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Tuesday, October 15, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.07.05)

  • [YahooSports] Knicks become betting favorites … to win the NBA Summer League
    (Friday, July 05, 2019 12:57:49 AM)

    The New York Knicks may have missed out on Zion Williamson and every major free agent, but at least their fans can hang their hats on this: They are the odds-on favorite to win the 2019 NBA Summer League. The Summer League seems like an odd thing to bet on — I certainly wouldn’t recommend it — but sportsbooks are always looking for extra ways to print money. Thus, the Westgate Las Vegas SuperBook released its odds for the 11-day rookie symposium.

  • [NYPost] Zion Williamson keeping NBA debut in perspective, even if world isn’t
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 10:33:10 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — An earthquake shook the ground near Cox Pavilion Thursday morning. Contrary to popular belief, Zion Williamson was not throwing down dunks. But there may be another one Friday night when the Pelicans’ prized No. 1 pick will finally make his anticipated debut — no less against former Duke teammate RJ Barrett and…

  • [NYPost] Knicks rookie Ignas Brazdeikis looking to prove skeptics wrong
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 8:48:16 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — Ignas Brazdeikis worked out with 13 teams but never for the Knicks. His representatives couldn’t imagine the 6-foot-7 freshman forward from Michigan falling to New York and their 55th pick of the second round. The 21-year-old from Canada never fell that far, but dropped far enough. With Sacramento at bat at 47,…

  • [NYPost] Zion Williamson-RJ Barrett not only storyline at NBA Summer League
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 7:17:39 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — The NBA’s Las Vegas Summer League tips off Friday on the campus of UNLV. Here’s what to watch for: Star watch Only three of June’s top-10 picks are expected to be in action Friday night and two of them will take the court together. Zion Williamson (No. 1) and RJ Barrett (No….

  • [NYPost] RJ Barrett on first Knicks game — and facing Zion Williamson
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 5:31:30 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — RJ Barrett has faced Zion Williamson countless times in practice as teammates at Duke. Now they get the Las Vegas stage as opponents. Barrett, the Knicks’ new 6-foot-7 lefty lottery pick, doesn’t have any grand advice for his Knicks teammates as the summer league team debuts Friday (9:30 p.m. ET) at UNLV…

  • [NYPost] Where Elfrid Payton sees himself in the Knicks’ point-guard pecking order
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 8:01:00 AM)

    LAS VEGAS — Elfrid Payton certainly didn’t sound like he was going to be a backup point guard for the Knicks. In fact, Payton said he had “so many options,” but picked the Knicks partly because of playing time. One of GM Scott Perry’s favorites, Payton agreed to terms on a two-year deal for $16…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ Mitchell Robinson on RJ Barrett: ‘The kid can play’
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 7:37:08 PM)

    And ahead of RJ Barrett’s Summer League debut, he has already impressed some of his teammates, including Mitchell Robinson.

  • [SNY Knicks] Names to watch on Knicks’ Summer League roster
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 10:22:06 AM)

    NBA Summer League, how you’ve been missed.

  • [SNY Knicks] Source: Kyrie Irving looked at suitors from a ‘top down’ approach, including Knicks and Nets
    (Thursday, July 04, 2019 9:30:07 AM)

    In a post on Instagram earlier this week, Kyrie Irving shed some light on his decision to sign with the Brooklyn Nets.

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    295 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.07.05)

    1. Zippy Le Pin

      Interesting section on two players in a 538 Bulls piece yesterday that nicely sums up some of our ‘concerns’ about our FO approach:

      Kornet should see far less playing time than Satoransky and Young, but he stands a good chance of being productive in his minutes as a backup center. If the Bulls are seeking to pivot into more of a 3-point shooting team (they ranked just 28th in 3-point attempt rate last season) the 7-foot-1 Texas native will help them do that. He launched almost nine threes per 36 minutes last year, the NBA’s second-highest rate among 7-footers who played at least 500 minutes, while hitting 36 percent of them.

      Chicago learned the hard way just how productive Kornet can be — the best games of his career came against the Bulls last year. While the exact numbers on Kornet’s two-year deal haven’t been reported yet, Chicago figures to get fantastic value here on this contract, too. Our model projects him to give the Bulls about $23 million worth of production over the next two seasons.

      And

      Interestingly enough, Chicago’s flurry of value signings comes as ex-Bulls forward Bobby Portis joins the Knicks on a two-year, $31 million deal that, according to our site’s model, rates as one of the biggest free-agent overpays of the summer. (The projections really hate Portis’s defense.)

    2. Knew Your Nicks

      In a time when Magic,Larry and Isiah were ruling the world as nba’s biggest stars back in the early 80s i remember my-very young-self getting hooked by the game of pat ewing during the 1984 olympics.
      After also getting a magazine featuring a presentation of Pat during these long forgotten times that was it !
      I declare myself a Knicks fan and started to read and watch every possible article, stat and clip happen to coming from america to the back then basketball growing Greece.
      After 35 years of ‘knicks disease’ looks like knickerblogger is the perfect prescription for psycho therapy !

    3. Z-man

      What a shock that the KB community would be unanimous in immediately concluding that Portis was a gross overpay. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of our FA signings are overpays to some degree. I suppose you have to factor in the team option aspect. RFAs tend to get overpaid but there’s no reason to overpay them other than opportunity cost during the waiting period.

      Alas, this is the team we have and salaries aside it should be a fun, scrappy team to watch, much better than last year’s. Kornet was a decent bench big but I’m not pining over him. I am really fired up about tonight! Aside from RJ, Knox, Trier and Mitch, I’m really interested to see Iggy and Wooten, both of whom I hope can make the team.

    4. Z-man

      I feeling pretty good about Payton as a decent plan B point guard. At the end of the day, anyone that can put up 5 consecutive triple-doubles at age has to be pretty good. The shooting is spotty and the defense is questionable, but if it weren’t, he wouldn’t have been available at that price. It’s probably as good of a move as Portis was a bad move.

    5. Hugo Busto

      We didn’t sign any RFA’s though. Portis had been renounced pretty sure.

      Anyway I’m looking forward to see Iggy, I hope he can get consistent minutes next season.

      And I am super curious to see how many minutes FRANK will be getting…

    6. Z-man

      And I am super curious to see how many minutes FRANK will be getting…

      I think the odds are reasonably high that Frank never plays for the Knicks again. Nothing they did in the offseason bodes well for him.

    7. Early Bird

      I’m trying to figure out why the Knicks value Portus so high (obviously Pointz!!! is the most likely reason). But here’s my attempt at a Ruru-esque cherrypicking to justify the move.

      Strangely, portis was worth ~$10 mill his rookie year per CARMELO and mostly for his defense. Draft projections seemed to like Portis on D, because of his motor. He’s not a great athlete so he may move too slow for modern PFs. On the other hand, +/- had him around 0 on the Wizards playing most his minutes at center. Anyway, that’s my theory for what the Knicks see. Knicks think the above plus Fizzmagic = good player.

    8. Z-man

      We didn’t sign any RFA’s though. Portis had been renounced pretty sure

      My info is that he was given the QO by the Wiz and was a RFA, then the Knicks made an offer, and then the Wiz rescinded their QO, making him a UFA; so we’re sort of both right.

    9. bobneptune

      What a shock that the KB community would be unanimous in immediately concluding that Portis was a gross overpay. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of our FA signings are overpays to some degree. I suppose you have to factor in the team option aspect. RFAs tend to get overpaid but there’s no reason to overpay them other than opportunity cost during the waiting period.

      Mostly agree. They surely paid more than fair market value for all 6 but there is a reasonable underlying thread beneath.

      Clearly they thought that below the top tier, Randle was someone they thought might be worth a long term commitment and also young enough. Many here think he is a reasonable gamble at 2+ TO. So they paid a little more than market value to get the length of contract they were happy with while retaining flexibility to dump the other 5 contracts and have room for AD should things go sour in LA. Perfectly reasonable.

      They overpaid Portis for one year hoping the light bulb goes of with a young 6’11’ 39% 3 ball shooter who averages 20/11 per 36. They can walk away for only money from him and the other 5 guys 6/30. And during this time they all provide professional competition for the young players so we don’t have a replay of the Knox minutes travesty.

      Not an unreasonable plan B.

    10. Ingmarrrr

      Why does anyone thinks giving Knox all the minutes he got was for lack of other options? You never have to play someone as bad, performance wise, as he was. Fiz chose to give him the minutes thinking it’s somehow good for his development.

    11. Z-man

      @12 agreed, but it was also in an abject tank year, which obviously will not be the case going forward. I hope it will be a moot point this year because he will almost certainly play better, but if he doesn’t, I seriously doubt that the leash will be as long.

    12. Ingmarrrr

      @13 we’ll have to see how Fiz handles it. It’s not going to be an easy puzzle to solve with so many players deserving minutes either because they’re better at their position, or because they’re so young they need minutes for development.

    13. ptmilo

      Is Tobias Harris miscast as a small forward? He’s going to have to play there for the Sixers and I just wonder if that’s a good fit for him or not. I am trying to figure out if Philly’s roster changes are going to work out.

      been thinking about this, too. my tentative take is that harris’ position isn’t that important and that harris in general isn’t that important. i think he’s a minus defender against most 3 and 4s (as defined today) and on offense he most only becomes a major mismatch advantage at the 4 if you pair him with a crazy small ball 5 like Doc sometimes did with Gallo or the other team is unusually big/slow. he’ll be a useful spacer and shot creator (very useful w/simmons on the court) and meh-but-not-JJ defender either way. as a semi-relevant note, here’s a good example of the sample size theatre problem. last year someone noticed that SGA/Bradley/Tobias/Gallo/Gortat was the best lineup in the NBA.

      https://clipperholics.com/2018/12/05/la-clippers-best-lineup-nba-23-games/

      from day that article was written until the harris trade that lineup was basically the worst in the NBA, and finished at -7.6 PPP in 349 mins. when you throw in a weird, line-blurring ben simmons on the floor, who knows what position to even call harris.

      i am a little more interested in what al and embiid look like together. horford has played well over 1000 minutes w a true big w less versatility than embiid (mainly baynes) over the last 2 years and those lineups have been ferociously effective. we haven’t seen a ton of embiid with a true 4/5 like al, but they have stayed effective on offense with simmons, who sometimes plays like more of a true 4/5 on O than al does.

      they are going to be able to field some ridiculous defensive lineups this year if Al doesn’t fall off the aging cliff. simmons/embiid/richardson/horford is truly nuts and at key moments can even add someone like thybulle/scott/zhaire smith.

    14. bobneptune

      Our model projects him to give the Bulls about $23 million worth of production over the next two seasons.

      While i’d have liked to keep Kornet around for cheap money 538 must be anticipating Wiemar Republic-like inflation the next two years :-)

      The thing that bothered me about Kornet was after shooting an ungodly level from 3 in the D-league he came up here and would make 5 in a row and then clank the next 10 badly bruising the glass and the side of the rim.

    15. Zippy Le Pin

      Bob,

      Eye test/small sample size alert: “clank the next 9” (=36%). Just sayin’.

    16. TheOakmanCometh

      Josh Jackson’s rapid demise should be flashing red sign for Perry’s approach to Kevin Knox. The two had remarkably similar rookie seasons.

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Josh+Jackson&player_id1_select=Josh+Jackson&player_id1=jacksjo02&y1=2018&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Knox&player_id2_select=Kevin+Knox&y2=2019&player_id2=knoxke01&idx=players

      Jackson was the #4 pick in the draft, yet after two seasons he was so useless that Phoenix had to pay Memphis to take on his contract. A year earlier, I’m sure Jackson still would have been worth a 1RP in trade.

      We should be trying to move Knox as soon as humanly possible. He still has some sheen as a “raw” lottery pick with “potential.” We can get something for him. A year from now, he’ll be just another overpaid bum.

    17. alsep73

      I think the odds are reasonably high that Frank never plays for the Knicks again. Nothing they did in the offseason bodes well for him.

      In one of his pieces where he was clearly acting as the front office’s mouthpiece, Berman suggested that if Frank somehow balls out in the FIBA tournament, he could reassert himself in the team’s plans. (Though he could also just raise his trade value.) Otherwise, based on his play last season and the team’s moves this summer, hard to see him having a place on the team.

    18. bobneptune

      Bob,

      Eye test/small sample size alert: “clank the next 9? (=36%). Just sayin’.

      Not really…. he shot 44.9% in the g-league over 266 attempts and shot 3% worse than Bobby Portis here.

      Kornet played 46 games this season:

      his first 23 games he shot 37 for 83 =44.578% from three

      his last 23 games he shot 33 for 112 = 30.357% from 3

      So he went from better than Steph Curry to worse than Frank Ntlinikina from the first half to the last half of the season but that ain’t streaky

    19. Knew Your Nicks

      I really want Frank to succeed as a Knick.
      I like his gentle demeanor and his bball skills but i guess his motor could use a bunch of adrenaline injections !

    20. KnickfaninNJ

      @19, the problem with Jackson was not just his rookie season, but then he didn’t get better. There were rumors of work ethic issues too. So I would say it is fair to see if Knox improves.

      I would also add that there is a really big difference in their shooting. Knox has a much better percentage on threes.

    21. bobneptune

      There were other “rumors”

      She stated she smelled marijuana once again May 20 when she arrived at Jackson’s house with the child’s nanny for a two-hour visit.

      “While sitting in the living room, the child’s nanny noticed a large marijuana blunt on the coffee table, in plain sight,” the filing said.

      Villela claimed after the baby spent time with Jackson May 22, Villela noticed she was “very lethargic.”

      According to court records, Jackson told Villela “the child had a busy day.”

      The mother tried to wake up the baby throughout the night.

      “Mother believing that the child may have just been kept very active throughout the day, just continued to monitor the child’s breathing,” the filing said.

      Villela said she forced the baby to wake up after she did not move for a long time. She claimed the baby “appeared to be high and could only lift her eyelids to midway point,” she stated in court records.

      Villela accused Jackson of using drugs while taking care of the child June 2.

      and

      According to the police report, he was told multiple times that he could not enter. After refusing to leave, an officer escorted him from the club. Jackson eventually was handcuffed because he tried to pull away from an officer, according to the police report.

      Jackson was instructed to sit in a golf cart, but he walked away when the officer left, police said.

      The officer told him once again to stay in the golf cart, but Jackson ran away, police said. He was caught and taken into the corrections office at Hard Rock Stadium.

      and

      Phoenix selected Jackson, a 6-foot-8 small forward, fourth overall in the 2017 NBA draft. He became a collegiate star in his one season at Kansas, but he had off-court issues.

      Kansas coach Bill Self suspended him for one game in the 2017 Big 12 Tournament after he was cited for “duty upon striking an unattended vehicle, inattentive driving and improper…

    22. Z-man

      re: Josh Jackson

      Jackson’s list of blemishes is pretty long. It includes flashing gun-like hand gestures at a fan, being arrested for fleeing and resisting arrest (after trying to enter a VIP section of a music festival led to a verbal altercation), smoking marijuana around his infant daughter, skipping out on a scheduled autograph session for Suns fans, vandalizing a female student-athlete’s car after a verbal altercation while in college at Kansas, and fleeing the scene of an accident after backing into a parked car. He has also been labeled as “un-coachable” and gained a reputation for shying away from his defensive calling card to focus (unsuccessfully) on being a scoring threat.

      Jackson hasn’t being accused of murder or anything like that, but he has shown a lack of self-awareness, as well as anger-management issues. That’s a scary combination for someone who’s only 22, with more than enough resources and money to get him into more trouble.

    23. geo

      That’s a scary combination for someone who’s only 22, with more than enough resources and money to get him into more trouble.

      as reckless and foolish as I was at 22, probably for the best I wasn’t put up on a pedestal and handed gobs of cash…

      hopefully the trade will help serve as a wake up call for the young man…

      most folks see their largest job earnings towards the end of their careers/employment…

      big challenge for a professional athlete to adjust to having all that cash, and, then figuring out how to sustain that lifestyle for the next 40 years or so of their life once they move away from playing…

    24. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      1. Most of our signings will probably turn out to be overpays. Tab Gibson is probably fair for a year on a good team, but I’m not sure he makes sense on this team. Other than that, we are hoping for improvement. It’s been the typical Mills/Perry off season and draft. Overpay or draft scorers and talk about defense later when we are ranked near the bottom again. Look to move players, but no one wants them because they are overpaid. At least the mistakes are shorter.

      2. Berman has been saying that the Knicks don’t consider Frank a PG. So with the addition of a bunch of SGs, it would appear the handwriting is on the wall for Frank unless the rumors that he’s grown to close to 6′ 7″ are true and he can be moved to SF. I contacted someone that knows him. I was told he has grown a little more and is much stronger.

      Honestly though, as someone that’s a fan of his defensive skillset and willingness to move the ball, he deserves better than to be on the Knicks anyway. They don’t value his skills and don’t know how to develop players. I’d like to see him on the Spurs or reunited with KP in Dallas. He’d be perfect in Dallas because they have scorers and don’t need a traditional PG given that Doncic will have the ball. He could focus on defense, makes some plays, and keep working on his 3.

      3. Josh Jackson and Kevin Knox have nothing in common that matters to the latter’s development.

      4. It’s going to be tough to score inside on Embiid and Horford. When Embiid inevitably gets hurt or is going through load management, Horford can shift to the C and they won’t lose as much as they have been. Still, I don’t think the team is constructed well. Unless Simmons learns how to shoot, they need a ton of shooters on the court. Both Embiid and Horford can make 3s, but if you are the defense, that’s what you want them doing. They are going to be very good, but they are going to struggle at times with spacing and other scoring issues.

    25. Hugo Busto

      I think the odds are reasonably high that Frank never plays for the Knicks again. Nothing they did in the offseason bodes well for him.

      Yup, this is most likely the case. He really has no trade value at this point though but a smart organization would have a better shot at developing him into a contributing player.

      That’s another thing I am really curious about is what kind of trades will or can the Knicks even make this year.

    26. Hugo Busto

      Another thing, Why did the Knicks release Joakim when they did? Even if they had this offseason in mind wanting cap space, coiuldn’t they have just waited till after the season to see how things play out with FA’s? And then you can decide to stretch him or not.

      Who cares if he wasn’t really on the team, let him get paid to sit at home.

    27. ClashFan

      Yeah, there were warning signs about Jackson before the draft.

      Frank and DSJ probably each need to show some improvement very quickly or not get their options picked up. I think they’d combine to cost around $12m next year?

    28. Donnie Walsh

      I think the odds are reasonably high that Frank never plays for the Knicks again. Nothing they did in the offseason bodes well for him.

      Yup, this is most likely the case. He really has no trade value at this point

      They exercised his 3rd year option already, so without trade value, where else is Frank gonna go?

    29. TheOakmanCometh

      There are a lot of teams that would probably take a chance on a 20-year old SF like Knox. Like, would Detroit give us their lottery-protected 2020 pick for him? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

    30. Z-man

      I believe it would be short-sighted for the Knicks to trade Knox unless they are seeing a lack of progress in his workouts and in summer league.

    31. Bruno Almeida

      I’m not gonna lie, I’m pretty excited to watch the summer league game. Zion plus Barrett, with Mitch, Knox and Trier all playing, should be very fun.

    32. Sir Robin

      Canceled the meeting with Kahwi. Of course they did and i understand why they think they have no shot to sign him. Then why schedule it to begin with? Should maybe have kept enough ammo available to sign him. Another indication that they executed Plan B, i.e., overpaying for short term free agent deals, too soon.

      Besides, there are always very good reasons to meet with a player of Kawhi’s caliber, if not for the present, to lay groundwork for future dealings by establishing a relationship with him and his agent. This is a “Free Agency” period, meaning you can speak to ANYONE who is a free agent. Have a cordial, well-run basketball / business meeting with Kawhi. Players and agents do talk to each other, no? This is how we can take next steps to rehabilitate our image. Remember, Kawhi may be biding his time for the next 2 years (wherever he lands) until his mega max deal. Why not lay the pipe for those future discussions. Find out what he likes and doesn’t like. But no, the Dolan-mites can’t see the forest for the trees. And instead, they CANCEL A MEETING WITH THE ONE PLAYER IN THE GAME WHO AT THIS TIME HAS THE MOST CRED AND LEVERAGE!

    33. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      The Knicks will get another long look at Frank while he’s playing for France. He’ll be fully healthy for the first time in awhile with another summer of work behind him. They’ll be able to make a decision on him at that point. If he hasn’t made any progress he’ll be out. Eventually some patient organization will pick him up, put him on the bench, work with him for year or two on offense, and it will either pay off big with a solid versatile 3& and D playmaker or he’ll be playing in France.

    34. kevin5318

      I’m hoping Frank gets at least one more shot with us this year. With the guys we signed he’ll have to earn his minutes at the least.

    35. JK47

      Honestly though, as someone that’s a fan of his defensive skillset and willingness to move the ball, he deserves better than to be on the Knicks anyway. They don’t value his skills and don’t know how to develop players.

      Somehow it’s the Knicks’ fault that Frank was the worst player in the NBA for two years and as an added bonus had the durability of a soggy Kleenex. Sure, maybe they’re not the greatest at player development but I think some of it is on Frank stunk out NBA arenas across the land when he was healthy enough to play.

    36. Max

      https://mobile.twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1147161619450990593?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1147161619450990593&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.postingandtoasting.com%2F2019%2F7%2F5%2F20683265%2Fmitchell-robinson-named-to-select-team-at-team-usa-training-camp

      “According to Bleacher Report, the select team is made up of 10 “up-and-coming players who are being considered for Team USA’s final roster in the 2020 Olympics,” which will be held in Japan. The select team is the group that plays against the actual USA Basketball team during practice, so the NBA has a vested interest in ensuring that competition is fierce.”

    37. thenoblefacehumper

      Frank Ntilikina was available to every team in the NBA, including the smart ones that will inevitably turn him into a two-way dynamo, for a single second round pick. Nobody bit, because the only people who aren’t aware that he sucks ass are here and on r/nyknicks. The Mavs preferred Isaiah Roby to Frank Ntilikina. The Spurs preferred Quinndary Weatherspoon to Frank Ntilikina. The Raptors preferred Dewan Hernandez, who I can tell you with authority was a mediocre ass college player, to Frank Ntilikina.

      I dunno guys, seems like a pretty simple Occam’s Razor situation to me.

    38. KnickfaninNJ

      I agree, everyone thinks he is lousy, but that doesn’t mean he won’t be a capable player in the future. He had so much stuff to work on and was so young when we drafted him it was never in the cards he would be good in his second season. Then all the injuries set him back some more. I hope he gets a real shot in the NBA this season.

    39. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Somehow it’s the Knicks’ fault that Frank was the worst player in the NBA for two years and as an added bonus had the durability of a soggy Kleenex. Sure, maybe they’re not the greatest at player development but I think some of it is on Frank stunk out NBA arenas across the land when he was healthy enough to play.

      1. I think coming into the draft it was known that he was going to be a multi year project on offense. If you want a versatile defense oriented pass first player, think there’s enough upside, and are willing to work with him for a few years, you select him. If you don’t, you select someone else. Current management doesn’t appear to be on board with being patient with him. Nor do they value defense.

      2. I think his injuries have been a bit of surprise and set him back a bit, but I wouldn’t be particularly worried about it.

      3. I think bringing in a player like Mudiay and then playing him over Frank (not to mention Burke) in a tanking year was borderline brain damaged. I think sending an immature kid that suffers from confidence issues to the dog house after he has a bad game or two is begging to fvck him up worse. But that’s what I expect from the blatant idiots in charge now.

    40. JK47

      Frank got plenty of minutes when he was healthy, which was not often. He got 21 minutes per game actually. It wasn’t like he was buried behind Mudiay and couldn’t get minutes.

      He sure was awful when he did play though!

    41. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @47

      Mudiay should never have seen a Knicks uniform let alone taken any minutes from Frank or cost us a pick. He’s bad on both sides of the ball, but some people are too dumb to realize there are two sides. They are often employed by and fans of the Knicks.

    42. JK47

      Mudiay should never have seen a Knicks uniform let alone take any minutes or cost us a pick.

      This is true.

      It also has nothing to do with Frank sucking.

      “Man, Nickelback is really terrible”
      “But what about Creed doe”

    43. KnickfaninNJ

      Studies have been reported that point guards take a long time to develop and tall point guards especially so, and most of those slow developing point guards entered the league older than Frank. So he could get good, but it could be a while. But if he gets good, he’ll still be a defense first point guard who can orchestrate the offense, but only scores opportunistically. He has to be good enough at open shots to make that worthwhile, but I can see that happening. Unfortunately for him, that’s not the sort of point guard that is popular in the league now, even though there have been successful point guards like that in the past. And that style is particularly not appreciated on the new Knicks.

    44. Z-man

      Unfortunately for him, that’s not the sort of point guard that is popular in the league now, even though there have been successful point guards like that in the past. And that style is particularly not appreciated on the new Knicks.

      More accurately, his style of sucking at a prodigious level of suckitude is not appreciated on the new Knicks, or any other team.

      But according to strat, at the rate he is growing, he’ll be looking down at Tacko Fall and pushing Zion around by 2026, so better offer him a long-term deal now before we miss out!

    45. thenoblefacehumper

      There’s not a team in the league that would’ve given Frank more playing time than the Knicks. Were we supposed to clear the roster of all other point guards and play Frank 48 minutes per game? He can’t play 20 without missing 6 weeks.

      Just spitballing here, but maybe there was no optimal way to develop Frank Ntilikina because, as is the assessment every other team in the NBA, he is not an NBA player.

    46. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @49

      We all agree he sucks on offense.

      We are talking about trying to develop the offensive side of a kid that’s got the potential to be a very high level versatile defender that can do other things. You either try to develop him or you don’t.

      What part of Mudiay (or even Burke) starting and getting minutes instead of Frank and slowing that development was a good idea in a tanking year (all while Knox was being the worst two way player in the NBA getting the green light)?

      Frank sat out some games in the doghouse while he was healthy because our pinhead coach liked Mudiay, Burke or some other dolt that can’t defend a lick and will never be a top offensive player. It was idiotic. Our management is idiotic. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing EXCEPT not giving away bad long term contracts. They give out bad short term bad contracts instead.

    47. JK47

      Studies have been reported that point guards take a long time to develop and tall point guards especially so, and most of those slow developing point guards entered the league older than Frank.

      Frank is not a point guard by any stretch of anybody’s wildest imagination. HE CAN’T DRIBBLE. So considering he’s not a point guard and never will be in ten million years, maybe those studies don’t really apply.

    48. Knew Your Nicks

      Maybe he don’t feel great in the nba such as Mirotic.
      Probably suffers from the euro-syndrome too…

    49. Z-man

      Frank sat out some games in the doghouse while he was healthy because our pinhead coach liked Mudiay, Burke or some other dolt that can’t defend a lick and will never be a top offensive player. It was idiotic.

      This is laughable. Only Ntilakilla has made dumber arguments than this, and even he finally let it go.

      But let’s see what he does in France. Perhaps they will figure out how to use him correctly.

    50. thenoblefacehumper

      The good news is if coach quality can be determined by how much they play Frank Ntilikina, Fizdale is definitely the best in the game. That dude was not getting 21 MPG anywhere else in the NBA, and probably not in some of the more competitive other leagues.

    51. KnickfaninNJ

      I don’t buy that Frank didn’t get enough playing time. He just isn’t good yet. Like Strat, I believe he can be good in the future.

    52. Z

      What part of Mudiay (or even Burke) starting and getting minutes instead of Frank and slowing that development was a good idea in a tanking year

      Burke (who was actually good in ’17-’18) started the first five games. Then Ntilikina was given the starting PG job in game #6. He proceeded to play 215 minutes as a starter, shoot 25-74, dish out 32 assists, and turn the ball over 19 times. Then they decided to give Mudiay a shot.

      Frank Ntilikina was given a chance, and he was terrible. Which isn’t the end-all-be-all because of his age and the fact that it was only 8 games. But, his “give him a chance” stats were just as bad as his stats before his chance and after his chance. All-in-all, he’s played a lot of pro minutes now and has actually gotten worse during them, not better. That is as damning a sign of an NBA player as there has ever been. Literally nobody has turned out to be good after playing 2000 minutes and getting worse not better. Out of thousands of players, he would be the first. You’re a betting man, aren’t you Stratomatic? Are you being contrarian just for fun with Frank, or are you saying you would really place your bet on Frank Ntilikina to turn out to be a good NBA player?

    53. Z-man

      I, for one, have said pretty consistently that Frank has the tools to become a pretty good NBA rotation player, mainly contingent on him hitting the 3-ball at a high-30’s% clip. Otherwise he has no role in the NBA at all. He never was, is not, and will never be an NBA-level PG. That was crystal clear from his game film and stats in France. He was a terrible pick at where he was picked, and it should have been incredibly obvious at the time…more than it was for Knox even. He should have been a draft-n-stash second rounder at best.

      There is really no reason to wait on him, other than finding a team stupid enough to give us a ham sandwich for him and take his $5 million gift off of our books. You can find better prospects in the G-League at a much lower cost pretty much every day of the year. If he doesn’t do anything special in France, I’d stick him in the G-League until his option can be declined.

    54. thenoblefacehumper

      If Frank gets any bigger the Knicks might have to call in the National Guard

    55. JK47

      The thing is though, Frank rebounds like complete shit, so his upside as a 3-and-D wing seems like maybe not so great? One of the many ways in which Frank fails to fill a boxscore is that he’s a pitifully anemic rebounder.

      And if you give him the “3” part of “3 and D,” he’s still a horrible offensive player, we have been over this. His skill set adds up to not a whole hell of a lot.

    56. Management can be bad at talent evaluation, team construction, or contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      Article about the Knicks PG situation.

      https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/sources-elfrid-payton-will-have-every-opportunity-to-win-knicks-starting-pg-job/308781808

      “The Knicks talked to at least one team about a trade involving Ntilikina and the return of an early second-round pick. They also discussed deals around the return of a late first-round pick. Some teams considering Ntilikina were wary of making the trade before the draft because his salary ($5 million) would impact their cap space in free agency and they couldn’t be sure of what they were getting in Ntilikina, who has dealt with injuries and inconsistent performances/minutes allotment in New York.

      It is unclear if the Knicks will continue to try to move Ntilikina.”

    57. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, Nando De Colo, who’s also a tall French PG who’s infinitely more talented than Frank because he can actually dribble and shoot, couldn’t really stick in the NBA. And De Colo was an actual superstar in the euroleague, not a role player on a mediocre French league team.

      It doesn’t matter that tall PGs tend to take longer to develop when the guy we’re talking about is not a Point Guard. I really can’t believe we’re still talking about him, Strat loving him should be clear enough indication that he’s not good in the first place. Let him play of course because it’s not like we have a better plan or like he’s tradeable at all, but the facts are really obvious in this case.

    58. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      I’m not sure if this forum is a serious Knicks discussion board or a place for trolls to congregate and try to get a rise out of people that would actually like to win some day with competent two way players and by fitting players together in a coherent way.

      I mean, no one on earth has been more one-sided in his thinking than Mike D’Antoni. But at least he has a coherent plan. Give me 4 guys that are above average from 3, a C that can finish on the P&R, and a PG that can run the P&R, and I’ll give you a top offense in the league. If you can find some guys that can do that and defend also, I’ll give you a contender.

      The Knicks plan:

      Give me guys that can jump high, run fast, create their own shot, and play good 3 on 3 basketball. I don’t care how they fit together or how efficient they are as long at they DON’T play defense.

    59. JK47

      I want competent two-way players! But offense is one of the two “ways,” and guys with offensive skill sets like Frank’s can’t play. If you magically gave him a great 3-point shot, he still can’t get to the rim, can’t finish at the rim and can’t draw fouls, so there is a very long path ahead of him to get him to “two-way player.”

    60. BJ

      Frank is very young. He might someday turn into a productive player. Unfortunately the years the Knicks have control over him are unlikely to be productive. The Knicks should try to turn him into an asset but not if it is costing wins and they aren’t tanking. The G league is a fine place for him if he isn’t earning minutes.

    61. KnickfaninNJ

      Don’t forget the veteran leadership from Gibson and Thomas part of the plan.

    62. TheClashFan

      I’m intrigued by this Speedy Smith cat.

      Played last year for Detroit SL in 6 games. Missed every single shot he took. 0-14, inc. 0-8 from three.

    63. Bruno Almeida

      @66

      I used to think your complete lack of self awareness was cute for a while, but it’s really becoming just annoying when the only strategy that you keep parroting day after day can be summed up by 15 year old kids as “just get two way players loool”. Specially when Frank couldn’t be further away from being a two way player.

      But its always the same shit. Everyone who disagree with the bullshit you say is either a troll, stupid or too young to understand anything. It’s always been a forum for serious Knicks discussion and quite honestly, it’s you who constantly derails discussions into the same garbage every single time.

    64. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m not sure if this forum is a serious Knicks discussion board or a place for trolls to congregate and try to get a rise out of people that would actually like to win some day with competent two way players and by fitting players together in a coherent way.

      It’s just annoying to see the same easily debunked arguments put forth again, again, and again and then get told that the only reason you don’t understand them is because you’re not sufficiently intelligent.

      Everyone has irrational attachments to certain players, and I suppose in your specific case, former executives too. No one is criticizing you for rooting hard for Frank, or liking Phil Jackson as a person, or whatever. I’m happy to admit I probably give DSJ more of a pass than I should because I watched him bust the ass of my Miami Hurricanes on a team in which I couldn’t name another player.

      But you don’t see me telling people they’re too stupid to understand DSJ’s latent greatness. The overwhelming majority of your posts about Frank, Phil, and other stuff either imply or say explicitly that you’re one of the enlightened few that can see through the .400 TS% or the Joakim Noah contract and appreciate true brilliance.

      It’s tired, factually inaccurate, condescending bunk and so it gets responded to as such.

    65. thenoblefacehumper

      As usual Bruno has said what’s on my mind more concisely.

      The straw man shit might be the worst of it all. Anyone who doesn’t worship at the alter Frank Ntilikina just hates two way players.

    66. JK47

      We have secret troll meetings where we hatch diabolical schemes to snark-talk Knicks fans who want two-way players. It’s kind of like the Freemasons.

    67. Knew Your Nicks

      The Dreamer in me sees Frank as the 21st Century version of Nate McMillan but the Realist in me sees a “NON Alle-retour” ticket to Europe waiting in the corner…

    68. thenoblefacehumper

      Some teams considering Ntilikina were wary of making the trade before the draft because his salary ($5 million) would impact their cap space in free agency and they couldn’t be sure of what they were getting in Ntilikina, who has dealt with injuries and inconsistent performances/minutes allotment in New York.

      In which Strat destroys the notion that Frank has no trade value by pointing out that the only reason he wasn’t traded is because other GMs think he sucks. Eye-opening stuff.

    69. E

      Frank isn’t a two-way player; he’s a one-way player. The point is more that the one way is really, really good and the team should be trying to build up from that rather than giving him away for a bag of balls. Stats are misused when they’re used to justify/demand throwing in the towel on 19 and 20 year olds.

      And please don’t cite DBPM to talk about Frank’s defense. If you’re a fan of the team and you watch all or most of the games closely, you shouldn’t need DBPM. The guy is an excellent defender, not far from elite. If he had enough of an offensive game that we could be convinced he’d last in the league, he has first-team all-defense potential. Which is why, for example, if people go back to the thread around the first summer league game last summer against the Hawks, they’ll see how everyone was going on about how poor Trae Young didn’t have much of a chance against Frankie Defense.

      He didn’t get worse defensively since then.

    70. Ben R

      Frank has a very long way to go to be a good player but I think he has one thing in his favor and it is enough, in my opinion, to keep trying to develop him at least for one more season. A player with definite strengths and weaknesses is better than a player that is just kind of ok at everything because it is easier to go from bad to average in something than it is to go from average to good or good to great or great to elite.

      Frank has two skills that are both well above average. I think he is an elite on-ball defender and a very good team defender. Everything else ranges from utterly terrible to merely bad. I think his passing, rebounding, and shooting are bad and his ball-handling (for a point guard) and overall scoring ability are terrible. Since Frank is such a good defender he only needs to be passable in everything else to have value. If you are an elite shooter and passable at everything else you are valuable if you are an elite defender and passable at everything else you are also valuable.

      It’s why I see more potential in Frank, who merely needs to become average at the things he’s bad at to be valuable, than Smith Jr, who while farther along in most things has no elite skills so he needs to get great at something before he is valuable. Getting great is exponentially harder than getting average.

      As for last year, he was injured or recovering from injury for most of it so I think he gets a bit of a pass. He needs to show real improvement soon, but using an injury-plagued second season on an unstable team as proof he can’t get better seems shortsighted.

    71. BigBlueAL

      People love to talk about defense and how important it is like it’s still the 1990’s. In today’s NBA if you can’t shoot or make any type of impact on the offensive end you can’t be on the court. Bad defensive players can be hidden on defense or the team can do strategical stuff to minimize his defensive shortcomings but on offense if you suck they can’t hide you. The other teams will just completely ignore you and really screw up the offense which we see time and again come playoff time.

      I’ll take the player who can shoot or at least score at a decent efficiency any day over a player who is supposedly good on defense but is virtually unplayable offensively. Also for being a supposed great defensive player Frank gets no steals and rebounds horribly for a guard especially with his height.

    72. E

      Defense isn’t as important as offense. There’s no defensive analogue to a guy hitting a tough shot, especially a tough three-pointer, over elite defense. But defense is still very important, especially in crunch time, especially in the playoffs. The Knicks don’t have much crunch time, don’t have much playoffs. Hopefully some day they will. When they do, they’ll wish they had a Frank-level defender on the roster.

    73. thenoblefacehumper

      The reason Frank’s defensive numbers don’t jump off the page is simple; he doesn’t get steals or defensive rebounds.

      He’s better than the numbers say, but worse than the Frankophiles think. Your defensive impact has a pretty hard cap if you’re not ending possessions.

    74. Knew Your Nicks

      Iman Sumpert and Tyson Chandler were also famous for their defense but personally i was never fond of their D…
      Great D means making a good scorer nervous, mad, tired and benched. Shutting him down.
      Or for a Center means Making the paint and the rim a restricted area.
      That’s when Good D is obvious & changes games.

    75. BigBlueAL

      Shumpert actually got steals and while he was a pretty poor rebounder he was still a better rebounder than Frank. Chandler was an excellent rebounder although for me he could’ve been a much better shotblocker but he was good at drawing charges and contesting shots without actually blocking them.

      Also in the one playoff series the Knicks have won in the last 19 years Shump defensively absolutely shut down Paul Pierce who shot 37% for the series and an ever worse 27% from 3pt range.

    76. JK47

      The other problem with Frank is that he’s positionless. The horrible rebounding means he’s really best suited to play PG, a position he can’t play. So you can use him at SG, but he’s a limited SG too because he can’t attack the rim. So you would need him to be a deadly sharpshooting SG, which he isn’t. He can’t really play SF because of the rebounding.

      So really he’s at best like a jump shooting SG, who will probably always be a low-TS% player because he can’t get easy buckets, and because he isn’t Kyle Korver as a shooter. That’s not a very valuable player even if he’s elite on defense.

    77. Knew Your Nicks

      If you were asking me to pick an All Defensive Team from the 2010’s i would have never thought of Shump & Chandler.
      First that come to mind are Kawhi, Klay, Gobert, OKC Ibaka, Draymond Green, Iguodala, PJ Tucker, Avery Bradley++++

    78. Sir Robin

      I’m looking forward to tonight’s SL game for 2 reasons; first, because 1 of my favorite college players ever is playing. That would be Zion, in my mind as great as the likes of Maravich, Walton, Patrick, Bird, Magic and Michael. I’m sure Zion will be great and will terrorize the league like those guys did. And second, RJ, cuz he’s a NYK and cuz I hope he will be great, just not very sure of it.

    79. Knew Your Nicks

      Shumpert’s defensive fame seemed to me much more than what i was watching. It wasn’t like “wow, Iman gets in ! No more points for MrX ! Now we ‘ve got it” Nowhere near that….
      As for Tyson i’m still wondering HOW THE FK Did he get thet award !!!

    80. Name is Bron - James Bron

      What happened here? The group karma devolved in a hurry from everybody singing kumbaya together to Grumpy Old Men feudin’ over the same issue yet again. Might as well just provide links instead of retyping…or maybe just not rehash the same arguments over and over. Fortunately, the board will be thrown some fresh meat tonight in the form of the first summer league game.

      I guess the new Carmelo ratings are of some interest though. I haven’t tracked their historical accuracy but in perusing the Knick players (and ex-Knicks) they seem reasonable enough. Kornet,Vonleh, Payton rated as rotation players worth about 10m/yr (sigh). Portis/Trier/Knox are “projects” (KK a major project), Randle an average starter, Lance/Reggie/Ellington/Dotson/Kadeem all “scrubs”. Most interesting and controversial are Frank and DSJ being pegged as players to watch, Frank at a 5yr market value of 43m.

      I’ve been in the camp of giving Frank one more major opportunity. His ability to disrupt key players on other teams like Trae and switch 1-5 is very valuable especially during the playoffs. Nate Silver gave Trump a 33% chance of winning in 2016 and he won bc many key mid-western states moved as a group. It’s not inconceivable that many of Frank’s shooting woes from various places (mid-range, 3, rim) could do that as well owing to recovery from injury, improved physical and mental strength, and summer training focus. FIBA tournament will provide some insight. While it’s against the odds, it’s not *that* improbable to dismiss it. He should be given minutes at start of season instead of Wayne and Reggie. If no improvement after a couple of months, then G League.

      I wouldn’t pick up his option since his value rates to be within what what our rights could afford. Of course, Frank would be a UFA and could decide to exit out of the same door as KP.

    81. Knew Your Nicks

      What happened here? The group karma devolved in a hurry from everybody singing kumbaya together to Grumpy Old Men feudin’ over the same issue yet again.

      :-DDD

    82. Bruno Almeida

      Of course defense is important, but defense can’t be your only contribution to a team if you want to be a starter in the NBA or anything close to it. Andre Roberson is a legit amazing defender and even OKC had issues keeping him on the floor because of his zero presence on offense. Tony Allen was a fantastic defender who could guard three positions extremely well, and he never averaged more than 27 minutes per game, even in those heavily defense focused Grizzlies teams, because he was a zero on offense (and he was a better transition player than Frank is).

      It’s just idiotic to be calling for two way players and then get mad because people are criticizing a player who is amongst the 5 worst players in the entire NBA on one of those ways. Tony Allen went 14 seasons without developing a three pointer, Roberson is entering his sixth season and still can’t shoot, and they’re both better defenders than Frank is because they also can rebound and steal the ball every once in a while.

    83. TheClashFan

      @90

      What happened here? The group karma devolved in a hurry from everybody singing kumbaya together to Grumpy Old Men feudin’ over the same issue yet again.

      I tried to unite everyone into becoming Speedy Smith fans. I failed miserably. But hey, at least Speedy will be on the court tonight (well, sitting on the bench) for ME to root for. Frank N is nowhere to be found!

      I love Speedy because I LITERALLY could not have shot worse in the SL last year than Speedy. He missed every shot! I find that endearing…

    84. Farfa

      I’m one of the most ardent Frankophiles out there and even I can’t bring myself to believe he could ever become more than a good 6th man in the Italian league. There’s no reason in giving up on him but believing he will turn out a useful NBA player is a massive reach in the ballpark of believing Ashley Simpson will ever become a perennial Grammy nominee.

    85. DRed

      I mean, listen: We talking about ntilikina. Not a game. Not a game. Not a game. We talking about ntilikina

    86. Hugo Busto

      aren’t the advanced defensive metrics pretty garbage though? can DBPM really be trusted?

    87. E

      I think we could all agree that they should fix that thingie where summer league starts before official signing date, which keeps a bunch of traded guys out of summer league.

    88. Ben R

      Frank was truly horrible last year but it looked like something was wrong. For most of November and December, he wasn’t even aggressive on defense. In his rookie season he shot a quite good 62% at the rim but last year he shot 49%. His 3 point shot dropped from 32% to 29%. Some players fail to develop but most young players don’t get actively worse.

      After his rookie season, I thought he was a good 3pt shot from being able to develop into Patrick Beverley. In fact even with his bad year last year he shoots better at the rim, better from 10-16 and better from 16-3pt than Beverley. He has a better assist%, a similar blk%, and higher usage. Beverley gets more steals but Frank’s stl% in his rookie year is only .2% worse than Beverley’s career %. I don’t see it as too much of a leap if last year was the outlier and not his rookie year. This year should show us which year was the fluke.

      There is a lot of reason to believe that Frank is a bust but I think he showed enough in his rookie year to hold out some hope that maybe injuries affected him last year more than he let on.

    89. Knew Your Nicks

      @92
      Would you call Speedy Smith a “Miss-a-couple-First PG” or is it too much ?

    90. TheClashFan

      @92
      I’d call Speedy a “super fast PG,” but that’s kind of redundant. He’s speedy. He’s a pace pusher, and, um… Tonight he’s probably a “towel waver” and “bench congratuler,” etc.

      He’s only the second Speedy I’ve ever heard of. The first, of course, was Speedy Gonzales!

    91. BigBlueAL

      @96 Yeah, this year Summer League seems to be starting a week earlier than usual. Most of the times Summer League starts shortly after the official signing date but not this year.

    92. JK47

      Yeah I mean sure, give Frank more minutes, I’d rather see the minutes go to young guys in general on this team. There’s no harm in giving him another shot, worse case scenario you lose some games. Maybe he really was hampered by injuries more than we thought last year, that is a reasonable enough thing to hope for.

      He’s never been good though, not at any level.

    93. Knew Your Nicks

      If you’re reading this > i don’t really mean it Speedy.
      Just trying to motivate you to kick ass !
      Once a Knick Always a Knick !

    94. Grocer

      aren’t the advanced defensive metrics pretty garbage though? can DBPM really be trusted?

      Basically. Pretty sure DBPM is just BPM minus OBPM. So it’s all the things that aren’t explicitly offense but it’s not an actually good measure and the folks who came up with BPM will be the first to admit it. There aren’t any good catchall defensive stats. Pretty sure that’s why Strat is a DEFENSE guy – it’s difficult to measure so he thinks he can get away with his nebulous bullshit. It’s not true and it just exasperates everybody else but there you go. The exasperation of their mental superiors is how the small-minded convince themselves of their superiority.

    95. TheClashFan

      Well, last year Speedy was a “Miss Always” PG.

      I want the guy to hit just one shot this SL. Assuming he ever gets on the court. Maybe then he’ll get a 1+1 from Steve Mills?

      As Knicks fans we should always be looking for small victories to root for.

    96. Knew Your Nicks

      @105
      that’s something worth waiting for !
      1+1 but if he punch Ignas he gets 15 !

    97. TheClashFan

      If given the chance, Speedy will juke Zion right out of his shoes! Or, Zion will just break them, again.

    98. TheClashFan

      @106
      If Speedy punches Iggy, Speedy will have to change his name to Sleepy after Iggy drops him.

      Think of all the headlines in the Post, though!

      Only a little over an hour and a half until Speedy Smith’s Knicks debut!

    99. Bruno Almeida

      If Speedy is smart he’ll come out guns blazing, since the Knicks management proved last season that they value volume over shot quality every time. Shoot your shot Speedy, you can do it.

    100. nicos

      I didn’t even think Frank was particularly good on defense last year. He had some good games but he had some poor ones as well. In his rookie season his defensive FG% allowed was a really impressive 41.4 but last year it was a much less impressive (in fact below average) 46.1. For the record both Mudiay and DSJ put up better numbers. Not only does he not get steals/blocks but he doesn’t even get many deflections- Smith got more than double the deflections while playing about 25% more minutes and Mudiay got more deflections AND drew more charges than Frank per minute last year. Now I’ll admit that Frank’s best attribute is his ability to make guys give up the ball so there’s no shot/turnover to be counted. And I don’t doubt he was still better on that end than DSJ or Mudiay but I didn’t think he was anywhere near elite on that end last year.

      Looking at that steep drop in fg% allowed does suggest that he might not have been physically right much of the season so I do hope the Knicks at least give him a decent look in pre-season before making any final decision on him.

    101. TheClashFan

      John Starks should take Speedy under his wing and tutor him in the ways of unrepentent gunning. Or, just watch Knox play for a bit…

    102. Count de Pennies

      There’s a Kawhi waiting in the sky
      He’d like to come and meet us
      But we told him “never mind.”

    103. TheClashFan

      Speedy in the house!

      Oh, yeah, RJ, too. And Knox doesn’t look like he’s gained a pound.

    104. KnickfaninNJ

      At first glance, Gafford looked like our Robinson and it turns out his summer league stats are also similar.

    105. Owen

      Has it started? Lakers summer league game pretty fugly…

      Edit: Ok, I can see Zion in the tunnel…

    106. TheClashFan

      Zion wowing the crowd with warmup dunks. Let’s see ya dunk on Mitch and… Speedy!

    107. dtrickey

      1st play they run a lob for Zion. Think we know what the strategy is going to be here……

    108. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Just for the record you can calculate calculate OBPM from DBPM and vice versa, it’s just that people usually calculate DBPM by subtracting OBPM from BPM, and not the other way around. It’s a perfectly cromulent defensive metric. But not as good as DRPM or DPIPM.

    109. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      This upcoming Knicks’ season will be very different if Knox is a legit volume shooter from 3. He’s killing Zion right now.

    110. KJG

      5 nba rotation guys (on the worst team, I get it) taking it to 4 guys and Zion. Going as expected. Keep it up fellas

    111. Frank O.

      Maybe the kids will rise to the challenge…
      So far Robinson finishes about 10 feet above the basket, Trier is dancing, Knox is stroking…
      I mean hell.

    112. Owen

      Zion did do a 360 windmill in warmups. If I had been him though I would have been on a couch until the ink was dry on a contract. Looks a little pudge.

      Knox en fuego. I am ready to be wrong. Summer league is basically glorified 3 on 3 though right?

    113. dtrickey

      In all seriousness, this is what you want to see from Knox, Trier and Mitch. Go out and flex a bit of muscle. I know it’s inferior competition, but they need to come out and push some of these guys around a bit.

    114. Bruno Almeida

      Knox never met a 3 point shot he didn’t like, but if he keeps shooting them like this, let them fly.

    115. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Really though, the Knicks could be some form of Utah East if Knox is legit:

      Rubio/Payton
      Mitchell/Barrett
      Ingles/Knox
      Crowder/Randle
      Gobert/Robinson

      The comparison isn’t perfect, but WOW Zion nevermind.

    116. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Hmmm… Knox as a potential 38% 3pt shooter this season… possible? Plausible?

    117. Jack Bauer

      Updated impressions – that Zion guy is pretty good.

      Mitch, Trier, and Allen are playing well together

    118. TheClashFan

      RJ looks pretty bad so far. Been burned twice on D, too. Hopefully he loosens up.

    119. Frank O.

      someone has got to get Zion shorts that won’t split. Geez, that man had a hearty meal or two since the draft

    120. Owen

      Every time I look at Iggy I think to myself, if the NBA doesn’t work out he can always go act in The Last Kingdom or Vikings….

    121. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Knox is working on his handle and his shooting. He looks like a shooter, but the handle is still some years off.

      I’m really interested in the Barrett/Knox duo this season.

    122. Bruno Almeida

      RJ had a good lookinng 3, a tough rebound and this and one, it’s been pretty fine so far. On the eye test, he definitely looks like a guy who belongs, but he seems pretty nervous.

    123. dtrickey

      Iggy getting himself into some good spots. Just not hitting. Definitely doesn’t look shy on the court, which could be either good or bad ha ha

    124. Frank O.

      Dumb defense by Trier…not that he was going to keep Zion from the hoop.
      Zion is two Triers.

    125. Owen

      That was an amazing little shake by Zion to get free on that inbound play. His ability to create separation with both his burst and strength is remarkable. It’s pretty much impossible to keep a body on him. Not that we tried to hard there….

    126. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Yeah, I dunno how you let Zion slip to the basket there – I mean you’d think they did put him back in with under 5 seconds to play for a reason…

    127. BigBlueAL

      For being a really good 3pt shooter in college Iggy’s stroke so far looks horrible.

    128. Owen

      Awesome stuff by Mitch. Blocks Zion’s weak ass three and then gets the dunk….

      Not sure about the OBJ style frosted tips though….

    129. alsep73

      Knox as a potential 38% 3pt shooter this season… possible? Plausible?

      Definitely possible. Like I kept saying all last season, when the shots are falling for him, it looks and sounds beautiful in the way it does with some of the great pure shooters. And when they’re not, it still looks like they should. He’s still got to bulk up and work better on his body control, but I buy that he could be a more consistent marksman in year two.

    130. Owen

      And I think his Maple Mamba thing is a little weak sauce…

      Whatever, it’s summer league. Mitch is Mitching. That’s all I care about.

    131. KnickfaninNJ

      I have to say, I’d much rather watch summer league with Clyde and Breen commenting, even though Doris is pretty good

    132. Owen

      DJ- Totally agree with that. Mitch should be shutdown. Or given an extension. Or both.

      I want to love Doris Burke but I just can’t. She’s just ok for me.

    133. BigBlueAL

      RJ had a WIDE OPEN Knox when he drove but instead of passing he threw up an ugly looking fadeaway. Hope they show him that on film.

    134. alsep73

      I love Doris doing color commentary. She and Breen should be the lead team for ESPN/ABC, but unfortunately, she’s not an ex-player or ex-coach, so she has to do sideline reporting while Jackson says idiotic things and JVG becomes less insightful than he used to be.

    135. Jack Bauer

      “Could they shut the bleep up on espn “

      +1 I’m about to put it on mute. After 2 drinks they’re giving me a fucking headache with the constant blabbering during game action. Annoying

    136. BigBlueAL

      Knicks look awful now, would be embarrassing to lose this game with a 20 pt lead and Zion out for 2nd half.

    137. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      We are playing a lot of the Knicks starters and rotation players and they can barely cope with the New Orleans summer league team. I think the 2019/2020 tank officially started tonight. This is probably going to be a long ugly season. Anyone start looking at the 2020 draft class yet? Are there any inefficient scorers than don’t defend that Mills and Perry will love that we can draft?

    138. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      The “braintrust” did not look happy.

      I think you need spell check.

      The “brainlesstrust” did not look happy.

    139. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      Why is Mitchell Robinson playing against these scrubs?

      Why is Mitchell Robinson playing “with” these scrubs?

    140. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      lmao Doris:

      “The comparisons for he and Zion are for the rake-and-take, off-the-window, in the open floor downhill at you with the big body, and that’s problematic.”

      da fuq is this word salad

    141. BigBlueAL

      Yeah the Knicks Summer League GM (forgot his name) apparently stated publicly their goal is to win the Summer League so this is pretty sad. Also they don’t look coached at all, no offensive system at all to speak of.

    142. BJ

      Ha Jowles hard agree I think she meant problematic in terms of causing problems for defenses

    143. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Why the pessimism? RJ is leading in FGA which we all know is the key stat, the one that matters most.

    144. BJ

      Ha am I the only one when they said tremors I pictured an earthworm monster burrowing through the floor and swallowing Dolan.

    145. Frank O.

      Not exactly a “the Bronx is burning” or Al Michaels at Candlestick Park, moment, but interesting. Nonetheless.

    146. Grocer

      If Mitch is gonna play anymore summer league I wanna see him chucking up threes the whole time.

    147. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I was gonna post something, but then the room started shaking.
      JK47 did you feel that???

    148. Frank O.

      Okay. These folks are showing us they have no depth of knowledge.
      Unnerving seems to be the limit

    149. BigBlueAL

      Bite your tongue d-mar, I live in Miami and I’m hoping that never happens here lol.

    150. Name is Bron - James Bron

      7.1
      Wow

      Is Zion *that* heavy that he could have caused this from so far away?

    151. BigBlueAL

      David Griffin talking to Mills and deep down probably laughing and mocking Mills for his incompetence.

    152. bidiong

      So, historical fact and research I’ve read. Around every 250 years, there’s an earthquake in California that dumps a large portion of the coast into the ocean. There’s records from Japan in the late 1700s of a huge tsunami which correspond directly to before the US settled California. Later research showed that trees inland died due to salt water poisoning which can only be attributed to salt water running in from the ocean.

      Scary climate change right there. Get the boys out of Vegas. I know, “tin foil”

    153. chrisconley

      Maple Mamba earning his nickname tonight. Looked like Kobe as a rookie jacking straight garbage. No shame at all.

      However, I will say my fourth favorite play (the first three were all three blocks by Mitch on Zion with the third obviously being the best) was the RJ lob to Knox II. Very nice pass and though I’ve seen Knox dunk live at the Garden multiple times, I sometimes forget he can, given how weak around the rim he is. That layup he had in the first half that definitely should have been a dunk was cause for concern.

    154. djphan

      that wasnt a good game from rj but youre not gonna get efficiency in summer league… he did look very flat footed and there was a lot of tunnel vision going on… basically the worst version of him….

      hopefully it gets better…

    155. BigBlueAL

      Jud Buechler is the coach for Summer League and he was quoted after the game saying he’s gonna continue to encourage RJ to keep shooting. How about encouraging him to pass once in awhile instead??

    156. JK47

      I was gonna post something, but then the room started shaking.
      JK47 did you feel that???

      Yeah, definitely felt that one. My mother in law is staying with us for a couple of weeks and she’s been through two of these now and she is definitely ready to get back on a plane and get the eff outta here.

      It seemed like it lasted a full minute, which is an eternity to sit there while everything is shaking.

    157. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      that wasnt a good game from rj but youre not gonna get efficiency in summer league… he did look very flat footed and there was a lot of tunnel vision going on… basically the worst version of him….

      buckle up, gonna be a whole lot of this when he starts playing against real talent

    158. Donnie Walsh

      That was an amazing little shake by Zion to get free on that inbound play.

      Is that what it was? Yeesh, I still feel my house shaking.

      RJ’s shot looks, uh, kinda wobbly

      Everything looks wobbly after that, never trust the eye test during an earthquake!

    159. djphan

      summer leagues not really the place to learn about shot selection or passing… its more like an all star game type of basketball….

      it doesnt really count for much… u just hope that your draft pick doesnt look totally over matched…

    160. JK47

      Barrett can create well enough to draw double teams, but that doesn’t do a lot of good when his instinct is to just shoot the ball into the teeth of the double team. Maybe some of that “godson of Steve Nash” thing will kick in at some point.

    161. BJ

      I mean you’re not at summer league to implement a working offense and hold people accountable to it. It’s basically a glorified showcase. The players who are already getting minutes just have to not get injured, it’s the guys on the bubble fighting for a spot on a team or the G league that can prove anything here, and even that is largely meaningless… fun though especially when the basketball is good or the bad basketball gets stopped by the earth literally shifting away from it.

    162. nicos

      If that was R J’s reworked shooting form Drew Hanlen ain’t all he’s cracked up to be.

    163. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Summer League is basically the All-American showcases for a bunch of guys who get to be NBA-ish players for a couple weeks. The guaranteed-contract guys are playing for pride and the rest are fighting for a 2-way contract and a couple chartered flights before they head back to their alma maters for cushy sinecures or assistant assistant coaching jobs

    164. Brian Cronin

      Avery Bradley free. That would have been an interesting guy for the Knicks, but he’ll likely end up on a good team, I imagine.

    165. BigBlueAL

      Kawhi to the Clippers plus OKC trading Paul George to Clippers for Gallo, SGA and a ton of draft picks.

    166. BigBlueAL

      According to Woj: 4 unprotected 1st rd picks, 1 protected 1st rd pick and 2 pick swaps.

    167. JK47

      That seems like way too much for Paul George. Four unprotected firsts, an additional protected first, two pick swaps plus Shai Gilgeous-Alexander? Plus Gallo? The rest of that roster is looking mighty thin.

    168. BigBlueAL

      Clippers still have Beverly, Lou Williams, Harrell, Zubac, Shamet plus they’ve added Harkless and McGruder. I’m sure they’ll be able to sign another veteran or 2 for the minimum so they’ll be fine. The Lakers on the other hand are screwed although Danny Green announced he’s signing with them but for 2yr-30m which is pretty steep.

    169. Bruno Almeida

      @277

      Well it’s not for George, it’s for George + Kawhi, as Kawhi made it clear he would only join if George went together.

      It’s an absolute crazy amount of assets to give up, but I guess that’s why the Clippers have been expertly gathering them… if they play their cards right, they have both Kawhi and PG for the next 4 years so those picks aren’t very valuable.

      It’s an insane amount to pay for anyone, but I think it’s a huge win for the Clippers, damn. A Beverley / George / Leonard frontline might be actually impossible to score against.

    170. BigBlueAL

      Oh boy, the Westbrook trade rumors have begun and of course the Knicks are being mentioned…..

    171. Ingmarrrr

      @279 I think four picks stretch over a minimum of 8 years so the later ones could be amazing.

    172. Bruno Almeida

      @281

      It could be, but if I recall correctly the Clippers have two Miami first rounders (2021 and 23) and one from the Sixers in 2020. I haven’t seen confirmation yet of what picks have been sent, but they could have sent something like their own 2020, 22, 24 protected then a Miami pick and the Sixers pick for example.

    173. Brian Cronin

      I was talking with my brother earlier tonight and we were trying to figure out why Kawhi was taking such a long time and I explained to him that I think the issue was that Kawhi wanted to be A. The top guy on the team, B. play for a winner and C. play in Los Angeles and it was very difficult to get any of the three teams in play for him (Clippers, Lakers and Raptors) to meet all three of those qualifications. You could make the argument that, at this point in their respective careers, Leonard could be “the man” on the Lakers even with Lebron and Davis there, but it would be a stretch (is Lebron really ready to be mid-1980s Kareem to Kawhi’s Magic?) and the problem with the Clippers was that even with him they weren’t built to win right now and the problem with the Raptors was that clearly Kawhi wanted to play in Los Angeles. So I could see why it was taking him so long to decide. Well, West clearly decided to fix the problem with the Clippers being ready to win. Kawhi, George, Beverly, Williams, Harrell, Zubac, Harkless and whoever they add for the room and/or the minimum is a very good team. And they have one of the best coaches in the game coaching them. So yeah, it now makes perfect sense why Kawhi was holding out for so long.

      I’m sad for Toronto a bit, but fuck ’em, they won a goddamn title. I’m happy for the NBA as a whole. There are suddenly a whole lot of really good teams out there that could legitimately win a title next year. It’s been a long ass time since we could say that. The Western Conference playoffs next year are going to be amazing.

    174. Brian Cronin

      And Mills and Perry, pretty please don’t trade for Russell Westbrook. Pretty please!

    175. Brian Cronin

      Not for nothing, but with Danny Green now signing for $15 million, the list of “good players who you could sign three of them instead of signing one max guy,” which included names like:

      Darren Collison
      Ricky Rubio
      Danny Green
      Robert Covington (who isn’t a free agent)
      DeAndre Jordan
      Paul Millsap

      went for:

      Weird retirement
      $17 million
      $15 million
      Again, not a free agent
      $10 million
      $30 million option picked up

      In other words, you can’t sign three good third tier veterans for $32 million. The Knicks couldn’t even sign five good players period for $70 million. ;)

    176. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Kawhi Leonard: Fun Guy

      Russell Westbrook: Not-as-fun Guy.

      I can’t see the same Knicks front office who only believed Kawhi and KD were worth the max as a front office that would trade real assets for Russell Westbrook. You know who I could see doing that? The Miami Heat.

    177. english_knick

      1) we’re so trading for Russ. Luckily there’s an inbuilt cooking off period as pretty sure we can’t match salaries now until we can trade the new guys…

      2) 4 unprotected 1rps, a protected 1rp, 2 swaps and a great young prospect, plus an expiring? That is a phenomenal get for OKC

    178. yellowboy90

      Pat Beverley, Paul George, and Kawai is a great trio of defenders. That’s prety scary

    179. bobneptune

      Jerry West is the joint.

      But the Laker are royally fucked now with a declining LeBron forced to play big minutes for a thin team with no way to get better.

      AD ain’t sticking around for that shit show….. hello AD…. hello Giannis :-)

      Our GM doesn’t look so silly now with all this flexibility/picks/young players…. just sit chilly…..

    180. Early Bird

      Five 1sts for Kawhi, PG, & a legit shot at the title. LAC got to feel good after going the distance with GS then adding these two. But, DAMN!!

    181. Brian Cronin

      Our GM doesn’t look so silly now with all this flexibility/picks/young players…. just sit chilly…..

      They’d have flexibility, more picks and the same amount of young players if they had just rented their cap space. So, I’m sticking with them still looking silly (which, as everyone else has corrected noted, is still a step up from looking like complete morons like during Phil’s era).

    182. Brian Cronin

      I mean, one of the picks the Clippers used to get George was a pick that they literally just got this offseason by renting out cap room!

    183. Frank

      Man, what a haul for Presti.
      Man, the Clips are going to be plenty interesting. Good luck scoring on those 3 perimeter defenders. If they can find any rim protection at all (do they have the room exception left?)…

    184. BJ

      Wait can someone explain all the Russ hate? I get that he’s starting to decline but he’s still a very good player who should outplay his contract. Why wouldn’t the Knicks want him?

    185. Brian Cronin

      do they have the room exception left?

      They do, but legit rim protection guys tend not to still be available at this point in the offseason, right? I mean, I guess they could get an ancient Tyson Chandler…

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