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Thursday, September 20, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.07.11)

  • [SNY Knicks] SEE IT: Knicks’ Kevin Knox scores 29 in Summer League game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:56:23 PM)

    Knicks rookie Kevin Knox continued his strong Summer League campaign on Tuesday with a game-high 29-point effort in the Knicks’ loss to the Lakers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks fall to Lakers, 109-92, despite Kevin Knox’s big game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:24:56 PM)

    The Knicks overcame a 25-point deficit in the second half thanks to a 28-3 run in the third quarter, but the Lakers pulled away in the final quarter and ran away with a 109-92 Summer League win on Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] In defense of Carmelo Anthony
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:15:27 PM)

    The amount of vitriol and hate going around for Carmelo Anthony this offseason is ridiculous.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ Kevin Knox and Mitchell Robinson opening eyes in Summer League
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 1:15:31 PM)

    The Knicks are 1-1 heading into the last game of Summer League before the knockout tournament.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ Kevin Knox says ESPN’s Doris Burke loves his game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:25:00 PM)

    Rookie F Kevin Knox is starting to win the hearts of Knicks fans with his great Summer League play. But one Knicks fan showing him some love got him excited.

  • [NY Newsday] SEE IT: Knicks’ Kevin Knox scores 29 in Summer League game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:56:23 PM)

    Knicks rookie Kevin Knox continued his strong Summer League campaign on Tuesday with a game-high 29-point effort in the Knicks’ loss to the Lakers.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks fall to Lakers, 109-92, despite Kevin Knox’s big game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:24:56 PM)

    The Knicks overcame a 25-point deficit in the second half thanks to a 28-3 run in the third quarter, but the Lakers pulled away in the final quarter and ran away with a 109-92 Summer League win on Tuesday night.

  • [NY Newsday] In defense of Carmelo Anthony
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:15:27 PM)

    The amount of vitriol and hate going around for Carmelo Anthony this offseason is ridiculous.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kevin Knox and Mitchell Robinson opening eyes in Summer League
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 1:15:31 PM)

    The Knicks are 1-1 heading into the last game of Summer League before the knockout tournament.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kevin Knox says ESPN’s Doris Burke loves his game
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:25:00 PM)

    Rookie F Kevin Knox is starting to win the hearts of Knicks fans with his great Summer League play. But one Knicks fan showing him some love got him excited.

  • [NYPost] Mario Hezonja: Knicks fans love helped bring me to New York
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:22:04 AM)

    LAS VEGAS — Mario Hezonja wore his Knicks jersey in Croatia all the time after getting it at age 14. The 6-foot-8 forward heard from Knicks fans on social media once he started to turn around his 2017-18 season in late December. And Hezonja knew he had an ally in former Magic executive Scott Perry,…

  • [NYPost] The hedge bet behind the Knicks’ signing of Mario Hezonja
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:17:59 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — Appropriately, in this gambling mecca, new Knicks signee Mario Hezonja was introduced as a hedge bet Tuesday at a press conference at UNLV. It’s a hedge against striking out in 2019 free agency. Knicks president Steve Mills and general manager Scott Perry said they hope Hezonja becomes part of the long-term future…

  • [NYPost] Kevin Knox excels again after Knicks’ GM lowers expectations
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:12:28 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — Knicks general manager Scott Perry tried to downplay the success of his team’s two draft picks, lottery man Kevin Knox and center Mitchell Robinson, before Tuesday’s showdown against the Lakers. “I think it’s way too early to make an assessment after two summer-league games,’’ Perry said. “You have to measure it. Excitement…

  • [NYPost] The Lakers and Knicks are officially on different paths
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:34:20 AM)

    LAS VEGAS — LeBron James officially signed his Lakers contract Monday night after coming back from a vacation in Italy, and the storied franchise was finally ready to address the signing. Knicks coach David Fizdale, who is close to James from their Miami Heat days, blurted “Hallelujah” last week here when asked for his reaction to…

  • [NYTimes] Frank Ramsey, First Among ‘Sixth Men’ in the N.B.A., Dies at 86
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:21:59 PM)

    Playing with the Boston Celtics, Ramsey pioneered a versatile role in pro basketball while with seven championship teams, earning him a place in the sport’s Hall of Fame.

  • [NYDN] American man, 26, dies after going to Ultra music festival in Croatia
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 2:45:00 AM)

    An American man has died after attending the electronic music festival Ultra in Croatia.

    The unidentified 26-year-old man was in the city of Split last weekend for the gathering before he was hospitalized on Saturday, according to local media.

    Police said that he died on Sunday, though no exact…

  • [NYDN] A fresh coat of paint: Mayor de Blasio commits, late, to NYCHA-wide lead intervention
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:05:00 AM)

    As fast as the Daily News and then federal prosecutors peeled away layers of neglect and misconduct and lies about lead paint and poisoned children in the Housing Authority developments, Mayor de Blasio slathered on his own whitewash, hitting a low point with a preposterous statement late last…

  • [NYDN] EXCLUSIVE: New York lawmaker earns extra money working for a political party in Bermuda
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:00:00 AM)

    Bermuda is more than just a vacation spot for Bronx Assemblyman Michael Blake – it’s a source of income.

    Blake, who’s considered a rising star in Democratic Party circles, has a side job working as a “consultant” for the One Bermuda Alliance, an opposition political party in the island territory,…

  • [NYDN] Trump blasts Germany-Russia pipeline right after arriving at NATO
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:55:00 AM)

    BRUSSELS — President Trump’s criticism of NATO allies was in full flow soon after he arrived in Brussels, as he blasted Germany’s desire for a gas pipeline from Russia.

    The President had criticized Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government in the run-up to the two-day summit, and hopes of a conciliatory…

  • [NYDN] Readers sound off on the Statue of Liberty protest, tariffs and fur farms
    (Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:00:00 AM)

    Selfish in the name of ‘Liberty’

    Brooklyn: I understand Therese Patricia Okoumou’s right to protest (“Higher calling,” July 6). But what about all the families that were at the Statue of Liberty for a nice summer day trip, who lost all that time and money? I believe Oukoumou should be responsible…

  • [NYDN] Montana man, who left ‘miracle’ baby in forest, breaks down at arraignment claiming he left infant behind because it was ‘very heavy’
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:25:00 PM)

    A man accused of abandoning a 5-month-old baby in the woods of western Montana broke down when he heard the allegations against him in court before giving a disturbing reason for his actions.

    Francis Crowley appeared by videoconference from jail in his Missoula County Justice Court hearing on charges…

  • [NYDN] Border Protection says Mayor de Blasio crossed border illegally during Texas visit
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:55:00 PM)

    WASHINGTON — New York City Mayor de Blasio and his security detail violated both Mexican and U.S. immigration laws by crossing the border on foot during a visit near El Paso, Texas, U.S. Customs and Border Protection alleges in a letter obtained by The Associated Press.

    The mayor’s office flatly…

  • [NYDN] Radiohead offers sweet release at mesmerizing Madison Square Garden show
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:30:00 PM)

    Three things in life are certain: death, taxes and Radiohead.

    The English juggernauts kicked off their NYC run Tuesday night with a sure-footed, diverse set demonstrating why they’re one of the last remaining rock bands — and art rock band, at that — who can sell out Madison Square Garden four…

  • [NYDN] Ackert: Drew Gagnon’s journey to big leagues is a feel-good story that reveals harsh reality of Mets’ barren farm system
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:20:00 PM)

    Drew Gagnon was living the dream Tuesday night.

    After eight seasons in the minors, the 28-year-old one-time prospect was making his major league debut for the Mets. The third-round pick for the Brewers in the 2011 draft had been planning a trip to the Grand Canyon this week during the Triple-A…

  • [NYDN] SEE IT: Astros win in walk-off fashion in one of the weirdest ways possible
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:10:00 PM)

    Houston, we have lift off….to the top of the rankings for weirdest plays in MLB history.

    It wasn’t a grand slam or even a home run, but the Astros delivered one of the most memorable walk-off wins in recent memory Tuesday night.

    Infielder Alex Bregman came up to the plate with the scored tied 5-5…

  • [NYDN] Gunman wearing ‘angry clown mask’ robs Waffle House, shoots customer
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:05:00 PM)

    ATLANTA — Police say a man described as wearing an “angry clown mask” shot a customer at a Waffle House in Atlanta.

    News outlets report the customer was taken to a hospital in stable condition after being shot in the neck Tuesday.

    Police say a man was seen pacing in the parking lot. That man then…

  • [NYDN] Harper: Yankees may be tempted to get Manny Machado over a starter, but plenty of teams have better odds of landing him
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:00:00 PM)

    The relentless Red Sox are forcing Brian Cashman to reassess his options as the trading deadline nears, which is why Manny Machado just might be a more attractive option than a starting pitcher.

    At least that’s the feeling I get from talking to various baseball people about the Yankees’ ongoing…

  • [NYDN] Billy Knight, former UCLA basketball player, posts chilling goodbye video before apparent suicide — ‘I will take my chances… I will be in heaven or hell’
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:55:00 PM)

    Former UCLA basketball player Billy Knight has died in Phoenix, authorities have confirmed.

    The Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s Office hasn’t released a cause of death, but a chilling video posted by the former college hoops player the night before his body was discovered hints at a possible…

  • [NYDN] Warriors sign Steph Curry’s future brother-in-law
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:35:00 PM)

    Steph Curry already shares the court with one splash brother.

    Soon, he’ll team up with a brother-in-law.

    The Warriors on Tuesday signed guard Damion Lee, the fiance of Curry’s younger sister Sydel, according to ESPN.

    Lee, a Louisville alum who averaged 10.7 points in 15 games with the Hawks last…

  • [NYDN] Yankees not looking to trade away top prospects for Manny Machado
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:25:00 PM)

    BALTIMORE — Brian Cashman is touching all his bases while also trying to pull off his second steal of the season: adding not only Giancarlo Stanton but also Manny Machado without having to surrender anything of significant value.

    Cashman isn’t inclined to give up any top prospects for a two-plus-month…

  • [NYDN] FBI agent charged in shooting while dancing gets gun back
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:20:00 PM)

    DENVER — An FBI agent accused of accidentally dropping and firing his gun while dancing at a Denver nightspot, hitting a bystander in the leg, can carry his work weapon again as he considers a possible plea deal.

    A judge allowed the change to Chase Bishop’s conditions for release from jail during…

  • [NYDN] Mazzeo: If Yankees want to avoid a do-or-die wild card game, they must stop losing to awful teams like the Orioles
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:05:00 PM)

    BALTIMORE – The Yankees are playing down to their competition.

    The Red Sox aren’t.

    And if all these losses to the lowly Orioles end up costing New York the AL East division title, the team will only have itself to blame.

    For the second straight day, the Bombers blew a two-run lead, played sloppy…

  • [NYDN] Delaware man fatally shot wife, three kids in murder-suicide
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:00:00 PM)

    PRICES CORNER, Del. — A couple and three young children were found fatally shot at their Delaware home in what police described Tuesday as a murder-suicide.

    Delaware State Police identified the couple in a news release as Matthew Edwards, 42, and his wife, Julie Edwards, 41. Police did not release…

  • [NYDN] EXCLUSIVE: Relative who testified against Trump-pardoned ranchers blames family, Oregon refuge standoff for rough times
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:55:00 PM)

    President Trump may have pardoned them, but their family won’t.

    Dusty Hammond — the grandson and nephew of Oregon ranchers Dwight and Steven Hammond, whose arson conviction was set aside Tuesday by the President — says he still holds a grudge against his kinfolk though he helped put them behind…

  • [NYDN] Amed Rosario lone bright spot in another dismal loss, gives Mets glimpse of what he could become
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:45:00 PM)

    This was just one positive game in what has otherwise been an utterly and unavoidably disappointing season for Amed Rosario.

    But on Tuesday night in Flushing, the 22-year-old shortstop offered Mets fans a glimpse into what he could become — a franchise cornerstone, a two-way difference-maker, a…

  • [NYDN] LeSean McCoy’s girlfriend says robber beat her while demanding jewelry in their Atlanta home
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:35:00 PM)

    The estranged live-in girlfriend of Buffalo Bills star LeSean McCoy says a home invader beat her bloody Tuesday as he specifically sought jewelry McCoy gave her and demanded back amid an eviction battle.

    The assailant was able to enter the suburban Atlanta house owned by McCoy without any sign…

  • [NYDN] Carolina Panthers can’t get rid of statue of disgraced former owner Jerry Richardson because of clause in sale
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:35:00 PM)

    The Carolina Panthers can’t completely get rid of disgraced former owner Jerry Richardson.

    New Panthers owner David Tepper said the team would not remove the statue of previous owner Richardson from the front of Bank of America Stadium, evidently because of a clause in the franchise’s $2.275 billion…

  • [NYDN] Mets shut down Jay Bruce for 10 days of rest, Noah Syndergaard to start Friday vs. Nationals
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:25:00 PM)

    After attempting to resume baseball activities with an eye on returning to the Mets soon, Jay Bruce received an injection in his back and has been shut down until after the All-Star break, the outfielder tells the Daily News.

    The 31-year-old felt soreness in his right hip again – the same issue…

  • [NYDN] Sarah Palin claims ‘piece of s–t’ Sacha Baron Cohen posed as a disabled U.S. veteran and tricked her into an interview for his new comedy show
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:05:00 PM)

    Sarah Palin claims she was duped into participating in Sacha Baron Cohen’s Showtime series.

    The former vice presidential candidate penned a lengthy post on Facebook in which she said she was tricked into an interview for “Who Is America?”

    “This ‘legit opportunity’ to honor American Vets and contribute…

  • [NYDN] Plane with 11 onboard crashes in Alaska, everyone survives
    (Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:00:00 PM)

    JUNEAU, Alaska — All 11 people aboard a plane that crashed Tuesday have been rescued in mountainous terrain on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska, officials said.

    A Coast Guard helicopter located the crash site and hoisted the pilot and passengers to safety, U.S. Coast Guard Petty Officer Charly…

  • 162 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.07.11)

    1. Z-man

      Yes, that’s a great way to put it. It’s awesome to have a prospect that is looking to demolish the rim whenever a seam presents itself inside the 3-point line. He gets horizontal on his approaches kinda like Dwight Howard’s superman dunk.

      What has to be shocking to his draft skeptics are a) his rebounding and b) his motor. You can now see how he could dominate a physical specimen like Miles Bridges in a workout to the point of making it a no-brainer for Perry and Mills. He’s got a lot of work to do, but the upside is definitely fun (*)!

    2. Frank

      With all the same “it’s just summer league” caveats, these were the story lines going into / around the draft–

      – Knicks were going to pass on Trae Young even if he fell to them (per Fizdale)
      – Knicks really loved Wendell Carter (Begley and others) and Kevin Knox (everyone) out of the guys that might potentially fall to them, and were also high on Mikal Bridges also (Berman)
      – Knicks loved Mitchell Robinson enough to consider trading up for him (Berman I think?)

      The returns on these storylines look pretty good so far*.
      – Trae is looking mighty worrisome if I’m a Hawks fan
      – Carter looks freaking amazing – 21 points, 9.5 rebounds, 4.8 blocks per 36. That’s good right?
      – Knox doesn’t even remotely resemble the player he was at Kentucky (in a good way), which is exactly what Knicks sources were saying in the predraft process
      – MitchRob looks super super raw but also super super talented (I’m still predicting the 2020-21 season as the year he actually becomes useful)

      It’s crazy that Knox is only 18 years old. He still looks like a baby deer out there with his gangly limbs. His feet look like they’re way too big for his body, like a golden retriever puppy. Kinda feels like he’ll be 6’10” by next year.

    3. ptmilo

      Knox is a pretty unique player. He’s almost always relaxed and in control. Watching him next to Troy Williams is like a before and after ad for Red Bull. He doesn’t have burst or extremely tight handle yet when he goes left he usually manages to use his length and a sharp angle to get a step, even when his guy is playing him to go left. Of course, it’s pretty awkward that he can only go left and finish right at this point. Seems pretty clear that this would prevent him from be an efficient scorer as is, but he’s so young that as-is might not mean much. In the meantime a lot will just turn on whether he’s a pretty good shooter or a really good shooter.

      On the other hand, I’ve read some comments here and there that his defense has been a positive surprise. I can’t understand what you guys are watching. It reminds me of early last season when there was some momentum behind the “Kanter has become a decent defender” movement. I think his motor is okay but his defense has been somewhere between bad and really bad. His length and effort are great on close outs, but when the ball and men are moving he starts to wander around aimlessly like a good Amar’e impression.

    4. ptmilo

      Serious question: who in this draft would you trade Knox for right now?

      Meaning, including the guys who went ahead of him? I would trade him for most of those guys right now, especially Doncic, Ayton, WCJ, JJJ and Young.

    5. Z-man

      Carter Jr. has looked amazing, seems like he lost some weight. I would definitely consider trading Knox for him, but it would be an agonizing decision.

    6. ptmilo

      If WCJ was on the Knicks I’d be crowing about how all the people who said he can’t play with KP were obviously wrong as he’s been the best PNR switch defender in summer league. Then I’d probably read that last sentence carefully and pump the brakes. But still.

    7. Frank

      I sure as heck would not be trading Knox for Trae Young at this point.

      If Knox had shown this kind of game at Kentucky, I feel pretty sure that he would’ve been a top 5-6 pick, if only because of positional scarcity. He basically looks like what people were expecting out of Michael Porter minus the back issues. Underdeveloped but high-potential frame, somewhat turnover prone but showing ballhandling potential, unclear about defensive prowess, but high ceiling especially as a 6’9″+ big wing/4 prospect. And Porter was being considered as high as #2 and #4 according to reports. And Knox doesn’t have the intangibles issues that Porter reportedly has/had.

    8. Ntilakilla

      Man, we got cooked on PnR defense without Frank yesterday. Trier had a nice box score game but he was a defensive sieve out there with Mitchell Robinson, who is so raw in terms of his defensive technique.

      But boy does Knox’s jumper look wet. There were fucking rainbows coming off his fingertips in the 3rd. Dude has shown some very impressive skills out there as an 18 year fresh from college facing up against guys who are up to five years older than him. They even had to put Josh Hart on him after he got cooking in the second half.

    9. Ntilakilla

      I think his motor is okay but his defense has been somewhere between bad and really bad. His length and effort are great on close outs, but when the ball and men are moving he starts to wander around aimlessly like a good Amar’e impression.

      I noticed this in the first two games. I haven’t quite seen the defensive upside some have touted. He looks lost out there on defense. Doesn’t mean he can’t improve, but I don’t think his defense has been all that great from what I can gather.

    10. lavor postell

      Knox’s defense hasn’t been good, but it’s not for a lack of effort, it’s mostly technique and awareness/IQ. I would bet on those things improving over time even if he never quite manages to be more than average-ish.

      Offensively alot of it is still raw, but the elements of a 3 level scorer are there and I really like that he’s not much of an ISO heavy, ball pounding type of player. Most of the time he’s making quick decisions in choosing to attack the rim, shoot or keep the ball swinging.

      There’s alot to feel good about working with moving forward.

    11. djphan

      i would pump the brakes a bit on knox… the 2p efficiency and the 3pr is a bit worrisome…

      the volume is a standout and that along with his rebounding is the part that signals he might not be a total bust…..

      but thats all you can really gather at this point…. i have a feeling his 3pr will continue but thats not really a good sign….

    12. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I’d comfortably trade Knox for SGA, who has been great in summer league. I’d trade him for WCJ, JJJr., or Doncic without blinking.

    13. GianaDani

      Guys its not even preseason, its summer league. Most of the players he went up against will be in G-league and China in November. Take a chill pill. Let Knox make all rookie 2nd team and I’ll be happy to say that I was wrong about him. Till then, he’s just a young kid wearing orange and blue.

    14. sugarslim5

      I think it’s like this:
      1. Trier
      2. Knox
      3. Robinson

      Trier is the best all around when it comes to skill and experience. Knox is good but inconsistent, he’s a nice second option or less. Robinson needs work which is understandable.

      Most people who criticize players like Dotson fail to understand that the team is not built to allow all players to excel equally. These guys do similar things in different ways. There’s a reason Trier was better with Ntilikina out. Like melo in okc, there’s a lot of volume scorers here.

    15. chrisk06811

      Trae is looking mighty worrisome if I’m a Hawks fan

      I think the only Hawks fans left went to Bucknell with Mike Muscala

    16. Zanzibar

      Knox observations:
      (1) Very impressed by his summer league interviews. Kid is smart, articulate and self-aware. He and Kornet are the highest IQ guys on the team. It won’t be brains that holds him back.
      (2) His burst is not likely to improve but he will get stronger. That profile suggests his natural position will be the 3 not the 4. That will work out fine if KP/ Mitch are the 4/5.
      (3) Shooting of course is key because it will force defenders to play him close enabling him to get that needed first step against athletic NBA 3’s. He’s got a nice motion but remember Gallo was projected to be a lights out shooter and he’s a career 36.7% from 3.
      (4) His on ball defense has looked good to me. Once he got switched onto to Trae who tried but was unable to blow by him. His team defense may be a function of (A) they haven’t worked on schemes so people don’t know where they’re supposed to be (B) getting used to his teammates
      (5) If Knox looked like a bust, we’d be apoplectic over the fact that blatant tanker Chicago got WCJ. Knox’s promise plus Mitch takes much of the sting out of that. The sting of Mudiay instead of Melton remains (Melton lit it up in his last game)
      (6) 2019-20 starters: Kyrie/Frank/Knox/KP/Mitch Bench: Burke/THJ/Troy/Luke/Dot/2019 pick
      (7) Question if you’ve read this far: Would you rather have Zhaire and Miami pick or Knox?

    17. sugarslim5

      Gosh, I don’t remember Gallinari being described as a lights out shooter. So long ago.

    18. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Zhaire and Miami, no question. I like what Knox has shown but I’d rather have Zhaire and the Miami pick over anyone not named Luka Doncic or Wendell Carter Jr.

      That pick is unprotected in what will be a stacked prep to pro draft and no one knows how Miami will be in 2021!

    19. Z-man

      Strong play in summer league is not indicative of future success but it doesn’t hurt. What is especially nice about it is that now we go into the 3-month basketball dead zone with some legit cautious optimism rather than “holy shit, he totally stunk in summer league and maybe will be a total bust” mentality. Like last year, Frank didn’t play so we had nothing to really go on.

    20. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, Knox & Robinson are going to lead us to the promised land

      One thing is fairly certain, unless something changes dramatically the Knicks are going to be comically bad on defense this year. A few of the players at summer league are going to get significant minutes in the NBA but other than Frank they can’t stop anyone in SL. We also don’t have KP, let O’Quinn walk, may move Lee, and didn’t add a defender in free agency. We are basically substituting younger worse defenders for some of our better defenders to an already bad defense.

    21. Z-man

      @22 that’s fair. But is it fair to say that you wouldn’t trade Knox for Zhaire straight up?

    22. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @25

      I still go off projections over the SL small sample, so I’d probably trade for Zhaire straight up, but I’d be much less confident now than before, since Zhaire has looked bad in SL and Knox has at least shown that he can rebound and has a motor.

      Also I’d trade Knox for Troy Brown, who’s been quite good for the Wiz.

    23. lavor postell

      It’s not really important to me how bad the Knicks are to start the year on defense. I’m more interested to see if and how much they improve over the course of the year, Knox and Robinson particularly.

    24. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m somewhat pleasantly surprised with how Knox has looked so far and I’d still make any trade I would’ve made before summer league. He has generally looked like he belongs and that counts for something, but he’s barely addressed any of the substantive concerns people had about him.

      The rebounding has been better than I thought so I hope that lasts, but everything else has been pretty much exactly where it should’ve been projected. I definitely see some potential as a capable defender on switches and maybe even some rim protection in a pinch, but if that ever happens it feels very far away to me right now.

      If he can hit threes consistently, hold his own on the glass against 4s, and for the love of god stop taking that out of control floater every time he drives, he has a shot to return value relative to his draft slot.

    25. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, Knox & Robinson are going to lead us to the promised land

      I like what I’ve seen from Knox a lot more than the consensus. I think he has long term all star potential and will be a good compliment to Porzinigis as the 2nd option fairly quickly. He has a lot of areas that need improvement, but when you are drafting 18 years olds, that’s expected. When you get a player with this much talent and all star potential at #9, I think you’ve done quite well.

    26. swiftandabundant

      God Forbid anyone who hated the Knox pick give an inch and actually compliment him or show any inkling of optimism. This is America and in America you never have to be wrong about anything!

    27. Z-man

      Well, people are still high on Frank, even though he hasn’t shown anything beyond defensive potential thus far. You would think that at 6’6″ with a 7’0″ wingspan, he could figure out how to get to the rim for a slam once in a while. I am still waiting for even a hint of vertical or lateral explosiveness. Nada.

    28. Owen

      It is interesting to see how the Kevin Knox hype machine churn. Do we have any shooting numbers for him so far?

    29. 2FOR18, understands math

      @30, 31 and 32.

      Numerous people who were against drafting Knox, myself included, have stated on here that Knox has been more impressive re: his aggressiveness/motor and rebounding than we expected.

      But you guys have a narrative to pursue, so carry on.

    30. thenoblefacehumper

      It is interesting to see how the Kevin Knox hype machine churn. Do we have any shooting numbers for him so far?

      His raw FG% is .386, but his free throws (82%, 18-22) and 3PT shooting (38%, 8-21) have kept his TS% afloat-ish at .525.

      He’s gotten some calls that I don’t think will be there in the NBA and is still shooting 39% on 2PT field goals, which is the main reason I haven’t adjusted my projection much.

      Also by the eye test he looks like he’s a looooooong way away from being an even semi reliable finisher, if that ever happens. He doesn’t look bad when he puts it on the floor but he’s clueless around the basket.

    31. Clyde's suit

      Yeah, it’s pretty obvious that the folks on here who didn’t like the chose of Knox are holding onto their preconceived notions of him for dear life!!
      Taking into account the concerns about his game listed predraft, how can you not be optimistic having actually seen the kid play? The supposed low motor, non rebounding, non-aggressive, poor defender Knox never showed up. Sure he’s made mistakes on D, taken some awkward looking shots etc. I’ve watched pretty much all of the SL games and plenty of the guys taken ahead of him have done the same.
      Knox runs the floor really well, has better athleticism than advertised, gives honest effort on D, rebounds better than ANYONE gave him credit for and has a nice wet jumper.
      Not saying he’s a sure fire all-star or anything but he is clearly a talented player and if you went into the draft looking for a wing that fits the current style of play in the NBA and you had the 9th pick, Knox is a fine result.

      As for Trier, this kid certainly doesn’t lack confidence, but he is the worst type of player you can have running your offense in SL. He’s all offense and not much else. Really disappointed that the Knicks didn’t sign another decent pass first pg for the SL team.

    32. kevin5318

      Well, people are still high on Frank, even though he hasn’t shown anything beyond defensive potential thus far.

      I’d say he’s shown more than just potential on that end. And even if it is then it looks like All NBA first team potential.

    33. Z-man

      @34 I don’t think anyone is over the top positive about Knox, or negative for that matter. I agree that @30 was not called for, but what narrative am I pushing in @32?

    34. Hubert

      I’m pretty excited about Knox now after being lukewarm with his selection. I see all the things that are suboptimal but it’s hard to quibble about an 18 year old who clearly looks like he can start in the NBA. He deserves a few years to learn how to score efficiently, become a good team defender, etc. I think Frank nailed it when he said this looks like the player Porter was projected to be.

    35. thenoblefacehumper

      Yeah, it’s pretty obvious that the folks on here who didn’t like the chose of Knox are holding onto their preconceived notions of him for dear life!!
      Taking into account the concerns about his game listed predraft, how can you not be optimistic having actually seen the kid play?

      God the “wrong for 18 consecutive years” crowd sure is insufferable today.

      I, and many other Knox doubters, have literally said that our preconceived notion that he’s a bad rebounder has been allayed somewhat (though it might not be a bad idea to wait until he’s playing in the actual NBA to hang your hat on this).

      There are still tons of other concerns that haven’t been addressed, and that’s fine! Knox is very young and it’s the damn summer league. Just miss me with this “what are the Knox haters going to say now?!?!?!” nonsense or at least admit you’re only doing it because he’s scored 23 PPG.

    36. Frank

      Well, while we are jumping headfirst into small sample theater, here’s a good tweet from Tommy Beer:

      Kevin Knox is currently averaging 23.3 points and 7.3 rebounds per game in the Las Vegas Summer League.

      Only two other rookies this decade have appeared in at least three games and averaged over 22 ppg in summer league play:
      John Wall and Damian Lillard

      Re: whether Knox has been unexpected or not — would like to see his Synergy play types from Summer League vs. UK. Seems to me he has been on-ball way more with the Knicks. And re: his rebounding – he was considered a good rebounder in high school and AAU, and it wasnt until he got to UK that his rebounding sucked. He’s been pretty decent in summer league. We were all worried he was a scorer and nothing else, but he’s done an ok job initiating offense and rebounding the ball in addition to scoring, and he hasn’t been obviously bad on D. He also hasn’t really been a ballhog in spite of his shooting volume — his buckets seem to come in the flow as opposed to Trier who is a black hole.

    37. kevin5318

      Knox will probably be bad his rookie season but you can see why Perry/Mills were interested in him for reasons that didn’t show up in his box score.

    38. kevin5318

      Also he’s only 18 so him potentially growing to 6’10-11 is something to be excited about.

    39. Frank

      btw while we are all in a tizzy over Knox, Damyean Dotson has quietly been horrible. That is a bummer.

    40. 2FOR18, understands math

      Zman I guess I included you because you seemed to be going along with @30 but now I see you were just doing your Frank schtick :) carry on

    41. djphan

      not only that but his defensive numbers have improved…. his a/to is worse… and his 2p efficiency is tanking but he’s also increased his usage a ton…. efficiency isn’t such a huge deal at this point but if it continues then all the other good signs don’t really matter… he will be bad…

      there are signs to be optimistic…. and i’m pretty sure everyone is pretty unanimous in that regard…. but this is far from saying that anyone is wrong at this point before any real nba games have been played… and i’m sure if he cratered that ppl will be saying that it’s only summer league…

      that argument runs both ways….

    42. 2FOR18, understands math

      The Knicks are going to have to send Dotson back to the G League.
      I’d also prefer they just cut Mudiay and give his minutes to Trier. If we’re not playing any defense at least let’s have some fun on offense.

    43. 2FOR18, understands math

      Someone mentioned that in college, volume is more predictive of future NBA success than rates.
      If we apply this to SL then that’s a good sign for Knox. He seems to be able to get a shot off whenever he wants. The next test will be in games where actual defense are played

    44. GianaDani

      @ 49, Dotson has physical attributes but he really can’t play. Poor vision, decision making, limited skill set etc… won’t be in the league next year. It is what it is; won’t hold the pick against Mills/Perry though. I can see why they made it; maybe he had a good workout too, lol…

    45. d-mar

      Knox will probably be bad his rookie season but you can see why Perry/Mills were interested in him for reasons that didn’t show up in his box score.

      I think it’s very likely that Knox struggles a lot this season against real NBA defenses and will probably put up Wiggins numbers at best.

      All we can hope for is that he improves each year; at his age, we should have plenty of patience.

    46. ess-dog

      @44 thanks for your judicious comment. No one wants to hate these players, they’re just trying to get a realistic picture based on the info they have.

      Yes, you can see what the FO was thinking with the Knox pick now.

      I think where he’s a lesser player than Porter is with his finishing-around-the-rim skills, but those will improve. The 3 pt shot, rebounding, drives to the rim, and defensive energy are all attractive. He even seems sort of able to draw fouls and will get better there.

      I maintain that guys like WCJ and JJJ are better players, but Knox is the type of player we needed most and, if you don’t include Doncic, was likely the best small forward available.

      No idea how good he’ll be. Pretty sure he won’t be KD but I could live with a Derozan trajectory.

    47. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, Knox & Robinson are going to lead us to the promised land

      A few summer league games are not enough to throw the towel in on Dotson.

      I’ve been pretty optimistic on him, but I never saw him as much more than a 3 and D rotation player that was a plus rebounder for the G/SF position. I saw him as a potential starter that could replace Lee and add some defense and boards. I’m disappointed he hasn’t made any progress, but I think 3 games is way too short a time to throw it in.

    48. Nick C.

      Knox reconfirmsmy preconceived notion that Calipari is a much better recruiter than a coach, so much so that it would be insane to give him an NBA head coaching job.

    49. ethsurken

      Some more Knox shooting splits: 5/20 in the half court around the rim (5/16 on layups/dunks, 0/4 on floaters).

      One thing I’ve noticed about Knox’s defense: he doesn’t contest very well. He sticks his arms up, but seems like he’s leaning away, trying not to foul, instead of actually trying to interfere with or block the shot. That, plus the fact that he’s not a particularly engaged/active off-ball defender, makes it not surprising he averaged 0.3 blocks per 40 (10 blocks total) in college, even with his 7′ wingspan.

      I’ve been slightly impressed with the number of deflections he’s gotten. If he could use his arms more, like Frank does, be a little more aware/engaged, he could be a menace that way.

    50. ClashFan

      Summer League games are basically glorified pickup games. Raw talent is going to shine through more so than in the real season. So, caveat emptor on the hype and small sample sizes.

      However, I’ve seen enough to be happy now that Knox was picked. I had reservations about the guy, though I certainly didn’t hate the pick. I said a long time ago that we’d need to see better rebounding from him, and we have. And, maybe this is a sign that the FO really will be patient. Maybe.

      There’s reason for hope (if not outright optimism) with Frank, Knox, Robinson, and hopefully KP. Maybe Hezonja, Williams, Burke or someone else can work into the long term equation as a decent rotation player. Play the young guys, add another good lottery pick next summer, and let’s see where the team is at.

      Dotson’s been awful, but with Knox and Trier shooting at will, I’m not going to condemn him, yet. The hope on him for me has always been solid 3 and D rotation guy, at best.

    51. Z-man

      What I find most encouraging is the combination of a very young team full of upside and a coaching staff at least theoretically geared toward developing young players.

    52. Hubert

      Someone mentioned that in college, volume is more predictive of future NBA success than rates.

      That was something I found in an old 538 interview with Ed Weiland:

      https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-to-look-for-in-an-nba-draft-prospect/

      And you can see it with Knox. He’s all over the place offensively because he’s raw. But I can understand, watching him, why it might make more sense that an 18 year old who can score at high volume is a better prospect than a 21 year old who can score efficiently. It’s not like we’re talking about Andrea Bargnani learning how to be efficient after 5 years in the NBA.

    53. 2FOR18, understands math

      I think Knox is better than Wiggins right now. He’s already a better shooter and rebounder.

      – damning with faint praise maybe, but what exactly is Wiggins good at?

    54. 2FOR18, understands math

      Omg I just double checked Wiggins’ numbers and he’s even worse than I thought.

    55. nicos

      Some more Knox shooting splits: 5/20 in the half court around the rim (5/16 on layups/dunks, 0/4 on floaters).

      Worth noting that he’s drawn all of his fouls on drives in the half court (I think)- so 5/20 from the field but 16-22 from the line. Still bad but a lot more encouraging.

    56. Donnie Walsh

      it’s pretty obvious that the folks on here who didn’t like the chose of Knox are holding onto their preconceived notions of him for dear life!!

      I wonder if the folks at RaptorBlogger.net asked each other “serious question: who in this draft would you trade Dwight Fuyucks right now?” after he averaged 23 points per game in summer league?

    57. ethsurken

      Wiggins is good at getting to the rim and finishing, gets fouled a lot, and has decent OREB and block numbers for his position. Otherwise, he’s bad at everything. Surprisingly, he’s been a positive on offense according to the on/off metrics throughout his career.

    58. Frank

      Worth noting that he’s drawn all of his fouls on drives in the half court (I think)- so 5/20 from the field but 16-22 from the line. Still bad but a lot more encouraging.

      that’s why just looking at FG% is not that useful.
      Basically he’s had 31 shooting possessions and has scored something like 26 points. <1.0 point per true shot attempt but not as bad as 5/20 sounds.

    59. Hubert

      Here’s a paragraph from Zach Lowe that ultimately tells us absolutely nothing of value but is fun to think about anyway:

      P.S.: I get why folks mock the notion that Durant would consider the Knicks as long as James Dolan is slouching over the franchise, but you’re kidding yourselves if you don’t think New York will try. People who have spent years around Durant can’t say for sure what he wants from the game. It’s unclear if he knows. Some of those people predict, if you force them, that he will one day leave Golden State for a team that can be truly his.

      I have no idea. I do know that Rich Kleiman, Durant’s business manager, is from New York. Scott Perry, New York’s GM, was an executive with the Seattle SuperSonics when they drafted Durant and remains close with him.

      New York will obviously have company pitching Durant, if he hears pitches. (Golden State’s new arena doesn’t open until the 2019-20 season; who could blame Durant for wanting to play in it?) Those suitors will bring track records of basic competency the Dolan-era Knicks have rarely achieved.

      But New York will try.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24057463/zach-lowe-winners-losers-2018-nba-free-agency

    60. Ntilakilla

      Small sample size but whatever, I feel exuberant about Knox right now:

      Kevin Knox is currently averaging 23.3 points and 7.3 rebounds per game in the Las Vegas Summer League.Only two other rookies this decade have appeared in at least three games and averaged over 22 ppg in summer league play:John Wall and Damian Lillard#NewYorkKnox— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) July 11, 2018

    61. swiftandabundant

      I’m not asking the people who hated the Knox pick to eat crow and say they were wrong. I’m just tired of the wet blanketing of any positive sign for this kid. Objectively he has played well in summer league. He’s all ready addressed a big concern of his with good rebounding. Is he going to be an all star? Of course we can’t say that at all right now, but it feels like a lot of the “realists” on this blog love to throw a wet blanket on any sort of optimism with this team. And if a player doesn’t fit their statistical profile then they will never ever give that player credit where credit is due. I just don’t see how you couldn’t watch these 3 games and not be just A LITTLE excited about Knox.

    62. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, Knox & Robinson are going to lead us to the promised land

      P.S.: I get why folks mock the notion that Durant would consider the Knicks as long as James Dolan is slouching over the franchise,

      I don’t buy this anymore.

      It isn’t necessary to rehash all the negatives about Dolan, but on the plus side he’s very willing to spend money and he has probably been the most pro African American owner in the league. It really comes down to his incompetent meddling in the basketball decisions. I don’t think that was a factor with Phil until the tabloids starting calling for his head after the relationship with both Melo and KP deteriorated. Right now, it appears Fisdale, Perry and Mills are all popular with players and agents. There is no good reason for any free agent or potential trade player to avoid NY other than the team is so ridiculously young and bad you’d be coming in knowing that you were a couple of years away from making serious noise unless you came in with another star. No one that is already a star is going to give up several prime years to come to NY to watch KP, Frank, and Knox develop. Had we kept and added a productive player or two and then finished the season strongly after KP came back, then maybe. But now, I can’t see it. We legitimately may be the worst team in the NBA right now unless we get some serious upside surprises.

    63. 2FOR18, understands math

      @72 I can’t understand how you can read this blog, and this very thread, and say that. You are projecting big time with your “people want to push their narrative no matter what” narrative.

    64. Hubert

      I’m not asking the people who hated the Knox pick to eat crow and say they were wrong. I’m just tired of the wet blanketing of any positive sign for this kid.

      I’m not sure where you’re reading all this negativity. I’m reading a lot of tempered enthusiasm about Knox.

      By nature, this is a group that is fond of efficient scoring, though, and we haven’t seen it yet. If he scored 29 points on 9-12 shooting instead of 9-22, this blog would be having a collective orgasm. As it is, we’re just trending towards optimism.

    65. Hubert

      @74 I tend to agree. Dolan has really faded to the background. Phil was the face of the Knicks when he was here. Now it’s becoming Mills and Perry and Fizdale.

    66. Brian Cronin

      Here’s a paragraph from Zach Lowe that ultimately tells us absolutely nothing of value but is fun to think about anyway:

      It’s really staggering when you realize that, in the past 20 years, they’ve maintained max cap space once, when the fact of the matter is that just by virtue of being the New York Knicks, they’re always going to be a possibility for a star player to say, “Oh man, I’d love to win in New York.” Kyrie Irving is absolutely the type of player who would screw himself over in pursuit of being a star in New York. Who knows about Durant.

      And yet they’ve kept themselves capped out like morons for decades, except for the year that they decided that STAT was the answer. And hell, at least STAT was a legitimately very good player.

      It makes the THJ contract seem even more foolish, ya know? If ever there was a team that should not be futzing around on the margins of free agency, it’s the Knicks.

    67. Ntilakilla

      I recognize it is ridiculous to appeal to the metrics right now in making a case about Knox just three games in. Either you like what little you’ve seen of his game playing far older competition or you don’t. But to me, and many evaluators who’ve seen him play, the talent is just oozing out of his offensive game. There aren’t many 18 year old NBA players 6’9″ and over that can run the break, shoot a pretty 3 ball, shoot from mid range, can take man off dribble n drive, run the pick and roll, grab boards n initiate the break, and can 1 man fast break off the board. And those who can in the regular season are All-Star caliber players.

    68. Hubert

      Can someone tell me what his ts% in summer league was, at least?

      Assuming you mean Knox, it’s 52.5%

    69. Ntilakilla

      Can someone tell me what his ts% in summer league was, at least?

      A respectable .525%.

    70. ethsurken

      @78 I think I saw (maybe in yesterday’s thread) ~39/38/81 with a .525 TS%. Not bad given his usage/age/setting. I don’t think the FT drawing is particularly sustainable though, given (1) the amount of fouling in Summer League and (2) there’s no reason to foul someone who struggles to make a layup.

    71. 2FOR18, understands math

      Yeah, if by some miracle Trey is the real deal and we get lucky in the next lottery, this could be a very appealing team to join in 2019-2020 . I’m glad there’s no money this off-season.

      But it seems like it will be Kyrie next year.

    72. nicos

      On another topic: all of Robinson’s blocks last night were on jumpers including one amazing one on a three pointer. Look at the block around 25 seconds into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXG-FqCtPGo. If that doesn’t get you excited I don’t know what will. He may not be ready strength/conditioning-wise to be a big factor this year but down the road…

    73. Owen

      Thanks for the number. Just wanted to know what I am getting excited about.

      No thanks on Kyrie. He’s a good player but I don’t see signing him age 27 being the move that makes us relevant again.

    74. danvt

      (4) His on ball defense has looked good to me. Once he got switched onto to Trae who tried but was unable to blow by him.

      I saw that too. It looks like he’ll be ok when switched on to a guard on the perimeter. This is big in today’s NBA.

      As to the not so good, I agree with Z-Man that I have seen nothing to indicate that he can finish with his left hand. Saw a ton of bail out fouls on that side of the basket, which may not be there once the real play begins. Nice that he can make FT’s and 3’s…

      Overall, he looks more confident than I thought he’d be and better. I’m encouraged by the consensus here.

      I wish Ntilikina had Knox’s chutspah but I’m not giving up on him. Hoping for a Michael Ray Richardson-esque sophomore bounce back. I think he’s got some court vision and skills and will do well with a real coach. The more I look back on it, Hornacek was just horrible and all the young guys from last year deserve a mulligan.

    75. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, Knox & Robinson are going to lead us to the promised land

      @81

      Agree. That’s what the most enthusiastic supporters see.

      On one level you should be interested in the productivity of the player’s skill set (which is what most people here primarily focus on). On another level you should be creating a checklist of what he’s capable of doing at a promising level now. If you create a checklist, Knox can already do a lot of things at a promising level that many pros cannot do. What he has to do is increase the efficiency of some of those things to become a lot become more productive. Less talented players just stop doing what they can’t do and lower their usage.

      If he can improve a few things he’ll become a high usage above average efficiency scorer. That’s what people see and are getting enthusiastic about. Whether he does it is another matter, but at least he has the natural talent to check a lot of boxes.

    76. JK47

      I commented yesterday during the game that I felt kind of “meh” about Knox and then he promptly went on a shooting tear and ended up with very good numbers for the game. He did look quite good on that shooting tear, knocking down a variety of shots– pull-up three, spot-up corner three, 15-footer off screen, contested three with hand in face. It was pretty impressive.

      Overall you have to be enthused with his performance in summer league versus his scouting report. The “low motor” tag seems to be bunk, he played with a really high motor from start to finish. He rebounded just fine, although there may be some noise in there with the signal because of the ragged nature of summer league play. Seems like he should rebound okay for a SF, which is where he’ll probably mostly play. It’s hard to say what he’ll be like defensively based on these games, so that’s still a question mark to me.

      I’d say his floor seems higher after watching him play these games. I don’t think he’ll be a bust, I think at minimum he’ll be a rotation player in the NBA. He’s going to be a volume scorer, so at the end of the day it boils down to his efficiency. Hopefully he’ll be up at the .570+ TS% range, which would make him a very nice player, a Paul George/Danilo Gallinari/Prime Melo type scorer. That’s a good outcome for a #9 pick. A tick below that, and something like a .535 TS% and he’s more of a Rudy Gay type, and that’s not really a winning player. He’s probably not going to offer a ton of secondary skills, so it really is all about his efficiency.

    77. TheOakmanCometh

      Endowment effect — The bias of overvaluing something that we own, regardless of its objective market value

      I bet 25 fanbases are happy with their first round pick after watching them in 3 Summer League games.
      “Look how high he jumps!”
      “I don’t care that he shot 6-21. His form looked really good!”
      “He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

    78. danvt

      “He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

      It was Trae Young.

      Yes, of course, everyone is reading the tea leaves right now and trying to glean what they can off of a small sample size, but yours is the type of comment 2for18 was complaining about. You know, “There can be no cause for optimism cuz Knicks…” Everyone’s been pretty measured but fairly positive on Knox. No reason not to be. Yes, other fan bases like their rookies too. Some stupidly, others reasonably, I imagine. Hey, hope springs eternal. But you’re criticizing something that is not there…

    79. Bruno Almeida

      Well, it is too early to decide anything about Knox but I think people are just excited to see something. There’s something to be said about having no good expectations about a young player and then being pleasantly surprised. If we had drafted Doncic for example and he had those performances the fan base would probably be a lot more negative and nitpicking his issues than with Knox.

      So yeah, I’m happy, he has shown good stuff and that’s more than I expected, both because I didn’t like the pick at first and because he’s so damn young.

      I would say at least that he has shown there were legit reasons to be intrigued about him at the 9th, which is fair enough. Like I said, the Knicks can’t really afford to bust out on these drafts and I feel better about Knox’s floor after those performances, even though it’s obviously too early to know anything for sure.

    80. Ntilakilla

      @94

      Except it’s not just the fanbase. Jay Larranaga, part of the Celtics staff that scouted, drafted and developed Jayson Tatum, just said he thinks Knox is “what the future of the NBA is.” Then there are the insiders and analysts:

      Watched Kevin Knox light it up again 2day, this time in person. 2 things stuck out: he is incredibly smooth and his feel for the game is highly advanced (3rd-youngest player in class). Talk around arena among NBA folks was clear: Knox is freaky… #Knicks got an absolute stud— Jordan Schultz (@Schultz_Report) July 11, 2018

      Kevin Knox has looked terrific in summer league. Not bad for an 18-year-old who was drafted because of his long-term potential. The fact that he's doing this NOW is pretty amazing. It's going to be a lot of fun watching him develop.— Alex Kennedy (@AlexKennedyNBA) July 11, 2018

      Initial impression of Knicks rookie Kevin Knox: WHOA!!! This kid is athletic and smooth.— Tim MacMahon (@espn_macmahon) July 7, 2018

      I don’t see why Knicks fans should be asked to value their own rookie less than the experts do.

    81. Hubert

      Yeah, I guess we should shut down all conversation of Kevin Knox until he’s played 6,000 NBA minutes.

      Let’s get back to arguing about politics instead.

    82. chrisk06811

      Did you guys see KD got into it on instagram with a kid who questioned his ability to lead a team? he told the kid to go sweep his dorm room. I wonder if that’s going to happen to us here on Knickerblogger when he signs with us in 2 years

    83. slovene knick

      I`m on remote Croatian island. It’s new years eve here. People going nuts. I’m full of envy:))

    84. Frank

      Meanwhile Zach Lowe, Rachel Nichols, and Howard back are on minute 15 in their podcast talking about Kevin Durant going to the Knicks and how perfect it would be

    85. Donnie Walsh

      Bye, Croatia

      I see you’re ability to be wrong isn’t limited to basketball :)

    86. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Endowment effect — The bias of overvaluing something that we own, regardless of its objective market value

      I bet 25 fanbases are happy with their first round pick after watching them in 3 Summer League games.
      “Look how high he jumps!”
      “I don’t care that he shot 6-21. His form looked really good!”
      “He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

      Yup.

    87. ethsurken

      @97 The comments here mostly agree with those sentiments—he’s athletic, smooth, and has generally impressed.

      I would push back on the “advanced feel” part—in what way has he demonstrated advanced feel? Like two passes he made out of a PnR? What about all of his awful flailing layups? What about his 1:2 AST:TO ratio?

      I would also push back on the “fact that he’s doing this NOW is pretty amazing”—the signs are good, and the highlights are impressive, but his impact on winning has hardly been “amazing” (unless you’re just looking at PPG). I think it’s a bad way of framing it.

      (And Tim MacMahon is a reporter, not an evaluator/analyst—not an expert in prospect or player evaluation by any means. His opinion is meaningless to me.)

    88. heavencent35

      Are we still a hater of Kevin Knox?
      Just a summer League games but with his age, performance, and we picked him 9,isnt it still a good value as of Now? Maybe it is true that it is difficult to please NY fans

    89. DRed

      The idea that Knox is a bad rebounder and not an efficient offensive player is not a preconcieved idea. It’s based on what he did in college.

    90. ethsurken

      For an example of the endowment effect, in 27 MPG, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is averaging 20/5/3/2/1 on a 45 FG%. And he’s putting up 15/4/6 on 7/13 shooting in 23 minutes so far today. I think he’s been clearly better than Knox in Summer League (and clearly better than Knox on the same team last year). Would we not be losing our minds if he were on the Knicks? He’s ~1 year older than Knox, but still.

    91. Donnie Walsh

      “He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

      Am I wrong, or is Edward Q. G-Leaguer a pretty good prospect? PAWS really likes him, and he’s never been in a system that emphasizes his strengths.

    92. Ntilakilla

      but his impact on winning has hardly been “amazing” (unless you’re just looking at PPG). I think it’s a bad way of framing it.

      This is ironic because I find judging Knox’s performance on basis of his impact in winning Summer League games to be the worst way of framing/evaluating rookie player performance. These games aren’t for that and I am rather certain not a one of the talent evaluators there are judging any of the younger prospects there on this basis.

    93. Ntilakilla

      @110

      I am a very big fan. He looks like the a more advanced type of player I hope Frank can become.

    94. ethsurken

      This is ironic because I find judging Knox’s performance on basis of his impact in winning Summer League games to be the worst way of framing/evaluating rookie player performance.

      I agree. Given that, what does this mean?

      The fact that he’s doing this NOW is pretty amazing.

      Doing what? It must mean “playing this well,” right? I don’t know how else to interpret it. “The fact that he’s showing flashes of skills NOW is pretty amazing” wouldn’t make much sense. And I’m saying I don’t think he really has played that well in terms of actual impact.

    95. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has looked very, very impressive, might be the rookie that impressed me the most out of the ones I got to watch.

    96. Ntilakilla

      I agree. Given that, what does this mean?

      What does what mean? I am not sure I understand your confusion here.

      “The fact that he’s showing flashes of skills NOW is pretty amazing” wouldn’t make much sense.

      Why not?

    97. danvt

      The endowment effect argument is total BS. Since when does this board ever have some fan boy consensus? Give me a break. We see some good that we didn’t expect, not the next Kawhi Leonard. We also point to flaws.

    98. Hubert

      Yeah thought England had that. Stunning collapse. Should have been up 3 goals in 1st half.

    99. ethsurken

      What does what mean? I am not sure I understand your confusion here.

      I thought I explained it quite clearly. I’m referring to this statement, from one of the tweets you posted, which I directly quoted:

      The fact that he’s doing this NOW is pretty amazing.

      What does “this” mean? Scoring 20+ PPG?

      Why not?

      It’s amazing that the 9th overall pick has shown flashes of skills? I guess we have different definitions of amazing…

    100. Grocer

      It was Trae Young.

      To be fair, Trae Young hasn’t impressed. I was pretty ambivalent about picking Knox and I’m happier about it now, but I think his first season is going to be ugly. Folks are going to draw a lot of charges off of him. I didn’t see much defense of note. He shoots as advertised. Rebounding and aggressiveness/motor were the bright spots. There’s definitely potential though, I’m cautiously optimistic.

      Has anyone seen pace numbers? Seemed like the kids were doing a good job getting out in transition, I’m wondering how it compared to the other teams.

    101. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      The endowment effect argument is total BS. Since when does this board ever have some fan boy consensus?

      Huh? He’s referring to people getting real bullish about future All-Stars from 3 games of Summer League play. The whole board doesn’t have to agree for some of its posters to overvalue their players. And they do.

      Someone the other day said that Porzingis and R.J. Barrett (who this poster was implying would become a Knick) were certain to have better careers than Tatum and Brown. So far, Tatum has been markedly better than Porzingis on the offensive end, and he was a rookie starter on the league’s best defense. Brown is overrated but young, and Barrett hasn’t even played a minute of college ball yet. That’s the endowment effect in action.

    102. swiftandabundant

      Of course the fact that Tatum joined an all ready really good team has nothing to do with him being good, right? I mean, basketball players play in a vaccum and have no effect on each other what so ever. I’m sure if Porzingis was the starting center for the Warriors he’d put up the EXACT same numbers and stats as he has for us.

    103. dtrickey

      Nate Robinson won the Summer League MVP in 07……so yeah we can probably temper our expectations on Knox based on SL performances.

      That said, there are promising signs. I don’t think he has really addressed all the pre-draft concerns, but he looks like he will at least be fun to watch in what will likely be a down year.

    104. JK47

      Summer league is pretty much pure eye test. It’s a good sign if guys make shots, but really we’re watching these games for eye test value.

      I’m not really an eye test kind of guy, I follow sports pretty heavily through the lens of stats. I was reading Bill James back in the 80’s when he first started out. So I try not to take too much away from these summer league games. My very amateurish scouting eye likes Mitch Robinson’s game, sees a possibly valuable volume scorer in Knox and still has mixed feelings about Frank Ntilikina. The rest of the guys on the SL roster seem to be scrubs, Dotson and Trier included.

    105. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Of course the fact that Tatum joined an all ready really good team has nothing to do with him being good, right?

      He joined the 13th-ranked defense. Was Tatum good because the Celtics were good, or were the Celtics good because they had Tatum?

      Last I checked, the players are the ones responsible for a team’s performance. Pretty crazy concept, but I’m almost positive that it’s true. Almost.

    106. swiftandabundant

      The Celtics won 50 plus games the year before Tatum joined their team.

      I’m not saying Tatum isn’t good. But good teams are good bc they have good players and those players fit their roles. The Celtics drafted Tatum bc he fit a need for them. So he can slip into that role and have success bc the team WAS ALL READY GOOD.

      Not sure why this is a hard concept to figure out.

      If Boogie starts being more efficient and puts up great numbers for the Warriors this year are you gonna say he’s turned some corner or are you going to say that he’s joined the warriors and that’s why he looks good now?

    107. ethsurken

      He joined the 13th-ranked defense.

      *The 13th-ranked defense that lost Isaiah Thomas

      It definitely helps to have multiple bigs wings so that you can play the matchups according to your players’ strengths—Tatum often matched up against the worse option. And it definitely helps to play on a team with good spacing, with a coach that knows how to put his players in a position to succeed. I’m guessing Tatum got a lot more closeout and cut opportunities than he would’ve on the Kings or the Knicks.

      Tatum excelled within his role, and was insanely valuable—you can’t take that away. But on a worse team, he would’ve been in worse position to succeed (offensively and defensively), and likely would’ve had much worse impact metrics. This gets at the idea that the skills needed to succeed as a primary player are largely distinct from the those needed to succeed as a secondary player (shooting, defense, attacking a closeout). For example, Tatum would’ve likely been less impactful if he were on the Lakers in a Brandom Ingram role, but Brandon Ingram would’ve been terrible in Tatum’s role. Generally, these types of superstar role players (like Robert Covington, Otto Porter) are incredibly underrated and much harder to find than people think.

    108. danvt

      The endowment effect with regard to this blog is an argument with only one side to it. Of course, we’re Knick fans here. Of course, we’re going to be discuss Kevin Knox. I doubt blazerblogger.com is going to discuss Kevin Knox. When we do, some will overrate him, because, of course, we’re Knick fans here. Every single fan base overrates their players. Endowment effect? Sure. But we are MUCH less apt to do that on this board. Like MUCH. So, freakin’ much. How someone can look at the measured comments on this thread, both positive and negative, and conclude that we’re all a bunch of homers is beyond me. Sure, some are over the top if they’re comparing him to Tatum or predicting all star status. But saying that, because you point out that he held his own on the perimeter, you are overvaluing your own acquisition is something I find to be a lame argument and defining a psychological effect and generalizing it to a whole board of posters, with no actual quote attributed, I find to be objectionable.

      Maybe you’re right 2for18. Anything good can’t happen cuz Knicks.

      Z-Man, I saw a highlight on ESPN of Knox making a lefty layup. That must mean he’s figured it out. Hall of fame here we come! That’s my man!

    109. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Tatum excelled within his role, and was insanely valuable—you can’t take that away. But on a worse team, he would’ve been in worse position to succeed (offensively and defensively), and likely would’ve had much worse impact metrics.

      Yesterday, we were talking about how Chris Bosh became less measurably important to team success when he went to the very-good Heat. Today, we’re talking about how Tatum became more measurably important to team success when he went to the very-good Celtics.

      I don’t know which way is up on this board. I really don’t.

    110. Z-man

      JaVale McGee is a poster child for blowing up the “context doesn’t matter” argument. On the Warriors, he’s essentially Tyson Chandler in 9.5 mpg, especially the .642 TS%. Before that, he never broke the .600 barrier. Hard to believe that Kerr couldn’t figure out a way to play him 20 MPG, given that he was the 3rd best player on the team…or figure out a way to keep him, being that he signed with the Lakers for the vet’s minimum.

    111. ethsurken

      @131 You do realize Tatum and Bosh are different players, right? And different people post here?

      Rookie Tatum: more impactful as a secondary player than a primary player
      Prime Bosh: more impactful as a primary player than a secondary player

      Bosh’s best skill was volume scoring on above-average efficiency. Tatum’s best skills are shooting and defense.

    112. ethsurken

      Bosh also went from being a C in TOR to a PF in MIA, at least initially, so that hurt his rebounding and block numbers (and probably offensive numbers too). Playing next to Bargnani also tends to help your rebounding numbers.

    113. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Tatum, 2018 playoffs, team

      2nd in MP
      2nd in USG%
      1st in points
      1st in PPG
      2nd in PTS/36

      That’s a “secondary player,” eh?

    114. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Oh, let’s keep going.

      Porzingis
      2PT AST’d 64.7%
      3PT AST’d 98.9%

      Tatum
      2PT 56.5%
      3PT 92.4%

      They had virtually identical dunk %FGAs, so, IDK, maybe Porzingis is better at driving and “creating” his own dunk attempt? Doubt it.

      Looks like Tatum created more than Porzingis did. Amazing how the stats respond to a whole bunch of baseless conjecture.

    115. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      JaVale McGee is a poster child for blowing up the “context doesn’t matter” argument.

      And the Warriors are an example of a normal NBA offense, too. Uh huh.

      It’s a fact that the Rockets single-handedly destroyed the myth that long 2PA are necessary to create a balanced, spaced offense that can achieve high-efficiency results. Have you admitted that all your years of defense of inefficiency was wrong, too?

    116. ethsurken

      @135 Kind of, yeah. The Celtics’ top 5 players in minutes played all had between 15-20 points/36, so they were able to share the offensive load and attack mismatches. His usage only went from 19.5% to 23.3%.

    117. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      @135 Kind of, yeah. The Celtics’ top 5 players in minutes played all had between 15-20 points/36, so they were able to share the offensive load and attack mismatches. His usage only went from 19.5% to 23.3%.

      You realize you’re talking about a rookie who was 2nd in MP on a Conference Finals team that was one game from the Finals, right? A team missing BOTH of its max players? I don’t think you could write something more insulting about Tatum’s season than essentially calling him a role player. It’s insane, and wrong.

    118. ethsurken

      For the record, according to +/- stats, both Tatum and KP get most of their value from defense, not offense. KP is slightly above average on offense, and Tatum a little better than that.

      So you’re just saying that Tatum’s impact wouldn’t decrease if he had a higher USG% and worst teammates? I think it undeniable true that if you’re matched up against better defenders you’ll play worse. And if the floor is spaced less you’ll get to the rim less. And if your teammates are worse you’ll get less open looks.

      Harden is good mainly because he’s good at ISOs and PnRs—these are opportunities that are always available. Harden running more PnRs isn’t going to decrease his efficiency on them (other than him getting tired).

      I don’t have the Synergy numbers to prove this, but I’m guessing Tatum isn’t elite at ISOs and PnRs. The opportunities he’s good at are primarily jumpers and attacking closeouts—those opportunities can’t be created out of thin air. Someone else has to generate them.

      Please point out where I’m going wrong.

    119. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      The same team?

      Avery Bradley 645 MP (1st)
      Jae Crowder 596 MP (3rd)
      Isaiah Thomas 521 MP (5th)
      Kelly Olynyk 346 MP (6th)
      Gerald Green 192 MP (7th)

      Then some scrubs at the bottom of the rotation.

      I’ll do the math for you. Boston players played 4345 minutes in the 2016-17 postseason, and 2563 of those minutes played came from guys who were not on the roster for a minute of the 2017-18 season. That’s 58.9% of available minutes.

      So again, I ask: the same team?

    120. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      So you’re just saying that Tatum’s impact wouldn’t decrease if he had a higher USG%

      Flashbacks to 2012 ruruland. No thank you.

    121. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      I don’t have the Synergy numbers to prove this

      Okay, but not helpful.

      but I’m guessing

      Okay, so–

      The opportunities he’s good at are primarily jumpers and attacking closeouts—those opportunities can’t be created out of thin air. Someone else has to generate them.

      From where did you get this conjecture?

      Please point out where I’m going wrong.

      Making baseless claims is where you’re going wrong.

    122. ethsurken

      You realize you’re talking about a rookie who was 2nd in MP on a Conference Finals team that was one game from the Finals, right? A team missing BOTH of its max players? I don’t think you could write something more insulting about Tatum’s season than essentially calling him a role player. It’s insane, and wrong.

      I said he was a superstar role player. His impact was undeniable (up there with players we consider all-stars), but I think what he did is distinct from what a primary initiator/creator does, and his impact wouldn’t directly translate to such a role.

      Also, using those ASTD% numbers like that is misleading. Tatum was assisted on 66% of his shots overall (62nd percentile for wings) and 59% at the rim (54th percentile). KP was assisted 73% overall (52nd percentile for bigs) and 72% at the rim (33rd percentile).

    123. ethsurken

      From late January (47 games in):

      According to Synergy Sports, 60 percent of his catch-and-shoot attempts are unguarded. While a portion of that luxury is attributed to his teammates creating shots for him, his knack for locating open gaps behind the arc helps the offensive flow.

      Per Synergy Sports, Tatum ranks in the 92nd efficiency percentile on spot-up jumpers

      Through November, 43.3 percent of Tatum’s field goals had come on possessions where he made zero dribbles, per NBA.com. That rate shrunk to 35.1 percent in December and is at 32.1 percent so far in January.

      He does a nice job attacking overzealous closeouts and accepting what the defense gives him. Analytics gurus might say mid-range jumpers aren’t sexy, but the combo-forward consistently opts for open two-pointers over contested three-balls. He ranks in the 92nd percentile in medium-range jump shots,

      According to Synergy, 22.8 percent of Tatum’s shots at Duke came in isolation. That frequency was never going to translate into his rookie season […] Tatum sits at a palatable 9.4 percent, but the one-on-one specialist we saw last season is beginning to resurface.

      As a playmaker, Tatum has much more room to grow. Creating a shot for himself comes as second nature, but generating quality looks for his teammates would make him truly dynamic. He averages an underwhelming 1.3 assists per game.

      Perhaps his distribution statistics may be slightly skewed by Boston’s unique rotation, which includes four natural point guards (Irving, Marcus Smart, Terry Rozier and Shane Larkin) and an elite passing center in Horford, who averages 5.3 assists per contest, but he has the foundation to become a serviceable facilitator.

      I think this largely backs up what I’m saying—he obviously improved throughout the season though. It wasn’t baseless conjecture: I read about and watched basketball throughout the season, including reading articles that cited Synergy stats.

    124. TheOakmanCometh

      @130

      danvt,

      I’m not sure why you read my post and concluded that I was accusing every member of Knickerblogger of exhibiting the endowment effect. I didn’t say anything of the kind. But some people clearly are. Go back and read the first 100 comments. Some people were saying it’s obvious that Knox is going to be good, or saying he’s better than X other players in the draft. It’s 3 Summer League games. We know 0.001% more about him than we did on draft night. Anyone drawing major positive conclusions about him is just doing so because he’s our guy.

      We can evaluate what we see, but drawing conclusions from 3 glorified pickup games against scrubs is pretty clear evidence of bias.

    125. Ntilakilla

      What does “this” mean? Scoring 20+ PPG?

      He doesn’t mention PPG. I think he’s talking about Knox’s game. The fact that there aren’t many 18 year old NBA players 6’9? and over that can run the break, shoot a pretty 3 ball, shoot from mid range, can take man off dribble n drive, run the pick and roll, grab boards n initiate the break, and can 1 man fast break off the board.

      It’s amazing that the 9th overall pick has shown flashes of skills? I guess we have different definitions of amazing…

      The whole idea of drafting Knox 9th was that he was young, raw, and had untapped potential. It was the entire case that mitigated his lackluster college stats. A lot of people didn’t expect him to flash so much from the start. Here alone the consensus has been that he’s looked better than expected. I don’t get why it’s a revelation that people were pleasantly surprised.

    126. Ntilakilla

      This endowment effect stuff on Knox is overblown. It is Summer League, he looks good, and is impressing people there in Vegas (who aren’t Knicks fans). Everyone knows it’s a small sample size with many problems like high turnover rates, low 2P%, with a reliance on 3Ps and FTs. But, as someone well aware that KP is basically a league average WP/48 player with a troubling injury history, I don’t see why people need to be reminded about the fact that Knox is less than perfect. I am just happy with seeing a raw talented rookie with some legitimate potential to develop. But God forbid we emphasize the positive glimpses in his game without getting the 1,238,381th lecture about all of the many statistical reasons for why he won’t be a future All-Star. I will just go back to politics and breaking down dumb mainstream talking points.

    127. ethsurken

      Some more Tatum tracking stats. It’s hard to contextualize these though. He ended the season with 34.2% of his shots coming on zero dribbles and 22.1% on one dribble. In the playoffs, that went down to 20.6% and 20.2% respectively, and his catch and shoot frequency went from 26.1% to 13.6%. So maybe you can make the argument that by the time the playoffs arrived, Tatum was ready to be a primary initiator type. It’s much harder to make the argument for regular season. And I do think the Celtics were unique in the playoffs in that, for most of their minutes, all 5 players could handle the ball and score. That makes playing matchups much easier.

    128. bobneptune

      I like the minutiae of hoops stats as much as the next guy but arguing about Tatum is beyond silly. Anyone who watched this 20 year old in game seven try to single handedly (yeah Horford had a nice game , too) try to carry a choketastic group in Boston across the finish line like Aeneas lugging the great Anchises on his back out of fallen Troy knows he is a stone fucking stud.

    129. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Comparing Porzingis to other “bigs?” What does this mean? He plays like a tall wing on offense. Tons of midrange and 3s. He dunks about 1/3 as often as an Adams, 1/5 as often as a Capela, 1/6 as often as a DeAndre Jordan.

      If we’re going to harp on roles and how they make us think that Porzingis will have a better career than Tatum (which based on every measurable we have — laughable), we need to not cherry pick stats based on arbitrary ideas about “bigs” and “wings.” Porzingis is decidedly not a big on offense.

    130. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It doesn’t actually matter if KP will be a better player than Tatum, and that wasn’t the point. The point I was making is that RJ Barrett and Kristaps Porzingis, in the eyes of Kyrie Irving, would be better than Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. I don’t think Tatum regresses as a shooter, but I do think KP has a higher ceiling both offensively and defensively than Tatum. There are no stats to prove that except 7’3″ > 6’8″, and I’m okay with that. KP showed us, even if the sample size is small, what he was capable of when he’s firing on all cylinders. That type of player, the elite rim protector with the unstoppable offense, is likely better than anything Tatum can become.

      RJ Barrett is going to be better than all of them, though, and we need to tank to secure his services.

    131. swiftandabundant

      Jowles one of those top players for the celts the year before was isiah Thomas who was replaced by Irving who is a better player. What’s your point? The Celtics team the year before was just as good as this years team. Made the conference finals and got trounced by the Cavs. So in the most important respect, winning when it counts…Tatum didn’t really make them that much better.

      Roasted.

    132. ethsurken

      Comparing Porzingis to other “bigs?” What does this mean?

      It’s the categorization Cleaning the Glass uses to help contextualize stats.

      He plays like a tall wing on offense. Tons of midrange and 3s.

      I guess you could say that, but 23% of his shots came from three—only 61st percentile for bigs nowadays. I saw of a lot more of him in the mid/high post than on the perimeter. And he certainly dribbles the ball less than most wings do.

      If we’re going to harp on roles and how they make us think that Porzingis will have a better career than Tatum

      I think Tatum is better at this point, and that’s not counting the injury. I do think KP was largely misused on offense (not enough PnP, coming off screens), and that presumably has some effect on the +/- metrics. I wasn’t really trying to compare Tatum to KP though—just making the point that Tatum’s value/impact was likely helped by being on the Celtics. (Disclaimer: that doesn’t take away from the fact that what Tatum did within that role was incredibly valuable.) It’s just that most rookies are on losing teams, where they’re being groomed for and being put in bigger roles, in situations where they’re more likely to fail. Tatum was brought up gently.

      You have to agree, at least on the extremes, that player role effects player impact. What if you played KP as a PG? Or if you made Westbrook an off-ball shooter coming off screens? Or made Robert Covington your primary initiator?

    133. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Jowles one of those top players for the celts the year before was isiah Thomas who was replaced by Irving who is a better player.

      Thomas was a trainwreck on D, but he played 2500 minutes on .625 TS% and 34.0 USG%. That’s insane, Curry-like numbers.

      I would take Irving over Thomas ten out of ten times today, but in 2016-17? No way. Thomas was a total beast. Even ORtg, which sings the praises of low-volume scorers like Jordan, Porter, Gobert, Tristan T., Capela, Zeller, etc., had him at 12th overall.

    134. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      So in the most important respect, winning when it counts…Tatum didn’t really make them that much better.

      lol I don’t even know why I respond to this garbage

    135. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Tatum was brought up gently.

      I don’t really consider taking the LeBron Cavs to 7 without two max players “brought up gently,” but I think we have quite a few definitions that we’re not really seeing eye-to-eye on.

      And this whole conversation is about people saying that Porzingis will be a better player than Tatum because of the endowment effect. I’m not saying that Tatum was even the best rookie last year, or even all that productive, on the whole. I’m saying that Porzingis is less so, and two seasons more “mature.”

      I think a lot of people are overly bullish on their favorite team, and that it’s a pretty reasonable assertion to make. Sometimes it goes as far as “Derrick Rose didn’t rape that woman” (like an endowment effect of virtue — “my child would never do that”), a defense you don’t really see much of anymore, because he sucked as a Knick and is no longer a Knick. I noticed this on r/nyknicks and it was striking — where there was defensiveness or skepticism, there’s now a tone of “fuck that guy.” Interesting to watch it happen as he switched jerseys.

    136. ClashFan

      @151, bobneptune:

      I like the minutiae of hoops stats as much as the next guy but arguing about Tatum is beyond silly. Anyone who watched this 20 year old in game seven try to single handedly (yeah Horford had a nice game , too) try to carry a choketastic group in Boston across the finish line like Aeneas lugging the great Anchises on his back out of fallen Troy knows he is a stone fucking stud.

      …and bobneptune wins the thread! Aeneas and Anchises?!

      Well done, sir!

    137. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      They were probably thinking they might retain Lebron. Or maybe they just couldn’t do it before the draft because they didn’t have the cap space until he declined his option. Otherwise, I agree, it makes no sense.

    138. JK47

      I do think KP was largely misused on offense (not enough PnP, coming off screens)

      One reason KP doesn’t get PnP opportunities is that he is a straight up pitiful screener. You need the “pick” part for the “pick and pop” to work.

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