Knicks Morning News (2021.09.23)

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    [www.sportscasting.com] — Wednesday, September 22, 2021 6:04:41 PM

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  • The 2022 Knicks’ Bench Mob – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Wednesday, September 22, 2021 3:05:07 PM

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  • 2021 NBA team Media Day livestream schedule – NBA.com
    [www.nba.com] — Wednesday, September 22, 2021 12:52:00 PM

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  • Celtics Rumors: Former Knicks, Nets SG Theo Pinson Invited to Training Camp – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Wednesday, September 22, 2021 12:24:59 PM

    Celtics Rumors: Former Knicks, Nets SG Theo Pinson Invited to Training Camp  Bleacher Report

  • New York Knicks: Will we see a more creative offense? – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:00:00 AM

    New York Knicks: Will we see a more creative offense?  Daily Knicks

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    47 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.09.23)”

    1. Yeah, I think I’d take Zion if he wanted to come.

      If Zion becomes available, you grab him and figure it out later.

    2. The problem with trading for Zion at some point in the future is that you are going to have to give up a ton to get him. In NY’s case, part of the sales pitch is probably going to be to put RJ and Zion back together. They are friends and it’s NY. I’m sure he’d love to be here. We still have all our own 1st rounders and a couple of excess ones (including the incinerated one lol), but it’s going to take young talent and picks.

    3. The question isn’t aboout whether one likes or doesn’t like Zion, or whether we should grab him if he becomes available. The question is what is it worth giving up to get him, and will he be worth the supermax deal he will absolutely get in a couple of years. Seems like there are some here that would trade Julius, RJ and 4 unprotected first rounders for him. Not me, for the reasons I stated in the last thread.

    4. Zion wants to come play with RJ, so that’s the one player off the list. But there’s no need to start debating what would we trade, because it ain’t happening until the 2023 offseason. Is there a future franchise player that have been traded on his rookie contract? I can’t remember anyone. Please, don’t give me Porzingis as one example, he’s (very) far from a franchise player.

    5. cybersoze
      September 23, 2021 at 10:58 am

      Is there a future franchise player that have been traded on his rookie contract? I can’t remember anyone.

      *

      Chris Webber.

      Oh, and James Harden.

    6. And, I guess, Jarret Allen too. (I don’t know if Allen and Ingram are deserving of their “franchise player” tags, but their respective franchises have invested enough $ in them to make them franchise players.)

      Point is: it’s uncommon, but it’s not unprecedented for stars to be traded very early i their careers. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. Sometime teams are just dumb. (In the event of an imminent Zion trade, I think it would likely be a combination of both those reasons:)

    7. Andrew Wiggins is reportedly refusing to get vaccinated, which means he would not be allowed to play in any Golden State home games (San Francisco, like New York, has new local ordnances barring unvaccinated players from even entering the arena), and thus would forfeit all home game checks.

    8. Alan:
      Andrew Wiggins is reportedly refusing to get vaccinated, which means he would not be allowed to play in any Golden State home games (San Francisco, like New York, has new local ordnances barring unvaccinated players from even entering the arena), and thus would forfeit all home game checks.

      If he’s the only one I’d be surprised. The way the NBA had been handling the issue it sounds like way more powerful players than Wiggins don’t want to get vaccinated (or at least didn’t).

    9. About Zion’s defense… I am of the firm belief that if you are a plus athlete and you have good measurables, you can be coached up to play good defense. Zion has immense strength and is also very quick for a man his size. The culture of that Pelicans team is obviously garbage, and that’s probably why he is not playing great defense at this stage of his career.

      Julius Randle and RJ Barrett were thought to be nothing special as defensive players, but they’re both strong and athletic guys, and they’re both perfectly fine defensive players under Thibs’ coaching.

    10. I think everyone needs to prepare to be jilted in the Zion trade sweepstakes. The team poised to grab him if/when he hits the market is Atlanta.

      Atlanta has the advantage of all its picks *and* attractive young players to spare (because, well, they actually use their draft picks on good players instead of trading them for a fraction of their value).

      For example, they could easily offer some combination John Collins, Kevin Huerter, Onyeka Okongwu, Cam Reddish, Jalen Johnson, and multiple first round draft picks. The Knicks have nothing close to that.

      Ironically, and to the surprise of no one in Camp Incinerate, if Zion were on the market, Jalen Johnson would most likely be a much more attractive piece than the heavily protected Charlotte pick.

      I’m putting my flag down in the ground on this one. Zion gets traded to Atlanta, if he gets traded at all.

    11. I think everyone needs to prepare to be jilted in the Zion trade sweepstakes.

      I agree the Knicks can probably never offer the best package but that’s not always (or even often) how these things get decided. If Zion wants NY (and obviously that’s total speculation at this point) and is willing to seriously threaten to take his qualifying offer he can exert a fair amount of control.

    12. He’d have to want NY more than anyone ever did, because he’d be risking a ton of money by taking the QO and passing on a great team in Atlanta if he refused to join the Hawks. Even if they gave up every player I mentioned (and they likely wouldn’t have to) they’d still have a starting lineup of Young, Bogdan, Hunter, Zion, and Capela; with Gallo as 6th man. That’s a damn good team. And Atlanta is a great city for a young athlete, too. It’s not Minnesota.

    13. I feel you Hubert, we’re not going to beat Atlanta in an asset contest. It’d have to be one of those things where the player really wants to force himself to a certain market. Which does happen sometimes!

    14. ***Franchise player? Harden is, but it wasn’t obvious at the time. The others are not.***

      Wait, Webber, Brand, Johnson, and Lowry, with their combined 20 all star appearances and countless max-contract years between them, don’t qualify for the “franchise player” title on their respective teams?

    15. Randle is second team all NBA and just signed a super reasonable 4 year deal. If he is included in a trade for Zion, that is a very good piece to get back in return. He’s only 26. Maybe he doesn’t have the peak superstar potential Zion does but he can be the best player on a playoff team as we saw last year. Throw in a few picks and another young player and its certainly not a bad package.

    16. Mavs and Haralabos Voulgaris part ways.

      That was an easy one to see coming. More good news for the Mavs.

    17. Donnie Walsh:
      ***Franchise player? Harden is, but it wasn’t obvious at the time. The others are not.***
      Wait, Webber, Brand, Johnson, and Lowry, with their combined 20 all star appearances and countless max-contract years between them, don’t qualify for the “franchise player” title on their respective teams?

      I think they do. Maybe i used the wrong word, Zion is a rare breed, is a generational talent. Better like this? Any generational talent that you guys know was traded on his rookie contract?

    18. He’d have to want NY more than anyone ever did, because he’d be risking a ton of money

      Would he really? I’m honestly not sure. If 31 year-old KD has his choice of landing spots on his (higher) max even with a very serious injury on basically the last possible date before his free agency it’s a little hard for me to imagine what kind of injury would represent a real threat to Zion getting paid for his prime years. He’d obviously be making less on the qualifier offer year (although I think his QO is set to be like 17 or 18M, not chump change) but I’m not sure the risk of his not getting paid in free agency would really be very significant.

    19. Raven: Cyber, don’t know if you brought it up previously, but Julius scored 42nd on the ESPN rankings. I suspect he got dinged because he wasn’t even ranked last year, and fears of last year being a fluke, which is a reasonable concern. But if it’s not a fluke, there are a number of players currently ahead of him that he really should leapfrog.
      https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32244615/nbarank-2021-ranking-best-players-2021-22-50-26

      Yeah, 42nd is lower than i expected, probably for the reasons you stated. I don’t think he’ll pull a Oladipo impression, but who knows, right? From my pov i think all signs point to a guy that improved every season, with the “Fiz fiasco” exception, and so i think he reached a new level and is not going to regress, but let’s wait for this season to check it out.

    20. I realized now that this is ESPN’s Top100, and Julius is 42nd. The one i’ve already talked about was SI’s Top100, where he is 41st. It’s almost the same place, so for the experts he’s borderline Top40. Not bad, but please prove them wrong again, Julius! :D

    21. I think they do. Maybe i used the wrong word, Zion is a rare breed, is a generational talent. Better like this? Any generational talent that you guys know was traded on his rookie contract?

      I think it’s hard not to consider Webber a generational talent, as well. The others, sure.

    22. Haralabob is finally out in Dallas. It doesn’t matter if you’re right if nobody wants to listen to you

    23. DRed: It doesn’t matter if you’re right if nobody wants to listen to you

      Definitely one of the options for my tombstone.

    24. Yeah, it was 27 years ago, but I think Webber is pretty much the comp you’re looking for. He was a much heralded #1 pick who had a very strong rookie year in GS as a 20 year old on his way to winning rookie of the year. Then he was traded for Tom Gugliotta and 3 first round draft picks when he was 21.

      I couldn’t remember the circumstances surrounding that trade, so I looked it up. This was before “rookie deals”, and, apparently, Webber signed a 15-year $74,000,000 deal upon getting drafted. The deal had an early termination clause after 1 year, which Webber executed because he was unhappy playing center rather than PF, was upset that Billy Owens had been traded, and had a general dislike for Don Nelson. He tried to negotiate a new contract with another ETO, and refused to come to camp until he got his way. Golden State agreed to trade him, but he demanded to be traded to his hometown pistons. I guess Detroit didn’t want him, so he agreed to be dealt to Washington, where his buddy Juwan was also holding out for a better contract.

      So, that’s basically the historical template for a speedy Zion trade. I guess we’ll see…

    25. Yeah, i think i agree. It was hard to consider anyone a generational talent at the time because the comparison was peak MJ. Now i looked it up and Chris was born in 1973 so yeah, then he was indeed a generational talent because 1973 was the best year ever to be born. LOL

      Webber signed a 15-year $74,000,000 deal upon getting drafted

      15 year deal? That is kind of insane, right?

    26. The rookie scale didn’t exist when Chris Webber was drafted in 1993. His rookie contract was a 15 year deal with an opt out after year 1. I don’t think it’s comparable.

      Harden is a pretty rare case, too, where a team had three generational talents but only wanted to pay 2.

      I don’t think Cyber is phrasing his point well, but I think he’s right. If Zion forces his way out of new orleans before signing a second contract, this would be unprecedented in the era of team control over their draftees. The closest comp is Porzingis, hardly a player of Zion’s caliber.

      (Brand was traded bc the Bulls thought Chandler was better. Lowry was traded bc he didn’t shown his value early on. Neither guy forced his way out, their teams were impatient.)

    27. “Generational talent” is one of those kind of sports new-agey words that doesn’t really have a definition beyond intuition, so I won’t bother wading into the definition.

      That said, I was a young season ticket holder with some buddies with the team that traded for C-Webb. The parallels between C-Webb for Googs and 3 1s, and Zion for Julius and 3 1s, are positively eerie. Zion’s upside is higher than C-Webb’s and C-Webb’s was sky-high.

      You do Julius and 3 1s for Zion in a nanosecond. It’s a generational no-brainer.

    28. DRed:
      Haralabob is finally out in Dallas.It doesn’t matter if you’re right if nobody wants to listen to you

      I love that quote, but in his case I think Dallas made the right move.

      Besides, I suspect some of his reputation as a gambler is exaggerated self promotion. I’ve heard rumors. Either way, there are some differences between finding inefficiencies in gambling markets and evaluating players, fitting them together well, and designing offensive and defensive strategies.

    29. The 1994 equivalent of Twitter for the obsessed was basically staying up all night listening to sports talk radio in the hope of updates, which is exactly what I did lol.

      I’m pretty sure the Webber trade and Juwan’s rookie contract signing were announced on the same day. I checked the Bloomberg machine for updates in the work and really didn’t care if the bosses cared. Juwan got shafted on his rookie deal because the Bullets kept saying they only had so much room under the salary cap — no rookie scale — and that’s all they were going to give him. He eventually signed it, got himself a two year out in return, and proceeded to hold a massive grudge for two years. He played balls out during those two years (think of Washington in Fast Times at Ridgemont High after he thought that other school wrecked his car), and got massively paid in free agency. Once the grudge wore off and he’d proven his point and gotten paid, he was never again anywhere close to as good as he was in those two years.

      As Donnie said, C-Webb basically told Nellie to go scratch, and Nellie was out in G-State before the first non-CWebb season was over. The next year he was hired as the head coach for your New York Knickerbockers. (Only to then again piss off his team’s superstar within a year, whereupon he was sent packing. Must have been the years before Nellie started smoking ganja or something.)

    30. mcgrady was somewhat similar to webber in that he had all the power, but he techincally forced a deal to the magic after year 3. mcgrady was only the 9th pick and still a bit raw, but he was already considered a monster prospect by then and pat riley gave him the coming to america rose petal treatment and offered him a massive deal to take a miami sign and trade instead. jason kidd was also traded during his year 3 to phoenix. so was nash after yr 2 with the teams reversed, but nash wasn’t quite nash yet.

    31. There is no better example of homer fan stupidity than the about-face that Dubs fans are doing on Wiggins today. He sucked a week ago, but you’d have been banned for saying so on r/warriors. Now? “He was never that good… and that’s been our position the whole time.”

    32. I forgot the rule, can road non-vaxxed players play in NYC (and less importantly, SF) games? That could actually be somewhat of a big deal.

    33. These laws apply only to players on the Knicks, Nets and Warriors and not to members of visiting teams coming to play those clubs. The reason for that is the laws in both New York City and San Francisco have exemptions for out-of-town teams coming to those cities to play games. Those exemptions, however, do not exist for the home teams in those cities.

    34. I would add to what Hubert says that he needs a negative test right before playing in NY.

    35. Hubert: These laws apply only to players on the Knicks, Nets and Warriors and not to members of visiting teams coming to play those clubs. The reason for that is the laws in both New York City and San Francisco have exemptions for out-of-town teams coming to those cities to play games. Those exemptions, however, do not exist for the home teams in those cities.

      And, supposedly, Kyrie isn’t vaccinated: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/unvaccinated-nba-players-could-be-sidelined-in-some-markets-in-2021-22-season

    36. vincoug: And, supposedly, Kyrie isn’t vaccinate

      Of course Mr. Flat Earth isn’t vaccinated. Are all the Knicks are vaccinated? As talented as he is, I am so glad he’s not a Knick. I’m curious if there’s others on the Nets, and whom.

    37. Hubert: I don’t think Cyber is phrasing his point well, but I think he’s right. If Zion forces his way out of new orleans before signing a second contract, this would be unprecedented in the era of team control over their draftees. The closest comp is Porzingis, hardly a player of Zion’s caliber.

      To clarify, i think it’d be unprecedented for a team to trade a player like Zion on his rookie contract. If KP was at Zion’s level, we wouldn’t have traded him and would’ve played hard ball to check if he’d sign the QO (which he wouldn’t with all the injury concerns about him). So what i was saying was that he won’t be traded until the 2023 summer, even when he rejects the max extension during the year. Then that summer he’ll try to force his way here (i can feel it), even if he has to accept the QO. He’ll lose a lot of money because with the new TV deal, he’ll probably will be in line to make 35M in the 1st year of his standard contract, and if thenamestsam’s figure is correct, he’d make only around 18M. But that’s not peanuts, he’ll get away from NO to a huge market in NY where he’ll be the greatest sports player for a very long time (sorry, i don’t know a lot about the other sports so i might be wrong, but he’ll be one of those iconic sports players in NY, that’s huge). And i don’t think NO would risk that he’ll accept the QO, because that could be devastating for their franchise (better to take the L and try to extract the best deal you can).

    38. Sorry, i’ve miscalculated Zion’s first year value, because he’ll be on a supermax (30%) and the cap should rise to 142M (15M each year because of the new TV deal). My value was based on the 25% standard max contract for players with 6 or less years of experience. At 30% the figure is around 42.5M, that’s a lot of money to lose just that year. But i think the point stands, he’ll play hard ball and they won’t risk lose him for nothing. Julius and a lot of picks is a good return if the relationship is stranded.

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