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Thursday, May 23, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2018.10.31)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks assistant could be key to landing Kevin Durant
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 9:47:14 PM)

    Knicks assistant Royal Ivey and Kevin Durant have a close relationship that extends back to Durant’s college days.

  • [SNY Knicks] David Fizdale staying patient with Knicks’ new starting five
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:19:19 PM)

    Knicks head coach David Fizdale deployed his experimental starting five full of youth for the second straight game on Sunday. And he defended exactly why is doing it, saying he isn’t “hunting for wins.”

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks rookie Kevin Knox nearing a return
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:09:04 PM)

  • [NYPost] Kevin Knox knows he’s close, but he isn’t rushing it
    (Wednesday, October 31, 2018 12:26:57 AM)

    Kevin Knox looked like he could have been warming up for his next game. One after another, the shots from deep dropped through the net. When the 6-foot-9 forward moved, he showed almost no hint of the ankle injury that has kept him sidelined for more than half of the first seven games of his…

  • [NYPost] Knicks get a visit from legend Bill Bradley
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 11:37:59 PM)

    David Fizdale acknowledges the Knicks should hear perspectives besides his, and has already brought in Walt Frazier, Patrick Ewing, Chris Bosh and Rasheed Wallace to speak with the team. On Tuesday, the legends tour received arguably its most impressive guest yet, with former U.S. senator and Knicks All-Star Bill Bradley speaking to the team for…

  • [NYPost] There is a pattern to the Knicks’ Over/Unders so far
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 6:46:27 PM)

    With the Pacers in town to face the Knicks on Wednesday night, it’s a fitting time to talk about “pace.” Too many casual bettors struggle to make successful Over/Under calls because they don’t give proper respect to pace. In analytics terms, that’s the estimated number of possessions per team in any given game. Fast-paced track…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ link to Kevin Durant’s past could be key to free agency
    (Tuesday, October 30, 2018 12:17:57 PM)

    When the final buzzer sounded on Friday’s Warriors victory at the Garden, Knicks assistant coach Royal Ivey and Golden State forward Kevin Durant hugged and chatted for about 45 seconds on the court. It was no surprise to those close to Ivey. The former Cardozo High standout has been close to Durant ever since Durant attended…

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    131 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.10.31)

    1. Frank

      We are 10% of the way through the season now and starting to get to the point where the sample sizes are becoming at least semi-evaluable. Some possible trends that interest me:

      1) Vonleh as small-ball center – according to B-R, except for a little bit in his rookie year, Vonleh has played virtually every minute in his career as a PF… until this year when he’s played 60% of his minutes so far at center. in response — he has career highs in: ORB%, DRB (although he’s had DRB% in the 30 range for the most part the 3 prev seasons), BLK%, % shots taken in the restricted area, AST%, and a career low in TOV%. he’s averaging 2.1 dunks/36 which is not exactly Deandre Jordan (~2.9 dunks/36) but is basically 2x his previous high. He’s averaging 3.4 assists/36 which is pretty eye-opening. It’s all super small sample size still but it’s hard to argue with a WS/48 of 0.241 and solidly positive OBPM/DBPMs. We all lamented the loss of KOQ but Vonleh has been better than even the best version of KOQ … so far.

      2) Tim Hardaway Jr, with a career high in usage but also career high in AST% while remaining with a pretty reasonable AST/TO ratio (a little better than 2). He has an OBPM of 5.4 which is outstanding, only partially offset by a horrible DBPM of -3.4.

      3) Trey Burke, regressing hard… although it’ll progress back the other way eventually. His midrange shooting numbers are ridiculously bad right now, it’ll get better. But the idea that he is at best a quality backup PG seems like the right idea.

      4) Ntilikina – doing most things better. Shocking that he might improve now that he has actually gone through puberty.

    2. Frank

      continued…

      5) Fizdale – doing all the things we wished our previous coaches would do. Benching or at least minimizing PT for vets who are not part of the future. Running fast. Still not ideal shot charts but overall better (64% of shots from 3+rim – we have not been >60% since 2012-13).

      6) Defense — overall some interesting numbers. We are definitely trying to force more turnovers and are 8th in the league in TOV%-forced. The things that really stand out are the defense at the rim and 3’s — while congratulating ourselves taking 64% of our shots at the rim and from 3, we’ve given up a ridiculous 73.3% of our shots in those areas. The thing that is most striking in terms of DFG% is how well teams are shooting at the rim against us… with Kanter playing center most of the minutes and KP out. With Kanter playing center our DRtg is 116. With anyone but Kanter playing center it is 107.8 (60th percentile). With Vonleh playing center it is 101.2. I know Kanter is mad and wants to be an all-star or whatever but it is 100% the right move to put him on the bench.

      Hard to know whether the team scrambling to cover up for the lack of rim protection is the reason for all the 3’s given up.

    3. Frank

      other random thoughts:

      Steph Curry has a TS of 72.6 on a usage of 31.4. Is that good?

      Trae Young, after a pretty rough start, now averaging 21.9 and 7.5 per 36 with a TS that has climbed to 55.2 and an AST/TO ratio of 2.2. He’s terrible on defense but a rookie PG putting up those offensive numbers… pretty nice. He would indeed be the only rookie in NBA history under age 21 to put up 21+/7+/TS 55+ -> after having pretty much an unprecedented freshman NCAA year. The only other rookie in NBA history to meet those criteria = 22 year old Oscar Robertson.

    4. Frank

      should also note that maybe the # of 3’s given up is a little bit the product of who we’ve played… Nets shoot a ton of 3s and we’ve played them 2x already. Also GS, Atlanta, and the Bucks under Budenholzer.

    5. lavor postell

      Hard to know whether the team scrambling to cover up for the lack of rim protection is the reason for all the 3’s given up.

      Some of it is Kanter, but some of it is related to how aggressive they load up on the strong side and crash down on penetration to attempt to force turnovers. Obviously it’d be nice to improve those numbers even then, but largely, I believe, it’s the tradeoff they’re making in an attempt to force TO’s. I do wonder what the overall distribution looks like based on who is at center.

    6. Max

      RE: Trae Young
      He’s doing some good things, probably better than expected, his TS and AST/TO ratio are decent but I can’t judge counting stats right now, even PER36.
      I’m a little perplexed about the offensive spike (to make an example, today we have 16 players over 25 PPG last year there were 7) , it reminds me of the Fat Lever Era.

      :-)

      I struggle to remind a big man that refuse to protect the rim more than Kanter, sometimes he doesn’t even raise his arms.
      “Leading the second unit” is the perfect role for him, if he’s not happy about it sorry, he’s expiring in june, godspeed and good luck (I don’t know which kind of market is there for a trade).

    7. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Kanter’s comments indicate he isn’t happy, but he is being circumspect, for him, which gives me hope that he isn’t going to become a major problem. I guess we’ll see. Either way, yeah, it’s on him. It’s super obvious what he would need to do to become a starter again.

    8. alsep73

      I love Kanter as a guy, but he’s long had a blind spot about his own abilities and place in this league. (Being drafted top 3 and then getting that massive Portland offer sheet will do that.) This is a guy who keeps tweeting about wanting superstars to come here and play with him, not understanding that they can/would only come here once he’s no longer on the team. Hopefully, this doesn’t turn into Fiz V Gasol Part 2, though in this case, Fiz would be the one to survive the power struggle.

    9. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      So the first startin line up was one and four, and the current starting line is one and one in wins and losses. It’s not much data, but I think this starting line up may be better than the old one, not just one that is more defensive minded. That’s impressive given that it consists of a point guard who isn’t a point guard, a second round pick at center who hasn’t played organized ball since high school
      a year ago, a power forward that went through three teams in four years before the third team gave up on him, another second round pick, number 44 in that draft, who is now a second year player and Tim Hardaway Junior. Tim Hardaway Junior is playing well, but he can’t carry a team. Even being competitive with such a line up is an accomplishment for the front office and the coaching staff.

    10. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      I should add that I am not one of those who believes Ntilikina is definitely not a point guard. I was just referring to the fact that many people say he is completely unsuited to be a point guard.

    11. Z-man

      The current lineup seems to be clicking, Fiz should stick with it until it fizzles (npi) and then continue to tinker. If Frank falters, try Mudiay. If Mitch falters, try Knox. But if they continue to play well, keep things the same. Stuff like that.

    12. Frank

      Great quotes from Chris Iseman’s story today:

      Hardaway believes part of that stems from being the No. 1 scoring option.

      “The coaching staff has put me in position to be successful in that area of my game,” Hardaway said. “My teammates had the utmost confidence in me doing so. In order for me to do that I have to be aggressive on the offensive end so some shots may not be as pleasing but you have to take those. Try to limit those as much as possible and try to be as efficient as possible.”

      That’s also why Fizdale wants Hardaway to find the open man more often.

      “He’s not going to be perfect every game. He’s going to have games where he’s going to look back and say man I shot shots I shouldn’t have shot,” Fizdale said. “So he gets into the film, he watches it, he looks for where he could have got somebody else a look and then he tries to apply it to the next game. That’s developing.”

      Man are these guys all just saying the right stuff.

      Another good line:

      Ntilikina has attempted at least five triples in three games this season. He attempted at least five threes in three games his entire rookie year.

    13. Hubert

      Quickly on the Durant narrative:

      People here have pointed to Klay’s outburst and said “why would Durant want to leave that team?”

      Instead, they should be looking at Klay’s outburst and recognizing precisely why he’d want to leave. It’s almost always about Klay or Stef on that team. You don’t think the best scorer of a generation might want shit to be about him for once? He’s spent his whole career either on Golden State or playing with Russell Westbrook. He is the most overlooked, underappreciated great player of all time. And everyone keeps asking “why wouldn’t he sign up for more of that? He’d be crazy!”

      You guys had an entire conversation about who might win the MVP yesterday and no one mentioned the best player in the NBA. Guys like Jokic and Lillard, who are liabilities on half the court and not as good as him on the other half (Jokic’s incredible start notwithstanding), get more love than this guy for MVP. The guy has constantly been overlooked in the MVP race and in DPOY consideration.

      And yet people think he’d have to be insane to come to NY and do what every other alpha dog in NBA history has always wanted to do: be the man. You think he doesn’t know that the best year of his career, and the only year he ever got the credit he’s due, was when Westbrook was hurt and he carried a decent but not great team? If he comes here and has 2-3 more years of his career like the last few have been, he’s easily winning every single award that he’s ever been deprived of.

      But hey, maybe none of this matters to him. It’s not like he brings it up all the time and has a chip on his shoulder bigger than the Larry O’Brien trophy, which he’s about to win for the third consecutive year. Sure, he should just keep racking up those while everyone overlooks how great he is. That sounds like something every great player in the NBA would want, doesn’t it?

    14. Frank

      Yeah I think if our young guys show any kind of potential and KP comes back and looks healthy, there is a really good chance Durant is coming.

      We really just need to trade Courtney Lee.

    15. Frank

      Just to continue…

      Imagine a “small” lineup of KP, Durant, Knox, THJ, Frank.

      A conventional lineup of MitchRob, KP, Durant, THJ, Frank

      Let’s not forget we will also be adding a probably high lottery pick this year. Could be Zion, Barrett, Nasir Little, Cam Reddish.

      I think it’s altogether plausible. Someone (Zach Lowe?) mentioned that Durant looks at Lebron as a peer and could look at these GSW years as analogous to Lebron’s Miami years, after which he left to cement his legacy back at home in Cleveland. Very little would cement KD’s legacy more than bringing a championship to NY.

    16. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Imagine a “small” lineup of KP, Durant, Knox, THJ, Frank.

      That’s still a bad team. Over-the-hill Durant can carry you only so long. He’ll be 31 at the beginning of the contract, and although his peak is higher than perhaps any Knick player’s peak — ever — he’ll still be on the decline. I just don’t understand how Knox and Ntilikina can be looked upon with fervent optimism. I’m a wait-and-see kind of guy on these matters, but the fact is that Knox hasn’t yet looked like a 1st-rounder, much less a lottery pick, and Frank is still largely clueless on offense. There are 29 other teams out there developing their talent, many of whom are already more developed thank Frank as a baseline. Hardaway is fool’s gold. His sky-high BPM (2.1) is falling fast on the offensive end. And Porzingis is a huge question mark.

      I, for one, am not interested in paying 35-year-old Durant $40M. There have been maybe 10 players in league history that would have been worth 40% of the cap at age 35. Pass. Pass pass pass. There’s a good chance that pushing the chips in on this 25-win core will cap out at 40-45 wins a year for however long Porzingis is in blue and orange. The upside is all imaginary.

    17. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      It’s almost always about Klay or Stef on that team.

      Exhibit A

      Exhibit B

      This is an indefensibly homerish argument to serve the Durant-to-NY narrative. It has absolutely no basis in the world of objectivity.

    18. 2FOR18, understands math

      Trae is my guy and I’m still surprised that he’s kept his turnovers at a reasonable rate, and also that he’s handling regular starter’s minutes with no problem. One big caveat: His 2 best games have come against the no-defense Cavs.

      I wanted Mikal or SGA. Made a post about how if age is your concern, why take Knox over SGA, who can do everything better than Knox. I’m still flummoxed.

      From the last thread re: melo’s next stop: The answer is Brooklyn. They are desperate for even a minute’s worth of relevancy, and melo is delusional enough to paint it as an “I’m coming home” thing.

      Another thanks to Farfa. Thanks!

    19. danvt

      I’m a musician and I know that I’d rather play with a great group of musicians than a mediocre group. Would I join the Beatles? Oh my god, in a minute, whatever the pay…Would I join the Smithereens? They offer an excellent package of salary and benefits…um….

      The Knicks are an organization that seems to be making progress toward creating a culture and a bass line of talent that would attract an FA of KD’s stature. But they are NOT there yet. People want to play for the Yankees. They have Aaron Judge, they had Jeter, they’re always over .500, they’re always in the playoffs. The Knicks are level jumping if they think they have that kind of culture yet.

      The question will be what NYK does when KD does not come. Will they offer a max to Kemba Walker or will they develop their roster that will now include a, hopefully, rejuvenated KP and an elite rookie and make value signings to make legitimate incremental improvement?

      They could be the type of organization to lure elite FA’s in the medium term. Right now, I don’t see any reason why KD would want to leave the Beatles.

    20. Hubert

      TH Jr is a terrible fit with Durant, IMHO. Frankly, I suspect Knox would be, too. Although, in his defense, we have no idea what he is and are just (reasonably) projecting. Neither of them are efficient and both of them take a lot of shots. I would consider every shot either of them took to be a possession stolen from Durant.

      Maybe one of them can operate as a 6th man playing when Durant sits, but if Durant came here I’d rather package the two of them and bring back a ~$22mm player who would actually complement Durant. Someone like a McCollum, for instance. (Not that I’m suggesting Portland would want to make that trade.)

    21. Frank

      @THCJ — I don’t know man… I hear you on the 35 year old Durant thing, but it’s a 4 year contract at most, and it’s likely that you’ll get greater than max-level value from him in 3 out of those 4 years — and assuming (big if) KP and the rest of the young guys get better over time, he’ll have to do less on a game-to-game basis by then and save himself for the games that count. He’s also shown 2 years in a row that he doesn’t have to chase every last $$ possible, so there’s the chance that he won’t cost $40MM at age 35. (Actually assuming the cap really is set at $109MM for 2019-20 and Durant gets a 35% max with max 5%/year raises, he would get 4y/164MM with 44.2MM due to 2022-23). In addition, the cap is jumping to a projected $118MM in 2021… conservatively you’d prob guess the cap will be something like $125MM in Durant’s last year (2022-23) which is 35% of the cap, not 40%.

    22. Hubert

      Right now, I don’t see any reason why KD would want to leave the Beatles.

      But the Beatles broke up. For precisely the reasons that I’m suggesting Durant would want to leave.

      He’s not even the Paul McCartney or John Lennon. That’s Steph and Draymond. Klay is perfectly a Ringo. Durant is treated like the George Harrison of the Beatles, except really he’s David fucking Bowie.

    23. Frank O.

      1. I think Frank is a PG and we should keep him there. The advantages of a long, imposing PG are highly unusual. Yes, imposing, with that wingspan and quickness. I believe he would be able to contain most any PG in the league, save the absolute elites.
      2. Timmy has the look of his father and is a far more intelligent basketball player than people give him credit for. I think his shot is a bit too flat, and his TS and eFG are off his career right now, which is too bad since his usage is way up. I also think his D has improved (steals% up, turnovers% down compared to lifetime), the numbers I think show some of that, and his overall strength is notable. He could be a good No. 2 option on this team when KP returns, and his TS and eFG will at least improve to his career averages. But Trier is going to breath down his neck.
      3. I’m a believer in Mitchell. All in. He should be starting every day at center so he is ready when KP returns. We all like to talk about KP’s mobility at 7’3. But at 7’1, Mitch is more fluid. Clyde is right, tho, he needs to fill out. Being 225 means he will get pushed around a bit. Vonleh is a good guy to fill in at center, but I see him more in the Mason role at PF.
      4. I’m eager to see Knox get a lot of minutes. Be patient with him, and let’s hope his body holds up.
      5. Mario is a bench guy. If he’s hot, let him shoot, if he’s not have a quick hook.
      6. I love Kanter’s attitude, but I think he is a guy the Knicks can trade to a good team that needs scoring. I also like Courtney, who is a consummate pro. But he has no place on this roster.
      7. I put Burke in front of Mudiay. I don’t think Mudiay has changed since his first day in the NBA.

    24. Hubert

      Actually wait…. I did my Beatles/Warriors thing poorly. Klay is the perfect George. George was good but needed to be on a super band.

      Durant is Prince, but he’s willingly playing the role of Ringo because he really wanted to be part of a super band. How long can one reasonably expect him to want to be the drummer in a super band, though, when he’s fucking Prince? He doesn’t get to write any of his own songs, he never gets to have crazy guitar solos, and he hardly even dances on stage because the stage is too damn crowded.

    25. Hubert

      This is an indefensibly homerish argument to serve the Durant-to-NY narrative. It has absolutely no basis in the world of objectivity.

      Pull your head out of your ass for once, please.

      This is the second time in a week you posted a picture of a man smiling with trophies as evidence of something. It’s not an exhibit of anything other than a photo op.

    26. Hubert

      Here’s some evidence that backs up my “incredibly homerish argument” that the man isn’t happy with his lack of awards. For further evidence, keep your head out of your ass and just listen to him every time he speaks:

      Kevin Durant is almost certainly one of the best defensive basketball players out right now, and he’s not one to disagree. He doesn’t, however, have the utmost confidence he’ll win the NBA’s Defensive Player of the Year award, citing “pure hate” for him in the league.

      “You know they’re not gonna give me anything,” Durant told 95.7 The Game. “Even if it’s on the fence, I have to be clear-cut better than everybody for me to even get a look. It’s just pure hate for me obviously no appreciation for my real skill for the game. But I get it. I understand where we coming from. I understand what we have here in this building that scares everybody.”

      But yeah, incredibly homerish, no basis in reality, blah blah blah, cognitive dissonance bullshit, etc etc etc

    27. thenamestsam

      To Hubert’s argument, for one of the absolute greatest offensive talents we’ve ever seen in the game of basketball, we don’t even really know what a Durant-centric offense looks like. That’s pretty wild. Think about how many years of offenses based around Lebron’s skillet we’ve seen and how we’ve seen those offenses change and evolve along with that skillset over time. But with Durant we’ve only ever seen him fitting in. Obviously he was by far the best player on those OKC teams, but they weren’t built around him, he was always sharing the spotlight, and Westbrook by nature of being the PG always had the lion’s share of the ball (the last time he had the highest usage on the team was 2009-2010 when he was 21, before Westbrook really came into his own). In Golden State the same thing, with Curry edging him in usage and far exceeding him in importance.

      I’m not saying he’s coming to the Knicks. I tend to doubt it. But I do think it’s worth noting how strange his career has been for one of the true offensive greats.

    28. Frank O.

      The Knicks would have to show genuine improvement for Durant to even think of coming to NYC.
      He’s not going to walk into a building project without clear evidence that they have something going on in the garden.
      A lot of guys worship Rucker Park; most all of them don’t want to play for the Knicks in their current state.

      And Durant is 30. I love him. I think he is great, but the Knicks would be paying for past performance and having him likely as he declines. Pass.

    29. lavor postell

      And Durant is 30. I love him. I think he is great, but the Knicks would be paying for past performance and having him likely as he declines. Pass.

      Kevin Durant in his “decline phase” is almost certainly still going to be a stud and a top-5 player at least. This is a player who has posted a TS% of at least 63.3 every year since 2013. If he wants to sign a 4 year max to come to the Knicks you do it immediately, especially since he’s not a LeBron type control freak who is going to demand you mortgage the future at all times for success in the present.

    30. Z-man

      Signing Durant to $40 mill per thru age 35 is a no-brainer. Barring serious injury, he will still be a top-10 player in the league at that age, and maybe top-5. He’s probably the most underrated immortal of all time. His skillset will age well, probably Kareem-like Oh, wait, Jowles disagrees, so it can’t be a no-brainer. Make that an anything-above-post-lobotomy-brainer.

    31. Bruno Almeida

      I do believe Durant will want to leave the Warriors because the one thing we do know about him is that he feels slighted / not given enough credit, and he has said it openly that money is going to be his main focus on free agency.

      What it will come down to is what type of money Golden State offers him. Durant is obviously underpaid relative to his production, and the Warriors have the chance to offer him the biggest contract. If they do, I’m pretty sure he’s staying. If they keep offering him 2 year deals, he’ll leave.

      A part of me would be ecstatic getting Durant simply because he’s instantly the best Knick ever in terms of talent alone. I would feel much better about it if it came together with Zion or Barrett in this year’s draft tho, as the current core plus Durant does not look like a reliable contender.

    32. Farfa

      I would feel much better about it if it came together with Zion or Barrett in this year’s draft tho, as the current core plus Durant does not look like a reliable contender.

      Precisely my point. Paradoxically, the presence of KP is what doesn’t make it click. If we had age-24 Al Horford instead of KP, it’d be a no-brainer.

    33. lavor postell

      Look, there’s no such thing as a “reliable contender”. A few months ago even after losing to Boston, Philly looked set for the future and now, just a few weeks into the season, we’re seeing that they have roster issues, Simmons’ inability to shoot at all is a very real hindrance to them achieving their perceived ceiling, and Embiid and him are both extremely turnover prone.

      I don’t know what Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson, Damyean Dotson and Allonzo Trier are going to develop into. I don’t know if Kristaps Porzingis is going to come back healthy and be able to turn those 1-2 month stretches of elite two-way ball into 82 games+playoffs of it.

      What I do know is that with Frank and Porzingis you have 2 players who have shown All-NBA Defense-level upside. I know that Mitchell Robinson is a freak athlete who flashes athletic ability that is rare and unique among bigs. I know that Damyean Dotson has so far has been the 3-and-D player many thought he could be. I know Allonzo Trier looks like a sparkplug scorer off the bench. Kevin Knox I think has good potential to be a good scorer, but needs to work on his handle and improve his finishing around the rim when he gets there.

      I do know that if you tell me I can add another lottery pick to this mix AND Kevin Durant AND potentially/hopefully retain Noah Vonleh, I’m shooting my shot. This isn’t the Knicks mortgaging the future to clear space for an uninsurable STAT then doubling down on that stupidity by dealing for Melo. Adding a KD when all it costs you is cap space is a no-brainer you do 100 times out of 100. If your core around him doesn’t develop as you hoped you still have the flex to deal them for better pieces OR decide to pull the plug, take a step back and deal Durant who will have 29 teams willing to trade for him because he’s Kevin fucking Durant.

      Let’s not overthink this.

    34. Frank O.

      lavor postell

      If you look at some of the more recent great ball players, say, Jordan, James, Bird, Johnson, and Bryant, all but James declined to varying degrees. I realize this is splitting hairs, and not the strongest argument. I mean these are sublime talents.

      Nonetheless, given the max salary Durant will get, I’m wary. These guys are healthy until they aren’t.
      I’m just not a fan of max salaries for guys 30 and older. I recognize it is a bias.

    35. Hubert

      Signing Durant to $40 mill per thru age 35 is a no-brainer. Barring serious injury, he will still be a top-10 player in the league at that age, and maybe top-5.

      One fact that Jowles continually overlooks when he puts forth his nonsensical argument that we’d be paying for Durant’s decline years is that we would never actually have 35 year old Durant. If we sign him to a max this summer, we’re paying for his age 31, 32, 33, and 34 seasons. He would turn 35 after the contract expired.

      I think it’s reasonable-to-likely that of those 4 years, we’d get at least 2 peak Durant seasons, meaning MVP caliber seasons. Age 33 and 34 seasons are likely to be pretty good, too. And if we’re fortunate, Porzingis is coming into his own as Durant enters his age 33 year to offset any drop. I’d take that all day.

      For perspective, Jordan unretired at age 31. We all know Jowles wouldn’t have signed up for 1994-1998 Michael Jordan because he’s smarter than everyone here. But I think those of us who breath through our mouths would have been happy with a great player at age 31 back then.

    36. ProjectKnicks

      We don’t know that Durant wants to leave the Warriors. But, even if that’s the case, why on earth would he want to sink his career playing with an organization so bereft of talent, leadership and future like the New York Knicks?

      Money? He can get it elsewhere. Winning? He is leaving the Warriors!!! (supposedly, remember?). Being ‘the man’? He will be virtually anywhere he goes from the Warriors.

      Why would he want to lead a bunch of losers for four years, just like Melo did? (with the huge difference Melo, unlike Durant, was a loser himself)? Why should Durant settle for first or second-round playoff exits and years of 45-50 wins (at best)?

      Delusional homerism by posters who should have a bit more common sense. I’m 100% with Jowles on this one.

    37. ProjectKnicks

      For perspective, Jordan unretired at age 31. We all know Jowles wouldn’t have signed up for 1994-1998 Michael Jordan because he’s smarter than everyone here. But I think those of us who breath through our mouths would have been happy with a great player at age 31 back then.

      There was a good team waiting for Jordan – that’s would not be the case for Durant.

      Huge difference.

      It seems most of you guys are mini-Dolans, without much of a basketball brain beyond coming up with silly, contrived scenarios where the Knicks magically go from worst to best with one huge move.

    38. english_knick

      It’s almost like committing all our cap space to a 31-year-old top 5 player when our team is at least a year,probably more, off the win curve that would ideally make sense, is neither a no-brainer good move nor a no brainier bad one, but a tough judgement call that could go either way.

      Or are all shades of grey banned in 2018?

      (2for18 – read the article, really interesting. Won’t bore everyone here with a long answer – my basic view is that the examples are troubling and worthy of discussion within a very complex set of issues around cyber regulation. Not sure I agree they’re that close to fascism or a sign of a broader descent in that direction in Britain. Definitely an interesting read though – thanks. )

    39. Frank O.

      Can we for a moment stop calling people stupid. FFS

      There is evidence of clear decline in players after 30.
      There are sublime talents who have great value after 30.

      But those sublime talents largely played for incredible teams, save James.
      Jordan returned to a team with Hall of Fame talent, Magic, Bird, even Kobe, Tim Duncan, all these guys played in their 30s for solid to very good to great teams.
      This Knicks team is in a total rebuild. It is different.

    40. Farfa

      I think getting Durant is a net positive anyway. I’m much more worried in giving a max extension to KP when he has proven absolutely nothing about his value over the course of a full season. I’m a KP fan, but giving him young superstar money is what might hinder our development.

      I guess we don’t have much of a choice either way.

    41. lavor postell

      @Frank O.

      It is different, but I don’t think that should influence the Knicks’ thinking. We’re going to suck this year. At that point we’ll have have 4 lottery picks on the roster, with 3 still on their rookie scale deals. We also have Dotson and MitchRob as 2nd round picks who, at the very least, show enough potential to pencil them in as viable rotation players off the bench and potentially more. We also, presumably, will have Trier who has also shown similar potential.

      If you can add Kevin Durant to that mix, KP returns to full health and some of those guys hit you’re not so far off that contending a year or two down the line is impossible. I think NOT signing KD, in the event he wants to come to the Knicks, is far too risk averse and cautious. We’re talking about one of the greatest offensive talents in the history of the NBA who can score at will from anywhere on the floor against anybody. A guy who has gone toe-to-toe in the Finals against LeBron.

      You don’t get the chance to sign, draft or trade for players of that caliber very often unless you’re the Lakers or the Celtics apparently. If you get the chance to simply acquire such a player at age 31, assuming he hasn’t shown major signs of decline, with cap space and without sacrificing assets you should definitely pull the trigger.

    42. Frank

      We don’t know that Durant wants to leave the Warriors. But, even if that’s the case, why on earth would he want to sink his career playing with an organization so bereft of talent, leadership and future like the New York Knicks?

      I think the reason most people are entertaining this thought because very well connected people are saying that they think it will happen. Zach Lowe. Windhorst. Several others. These aren’t Stephen A Smith or other guys that don’t have real sources or just blab rumors that have no basis in reality– they HAVE real sources and are generally conservative with the stuff they put out there. And honestly I think the actual story / narrative is plausible, even if somewhat homerish.

    43. Hubert

      Frank O and Project Knicks,

      NBA teams can go from “complete rebuild” to “championship contender” in one one summer. We’ve seen it with the Celtics (they won 24 games the year before assembling the big 3) and the Cavs (a 33 win team with one good young player before LeBron joined). You simply have to convince a star you’re going in the correct direction.

      I would not sign Durant and ask him to play with Tim Hardaway and a bunch of kids. You make further moves to bring in a third top piece right away. Kevin Knox isn’t Durant’s teammate, he’s the Andrew Wiggins chip that gets Durant a good teammate.

      Durant + Porzingis + an established all star + Frank + Zion/Barrett/Little/Reddish with Burke, Dotson, Robinson, and whoever we can pick up with the room exception and our leftover space is absolutely not a team bereft of talent. It’s a championship contender.

    44. Frank

      I think NOT signing KD, in the event he wants to come to the Knicks, is far too risk averse and cautious. We’re talking about one of the greatest offensive talents in the history of the NBA who can score at will from anywhere on the floor against anybody. A guy who has gone toe-to-toe in the Finals against LeBron.

      Agree completely. And not just what lavor said, but also the dude is a switchable defender who rebounds and protects the rim with his 7’6″ wingspan.

      If you look at some of the more recent great ball players, say, Jordan, James, Bird, Johnson, and Bryant, all but James declined to varying degrees.

      I think comparing guys from the 80s and 90s to the 2010s-20s is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Nutrition/sleep/exercise science are so much more advanced now. The schedule is easier. Everyone is on private jets.

    45. Frank O.

      lavor postell

      I think you make some great points. As I posted earlier, I think we have some really hopeful talents on this team, young as they are.

      But as you lay out your case three questions emerge for me:
      1. You say,

      If you get the chance to simply acquire such a player at age 31, assuming he hasn’t shown major signs of decline, with cap space and without sacrificing assets you should definitely pull the trigger.

      AND some of the talent on the Knicks actually work out, isn’t this the most advantageous scenario, and is this truly how it will play out? I would agree with you if all of these pieces fall into place. But it is a best case scenario.
      2. I agree that Durant is a great offensive talent, one of the best, but he has never stood alone as he would with the Knicks. On teams like OKC, with Westbrook and some other very good players, and on GSW, he has Hall of Fame talent, he has benefited from these other talents in that he did not see double-teams routinely. One instructive aspect of Melo’s reign in NYC was that coming here, he often saw double and triple teams thrown his way, in part because he was a black hole, but also because he really was the only reliable scorer for years. How will Durant’s otherworldly scoring ability look if every night he is the focus of the other team’s double teams and physical play? He would be the guy, no Curry, no Westbrook, no Thompson. I suspect this would wear on him.
      3. If these two questions are valid concerns, why would he want to spend the end of his career being asked to do more than ever before, in a city that literally punishes you if you don’t meet expectations from Wall Street to 4 Pennsylvania Plaza?

    46. domiknick

      33-year-old LeBron James, the best player alive, just signed a 4-year deal with a rebuilding team that won 35 games last year and has won an average of 25 games the past 5 years.

      I can say with 100% certainty no one knows what Durant is going to do and anyone who pretends to is a moron.

    47. Hubert

      What it will come down to is what type of money Golden State offers him. Durant is obviously underpaid relative to his production, and the Warriors have the chance to offer him the biggest contract. If they do, I’m pretty sure he’s staying. If they keep offering him 2 year deals, he’ll leave.

      I think you have the most sensible take, Bruno. I ultimately think that 5 years, $220 million, is going to get the deal done for Golden State.

      But there are a few points I vehemently disagree with:

      1. The idea that there are no personal/basketball reasons Durant would want to leave Golden State.

      2. The idea that signing him would be a bad investment for us because he’s too old.

      3. The idea that we can’t accelerate the win curve upon acquiring him by moving a few pieces.

      4. The idea that we’re a hopeless disaster who no one in his right mind would ever want to join.

      I think there is ample evidence to counter all those points and have put them forth as best I can.

    48. Z-man

      Michael Jordan retired at age 34 after playing 3100+ minutes (39mpg!!) of regular season play at a WS48 of .238 and 900+ minutes (41.5 mpg!!!!!) of playoff basketball at a WS48 of ..265

      Magic Johnson sat out 4 years after learning he was HIV-positive (a death sentence at the time) at age 31. He came back at age 36 and still posted a WS48 of .181 despite popping debilitating meds daily.

      Larry Bird had chronic back issues starting in his 20’s.

      Tim Duncan was great all through his 31-35 years. So was David Robinson, Karl Malone and John Stockton. Others like Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen fell of in the midst of their early thirties but were still very effective players.

      Signing any player to a max deal is risky, but a no-brainer is a no-brainer. Would you bet right now that Giannis (suspect shooting?), or AD (injury-prone?), will have a better season in 2022-23 than Durant? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

    49. 2FOR18, understands math

      Thanks English.

      OK, allow me to be delusional: If we can somehow trade Timmy and Lee (I’d include Knox if it helps), we can sign Durant and Kemba/Kyrie, plus hopefully one of the Duke kids. That makes this team an instant ECF contender and Durant becomes the King of NY.

    50. lavor postell

      @Frank O.

      1. I think if KP is healthy and Frank can hit 3s at 37% clip or more those are two guys who at the minimum are plus two-way players that give you the foundation, if not the baseline, of an elite defense. Move KP down the pecking order in usage and put him under a coach who won’t indulge his mid-range fantasies, but is more likely to get him to shoot more 3’s as a I suspect Fizdale will do, I think you’re looking at a solid #2 and extremely good #3 option. I’m less confident about the rest, although I do think Dotson and MitchRob will end up being 25+ MPG rotation guys, starters or otherwise, but I do think we’d need to find a “second star”, offensively anyways.

      2. When he played without Russ in OKC for half a season he was elite and won an MVP award. I also think he has more support in guys like KP and Hardaway to start with even if they’re not the ideal combination punch behind him you want or eventually will hope for. If you sign KD for 4 years you have time to make moves to add more talent though.

      3. I haven’t discussed KD’s motivations, because I don’t know. The pressure of delivering in New York is real, but if you do then you’re talking about a player who could credibly be talked about as the greatest of his generation, even over LeBron, something he’s never going to get waltzing to chip-after-chip in GSW. Maybe that’s his motivation. Idk. I’ve only been discussing why from the Knicks perspective they should 100% sign Durant if he wants to come here.

    51. Frank O.

      Frank,

      NBA teams started chartering jets in the early 1990s. FWIW.
      Duncan and Kobe are contemporary comparisons.
      I agree some things have changed, but not as much as we think.
      Take Baseball. After the steroid era, players are generally declining as they did in the pre-steroid era.
      Of course, this year changing the ball probably will extend careers.
      Every era claims it has found the secret sauce, but the overall trend if it changes as all, it is at the fringes.

      With all that science has provided, the 100-meter world record is Bolt’s 9.58, Bob Hayes had the world record in 1964 of 10.06. Carl Lewis was at 9.86 in 1988. In 30 years, improvement was .28.

    52. danvt

      Awesome misspell from a musician.

      Ha! Didn’t realize…

      As to the Beatles analogy, let’s not forget that none of their work post breakup was even remotely close to the quality of work they had been producing. Harrison’s “All Things Must Pass” was probably the best of this work and makes for an argument that he should have had a greater role as a songwriter and singer in the band.

      In other words, I get that guys wanna be recognized as individuals, but it’s the wrong choice to leave a situation that is not only functional but historically excellent.

      Of course you sign him if you’re the Knicks and he wants to come but you are the Knicks and he will not. The question is what you do when he doesn’t and the answer to that may be a clue to the reason why he won’t.

    53. swiftandabundant

      The year before the Celtics won their title back in 2008, they only won like 25 games. They then traded for Garnett, who was past 30 and signed Ray Allen, who was also past 30. And they kept Pierce who was 29 or 30. That aging, declining core won over 60 games and a title that year. 2 seasons later they were a few minutes away from winning a second title. A few seasons after that they got to the ECF against Miami.

      I get people wanting a super young core. I get being wary of signing an older player to a max contract. But if the best basketball player in the NBA wants to go to your team when he’s at his peak as a player, why in god’s name would you not sign him? Especially if we can sign him outright without giving up assetts in a trade.

      No one thought anything of Rondo his rookie year either. But once he got some experience under his belt and was surrounded by hall of fame players, he looked really good. And that final trip they made to the ECF a few years later…well yes, Allen, Garnett and Pierce had declined at that point but Rondo had improved enough to make up for it.

    54. Frank O.

      lavor postell, z-man, hubert et al

      I appreciate what you guys are saying. I’m not convinced this is the slam dunk you are, but you make very compelling points.
      I think asking a 31-year-old great player to take on a challenge he has never, ever faced comes with risk, but I agree that even degraded, he would still be an elite player for at least a couple years of four, and maybe more.
      But he has never faced this kind of adversity, ever. He has always played with people who took MORE heat than him. One could argue that Scottie Pippen was a Hall of Famer because of Jordan. No one says Westbrook was good great because of Durant and Curry was already perhaps the greatest shooter ever before Durant arrived.
      I believe the Knicks, if Durant would come, would sign him without blinking an eye. I just don’t think he’s going to be the player he’s been under new circumstances.
      I know this is a fringe view.
      But thanks for the discussion.

    55. Bruno Almeida

      I think I’m somewhere in the middle of the discussion as I don’t think Durant is a no-brainer signing, as his age and the fact that our roster is less than ideal are relevant aspects of the situstion, but I’d still sign him.

      The fact is simply that his production is otherworldly and transformative, and some of his most amazing skills are skills that are very likely to stay with him through his physical decline, specially the unstoppable shooting. It is a gamble in a way, that he will be able to stay productive in a far lesser team with his body no longer in 100% shape, but it’s a gamble worth taking in my opinion. Acquiring a superstar like Durant opens up possibilities for moves and it’s much easier to try and get better with a guy like him already in place.

    56. ProjectKnicks

      I think the debate has been shifted from the original question. Signing him as a free agent for four years, IF POSSIBLE, is clearly something the Knicks should probably do, as there is very little risk involved.

      Little debate there.

      The real question is: why would anyone think that’s a realistic possibility?

      Yes, there are ‘rumors’ by ‘well-connected people’, but those people’s jobs are to spread rumors (sometimes news) as needed by their ‘sources’. Durant-to-New York rumors perfectly fit the category of ‘negotiating tactic’ for better teams, better money, better conditions.

    57. Frank

      2. I agree that Durant is a great offensive talent, one of the best, but he has never stood alone as he would with the Knicks. On teams like OKC, with Westbrook and some other very good players, and on GSW, he has Hall of Fame talent, he has benefited from these other talents in that he did not see double-teams routinely.

      In 2015-16 in the minutes Westbrook was off the floor but Durant was on (1900 possessions), OKC had a 115.6 offensive rating. The most commonly used lineup included future hall of famers Enes Kanter, Kyle Singler, Dion Waiters, and Randy Foye. seems like the offense was ok centered around him.

    58. danvt

      George Harrison was the most talented one of The Beatles

      George was sublime but I’m not sure you can say that.

      Who’s the most talented Warrior? Pound for pound Steph is the best player I’ve ever seen but as to impact? Maybe KD?

      Point is, collections of various types of talent make for greatness. One of the things that made George great was that he sang great harmony and played great guitar parts and solos. He made Paul and John shine with his contributions. If only all organizations had such synergy. And it is amazing how egos get in the way of them keeping it.

    59. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Harrison’s “All Things Must Pass” was probably the best of this work and makes for an argument that he should have had a greater role as a songwriter and singer in the band.

      Funny, I was listening to “Run of the Mill” yesterday (perhaps the best song on the album’s first movement, which rivals any Beatles album in its beauty and scope; the “Apple Jam” sides just give me flashbacks to interminable Hudson Valley blues jams). I don’t think there’s much of an argument for anything in McCartney’s later work and Lennon’s Plastic Ono stuff is way overrated. Of course, Harrison could pretty much only do the Americana (ironically {Canadian} The Band-influenced) sound, so his act had a shelf life, but it certainly hit a high point with ATMP.

      It’s amazing how guys like Paul Simon, David Bowie and Tom Waits emerged from the 70s with wild new inventive sounds (Rain Dogs, in particular, is an album so unique and recorded so perfectly that it will likely never go out of style) whereas all of the ex-Beatles’ songwriters soon thereafter released their last worthwhile work, and then rode the Beatles’ coattails to sustained mediocrity at exorbitant ticket prices. Cue Phil Jackson analogy.

      As for Durant, I’m not saying that no team should sign him to a max this offseason. It just shouldn’t be a team that’s lucky to win 25 this year. And yeah, sure — point to the Celtics as the replicable model of overnight success. I bet the Knicks will really leverage all of those extra lottery picks that they’ve gotten through shrewd trades along with their long-term, locked-up, underpaid, surplus-value veterans like Kyle O’Quinn.

      If we’re counting on Porzingis to be a franchise savior after this ACL tear, we’re in big trouble.

    60. Grocer

      In the extremely unlikely situation that KD wants to come to the Knicks then we should sign him, assuming he has an injury free year. I don’t think it’s a sure thing that we’ll end up any better than a 1st round exit while he’s here but guys at that level are rare and we should take advantage. It’ll end badly though, as we’ll trade away picks and young guys to acquire ‘established’ talent and when he leaves after 2 years (because of course his last two years will be player options) for a long term contract with some team that’s less fucked up than us and who’s media is so blisteringly foul, we’ll be back in that old familiar hole with a bunch of useless vets, no young talent and missing a pick every other year for the next 6 or 8. Unless he gets injured in which case we’ll also have a giant albatross contract hanging over us.

      But not signing him should he want to come here would lead to Mills and Perry getting fired, and there’s a possibility it could work out.

    61. Hubert

      One of the things that made George great was that he sang great harmony and played great guitar parts and solos. He made Paul and John shine with his contributions.

      That’s why I think Klay is the apt comparison on that team. Klay’s versatility on defense is his harmony, and his shooting is his guitar solos. Klay’s Game 6 v OKC is George’s “Here comes the sun”. His 14 threes the other night was “While my guitar gently weeps.” But for the most part he’s always supported a star on offense (Steph) and on defense (Draymond), and his contributions (which are difficult to quantify statistically) are a huge reason those two stars shine.

      Durant as George doesn’t work because if Durant went solo he’d come up with something better than “I’ve got my mind set on you”.

    62. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Durant as George doesn’t work because if Durant went solo he’d come up with something better than “I’ve got my mind set on you”.

      Someone needs to listen to All Things Must Pass.

    63. danvt

      Love Rain Dogs…

      One of the reasons for it’s greatness is the amazing ensemble featuring Keith Richards, Michael Blair, Marc Ribot, etc.

      Great songs and an outstanding band (perfect sounds, production) making for one of the best records ever.

      Synergy…the collective…seems simple but greatness takes talent and willingness to be part of something greater than yourself.

    64. alsep73

      His 14 threes the other night was “While my guitar gently weeps.”

      So who in this analogy is Eric Clapton, whom Harrison brought in to play lead guitar on that song?

    65. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      So who in this analogy is Eric Clapton, whom Harrison brought in to play lead guitar on that song?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mnDSI-fRp4

      I learned the lead part on this years ago, and could never figure out why I couldn’t make my tone as vocal as the recording’s. Then I found out it was Clapton and settled on playing the rhythm part.

    66. Hubert

      So who in this analogy is Eric Clapton, whom Harrison brought in to play lead guitar on that song?

      Hmm, who equates to being the supremely talented guitarist that the Beatles brought in for a moment to take something to an extra level but who ultimately was too talented to stay in a superband because he needed to do his own thing? I give up.

    67. Ntilakilla

      What I don’t is get is how no one is talking about Kawhi Leonard as a potential FA land for the Knicks the same way they speak of Kevin Durant. It was reported, back when he was rumored to be seeking a trade from SA, that NYC was one of the destinations Leonard was lobbying to join. Notice no one is mentioning him anymore the way they are Durant.

    68. danvt

      Rolling Stones didn’t want Clapton. Tony Sanchez says as much in Up and Down with the Rolling Stones. Too much of a hero. Ron Wood and Keith Richards were pretty much interchangeable. Just feel players.

      That’s a great solo but it’s always bothered me that folks interpreted it as George “needing” Eric. The solo is a George solo. All the lyricism and melodic flow. Clapton was doing his best George impression.

    69. danvt

      #73 like comparing which championship year was better…Who cares. They took the prize. None are Eagles albums (nothing against the Eagles, just sayin’)

    70. d-mar

      Agree 100% that Harrison’s solo career surpassed that of the other Beatles (although we can’t forget Ringo’s “Back off Boogaloo”) And some of Paul McCartney’s recent solo stuff is such absolute dreck, there’s no doubt in my mind that if any other artist put this music out they’d be ridiculed. Try listening to “Come On to Me” sometime and tell me you don’t agree.

    71. danvt

      I think there is a flaw in the BOS 2008 strategy. Same as the present one around LBJ in LA and the possibility of KD coming here. Not that I’d say no to a championship team with a short window but I’d rather be SAS and have a twenty year run of excellence. Maybe Zion Williamson is that incendiary talent and the players we buy and put around him can augment him for a few years and then ride off into the sunset.

      I agree that you can’t say no to KD or Kawhi (I got you 74), but I’d almost rather just have multiple quality athletes and build a system right now. Certainly if you don’t land the big fish you don’t go and give the money to someone anyone who once made an all start squad. This is what I’m scared of, a repeat of 2010.

    72. Grocer

      KAT looks lost, and sad. Seems to have given up. Mayhap we can entice Thibs to part with him for one of our tryhards.

    73. Hubert

      Dan,

      1. Please go on musical tangents as much as you like. Great to hear your thoughts on the subject.

      2. Re:

      Not that I’d say no to a championship team with a short window but I’d rather be SAS and have a twenty year run of excellence. Maybe Zion Williamson is that incendiary talent and the players we buy and put around him can augment him for a few years and then ride off into the sunset.

      I normally would agree with this sentiment. Here’s why I don’t in this particular case:

      I don’t think our young core is not that good. Porzingis is no Duncan. Knox could surprise but there’s a lot of red flags. I like Frank, but he needs a lot around him to succeed. I don’t think these guys plus a top pick next year are the foundation of a sustainable championship core. I think it’s better to leverage the perception of their value than to go all in on them.

      Following the 2006 Celtic model (and, incidentally, they upgraded from a 24 win team to a 66 win team with just one lottery pick and no cap space; it’s not like they were hoarding assets) makes sense in this case because:

      a) it slides Porzingis down to a supporting star. I don’t like him matching up with Giannis, but I’m pleased with him as our Middleton.

      b) normally trading a young guy for an established star would bother me, but I think Knox is a lot like Wiggins in the sense that he has more value as a trade chip than a future player.

      c) it puts Frank in the best position to succeed, i.e. a non ball-handling PG.

      And it’s not like we’d be going all in on an old core like the Celtics did. We’d still have Porzingis, Frank, our 2019 pick, etc. There would be life after Durant.

    74. Ntilakilla

      like comparing which championship year was better…Who cares

      I do because you can actually tell a lot about a person’s interpretation of the Beatles by which Beatles albums they prefer. Do you see an album as an integrated whole greater than the sum of its parts? Then the thematic and stylistic unity of Sgt. Pepper is for you. Do you prefer the greater variation and believe that an album should present an eclectic range of sounds, styles, and themes? Then the White Album and Abbey Rode are more for you. Do you not like the Beatles at all? Then you have no taste at all.

      For me the White Album is the ultimate Beatles album because it occupies a middle position in that spectrum between Sgt. Pepper’s unified psychedelic styling and Abbey Road, when they all were writing music with individual post-Beatles careers in mind. The output on that album was prolific with just the right amount of everything, showing how eclectic the Beatles could be.

    75. danvt

      @81
      Thanks. Something I actually know something about, lol

      As to the rest, as long as we value assets wisely, I’m good. If we eventually push in all the chips it should at least result in something exciting like the Ewing years, with tough fought series and big energy at the Garden. Though I’ll be disappointed if I don’t get at least one title before the big sleep…

      So pathetic to go all in and end up back in the lotto with no pick…

    76. Grocer

      And it’s not like we’d be going all in on an old core like the Celtics did. We’d still have Porzingis, Frank, our 2019 pick, etc. There would be life after Durant.

      I wasn’t being facetious in 65. As others (and you) have mentioned, our core isn’t nearly ready. If we sign Durant we’ll trade away everything we have to so as to acquire a bunch of sub-standard vets to put around him who will be, presumably, ready. Going all in on Durant means a return to a constant win now mentality, it’s an abdication of the future. We’ve seen this movie before. Durant’s a bigger star, but the plot is exactly the same.

    77. Bruno Almeida

      I don’t like the Beatles at all. They just don’t speak to me in an affectual level unfortunately. But I love the musical tangents!

    78. swiftandabundant

      Revolver is my favorite Beatles album but mainly because I tend to be a big fan of the “album before the album”…ie, the album right before a band’s masterpiece where you can hear them taking that big leap to the next level and you know their magnus opus is about to come. Its the same reason why I like “The Bends” better than OK Computer for Radiohead.

    79. swiftandabundant

      Its the same with me for basketball. I’ve never experienced a Knicks championship but for me if we can put together a great team of young players, seeing that team when they first start to put it together is the most exciting part. Like when Golden State was a 50 win team and steph was starting to really become a star, that was more enjoyable for me than their dominance now. Same with OKC when they first had their big three. Or the Bulls right before they started winning it all. Its fun to watch a good team become great and figure out how to be champions.

    80. Ntilakilla

      There is some evidence to actually think that KP-Frank provides the basis for a defensively dominant lineup down the road. They allowed just 95.9 points per 100 possessions in 366 minutes on the floor together. We need to see more, but keep in mind how stark the difference is when you consider the terrible defensive talent they were surrounded with. Frank has to play with guys like Kanter patrolling the paint without KP and KP had to play with guys like Jack guarding the perimeter. The Knicks played 107.9 points per 100 possessions in 2,527 minutes with one of the two on the floor, and 113.8 points per 100 possessions in 1,072 minutes with neither on the floor.

      You add Mitchell Robinson and a long defensive wing who can knock threes and handle ball like Kawhi or Durant and there is serious potential for a very good team.

    81. alsep73

      I prefer Revolver and Rubber Soul because they’re tonally cohesive like Sgt. Pepper, even as I find myself wanting to listen to the songs over and over in a way I don’t with a bunch of Sgt. Pepper tracks. (Primarily in the middle third of the song list.) Sgt. Pepper’s an amazing achievement, but I never need to hear Fixing a Hole or Mr. Kite or several others ever again.

    82. Ntilakilla

      Its the same reason why I like “The Bends” better than OK Computer for Radiohead.

      Even they liked The White Album better. Go and listen to Karma Police and tell me the bridge wasn’t ripped from Sexy Sadie.

    83. nicos

      Well if this is the Warriors last go-round as currently configured then Durant is definitely the McCartney of the Warriors- he’s the guy pulling the most weight (as McCartney did in the Get Back Sessions/Let It Be and Abbey Road) but for some reason a lot of people seem to have a problem with him. Of course that means if he does come here the best we probably have to look forward to is Ram- great in hindsight but disappointing at the time- followed by The Wings- perfectly competent and again better in retrospect but hardly the transcendent work he’ll be remembered for. Still solo McCartney probably beats everything since the Ewing-era Knicks so…

    84. Hubert

      We’ve seen this movie before. Durant’s a bigger star, but the plot is exactly the same.

      Yes and no, Grocer.

      In Durant, we’d be getting someone who would legitimately be one of the best players in the league. We’ve always gone for the fake versions of that, like Amar’e Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony.

      Going all in on Durant means… an abdication of the future

      I think it’s an upgrade of the future, tbh. Short and long term. If we’d been drafting at the top of the lottery the last few years and had Porzingis, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, and Luka Doncic, I would agree with you 1000%. But it’s Porzingis, Frank, and Knox. I really don’t think those guys are ever going to develop into a championship core.

    85. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Almost every part of this thread today is absurd.

      1. If you have a chance to sign KD, of course you do it. While players decline past 28, great players decline less, and truly great players – like, all-time great players, like KD – remain great well into their 30s unless they are diagnosed with HIV or exacerbate back problems by running marathons.

      2. We may or may not have a core to go around him today, but when you add a KD, and you have a lot of young assets, you can create that core MUCH more easily. I believe we have enough if we trade Knox for a real player, a la Wiggins. You can argue whether it would be as fun to just add KD rather than grow more organically, but if we were in the ECF, as we almost certainly would be, we’d get over it.

      3. KD does not need greatness around him to be great. He is great. He has been great without other great players, and with other great players. It is this kind of dumb statement that makes him want to be somewhere other than GS.

      4. You may feel it’s foolish to want to play for the Knicks, but league opinion with Perry and Fiz is contrary to that perception. And where there is that much smoke, there is usually fire, whether it makes sense to us or not.

      5. George Harrison was a competent musician who had the luck of a lifetime hooking up with Paul and John, who were technically gifted and extremely driven. Harrison’s guitar work wasn’t even great for his era! Compare him to someone truly talented, like Hendrix, and it’s laughable. His songwriting is generally OK at best, with ATMP as a very respectable peak – but one heavily influenced by working next to genius songwriters in Lennon and McCartney. Lennon and McCartney’s inconsistency as solo acts has a lot more to do with smoking too much weed and falling in love with a loon than a referendum on their skills.

    86. Z-man

      My favorite Beatles album is Rubber Soul (the American vinyl release with “I’ve just seen a face” on it.

    87. Ntilakilla

      Of course that means if he does come here the best we probably have to look forward to is Ram- great in hindsight but disappointing at the time- followed by The Wings- perfectly competent and again better in retrospect but hardly the transcendent work he’ll be remembered for

      Not a fan of Band on the Run, huh? The fascinating thing about Wings is how no one born after 1980 remembers them or cares to cover/sample their music. Even McCarthy is very meh about leading what was one of the biggest commercial draws of the 1970s.

    88. Z-man

      And the album with the most of my favorite all-time songs (i.e. if you filter out the mediocre ones) is Let It Be. And the rooftop concert featuring some of those songs is one of the greatest live events in RnR history.

    89. Ntilakilla

      Lennon and McCartney’s inconsistency as solo acts has a lot more to do with smoking too much weed and falling in love with a loon than a referendum on their skills.

      People crap on Yoko but I think Lennon’s bigger problem was the heroin. Their relationship was all sorts of fucked up but she did influence some of his best songwriting during the late 1960s and early 1970s, including the best post-Beatles album in Plastic Ono Band.

    90. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      6. Also, St Pepper’s is HUGELY overrated, simply because it was groundbreaking at the time. It doesn’t hold up well. I concur completely on Mr Kite etc, and also concur that “Rubber Soul” is more fun, that “White Album” has better songs, and disagree only by saying that “Abbey Road” is the best album – as cohesive as St Pepper’s, but with better material.

      7. Speaking of “Abbey Road,” it is the best evidence that Ringo is better than George. Those drum parts are genius, fluid in a way that Harrison never achieved on his instrument. And really, George Martin is the fourth or probably third-best Beatle. Harrison is fifth.

      8. “The Bends” is not as good an album as “OK Computer,” but I rarely listen to it because I’d rather play “High and Dry” and “Fake Plastic Trees” ten times in a row. But “In Rainbows” is clearly Radiohead’s best, because they integrate good songwriting with formal inventiveness and sonic adventurousness.

    91. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      People crap on Yoko but I think Lennon’s bigger problem was the heroin.

      Yeah, but the heroin didn’t get its own B-side of yodeling or whatever TF she does.

    92. Ntilakilla

      Yeah, but the heroin didn’t get its own B-side of yodeling or whatever TF she does.

      If the source of that yodeling gives inspiration to songs like Julia, Happiness is a Warm Gun, and I Want You (She’s So Heavy) I will gladly endure it the way a team accepts Lebron’s entourage or Harden’s god awful beard.

    93. Hubert

      People crap on Yoko but I think Lennon’s bigger problem was the heroin

      This is my favorite line of the day. I like understatements.

      If y’all want to permanently replace the political interludes with expressions of your musical opinions, by all means, please.

    94. nicos

      Not a fan of Band on the Run, huh? The fascinating thing about Wings is how no one born after 1980 remembers them or cares to cover/sample their music. Even McCarthy is very meh about leading what was one of the biggest commercial draws of the 1970s.

      The highlights are great (Jet is as good as anything any Beatle recorded in the 70s) but overall The Wings basketball equivalent is probably losing in a competitive conference finals. And that would be better than the Knicks have done since Ewing.

    95. Max

      The musical argument is amazing, a brilliant and refreshing way to distance this thread from the tedium that is trying to guess what’s in the mind of a 30 year old millionaire who’s so self absorbed that he created burner accounts to defend his reputation on Twitter.

      I hope we’ll not spend the next 8 months talking about KD’s free agency, the arguments are the same we used in the past for similar situation (LeBron James anyone?) and we know the results.
      If KD will come fine, we’ll be a contender in the East and everyone (or maybe just the majority) will be happy , in the meantime let us hope we’ll get Zion or RJ.

      And let’s go on with the musical theme (I love Rain Dogs) :-)

    96. Bruno Almeida

      Ok, now when someone says The Bends is better than OK Computer, that’s when I feel personally atttacked!

      Jokes aside of course I can see the argument and I’m suspect because I’m a sucker for anything Thom Yorke has ever done, but OK Computer is still at another level for me. I feel it’s the more mature work but it still has that peculiar feel of a band that has something it needs to express in musical ways. As much as I love Radiohead’s later albums and the other works of Thom Yorke, they feel much more cerebral than an affectual expression of emotion / this necessity to put something out to the world, which is 100% The Bends and in OK Computer, for me, it reaches it’s maximum expression with maturity and a balance with the cerebral approach.

    97. alsep73

      This is definitely the best thread we’ve had here in a long time. I’m half-tempted to tell non-Knick fan friends who like hoops and music to check it out.

    98. Ntilakilla

      This is my favorite line of the day. I like understatements.

      LOL. You know, I really was careful in that assessment. It’s hard to separate the heroin from Yoko in John’s life. The two were really intertwined and influenced his music in very opposite ways as both great inspirations to, and great detractions from, his music genius.

    99. Ntilakilla

      (Jet is as good as anything any Beatle recorded in the 70s)

      Jet was a good as Imagine or My Sweet Lord? And before I get the inevitable hipster “Imagine was overrated” response from someone I just want to remind you all that Jet was a song about Paul and Linda’s fucking dog, Imagine was about world peace and My Sweet Lord was about a man’s relationship with god.

    100. Count de Pennies

      @86
      I agree, somewhat. I do like the Beatles but IMO their greatest contributions to the musical universe was in the influence they had on other artists who used their sound & ideas as a foundation to create music that I find much more appealing.

      For instance, many artists in your native Brazil back in the ’60s and 70s appear to have fallen under the spell of the Beatles and used that as an inspiration to create masterpieces uniquely their own. A very short list of some of the records that fit this description and with which I am far more enamored than anything by the Fab Four are Milton & Lo Borges’ Clube da Esquina, Gil’s Frevo Rasgado and Expresso 2222 and Jorge Ben’s A Tabua de Esmeralda Although I’m not that knowledgable about the rich world of Brazilian music and do not speak a word of Portuguese, those albums speak to me in a way the Beatles do not. At the same time, I can hear the clear Beatles influence in each of them and can’t help but wonder how these records might have been different without it.

      And, oh yeah, mark me down as a big “Yes” on KD. I think he will flourish as the Alpha Dog in NY for at least the first two years of his deal. After that, who knows? But it sure would be fun to find out.

    101. Hubert

      And some of Paul McCartney’s recent solo stuff is such absolute dreck, there’s no doubt in my mind that if any other artist put this music out they’d be ridiculed. Try listening to “Come On to Me” sometime and tell me you don’t agree.

      If I’m stuck in a crowd (like at a mall, or on 5th Ave) and I hear Simply Having A Wonderful Christmas Time, I’ll get triggered.

    102. 2FOR18, understands math

      Wow, Jimmy Butler is refusing to play tonight. What a clown show that franchise is. Makes the Knicks look like a well oiled machine.

    103. alsep73

      One point in favor of “Jet” — and relevant to our particular interests — is that it’s fun to replace “Ah mater” with either “Ron Baker” or “Thon Maker.”

    104. Bruno Almeida

      @109

      Those are some amazing references! Yeah, the Beatles were a huge influence… some other great examples amongst the best Brazilian music you’ll find are Mutantes, specially the album Divina Comedia, Novos Baianos (a huge personal favorite, Acabou Chorare is a must listen to album) and Secos & Molhados (brilliant for a long time, but specially their first album). They all somewhat derive from psychedelic and were heavily influenced by drugs and the search for personal freedom, it was an incredibly rich moment for music around here. Gilberto Gil is probably my all-time favorite still.

    105. nicos

      Jet was a good as Imagine or My Sweet Lord? And before I get the inevitable hipster “Imagine was overrated” response from someone I just want to remind you all that Jet was a song about Paul and Linda’s fucking dog, Imagine was about world peace and My Sweet Lord was about a man’s relationship with god.

      Ha, Make it since 1972 but while I’m no hipster I’m no fan of Imagine- I just find it both sanctimonious and banal. I know plenty of people who I respect who love it but it’s totally lost on me.

    106. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

      @108

      I’d have a tough time discussing Beatles music with people that weren’t even alive at the time they exploded onto the scene and pretty much changed everything. :-)

    107. Donnie Walsh

      Hmm, who equates to being the supremely talented guitarist that the Beatles brought in for a moment to take something to an extra level but who ultimately was too talented to stay in a superband because he needed to do his own thing? I give up.

      Clapton spent his life chasing Superbands. The Yardbirds, then Cream, then Blind Faith. Then he came to America with the purpose of joining The Band and when they turned him down, he joined Duane Allman and formed Derek and the Dominoes.

      Durant is currently in his Cream phase.

    108. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If Durant really wants the Knicks I think all of TH2, Knox, our 2020 1RP unprotected, and Mitchell Robinson would have to be on the table for a 3rd star to fit in with Ntilikina, Durant, our 2019 lottery pick, Porzingis, and Dotson. A look around the league at some potentially attainable star players:

      Damian Lillard/CJ McCollum. Portland looks good now but I expect them to lose in the first round of the playoffs again as they’re not a better team than NOP, GSW, Denver, or Houston.

      John Wall/Bradley Beal. I’m not too excited about either guy but there’s no way they keep that group together after this season, and as a potential 2nd/3rd wheel, either guy may be useful.

      Anthony Davis. I highly doubt if he’s available that we’d get him, but it’s possible he demands a trade. KD, AD, and KP would be unfair.

      Kyle Lowry. If Kawhi ends up leaving Toronto high and dry for the Clippers, I could see Masai Ujiri hitting the reset button.

      There are some other guys, and most of these would likely be long shot trades, but it may make some short term sense to move a package of our youth to contend if we do sign Durant. Lowry, Ntilikina, Durant, Zion, and Porzingis would take a lot of luck but does it really sound so crazy?

    109. Hubert

      Good piece, Strato.

      Take even the slightest glance in Ntilikina’s direction, though, and his best attribute — aside from his 6-foot-5 height or 7-foot-plus wingspan — quickly becomes evident. He has exceptional foot speed and can recover almost instantly even when he gets screened or is beaten with an initial first step. Considering how integral the screen-and-roll game has become in recent years, the ability of teams to neutralize that play call with a solid defender is monumentally important. And in looking at both film and metrics, Ntilikina is not merely good at that skill — he’s great at it.

      His 0.65 points surrendered per possession while guarding the pick-and-roll ball-handlers last season ranked best in the NBA among those who defended at least 200 such plays, according to Synergy Sports Technology.2 That’s a laughably low figure considering that he was the NBA’s second-youngest player.

    110. d-mar

      George Harrison was a competent musician who had the luck of a lifetime hooking up with Paul and John, who were technically gifted and extremely driven. Harrison’s guitar work wasn’t even great for his era! Compare him to someone truly talented, like Hendrix, and it’s laughable. His songwriting is generally OK at best, with ATMP as a very respectable peak – but one heavily influenced by working next to genius songwriters in Lennon and McCartney.

      Jeez…

      Something

      Here Comes the Sun

      While My Guitar Gently Weeps

      If I Needed Someone

      What Is Life?

      My Sweet Lord

      I don’t think he wrote those through Lennon/McCartney “osmosis”. Not taking anything away from those two, but George was a genius in his own right and calling him the “5th best Beatle” is a joke.

    111. swiftandabundant

      I never said “The Bends” is better than “OK Computer” just that I personally liked it more. OK Computer is a masterpiece, no doubt. But for me I like that The Bends is more of a straight forward rock album. At the time I listened to OK COmputer non stop for about 3 years straight but years later, its The Bends that I listen to still and it never gets tired for me.

    112. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Love the Mutantes. But yes, OK is more an album I admire than listen to, which is the reverse for Bends, except for one song I don’t remember because I deleted the track from my iPod.

      Why stake a claim with “Jet?” Which is, yes, a song about a dog! I mean, as songs about dogs go, it has to be in the top 10, but come on!

      On the other hand, My Sweet Lord is a ripoff (unconscious, I believe) of He’s So Fine, so I can’t give it any props.

      “Durant is currently in his Cream phase.” — Actually, that seems right.

    113. Count de Pennies

      @113
      Thanks for the heads up on Mutantes. Knowing that you are a big Gil fan gives your recommendation more weight with me. If the Mutantes sound is similar to what Gil was doing around that same time, I’m all ears. I’m gonna try and scare up those albums you mentioned.

    114. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Not taking anything away from those two, but George was a genius in his own right and calling him the “5th best Beatle” is a joke.

      I’m half-joking, but only half. I don’t think any of the songs you list are all that great. I can’t stand “Gently Weeps,” so maybe that’s personal, but the other songs are either simple but lovely (“Here Comes the Sun”) or rip-offs (“My Sweet Lord”) or just not that good (“If I Needed Someone”…really??)

      I honestly and truly believe George Martin was more integral to the Beatles’s success. And I kind of think Ringo was a better musician, more fluid and creative and inventive on his instrument. Little that Ringo did on the drums sounds dated; much of what Harrison did on the guitar does.

      Again, only half serious about it, but if you think he’s on the level of the composers and singers of songs that literally changed an entire category of music, you’re on crack. “A Day in the Life” against “What is Life?” – please.

    115. DRed

      Imagine if Melo was still on the Knicks? That would be worse than having to listen to Radiohead or the Beatles

    116. Bruno Almeida

      @123

      I would say Mutantes is more rock / psychedelic while Gil was always heavily influenced too by traditional Brazilian music, like samba and the northeastern rhythms, but there are clear similarities throughout most of those brilliant artists.

      Rama, I was kinda joking, I understand your point hahaha. I find myself listening to Kid A more than OK Computer sometimes for example, but the difference I feel with OK Computer is that it always brings me back sometime to it, I always end up gravitating back to that album.

    117. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Imagine if Melo was still on the Knicks? That would be worse than having to listen to Radiohead or the Beatles

      Hahahahahahahahaha

      Seriously though, Melo is still on his Knicks contract. That is fucking insane. He’s sooooooooo bad. Even r/rockets is turning on him. A few idiots in there still saying, “Small sample size,” even though that small sample is the last 5,000 minutes or so.

    118. JK47

      Worthwhile Beatles solo albums:

      Paul:
      McCartney (1970) – Slight but charming, a precursor to the genre that would later become known as “bedroom pop.” Some filler on here for sure but some nice tunes too

      RAM (1971) – Often underrated. Strong collection of songs with quirky arrangements. Paul smoked a lot of weed around this time. Really good album.

      Band On The Run (1973) – Tails off a little bit on side two, but side one is worth the price of entry alone.

      McCartney II (1980) – Another album of Paul noodling around in his home studio, in a phase in which he was obviously quite influenced by Kraftwerk. Weird and good.

      John

      Plastic Ono Band (1970) – Worthy of all the hype, this is John in his primal scream phase, tearing down his own myth, wailing into a chasm. Essential.

      Imagine (1971) – The title song is played out at this point, but the album is solid and was the last time he gave a shit about music until his comeback in 1980.

      Double Fantasy (1980) – The too-slick finished versions of these songs were not as good as the demos, but John was inspired and could still write. Just Like Starting Over, Watching The Wheels, Woman, Beautiful Boy, I’m Losing You… that’s half of a really good album right there. Ignore the Yoko songs.

      George

      All Things Must Pass (1970) – In which George lets out his pent-up frustrations and outdoes the other songwriting Beatles. Just about everything works except for the “Apple Jam” disc which can be safely ignored.

      That’s pretty much it. For the most part all other Beatles solo albums are kind of ass.

    119. danvt

      Paul was probably the best technician in the band. John a visionary. George dreamed up some lovely solos, melodies and words. All the late Beatles stuff is great and all great music lives on. Why pick it apart and race it against each other? Who’s the best musician in the band? What’s the better album? Well, that’s what happens when you talk music in this forum ;-) Not that I’m complaining! Far from it.

      But the original point related to LEAVING GOLDEN STATE! Holy shit! Why would anyone not want to play with guys that great and that unselfish? I mean, it’s comparable to the Beatles. Maybe one of the few things that ever will be. Yeah, Kevin ‘ll come to the Knicks…

    120. Grocer

      Imagine if Melo was still on the Knicks? That would be worse than having to listen to Radiohead or the Beatles.

      Eh, I could always ignore Melo and the Knicks. Being forced to listen to the Beatles and Radiohead would be a lot like that line from Elvis Costello’s “This Is Hell”:

      “My Favorite Things” are playing
      Again and again
      But it`s by Julie Andrews
      And not by John Coltrane

      The interesting and new trends in music (of various vintages) getting muzaked by a bunch of self-important jackasses.

      Those bands are fine. Having to listen to them over and over is one of the forms of torture the CIA used at Guantanamo.

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