. But he’s not playing well enough to trade him. There’s no way Thibs is taking Grimes out of the rotation. Guys..we may have to package Fournier and Obi- and possibly a pick to get better fitting pieces we can actually use. Yes- this is doom and gloom. We are stuck in the mud. Fournier is the biggest issue- over Randle. Would Dallas accept Fournier for Bullock and cap fodder?

      This is going downhill FAST. And I’m not saying this because of last night. We all know Miami is a better team. But for God’s sake- Fournier couldn’t even keep up with Duncan Robinson! That was a clear example of how bad Fournier is moving this season.

      Leon Rose better be on the phone trying to clear a path for the youth on the team

    13. +1 to Max, Cyber, and Vincoug.

      Thibs seems to have a weakness in his prefrontal cortex. No long term planning. No impulse inhibition. He’s got nothing going on upstairs but “Better get broken-Mitch/broken-DRose/broken-Randle back out there b/c CRISIS!”

      The entire Knicks organization and the fan base is BEGGING for a slow rebuild. He can test any system, any players because nightly wins do not determine his job security, yet Thibs has no plan for the future beyond his last timeout. He almost (almost!) makes me long for Spike Lee’s MSG spots about Phil Jackson. To paraphrase Walter Sobchak, “Say what you want about the tenets of Triangle Socialism. At least it’s an ethos!”

    14. Guys..we may have to package Fournier and Obi- and possibly a pick to get better fitting pieces we can actually use

      I have seen enough flashes from Obi (including some impressive moves last night) to make me not want to trade him until he gets Thibs’ leash dropped.

      There is a coach out there who will see that playing this guy at the 5 creates a shit ton of problems for opposing teams. (FWIW, that probably goes for Randle, too.)

    15. Leaking that Randle could be available “for the right package” is a hilarious way to try to generate leverage out of thin air. At this point the other team is the party that would be looking for the right package of assets attached to Randle. I don’t think we’ll trade him because I don’t think there’s a single team out there that would so much as send out their expirings for him and Leon Rose, perhaps foolishly, would probably rather try to rehabilitate some of his value here.

      Something that wasn’t sufficiently emphasized in the other day’s debate about pursuing a first round slaughter (e.g. 4 games resembling last night’s, doesn’t that sound enticing?) vs beginning a rebuild is even getting the privilege of the former is a very remote possibility. Basketball reference gives us an 8.4% chance to make the playoffs.

      So if you’re anti-rebuild, it’s not because you’re in favor of making the playoffs. It’s because you’re in favor of trying and almost certainly failing to make the playoffs. There is absolutely no case for that whatsoever–we would not be tearing down a fringe playoff team. We would be tearing down a team on the fringes of being a fringe playoff team.

      It would be completely insane to not send out Burks, Fournier, Rose, etc. for whatever we could get at this point. I’m not including Randle because I don’t think anyone would trade for him, but him too on the off chance someone would. I have no idea how that situation will end, but it sure seems like it’ll be ugly.

    16. Hubert: I have seen enough flashes from Obi (including some impressive moves last night) to make me not want to trade him until he gets out of Thibs’ shadow.

      There is a coach out there isn’t as rigid as Thibs who will see that playing this guy at the 5 creates a shit ton of problems for opposing teams. (FWIW, that probably goes for Randle, too.)

      Yeah, I think last night forces Thibs’s hand with Obi. He’s gonna play more starting now. If Wally is even saying it, then it must be so ;-)

      And I respectfully disagree about trading E4. I know it’s an unpopular take here, but I just don’t think Fournier is our problem at all. He has a good attitude, often plays scrappy D (if not elite), and if you put him in the corner, he’s gonna hit every single three pointer off a good look. Now if you ask Fournier to “penetrate-and-drive-and-kick-and-spray-and-good-look-draw-double-teams” or whatever f-ck our offense is supposed to be (please be DRose from some previous decade), yes he’s gonna look washed. And if we think and stats show Fournier’s D is our biggest problem, then swap him with IQ. With the green light to shoot on the 2nd unit, I’m sure E4 would score a lot of points and be very happy not to have Julius scowling at him or throwing him jump passes for poor shot opportunities as the shot clock expires. Merci, beaucoup.

    17. I tend to agree, Hubert. But we gotta move off of Fournier. It’s not an albatross contract, but it has proven to be a bad signing. Like we didn’t do our due diligence before signing him bad. It’s like the FO was ok with signing him for the same reasons I was- career stats. I haven’t the resources to track Fournier like the FO does, so I resort to numbers. Granted, we did need an upgrade from Bullock offensively, but with Grimes’ emergence- that’s less of a need. Of course, we didn’t know that at the time. I can’t remember who was avaliable at the time, but I’m pretty sure the choice was spacing with Fournier or Derozan’s all around game but with less spacing. Hindsight is 20/20, but this team would have worked much better with Bullock, Burks, and Grimes than with Fournier. At least we’d be able to move Bullock around as we see fit without contract politics getting involved

    18. I don’t think Fournier is a problem, KBA. I just think there’s a logjam and we don’t need him. I’d rather give his minutes to Quickley, Grimes, Cam.

      And I keep looking at the Clippers as a Randle destination: Randle for Eric Bledsoe and Nic Batum? Batum is a good stretch 4 who could let us see what Toppin at the 5 looks like.

    19. Fournier got traded for a couple of 2nd round picks last year when he was in the midst of a career year and was on an expiring contract. Now he’s having a horrific year and has $40M guaranteed over the next couple years. I would happily dump him if it was possible but I think it’s going to be hard to find a team that values him at all.

    20. I stole a snippet from Macri (Sorry pal) because he shed light on something that may escape the eyes:

      “The Knicks have been outscored by an unsightly 2.4 points per 100 possessions when Julius Randle shares the floor with Fournier this season, but a truly horrendous 10.3 points per 100 possessions when Randle plays without Fournier. Like Walker, Fournier has been a main contributor to these stretches of heinous play, but his on/off numbers are less than half as bad as Randle’s over a sample size that is more than representative.”

      And he ended like this:

      “Julius Randle is not, in any way, shape, or form, capable of being part of a winning team at the moment. It is impossible. It is impossible because of his inefficiency, impossible because of his attitude, impossible because of his effort, and most of all, impossible because of his ego.
      Randle still thinks he’s the same guy who finished 8th in MVP voting last year. While the drop off in his level of play has obviously been incredibly damaging this season, it’s not nearly as damaging as the fragility of his psyche. Instead of looking inwards, he seeks others to blame. I’d wager anything that Randle blames his season-long struggles on the fact that he was asked to adjust his game to accommodate Fournier and especially Walker. Of course, he never wholeheartedly made an effort to adjust at all.”

      I wrote about Randle’s Sceptre Of Power and body language since the recap of game 3 (home loss to the Magic).
      At the time I still had faith in his “learning to share” (with Thibs’ help).

      I really wish I was wrong…

      Edit: I’d like to trade Fournier (and Burks) to solve the logjam at the 2-3 position (RJ, IQ, Grimes, Reddish…), but I think in the right team he can be a useful (bench) player.

    21. Our future is RJ, Obi, IQ and Grimes. Play them.

      And if I have to see one more offensive set where Randle sets a screen, gets a “mismatch” on the switch and we lob the ball to him so he can use up the rest of the shot clock pounding the ball into the court, I’m gonna puke.

    22. I’m pretty sure if we traded Obi before playing him 30 minutes a night we’d regret it. I’m just not seeing the extremely limited player people talk about, he pulls off some special moves almost every time he gets real minutes. I’m also a believer in him developing a 3PT shot and not just because of his recent hot streak–high FT% + high 3PA usually means a player will eventually get there.

      As others have pointed out I do give the Rose regime credit for assembling a stable of intriguing young players, which makes it all the more frustrating that they seem dedicated to marginalizing them by prioritizing the bad and boring veterans. It feels like something’s gotta give on this front. Adding high-end talent to the young group, via the draft or however else, is very obviously the optimal path forward.

      A rotation of IQ/Grimes/Barrett/Toppin/Mitch/Deuce/Reddish/Sims/Noel/G-League filler wouldn’t win many games going forward but god damn it I’d at least look forward to Knicks games again and then we’d add Rokas and a pretty good pick to that core.

    23. No, it’s not about aesthetics. It’s about building a good offense for the future. Even though we clearly don’t have the players to build a good offense around that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be have good plays and try to instill good habits in our players.

      My rebuttal to this would be that Thibs has gotten good results playing this same ugly basketball when he has had the talent to do so. He coached top-5 offenses in both Minnesota and Chicago that were bottom-5 in pace. It’s not my preferred style by any means either (that Butler Minnesota team in particular was one of the hardest to watch good offenses I can ever remember) but my honest assessment is that it gets results that are basically fine.

    24. Honestly, I would like to see a starting lineup of Mitch/Randle/Cam/RJ/Quickley. But we can’t put Fournier on the bench. Until Rose comes back, a 2nd unit of Noel/Obi/Fournier/Grimes/Burks would work..but..18 mil. Then when Rose comes back, you would replace Fournier with Rose and then not have a move to make with Fournier because we’ve moved him to the bench for a player he’s been historically better than. Fournier isn’t the problem because he’s not a good player- it’s because as Hubert stated- we now don’t need him with Cam, Burks, and Grimes in tow. I will, however, keep saying he’s moving like me at 5am in the winter LOL

    25. Yeah, Hubert. Sorry if I’m strident. I get that we don’t need E4, but I do think this appears as such b/c of how badly Thibs is using him. For example, out of a timeout, with the game on the line, I’d rather have E4 take the last shot off a curl than Randle, RJ, even IQ and Burks (this year). Grimes I like, but he’s still all “potential” to me. If the kid pans out, and we can get back value, sure. Au revoir E4.

      PS: I also believe E4 would readily accept coming off the bench as the sixth man with a green light. Honestly, I think he would LOVE IT.

    26. And I keep looking at the Clippers as a Randle destination: Randle for Eric Bledsoe and Nic Batum? Batum is a good stretch 4 who could let us see what Toppin at the 5 looks like.

      I asked a Clippers fan friend this morning about a Randle-Bledsoe swap, since the contracts match. He said, “That’s a terrible trade for you.” I said I just wanted Randle gone, and he replied, “Yes but like he will make your team worse. Worse than Randle.”

      Though Bledsoe expires next year, so if we are acquiring him just as a salary for offseason deals, with no plans on playing him real minutes? Sign me the hell up.

    27. Max:
      .”

      I wrote about Randle’s Sceptre Of Power and body language since the recap of game 3 (home loss to the Magic).
      At the time I still had faith in his “learning to share” (with Thibs’ help).

      I really wish I was wrong…

      While I agree that the Skiles Effect is not the cause of the malaise, I do think Randle’s Sceptre Of Power and attitude has infected those who play with him in a highly negative way. Watching Kemba ( who admittedly has not been the same physically since Thib’s overplayed his minutes) defer to Randle in bringing up the ball at a glacial pace is but one example. I believe the foul shooting is another.The conundrum is what to do. I doubt Rose will want to trade Randle for bubkis and Thibs and co. have not been able to change Randle’s downward trajectory. Absent Sacto ( equally abysmal season) giving some value ( Hield, Bagley III and a protected 1st), it seems the only course might be a coaching change to shake up things. Many people might think that Dolan will not be a factor in decisions, but reading Blood in the Garden reminds me that Dolan hates negative press and if we lose 16 of the next 19, the press will be savage and the goodwill developed last season will have evaporated. Seems Leon has no choice to get out front of this and sacrificing Thibs might be his best option.

    28. I would love to see Julius fighting PG and Kawhi for the ball.

      I honestly have no idea how you fit Randle in next to a superstar. I never have. He’s a ball dominant guy playing some of the worst ball of his life.

      He isn’t this bad but I’d happily part ways with him.

    29. For someone who loathes Fournier mostly, I have to admit that I think he does have a good attitude… I don’t think the boos get to him, I think he respects the game and an appropriate fan reaction… Relative to our “leader”, he’s a godsend in that regard… I do think he’s being horribly utilized but most of our team is being utilized terribly as well…

    30. I honestly have no idea how you fit Randle in next to a superstar. I never have. He’s a ball dominant guy playing some of the worst ball of his life.

      He had 1057 pretty good minutes alongside Anthony Davis! They had a +4.8 net rating. He did it by taking 56% of his shots at the rim and 15% from three, which he hit semi-competently (34%).

      The blueprint for him becoming useful, if obviously not all-NBA level, is right there. I just don’t think he ever wants to go back to it for some reason.

    31. Max: I’d wager anything that Randle blames his season-long struggles on the fact that he was asked to adjust his game to accommodate Fournier and especially Walker.

      Oh, there’s absolutely no question that’s how he frames it to himself.

    32. KB Apprentice: PS: I also believe E4 would readily accept coming off the bench as the sixth man with a green light. Honestly, I think he would LOVE IT.

      He never should have been contemplated as anything but that. Doing that well makes him worth or certainly at the very least close to worth his number.

    33. I’ve also never really ever seen anything like the columnists who write critical things about Randle and how his season is going also say that it could spell the end of his Knicks tenure, when that player has 4-plus years left on his contract. First Berman and then O’Connor. Leads me to believe there’s chatter behind the scenes.

    34. So Rose, Burks, Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and Talen Horton-Tucker works… Would ya’ll do that straight up? I feel like the Lakers would and would probably throw in a future first. You could include Mitchell Robinson too since as a pending UFA, he’s not as valuable to a team playing the long game like NYK would be, making him far more valuable to an aspiring contender like LAL.

    35. If the sources are right, firing Thibs will cost Dolan 21M to cover the next 3 full years until 2025 (not counting this one)… while he’ll be doing color commentator for ESPN.
      It’s a lot of money.

      At the same time Kenny Atkinson would be a good fit for a young team (he’s currently an assistant to Kerr at GS).

      Maybe for Rose the easiest solution until the end of the year is to disarm Thibs trading some veterans (as Cashman did with Torre and Scott Proctor years ago) and make the change in the offseason (before the draft please).

      I think this must be RJ’s team now, the young core is interesting, they’ll make mistakes and maybe will not win much, but we need to know what we got for the future.
      Play the kids!

    36. Alan, yeah Bledsoe is just salary filler. We could just cut him (for much less than it costs to cut Westbrook).

      If the Clippers think that is a steal, then maybe we can get Keon Johnson thrown in.

      I will let Ty Lue figure out how to make it work, but I trust Kawhi can Alpha Randle. Reggie-George-Kawhi-Morris-Randle would be a handful if integrated.

    37. If we fire Thibs, I would just promote Johnny Bryant, who has a great rep for player development, and isn’t from the Thibs/JVG coaching tree, and thus might have less archaic ideas about offense. Bringing in an outside guy midseason doesn’t make any sense, especially when Bryant and Kenny Payne are right here.

    38. So Rose, Burks, Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and Talen Horton-Tucker works… Would ya’ll do that straight up? I feel like the Lakers would and would probably throw in a future first. You could include Mitchell Robinson too since as a pending UFA, he’s not as valuable to a team playing the long game like NYK would be, making him far more valuable to an aspiring contender like LAL.

      I’ve proposed this before so yes I would do it. I think the Lakers would even include their 2027 first and maybe some swaps. It’s the only Randle trade I see as realistic given their desperation. I wouldn’t include Mitch because if we’re trading him we can probably get another first from someone else.

      The Lakers could also include Nunn to give us someone to soak up some minutes for the rest of the season.

    39. The other teams get open threes because Thibs, beyond all sense of understanding and reasons, thinks paint points are some kind of indication of quality defense, even though it’s 2022 and not 2002. It’s dumb af.

      Top 5 teams in the NBA at limiting points in the paint and league rank in defense:

      Miami Heat (7)
      Us (14)
      Boston Celtics (4)
      Golden State (1)
      Milwaukee (8)

      It’s good to stop the other team from getting easy baskets. If Nerlens had been able to play this season we’d probably have a top 10 defense. I’m sure there’s things you can criticize about Thibs defense, but the big problem with this team is the offense.

    40. Up until now I’ve been pretty agnostic towards Thibs. But clearly he is not the right coach for the situation we are in. But we are probably stuck with him. He had that good first year, won COTY, and is owed a bunch of money.

      I have been skeptical about Leon Rose from the beginning, and that skepticism seems to have been well-founded. It would be wonderful if he saw the situation we are in, and looked to move some of the veterans and pivot to a youth movement as much as possible. The odds of that actually happening though don’t seem great. Maybe he’ll surprise me. Probably not.

      So we’re stuck with these two guys for a while, and probably stuck in this purgatory of “contending” for a low playoff seed for a while. I’m at a familiar place where I’ve checked out on this regime and I’m just kinda patiently waiting for them to get canned.

      In other words, same old shit.

    41. This trade works under the cap.

      Knicks get: Ben Simmons, Tristan Thompson (expiring)
      Kings get: Randle, Tobias Harris
      Philly gets: Buddy Hield, Harrison Barnes, Derrick Rose

      I’m not crazy about Simmons, but I’d rather have him than Randle. The Kings get their frontcourt of the future without sacrificing Fox. And Philly gets 3 guys who could all theoretically start for them while going under the luxury tax line.

      Embiid, Barnes, Thybulle, Curry, Rose, with a bench of Maxey, Hield, Green, Korkmaz, Drummond, and Milton — that’s pretty good. They could win the East with that.

      The Kings get a good-on-paper lineup of Fox, Hali, Tobias, 2nd-team All-NBA forward Julius Randle, and Richaun Holmes. I could see those names appealing to Vivek.

      The Knicks get our PG of the future in Simmons, who will maximize Obi, RJ, and Quickley on the break and can guard the best offensive player on the other team. We’d start Mitch, Simmons, RJ, Fournier, and Grimes, with a bench of Kemba, Obi, IQ, Noel, and Burks.

    42. FWIW I would have no desire to fire Thibs if he and Leon get on the same page and pivot to the youth together. There are things we need to be doing for the long term health of this organization, and Thibs’ short-sightedness is getting in the way. If we can resolve that without firing him, that would be great, too.

    43. TheOakmanCometh:
      This trade works under the cap.

      Knicks get: Ben Simmons, Tristan Thompson (expiring)
      Kings get: Randle, Tobias Harris
      Philly gets: Buddy Hield, Harrison Barnes, Derrick Rose

      I’m not crazy about Simmons, but I’d rather have him than Randle. The Kings get their frontcourt of the future without sacrificing Fox. And Philly gets 3 guys who could all theoretically start for them while going under the luxury tax line.

      Embiid, Barnes, Thybulle, Curry, Rose, with a bench of Maxey, Hield, Green, Korkmaz, Drummond, and Milton — that’s pretty good. They could win the East with that.

      The Kings get a good-on-paper lineup of Fox, Hali, Tobias, 2nd-team All-NBA forward Julius Randle, and Richaun Holmes. I could see those names appealing to Vivek.

      The Knicks get our PG of the future in Simmons, who will maximize Obi, RJ, and Quickley on the break and can guard the best offensive player on the other team. We’d start Mitch, Simmons, RJ, Fournier, and Grimes, with a bench of Kemba, Obi, IQ, Noel, and Burks.

      This is the first Randle trade I’ve seen proposed here that I don’t hate. We actually get value in return. I think it’s good for the Kings too. I’m not sure Hield is enough for Philly to be happy but they do get off of Harris’s contract. It might be the best they can do if they want to move Harris.

    44. The most likely trade partner, IMO, is Sacto. I could probably rationalize the Foxes and the Hields and the Bagleys of the world if it ridded us of Randle. Obviously, somehow getting Simmons when the dust settles is the Holy Grail.

    45. I have to add that I wouldn’t do the trade unless Simmons was willing to get vaccinated. I’m not sure he is.

    46. I have been skeptical about Leon Rose from the beginning, and that skepticism seems to have been well-founded.

      We tend to have the same arguments every time we get a new coach, GM, or President:

      some of us make very fast assessments, and we are always opposed by contingent that says we should give more time before judging.

      Team Patience has a logical argument. But Team Thin Slice has never gotten an immediate assessment wrong!

      Knicks fans have acquired 10,000 hours (and then some) of witnessing failure. We know it when we see it, and it doesn’t take us long to recognize. The key is to look at the process, not the results.

      Granted, last year was a surprise, but it was a blip. We have settled into exactly what everyone thought the Rose/Thibs marriage would produce.

      The only guy who couldn’t be judged immediately was Scott Perry. To this day I still have no idea if he’s good or not.

    47. cant read behind paywall but “fournier critical of offense” is it juicy like the title suggests?

    48. I think Boston and Portland are also teams who would be interested. He’s be an upgrade at PF for both of them. They are both a little over the tax line and need to get under it and we could find a way to do that for them as part of the deal I can imagine they would be interested.

    49. TheOakmanCometh: This trade works under the cap.

      Knicks get: Ben Simmons, Tristan Thompson (expiring)
      Kings get: Randle, Tobias Harris
      Philly gets: Buddy Hield, Harrison Barnes, Derrick Rose

      There’s no way in hell Morey even considers that deal. Forget all star, those 3 aren’t even that good (except Rose, who’s a bit on the old side)

    50. Getting rid of Randle for expiring contracts would be addition by subtraction. I’m as forgiving of bad stretches as anyone. I’m always looking at injuries, layoffs, team construction, role, coaching etc… for reasons a player might be underperforming his typical productivity for awhile. I’m more than willing to overlook bad stretches that may have a valid excuse and look at a kind of adjusted long term expectation while others are overreacting to the “now”. I don’t think Randle is as bad as he’s playing now. I just see no reason to keep him anyway. He’s a low basketball IQ ball stopper that doesn’t seem to handle pressure situations very well. I’m looking for team first high basketball IQ ball movers that stay active on the court and give consistent high level effort on defense. Randle has a lot of skills, but IMO we aren’t going to build a winning team with him. It’s time to move on.

    51. KJG, if you mean the daily news article, for some readin it’s not behind a paywall for me.

      Evan Fournier offered a harsh assessment of the team’s strategy after getting blown out the doors in Miami.
      The shooting guard, who was part of a starting lineup that was pummeled in Wednesday night’s 110-96 defeat, said the Knicks never adjusted to the Heat’s defensive scheme of switching defenders onto the ball off screens.
      Although not a good reflection of the game planning, it was a refreshing account from Fournier compared to the cliched excuses of not having enough energy or heart.
      “It wasn’t about the physicality, to be honest. It was more about the organization,” Fournier said. “They switched with Bam (Adebayo), forcing us to get out of our rhythm. We did not play well offensively. We did not take advantage of the switch. It kind of took us away from ball movement.”

    52. And

      Fournier, who had just seven points in 20 minutes, blamed the lack of adjustments, although he wasn’t specific about whether it was the players or coaches falling short.
      “My point is we have to adapt to what other teams are doing,” Fournier said. “When we had that good stretch, we were playing a certain way. Because the guys in front of us were doing something similar every time. When we play a team that does things differently, we have to adjust. So if they take away what we do well, you have to do something else and be okay with that and create opportunities and etc, etc.
      “We have to adapt. That’s the main thing. Because we have the weapons, let’s be honest. We have guys who can score. It shouldn’t be a problem for us to score.”

    53. Randle for Horford works. Randle would submarine that team, too; Tatum and Brown don’t have the stature to corral him like Kawhi and PG do. Hopefully Boy Wonder doesn’t see it that way.

    54. There’s no way in hell Morey even considers that deal. Forget all star, those 3 aren’t even that good (except Rose, who’s a bit on the old side)

      You’re underrating Barnes. He’s been really good this year. Shoots 44% of his shots from 3 and hits at 41%. He’s got a positive WS/48 on this garbage Kings team. Would be a great fit next to Embiid.

    55. Fournier is almost definitely better than he has looked in NY. but he’s not the kind of player that can become a critical piece on a serious contender where you want to pay him what we are paying him on a long term contract. We should try to move on from him not for basketball reasons, but just for better medium term flexibility.

      We should probably move on from Burks also (get a pick?). I like Grimes long term and don’t think we’ll lose anything if we make him a major piece of the rotation and give some minutes to Cam too.

      Other than, these overreactions are silly.

      Every single person here knew we weren’t a major playoff team yet, that the east got better, and that Randle might revert to the mean. One step at a time.

    56. Fournier basically saying “hey coach maybe mix in some paper and some scissors cuz everybody know you gonna throw rock.”

    57. I think Fournier speaks the truth, but it’s not too easy to adjust when you don’t have a good quarterback running the offense and one of the lowest basketball IQ players in the NBA (who is also a ball stopper) often has the ball in his hands. We don’t have enough good playmaking and high IQ leadership on the court. You can’t adjust your way out of that. It will look better when Rose is back, but you have to get Randle out of here and obviously eventually replace Rose.

    58. If Rose makes a move at the deadline it’s going to be a band aid move to try to salvage this season.

    59. Other than, these overreactions are silly.

      In the same post you recommend trading Randle, Fournier, and Burks. That’s what everyone else is saying to do. What are you allegedly being so measured about?

    60. Hubert:
      Fournier basically saying “hey coach maybe mix in some paper and some scissors cuz everybody know you gonna throw rock.”

      It’s not the coach.

      We have no PG and a vey low basketball IQ player with the ball in his hands a lot of the time. IMO, you CANNOT adjust your way out of that situation. It’s a miracle we are still relatively close to .500 given the PG situation.

    61. Fournier basically saying “hey coach maybe mix in some paper and some scissors cuz everybody know you gonna throw rock.”

      Thibs: “There’s always some hot new thing like paper, scissors, Twitter, whatever. Rock has been around for 4 billion years. We have a rock, we’re going to use rock. Rock works.”

    62. Knick fan not in NJ:
      And

      thank you… hes being diplomatic… but obviously he has an opinion, that he shared publicly… Ive been saying im not a huge fan, but when he’s publicly sharing his thoughts on improving the outcome, i gotta think his attitude is in the right place and it makes me think twice… hes giving a specific idea / option rather than sugar coating and talking about the softer skills… i have to say i like it

    63. Firing Thibs this season would probably not be worth the disruption. I don’t think he’s gotten fewer wins out of this bunch than the average coach. Maybe Obi taking some more Randle minutes gives us 1-2 more wins, that’s about it. As long as you view playing Randle at all as being a requirement, and it would be for any coach, this team is incapable of doing anything interesting.

      Having said that, I do think we need to move on from him eventually. I actually don’t blame him for how stagnant our starters are because based on the way the bench plays I don’t think Thibs is stopping anyone from playing the right way. The starters are a slow, uncreative bunch and that’s their own fault. I just think his rotation patterns and minute distributions are so unusual and are easily a net negative. It shouldn’t be too hard to find a coach who doesn’t let things descend into a clown show and also doesn’t insist on playing Julius Randle 40 minutes all the god damn time.

      An objective fact that is going to make some people very mad because they once assured me it could never happen: the Minnesota Timberwolves, led by Karl Anthony-Towns, have a better record than a team coached by Tom Thibodeau.

    64. Vorkunov tweets that the 24 worst four-man lineups in the association are either (a) on one of the worst four teams in the association; or (b) a permutation of the Knicks current starting lineup.

    65. It’s pretty clear that Fournier really isn’t buying whatever it is Thibs is selling, and (rightly) thinks the double standard in favor of Randle is a joke.

    66. The problem with finding a Randle trade is any team trading for him has to believe he’ll be a lot better than he’s been this season, because this season he’s been actively detrimental to winning. The only teams that could talk themselves into that are teams with players Randle would have no choice but to defer to, such as LeBron James.

      This is why I don’t see the Kings, Blazers, Celtics, etc. having interest even if the optimized version of Randle could help them. How could they ever be sure they were going to get that guy?

    67. Firing Thibs this season would probably not be worth the disruption.

      You are right, as long as Thibs and Leon are on the same page.

      But if Leon trades Randle and Rose and Thibs responds by making Kemba, Burks, Fournier, and Taj his new top unit (and let’s be real: he might do that), then he is getting in the way.

    68. thenoblefacehumper: In the same post you recommend trading Randle, Fournier, and Burks. That’s what everyone else is saying to do. What are you allegedly being so measured about?

      I’m not in a mad rush of panic to change directions, change coaching, blame Leon Rose, blow it all up, tank, etc.. just because we are playing around how we should be playing given the east is way better, we have no PG, and Randle took the highly likely step back. My biggest regret now may be that I seriously considered betting the under and got shut out of the bet by hesitating for a day.

      The one thing I am certain of is that we need to trade Randle.

      Other than that, it’d be fine with staying with Burks and Fournier unless a deal that moves us forward shows up. The only reason I am even willing to contemplate that is that Grimes is good enough to take major minutes from one of those guys and you can throw Cam in the rest of those minutes and see what he’s got without losing much.

      I am willing to make moves that takes us a step forward short and long term or sideways short term and forward long term. I am NOT willing to take a step back short team. for more tanking fantasies.

    69. thenoblefacehumper: The blueprint for him becoming useful, if obviously not all-NBA level, is right there. I just don’t think he ever wants to go back to it for some reason.

      I doubt he’ll ever go back to it here.

      I suspect that for as long as Randle remains a Knick, he will think of this as his team. Ordinarily, I’m loath to psychoanalyze ballplayers from the vantage point of my den but Randle’s discomfiture is glaringly evident to pretty much anyone who watches a Knicks game these days. Of course, this could be due to any one of a number of factors, be it the pressure of his new contract, the return of fans to the arenas, his home life with a newborn, or some combination thereof. Personally, I tend to agree with those who have posited that Randle got a taste of life as King of NY last year and hates the thought of giving it up; resentful of the prospect of having to now share the crown with players he regards as far less worthy than himself and sometimes visibly sulking during their moments of success.

      No idea if that is the case but if that is, in fact, the leaguewide perception of the reasons behind Randle’s struggles, then the only teams that would want him are those with actual, established superstars at the top of the pecking order. There’s not a GM in the NBA who’d consider bringing him in to any situation in which Randle might fancy himself as the #1 or even the #2 option but I daresay there’s still a fair number of teams who could find good use for the above average role player that he was before his arrival in NY. I believe it’s still possible for him to excel in such a role, which would move his contract status out of the albatross neighborhood and into that of just the slightly overpaid.

    70. It’s not the coach. We have no PG and a vey low basketball IQ player with the ball in his hands a lot of the time. IMO, you CANNOT adjust your way out of that situation

      What about giving the ball to Kemba Walker and RJ Barrett instead? Too extreme?

    71. The problem with finding a Randle trade is any team trading for him has to believe he’ll be a lot better than he’s been this season, because this season he’s been actively detrimental to winning

      Every competent coach and management in the NBA knows Randle is a lot better than he’s showing in NY and would not be using him to run the offense. We are because we have no PG. The problem is that they can use this debacle of a season as leverage in a trade. It’s not like anyone is going to be clamoring for a ball stopper that’s showing attitude and pressure issues.

    72. If you don’t watch the Knicks every day, you don’t understand how detrimental Randle is. His counting stats are still pretty good (19-10-5). The only obviously ugly thing is his shooting.

      We have to convince any trade partner that:

      1) He’s going through a temporary shooting slump.
      2) He’s being forced to take a lot of late-clock contested jumpers because our offense is so bad.
      3) He’s slumping because the mean NY fans are booing him and the resulting feud is in his head. He just needs a fresh start somewhere else.
      4) He’s probably not a #1 option, but on your team he will be a #2 or at worst a #1A. He’ll be much better without that pressure!

      I don’t see the smart GMs falling for it, but there are still a few dumb teams out there, or GMs who know better but are desperate to keep their jobs by trading for a big name.

    73. Hubert: one adjustment that comes to mind is stop putting the ball in the hands of a very low IQ basketball player most of the time. We do have Kemba Walker, and his brain still works.

      Kemba is like the 35 year old boxer that is clearly way below his peak but that occasionally has a night where he feels great, has energy, moves better etc… and has one of his last good nights. I think we knew this was likely going to be the case coming into the season.

    74. as soon as you remove randle, the ball will stop much much much less… RJ will stop it from time to time but he will be going downhill alot more than randle… itll be a better brand of ball for us to consume…

    75. Kemba with all his current limitations is still a better option to QB the offense than Randle. He doesn’t have to be 27 year old Kemba to be an improvement.

    76. Deeefense!!: It’s not the coach.

      .It’s a miracle we are still relatively close to .500 given the PG situation.

      Part of this is we have had the eighth easiest SOS up until now.

    77. If we move Randle, Fournier and Kemba, things open up for us a lot.

      Rose/IQ/McBride
      RJ/Grimes
      Burks/Cam
      Obi/Taj
      Mitch/Noel/Sims

      This team would lose a lot but would be a fun team to watch led mostly by youngsters. They would play faster. If RJ can continue to improve his 3 point shooting (and Obi too), that could be a fun starting 5. You’d have Rose, Burks, Taj, Noel providing vet leadership and a steady dose of minutes. I dare say if Rose comes back healthy and playing to the level he was before, we might actually win some games?

      There would be cap space this summer to go after Brunson. A late lottery pick to add to the mix. Rose, Burks and Noel would then all be pretty enticing trade deadline pieces (expiring but with team options, good players).

      Would allow RJ to be the man too, which I think at this point is really important for us.

      I’ve defended Randle long enough. I think he is better than this but his attitude, for whatever reason, is now all wrong.

      We’d have a late lottery pick to add to the team and some cap space opened up from moving on from Randle, Fournier and Kemba. We could go after Brunson in the offseason

    78. There would be cap space this summer to go after Brunson. A late lottery pick to add to the mix. Rose, Burks and Noel would then all be pretty enticing trade deadline pieces (expiring but with team options, good players).

      This is assuming we somehow only got expiring contracts back, which I think is impossible for that amount of money unless every transaction was separate.

      This is why the Westbrook option is appealing. He’s not expiring but he’s close, and his contract allows us to get this done in one fell swoop. I’d waive him the first second we legally could but Dolan would probably want to see if he could be bought out.

    79. Dump Randle for my own sanity, I don’t care if we give up picks to do it. I can’t watch this team right now.

      Fournier & Kemba at least put up respectable (but still bad) offensive numbers. They might not look like trash if Randle leaves.

      The bench has no problem playing under Thibs. I don’t think Thibs is the problem.

    80. “Trade Julius Randle even in a pure dump” becoming one of the rare things to completely unite Knickerblogger is not something I saw coming 6 months ago.

    81.  I don’t believe he “Skiles Effected” the team. We went from chaos to order. He created a foundation for players to succeed, where before there was none

      That is the Skiles Effect. It’s when a hardass coach comes in and creates order in a chaotic team and gets everyone working together so that they improve based almost solely on everyone just playing harder and more cohesive than they did before.

      You can argue that the Knicks went even further based on Randle’s fluky shooting, but the Knicks were going to have a significant turnaround regardless under Thibs (just maybe not #4 seed).

    82. I don’t get how anyone sees even basic highlights of Dallas games and says, “Oh yeah, we’ll just add Brunson.” He’s not going anywhere unless, I guess, the Knicks clear out enough cap space to max him out.

    83. Brunson would have to find a team who could sign him outright and convince Dallas he’d rather go to that team than return. Then they’d be better off getting something for him in a sign-and-trade with us than letting him walk.

      It’s a stretch. There will be very few teams with the cap space to sign him outright and it’s far from clear that those teams would want Brunson on a 4/~$80M deal. Maybe he could work this out with Detroit?

    84. Knick fan not in NJ: “When we had that good stretch, we were playing a certain way. Because the guys in front of us were doing something similar every time. When we play a team that does things differently, we have to adjust. So if they take away what we do well, you have to do something else and be okay with that and create opportunities and etc, etc.

      For the players, Fournier expresses well what we’re seeing.
      For Thibs (for any failing leader): “Is my plan shit? or Must the guys work harder to follow my plan?”
      For Leon Rose: “Do we replace the plan? Replace the guys? Both?”
      For Knicks fans: “Plus ça change.”

    85. Brunson is UFA just like Mitch. All the Knicks need to do is create cap space and hope he wants to come here.

    86. You guys remember when Kevin Love handed the ball to the other team and walked off the court, apparently never to play for the Cavs again? That was, what, 40 games ago? Last night he was running around the Rocket Mortgage Field House, yucking it up, smiling, and playing like a 25 year old for the 3rd best team in the conference. It’s funny how fickle this league can be. Hang in there, team optimist.

    87. In one week, Wizards and Knicks will be out of the play-in and the Hawks will be firmly in the play-in. And this won’t change again this season.

    88. Kevin Love is also the 5th or 6th best player on the Cavs, so they can improve independently of him and transform the atmosphere into one he would succeed in. Randle is (ostensibly) our best player, so we’re not making a Cav-like leap unless he himself gets much better, or we win the lottery and draft the next Evan Mobley.

    89. I don’t want Westbrick, Horford (This is even worse. What if Randle gets back to playing well? For the Celtics? No way!), or some dump like that. I think there’s teams that might send us good assets because they’re in win now mode. Bulls want a PF, and are open to send Patrick Williams the other way. Wolves probably would be interested in a All NBA 2nd-team player.
      Leon must earn his pay check and “win trades”. I’d say for him to start with these 2 teams, but there’s probably more.

    90. In one week, Wizards and Knicks will be out of the play-in and the Hawks will be firmly in the play-in. And this won’t change again this season.

      Yep. We are now competing with the Wiz, Blazers, Pels, Spurs, Kings, and Pacers for lottery position. Come on, Billups! Come on, Pop! Come on, Vivek! You gotta upgrade your talent. The playoffs are still in reach!

    91. ***We could go after Brunson in the offseason***

      Over the many years I’ve been a part of this community, I think I’ve argued in opposition to the KB hive mind on roster-related (i.e. not the Beatles) issues only 4 times. Once when Jimmy Butler asked for a trade to the Knicks, once when I said the Knicks shouldn’t even pick up Frank Ntilikina’s 3rd year option, most recently the Damian Lillard discussion, and once when I said they should empty the Dolan Vault into Fred Vanvleet’s lap.

      VanVleet wasn’t the sexy “star” NY likes to lust over. His max was 4/$117mil. He stayed in Canada for 4/$85mil.

      It’s hard to see a big difference between Vanvleet of 2020 and Brunson of 2022. And the Knicks, of course, STILL need a point guard. So, ask yourselves: at what price would Fred Vanvleet currently be too expensive at if he was on the Knicks roster right now? Then clear that much for Brunson and give it to him.

    92. Isn’t Brunson a UFA?

      Yeah, but the Mavs have his Bird Rights so they can offer him anything up to the max. Other teams need either the cap space or a sign-and-trade.

      I don’t want Westbrick, Horford (This is even worse. What if Randle gets back to playing well? For the Celtics? No way!), or some dump like that.

      I genuinely believe we will lose the ability to trade Randle without sweetener attached if we don’t do it ASAP, and I have no problem taking the risk of losing out on what we could get if he recoups some value at some point. The risk of being stuck with him vastly outweighs the reward of potentially getting something for hime one day.

    93. Hmm… I thought the Skiles Effect was just yelling and screaming with no underlying principles or systems.

    94. Hmm… I thought the Skiles Effect was just yelling and screaming with no underlying principles or systems.

      No, Skiles clearly had a system that he brought with him everywhere, but it was driven mostly by intensity that had less of an effect the longer he stayed with a team, to the point where his last team sort of checked out on him midway though the season, so he just quit instead.

    95. I’m in favor of trading vets for picks and/or young players, but the only one that is mandatory is trading Randle. If he steps out of the way, we can properly assess what we have in RJ the leader, which is the most important thing for our future. And without Randle hogging the ball for 18 to 20 seconds (a little less if he doesn’t bring the ball up court), i’d bet good money we will play a much better brand of basketball. For step 1, this is all i demand until the trade deadline.

    96. And yeah, Randle is definitely a case study, he won Most Improved Player in 2021, and will “win” Most Regressed Player in 2022. This might be a first.

    97. cybersoze:
      I’m in favor of trading vets for picks and/or young players, but the only one that is mandatory is trading Randle. If he steps out of the way, we can properly assess what we have in RJ the leader, which is the most important thing for our future. And without Randle hogging the ball for 18 to 20 seconds (a little less if he doesn’t bring the ball up court), i’d bet good money we will play a much better brand of basketball. For step 1, this is all i demand until the trade deadline.

      Why won’t Thibs act like a coach and hold Randle to the same standard that he holds our other players to?

    98. It’s hard to see a big difference between Vanvleet of 2020 and Brunson of 2022. And the Knicks, of course, STILL need a point guard. So, ask yourselves: at what price would Fred Vanvleet currently be too expensive at if he was on the Knicks roster right now? Then clear that much for Brunson and give it to him.

      i was in favor of spewing for fvv and i think he’s better than brunson. there’s a big difference on defense where fvv is like an overcharged roomba and brunson is just okay. i would still pay 80/4 for brunson happily.

    99. thenoblefacehumper: I genuinely believe we will lose the ability to trade Randle without sweetener attached if we don’t do it ASAP, and I have no problem taking the risk of losing out on what we could get if he recoups some value at some point. The risk of being stuck with him vastly outweighs the reward of potentially getting something for hime one day.

      I agree there’s risks, Noble, but that is why Leon gets the big bucks, he must turn this situation into something good. And i think it’s still possible. You’re probably dismissing the lolKnicks narrative. A lot of teams will think they are getting last year’s Randle, because they think the problem is the Knicks and not Randle. And you just need one GM that thinks this way.

    100. Short of a trade, I (insanely) still think there’s a chance Thibs sits down with Julius and just changes the offense and the narrative for the better. We are in a crisis moment. Everyone feels it. If Thibs just owned blame and gave Julius an out, it would help, “I’ve been putting too much pressure on Julius as the primary ball handler. We’ve decided to use him differently now b/c of personnel, give him a better chance to be successful” or whatever. Coaches like Riley, Jackson, Pop, Chuck Daly, Kerr always seem/ed to have another gear they can switch to. Thibs needs to show that leadership. Like someone said above (about rock, paper, scissors), it can’t just be “Rock, rock, rock. Oh my god, why don’t my guys play rock better. They must not be putting in the work.” Pretty sure grown men will soon say, “Fuck you.”

    101. Knick fan not in NJ: So if they take away what we do well, you have to do something else and be okay with that and create opportunities and etc, etc.
      “We have to adapt. That’s the main thing. Because we have the weapons, let’s be honest. We have guys who can score. It shouldn’t be a problem for us to score.”

      There’s your answer. Fire Thibs and make Fournier the new head coach. Two birds with one stone.

    102. This isn’t germane to the Knicks (on which I agree with everyone–trade the vets and play the kids), but Nikola Jokic is currently putting up some mind-boggling numbers, improving in literally ever single category (TS%, TRB% where he’s spiked 5%, AST%, STL%, Blk%, and Usage) over his clear-cut MVP-winning last season. He’s putting up one of the top seasons of all time and it’s a joy to watch.

    103. On a positive note, Obi did look very good last night. Making one’s shots can sure change things, can’t it?

    104. ***And yeah, Randle is definitely a case study, he won Most Improved Player in 2021, and will “win” Most Regressed Player in 2022. This might be a first.***

      The closest comp is the year Matthew McConaughey won and Oscar and an Emmy, then followed it up with a full year of Lincoln Navigator commercials.

    105. He did not win the Emmy! I know this because I predicted it very boldly in my review of true detective season one, and instead some guy named Cranston won, I guess for playing a high school teacher? I’m still not entirely clear on what happened.

    106. Donnie Walsh: The closest comp is the year Matthew McConaughey won and Oscar and an Emmy, then followed it up with a full year of Lincoln Navigator commercials.

      LOL

    107. Alan: He did not win the Emmy! I know this because I predicted it very boldly in my review of true detective season one, and instead some guy named Cranston won, I guess for playing a high school teacher? I’m still not entirely clear on what happened.

      The Emmys failed. You had it right, Alan. ;)

    108. cybersoze:
      And yeah, Randle is definitely a case study, he won Most Improved Player in 2021, and will “win” Most Regressed Player in 2022. This might be a first.

      Let me put it this way, Bitcoin is only the 2nd biggest loss in market value this year.

    109. Alan:
      He did not win the Emmy! I know this because I predicted it very boldly in my review of true detective season one, and instead some guy named Cranston won, I guess for playing a high school teacher? I’m still not entirely clear on what happened.

      Pretty sure he was a car wash attendant

    110. cybersoze: The Emmys failed. You had it right, Alan. ;)

      Hahaha.

      If I squint, we’re all in the Writers Room breaking Knicks Season 2022 ;-)

      … (checks whiteboard) which means Julius is about to …

    111. I think you were spot on at the time, Alan, as it seemed like True Detective would go the “Limited Series” route like most anthologies have done (and I believe they even have to compete as limited series now) and if they had done so, he would have won Best Actor easily. They didn’t, so he lost to Cranston, which I think was likely at the time (especially since Woody Harrelson was also in the Best Actor category for True Detective).

    112. Dallas are going to have to pay Luka a shit ton of money I don’t know they want to give Brunson a big deal

    113. Dallas are going to have to pay Luka a shit ton of money I don’t know they want to give Brunson a big deal

      I don’t think $20 million a year is a big deal anymore. Plus, they’re going to be capped out next year when Luka’s extension kicks in, so they wouldn’t be able to replace Brunson if they lost him.

      With that in mind, yes, if the Knicks maxed Brunson out, I think they’d have a chance. They’d have to get that cap room to do so, but if they got it, I think they could steal him by maxing him out. Whether that’s a good idea or not is a different question.

    114. Kevin Love is also the 5th or 6th best player on the Cavs, so they can improve independently of him and transform the atmosphere into one he would succeed in. Randle is (ostensibly) our best player, so we’re not making a Cav-like leap unless he himself gets much better, or we win the lottery and draft the next Evan Mobley.

      BPM says he is the best. VORP, that takes into account the minutes, says he comes after Jarrett Allen. I am pretty sure that having Ricky Rubio first, and Rajon Rondo after, help how to figure out the offense so everybody is happy. Maybe the 2013 version of Jason Kidd is enough to turn around this team.

    115. ***Dallas are going to have to pay Luka a shit ton of money I don’t know they want to give Brunson a big deal***

      Well, Emmy for True Detective or not, he won his Oscar for buying shit in Dallas. Cuban can join his club.

    116. Went to the game last night with my brother, best moments was having J.Cole walk by us and seeing Marc Berman.

      In all seriousness we had awesome seats and despite the ass whooping had a great time, building was packed with Knicks fans which lead to a pretty fun atmosphere. Craziest highlight was Sims’ alley oop, that was insane to see in person.

    117. ESPN’s Brian Windhorst reported Thursday that New York is looking to deal its more experienced players to make room for its younger stars.

      “In conversations this week with teams, the Knicks have expressed a willingness to trade some of their veteran players,” Windhorst said on NBA Today. “That includes Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, Alec Burks, guys like this.”

      Both Walker and Fournier were added to the team this past offseason, so it’s a surprise that the Knicks are looking to get rid of them so quickly. Fournier was acquired via sign-and-trade with the Boston Celtics on a four-year, $73 million contract. Walker, a native New Yorker, signed a two-year deal worth $17.9 million.

      https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10025155-knicks-trade-rumors-ny-open-to-dealing-kemba-walker-evan-fournier-alec-burks

    118. I think people are overestimating Randle’s lack of trade value. Many GMs in the NBA are not terribly smart or have enough hubris to think they can “fix” a struggling player, and look at someone like Randle and see an opportunity to buy low on an all-NBA 2nd teamer in his prime.

      We not only should be able to move him for assets my guess is it will be good assets.

      The most logical trade I see is with the Kings. They have expressed interest in Randle and are shopping for a PF. We could do a trade like Randle + Fournier + Noel + the Dallas pick + a couple of 2nds for Fox + Bagley and I think that gets it done.

      Then just cut Gibson and cut/trade Kemba and all of a sudden our team starts looking a lot better:

      Fox – Rose
      Barrett – IQ
      Grimes – Burks
      Toppin – Reddish
      Robinson – Bagley/Sims

      Or also move Burks and Rose and march out:

      Fox – McBride
      Barrett – Quickley
      Grimes – Reddish
      Obi – Bagley/Samanic
      Robinson – Sims

    119. @Brian Do you know what Brunson’s max would be?

      Almost $30 million ($29.75 million). The four-year max they could offer would be 4-years/$127,925,000.

      With that in mind, I guess they wouldn’t have to literally max max him out, as I bet they could get him for “just” 4-years/$100 million.

    120. KevinR:
      ESPN’s Brian Windhorst reported Thursday that New York is looking to deal its more experienced players to make room for its younger stars.

      “In conversations this week with teams, the Knicks have expressed a willingness to trade some of their veteran players,” Windhorst said on NBA Today. “That includes Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, Alec Burks, guys like this.”

      Both Walker and Fournier were added to the team this past offseason, so it’s a surprise that the Knicks are looking to get rid of them so quickly. Fournier was acquired via sign-and-trade with the Boston Celtics on a four-year, $73 million contract. Walker, a native New Yorker, signed a two-year deal worth $17.9 million.

      https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10025155-knicks-trade-rumors-ny-open-to-dealing-kemba-walker-evan-fournier-alec-burks

      So, is Randle one of the “younger stars” the Knicks want to keep or one of the “guys like this” that they want to trade? If the former, oh boy.

    121. Yeah I will just hope the make room for part means for guys like Obi and Cam even though they are far from stars. Julius has plenty of room already.

    122. Brian Cronin: With that in mind, I guess they wouldn’t have to literally max max him out, as I bet they could get him for “just” 4-years/$100 million.

      This is exactly what i had in mind, Brian. Jinx. I even started early my Knicks Offseason 2022 spreadsheet. LOL
      Arcidiacono and Taj don’t have money guaranteed for next season, so keeping Mitch’s tiny cap hold we have 13 players. If we buyout Kemba for 4M guaranteed in 2022-23 and we trade Randle (only him) for 9.5M that goes into next season and the rest is expiring money (~8M), we can offer Brunson that contract. Sounds good to me.
      Team:
      Brunson + Fournier + RJ + Obi + Mitch
      DRose + Quick + Burks + Reddish + Noel
      (plus Grimes, Deuce, 9.5M player, 2022 1RP)

    123. Hubert:
      My (hopefully) reasonable assessment on Thibs (Z-Man will be the judge)

      – I don’t believe he “Skiles Effected” the team. We went from chaos to order. He created a foundation for players to succeed, where before there was none.

      – One of those players (Randle) just happened to work his ass off in the offseason and put in a career year to get paid, leading us to unsustainable overachievement.

      Agreed, even with the misinterpretation of the Skiles effect
      – We were exposed in the playoffs, and Thibs was especially exposed because he had no Plan B.
      Agree that we were exposed, but disagree on the Thibns part. No plan B would have made much, if any difference. ATL was simply much better than us, esp. with that version of Randle.
      – Thibs did not build enough equity last year to survive a collapse this year. (If we can ship Randle out after last year, we can fire Thibs, too.)
      Neutral on this, last year was pretty awesome so he has more leash with me, esp. with Rose out
      – He is rigidity is causing problems this year that have led the organization to regress from the point that he helped get us to.
      Again, neutral, he is a rigid mfer but this is prob overstated.
      – He is exhibiting no signs of being able to right the ship.
      True, but it’s as much of a Julius issue as anything else and the roster is just not a winning roster.
      – This organization should move away from the vets and pivot to the draft picks, and Thibs is not the best coach for that approach.
      Agree wholeheartedly, always wanted that. I was against the Thibs hire, wrong guy for the roster he inherited but still a very good coach. Bottom line is that Julius is playing to the worst possible outcome, Kemba is cooked, Rose is a huge loss, both IQ and RJ haven’t taken the leap, and everyone else is a flawed role player. Meanwhile other teams have either gotten healthy (e.g. CHA) or improved (e.g. CLE). We’re probably about where we should be given the Rose injury and Julius’s regression. Everything else is pretty predictable and coaching is a smallish part of it.

    124. Kemba and Burks are so much more tradeable than Randle so I wouldn’t read a lot into that Windhorst report. Outside of a GM doing something really stupid (always possible) you’re pretty much only going to be able to trade Randle for an unproductive older player making a ton of money.

    125. That Windhorst report is good to hear even if it’s a bit vague. I don’t think Windhorst is much of a bullshitter so it sounds like our front office, or at least some people within it, know that things need to change.

      It would be kind of funny if we traded a bunch of guys but kept Randle. He’d have to play with a bunch of U23 guys and I imagine he’d be none too pleased. Still, hope he’s included in the “guys like this” category.

    126. ***Many GMs in the NBA think they can “fix” a struggling player, and look at someone like Randle and see an opportunity to buy low on an all-NBA 2nd teamer in his prime. The most logical trade I see is with the Kings.***

      The alluring thing for Sacramento is Randles propensity for making shitty franchises relevant.

    127. DRed:
      holy shit someone check on Jowles, Wiggins is an all star starter

      Lol I just saw he was selected. Apparently there’s some KPop star who’s a big fan Wiggins and his fans spammed the vote. Wiggins is definitely going to be the last guy picked.

    128. I love the Wiggins selection as a starter just so we can finally stop ever seeing all star selections as anything remotely meaningful. Finally we just have a succinct back breaking argument against anyone doing so.

    129. ***we can finally stop ever seeing all star selections as anything remotely meaningful. Finally we just have a succinct back breaking argument against anyone doing so.***

      Zaza Pachulia getting more votes than Anthony Davis because all of Azerbaijan stood in line to vote for him wasn’t enough?

    130. There was the Begly report yesterday that said they would listen to offers for Randle at least. Still even if we keep him and get some picks/assets out of Burks, Kemba, Fournier thats a solid win in my book.

    131. Also at the end of his podcast today with Bobby Marks, Zach Lowe said he hears that “the vultures are circling quickley,” That he expects us to resist, but the vultures will continue.

    132. No, Donnie, it means that New York Magazine’s website is looking to hire him to recap episodes of Euphoria.

    133. All of you slavering your trade Randle for anything should remember that several months ago almost everybody here was happy we extended Randle’s contract for less than the max. Things could change in another few months and he could look good again (although he still might not be fun to watch). I am not against trading him, but I’m not for it if we don’t get real assets in return.

      The Windhorst report suggests Knicks management wants go with youth. That makes sense if we aren’t competitive this season and so far, we are not. That doesn’t mean they will make a lousy deal for the sake of continuing to be lousy, but with younger players on the floor. I’m hoping they get value back with whatever they do.

    134. DRed:
      holy shit someone check on Jowles, Wiggins is an all star starter

      I am, as the kids say, deceased

    135. Here lies Jowles. He died doing what he loved: railing against hoops conventional wisdom while rooting for a fundamentally broken basketball team.

    136. Alan: while rooting for a fundamentally broken basketball team

      I think that ship has sailed. I don’t give a fuck about Jimmy D’s precious, dysfunctional cash cow.

    137. Knick fan not in NJ: should remember that several months ago almost everybody here was happy we extended Randle’s contract for less than the max. Things could change in another few months

      I just want to note that this has been fucking whiplash. Twelve months ago we were trying to figure out if we didn’t actually suck, in the middle of a season experts agreed we’d be actually lucky to win 23 games, and we were nervously wondering if we could maybe win in the low 30s and we inexplicably took off and ended up winning 41 with a .569 record. Then we went out and locked up our amazing all-star and got some complementary players and interesting rookies and we started out like gangbusters and then all the pieces fell apart and our amazing all-star quite literally lost his mind and we sank like a stone and here we are.

      I’m exhausted just writing that up.

    138. Things could change in another few months and he could look good again

      Or he could keep sucking and we could lose the ability to trade him at all. Do you have any reason to believe the optimistic scenario is more likely than this? Because I think unless he stops having the most hideous shot chart in the NBA, not much will change.

    139. We are practically back to where we were two summers ago, arguing whether we should have to attach a sweetener to get rid of Randle or not — who became an all-star in the meantime — it’s so crazy.

    140. thenoblefacehumper: Or he could keep sucking and we could lose the ability to trade him at all. Do you have any reason to believe the optimistic scenario is more likely than this? Because I think unless he stops having the most hideous shot chart in the NBA, not much will change.

      I don’t have any reason to believe that he will get even worse or that he will get better. I do think that if he got some sort of break where he could peacefully work on his shot, he could redevelop confidence and shoot better. I don’t know if that will happen.

      One thing that works in the Knicks favor is that no one expects them to be good. I think some people in the industry will consider his lousy performance is the result of Knicksiness, not intrinsic to him. I also think that if Perry could get actual useful players for Melo when he had a no trade clause, he can probably get something useful for Randle too, even if he has to wait until the trade deadline to do it.

    141. I feel so bad that I’ve been out of the loop this season. Last year, I got to watch a bunch of games, but this year my job just really has me drained. Plus by time i’m done most days (evening to late evening), the games are over. I’ve had to rely solely on highlights and mostly you guys’ commentary.

      Apparently, as a member of Team Optimist who predicted the K’s would win 50, I’m taking a huge L right now. I won’t shy away from it – I bought into the hype and thought Randle would closely replicate last year. Also thought RJ Barrett would be in the midst of his next leap, but that chapter isn’t done being penned this season.

      That said, the fact that there’s some smoke about the team pivoting from the current construction of the roster is good news for me. I know some here are holding onto their pessimist cards when it comes to management, but this regime has shown me enough for me to believe that they won’t stand pat with a product that isn’t working out as planned.

    142. Macri’s newsletter today speculates on 5 potential starting lineup changes, while also acknowledging that Thibs may be just stubborn enough to leave things as is. In order of likelihood, he puts them as:

      1. Burks for Fournier
      2. Burks for Kemba
      3. Quickley for Kemba
      4. Grimes for Fournier
      5. Deuce for Kemba (noting that Deuce’s two starts came when Randle was out)

      I have zero interest in the first two, especially while Burks is playing like trash. 4 would allow Fournier to bomb away as a sixth man, which as we’ve discussed might be a great role for him. But the point guard swaps are the most exciting for me, if only because PG remains our forever problem.

    143. He’s been certainly very hit and miss,
      but does Fournier’s last comments, his defense on Kemba after the Siberian Exile and his (reported) locker room questioning of Thibs’ fake meritocracy earned him a ticket out of town just as Rivers last year?

    144. Sorry Z-Man but when you read/watch/hear Windhorst, Lowe, Bagley, Macri suddenly making (in a 24-hour span) his name as the main trade option, I think it’s a legitimate question.

    145. That wasn’t directed at you, Max, or anyone specifically. It’s more about the depressing state of affairs and our collective reactions to it.

    146. I’m disappointed because I had hopes about this team,
      at the same think I think we’re in a better situation that in years past.

      The FO looks at least “average” and probably ready to change course quicker than previous ones and it’s been a while since we have so many young guys to develop.
      Heck, we can employ a starting five (with some bench help) of 24-and-under right now!
      That’s definitively not Knicksy and it’s a ray of hope for the future.

    147. All of you slavering your trade Randle for anything should remember that several months ago almost everybody here was happy we extended Randle’s contract for less than the max.

      I was on record saying we should trade him before the extension so we could cash in on his season. I even identified a target (Portland) that could have been desperate to make a move to appease Lillard.

      He’s now worth 5% of what he was worth then. But more importantly he is getting in our younger players’ way. Get rid of him while you can. Waiting isn’t worth the risk.

    148. Randle seems to have checked out. He’s not turning it around in a Knicks uniform. Not anytime soon.

      Kevin Love situation isn’t comparable because Randle has never been as good as peak Love, and his best season was always likely to be a fluke.

    Comments are closed.