Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, August 19, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.05.07)

  • [Sports Illustrated] NBA 2020 Title Odds: Vegas Sportsbook Has Knicks, Clippers as Surprising Contenders
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 8:32:56 PM)

    Only three Eastern Conference teams currently have better 2020 title odds than the Knicks. 

  • [NYTimes] Bucks 113, Celtics 101 | Milwaukee leads series, 3-1: Bucks One Game Short of Conference Finals After Beating Celtics
    (Tuesday, May 07, 2019 2:16:00 AM)

    Giannis Antetokounmpo scored 39 points in Game 4, helping Milwaukee take a 3-1 lead in their semifinal series against Boston. Kyrie Irving’s shooting woes continued.

  • [NYPost] Kevin Knox’s Knicks transformation is underway
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 9:38:32 PM)

    The mission to make Knicks forward Kevin Knox better next season has begun. Knicks coach David Fizdale revealed he spent all of last week with the Knicks’ 2018 lottery pick in the team’s Tarrytown facility working on elements of the 6-foot-9 forward’s game. Fizdale had wanted the players to take three weeks off after the…

  • [NYPost] Unrelenting Knicks heckles briefly crack Kevin Durant
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 9:06:04 PM)

    The Knicks buzz is following Kevin Durant everywhere. As Durant’s Warriors lost Game 4 to the Rockets 112-108 in Houston on Monday to even their best-of-seven series – moving him two losses closer to free agency this summer –  one relentless Rockets fan wouldn’t let him hear the end of it. The fan could be…

  • [NYPost] I won’t ask for another Knicks lottery ‘fix,’ but…
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 7:17:40 PM)

    Look: For the record, I am NOT going to urge Adam Silver to commit fraud next Tuesday night in Chicago, when the NBA conducts its draft lottery. (Not in so many words, anyway.) That would be hard to justify. That would be a hard thing for a conscience to live with, especially one that endured…

  • [NYPost] ESPN making changes to NBA draft lottery coverage
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 10:31:39 AM)

    One of the biggest nights in Knicks’ franchise history will have a different look to it on ESPN. The network is throwing more resources at the NBA draft lottery on May 14, a night that will be centered on who will get the No. 1 pick and the ability to draft Duke star Zion Williamson….

  • [SNY Knicks] Why Knicks’ David Fizdale is impressed with Kevin Knox early this offseason
    (Monday, May 06, 2019 11:13:12 PM)

    Even though the Knicks finished with the worst record in the NBA, head coach David Fizdale still plans on bringing his young players to the conference finals.

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    141 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.05.07)

    1. GoNYGoNYGo Going for the tank

      Wow. It wasn’t until after midnight that KB switched back to basketball!

      I’m not a big Kyrie fan. I know that he’s a hot name out there for the Knicks and is paired with Durant, but I much rather see Kawhi paired with Durant. Both are amazing 2-way players. We have a younger PG in Dennis Smith already on the team and I’m not sold on Kyrie’s head or defense.

      And I asked a question that never got an answer. Who do you guys think are the fallbacks at 4 & 5 if we don’t land a top-3 lottery pick?

    2. Brian Cronin

      I just don’t see Kawhi and KD coming together. I’d be more than happy with that if it happened, but I think Kawhi wants his own team.

    3. Brian Cronin

      Also, I have no idea what you saw in Smith that would have him play any sort of role in who comes here next season.

      I don’t have anything against DSJ, but he’s not someone that you exactly plan around, ya know?

    4. alsep73

      Okay, so let’s extend it out. Which free agent or trade target is 1)the ideal sidekick to Durant, and 2)a realistic possibility to come here? I agree with Brian that Kawhi wants his own team, probably with the Clips. Klay isn’t likely to leave Golden State, and I suspect he’d go to the Lakers if he did. Davis would be wonderful but would cost a ton in both salary and trade capital. So if not Kyrie, then who?

    5. vincoug

      And I asked a question that never got an answer. Who do you guys think are the fallbacks at 4 & 5 if we don’t land a top-3 lottery pick?

      Assuming the top 3 are Zion, RJ, and Ja in some order my next best prospects are Bol Bol and pick a name out of a hat.

    6. Hubert

      The other thing to consider re: Kyrie is that if we don’t get Zion, there looks to be two extremely good PG prospects in the top 4. Darius Garland didn’t have the chance to play many games, but scouts are very high on him and the reports seem to indicate he’s a PG we’d be lucky to get at 4. If what I read is accurate, I’d take him over Barrett (who I see more as a trade chip than a player I want on a Durant-led team).

      I’d be inclined to think that Smith, Morant or Garland, and a veteran minimum guy could sufficiently hold down the PG position and $32.7mm could be better spent on multiple two-way veterans. But like Brian said, if that’s what Durant wants, then we’ll pay the Kyrie tax.

    7. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      I’m ok with DSJ moving forward. I think he’ll be good..not Kyrie level good..but he looks to get his teammates involved alot more than I expected. He’s young. His first season showed promise, then Luka came in for season 2 and threw him off a little. Honestly, I’d rather go with DSJ and Morant at the point than count on Kyrie leading the team out of the doldrums. That said, it would be incredibly stupid to not go after Kyrie if you have a serious chance. Going into next season, I’d rather have Kyrie than KD- but I’m crazy. I just see KD playing alot of the 4 if we don’t land Zion..I’m not too sure how well that will work with him carrying such a heavy load on offense.

      Random but Knicks related..
      One of my favorite Knicks memories is when we had MWP and we were playing Toronto, and MWP gave “Psycho T” a shove lol. Remember how he was like “who tf?! Imma fuck somebody..oh! H-hey bro how u doin my guy?” when he turned around and saw MWP there? HILARIOUS

    8. Brian Cronin

      So if not Kyrie, then who?

      Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Kemba is really the only other sort of reasonable possibility and he’s not as good as Kyrie. So Kyrie is basically the only other guy that makes sense (presuming that Durant wants to be paired with another max guy, which I think is a fair presumption).

    9. Hubert

      So if not Kyrie, then who?

      I’m beating a dead horse, so I’ll be brief. But if you dump Frank, Trier, and Lance, you’ve got approximately $37mm available with the cap hold for the #2 pick and 5 empty roster penalties accounted for.

      Durant seems to want to move to the ball dominant, primary ball handler role that’s going to unleash the full range of his talents. I think spending $37mm on the likes of DeAndre Jordan, Danny Green, and Paul Millsap (whose option I expect to be declined) will take you a lot further in the next 2 years than a max contract for Kyrie will.

    10. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      I like that idea Hubert, but I would like to retain as much young talent as possible. Can’t have it both ways so fuck it- let’s go get those rings for Tracy Morgan! That would be a strong team

    11. Hubert

      Who do you guys think are the fallbacks at 4 & 5 if we don’t land a top-3 lottery pick?

      I touched on it above, but I think we’ll all gravitate towards Garland by the time the draft comes around.

      The problem is he didn’t play enough. But his profile fits that of the ideal modern NBA PG.

    12. DS

      I just don’t see Kawhi and KD coming together. I’d be more than happy with that if it happened, but I think Kawhi wants his own team.

      Agree except that I actually think the opportunity to play with KD is the only hypothetical advantage the Knicks could have over the Clippers. L.A. is his home town, Doc, coming off a playoff season, plenty of cap space, better ownership, Jerry West (?).

    13. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Clarke is obviously the choice at #4 or #5, IMO. He’s a sure thing next to Mitch.

    14. DS

      Clarke is obviously the choice at #4 or #5, IMO. He’s a sure thing next to Mitch.

      Agreed. Doesn’t the idea of two players who currently can’t shoot 3’s make you wince a little, though?

    15. Zippy Le Pin

      So I’ll toss this out there, cringing at the potential for ban-hammer (or at least social ostracism).

      I just keep landing on the fact that I’d much rather have Kemba than Kyrie. I put their numbers up against each other and there’s no question whatsoever that Kyrie really is better on almost every measure (yes we know that but I had to double-check). But it’s a little bit the difference between fantastic and effing fantastic.

      Someone posted that Kyrie has Melo in him, and while that’s not quite right, even without Kyrie’s moronic statements there’s something about his game that annoys the hell out of me. I’m sure they’re both great people, but on the court I always find myself rooting for Kemba and against Kyrie (and that’s even before the Celtics).

      Grumpy Kevin and stoic Kemba would be a fun team to cheer for. Grumpy Kevin and annoying Kyrie would be, if I hadn’t drunk the NYK kool-aid a long time ago, a team I’d love to hate.

      Which gets to a point about many of the arguments on this blog — some come (with 20 years of PTSD) just wanting a good, fun team they can root for; some want any team that can compete for a ring every year; and some believe success can only be measured by a ring. All completely reasonable positions, but they often lead to different conclusions.

    16. Early Bird

      I don’t know much about Bol bol’s injury, but he appears to have one of the highest ceilings. But, I’m not sure how he’ll adjust.

      Then some people like Culver. I want to say Brandon Clarke is up there depending on who you talk to. But, there’s no surefire pick at 4 or 5.

      I’d rather grab Kawhi, I think everyone would, but Kyrie seems more likely and is constantly linked to KD. It’s more expectation than preference.

      I like Julius Randle, but I don’t know if he’ll be worth what he gets paid or fits into Durant’s timeline. He needs to make a leap AND allow us to bring in a 3rd guy to make it close to worthwhile.

    17. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Agreed. Doesn’t the idea of two players who currently can’t shoot 3’s make you wince a little, though?

      Not really. I’ve seen the Dubs trot out combos of Looney, Bogut, McGee, Green, Iguodala and Livingston for years now with great success. Granted they have three of the best distance shooters ever to play the game, but Clarke is not the paint-clogger that he’s being cast as. He has an explosive first move inside, so it’s not like he’s a behemoth who’s going to call for the ball with his ass jammed into his defender a la Shaq.

      This is a guy tailor-made for transition buckets, cleaning the glass and eating up slow players with athletic post play. I love Mitch but he’s a dunk-and-D guy right now. There’s room for more offense in the paint, and I also am optimistic that he can figure out a corner 3. I love the way he’s completely rebuilt his shot since SJSU.

      I posted this awhile back, but look at his shot at SJSU vs. at Gonzaga. I can’t think of a player who changed his jumper form this much and with such an improvement in ye olde eye test–

      Before:

      https://twitter.com/colezwicker/status/1036793892572549120

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmN6VdOU4AA0jLm.jpg:large

      After:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kCT1AMFAtM&t=1m38s

      Great ball arc and wrist follow through.

    18. Hubert

      There’s no way I’m even considering Bol with a top 5 pick. I’d rank the top 5 Zion, Morant, Barrett, Garland, Clarke. Barrett is the player I like the least, but I think he’d have the highest trade value. Culver is the guy our brass would likely take ahead of Clarke if we had the 5th pick.

    19. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Jalen Rose on Kyrie.

      https://thebiglead.com/2019/05/07/jalen-rose-kyrie-irving-teammate/

      “He’s done in Boston. His teammates are going to help him pack”.

      I more or less agree with what Jalen is saying. Kyrie is a great offensive player, but he’s a bit of a ball stopper at times on a team that plays better with ball and player movement. He’s also not especially good on defense. There’s been evidence for awhile that he doesn’t make the Celtics all that much better.

      The more I think about him as player and add injury risk on top of it, the more I think I’d prefer Kemba over Kyrie if we are going to bring in a guard to play with Durant. If Kemba is not the answer either, maybe we need to think in a completely different way about who to add to Durant if he wants to come to NY.

    20. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @15

      I didn’t read your post until after I made mine. I agree with you. There’s something about him I don’t like over and above some of his attributes as a player that are not stylistically my cup of tea.

    21. thenoblefacehumper

      Paul Millsap’s option isn’t going to be declined unless he already has agreed to re-sign with Denver for more years and a lower AAV. Contending teams tend to not hemorrhage key rotation players for no reason.

    22. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      I kind of liked what I saw of De’Andre Hunter in the limited time I watched college basketball. I don’t think he’s too much of a reach at #4 or #5.

    23. ptmilo

      another plan B is conley if his trade value ends up being very low aside from salary relief. he’s turning 32 and isn’t really a second star, but he still might be better than some alternatives bc it’s only two years of salary risk. and he’s maybe a better fit with a great scorer than someone like kemba and is also easy to root for.

    24. GoNYGoNYGo Going for the tank

      @2/3 – My point about DSmith Jr. is that he’s not a zero. No, he’s not the very best, but until we get a young PG that can really ball, there are other areas to fix. We seem to have a lot of guard choices but most are 2-guards. Smith is young and has upside. Our draft position will dictate that. If we end up picking 4/5, I agree that PG’s are at the top of the food chain in the draft.

      I’m not sold on Kahwi wanting his own team. I think he has that up in Toronto where it’s Kawhi and a bunch of good role players. If he stays there, then you’re probably right. Otherwise, pairing with Durant is a natural fit.

      One idea I heard on the radio was the idea of packaging up a #1 and some driftwood to trade for Anthony Davis. Could we land Durant, AD and Kyrie/Kemba? Is that even doable?

    25. thenoblefacehumper

      Kyrie has had a pretty miserable series, both by the numbers and perhaps even more so by the eye test.

      Naturally, that’s causing some people to forget that this guy has been one of the NBA’s best scorers over the past few seasons and has developed into a pretty damn good playmaker too.

      It’s one thing to just admit you don’t like the guy and for that reason you’d rather root for Kemba or Green/Millsap (which isn’t happening) or whoever. I find his personality pretty grating, and haven’t liked some things I’ve seen this series from a body language perspective.

      But if we’re concerned with winning the highest number of basketball games possible, the 27 year old coming off his second straight 6+ BPM season is by far the most logical choice. This is so obvious to me that I think the only reason people are entertaining other options is because his personality and performance in the series are, understandably, fresh on everyone’s minds.

    26. Hubert

      Paul Millsap’s option isn’t going to be declined unless he already has agreed to re-sign with Denver for more years and a lower AAV. Contending teams tend to not hemorrhage key rotation players for no reason.

      I’ve gone over this with you before. You speak on absolutely no authority. Your guess would be as good as mine, except your foundation is unsound, so it’s actually not.

      Contending teams CONSTANTLY hemorrhage key player for financial reasons. It happens literally all the time, in every sport around the world.

    27. swiftandabundant

      I have my reservations about Kyrie too but one thing I keep reminding myself is that Kyrie never wanted to go to Boston in the first place. When he requested out of Cleveland, Boston was not one of the teams he stated that he wanted to go to and The Knicks were. Now you might question him not wanting to go to a good team, but its not all about basketball for these guys, especially all stars who have all ready won a championship. Boston is not everyone’s cup of tea (see what I did there?)

      So in some ways the last two seasons have been seasons of exile for him. Maybe he’s thought about staying at times but ultimately its not where he wants to be and The Knicks and NYC possibly are.

      So that could make a huge difference as far as his attitude goes. Just a thought.

      As far as trading the pick if we land the number one. NO. FUCKING. WAY. Draft Zion. Get KD and Kyrie/Kemba and call it a DAY! AD might make us better in year one and maybe gives us a championship window the first two seasons but drafting Zion means we can be really good right away with KD and Kyrie and then continue to be good with Zion after those guys get old. Plus as they age, Zion can naturally take over.

      Personally I would much rather have a 10 year window of being a really good playoff team than a 3 year window of a possible championship, which is still not guaranteed.

    28. thenoblefacehumper

      I’ve gone over this with you before. You speak on absolute no authority. Your guess would be as good as mine, except your foundation is unsound, so it’s actually not.

      If you’re speaking painfully literally, sure, I do not have a source in the Denver Nuggets organization. But I am well-aware of the second thing I said which I’ll reiterate; legitimate contenders are perfectly happy to make what are technically overpayments if it means keeping their core together.

      It’s not happening, and that’s a good thing because investing big money in a few 30 somethings would be a demonstrably worse idea than simply signing the 27 year old superstar.

    29. Hubert

      legitimate contenders are perfectly happy to make what are technically overpayments if it means keeping their core together.

      Come on, man. This is a preposterous statement. Do you know how many million examples there must be of a contending team deciding to let a key contributor go because he’s too expensive? And $30mm isn’t even a little overpay. It’s massive.

      The exact team we’re talking about, the Denver Nuggets, traded Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, AND a first round pick to the Nets for Isiah Whitehead, who they promptly waived. This was 10 months ago. They did that just to avoid paying a few million dollars of luxury tax, something they haven’t done since 2010.

      The same ownership group, the Kroenke family, is notorious in London for selling off Arsenal’s best players year after year. This world in which contending teams are happy to piss away money just because they’re contenders is not real. Even in uncapped sports like baseball we’re seeing rich contending teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs hemorrhage valuable players for financial reasons.

      It’s not at all likely that a famously cheap team would pay 33 year old Paul Millsap $30mm just because they made the second round of the playoffs.

    30. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @25

      I can’t speak for other people. I agree that Kyrie is a great offensive player. However, the evidence that his on court value to the Celtics is less than his theoretical boxscore contribution has been available and discussed by Celtics fan all year. Some people probably overstate the case by pointing to Boston’s record when he’s out. But over and above that you can see the style change . There’s also evidence from last year in the playoffs.

      To me, it has little do to with the last 4 games. The last 4 games are more evidence of what I was already thinking about him. He reduces overall ball movement for that team and when he’s not scoring well he’s not adding much.

      When he’s out, the play making doesn’t take a total nosedive. The ball moves more, assists get distributed among more players, and the defense is probably better.

      So are they better off with him than without him?

      Definitely with him, but he’s not adding superstar value to that team. He’s partially just taking play making usage away from other players and hurting the defense relative to players on the bench unless he’s lighting it up scoring.

    31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The Nuggets have an interesting situation on their hands. First off, Millsap puts them $11M over the cap next year. Without him, they have $19M in space. That’s enough for a very good player, which they would likely lock in for a multiyear as Jamal Murray will probably get offered an extension as soon as they figure out what to do with the rest of their space.

      Another option is to let Millsap and Plumlee come off the books at the end of 2020 and use the $60M+ in cap space to sign big-money UFAs and then lock in Murray over the cap with a Bird extension.

      So while I agree with tnfh that it’s unusual for a Conference Finals contender to simply give up a notable starter to save a few bucks, the Nuggets actually have some alternative uses for that cap space in either 2019-20 or 2020-21.

    32. GoNYGoNYGo Going for the tank

      @27 – I said “a #1” not THE overall #1. We have 7 #1 picks in the next 5 years. I think we can give one of them (or even 2?) for AD if we then have the ability to sign him.

      Yeah. If we get either the #1 or #2 pick I’m not trading. (I think Ja’s a really nice consolation prize).

    33. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      If they trade any pick that can yield Zion or Morant I will lose my fucking shit

    34. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      The Nuggets have another issue. Until Milsap was willing to sign there, they had a difficult time attracting and keeping the top free agents even when they had a good team. That’s why they paid Milsap so much. If they eventually open up a lot more space, do star players flock there to play with Jokic and Murray or are they back to the drawing board with the draft trying to find value later in the 1st round?

    35. Hubert

      They’re definitely in an interesting spot. I think they should pick up Millsap’s option. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume they’re a lock to behave like the Golden State Warriors. It’s not unusual at all for contending teams to let starters go to save a few bucks. We saw Houston drop two key guys in Ariza and Mbuh a Moate just last summer.

    36. english_knick

      I’m not sold we should spend max money on a pg at all – Kyrie or kemba. A lot of the Durant chat is that he wants to handle the ball and initiate the offense more – to show he’s the complete player. If so, a max of will be like smith when doncic turned up, relegated to being a lesser off-ball player. KD seems to want to play with Kyrie but then we know players aren’t always good team builders.

      I’d LOVE for the second guy to be Kawhi but I agree that seems unlikely. I’d want to at least consider Middleton. He plays a complementary position to KD as a 2-3 to KDs 3-4. He is a plus defender who can score in a variety of ways. Alongside Mitch, hopefully Zion and KD he’d be part of a formidable 2-way lineup. The max for 28-yr-old Middleton is super-steep but is maybe a better investment than in Kyrie?

    37. ClashFan

      Well, if the whispers are accurate, KD may want to play with Kyrie. They might end up being a package deal.

      I hope not. Like some of you, I’m not a fan of Kyrie. I won’t blame the Knicks at all if he is signed to pair with KD, though. Kawhi would be fantastic, of course.

      Hey, notice all these guys’ first names start with a K? And Knicks does, too. The stars are aligning!

    38. Hubert

      This from Kyrie after Game 3 is funny:

      “It’s really just about being efficient, especially the rest of this series. From this point on I don’t think you’ll see another 8 for 22 or any missed layups or looking for the refs for calls or anything like that.”

      He went 7-22 in game 4 :)

      I’m trying to enjoy this Bucks-Celtics series as much as possible, but the reality is a lot of these problems (Kyrie’s attitude, Giannis’ unstoppable-ness) might be ours soon if we get what we hope for.

      Of course, they’d be the best “problems” we’ve had in a very long time.

    39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The Nuggets have another issue. Until Milsap was willing to sign there, they had a difficult time attracting and keeping the top free agents even when they had a good team.

      Like who? They traded away Iggy. They traded away Nene. They traded away Carmelo. They let Kenyon Martin walk because he was 33 and immediately turned into a pumpkin. They traded for Billups and then traded him away with Carmelo. They lost J.R. Smith because of the lockout and his failure to secure an opt-out clause with the Zhejiang Golden Bulls, on top of the fact that George Karl fucking hated coaching the guy.

      As far as signing big-name free agents, this is also the case for about 20 other NBA teams.

      It seems terribly implausible to believe that Millsap is the one who opens the floodgates for marquee free agents. Remember when Kevin Garnett turned the lowly Wolves into perennial contenders? How many big-name FAs did they sign before he jumped ship to Boston? Remember when MJ and Pippen turned the Bulls into the greatest dynasty in a generation and then the Bulls became one of the worst teams in the league for nearly a decade, signing almost nothing of value over that time, and certainly no franchise-changing stars?

      That’s why they paid Milsap so much. If they eventually open up a lot more space, do star players flock there to play with Jokic and Murray or are they back to the drawing board with the draft trying to find value later in the 1st round?

      So you’re telling me that the Nuggets took themselves over the cap for three consecutive years so that, after Millsap left the roster, they would be able to tell free agents, “Hey, did you know four-time All-Star and 2015-16 Defensive 2nd Teamer Paul Millsap deliberately chose to play here?”

      That’s the thirstiest shit I’ve ever heard, and completely implausible. Like showing a picture of your ex to your first date, being like, “Hey, see? I had a winning culture here.”

    40. DS

      I posted this awhile back, but look at his shot at SJSU vs. at Gonzaga. I can’t think of a player who changed his jumper form this much and with such an improvement in ye olde eye test–

      Before:

      https://twitter.com/colezwicker/status/1036793892572549120

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmN6VdOU4AA0jLm.jpg:large

      After:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kCT1AMFAtM&t=1m38s

      Great ball arc and wrist follow through.

      Wow, it’s come a long way since that hideous shot put release. The new shot actually reminds a little of Oak’s. Not very fluid but, like you said nice “ball arc and wrist follow through.”

    41. bobneptune

      Boy do the Warriors have big decisions to make assuming KD leaves. Do the let Klay walk? Do the extend Green in two years? With their complimentary pieces veritable toast (AI, SL) do they want to pay luxury tax for the next 6 years for a 45-50 win team???

      Orrrrrr…. do they trade off Steph and Green for 5 or so #1’s and park liabilities for more picks into the cap void and rework the team for a decade plus in 2-3 years? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

      A lot of GM’s are going to have their thinking caps on after the draft lottery when things crystallize a bit.

    42. Owen

      That’s the thirstiest shit I’ve ever heard, and completely implausible. Like showing a picture of your ex to your first date, being like, “Hey, see? I had a winning culture here.”

      Pure Jowles.

    43. Hubert

      That’s the thirstiest shit I’ve ever heard, and completely implausible. Like showing a picture of your ex to your first date, being like, “Hey, see? I had a winning culture here.”

      That’s not what he said at all. You’re intentionally misrepresenting his position so you can laugh at him.

    44. Hubert

      Boy do the Warriors have big decisions to make assuming KD leaves. Do the let Klay walk? Do the extend Green in two years? With their complimentary pieces veritable toast (AI, SL) do they want to pay luxury tax for the next 6 years for a 45-50 win team???

      Orrrrrr…. do they trade off Steph and Green for 5 or so #1’s and park liabilities for more picks into the cap void and rework the team for a decade plus in 2-3 years? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

      A lot of GM’s are going to have their thinking caps on after the draft lottery when things crystallize a bit.

      I would think, with their new arena and high-priced suites, they overpay Klay to keep their original core together, then kick the can down the road on the Draymond decision.

    45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      That’s not what he said at all. You’re intentionally misrepresenting his position so you can laugh at him.

      Okay, let me try to read this again–

      The Nuggets have another issue. Until Milsap was willing to sign there, they had a difficult time attracting and keeping the top free agents even when they had a good team. That’s why they paid Milsap so much.

      Are you saying that he’s saying they had to overpay Millsap just to get him to show up?

    46. Bruno Almeida

      There’s zero chance the Warriors grade Steph, but I think there’s a higher than zero chance they let Thompson go. There have been sayings that he will leave unless he’s offered a max, and there’s no reason to put this out there in the media if the Warriors has already told him he’ll be offered a max.

      The problem is that they still wouldn’t have a max slot even if both of them leave, unless they can get rid of Iguodala and Livingston as well, which should be much harder. My guess is that the Warriors are throwing money at Klay and trying to keep it going for as long as possible.

    47. KJG

      Is there any consensus here that Kemba doesn’t come with the emotional issues that Kyrie seems to have… and therefore might be “better” just because?

    48. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The word “until” suggest that Millsap is an agent of change in the FO’s ability to attract and keep FAs.

      I understand we’re all shooting from the hip on word choice here and are prone to errors in usage, but my reading of the post as written is not a deliberate misinterpretation. If he meant that Denver was and still are a challenging destination to attract FAs to, I largely agree. But that’s not what I read from that sentence.

    49. Hubert

      He made two points:

      1. He mentioned Denver’s well documented, decades old problem attracting free agents and retaining key players. That is why they had to overpay Millsap. A very simple google search provides support to his claim:

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelrush/2018/08/03/paul-millsaps-third-year-team-option-gives-nuggets-flexibility-in-2019/#f99ee04682f6

      2. He then pondered if the presence of Jokic (one of the youngest, best, most fun players in the entire league), along with a solid supporting player in Murray, would be enough to finally make Denver a more attractive place to play.

      The way you divided his statement made it seem like he was implying that they paid Millsap extra money so that it would set a precedent going forward that would attract free agents.

    50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Orrrrrr…. do they trade off Steph and Green for 5 or so #1’s and park liabilities for more picks into the cap void and rework the team for a decade plus in 2-3 years? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

      In the world of fantasy GMing, this probably makes sense from a value perspective. You could have a totally clean slate and a motherfucking shitton of picks to rebuild from the ground up. I bet 5 firsts would be on the low end if they S&Ted Green and Thompson and also moved Curry. I think Curry alone is worth 3 unprotected firsts right now to a team like the Jazz.

      For Bob Myers, it means moving into their privately-financed, $1 billion arena with a 15-win team and exactly zero of their dynasty’s superstars there to raise the banners during opening night. It would be career suicide. Exactly 0% chance of that happening.

    51. JK47

      Kyrie is not having a good series, but the Bucks are an elite defensive team, easily the best defensive team in the NBA. They’re #1 in defensive eFG%, FT/FGA and DRB%. That is a nasty defense.

      Does anybody think the Celtics fare any better with Kemba instead of Kyrie? Because I don’t.

    52. DRed

      Middleton is a somewhat above average player in his prime. He’s a last piece of the puzzle kind of guy you add to take your team from 57 wins to 61 wins. He’s not a bum, but on a max he’d be a serious overpay.

    53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Until Milsap was willing to sign there, they had a difficult time attracting and keeping the top free agents even when they had a good team.

      Let me try a similar sentence construction, Hubert. Tell me what it implies.

      Until I tried Duolingo, I had a difficult time learning Spanish even when I studied hard.

    54. glidepath

      Until Milsap was willing to sign there, they had a difficult time attracting and keeping the top free agents even when they had a good team.

      Let me try a similar sentence construction, Hubert. Tell me what it implies.

      Until I tried Duolingo, I had a difficult time learning Spanish even when I studied hard.

      This is petty. Will your aggressive urges really not be sated until you feel like you’ve beaten up a stranger over the internet?

    55. Hubert

      I see where you’re coming from. But if I said “until I met my wife, I had a hard time attracting women”, it could just mean I was able to attract one woman, not that I had turned myself into a ladies man capable of attracting dozens more.

      Are you saying that he’s saying they had to overpay Millsap just to get him to show up?

      Yes.

      I don’t mean to jump on you. Seems like an honest misunderstanding now that I see where you’re coming from. I’ve just become sensitive to everyone jumping on misreadings. Seems to always be Strat, too.

    56. glidepath

      For the record, I wasn’t admonishing you Jowles; I just wanted somebody to diagram that sentence

    57. ptmilo

      the best part about the theknickswall.com game is when you try to make kp an offer and it berates you for low self esteem

    58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I see where you’re coming from. But if I said “until I met my wife, I had a hard time attracting women”, it could just mean I was able to attract one woman, not that I had turned myself into a ladies man capable of attracting dozens more.

      That’s fair, and I see how someone would read the ambiguity in the other direction. Not knocking strat’s ability to form a lucid thought, just that this particular sentence was open to this particular reading.

      This is petty. Will your aggressive urges really not be sated until you feel like you’ve beaten up a stranger over the internet?

      correct

    59. Zippy Le Pin

      ‘Does anybody think the Celtics fare any better with Kemba instead of Kyrie? Because I don’t.’

      Great question. One can also flip it around — does anybody think the Celtics fare any worse with Kemba instead of Kyrie? I honestly have no clue.

      As I said, Kyrie’s definitely a better player by most statistical measures. How much better once you weigh all the other factors is the question (god I sound like Strat). For me personally, it feels close enough that the ‘just don’t like him’ factor is enough to push me onto the other side.

    60. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Also, this comes on the heels of years of arguments about whether Carmelo and Amar’e were valuable contracts, despite the lack of actual winning production, for providing legitimacy to the Knicks that they previously didn’t have. I have a bit of PTSD from the “players join superstars” angle, as a staunch defender of the argument “players join winning teams that can offer them money, or legendary teams that can offer rings, or players play with LeBron for all of the above.”

    61. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Kyrie is two years younger, too. Can we add that to the calculus?

      (I think Kyrie is substantially better than Kemba. I’m not willing to budge on that due to a poor playoff series performance.)

    62. thenamestsam

      If Durant leaves, but Klay stays, 100% the Warriors run it back and try to recapture the magic of the 14-15 and 15-16 teams. Guys are a couple years older, and their collection of role players has really eroded over the past few years such that I don’t think they’d be title favorites certainly, but they’d still be in the mix, and there’s no way you flush that preemptively moving into a new building. You don’t have any incentive to do so anyway – Curry is the gem trade-value wise and he’s signed long-term and Klay will still be tradeable on whatever deal you give him (if not for significant value possibly) plus you’re still one diamond-in-the-rough wing away from being a title team in my opinion. If they’re the 5 seed and out in the first round with that group next year then you reevaluate at that point.

      If Klay leaves by choice as well (which I can’t see to be honest, but still a fun thought experiment) is where things get really interesting for them. They’d still be well short of a max slot and Curry/Dray/Iggy/a $15M free agent is definitely not a championship core or anything close to it. That’s the situation where you have to at least consider some kind of rebuild, although I still would be shocked if they dealt Curry.

    63. Hubert

      Also, this comes on the heels of years of arguments about whether Carmelo and Amar’e were valuable contracts, despite the lack of actual winning production, for providing legitimacy to the Knicks that they previously didn’t have. I have a bit of PTSD from the “players join superstars” angle, as a staunch defender of the argument “players join winning teams that can offer them money, or legendary teams that can offer rings, or players play with LeBron for all of the above.”

      I had forgotten about that. Now I have to sweat it out in case Strat does come back and say this is exactly what he meant.

      Please, Strat, don’t do me like that.

      By the way, I played the Knicks Wall game, drafted Zion and got rejected by all the free agents. You know what? As much as I love me some Durant, that’s probably my preferred outcome this offseason.

    64. Hubert

      If Durant leaves, but Klay stays, 100% the Warriors run it back and try to recapture the magic of the 14-15 and 15-16 teams. Guys are a couple years older, and their collection of role players has really eroded over the past few years such that I don’t think they’d be title favorites certainly, but they’d still be in the mix, and there’s no way you flush that preemptively moving into a new building.

      This was basically the Yankees post-2001 run. They overpaid Jeter and the rest of the gang, never won but always contended, made a ton of money.

      If you’re Warriors ownership, you have to ride that cash train until it stops.

    65. DRed

      Rozier, Smart & Hayward combing to score 7 points on 3-17 shooting got all the Boston fans pointing fingers at Kyrie somehow. I love it.

    66. swiftandabundant

      The one thing people do overlook is that when we had star and Melo and made the playoffs for the first time, that next offseason Tyson Chandler did choose The Knocks in free agency. And the next summer an old Jason Kidd chose is too. So when we were actually halfway decent, even if stat and Melo weren’t legit superstars, we were able to attract basically one of the top centers in the league and a great veteran role player joined us as well. If we had managed our cap and assets better during that time (ie, amnestied stat, convinced Melo to join us in free agency instead of trading away everything for him) we probably would have attracted more talent.

    67. JK47

      Kemba:
      More durable
      Less douchey

      Kyrie:
      More efficient scorer
      Better playmaker
      Two years younger

      It’s Kyrie age 27-30 versus Kemba age 29-32. Kyrie’s better in the first place, plus you get him closer to his prime for longer.

      No brainer.

    68. DRed

      I will say I have some concern that Kyrie’s improvement on defense is just playing on a team with a much better defense. You take that away and he’s probably not much better than Kemba (although he is younger, and he also might have legitimately improved his defense)

    69. Bruno Almeida

      Let’s not forget that the Warriors were a garbage team for decades before Curry arrived, with only very small feel good moments here and there. They’re not the Lakers or the Celtics that will always find a way to be around, there’s a real chance after Curry is gone that they’re never replicating this sort of success. There is no way they risk it all on a full scale rebuild, specially when they’re leaving their established fan base of decades and moving to a place that has never been a traditional strong place for basketball.

    70. thenamestsam

      This was basically the Yankees post-2001 run. They overpaid Jeter and the rest of the gang, never won but always contended, made a ton of money.

      If you’re Warriors ownership, you have to ride that cash train until it stops.

      I don’t think baseball/basketball comparisons work very well because the baseball playoffs are such a total crapshoot. It’s true the Yankees didn’t win any of those years but they easily could have. From 2001-2008 the Yankees won 95,103,101,101,95,97,94,89 and lost twice in the WS, once in the ALCS, 4 times in the DS and missed the playoffs once. They weren’t exactly just living off past glories – each of those teams other than 2008 probably could have won the WS in an alternate reality.

      The basketball playoffs are much more deterministic (although of course some randomness exists). The Warriors will probably know fairly quickly whether they’re still a real contender or if they’re just printing cash off the past.

    71. latke

      I’ve been slowly disengaging from the Knicks over the last 6 or 7 years. It started out with my no longer being able to spin things like a normal fan in order to believe the team had a chance at relevance at some point. I was still engaged in Knicks talk, but I was mostly into debating why they suck rather than trying to spin their choices as potentially positive.

      But if the Knicks sign Kyrie and Durant, it’ll be almost everything I dislike about the NBA all in one package…

      * incompetent management rewarded and a major insult to the idea that teams in all markets are on equal footing

      * horribly unlikeable players, especially Kyrie. The dude still acts like an infant, and it’s even more offensive since he’s clearly a smart guy. The stories about him in Cleveland and now the way he’s behaving with the Celtics and the fact that his teammates seem to despise him AND he’s playing awfully while not taking any responsibility. KD is just that obnoxiously self-conscious control freak who takes everything personally. Not the worst in the world, but a real challenge to root for.

      * Ugly, isolation-based based basketball. Both Kyrie and KD love to play one on one.

      * The return of all the brand appeal fans, just like with Melo. People who watch NBA basketball for the same reason some people read US Magazine… “They’re really famous so I want to talk about them!”

      The team would likely be good although not good enough to win a title, and I respect the fact that for most people, that far outweighs all other factors. A decade ago, maybe I would have felt the same way. But I think if this happens, I will just have to stop watching the Knicks, maybe stop watching NBA basketball altogether since I won’t be able to resist following the Knicks if I’m still following the league.

    72. thenoblefacehumper

      Kyrie Irving says some really annoying shit but it would be odd to make him and not, say, Derrick Rose your breaking point in terms of likability

    73. thenoblefacehumper

      The Nuggets have an interesting situation on their hands. First off, Millsap puts them $11M over the cap next year. Without him, they have $19M in space.

      If the Nuggets renounce all of their free agents and decline Tyler Lydon’s option, they can open up around $16M in cap space. You might be looking at their space if they do crazy shit like decline the options on one or more of Murray/Beasley/Hernangomez?

      With $16M, they’d run into the same problem Hubert runs into whenever he tries to put together a scenario where signing mid-tier free agents makes sense; the best one out there is…Paul Millsap, who’d they be trying to replace in this scenario.

    74. thenoblefacehumper

      Great question. One can also flip it around — does anybody think the Celtics fare any worse with Kemba instead of Kyrie? I honestly have no clue.

      I definitely think that, due to Kyrie being the better basketball player across the board. Can someone explain to me what they think Kemba brings to the table that Kyrie doesn’t? If the answer is “he doesn’t say insufferable shit on a weekly basis” I’m with you there but I’m asking about basketball related things.

    75. Ntilakilla

      * Ugly, isolation-based based basketball. Both Kyrie and KD love to play one on one.

      By this standard the 1990s Pat Ewing era Knicks also weren’t your cup of tea since that was an Iso-heavy offense which dump the ball to him as its 1st, 2nd, and 3rd option.

    76. geo

      I’m asking about basketball related things.

      this may fall under the whole poorly defined team “chemistry” thing…

      initially i thought portland would beat the nuggets – more so than anything because of their experience (all though their playoff experience hasn’t been positive) and some clutch closers…however, if barton and harris keep playing at their current level, and, jokic stays consistent, i’m definitely leaning more now towards denver being able to win this series…

    77. Brian Cronin

      The one thing people do overlook is that when we had star and Melo and made the playoffs for the first time, that next offseason Tyson Chandler did choose The Knocks in free agency.

      He had chosen to go play with David Lee and one-game Steph Curry before the Knicks outbid them, so no, I don’t think we’re overlooking anything there.

      Kidd fits the narrative better, but even there, the Knicks had become a decent team the year before, so they were an appealing destination either way. Plus, of course, in the most Knicksy way possible, one of the main reasons Kidd gave for choosing the Knicks was to mentor the young point guard that the Knicks then decided not to bring back.

    78. Hubert

      Wow, I didn’t even bother to look into that Liverpool game. They rested their players for the weekend, too. Disastrous, Barca.

      Here’s hoping my Spurs join them tomorrow. Not optimistic. This young Ajax side is special.

    79. Hubert

      With $16M, they’d run into the same problem Hubert runs into whenever he tries to put together a scenario where signing mid-tier free agents makes sense; the best one out there is…Paul Millsap, who’d they be trying to replace in this scenario.

      You’re still operating under the false assumption that every team will overpay to contend, or even that they prioritize the optimal lineup over the most cost effecient roster.

      You ignored a pretty major point earlier. Probably because it disrupts your narrative. Perhaps you want to address why, if Denver is so hell bent on contending, they traded Faried, Arthur, and a 1st round pick to Brooklyn for a player they immediately waived.

    80. Hubert

      They also traded Wilson chandler and 2nd round picks…. for cash.

      These are the actions of a team that you assert is only focused on contending, and is happy to overpay its own players?

    81. Zippy Le Pin

      TNFH, I think you’re right. Geo brings up the ‘poorly defined team chemistry thing’ and I think he’s potentially right too, but I don’t want to go there as it’s too hard (impossible) to say much of anything how that might really play out in terms of wins and losses.

      What I keep coming back to is the question of where each of us stand in terms of good rootable team, vs. playing for a ring every year, vs. ring or bust. I look at the team KD is playing for now, and the fact that he’s got himself a fairly good point guard at the moment — and a decent amount of (admittedly declining somewhat) firepower alongside that Curry fellow. And even now nothing’s guaranteed. How does KD and Kyrie compare to that? Yeah, MichRob, but then? If we get Zion perhaps all bets are off, but otherwise I am hard-pressed to see us being at best even money to crap out in the second round.

      I’d take that in a second, trust me, but I think we top out about the same with Kemba. And I’d rather root wildly for the team and say “good job” at the end of the year than grind my teeth for the entire season and spend the offseason arguing about whether Kyrie shot us out of that round or we just didn’t cohere because he’s an ass or rationale C.

    82. JK47

      I dunno, I’d rather have the guy who is two years younger and who is better at throwing the ball into the basket. Years three and four of the contract especially when it’s age 29-30 Kyrie vs age 31-32 Kemba. Kyrie is kind of aloof and not real likable but it’s not like he’s a complete asshole.

    83. JK47

      I just ran that Knicks wall thing about 40 or 50 times and didn’t get the #1 pick once. It booted me because it thought it was DDOSing it.

    84. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @40

      “Are you saying that he’s saying they had to overpay Millsap just to get him to show up?”

      EXACTLY!

      I’m going to assume you haven’t been a Nuggets fan for long or weren’t reading the local blogs and articles in recent years. They’ve been trying to bring in top free agents for years without success and half the players they traded were moved because the player wanted out even though the team was good.

      Overpaying Milsap wasn’t a way to do anything other than get him to Denver because they wanted to bring in a very good veteran player. If they allow him to walk they will have to decide whether they’ll be able to attract a different top free agent to replace him. That’s all.

    85. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      That’s not what he said at all. You’re intentionally misrepresenting his position so you can laugh at him.

      I’m either the worst writer on earth or it’s a way of life for him. I thought I was pretty clear when I said that’s why they overpaid him.

    86. Brian Cronin

      I did the Knicks Wall thing and got Zion and KD and then Kyrie still turned me down! Fuck the heck?

    87. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      It’s Kyrie age 27-30 versus Kemba age 29-32. Kyrie’s better in the first place, plus you get him closer to his prime for longer.

      No brainer.

      I’ve been trying to make the case that they’re closer than boxscore metrics would lead you to believe. It’s not that I’m anxious to sign Kemba. It’s that I’m becoming less anxious to sign Kyrie the more I analyze his game and impact on the Celtics (which is less than people assume) (over and above injury risk and personality)

    88. Brian Cronin

      I also did it and got Ja. Then KD and Kawhi turn me down, so I obviously preserve the cap space and they gave me a zero!

    89. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I’m either the worst writer on earth or it’s a way of life for him. I thought I was pretty clear when I said that’s why they overpaid him.

      As I showed above, you weren’t clear.

    90. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      Strat,

      What did you think of the foul call in the Kentucky Derby that determined the winner? Was it a real foul? Should it have been called?

    91. ptmilo

      I did the Knicks Wall thing and got Zion and KD and then Kyrie still turned me down! Fuck the heck?

      kyrie is never going sign somewhere with so much momentum knowing it would leave him with no position

    92. JK47

      It’s that I’m becoming less anxious to sign Kyrie the more I analyze his game and impact on the Celtics

      Ah, the mysterious black box Strat metrics again. How much free time do you have on your hands? Because apparently you watch hundreds upon thousands of hours of NBA games and still have time to come up with these complex metrics that analyze things as micro as Kyrie Irving’s impact on the Celtics. You’re like a one man basketball Fangraphs over here. Plus all the horse racing stuff.

      Are you just slamming Adderall every day and never sleeping?

    93. geo

      tough day, nerves are a bit shot…oh man, i needed that laugh…

      just to add – a lot of this here wouldn’t work near so well if you weren’t so bulletproof strat…

      i appreciate your resolve and even disposition…

    94. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      As I showed above, you weren’t clear.

      I can see where you were coming from after reading your explanation, but you have a habit of attacking things I am saying that wind up being misunderstandings of what I meant. IMO, that’s because you (and others) are LOOKING for something to attack instead of trying to understand what I am saying.

      I’m a contrarian guy. So I get why I occasionally ruffle feathers. Ruffled feathers go both ways. It just makes me want to point out all the flaws in boxscore stats. :-)

    95. Ntilakilla

      LOL let today’s thread be an exhibit for how Strat works to get a rise out of people.

    96. geo

      i had a good buddy, whom i’ve lost touch with, years ago whom during just about every and any conversation would always reply:

      “no” – then restate pretty much exactly what you said, and, just change it up a bit…

      “wow, what a great day, look at that blue sky”…”no, it’s an okay day, but, the sky is really much more indigo than anything”…

      after a while, i just figured it was a part of his normal syntax and just didn’t let it bother me…

      he just had a really competitive nature…imagine how annoying it would be to kick it with someone like a jordan or kobe…you would need the patience of a saint…

    97. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Ah, the mysterious black box Strat metrics again. How much free time do you have on your hands? Because apparently you watch hundreds upon thousands of hours of NBA games and still have time to come up with these complex metrics that analyze things as micro as Kyrie Irving’s impact on the Celtics. You’re like a one man basketball Fangraphs over here. Plus all the horse racing stuff.

      It’s much simpler than that.

      1. The Celtics were successful this year when Kyrie was out.

      2. The Celtics were successful in the playoffs last year when Kyrie was out and Rozier was playing PG.

      3. The Celtics were successful with no defense Isaiah Thomas running the point the year before that.

      4. Kyrie’s on/off over the last 2 seasons was +3.1 and +2.8 (lifetime +3.1) vs. Kemba’s +10.9 and +6.5 (lifetime +5.6)

      5. Kyrie is a ball dominant ISO player that his teammates reportedly do not like and feel hurts the flow of the offense even though he’s getting his numbers.

      There’s a ton of noise in on/off and lots of things can impact things from season to season, but I have yet to see any evidence that Kyrie has a huge positive impact on his team. They are better with him, but not by a lot. I don’t see many Charlotte games, but when I do Kemba carries that team on his back.

      So my feeling is that there are probably things going on that are not being captured by the boxscore that are misleading us about the actual gap between the two.

    98. bidiong

      I drafted Zion and couldn’t get any free agents to sign. Built almost a 500 team even though I preserved cap space… Damn simulation!

    99. geo

      got kd and kemba to accept offer, let lance and zo go…drafted clarke at 4th…went 53-29…geez dred – who knew this gm stuff was so easy :)

    100. thenoblefacehumper

      You ignored a pretty major point earlier. Probably because it disrupts your narrative. Perhaps you want to address why, if Denver is so hell bent on contending, they traded Faried, Arthur, and a 1st round pick to Brooklyn for a player they immediately waived.

      I ignored it because it was totally irrelevant. Faried wasn’t helping the Nuggets win games at all–he had only played 32 the season prior to the trade! It’s just not a remotely analogous scenario to letting their likely second best player walk after a 54 win season.

    101. thenoblefacehumper

      1. The Celtics were successful this year when Kyrie was out.

      2. The Celtics were successful in the playoffs last year when Kyrie was out and Rozier was playing PG.

      3. The Celtics were successful with no defense Isaiah Thomas running the point the year before that.

      4. Kyrie’s on/off over the last 2 seasons was +3.1 and +2.8 (lifetime +3.1) vs. Kemba’s +10.9 and +6.5 (lifetime +5.6)

      5. Kyrie is a ball dominant ISO player that his teammates reportedly do not like and feel hurts the flow of the offense even though he’s getting his numbers.

      1. This is a 15 game sample size against almost entirely non-playoff teams

      2. Rozier played very well during those playoffs, so I’m not sure what this is supposed to prove

      3. Isaiah Thomas had one of the best scoring seasons for a guard of all time during this season, to the point where people thought trading him for Kyrie might’ve been a lateral move at best

      4. Kyrie has been mostly playing on pretty deep Celtics teams and with LeBron James. Walker has been playing with teams incoherently thrown together.

      5. This is terrible news for Kemba Walker, who has a higher USG%, lower AST%, and lower TS%

    102. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      4. Kyrie’s on/off over the last 2 seasons was +3.1 and +2.8 (lifetime +3.1) vs. Kemba’s +10.9 and +6.5 (lifetime +5.6)

      bruh on/off is 100% dependent on who your backup is

    103. ptmilo

      i’ve watched that melo game of zones like four times. d’antoni in particular was just fucking art.

    104. Bruno Almeida

      I won’t even get into the Kyrie and Kemba debate because this is one of the most insane, and we’ve fucking seen insane around here, arguments I’ve seen on this board. It’s Ruruland putting Melo on LeBron’s level all over again.

    105. Hubert

      I like Kemba Walker a lot, and I know he’s going to get a max, but he’s not worth it. He’s bad value at $33mm.

      Only if his market was ~$22mm could I see him v Kyrie being a debate.

    106. JK47

      Strat, thanks for sharing that methodology. It’s a terrible methodology, and it does little to explain how a point guard with a .590 TS% on 30.0 USG% is somehow not a valuable player, but it’s… well, it’s a methodology.

      If you’re gonna make an argument that a player with that kind of efficiency and usage is essentially a non-impact player, that’s one of those things where it’s an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof. Small-sample raw on/off data ain’t extraordinary proof.

      With this one I think I’ll be sticking to the boxscore instead of STATVORP.

    107. JK47

      Sorry, that should have said STRATVORP.

      Let’s hope POR-DEN is better than this crummy game

    108. Ntilakilla

      I got Jokic coming up big tonight because I want to see a showdown between the two best passing teams in the NBA for the WC finals.

    109. Ntilakilla

      I don’t know what happened to Philly but they rolled over and died on Toronto’s home court.

    110. Hubert

      I love Kyrie. But how good a team can we really put around him and Durant? You have to get rid of someone make over $3mm to make room, so Frank is probably gone.

      1 Kyrie, Smith
      2 Dotson, Trier
      3 Durant, Knox
      4 Kornet
      5 Robinson

      And you’ve got our pick, the room exception, and vet min guys.

      There’s not even a lot of flexibility to trade. If you add up the entire bench it’s only $12mm to send out in salary.

      We’d have to get some miracles.

    111. JK47

      Well, presumably the 1RP and room exception would be rotation players, and maybe you add a decent vet min piece, so if you add three more viable players to that roster maybe it starts to look pretty viable.

    112. thenoblefacehumper

      Hubert, you’re not wrong that we’d need multiple things to go right to be a legitimate contender for multiple years. This year’s pick would likely have to be at least somewhat productive quickly, we’d need to nail the minimum/exception signings, and it sure would be nice to get something out of DSJ/Knox.

      But 3 players with a chance to be .200 WS48/6 BPM guys is a hell of start. I think if you can compile that level of talent so quickly, you pretty much have to do it and believe you can do the hard work of finding cheap, productive players.

      None of the things we’d need to happen are that unlikely. Top 5 picks tend to be good. The better minimum/exception guys tend to gravitate towards good teams and big markets. Young players tend to get better. I think an above-average front office could get that team to 55+ wins annually, so the question is do we have that?

    113. ptmilo

      there might be other deals to make in that situation. something like knox/smith/filler for covington for example.

    114. DRed

      Kawhi never looks like he’s playing full speed it’s incredible to watch him work through a defense.

    115. Ntilakilla

      LOL the worst team in the NBA in the New York Knicks are on pace to add two top 10 players and a top 5 draft pick this offseason and people here are worried about this is not enough to win a championship. This is the reason it’s impossible to have nice things for some. Instead of appreciating what you’re about to have and looking forward to the journey, people are already projecting what they won’t accomplish.

    116. thenoblefacehumper

      When I complained about not signing Manny Machado it was because I didn’t know Gio Urshela was better. My bad.

    117. Grocer

      I’ve read nothing since like 10am so I don’t know if this is upthread, but HOLY SHIT MURRAY

    118. Brian Cronin

      I’ve read nothing since like 10am so I don’t know if this is upthread, but HOLY SHIT MURRAY

      He’s really responded ever since that OT stinker of his. Good for him. He is only 22.

      Wait, somebody thinks Denver is going to decline Millsap’s option?

      It does seem to be on the unlikely side of things.

    119. Bruno Almeida

      Murray is undoubtedly very talented. I have no idea if he’ll ever harness this talent into great production and I’d be very concerned about signing him to a max, but at least there’s something to be excited about his future.

    120. Bruno Almeida

      I would, however, trade every player who played on the New York Knicks in the last 5 seasons for Jokic.

    121. Early Bird

      We’ve grabbed so many useful players off the garbage heap. Why are we worried about filling out the rest of the roster?

    122. Brian Cronin

      I’m not. I think you clearly take the two star players who want to come here and then figure stuff out from there. Even if the Knicks then top out as 50 wins this upcoming season, that’d be, what, their second 50 win season in twenty years (they won 50 games in 1999-2000, so that’d be 21 seasons away after next season). I would gladly take that. Then see what they can do when they have the MLE available the next season (and having further development for Mitch and the 2019 first rounder).

    123. Hubert

      That makes sense, Brian, but the way I’m looking at it is like this:

      We have to pay Durant supermax money for age 31-35 seasons.

      It’s reasonable to assume he will be in decline for 2 of those seasons, if not 3.

      If I have to pay that back end price, I want to be sure I can actually win in the season I’m most likely to get peak Durant. If I can’t the pieces around him right away, I don’t know it makes sense to sign him. Unless we’re cool with just watching the Durant show for a couple years without winning a title, which I’m sure sounds appealing to many.

    124. Brian Cronin

      I think a lot of that concern depends on the Top Five pick in the NBA Draft not being any good, which I don’t think is a given. That player might very well be a really good player, right? Add in Mitch hopefully improving over time and Kyrie still being in his 20s (and whoever they can add with the MLE), there isn’t any real reason why the team shouldn’t be able to weather Durant’s decline phase. That’s not to mention also the moves that they might be able to make with Knox, Frank and DSJ as trade chips (perhaps even the Dallas picks, to boot).

      That’s also not to mention that we don’t even really know what Kevin Durant’s decline phase will look like. He’s already a bit of an aberration, right? I mean, you think that Durant is going to score just as well as Harden’s historic scoring season in his first year with the Knicks but then he’s just going to, what, fall off of a cliff the following season? Kevin Durant’s decline phase might still be really, really good.

    125. Z-man

      Was just hanging out at a bar with Bill Clinton. The man is still as sharp as a tack! Hard to get a word in edgewise but you can listen to him expound on an array of subjects all day.

    126. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And Z-man’s the dude saying we’retoo cool for school

      Foh old man ; )

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