Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, June 27, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.02.07)

  • [NYDN] Kevin Durant is sick of the Knicks rumors and finally breaks silence: ‘I’m done!’
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:30:00 PM)

    Kevin Durant can’t escape the Knicks rumors, and on Wednesday night, he broke his nine-day media boycott and blasted reporters for fueling the never-ending speculation.

    “I have nothing to do with the Knicks, I don’t know who traded [Kristaps] Porzingis,” Durant said after scoring 23 points in the…

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ plans for Enes Kanter maybe affected by Bulls-Wizards deal
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 5:45:00 PM)

    By dint of another trade, the Knicks will need to find another way to abandon the disgruntled Enes Kanter.

    Chicago has agreed to ship Jabari Parker and Bobby Portis to the Wizards for Otto Porter Jr., according to multiple reports Wednesday.

    As the Daily News’ Stefan Bondy first reported, the Knicks…

  • [NYDN] Knicks owner James Dolan gets richer as fans perpetually suffer
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 2:45:00 PM)

    The Knicks are limping to the finish line of another lost season, and attendance at their games has dipped for a third consecutive year, but James Dolan’s pockets will forever remain stacked.

    His franchise again topped Forbes’ annual value list of NBA teams, rising 11 percent from last year to…

  • [TheRinger] Kevin Durant is sick of the Knicks rumors and finally breaks silence: ‘I’m done!’
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:30:00 PM)

    Kevin Durant can’t escape the Knicks rumors, and on Wednesday night, he broke his nine-day media boycott and blasted reporters for fueling the never-ending speculation.

    “I have nothing to do with the Knicks, I don’t know who traded [Kristaps] Porzingis,” Durant said after scoring 23 points in the…

  • [TheRinger] Knicks’ plans for Enes Kanter maybe affected by Bulls-Wizards deal
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 5:45:00 PM)

    By dint of another trade, the Knicks will need to find another way to abandon the disgruntled Enes Kanter.

    Chicago has agreed to ship Jabari Parker and Bobby Portis to the Wizards for Otto Porter Jr., according to multiple reports Wednesday.

    As the Daily News’ Stefan Bondy first reported, the Knicks…

  • [TheRinger] Knicks owner James Dolan gets richer as fans perpetually suffer
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 2:45:00 PM)

    The Knicks are limping to the finish line of another lost season, and attendance at their games has dipped for a third consecutive year, but James Dolan’s pockets will forever remain stacked.

    His franchise again topped Forbes’ annual value list of NBA teams, rising 11 percent from last year to…

  • [Sports Illustrated] Knicks Remain NBA’s Most Valuable Franchise for Fourth Straight Year on Forbes’ List
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 2:24:51 PM)

    The Knicks, Lakers, Warriors, Bulls and Celtics are the most top five most valuable NBA franchises.

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Notes: Kanter, Smith Jr., Porzingis, Valuation
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:14:53 PM)

    If the Knicks can’t trade center Enes Kanter, buyout talks will begin as soon as the 3pm Eastern deadine passes tomorrow, tweets Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN. Kanter, who has been unhappy with his reduced playing time, exercised his player option last summer and returned to New York on an $18.6MM expiring deal. It’s not clear […]

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest on Knicks trade target Anthony Davis: New York on ‘equal footing’ as Lakers
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 10:28:14 PM)

    Pelicans star Anthony Davis has requested a trade, informing the team he has no interest in re-signing. With news of Davis wanting out came reports that the Knicks have strong interest in trading for him. Here are the latest rumors…

  • [SNY Knicks] Just how good of an NBA prospect is Knicks’ draft target Zion Williamson?
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 9:19:45 PM)

    The college basketball world currently revolves around Zion Williamson, the Duke dynamo whose highlights have become must-see, especially for Knicks fans dreaming of seeing him call the Garden home.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks could buy out Enes Kanter if he’s not traded
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:35:39 PM)

    Even if the Knicks don’t trade Enes Kanter, his time in New York could be coming to an end very soon.

  • [SNY Knicks] SNY.tv ALERT: We’re upgrading our commenting system
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:21:08 PM)

    We are very excited to announce that we have a new commenting platform that we’ll be launching on Thursday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks rival has checked in on trading for Wesley Matthews
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 1:47:53 PM)

    The 32-year-old Matthews is earning $18.62 million this year and will be an unrestricted free agent after the season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks are still NBA’s most valuable franchise
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 1:40:11 PM)

    The Knicks are ranked as the NBA’s most valuable franchise by Forbes for the fourth consecutive year.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ Kevin Knox will replace Lonzo Ball in Rising Star Challenge
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 12:47:15 PM)

    Knicks rookie Kevin Knox receives the call to participate in All-Star Weekend festivities.

  • [SNY Knicks] 4 ways how Tobias Harris trade impacts Knicks
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:13:09 AM)

    Wednesday’s trade between the Clippers and Sixers that sent Tobias Harris to Philadelphia could have ramifications on the Knicks’ plans.

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest on Knicks target Kyrie Irving: Celtics ‘shaken’ but ‘cautiously optimistic’
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 10:16:17 AM)

    Kyrie Irving can be a free agent after the season, and the idea that he could team up with fellow free agent Kevin Durant on the Knicks this summer has picked up steam. Here are the latest rumors…

  • [SNY Knicks] SEE IT: Is this another hint Kevin Durant is coming to Knicks?
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:29:46 AM)

    The Kevin Durant to the Knicks rumors started flying before the season and have reached a fever pitch since the trade of Kristaps Porzingis freed two max slots for New York for the summer of 2019.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks and Lakers Said to Be Top Destinations for Anthony Davis
    (Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:51:00 AM)

    Davis might not be dealt away from New Orleans before Thursday’s trade deadline, but the Knicks remain one of his preferred teams for a long-term contract.

  • [NYTimes] Sixers Trade for Tobias Harris Shakes Up the N.B.A.’s Eastern Conference
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 10:53:44 PM)

    The late-night trade, which included six players and multiple draft picks, puts Philadelphia in position to take control of the playoff race in the East.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Behind the Nets’ Success Is a Carefully Crafted Culture and, Finally, a Clue
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:54:49 PM)

    A strategy of bringing in players with something to prove has made the Nets a team of low-wattage players finding their footing and becoming stars.

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. All-Star Mock Draft: Giving LeBron and Giannis a Hand
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:33:25 PM)

    James and Antetokounmpo will pick from a pool of 24 players for this year’s N.B.A. All-Star Game. To get them started, we did a mock version of the draft.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Inside the Porzingis Deal, and How the Knicks Did Better Than You Think
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:00:03 AM)

    Let’s dig into the biggest curiosities surrounding the departure of the Knicks beloved No. 6.

  • [NYTimes] Relationship Advice From Two Who Have Withstood the Test of Time and Rhyme
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:04:51 PM)

    Walt Frazier and Mike Breen have worked together for 20 years as Knicks commentators. Their secret for all couples? Listen to each other.

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant rips media, says ‘I have nothing to do with the Knicks’
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 9:22:06 PM)

    Kevin Durant finally spoke Wednesday night, and needless to say, he wasn’t happy with the media and the Knicks free-agency talk surrounding him. “I have nothing to do with the Knicks,” Durant said after scoring 23 points in the Warriors’ 141-102 blowout win over the visiting Spurs Wednesday night. “I don’t know who traded [Kristaps]…

  • [NYPost] Long-term hope: Anthony Davis has the Knicks high on his list
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 6:20:37 PM)

    While a report suggests Anthony Davis considers the Knicks as a long-term option as tantalizing as teaming up with LeBron James, Knicks president Steve Mills still has to come up with a meaty enough young package to entice the Pelicans by Thursday’s 3 p.m. deadline. The Post reported first the Knicks offered a Kristaps Porzingis…

  • [NYPost] Kanter, Matthews will be Knicks goners via deadline trade or buyout
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 3:10:12 PM)

    The Knicks already have made an oversized trade-deadline splash, shipping four players to Dallas ahead of Thursday’s deadline. At least two more players are expected to be on the move very soon. If the Knicks can’t trade the large contracts of center Enes Kanter and swingman Wes Matthews for an expiring contract and a draft…

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant continues to avoid the inevitable Knicks questions
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:53:26 AM)

    Kevin Durant’s silence could be a sweet sound to Knicks fans’ ears. The Warriors star hasn’t spoken to the media since the Knicks traded Kristaps Porzingis to the Mavericks last week, freeing up enough cap space to sign two free agents to max contracts this summer. Durant did not talk to the media at Golden…

  • [NYPost] Mountain of losses can’t keep Knicks’ value from growing
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 11:01:10 AM)

    The Knicks are worth $4 billion, making them the most valuable NBA team for the fourth straight year, according to Forbes. That’s despite having the worst record among the league’s 30 teams. In its annual rankings, Forbes said the Knicks’ value increased 11 percent from last year because of a $1 billion renovation of Madison…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ Kevin Knox added to NBA All-Star weekend
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:47:21 AM)

    A shred of light was cast upon the dreadful Knicks on Wednesday when rookie Kevin Knox was named an injury replacement for the Rising Stars Challenge. In replacing injured Lonzo Ball, Knox will join newly acquired Dennis Smith Jr., who is in the Slam Dunk Contest during All-Star weekend. Knox originally was snubbed as just…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ second chance rescued Dennis Smith from Mavericks misery
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:04:41 AM)

    Dennis Smith Jr. finally revealed “it kind of was disappointing’’ and surprising the Knicks didn’t draft him at No. 8 in the 2017 draft. That’s why he views Thursday’s trade as destiny. He just wishes it happened two days earlier. In another spate of irony, Smith dropped a triple-double on the Knicks last Wednesday —…

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks to talk Kanter buyout if no trade
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 7:39:55 PM)

    If the Knicks are unable to trade center Enes Kanter by Thursday’s deadline, the sides are expected to begin discussing a contract buyout, league sources tell ESPN.

  • [ESPN] Forbes: Knicks most valuable NBA team at $4B
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 1:24:12 PM)

    The New York Knicks are worth $4 billion, making them the most valuable NBA team for the fourth straight year, according to Forbes . That’s despite having the worst record among the league’s 30 teams.

  • [NBA] Kevin Knox to Participate in 2019 MTN DEW ICE Rising Stars
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:25:52 AM)

    NEW YORK (February 6, 2019) – The NBA announced today that Knicks rookie forward Kevin Knox has been se

  • [NBA] Knicks Acquire Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews, and Two Future First Round Picks
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:53:57 AM)

    NEW YORK, NY (January 31, 2019) – The New York Knicks announced today that the team has acquired center DeAndre

  • [NBA] New York Knicks Sign Kadeem Allen to Two-Way Contract
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 8:56:56 AM)

    NEW YORK, January 14, 2019 – The New York Knicks announced today that the team has signed guard Kadeem Allen

  • [NBA] New York Knicks Sign Allonzo Trier
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 9:00:12 AM)

    NEW YORK, December 13, 2018 – The New York Knicks announced today that the team has signed guard Allonzo Trier

  • [NBA] Knicks Announce Schedule of Theme Nights for 2018-19 Season
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 10:41:04 AM)

    NEW YORK, August 23, 2018 – The Knicks announced today a series of theme nights during the 2018-19 home schedule that re

  • [NBA] New York Knicks 2018-19 Schedule Announced
    (Wednesday, February 06, 2019 10:41:52 AM)

    Home-Opener at Madison Square Garden on Wednesday, Oct. 17

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    310 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.02.07)

    1. chriskZIPCODE

      I’m trying to compare what we got for KP to what LA got for Tobias Harris. KP has more potential, and is 3 years younger, but he’s hurt. so slightly more value. Smith Jr is a slightly better prospect than Shamet. two first rounds in both; kinda a wash. we got a protected one, but Philly’s pick should be very late. We dumped a shit ton of salary. So, kinda a wash? did I just talk myself into thinking we got a good deal?

    2. Hubert

      does anyone have any idea why this league rule about being able to trade Dennis Smith as long as he’s not combined with another player exists?

      I’m starting to get the feeling AD is down to us or Boston. But there’s multiple reasons New Orleans can’t/won’t do it now.

      For one thing, our 2019 pick would be involved and AD coming here would mess up our tank.

      For another, we can’t include Smith. And I don’t think the league would look kindly on circumventing their rule by doing trades.

      However, there is risk in waiting. If we get Zion, we might not want to trade our pick. I would hope the brass isn’t so star hungry that they’d package Mitch and Zion and more for AD.

      One of the saddest subplots of today is that if AD doesn’t get moved, every great Mitch game from here on out could push him further out the door. I just don’t see us having the fortitude to withhold him the way Ainge held Rondo back.

      Also, that KD presser last night. Whoa.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/1093394362224922625

    3. Zanzibar

      It’s 10 3 oclock, do you know where your children are? (old-timers from NYC will recognize the reference) I'd be fine if all of our kids are gone by sunset (and that includes Zion in the womb) so long as Mitch remains. It would be sad if we just watched Mitch's last game in a Knick uniform, but he sure played like he wanted to go home. You know Demps was watching that last game; couldn't Mitch have been "sick" for juuust one more game?

      Frank's being shopped harder than a late night infomercial gizmo. Why not wait until the summer before we dump him? If we wait until March to waive Jordan, he and our other guards will have Jordan/Mitch for PnR and Kornet PnPop for a month instead of useless Enes. Maybe Frank's stats improve and he nets more value or he's a keeper and we move Smith. BTW I hope they try the Smith/Kornet PnPop. Kornet's spacing in general (not just PnPop) might really help open up lanes to the hoop for a slasher like Smith.

    4. chriskZIPCODE

      that’s a good point, Hubert…..I hadn’t thought about what having AD now will do to our pick, and you are right. I think that’s good news for us; knowing what that pick is helps us make a decision. Although, if NA wasn’t interested in KP, will they still be interested if we dont get the 1?

    5. WeirdJohn

      Just a quick shout-out to Geo and THCJ for the welcome and answer to my question a couple of days ago. Was traveling for work and didn’t get to jump back on for a while.

      For someone who is not knowledgeable about some of the advanced stats (BPM, ISO etc) is there a good resource out there to learn more about what they mean and how they are calculated?

    6. bobneptune

      that’s a good point, Hubert…..I hadn’t thought about what having AD now will do to our pick, and you are right. I think that’s good news for us; knowing what that pick is helps us make a decision. Although, if NA wasn’t interested in KP, will they still be interested if we dont get the 1?

      Just for the record, if though… should through divine intervention Zion falls into out lap, I’m not trading him to anyone for anyone including AD. He is Charles Barkley (sans the douchebaggery) at a minimum and has a chance to be significantly better. And he is cheap for 4 years allowing you to fill 2 positions with elite players for the price of one with our cap space.

    7. chriskZIPCODE

      bob, I agree. if we can get Zion, I don’t want to trade him. But, at the same point, I think he’s the only reason NO would do business with us. Unless they think we are going to give them like 3 picks, mitch and knox. but still……can’t they get more from Bos or LA?

    8. chriskZIPCODE

      WeirdJohn……just go with pointz scored. that’s the most important stat. that’s how they decide who wins the game.

    9. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Now that the Clippers have close to 2 max slots opened for next year should we be concerned?

      They have a better owner, better team, better management, better coach, and are also a preferred destination of free agents. This KP trade to open 2 max slots is starting to remind of the time Walsh opened 2 slots for Lebron and everyone starting celebrating. Then a few other teams scrambled to open 2 slots and eventually Miami opened close to 3 slots. The odds of the Knicks striking out in free agency are already rising and the ink on the KP deal isn’t even dry yet. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

    10. Hubert

      Just for the record, if though… should through divine intervention Zion falls into out lap, I’m not trading him to anyone for anyone including AD. He is Charles Barkley (sans the douchebaggery) at a minimum and has a chance to be significantly better. And he is cheap for 4 years allowing you to fill 2 positions with elite players for the price of one with our cap space.

      I agree. If we had Zion and Mitch making $11 million, that’s as good a foundation as one can hope for.

    11. Owen

      I am interested to see what NO ends up getting for AD.

      That KD presser, whoo, he was pretty salty.

      What is the mlbtraderumors for basketball these days? Everyone just follow the big press guys on twitter for their news?

      Also, Zion had a pretty lackluster 16pts, 17 rebounds, with 3 assists, 4 steals, and 3 blocks. Here is what the BC coach had to say about him.

      Boston College coach Jim Christian said about Williamson: “For all the things said about him, seeing him live for the first time … he plays so dang hard. He changed the whole game. He comes up with more balls than anyone I’ve ever seen. That’s a straight winner.”

      We aren’t getting Zion but if we do, I may lead a riot outside of MSG when we trade him.

    12. MSA

      This KP trade to open 2 max slots is starting to remind of the time Walsh opened 2 slots for Lebron and everyone starting celebrating.

      This is different. Walsh traded our rookie, an unprotected first round pick and another swap right to open cap space.

      The only loss now is KP and many of us didn’t want to pay him the max anyway.

    13. thenoblefacehumper

      The KP trade was good because it would’ve been a bad idea to pay him 5/$156M, not because it opened up two max slots for us. So other teams having cap space (the Clippers still need to trade Gallo to get to two max slots FYI) has no bearing on my opinion of the trade.

    14. Zanzibar

      Now that the Clippers have close to 2 max slots opened for next year should we be concerned?

      Yes but it’s even worse than that. Mavs have a max slot if they stretch Courtney. Would KD/Kyrie/Kawhi want to team up with KP and Luka? Those 3 plus Powell/Kleber/Finney-Smith/Timmy/Room Exception might be attractive. You never know. There may be more impetus to put KP on the court before the end of the season.

    15. Hubert

      They have a better owner, better team, better management, better coach, and are also a preferred destination of free agents.

      And the media isn’t pissing off all the free agents with questions about them going to the Clippers.

      Kevin Durant sure didn’t sound like someone who appreciates hearing the word “knicks” and strikes me as someone volatile enough to hold that against us.

    16. Hubert

      Would KD/Kyrie/Kawhi want to team up with KP and Luka?

      Luka, Porzingis, Durant, and Hardaway…. in Dallas instead of New York. What a gut punch that would be. Might as well sign Vonleh for the room exception while they’re at it.

      One of the biggest problems with Dallas being a player in free agency is that Porzinigis is 1,000% going to bad mouth the Knicks to any and every free agent we’re in competition for.

    17. mase

      How depressing would it be if the trade deadline passed another year and we didn’t do a single deal . I mean we are the worst team in the league and no other team seems interested in dealing for any of our expirings.

      Had we not moved kp We would be staring at giving home the max, paying Timmy and Lee next year. Tell me honestly what FA would want to join that situation ?

    18. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      One of the biggest problems with Dallas being a player in free agency is that Porzinigis is 1,000% going to bad mouth the Knicks to any and every free agent we’re in competition for.

      I read a report that said KP was bad mouthing Knicks management to potential free agents BEFORE he was even traded. He was telling them to stay away from NY.

    19. Owen

      Also, big win for the Nets last night. Their starters got smoked but Demarre and Ed Davis and Rondae were +24, +17, and +17 respectively.

      Jokic is a monster. These lines from a center are like science fiction. Just another casual 25-14-10 night.

    20. bobneptune

      The odds of the Knicks striking out in free agency are already rising and the ink on the KP deal isn’t even dry yet. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

      The only difference is they now have a Plan B that might be superior to Plan A plus 6 first round draft choices in the next 4 years (their 4 and Dallas’s 2)and one of then even if it isn’t #1 should be in the top 5. Plus they can rent out the space for additional picks and, most importantly have’t bet 153M strictly on the come….

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM

    21. Hubert

      I am interested to see what NO ends up getting for AD.

      It seems like the inevitability of Davis to LA has receded because New Orleans a) is spiteful, and b) can afford to be spiteful because Boston (and possibly us) can beat their offer.

      If he doesn’t get traded today, my money is on him being a Celtic this summer. And if so, I’d be shocked if Kyrie wants to walk away from playing with AD. At most, he’ll take a one-and-one deal to play one season with AD and then the two of them will be free agents in 2020.

      And if Kyrie and AD are in Boston, we’re pinning all our hopes on Durant and Kawhi or 14% Zion. And if we miss out on both, it will make the Porzingis trade a terrible mistake, especially if one of those guys goes to Dallas.

      Jesus, I’m way too good at seeing all the terrible ways this can end for us.

      So yeah, I think it’s in our best interest if Anthony Davis gets traded today.

    22. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      The KP trade was good because it would’ve been a bad idea to pay him 5/$156M, not because it opened up two max slots for us

      I understand there are different opinions on KP’s value in terms of contribution to wins now, the probability of him improving with added strength and good coaching etc.., and injury risk.

      However, the toughest part of any rebuild is getting the 3 stars you need to contend. Not all those stars are going to be franchise megastars that are actually underpaid at the max. Some of them are just going to be all-stars that can contribute and win games on both sides of the ball or perhaps just outstanding players on just one side that hold their own on the other side. Those guys are going to get the max too. We already had one of the latter in hand. Even if he never goes far beyond what he already is other than learning how to play smarter and getting a little stronger, we had a bird in hand. Now we have no bird in hand and it’s already starting to look like there’s nothing but thorns in that bush.

      The rebuild does not end here.

      We have an excellent 1st round pick. Even if we don’t get a star if we use the cap space well perhaps we can eventually turn those assets into a star. But right now Knox is miles away from making a positive contribution on either side and Frank looks more like a complimentary defensive specialist.

      We are several years into this rebuild already (the draft of KP being the starting point) and we are the worst team in the NBA and don’t have a prospect for a star yet. Even if we draft 1 this year, it will be 4-5 years before he’s hitting stride and then we still have to find 2 more.

      If we don’t get any stars in free agency, we set our rebuild back a few years. That’s just a fact.

    23. Hubert

      And if we miss out on both, it will make the Porzingis trade a terrible mistake

      Addendum: it will make prioritizing cap relief as the main component of our return for KP a mistake.

    24. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Boston College coach Jim Christian said about Williamson: “For all the things said about him, seeing him live for the first time … he plays so dang hard. He changed the whole game. He comes up with more balls than anyone I’ve ever seen. That’s a straight winner.”

      I just watched some video on Youtube (with something like 600k views) that said Zion could be a bust because he’s not “skilled.” Like he basically says that Wiggins is another athleticism-first guy who couldn’t distance himself from NBA athletes, so Zion could have the same problem.

      Like, nevermind the enormous gap in their college stats — who the fuck watches Zion and says, “Eh, lacks skills?” He’s got a great handle, puts it on the ground with both hands, finishes with both hands, can slash into the paint, can back his opponent down, always seems to find a way to get to the rim on- or off-ball. He’s shooting .701 TS% on 28.1 USG%! You don’t do that without “skills.”

      eFG% of .738 in ACC play. Conference play!

    25. thenoblefacehumper

      ome of them are just going to be all-stars that can contribute and win games on both sides of the ball or perhaps just outstanding players on just one side that hold their own on the other side. Those guys are going to get the max too. We already had one of the latter in hand. Even if he never goes far beyond what he already is other than learning how to play smarter and getting a little stronger, we had a bird in hand. Now we have no bird in hand and it’s already starting to look like there’s nothing but thorns in that bush.

      If KP doesn’t go far beyond what he already is, a 5/$156M deal for him is going to be a catastrophe. The reason the trade so much sense was specifically because we didn’t have a bird in the hand. Besides, with KP at his max getting the other two stars we need in your formula would’ve been near impossible.

      We are several years into this rebuild already (the draft of KP being the starting point) and we are the worst team in the NBA and don’t have a prospect for a star yet. Even if we draft 1 this year, it will be 4-5 years before he’s hitting stride and then we still have to find 2 more.

      If we don’t get any stars in free agency, we set our rebuild back a few years. That’s just a fact.

      If the KP draft was actually the starting point of a rebuild, we would’ve had many more assets during his Knicks tenure. Depending on what some of them were, it might’ve made sense to roll the dice on his 5/$156M deal. The problem was that the KP draft was very much not the starting point of a rebuild, as Phil Jackson immediately went right back to trying to win 41 games after the draft. Instead of an unprotected 2019 1RP and two pick swaps, we got Afflalo and Williams. Rinse and repeat with regards to Noah/Lee/Rose. These kinds of idiotic, “get those guys into at least a 500% season so we could get some free space to rebuild” moves destroyed our ability to surround KP with quality, young…

    26. bobneptune

      We are several years into this rebuild already (the draft of KP being the starting point) and we are the worst team in the NBA and don’t have a prospect for a star yet.

      You can’t say with a straight face we were several years into the rebuild when he were missing 2 #1 picks, trading away 2nd rounders to move awful players for no reason and spending cap space on Derick Rose , Aaron afl-LOL-o and the corpse of Noah. A pretty laughable supposition.

      Yeah…. we should be several years into a rebuild but we arent and avoided dishing out 153M on a big injury risk than hasn’t shown the ability to string together 6 good weeks of NBA basketball.

    27. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Also, this is the thing that makes me want him to be a Knick BAD:

      What did you think of Zion and how he acted on the court, how he carries himself?
      Fact: Zion Williamson has yet to pick up a technical this season. One referee who has worked multiple Duke games this season told Stadium that Williamson “never complains about anything, he just goes out and plays.”

      George Blagojevic: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t shit-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

      Aamir Simms: “I know him off the court and he’s a real humble kid. He’s not a trash-talker, he’s humble and real down to earth. He’s not arrogant on the court, or off the court.”

      Jaylen Hoard: “On the court, he engages with his teammates. Off the court, he’s a regular kid. Humble. Some of the guys that are so highly rated are arrogant, but that’s not him.”

      Myles Stephens: “He’s a nice kid, no trash talk. He’s passionate about the game, and when he makes a big play, he’ll get hyped. He’s a good kid. In the game, I accidentally elbowed him in the nose and he just continued to play. He didn’t say anything. He’s a super nice kid.”

      Jordan Bruner: “He’s a great kid, a humble kid. I think he’s handled all the media attention pretty well, but he’s always been level-headed.”

      Matt Mitchell: “You can tell he’s a great kid, and that he’s fun to be around. He’s a high-character kid whose teammates really feed off him – especially with the energy he brings.”

      FREEZE THE ENVELOPE, SILVER.

    28. Owen

      VinCoug – Great piece on Zion. Interesting to here what other players said about him. His personality seems to be amongst his best qualities. That was the one thing I can remember about Beasley as a negative. His numbers were insane but there were definite rumblings about off court stuff.

      I don’t know how anyone could watch Zion and say he is anything less than the best prospect since Lebron. He’s just unbelievable.

    29. DRed

      the only way I see us having a package that the Pelicans might like for AD is if we win the lottery, and at that point it might make more sense to just take Zion.

      If the Knicks were several years into a real rebuild we’d have Karl Anthony Towns and not Joakim Noah’s stretched contract. We’re maybe several months into rebuilding from several years of thoroughly incompetent team building.

    30. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Yeah…. we should be several years into a rebuild but we arent and avoided dishing out 153M on a big injury risk than hasn’t shown the ability to string together 6 good weeks of NBA basketball.

      These numbers are entirely made up, but maybe it’s a new way to see things for people who disagree with the above statement:

      Odds of Porzingis becoming a true max player post-ACL (his defense + >.580 TS%): 25%
      Odds of the future first round picks turning into >3 BPM players: 5%
      Odds of the Knicks signing two max free agents with the space: 10%
      Odds of DSJ becoming a serviceable PG: 10%
      Odds of the Knicks giving $156M to an average player: 0%

      And that last bit alone makes the trade worth it to me. If the 1RPs don’t become stars, the franchise is not crippled. If the Knicks don’t sign Kyrie/Durant, the franchise is not crippled. If DSJ flops, the franchise is not crippled. But if they give Porzingis $156M and he gets injured/regresses/maintains his anemic offensive efficiency/does not have the same motor on defense because of his knee, the franchise is crippled.

    31. thenoblefacehumper

      My post @27 got cut off but it’s not hard to see where I was going. We didn’t have good, cost-controlled assets besides KP because Phil Jackson didn’t want to, so drafting him was not the start of a rebuild.

    32. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      (I mean, I guess the Knicks could pull a Vlade and sign someone like Barnes to a max deal. But the reduction of a KP max mistake to zero is huge, especially since it seems a foregone conclusion that he’ll get every available dollar. For Dallas, the risk is enormous. They have a legit franchise player who’s a teenager and probably want to keep him twenty years. They need to not fuck up his ascent via shitty surrounding contracts or he’ll be scheming for another superteam in the summer of 2022.)

    33. ClashFan

      @32
      I’d agree with that. KP’s injury seems to have forced the FO’s hand to start an actual rebuild. Now, will they abandon that plan soon with all the cap space, or delve deeper into it (rent cap space for picks)?

    34. Hubert

      I don’t know how anyone could watch Zion and say he is anything less than the best prospect since Lebron. He’s just unbelievable.

      A friend of mine sent me a list of Duke prospects who failed in the NBA in order to temper my enthusiasm.

      In his defense, he is an excellent corporate attorney.

    35. DRed

      You could maybe argue that AD was a better prospect than Zion, but Zion is so much better offensively that I think it’s a difficult case to make convincingly. Zion scores much more frequently, even more efficiently, and he still looks to be a strong defender himself. I guess you could be more confident in AD’s ability to translate his college production to the NBA but that’s about it.

    36. bockadoo

      Sometimes a guy will do something that you can’t believe. In the recent game vs Boston College, Zion went down with a ridiculously low dribble zigzagging between two guys and layed it in. YouTube it. He is 285 lbs. It was something Mugsy friggin Bogues MAYBE could have done. Every game it’s another jaw dropping thing. I have never seen anyone like him. His second jump is the quickest i’ve ever seen. He is ULTRA skilled, both athletically and basketball wise. If we get the first pick and trade it/him for AD I will be done with this “franchise”.

    37. DRed

      Zion went down with a ridiculously low dribble zigzagging between two guys and layed it in.

      He was dribbling with his off hand too.

    38. ClashFan

      I’m on the tank/rebuild bus, so I definitely want to hang onto a chance to draft Zion. Even at 1/7, it is worth a chance.

      I really like AD, but there’s all kinds of uncertainty around him KD, etc. Discard Kanter and Mathews, keep the rest unless you can get a second rounder for Vonleh. Start DSJ, Frank (at the two or three), Knox, MitchRob, and either Trier/Dotson/Kornet/Vonleh. The others come off the bench.

      I’d like to see if DSJ can become more of a distributor. I’d like to see if, with him driving and dishing, Frank can just concentrate on shooting threes better and defending. Be patient and play all the kids a lot. See where you are after the season. Cross fingers in the draft lottery.

    39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      In the recent game vs Boston College, Zion went down with a ridiculously low dribble zigzagging between two guys and layed it in.

      https://youtu.be/ArirAFSYZYE?t=161

      That touch! Definitely more Kyrie than Mudiay. Bummer that his next play was a missed breakaway dunk…

    40. Farfa

      How many people would do a package right now based around Mitch and our 14% chance at Zion for AD?

      I would. AD is too good (and still young enough) to pass.

    41. Owen

      I get that Zion’s game may not translate all that well to the NBA. He doesn’t have an outside shot. An injury might completely wreck him relative to other players with, I don’t know, a broader skill set.

      But I just kind of think the small ball NBA isn’t ready for something like Zion. In a league with fewer and fewer legitimate defensive bigs, I don’t really see him having much trouble getting to the hoop 20 times per game.

      I don’t think trading all our draft picks and Mitch is the way to go, as good as AD unquestionably is. I prefer a slow rebuild.

    42. ClashFan

      @49
      They can’t have DSJ, I think, b/c he can’t be included in a trade with any other player right now. They’d have to do a separate deal with him and piss off the league.

      I’m a NO on the trade right now. Let’s see in the offseason.

      Btw, in my earlier post, Mudiay is a goner, too. I’d rather take a long look at DSJ and Frank (on the wing).

    43. mase

      I can’t believe we got two scoundrel for willy and not an offer fir vonleh . Are we over valuing our players?

    44. Hubert

      But I just kind of think the small ball NBA isn’t ready for something like Zion. In a league with fewer and fewer legitimate defensive bigs, I don’t really see him having much trouble getting to the hoop 20 times per game.

      It will be like those years when Shaq was the only center left in the league.

    45. thenoblefacehumper

      While we’re talking about Phil Jackson, I was just looking at the list of the 25 highest paid players in the NBA this season. Carmelo Anthony is 15th! Phil Jackson gave him a $28M guarantee for his age-34 season. Holy shit that guy was so fucking dumb it boggles the mind.

    46. ClashFan

      @53
      Willy was a cost controlled asset. Two more years on his very cheap deal.

      Vonley is a FA who might walk after the season. He might just be a rental.

    47. mase

      @56
      Yea but vonleh is better and can contribute in the post season on a min contract. That’s the ideal rental.

    48. d-mar

      I can’t believe we got two scoundrel for willy and not an offer fir vonleh . Are we over valuing our players?

      That’s a pretty damn funny auto correct!

    49. d-mar

      While we’re talking about Phil Jackson, I was just looking at the list of the 25 highest paid players in the NBA this season. Carmelo Anthony is 15th! Phil Jackson gave him a $28M guarantee for his age-34 season. Holy shit that guy was so fucking dumb it boggles the mind.

      As I said in yesterday’s thread, not only did Phil fuck up in his moves as a GM, but he actually did the opposite of what he was supposed to do in terms of attracting free agents. No one wanted to come to the Knicks and play the stupid triangle and deal with a GM who seemed to be barely interested in his job.

    50. Farfa

      Anyway, I don’t think anything big will happen today. Usually blockbuster trades don’t get completed at the 11th hour.

    51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      How many people would do a package right now based around Mitch and our 14% chance at Zion for AD?

      The problem is that AD’s salary will be 35% of the cap in 2020 — that’s $41.3M, escalating to $54.5M by year 5. He is a great player, and would turn the Knicks into a low-seed playoff team with just nominal improvements to the rest of the roster, but win curve is important here. Davis would be much more valuable to a team like the Bucks, Celtics or Raptors than the Knicks, Bulls or Cavs. You can see it in the team salaries:

      https://hoopshype.com/salaries/

      Miami is a team full of guys on bad, middle-class salaries, but after that you have a bunch of teams who are spending money because they’re contenders: GSW, OKC, TOR, HOU, POR, MIL, BOS. Of the league’s best teams, Denver and Philly are the real outliers at #17 and #20, but Philly has to make some big decisions about Butler and Harris this offseason, so they’ll be near the top of the pile one way or another.

      I think you hoard picks, try to find decent talent (not upside) with whatever you get, and be ready to trade assets only when you know that one of your rookie-scale contracts is going to be worthy of a max extension. If Knox, Trier or Frank looked like legitimate NBA players, I’d be less reticent to make a win-now move like shipping the two most valuable pieces for a guy commanding that kind of salary commitment.

    52. mase

      I’d probably trade Mitch and 14% chance at Zion plus the mavs picks fir ad right now.

      I don’t think they would though.and like you said having ad probably takes us out of the top three so there’s no way that an ad trade happens today. Nor would I do that trade if we landed Zion.

    53. MBunge

      the franchise is crippled.

      This seems to be one of the outgrowths of the Hinkie-ization of “smart” NBA fans: worrying about “crippling” the franchise when it is already one of the worst in the league and has been for years.

      The Knicks did not have anothe potential max player on the roster besides KP, so the worst case scenario is that giving KP a max would have limited the Knicks to only signing one other max player. Wow. What a disaster.

      Mike

    54. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Yeah, there’s also the fact that Davis probably turns this core into a 30-win team instead of a 15-win team, so the #1 becomes far less valuable. So it’s not going to happen, full stop.

    55. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      This seems to be one of the outgrowths of the Hinkie-ization of “smart” NBA fans: worrying about “crippling” the franchise when it is already one of the worst in the league and has been for years.

      The outgrowth of the Hinkiezation of the Sixers is that they have one of the best two-way starting fives in the league just three years after going 10-72. And you’re confusing “is” with “will be.” The Knicks are bad, therefore… make more bad moves? Huh?

      The Knicks did not have anothe potential max player on the roster besides KP, so the worst case scenario is that giving KP a max would have limited the Knicks to only signing one other max player. Wow. What a disaster.

      Yes, it would be a disaster. I know this is a crazy thing to say, but having two legitimate max players is better than having one legit max player and a max guy who has yet to break league-average shooting efficiency and is coming off an ACL tear and has never played an NBA game in April.

    56. Farfa

      Yeah, there’s also the fact that Davis probably turns this core into a 30-win team instead of a 15-win team, so the #1 becomes far less valuable

      That’s the real point. I guess.

    57. Hubert

      I’m assuming, Jowles, if we trade for AD that at the least Kyrie would join this summer. The chances of that is at least higher than 14%, I’d guess.

      And a good thing about AD is until his salary escalates, he’s at an incredible discount ($27mm). If you extend him after his option year, you’d have him and Kyrie $60mm, and that gives you incredible flexibility for two summers to get in all the talent you need.

      We agree that Zion & Mitchell at their respective salaries is ideal. The question is if the reward of that is worth the gamble, or do you leverage 14% odds into a greater guaranteed payoff.

    58. chriskZIPCODE

      If NO didn’t want our “deal centered around KP”, then i don’t think they are interested in only the pick and mitch. I find it hard to believe we didn’t offer kp and the pick.

    59. Farfa

      i don’t think they are interested in only the pick and mitch. I find it hard to believe we didn’t offer kp and the pick.

      But the scenario is totally different. KP allegedly didn’t want to sign an extension there, so it was a risk. If they take Mitch, Knox, another youngster and the 1st they’ll have all those players under control for at least three more years.

    60. Early Bird

      Getting AD cost controlled for a bit would definitely be worth it. If we did, our chances of signing other guys goes up significantly and we can probably find a way to fit 3 stars in before extending him. That’s worth it to me basketball-wise. Fan-wise, I’d love to see Robinson and a bunch of young guys.

      Cost for the trade would probably be Mitchell Robinson, 2-3 1st rounders, DSJr., plus whatever young flotsam interests the Pels.

    61. Hubert

      If NO didn’t want our “deal centered around KP”, then i don’t think they are interested in only the pick and mitch. I find it hard to believe we didn’t offer kp and the pick.

      In addition to what Farfa stated, Mitch and the pick is arguably a greater offer than KP and the pick.

      I don’t know what Dell Demps thinks, but I know if Knickerblogger did a trade value column, Mitch on his contract would definitely rank higher than KP on a max.

    62. Farfa

      if Knickerblogger did a trade value column

      If I could find a way to tag Brian, Mike and whoever else wanted to contribute, I think it’d make a fun exercise. Much better than the weak-ass stuff that Bill Simmons puts up nowadays.

    63. Brian Cronin

      But the scenario is totally different. KP allegedly didn’t want to sign an extension there, so it was a risk. If they take Mitch, Knox, another youngster and the 1st they’ll have all those players under control for at least three more years.

      That, though, is where I part ways with the “Extending KP at the max would be a disaster” crowd in that while I totally agree that a max is too much for KP, the NBA as a whole seems to disagree. In other words, if the Knicks had “disastrously” locked KP in for the max rookie extension before the season (which would have made no sense because of the whole cap space issue, but I’m just talking hypotheticals here), then they would likely have AD on the team now in exchange for KP and the pick. In other words, KP at the rookie max would be one of the most valuable trade assets in the NBA. It probably shouldn’t be, but it is. KP with the (admittedly very good for most teams) chance to get him to sign the rookie max was a valuable asset, ya know? An actual locked in KP would be even more so.

    64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      An actual locked in KP would be even more so.

      I don’t know how many franchises would test the waters on giving up assets for a guy who’d be disgruntled on day one. He clearly didn’t want to play for the Pels, so why would they give up anything of value for him? He knew he could get a max contract out of 20+ franchises. Any team that traded for him without a max commitment would find themselves losing him to a QO and the consequent UFA, right?

    65. Brian Cronin

      I don’t know how many franchises would test the waters on giving up assets for a guy who’d be disgruntled on day one. He clearly didn’t want to play for the Pels, so why would they give up anything of value for him? He knew he could get a max contract out of 20+ franchises. Any team that traded for him without a max commitment would find themselves losing him to a QO and the consequent UFA, right?

      Right, which is why an actual locked in KP would be more valuable. I’m saying that an “overpaid” KP is still a tremendously valuable trade asset, because the league is dumb.

    66. Jack Bauer

      New polling question

      Which scenario has the best chance of actually happening:

      – Knicks win Zion in the lottery

      – Knicks sign two max worthy players

      – Knicks make a reasonable trade to acquire Anthony Davis

    67. Brian Cronin

      What’s a reasonable trade?

      I’d rank the odds of those things happening as:

      1. Two max players
      2. Trade for AD
      3. Winning lottery

    68. er

      The Pelicans cant be this dumb. The Lakers offer is the best offer they will ever get. Ainge is trying to con them by dangling Tatum, when he is not going to trade him. Knicks by chance get Zion, how is Zion plus filler better than what the Lakers offered?

    69. Hubert

      That, though, is where I part ways with the “Extending KP at the max would be a disaster” crowd in that while I totally agree that a max is too much for KP, the NBA as a whole seems to disagree.

      The NBA was largely on board with maxing Melo, too.

      I don’t think KP on a max would be a disaster. It would just be suboptimal and dependent on many other factors.

      KP making $30mm over 4 years (i.e. the matched max) with Zion making $9.25 and Mitch making $1.5, for instance, could have been fine.

    70. ClashFan

      @78
      Tough to define a “reasonable” trade. I’d go with #2 – Knicks sign two “max worthy” players.

      First one is probably gonna be 1 in 7. So, slightly better chance of the two maxes.
      :-)

    71. Brian Cronin

      The Pelicans cant be this dumb. The Lakers offer is the best offer they will ever get. Ainge is trying to con them by dangling Tatum, when he is not going to trade him. Knicks by chance get Zion, how is Zion plus filler better than what the Lakers offered?

      Zion is better than everyone the Lakers offered.

      Ainge is a cagey guy, but the odds are that if he actually promises them Tatum in July, he will likely give them Tatum in July. These GMs tend not to break promises with other GMs. They rely on trust with other GMs to do business.

    72. The KnickerBlogger's Apprentice

      Right, which is why an actual locked in KP would be more valuable. I’m saying that an “overpaid” KP is still a tremendously valuable trade asset, because the league is dumb.

      Had never thought of this and am persuaded by your hypothetical, but would you agree that “actual locked in KP” is probably only more valuable in this limbo state, i.e. until he gets back on the court?

      I’m guessing KP will not look like a max player on the court (proving most on this board correct), and his current perceived value around the league will wane quickly.

    73. ClashFan

      @81
      The problem with the Melo contract was not the money, it was the NTC.

      I’d prefer that they sign and traded him (to Chicago), but just from the point of view of the contract, the NTC was nuts.

    74. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      If KP doesn’t go far beyond what he already is, a 5/$156M deal for him is going to be a catastrophe. The reason the trade so much sense was specifically because we didn’t have a bird in the hand. Besides, with KP at his max getting the other two stars we need in your formula would’ve been near impossible.

      You are “asserting” this because you believe your favorite box score metrics accurately reflect his on court value. I fully understand that those stats suggest paying him the max would be a mistake.

      I am asserting that those are the same boxscore stats that said Kanter was a star player (as some here believed at the time we made that trade) and those stats are just as laughably and ridiculously wrong about KP in the opposite direction.

      Stats matter.

      The public models that try to aggregate boxscore metrics into a single number that measures value correctly are sometimes GARBAGE.

      I’m not arguing that KP is a superstar. I’m arguing that he’s a significant plus player on defense and already has the skillset to be a significant plus player on offense with better coaching and better use of his skills. That’s a max player even if it’s not a superstar.

      There are are some incompetent owners, presidents, GMs and coaches in the league. However, sometimes it pays to wonder why dozens of people see value in a player (including the best and brightest) that you don’t (and vice versa as our experience with Kanter obviously shows now).

      Sometime the consensus is wrong. But sometimes your own way of measuring and thinking about value based on some public web page may be wrong.

    75. ptmilo

      kp was never taking the qo (and won’t with the mavs). i don’t care if he was traded to be a ranch hand for phil in montana, worst case was a 2/1 offer sheet.

    76. Brian Cronin

      kp was never taking the qo (and won’t with the mavs). i don’t care if he was traded to be a ranch hand for phil in montana, worst case was a 2/1 offer sheet.

      While I agree, I can understand why a team like New Orleans wouldn’t even want to take on even the possibility of him taking the QO. They were in a very specific situation where they have to be extremely risk-averse.

    77. ClashFan

      I’d happily be a ranch hand for Phil in Montana for KP’s QO. What is that, $4.5 million? Yeah, hire me, Phil!
      :-)

    78. ptmilo

      They were in a very specific situation where they have to be extremely risk-averse.

      sure but a chandler parsons 2/1 is enough to scare them even if they discounted the qo to zero as they should. they’d be a year away from kp trade rumors on his contract expiration.

    79. Hubert

      Ainge is a cagey guy, but the odds are that if he actually promises them Tatum in July, he will likely give them Tatum in July. These GMs tend not to break promises with other GMs. They rely on trust with other GMs to do business.

      Which is probably why the reports that he won’t do that are true. His promise seems to be “one way or another, I will top that Lakers offer, but I can’t include specific players now.”

    80. Brian Cronin

      sure but a chandler parsons 2/1 is enough to scare them even if they discounted the qo to zero as they should. they’d be a year away from kp trade rumors on his contract expiration.

      That’s a fair concern, as well.

    81. JK47

      KP is:
      1. Injury prone
      2. Fatigue prone
      3. Not really all that productive

      He needs to overcome all three of those problems to be worth a max contract. It’s a bad bet in my opinion. He has played in 186 of a possible 328 games on his first contract, that’s 56% of all games, and he has not cracked a .550 TS% in a league where the average TS% is .558.

      I’m sleeping pretty well at night knowing he was moved for two 1RPs and the privilege to not pay him $156M.

    82. Brian Cronin

      Which is probably why the reports that he won’t do that are true. His promise seems to be “one way or another, I will top that Lakers offer, but I can’t include specific players now.”

      Agreed, but that surprises me, honestly. Just fucking promise to trade Tatum. Who gives a shit if Kyrie leaves if you get AD? You can just sign Kemba.

    83. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      My post @27 got cut off but it’s not hard to see where I was going. We didn’t have good, cost-controlled assets besides KP because Phil Jackson didn’t want to, so drafting him was not the start of a rebuild.

      We disagree.

      Phil blew up the team mid season and put Melo on the shelf to tank and get a high lottery pick. It was an all out tank year that the Knicks screwed up in the last few games or they would have gotten Towns.

      People are already forgetting we didn’t have a 1st round pick the year before AND the year after KP! It was prior management’s fault that we didn’t have a 1st round pick in 2014 and 2016 or we’d be way further along now.

    84. Hubert

      Going from memory here, not doing a side-by-side, but Mirotic for virtually nothing seems better than paying an arm and a leg for Tobias Harris.

    85. er

      Which is probably why the reports that he won’t do that are true. His promise seems to be “one way or another, I will top that Lakers offer, but I can’t include specific players now.”

      Exactly. He saying “maybe” Tatum right now. How can you bank on that if you are Dell Demps?

      And i understand about Zion, but the lakers are offering 2-4 picks in addition to the baby Lakers. Zion is not a sure thing in the NBA as great as he is

    86. Bruno Almeida

      Amazing move for the Bucks, Mirotic fits their team and style perfectly and is actually very good, he seems like a perfect fit for a team that wants to shoot 3s and create spacing for Giannis. Really really solid.

    87. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Zion is not a sure thing in the NBA as great as he is

      Zion a sure thing confirmed

    88. Brian Cronin

      I think Tobias Harris is a much better player than Mirotic, but yeah, getting Mirotic for a bunch of seconds is an insanely good return for Milwaukee.

    89. JK47

      It was an all out tank year that the Knicks screwed up in the last few games or they would have gotten Towns.

      It was an accidental tank year in which Phil Jackson thought Jose Calderon and Sam Dalembert running the triangle with newly triangulated Melo was going to lead to triangle-shaped wins.

      If it was an all out tank year, Phil would have traded useful pieces like Tyson Chandler for draft picks and/or young players, not 50-year old Jose Calderon (he was supposed to be a good triangle PG) and about-to-be-out-of-the-NBA Sam Dalembert. I don’t know how many times we need to go over this, Phil DID NOT REBUILD that first season. He tried to win. He just sucked so bad at it that the Knicks stumbled into a high draft pick, “blind squirrel finds nut” style.

      I’ll say it again: a TRUE tank, a TRUE rebuild would have involved flipping veterans for assets. That’s not what happened, and that’s a big reason why this rebuild– a REAL rebuild– is prolly gonna take forever unless some miracle happens. He had the means to actually acquire some assets, but instead he went for the bag of magic Jose Calderon beans.

      No matter what you say, Phil Jackson is a moron.

    90. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Good trade for the Bucks, for sure. Jason Smith is irrelevant and Stanley Johnson is a trashcan on offense. Mirotic will help their 3PT shooting, which is just about the only average part of that team. Takes some minutes from Ilyasova, which will be a boon for their offense. Plus he’s expiring so he’s a rental for what looks like a Finals run.

    91. thenoblefacehumper

      That, though, is where I part ways with the “Extending KP at the max would be a disaster” crowd in that while I totally agree that a max is too much for KP, the NBA as a whole seems to disagree. In other words, if the Knicks had “disastrously” locked KP in for the max rookie extension before the season (which would have made no sense because of the whole cap space issue, but I’m just talking hypotheticals here), then they would likely have AD on the team now in exchange for KP and the pick.

      Wait, don’t we know that NO explicitly rejected a KP-based offer?

    92. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      He has played in 186 of a possible 328 games on his first contract, that’s 56% of all games, and he has not cracked a .550 TS% in a league where the average TS% is .558.

      He’s also OBVIOUSLY a big plus as a help and paint defender that could easily raise his TS% if he had a coach that told him increase his 3 point shots and also ran some plays for him at the rim (actually any play would help given how much ISO he did last year).

      If you want to bash Phil, that’s a legitimate complaint. Right or wrong, Phil still believes there’s value in “good” mid range shots because if you do it the right way you get more offensive rebounds. If net extra free throws and possessions it’s comparable to taking more 3s at a TEAM LEVEL. However, the individual taking the extra mid range shots will have a lower TS% (and Kanter gets an extra OREB here or there and puts it back up).

      I’m not sure anyone has the math on this right. They all look at aggregate stats from every team and all sorts of locations (which is ridiculously wrong). There is a strategy to it that’s team specific. You’d have to look at how well Phil Jackson teams do with OREBs compared to others and control for lots of other things.

    93. Owen

      how is Zion plus filler better than what the Lakers offered?

      Well, Zion is a million times better than anyone on the Lakers other than Lebron.

      I honestly can’t understand this trade deadline. Mirotic for two seconds and the Otto Porter deal set against the Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes deals. Just makes no sense to me. Really, no sense.

    94. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @104

      Nice spin. lmao

      Phil started the year “hopeful” that getting rid of all the trash personalities and players that wanted out would leave him with a competitive team (he got rid Felton, JR, Shumpert, and Chandler). He was wrong. However, once it was clear it wouldn’t he blew the team up and tanked because we had a 1st round draft pick that year. He landed KP. That’s the start of our current rebuild.

      You can disagree with his approach from there (which was to try to use draft picks, trades, and free agency instead of just draft picks), but it’s easy to see why he tried to use all avenues because we didn’t have a 1st round pick the next year either.

      The rebuild starts when you land your first high lottery pick no matter how and why you got there or how badly multiple management teams screwed up after that.

    95. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      He’s also OBVIOUSLY a big plus as a help and paint defender that could easily raise his TS% if he had a coach that told him increase his 3 point shots and also ran some plays for him at the rim (actually any play would help given how much ISO he did last year).

      Well, we’re going to find out about all of those “coulds” and “ifs,” aren’t we?

    96. Hubert

      Wait, don’t we know that NO explicitly rejected a KP-based offer?

      To paraphrase Eli Cash, “Well, everyone knows the Knicks passed on extending Kristaps Porzingis so they could take advantage of his $17mm cap hold and sign free agents. What Brian’s post presupposes is, what if they didn’t?”

    97. thenoblefacehumper

      It’s amazing that Phil Jackson has said explicitly “my goal was to get to .500 and from there magic would happen” and yet Strat still insists he was actually going about some kind of hybrid rebuild that only the enlightened can understand lmao.

      I mean the guy signed the largest contract in the NBA (with a full NTC). He signed Joakim Noah to a 4/$72M deal. He traded a draft pick to get off a $3M salary. He chose one year of Afflalo and Williams over a boatload of assets from the Kings.

      The guy was as interested in a rebuild as I am in 17th century Russian literature.

    98. Hubert

      Wait, four second round picks? That is actually a nice haul for a rental.

      We can’t get one for Kanter or Jordan??

    99. thenoblefacehumper

      To paraphrase Eli Cash, “Well, everyone knows the Knicks passed on extending Kristaps Porzingis so they could take advantage of his $17mm cap hold and sign free agents. What Brian’s post presupposes is, what if they didn’t?”

      I don’t see a big difference in value between KP with an already signed 5/$156M deal and KP who’s going to sign a 5/$156M deal in a few months. I think the Pelicans rightly didn’t regard KP on a $31M AAV deal as good value for AD. I suppose one could argue they were only concerned with the QO possibility, but no one seems to believe that was credible (which is likely true).

    100. Hubert

      The guy was as interested in a rebuild as I am in 17th century Russian literature.

      Fun fact: there is virtually no 17th century Russian literature. The Cossacks did not breed many authors.

    101. Donnie Walsh

      It’s funny cause there is a class of player in the league that is boring and forgettable yet productive but boring and totally forgettable yet quietly productive but boring and plays a boring position and rather dull to watch and boring yet has good numbers even though they are 6’ 8” and kind of invisible.

      Four of the five players that make up this class were traded in the past 24 hours! (Chris Middleton is safe, for now:)

    102. Donnie Walsh

      Amazing that NiK Stauskas has lived in 4 different cities this week already, and will probably be in Beijing by Saturday.

    103. wetbandit

      Woj: Marc Gasol to Toronto.

      What’s their starting five now?? If they have Lowry, Kawhi, Siakam, and Gasol, sounds prettay prettay good.

    104. Hubert

      Wait, four second round picks? That is actually a nice haul for a rental.

      Ok so one has virtually no value (Denver’s 2019), one probably won’t have value (Milwaukee’s 2020), but two are excellent (Washington’s 2020 and 2021).

      That would seem to indicate there’s a good market for Vonleh.

    105. d-mar

      Wow, Toronto getting Marc Gasol. They’re going all in this year, which they have to given that they may only be renting Kawhi.

      And I’m enjoying the hell out of watching all the Eastern Conference contenders improve themselves…except the Celtics.

    106. Owen

      Ok, four seconds makes some sense. They will get the chance to let a lot of Euros mull coming to New Orleans.

      This has been a crazy fun trade deadline. Makes the MLB offseason look like the farce it is.

    107. Grocer

      The rebuild starts when you land your first high lottery pick no matter how and why you got there or how badly multiple management teams screwed up after that.

      This is good work. From redefining basic concepts to tenuous blame-shifting I really appreciate the effort you’re putting in to improve your efficiency. All it needs is a spurious analogy, some unrelated jargon, and some pleading about how the eye-test is the most important thing because perfect knowledge is impossible and you’d have your ideal post.

      Oh! Also an appeal to authority in the face of all evidence. So still some work to do.

    108. Brian Cronin

      Wait, don’t we know that NO explicitly rejected a KP-based offer?

      The report was that they would have accepted it had it not been for the uncertainty over KP. They didn’t want to trade AD for more uncertainty. A signed KP is essentially exactly what they’re looking for for AD (they really don’t want to completely rebuild, which is why Tatum is the Godfather offer in their minds).

    109. Brian Cronin

      Wow, Toronto getting Marc Gasol. They’re going all in this year, which they have to given that they may only be renting Kawhi.

      I love Marc Gasol, but I don’t know that Toronto improves themselves that much with Gasol and they gave up a lot to get him.

    110. Hubert

      except the Celtics

      Reports indicate they’re waiting for us to buy out Kanter.

      I don’t understand this buyout business. These players have to give up money to be bought out, right? How much of ~$7 million is Kanter willing to give up to sign with another team this spring, and what are the odds that much money is so important to MSG that they’d let him join a rival for free?

      Fuck these vultures offering us nothing for Kanter, Jordan, and Matthews.

    111. wetbandit

      I love Marc Gasol, but I don’t know that Toronto improves themselves that much with Gasol and they gave up a lot to get him.

      What did they give up, thought no one broke that part yet.

    112. Brian Cronin

      I don’t understand this buyout business. These players have to give up money to be bought out, right?

      It’s usually barely anything.

    113. ess-dog

      Well, I guess that Celtics offer is a good one: basically Tatum, Robert Williams, Smart, and 3 1RPs.

      I think we’d have to do Mitch, Zion, and 2 or 3 1RPs to beat that. Maybe Mitch/Morant and 4 1RPs? But maybe that’s not best idea for such a raw team.

      It just sucks though. I don’t want Ainge to get his way.

    114. Brian Cronin

      What did they give up, thought no one broke that part yet.

      Jonas Valanciunas, Delon Wright, CJ Milles and a 2024 second-round pick.

      Wright seems like a lot to me to give up to upgrade from JV to Gasol.

    115. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Well, we’re going to find out about all of those “coulds” and “ifs,” aren’t we?

      We will, including the very real injury risk (something I argued was true and got criticized for before he even got hurt).

      I do have to add one thing. If you are evaluating him with a broken model now and you are evaluate him with a broken model later, you’ll still be wrong.

      That was a point I used to make to the Wins Produced crew.

      They’d say “so and so” was a great college prospect because he scored highly on their model (no doubt he couldn’t shoot a lick but took advantage of an occasional dunk and could rebound like crazy). Then when he couldn’t make it off the bench in the pros and was soon out of the league they’d argue they were right because he still scored highly on their broken model. Rather than admit their model was flawed it was that every coach that had him (including coach of the year winners and candidates) was an idiot that didn’t recognize his value.

    116. Hubert

      It’s usually barely anything.

      Then why would a $4 billion team like us be expected to do it? Good will? Roster spots? Fuck that.

    117. DamnThisTeam

      @ 127

      The Memphis Grizzlies are finalizing a trade to send center Marc Gasol to the Toronto Raptors, league sources tell ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski. Toronto is planning to send Jonas Valanciunas, Delon Wright, CJ Milles and a 2024 second-round pick to the the Grizzlies

    118. Brian Cronin

      Then why would a $4 billion team like us be expected to do it? Good will? Roster spots? Fuck that.

      Yeah, good will basically. They don’t want Kanter. They don’t gain a benefit from his Bird Rights. So they might as well let him play somewhere else. Same with Matthews.

    119. wetbandit

      Yeah, not sure giving up Valanciunas and Wright is something, Miles is meh, and the pick is meh. It’s a win-now, move the needle a tiny bit positive move.
      Their five is Lowry, Siakam, Kawhi, Ibaka, and Gasol. That’s a damn fine team in the East, and can possibly make it to Golden State.

    120. Hubert

      think we’d have to do Mitch, Zion, and 2 or 3 1RPs to beat that.

      I don’t mean to shout, but this is the second time I’ve had to say this:

      THERE IS NO “ZION AND ANYTHING” FOR DAVIS!!!!

      I’ll go one step further: If we had Zion, I’d want AD and picks to trade Zion.

    121. Brian Cronin

      Not that the players that they are giving up are some amazing players, but the idea of the Rockets, who are presumably legit title contenders this year, dealing away decent back of the rotation guys to get under the luxury tax is gross.

    122. ess-dog

      Yeah if we actually get the first pick, I assume we’re keeping Zion, so it’s really not an option. But we could maaaaybe swing a deal with Morant/Barrett if we land on them…

    123. Bruno Almeida

      Delon Wright has been ass this year, and he’s already almost 27, and Valanciunas is inconsistent, I like the move for the Raptors. Gasol at his best can help this team more than JV did.

    124. JK47

      I’m not using any “model” to evaluate KP, I’m using common sense. He scores at below average efficiency, rebounds poorly, hasn’t stayed healthy, has had fatigue issues and has not developed much season to season. He is a very good rim protector and overall defender.

      Might he fix all of his issues? Perhaps. But he has to improve AND stay healthy to be worth the contract he’s gonna get. I stand by the evaluation that KP’s perceived value was higher than his actual value, and that the trade made sense.

    125. Hubert

      Besides buying somone out opens a roster spot

      We have ten wins. We can find a roster spot without helping a rival if we need to. Here, have a Hezonja.

    126. Brian Cronin

      We have ten wins. We can find a roster spot without helping a rival if we need to. Here, have a Hezonja.

      But when you have ten wins, do you really have any “rivals”?

    127. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      The rebuild begins after the “win now” team you assembled three months ago starts out 8-42

      Are you arguing that Phil made some bad mistakes?

      We already agree on that.

      I’m arguing that we are 4 years into the rebuild and this management team was handed a team that won 31 games, KP, Willy, Frank, Dotson, Kornet, and 20 million of cap space (even though it was missing 2 first round picks in the prior 4 years) and in 2 years turned it into the worst team in the NBA, no KP, no Willy, and a prayer that they can convince a temperamental 30 year old superstar (31 by the start of next season) to leave one of the best teams in NBA history to join one of the worst teams in NBA history.

      I get all the Phil criticisms. Many are valid and a few I disagree with.

      However, for the life of me I don’t how current management gets a pass. They brought in some of the worst players in the NBA thinking they were actually good and drafted a player that is probably a couple of years away from being a legitimate rotation player and at worst a two-way bust. They’ve been terrible. Even if they get lucky in free agency they’ve been terrible.

      I should try a little experiment. I’ll sing their praises every day for a month and I bet by the end of it everyone here hates their guts because I like them. :-)

    128. Brian Cronin

      The Clippers are trading Mike Muscala to the Lakers for Michael Beasley and Ivica Zubac

      There is no way that Muscala is better than Zubac. That’s nuts. It’s good to see the Lake Show back up Walton, though, in the Bease-beef.

    129. Brian Cronin

      tell me the fucking lakers didn’t give away zubac so they can sign melo

      It sounds that way, doesn’t it? Woj’s “explanation” for the move sounds insane, “The deal opens a roster spot and gives the Lakers a chance to sign a player in the buyout market. Muscala gives Lakers some shooting too.” You know what also “opens a roster spot”? Cutting Beasley!

    130. Brian Cronin

      Another really nice move by the Clippers. Zubac can play and since he costs nothing, he doesn’t affect their cap space really.

    131. Brian Cronin

      By the way, as an aside, I’m really pissed off at this whole, “Team X is going to be so expensive with luxury tax payments.” These teams almost inherently spend way under their ability to spend due to the cap constraints. Most teams in the NBA can easily afford a $160 million payroll (with tax included).

    132. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      He scores at below average efficiency, rebounds poorly, hasn’t stayed healthy, has had fatigue issues and has not developed much season to season.

      We agree on the heath risks.

      I think his defense is underrated in the overall package, his rebounding is partly a function of playing on the perimeter instead inside and partly his very weak body (same with Robinson now), his efficiency is partly a function of system/role and coaching, and his ability to bring big men out on the perimeter is not being considered at all.

      Other people are looking at past data.

      I am asking why the data is what it is, what can be changed, can it be changed easily, what are people missing etc.. I see more value than the consensus here. The only thing I fully agree on is the injury and health risks.

    133. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Wow, I haven’t see a lot of Zubac but the little I did see made me think he was pretty good piece. I’m going to guess Magic has seized control from Pelinka. lol

    134. thenoblefacehumper

      The rebuild begins after the “win now” team you assembled three months ago starts out 8-42

      Don’t misrepresent the Zen Master’s grand plan to suit your narrative. The rebuild begins when you sign a 30-year old to the largest contract in the NBA, and in order to rebuild properly you need to make sure you give him a full no trade clause.

      Then you wait for the team you assembled with the expressed purpose of making the playoffs to go 8-42, and trade its spare parts for cap relief as opposed to anything resembling a real asset.

      You proceed to sign Arron Afflalo and Derrick Willaims to 1 + 1 contracts using more cap space than a rival team uses to get multiple first round picks. You know, in order to rebuild.

      After that, it is imperative that you trade for Derrick Rose and sign a 31-year old coming off a 635 minute season to a 4/$72M deal. This must be followed by an immediate signing of a 29 year old career mediocrity to a 4/$48M deal. The good thing about the latter contract is you can trade it for a first round pick whenever you want, if need be (the need won’t arise though because at this point you have a guaranteed contender assuming the players use the triangle offense correctly).

      This is the definitive guide to rebuilding using a combination of draft picks, trades, and free agency.

    135. Brian Cronin

      Wait, wha? “The Magic are sending Jonathan Simmons, a first-round and a second-round pick to the Sixers, per sources.”

      If I’m a shitty team like Orlando, I don’t think I deal a first rounder for Fultz.

      EDITED TO ADD: Ah, it’s an OKC first rounder. That’s fine, then. Good risk by Orlando. I’m surprised, though, that Philly would deal Fultz for something other than a player who could make a real difference this season. Simmons really isn’t that.

    136. thenoblefacehumper

      The report was that they would have accepted it had it not been for the uncertainty over KP. They didn’t want to trade AD for more uncertainty. A signed KP is essentially exactly what they’re looking for for AD (they really don’t want to completely rebuild, which is why Tatum is the Godfather offer in their minds).

      I didn’t see anything indicating they would have accepted KP if he was already signed (I still find that very hard to believe because there’s effectively no difference), but it’s also far from clear that this theoretical trade would’ve been a good idea for us anyway.

    137. Hubert

      A first and a second is a decent return for Fultz, depending on how protected the 1 is.

      EDITED AFTER SEEING BRIAN’S EDIT: Never mind.

    138. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Wow, the Fultz era is over! Fultz to Orlando!

      wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

      I swear to god if the Sixers get the 2019 1st unprotected, and they get Zion… I don’t even know what I’ll do.

      I’ll… I’ll… become a Sixers fan

      edit: it’s the Thunder first in 2020, protected 1-20, conveys as 2022 and 2023 2RPs if Thunder keep it

      I never said what is written above

      That is a TERRIBLE haul for a #1 overall pick. What the fuck?

    139. Brian Cronin

      I didn’t see anything indicating they would have accepted KP if he was already signed (I still find that very hard to believe because there’s effectively no difference), but it’s also far from clear that this theoretical trade would’ve been a good idea for us anyway.

      They’re in the midst of trading their star player because he won’t stay there, so it doesn’t make sense to acquire a guy who can technically leave in a year himself. Now, if he’s locked in for five years, it’s a different story.

    140. Owen

      Zubac seems pretty goodish to be involved in something like this. Is he a no-defense Kanter type?

      Great nicknames by the way….

      (Zu-Block, Zublocka, Big Z, Zu, Zupac, Zu Alcindor)

      Also, under the radar, but Lavert back for Nets

    141. ess-dog

      Good trade for the Sixers. Simmons can pitch in right now and they get a low 1st to boot. I think it’s a fair risk for Orlando too. They can wait on Fultz.

    142. Farfa

      Knicks officially buying Matthews out.

      “Hey David, could you please start Wesley so mayyybe someone thinks we’re holding onto him? Please? Pretty please?”

    143. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Ok the Magic pick is OKC’s 2020 pick apparently with protections.

      I seriously thought they gave PHI a 10% chance at Zion and I almost died

    144. er

      EDITED TO ADD: Ah, it’s an OKC first rounder. That’s fine, then. Good risk by Orlando. I’m surprised, though, that Philly would deal Fultz for something other than a player who could make a real difference this season. Simmons really isn’t that.

      Simmons fills a need for a guard defender though. That was a major hole with JJ in the lineup and Ben at point. still its a strange trade

    145. Hubert

      Would you have given Philadlephia Vonleh and Dallas’ 2021 pick (protected 1-20) for Fultz? Or do you think we have enough bad PGs from the 2017 draft?

    146. Brian Cronin

      I would have thought that the Matthews buyout market would have involved teams like the Sixers and the Rockets. The Pacers seem like such an odd choice for him.

    147. Hubert

      Releasing Kanter, too. Guess we’re really into good will.

      If I don’t see that we got at least one 2nd round pick for Vonleh I’m going to be mad.

    148. Brian Cronin

      At least we can keep the dream alive for KD and Irving signing here and then trading for AD!

    149. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Good trade for the Sixers. Simmons can pitch in right now and they get a low 1st to boot. I think it’s a fair risk for Orlando too. They can wait on Fultz.

      I don’t disagree that it’s a decent return on Fultz today, and the 2017 class looks pretty flawed as a whole (I like Collins, Bell, Ball, Allen, Tatum, Mitchell and Fox, but none of them scream #1 overall pick to me), but turning the #1 overall into what could be three 2RPs isn’t good.

      I have always believed the rumor that Fultz had a dirtbike/crotch rocket accident that ruined his shoulder, but to get that little out of an enormously-valuable asset is pretty pathetic. I can’t imagine what that pick was worth before the draft. Three firsts? A pick swap and a star player?

    150. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @167

      I agree that NO was not going to take KP unless he was 100% signed and happy to be there. But I’m not sure it makes sense to argue that had they extended KP they could have traded him there. Their whole strategy was to ADD at least one star free agent to KP depending on what it would take to move Lee and/or Hardaway. They had no intention of trading him. Anything that even hints at that is bullshit. What happened is that they put together a team that sucked even worse than last year (not intentionally), KP got salty again over that (and probably yet to be disclosed dysfunction), and they realized they were at risk and had to move him now to get a decent return.

      What we should be asking is how it came to this so we make sure it never happens again.

      The answer is that in this environment very good players want to win and if you don’t make progress you risk losing them.

    151. Brian Cronin

      I can’t imagine what that pick was worth before the draft. Three firsts? A pick swap and a star player?

      The Celtics allegedly offered it for KP straight up.

    152. Hubert

      Did we fuck up the basic shit again?

      Seems like it.

      But don’t worry. I’m sure a team that fucks up all the basic shit was able to secretly put together an extremely complicated under the table deal for one of the league’s best players.

    153. Brian Cronin

      Did we fuck up the basic shit again?

      I think that this time, at least, it wasn’t for lack of trying.

    154. ess-dog

      So basically:

      – Raps, Bucks, and Sixers make big moves to try and grab the East crown THIS year.

      – Celts and Lakers now have a bunch of sour players, which I love.

      – And we keep cruisin’ toward Zion, mon.

    155. Brian Cronin

      @178 No. Fultz is a total non-starter for me, esp at $10 million per next year.

      While the money is likely the worst part of it, I also think that his shot is just broken for good. So yeah, hard pass. I’m still surprised to see the Sixers trade him for basically filler, though.

    156. thenoblefacehumper

      They’re in the midst of trading their star player because he won’t stay there, so it doesn’t make sense to acquire a guy who can technically leave in a year himself. Now, if he’s locked in for five years, it’s a different story.

      But as you said, the difference is only technical. Most people seem to think KP, coming off a season in which he didn’t play a game despite the fact that the normal timetable would’ve enabled him to, is taking the damn money. I guess they could be worried about him signing a 2 + 1 or something, but like I said I’d be interested to see anything that indicates this was actually the difference.

    157. Z-man

      My initial impression is that the East got stronger relative to the West overall, but I haven’t looked at it too closely. Thoughts?

    158. Brian Cronin

      But don’t worry. I’m sure a team that fucks up all the basic shit was able to secretly put together an extremely complicated under the table deal for one of the league’s best players.

      I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your shade there, but weren’t you the biggest supporter of “they’re getting KD” early this year?

    159. swiftandabundant

      We are not 4 years into a rebuild. Being shitty isn’t the same as rebuilding. We didn’t start a rebuild until we traded Melo last year and even then, you could argue we didn’t REALLY start a rebuild until KP went down. Once KP went down we absolutely did the right thing by making the team as shitty as possible and filling the team with youth. The idea was to get a top pick and pair them with KP but once KP soured on that plan, we again did the right thing and traded him for picks and cap relief.

    160. thenoblefacehumper

      What happened is that they put together a team that sucked even worse than last year (not intentionally), KP got salty again over that (and probably yet to be disclosed dysfunction), and they realized they were at risk and had to move him now to get a decent return.

      I’ve criticized this front office for plenty of things, but every statement they put out this summer screamed “WE ARE TANKING.” The real indications of trying to be a playoff team are things like signing players to 4/$72M deals.

      What we should be asking is how it came to this so we make sure it never happens again.

      I hope we continue to trade overrated players for multiple first round picks.

    161. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      If I don’t see that we got at least one 2nd round pick for Vonleh I’m going to be mad.

      Don’t be shocked if the best players we sign in fee agency next year are Vonleh and Jordan. :-)

      I’m hoping for a lot better than that, but I’m still not buying that Durant is coming to this cesspool at 31 years of age. I’m not even 100% sure I want him at 31 unless he’s coming with another superstar who is still very young and we make a major score in the draft. Durant and Kyrie is not enough to contend for a championship and Durant’s window is a little tight.

      My scenario for Durant was teaming him with KP and then using a 1st rounder to also move Hardaway and add another star player.

    162. Z-man

      @190 but now that the Sixers are all in, having $10 mill of dead weight on the cap is not good. You almost have to treat him like an overpaid vet (e.g. Lance Thomas) and get whatever you can get for him. His 1st pick aura is long gone.

    163. ClashFan

      Maybe this new FO has a “Two Second Round Picks Minimum” philosophy when trading away guys?

      Hear me out: they dealt Willy for two second rounders. They got two picks (one a first, the other probably a first) in the KP deal. The Mudiay deal for them was all about getting Mudiay (who they really like for some reason), so okay to give a pick away in that one.

      They did not trade OQ last year when you’d think they could get a 2nd for him. No deals for Vonleh, Mudiay, Matthews, etc.

      Hmm.
      :-)

    164. Hubert

      I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your shade there, but just noting that weren’t you the biggest supporter of “they’re getting KD” early this year?

      A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

      I kid, of course. I’m not out on Durant to NY. But I always let new evidence alter my belief if it’s compelling.

      My optimism surrounding Durant earlier in the season was based on the premise that I didn’t know if Perry and Mills were bad yet. I suppose I still don’t. But watching a pro like West play his cards masterfully while we, once again, sat on expiring assets is discouraging.

      And I don’t agree that it wasn’t due to lack of trying. Decent players on expiring contracts were bringing in HAULS. Harris netted a superstar return. Mirotic netted an incredible 4 second round picks. I just don’t belief that Vonleh (and maybe even Mudiay) couldn’t have gotten us anything.

    165. DRed

      One thing that’s consistent with our front offices is that you absolutely cannot trust the process.

    166. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      I’ve criticized this front office for plenty of things, but every statement they put out this summer screamed “WE ARE TANKING.” The real indications of trying to be a playoff team are things like signing players to 4/$72M deals.

      Every statement they put out was that they were trying to win games while developing young players. In fact, Fizdale said as much AGAIN in the last week. They started out trying to win games and instill a winning culture. They did not expect to make the playoffs,but they were hoping to and expecting to win games. They failed because some of the players they let go or traded were decent/good and every player they brought in sucks other than Vonleh (he is at least useful). So they were horrible. It’s simple. It doesn’t have to be about Phil. He’s gone. These guys SUCK SUCK SUCK at evaluating basketball productivity.

    167. DRed

      Strat remember when you were happy we kept oquinn because we could resign him. What lesson did you learn from that? :)

    168. Brian Cronin

      I love these little odd WojBomb, “Detroit will be among the most aggressive teams in trying to sign guard Wayne Ellington in the buyout market, league sources tell ESPN.”

      Uhhh…okay?

    169. Brian Cronin

      Ooooo…Robin Lopez is going to get bought out. He’d be a great fit on a lot of playoff contenders. Where do you think he would fit best?

    170. thenoblefacehumper

      Every statement they put out was that they were trying to win games while developing young players.

      Yeah that’s what you say when you’re tanking

    171. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      @190 but now that the Sixers are all in, having $10 mill of dead weight on the cap is not good. You almost have to treat him like an overpaid vet (e.g. Lance Thomas) and get whatever you can get for him. His 1st pick aura is long gone.

      That’s fair. I’m not sure what their cap situation is with Harris and Butler, except that they will be easily in the luxury tax realm shortly. I assume they’ll give a max to Butler, but does that mean they have no space for Harris?

    172. Brian Cronin

      That’s fair. I’m not sure what their cap situation is with Harris and Butler, except that they will be easily in the luxury tax realm shortly. I assume they’ll give a max to Butler, but does that mean they have no space for Harris?

      It doesn’t affect their ability to re-sign both guys, but it does help with the luxury tax payments and I believe it can also make it so that if Butler leaves, they can sign one more max guy while using Harris’ $22 million cap hold.

    173. thenoblefacehumper

      And I don’t agree that it wasn’t due to lack of trying. Decent players on expiring contracts were bringing in HAULS. Harris netted a superstar return. Mirotic netted an incredible 4 second round picks. I just don’t belief that Vonleh (and maybe even Mudiay) couldn’t have gotten us anything

      I mean dude, all of those guys are waaaaaaaay better than any of our garage sale guys. I really don’t think we turned down any offers for our garbage expiring players. I think the offers weren’t there. KOQ was very productive. These guys…well, not so much.

    174. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      I just don’t belief that Vonleh (and maybe even Mudiay) couldn’t have gotten us anything.

      I’d bet anything that Vonleh would net a 2nd rounder.

      I’d take even money and say he’d net two 2nd rounders.

      If I had to speculate, I’d guess they were asking for a 1st and decided if they don’t get that they’d stay with him. If they strike out on Durant they are going to have to use that cap space on someone. Walsh learned that lesson. Phil learned that lesson. There’s a good chance so will Perry. Better to give a fair amount to Vonleh than an unfair amount to Kemba or someone like that to save face.

    175. Grocer

      Yeah that’s what you say when you’re tanking

      Because if you don’t say that the league fines you and eventually steps in to force a new GM on you.

    176. Brian Cronin

      I mean dude, all of those guys are waaaaaaaay better than any of our garage sale guys. I really don’t think we turned down any offers for our garbage expiring players. I think the offers weren’t there. KOQ was very productive. These guys…well, not so much.

      Yeah, I really dig Vonleh, but he’s not in the realm of those guys and you could argue that if the return is just a shitty second rounder, then it might be better to keep Vonleh anyways so that they could still get his Early Bird rights by signing him to a 1+1 room exception contract (he would opt out of the deal after the first season and then they could re-sign him at the MLE).

      Mudiay, though, just sucks and he’s injured, so no way was he netting anything.

    177. Hubert

      I mean dude, all of those guys are waaaaaaaay better than any of our garage sale guys.

      You’re telling me one of these guys is worth four second round picks and the other isn’t worth one? I don’t believe you.

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1_select=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1=vonleno01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Mirotic&player_id2_select=Nikola+Mirotic&y2=2019&player_id2=mirotni01&idx=players

    178. Bruno Almeida

      So Kanter and Wes are gone, now to try to find some talent in the G-League. It’s sad that they apparently had not much value in trades but it was to be expected, everyone knew the Knicks didn’t want those guys, so why would anyone give us anything for them.

    179. Grocer

      I’d bet anything that Vonleh would net a 2nd rounder.

      Why? I like him but he’s been uneven this year and there’s several years evidence of him not being worth very much. Why would a contender take a chance on a rental like Vonleh when there are consistently average players available? We’re overrating our own players, as per normal.

    180. Brian Cronin

      So Kanter and Wes are gone, now to try to find some talent in the G-League. It’s sad that they apparently had not much value in trades but it was to be expected, everyone knew the Knicks didn’t want those guys, so why would anyone give us anything for them.

      Anthony Bennett! Come on!

    181. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Yeah that’s what you say when you’re tanking

      Dude, just the other day Fizdale was almost apologetic about how bad the team is. They knew they were bad, but they didn’t bring in Mudiay, Hezonja, Burke, and Vonleh to lose more games. They didn’t draft Knox to get worse. They brought them in because they thought they were better players than Hernangomez, O’Quinn, McDermott, Mikal Bridges, and any other players they could have taken a look at. They were trying to get both younger and better knowing full well they were getting a lottery pick, but they SUCK at the getting better part.

    182. thenoblefacehumper

      You’re telling me one of these guys is worth four second round picks and the other isn’t worth one? I don’t believe you.

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1_select=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1=vonleno01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Mirotic&player_id2_select=Nikola+Mirotic&y2=2019&player_id2=mirotni01&idx=players

      This comparison is extremely favorable to Mirotic, especially when you take into account the specific type of production teams are looking for (volume 3PT shooting).

      Dude, just the other day Fizdale was almost apologetic about how bad the team is. They knew they were bad, but they didn’t bring in Mudiay, Hezonja, Burke, and Vonleh to lose more games. They didn’t draft Knox to get worse. They brought them in because they thought they were better players than Hernangomez, O’Quinn, McDermott, Mikal Bridges, and any other players they could have taken a look at. They were trying to get both younger and better knowing full well they were getting a lottery pick, but they SUCK at the getting better part

      Would you have signed Doug McDerm–ah fuck it we know how this goes

    183. thenoblefacehumper

      Vonleh has no value to the Knicks. If you can trade him for a 2025 second round pick you do it

      He has very, very little value to us but I would take the EB rights possibility over a 2025 2RP.

    184. Brian Cronin

      He has very, very little value to us but I would take the EB rights possibility over a 2025 2RP.

      Yeah, it’s extremely little value either way (a 2025 second rounder or the ability to give him EB rights if he takes the room for a year), but I like the latter better, too.

    185. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      You’re telling me one of these guys is worth four second round picks and the other isn’t worth one? I don’t believe you.

      It’s hard to compare these guys on boxscore stats.

      One is a defender than can switch everything, rebound, pass and you are hoping he gives you just enough on offense to not be liability on that side.

      The other is a scorer and floor spacer that you hope doesn’t get targeted and killed on defense.

    186. nicos

      Mike Conley is still owed 66m after this season- how on earth did Memphis not move him when they had the opportunity to do so? Per Woj they wanted to keep him as a mentor for JJJ- 66m for a mentor?? I guess DJ will know what to ask the Knicks for in the off-season.

    187. Hubert

      This comparison is extremely favorable to Mirotic, especially when you take into account the specific type of production teams are looking for (volume 3PT shooting).

      It’s not 4 times more favorable. Teams like defense and rebounding, too. Bagley reported that Denver and a host of other teams expressed interest. I don’t believe none of them offered something.

    188. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Would you have signed Doug McDerm–ah fuck it we know how this goes

      I say this with affection. Wake up from your slumber.

      It doesn’t matter. They got McDermott in a trade. He has a useful skill or two. If you are going to move on from McDermott because he doesn’t fit or you think the price is too high, he should be replaced by someone that is better or that fits better. If you go backwards, you F’d up. Every move they’ve made has been a backwards move. Notice how every move Jerry West makes either makes the team better or dramatically improves it’s position. That’s the goal. GETTING BETTER! West will screw one or two up eventually as the resident geniuses in Houston and Miami have. But they are trying to get BETTER. Tanking is a one year event.

    189. Grocer

      Vonleh has no value to the Knicks. If you can trade him for a 2025 second round pick you do it

      I’m ambivalent about a single late second vs resigning him. I’d lean towards resigning for cheap but fair enough. I just don’t see anybody offering anything more and even that’s iffy.

    190. iserp

      It’s not 4 times more favorable. Teams like defense and rebounding, too. Bagley reported that Denver and a host of other teams expressed interest. I don’t believe none of them offered something.

      Vonleh only has half a season of good play. I think it is for real, but I understand why teams would go for the known commodity, which is also a better fit.

    191. Hubert

      Just to be clear: a basketball forum that is dedicated to statistics just saw a F with a BPM of 0.0 and a VORP of 0.5 this season get traded for four second round picks, but thinks the reason a F with a BPM of 0.8 and a VORP of 1.0 is still on the Knicks is because he’s not good at basketball and no one valued him.

      I don’t buy it. I’d be stunned if we couldn’t get one pick for Vonleh, like Washington’s 2nd round pick this year from Denver (who was reportedly interested, per Begley).

    192. Z-man

      It is possible that Vonleh is one clause in the “Strike Out on FAs This Summer” insurance policy.

    193. iserp

      Just to be clear: a basketball forum that is dedicated to statistics just saw a F with a BPM of 0.0 and a VORP of 0.5 this season get traded for four second round picks, but thinks the reason a F with a BPM of 0.8 and a VORP of 1.0 is still on the Knicks is because he’s not good at basketball and no one valued him.

      I don’t buy it.

      Vonleh has -2.8 BPM for his career, while Mirotic has 0.8 (positive) in his career. It is fair to assume sample sizes are at play here. Vonleh is young, and I believe the improvement is for real, but the Bucks (and other teams that were buyers at the deadline) were more about filling their holes with consistent players than swinging for the fences.

    194. thenoblefacehumper

      I say this with affection. Wake up from your slumber.

      It doesn’t matter. They got McDermott in a trade. He has a useful skill or two. If you are going to move on from McDermott because he doesn’t fit or you think the price is too high, he should be replaced by someone that is better or that fits better. If you go backwards, you F’d up. Every move they’ve made has been a backwards move. Notice how every move Jerry West makes either makes the team better or dramatically improves it’s position. That’s the goal. GETTING BETTER! West will screw one or two up eventually as the resident geniuses in Houston and Miami have. But they are trying to get BETTER. Tanking is a one year event.

      Do you know what the win curve is?

    195. iserp

      For example, Trey Burke had a 1.0 BPM last year and is -2.3 for his career, and this year… well, he is sucking again.

    196. ClashFan

      I’m actually kind of happy that there were no more trades. All joking aside, the guys being bought out just weren’t going to bring anything.

      I wonder, if they hang on to Mudiay, what do they to with him when he comes back? Surely they are moving Frank to wing for the rest of the year, but DSJ vs. Mudiay could become a mini-drama, depending upon who Fiz starts and who gets the most minutes…

    197. Ntilakilla

      One thing that’s consistent with our front offices is that you absolutely cannot trust the process.

      The Process should be that there is no fixed process. It’s all very Zen and explains Phil’s MO perfectly.

    198. geo

      it’s funny – you read through 200 plus comments, and, one will just stick out…

      Being shitty isn’t the same as rebuilding.

      in this case – the truth and pain are just tied together too tightly…

    199. Z-man

      While dawn was breaking on Deadline Day, I wrote:

      “Hoping for a quiet day today. Please, oh please don’t gut the team for AD and his creaky body….All I want to have happen today is for one of the three big expirings to net a 2nd round pick from someone. But the lovely sound of crickets would be fine.”

      There is a God.

    200. abk

      Could someone explain to me the offers on KB seeming like massive overpays for Anthony Davis? I would expect Knicks fans to under project what they have to actually trade, but the reverse seems to be the case. Some of the offers from this thread:

      If they take Mitch, Knox, another youngster and the 1st they’ll have all those players under control for at least three more years.

      I’d probably trade Mitch and 14% chance at Zion plus the mavs picks fir ad right now.

      Cost for the trade would probably be Mitchell Robinson, 2-3 1st rounders, DSJr., plus whatever young flotsam interests the Pels.

      I think we’d have to do Mitch, Zion, and 2 or 3 1RPs to beat that. Maybe Mitch/Morant and 4 1RPs? But maybe that’s not best idea for such a raw team.

      I get that some of these were not meant as offers the posters would actually accept, but if I were our GM I’d laugh at NO requesting any of these deals. It’s far too much. My reasoning:

      1. AD is effectively a one-year rental. Then he could bolt. Even if you get him to re-sign he’s making $40M – 45M, and it’s hard to build a team around him with these offers draining our assets.
      2. Since AD’s almost done with his contract, why pull a Melo-type trade instead of waiting for free agency? There are also several max-caliber players in this coming free agent class. If you strike out on everything, that open cap space is probably worth at least 2 more first round picks by taking on bad contracts. So our consolation prize could be 9 first round picks in the next five years? I’m okay with that.
      3. Stating the value of our 2019 pick as “a 14% chance at Zion” as part of trade offers is grossly undervaluing the asset. While it’s true that we have a 14% chance of getting Zion, the selection doesn’t disappear if it becomes the #2-6 pick. People have been saying “this draft is weak”, but there’s a lot of uncertainty with…

    201. Hubert

      Vonleh has -2.8 BPM for his career, while Mirotic has 0.8 (positive) in his career. It is fair to assume sample sizes are at play here.

      Career numbers didn’t seem to stop Jerry West from getting a haul for Tobias Harris that would make a superstar blush.

      Look, it was a seller’s market. If you sold, you did well. We had something to sell, we didn’t.

      I do not believe for a second that no one would have bought Vonleh when the alternative explanation is “the Knicks fucked it up and think this is going to help them re-sign him”.

    202. abk

      projections. While there’s no Durant or Wade level prospect after #1, there are plenty of promising guys. See here: http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm…… The expected value of those selections is an all-star caliber player. So the real value of the 2019 pick is a 14% chance at Zion and an 86% chance at another super highly regarded prospect.
      4. If we were to win the lottery I wouldn’t trade Zion for AD, straight up. AD is obviously more certain, but it’s just a bad bet. Zion will play for peanuts for four years relative to NBA salaries, and then get a 4-5 year extension that also severely underpays him if he’s a star, as we all expect. Those nine years are much more value to me than immediately paying AD $40M.
      5. Mitch is also being undervalued in these deals. He’s a lock top 5 pick if he were to be re-entered into this 2019 draft. People are practically treating him as a throw in, when he could be a future star. I wouldn’t trade both Mitch and the 2019 pick together for AD. I hope he really kills it for the rest of the season, because the fact that Lonzo and Tatum’s perceived value is so much higher than his solely seems to relate to their original draft position. If we’re going to deal him we really need his trade value to approximate his true value.
      6. Look at any of these deals compared to other recent star trades (Harden, PG, Boogie, Kevin Love, KG). None of them have remotely given up two promising young players (Knox/DSJ, Mitch), a top 5 pick (2019), plus two more firsts.

    203. Z-man

      I think that the vast majority here at KB were not hankering for an AD trade. The conversation was more about what we could live with giving up. He is a true max player in terms of production and might have lured others to join him. But the love affair for Mitch and the excitement about albeit a 14% chance for Zion are very real and knowing that hitting the lottery would fast-track us to better possibilities this summer is a risk most of us are willing to take.

      But since we don’t control anything, most of the talk was “well, if we give up this much, we could still…” knowing full well that the Pels would never go for a anything less than the mother lode.

      Unlike Melo, AD is very truly a great player. But if we shot our wad on AD in a Melo-like trade, and then he blows out his knee, achilles, or back, it’s curtains on this franchise for another 5 years. So yeah, I’m glad that we didn’t offer the kitchen sink for him, like previous regimes almost certainly would have.

    204. DRed

      There’s no benefit to the Knicks for keeping Vonleh. We shouldn’t want to resign him, which we can just do next year anyhow if we traded him. If you can get something for nothing you should do it, because it’s better than nothing.

    205. geo

      @ #6

      howdy weird john…just using this terminology: advanced stats (BPM, ISO etc) puts you light years ahead of me…it took me almost a year here to digest what the hell a TS% was…

      seems the plus/minus stuff is all the rage this year though…who knows what it will be next year…

      for myself though – i find the cap and salary stuff to be a little more interesting:
      https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/
      although, as some have mentioned – their data in regards to future cap situations is not always accurate or complete…

      the hoopshype site is also good for quick referencing;
      https://hoopshype.com/team/new-york-knicks/

      almost everyday now i check in on:
      https://bleacherreport.com/new-york-knicks

      they seem to have the best compilation of knicks related articles and include a bunch of stuff from:
      https://knicksfilmschool.com/ – usually really primo stuff
      and: sports net new york (having trouble though loading the site today)…

      at this point i pretty much leave ‘posting and toasting’ and all the different new york rags alone…i do though like to check in on espn…they’ll have some interesting articles every once in a while…

      as far as evaluating upcoming drafts – i don’t really have a good reference for that…

      i think stats are great, but, the reality is – i’m not so great with numbers…thankfully long ago mike was wise/kind enough to include: Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

      you know – i’m not so sure on my own i could research and analyze my way to understanding just how poorly frank has played since joining the knicks – over the years i’ve come to recognize that those skills i lack, some posters have in excess…when the conversation here does devolve :) into pure statistics i just try to look at what’s being presented and compare what different people are stating…

    206. Bruno Almeida

      I am a fan of the advanced stats myself, but you’re missing the picture if you’re using them to gauge trade value alone.

      I would take a wild guess that most front offices either don’t know about it couldn’t care less about VORP, BPM and etc, and that player reputation is a lot more important to their decision making than those are.

      Mirotic had scored a lot of points, he’s been talked as a good player for a while, he’s seen as someone valuable who was a strong contributor to the Pelicans in the playoffs. Vonleh is a reclamation project that people still see as a failure, playing well on a garbage 10 win team that nobody watches. It makes a lot of difference.

      As much as I think advanced stats are better than reputation based claims to evaluate players, it is not the way front offices work at all, even the smartest of them.

    207. heavencent35

      So we cant even trade our guys for picks. is jordan matthews kanter and all other knikcs are bad enough? It pains me to buy out people. Its like under utilizing our finances and people.

    208. Ntilakilla

      I think the Mirotic trade was about a certain player filling a particular niche at the right time for a serious contender. It’s hard to quantify an abstract value for those situations that can be applied across the board for Player X that scenario vs. Player Y in another scenario. You certainly shouldn’t be expecting to apply a general metric as a means of relating it to what someone like Vonleh would fetch out there. Look at KP. You think the Mavericks gave a shit about his VORP, WS/48, BMP, etc. when they trade to get him from us? I don’t. I genuinely believe that trade came down to Cuban’s fetish for a Dirk 2.0 and Carlisle’s wet dreams for a Luka-Unicorn pick n pop.

    209. geo

      WeirdJohn
      February 7, 2019 at 8:49 am
      Just a quick shout-out to THCJ
      For someone who is not knowledgeable about some of the advanced stats (BPM, ISO etc) is there a good resource out there to learn more about what they mean and how they are calculated?

      The Honorable Cock Jowles
      February 7, 2019 at 9:40 am
      This should be good enough for KB purposes:

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

      The KnickerBlogger’s Apprentice
      February 7, 2019 at 10:53 am
      Thanks much for this. I had never clicked through to the “About BPM” link.

      another grateful lurker.

      time for a shout out to jowles also…that’s pretty cool – despite being one of our most “unique” personalities (an absolute maestro when it comes to poking on folks) – jowles was also the first person here on the site to take time to try and steer me more towards an analytical approach to my simplistic fandom…

      although we all do this for joy – you never know whom you might influence by taking the time to respond and jot down a few thoughts…well done sir…

    210. heavencent35

      ALSO, are we in favor of-
      unprotected pick to AD
      Zion to AD?

      I dont know but for me id rather keep the pick for whoever it is and for the first time since Ewing, try to build it right.

      I know AD is still young but who knows he can be Penny, Grant Hill or Amare or a Mcdyess.
      Maybe i will only do that if it is KD and AD guaranteed or Kawhi plus KD or AD.
      Not sure though. If Orlando can get a tmac and hill. I hope we can get KD plus one. Or Kawhi plus one. Not high on Kyrie and cousins and walker.

    211. alsep73

      Begley:

      Orlando expressed interest in Frank Ntilikina prior to the trade deadline but was told that New York was not trading the second-year guard, per league sources.

      They could still trade him in the off-season, if they need a little extra Space or for other things, but glad to see they didn’t just give him away at the lowest possible ebb of his value.

    212. Brian Cronin

      There’s no benefit to the Knicks for keeping Vonleh. We shouldn’t want to resign him, which we can just do next year anyhow if we traded him. If you can get something for nothing you should do it, because it’s better than nothing.

      If they re-sign him to the room, they can get his Early Bird rights the following year. They would lose that option if they traded him. It’s a minor benefit, but so is a distant second round pick from a good team.

    213. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      I wouldn’t trade both Mitch and the 2019 pick together for AD.

      Nor would I. And I think AD is a top 5 player, with (if he can shake the injury bug) the possibility of being top 50 all-time. But trading both Mitch and the pick would leave us with nothing.

      I would have traded the pick today, without Mitch, if only because it’s a 14% chance at a franchise savior. Yes, some other top players could be good, but only Zion really screams Franchise. Since we didn’t trade it, now I would keep it if it was definitely #1, because Zion + Mitch = huge opportunity to build a dynasty.

      If it isn’t #1, I’d put it back on the market, again without Mitch, in the summer. NO won’t want to make any deal with LA, so it would be our pick + DSjr + whatever other than Mitch against Tatum and the Boston picks. With AD not certain to resign with Boston, that might get it done.

      I am not sure people understand how valuable Mitch is. I mean, many here do, but he is a far better asset than KP, not because he’s necessarily going to be better (though it’s possible), but because he’s already good, and cost-controlled for 3 MORE YEARS. That’s how you can build greatness – with those kinds of deals. We can’t trade him, even for AD…unless we get Zion, and trade Mitch and NOT Zion for AD. But Mitch is a second-round pick, and won’t be valued appropriately, so that would never happen.

    214. Grocer

      If you sold, you did well. We had something to sell, we didn’t.

      I thought the rumor was that Vonleh was available, but maybe I’m wrong.

      Not surprised nobody bit on Matthews/Jordan/Kanter. That’s a lot of salary to shift to make a trade work, might as well wait till the likely waiving.

    215. thenoblefacehumper

      The way a player derives his BPM/WS48 etc. obviously matters a lot.

      Vonleh derives his almost entirely through rebounding, which teams are largely punting on these days. We’ve talked about how there might even be a market inefficiency for guys like KOQ/Ed Davis/Vonleh for this reason. In this case we were the victims of that inefficiency.

      Mirotic derives his almost entirely through high volume, high efficiency scoring with an emphasis on 3PT shooting. That’s all the rage these days. That’s why he’s worth so much more despite having similar box score aggregators to Vonleh.

    216. kevin5318

      It is truly a miracle that Frank is still on the team. Hopefully he shows some progress in the second half in the season.

    217. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      And I think AD is a top 5 player

      I should clarify that I mean over the next 3 years, when LeBron is old and as Durant begins to fade. I’d rate Steph, Giannis, and Kawhi ahead of him. Maybe Harden.

      Jokic, George, and Embiid deserve notice, especially Jokic and Embiid, who should continue to grow and improve over the next few years. But I’d take AD over all of them.

    218. thenoblefacehumper

      Having found myself in the odd position of defending the Knicks’ front office a lot in the last week or so, I should mention how ridiculous it is that just-waived Enes Kanter was a major factor in the decision to trade Willy Hernangomez. That is some really dumb shit right there

    219. d-mar

      The lack of interest in Vonleh makes me question the whole “reclamation project” strategy (also include Mudiay and Hezonga) We’ve always said on this site that best case for these guys is that they show improvement and we can trade them for maybe a few 2nd rounders. But obviously no one in the league sees any value in these guys.

      So what exactly is the point again of signing draft busts?

    220. Z-man

      It is truly a miracle that Frank is still on the team. Hopefully he shows some progress in the second half in the season.

      There’s nowhere to go but up.

      As to “miracle,” I think it’s more of a “non-event.” Frank would be a good second round pick, and that’s probably all we could have gotten for him. Better to keep him build up his value to “NBA scrub” and dangle him later.

      Now if he improves significantly, THAT would be a miracle!

    221. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      a F with a BPM of 0.8 and a VORP of 1.0 is still on the Knicks is because he’s not good at basketball and no one valued him.

      That’s not why. I don’t think Perry wants to trade him. He thinks of Vonleh as one of the young guys they are using this season to evaluate. It’s true that Vonleh is a free agent and we won’t have control of him, but I dont think that makes Perry conclude it is not worth keeping him. He is probably confident he can get a reasonable deal with Vonleh if the money isnt spent on big name free agents. And since he can always just ask Vonleh whether he wants to be here long term and probably has done so already, he is probably right in his thinking.

    222. Hubert

      I’m not trying to say vonleh should have netted what mirotic did. I’m just saying every asset that was sold this week got a return that was much higher than expected. It was a seller’s market. It’s disingenuous to act like a distant 2nd round pick return was the likely return. He probably would have fetched at least a 2nd round pick this year. I don’t believe there was no interest in him, he could help a lot of teams. It’s much more likely this is exhibit Z in the Knicks failing to execute basic asset mgmt skills.

    223. Hubert

      That’s not why. I don’t think Perry wants to trade him. He thinks of Vonleh as one of the young guys they are using this season to evaluate. It’s true that Vonleh is a free agent and we won’t have control of him, but I dont think that makes Perry conclude it is not worth keeping him. He is probably confident he can get a reasonable deal with Vonleh if the money isnt spent on big name free agents. And since he can always just ask Vonleh whether he wants to be here long term and probably has done so already, he is probably right in his thinking.

      He can do all that if he netted a 2nd round pick for him, too.

    224. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      Having found myself in the odd position of defending the Knicks’ front office a lot in the last week or so, I should mention how ridiculous it is that just-waived Enes Kanter was a major factor in the decision to trade Willy Hernangomez. That is some really dumb shit right there

      That’s a little unfair. It’s true it would have been cheaper to have Hernangomez and his lousy defense than to have Kanter and his lousy defense, but Kanter’s salary probably made him untradeable. He was also an expiring in a tanking year, which was a good thing, not a bad thing.

      The end result is that we have Kornet, who is better than Willy, and Mitch, who is much better than Kanter, Kornet or Willy, at center. And we will have the cap space from Kanter’s expiring contract. I agree with Strat in not trusting Knick’s management’s trust in players, but as far as the center position goes, they are doing fine.

    225. d-mar

      Dude, it’s been less than a season.

      Well, the trade deadline just came and went, so it’s basically the whole season.

    226. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      He can do all that if he netted a 2nd round pick for him, too.

      That is theoretically possible, but in human terms, you really think that if some other team wanted a player enough to trade for him and the Knicks got rid of him, that it would be easy to just re-sign him? I know I wouldn’t want to move twice in the space of three months or so.

    227. DRed

      Vonleh is an averagish young player with some upside still left, but we’re on pace to win like 16 or 17 games. Why are we keeping him around to spend money on him next season?

    228. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      time for a shout out to jowles also…that’s pretty cool – despite being one of our most “unique” personalities (an absolute maestro when it comes to poking on folks) – jowles was also the first person here on the site to take time to try and steer me more towards an analytical approach to my simplistic fandom…

      although we all do this for joy – you never know whom you might influence by taking the time to respond and jot down a few thoughts…well done sir…

      It’s merely 4:30 PM on the west coast and I just microdosed on indica tincture in your honor. You’re welcome, and thanks, geo.

    229. thenoblefacehumper

      Vonleh is an averagish young player with some upside still left, but we’re on pace to win like 16 or 17 games. Why are we keeping him around to spend money on him next season?

      I mentioned this the other day; if we we’re successful in signing two worthy max players, we’re going to be desperate for production from, well, all of the other players. The market inefficiency for players like Vonleh would theoretically make him a good fit for such a team. Obviously a lot of somewhat unlikely things have to happen for this to be relevant, but the chance might be worth passing on a 2025 2RP.

    230. swiftandabundant

      You ever break up with a girl who’s a 7 because you think there’s this 9 out that might be interested in you? Then you go after the 9, she turns you down, and you go slinking back to the 7. Did she take you back?

      I didn’t think so.

    231. dtrickey

      Interesting post deadline to see what we do with the roster spots. I might be biased, but Brooklyn just released Mitch Creek from his 10 day contract. Has been putting up really good numbers for Long Island in the G-League. Good passer for the F position and a hand re-bounder. Again I could be biased because he is an Aussie, but his G-Legaue.

      https://stats.gleague.nba.com/player/1628249/career/

      Only downside is he is 26, so doesn’t necessary fit the mode of a “prospect” per say.

    232. Jack Bauer

      “So what exactly is the point again of signing draft busts?”
      To expedite the tank of course!

    233. swiftandabundant

      Don Nelson – the idea that we can trade Vonleh to another team and then resign him this summer. I think once you trade a player the odds of you resigning them that summer are extremely slim. In my scenario, the girl you dump immediately gets a new boyfriend.

      You trade him to another team most likely a team that is trying to make the playoffs…why would he come back? You made him move. You got rid of him. Now he’s going to come back.

    234. DRed

      why would he come back?

      Because you’re going to pay him money. He’s not going to play for the Knicks because he wants to win.

    235. GoNyGoNyGo

      One interesting take is that the Knicks intend to resign DeAndre Jordan. Granted, he’s not top-10 overall, but he is tied for 22nd in win shares (tied with Griffen and #Bledsoe. He’s #9 in DWS). Granted, he is 30, but frankly, I think his next 5 years will be better than KP’s.

      Do we get any special rights, like Bird rights for him that let us somehow exceed the cap?

    236. Bruno Almeida

      Well, the idea of getting draft busts is to have one of them at least become a really good player that you want to re-sign. While Vonleh is surely a decent player who’s having a good season, it’s not like he’s a sure thing that we definitely should re-sign. If you can get assets for those guys it’s obviously a good thing, but it’s not like giving Vonleh a chance has taken minutes from anyone else important or anything.

      I don’t trust our front office and I do think a better one would have been able to find some deals at least, but it’s not like our players had any tangible value out there and they wasted it completely, it would have been mostly marginal 2nd rounders that you very often can just buy on draft day if you wish.

    237. Bruno Almeida

      @280

      Jordan should have no bird rights attached to him at all, he went to Dallas as a free agent and then came to the Knicks. Early bird rights only kick in after two years, so he’s not eligible. Bird rights reset fully after a player moves teams as a free agent.

    238. DRed

      Trae Young is looking pretty decent these days. If you throw out the month (I know, I know) he shot under 30% from 3 he’s been good for a rookie PG on offense.

    239. Brian Cronin

      Don Nelson – the idea that we can trade Vonleh to another team and then resign him this summer. I think once you trade a player the odds of you resigning them that summer are extremely slim. In my scenario, the girl you dump immediately gets a new boyfriend.

      You trade him to another team most likely a team that is trying to make the playoffs…why would he come back? You made him move. You got rid of him. Now he’s going to come back.

      When you last brought up this point, we pointed out two times that teams traded a player and then re-signed him in the offseason in just the last three seasons (Devin Harris last year and one of the guys that the Hornets traded for Courtney Lee three years ago).

    240. Brian Cronin

      Jordan should have no bird rights attached to him at all, he went to Dallas as a free agent and then came to the Knicks. Early bird rights only kick in after two years, so he’s not eligible. Bird rights reset fully after a player moves teams as a free agent.

      Not only do they have no rights with him, even if they did, they’d have to first factor in his $21 million cap hold before signing any other players in order to then use his bird rights. There’s no scenario where bringing Jordan back makes any sense, which is why it is scary that it sounds like they are going to try to bring Jordan back.

    241. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, I fully believe the FO’s intentions is simply to keep Jordan in the team to mentor Robinson, while soaking up the minutes that would have been available anyway with Kanter out of the picture, then maybe waive him at the last moment to allow him to go to a contender or something as a favor to him. Anyway he really shouldn’t be back if they’re serious about free agency.

    242. thenoblefacehumper

      There’s no scenario where bringing Jordan back makes any sense, which is why it is scary that it sounds like they are going to try to bring Jordan back.

      The only thing I could think of is if he’s down to take the room exception after we’re done with the real space. Needless to say, seems unlikely.

      Re: Vonleh, to be clear I would’ve had no issue with trading him for a 2nd. I just think it’s pretty different from the KOQ situation. By the deadline last year, KOQ had accumulated a ~3.5 career BPM with the Knicks over a sample size that spanned more than an entire season (3000+ MP). The dude was a complete beast to the point where it’s impossible to believe nothing of note was available.

      Vonleh is pretty average at a position/role that isn’t highly valued. It isn’t difficult for me to believe the only offers really were in the vein of a 2025 2RP. The possibility of him taking the room next year and then signing on long-term with EB rights the year after really might be more valuable than what was available.

    243. ess-dog

      Wow Ingram just shat the bed hard in the final 2 minutes : missed ft, missed 3-ball, fouled Kyrie, all in a row.

    244. Owen

      Pretty entertaining Lakers-Celts game. You can’t argue with Kyrie’s ability to handle the basketball. He’s so hypnotic they actually let him take a couple extra steps some time just for the heck of it.

      I kid, he really is good. But Daniel Theis carried the Celts to victory tonight. Daniel Theis!

      It’s going to be a really fun EC playoffs. Lot to look forward to.

      Edit: I may have spoken too soon. Kyle Kuzma just put the Lakers back on top. Take that “Lebron shouldn’t gm” narrative!

    245. Bruno Almeida

      I had immediate Tyson flashbacks, that was fun. The guy is out there contributing when he should be all but completely done.

    246. Z-man

      Loved watching the Lakers (yuk!) rip the heart out of the Celts (barf!) and their fans (suck it, mfers!) at the TD Garden. Especially on a lucky tip-out to a Rondo jumper, nothing but net at the buzzer.

      The Massholes and their playoff aspirations had to take a hit this week. FO Jilted by AD, players deflated by that under the table proposed deal for AD, and left in the dust by deadline deals of Milwaukee, Philly, and Toronto. Ainge must be getting a bit nervous.

    247. geo

      cherry on top for the evening – boston drops to 4th…lots of games left, but, a 1st round matchup with boston losing (philly currently 5th) would be outstanding…

    248. Hubert

      Interesting write up from Zach Lowe on our guys:

      New York’s kiddos

      The Pelicans will be watching Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, and Dennis Smith Jr. Knox looks the part. He’s shooting a hair below league average from deep, but on a diet of attempts — curling off screens, semi-contested — that suggests a good shooter who can survive in highly competitive contexts. He can attack a bit off the bounce, and has a nice floater. Knox has a long way to go defensively, but that was expected.

      Smith has passed Ntilikina as a prospect. The league got too far down on Smith too fast. He has issues — dancing with the ball, so-so decision-making, lax defense — but those are typical of young point guards. Smith is a legit athlete who can do some rare things.

      Ntilkina’s defense, solid across multiple positions, will get him only so far if he remains one of the worst offensive players in the league.

      If the Knicks don’t get the No. 1 pick and have dreams of Davis, they need the Pelicans to love one of these guys.

      Funny there’s no mention of Mitch. Even funnier is that he likes Knox’ floater.

    249. Brian Cronin

      The Massholes and their playoff aspirations had to take a hit this week. FO Jilted by AD, players deflated by that under the table proposed deal for AD, and left in the dust by deadline deals of Milwaukee, Philly, and Toronto. Ainge must be getting a bit nervous.

      Watching the game, Chris Webber liked that they made no moves, because it shows that they have faith in their team against those other three teams.

      Mmmmmmmmmm….k.

    250. Donnie Walsh

      A lot of unexciting guys playing musical chairs over the past few days.

      I like Gasol on the Raptors, though.

      EC has gotten interesting (finally). It’s been too long to remember since the east had a fun and competitive playoffs. Toronto, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia are all well positioned to lose to the Warriors. Will be fun to watch. (I think Raptors Bucks could be a classic ECF).

    251. Frank

      Yeah, I fully believe the FO’s intentions is simply to keep Jordan in the team to mentor Robinson, while soaking up the minutes that would have been available anyway with Kanter out of the picture, then maybe waive him at the last moment to allow him to go to a contender or something as a favor to him. Anyway he really shouldn’t be back if they’re serious about free agency.

      Ideally they just let Jordan do whatever he wants– if he wants to hang out and mentor Robinson and Kornet, great. If he wants to play for a contender, then they can waive him at the last minute before he becomes ineligible to play in the playoffs. Actually ideally he’d go to Philly, or to whatever team Boston is likely to play in the first round.

    252. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      we pointed out two times that teams traded a player and then re-signed him in the offseason in just the last three seasons (Devin Harris last year and one of the guys that the Hornets traded for Courtney Lee three years ago)

      That could be but I would guess that the re-signed players were part of a bigger trade where they were included for salary matching purposes, and the receiving team wasn’t really interested in keeping them. That’s very different from trading Vonleh to a team that wants him and he is the only component of the trade.

    253. Brian Cronin

      That only affects whether the team that traded for him would want to keep him.The specific point being refuted was that a player would not want to return to a team that traded him (” You made him move. You got rid of him.”) and it seems clear that players generally don’t actually care about that (I’m sure that there are exceptions, of course).

    254. bobneptune

      I realize this is Berman, but can KP be this effin stupid?

      Kanter became the fourth-string center after the Porzingis trade brought in DeAndre Jordan. But Fizdale had toyed with his role from the beginning of the season. After five games, Fizdale promoted rookie project Robinson to starting center — a slap in the veteran’s face. Kanter claimed Porzingis was irritated by Fizdale’s treatment of his fellow European.

    255. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Funny there’s no mention of Mitch. Even funnier is that he likes Knox’ floater.

      Knox, DSJ, and Frank are not getting a trade done.

      one of them is legitimately bad on both sides of the ball right now.
      one of them is a negative on both side of the ball right now
      one of them seems to have a top as a 3&D+playmaker if he ever learns to shoot.

      If Robinson looks great going forward, with his contract, if you also throw him in and the 1st rounder that might get it done. But I’m wondering if Durant + Davis + a totally gutted team is a good formula when Durant will be 31 at the start of the next season.

    256. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      You ever break up with a girl who’s a 7 because you think there’s this 9 out that might be interested in you? Then you go after the 9, she turns you down, and you go slinking back to the 7. Did she take you back?

      Bad management. You have to have that 9 locked down through back channels before you blow it all up and go for cap space.

    257. Brian Cronin

      I realize this is Berman, but can KP be this effin stupid?

      I sincerely doubt it. Would you seriously trust Kanter’s secondhand take on what someone else did?

    258. Hubert

      can KP be this effin stupid?

      He was probably poisoned on the Fizdale relationship before it began. Fizdale famously degraded European basketball in his feud with Marc Gasol. So KP probably viewed it through a prism impacted by that.

      I think Fiz handled Kanter properly. But I can see how KP, if he was predisposed to thinking Fiz was anti-Euro, could see Fiz’ behavior as supporting his bias. Fairly or unfairly, Kanter, Hezonja, and Frank have been jerked around a lot this season while equally shitty players like Mudiay and Hardaway have had the constant, unwavering support of the coach.

    259. Brian Cronin

      Brian – Can we boot up a new thread? This one is getting looooong…….

      I started a new thread!

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