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Friday, November 16, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.05.22)

  • [NYDN] Steph Curry and Warriors are becoming team NBA fans love to hate
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 9:56:15 PM)

    First, Stephen Curry gave us the shimmy and then followed it with a slur. The All-American kid from next door isn’t so innocent anymore.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ntilikina back in NYC for Fizdale’s informal workout
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 4:23:29 PM)

    Looking to improve on his rookie season, Knicks PG Frank Ntilikina is back in New York, and ready to get to work with new head coach David Fizdale.

  • [SNY Knicks] Former coach on Miles Bridges joining Knicks: ‘I’d like to see him go there’
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10:53 PM)

    Back in October, Michigan State star Miles Bridges told me he would be “extremely happy” to play for the Knicks.

  • [NYTimes] Cavaliers 111, Celtics 102: LeBron James Got the Cavaliers a Win, but His Teammates Made it Fun
    (Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:08:32 AM)

    James performed the bulk of the work in a Game 4 win over the Boston Celtics, but Kevin Love and Kyle Korver had big moments as Cleveland evened the series.

  • [NYTimes] Not at the Game*: Courtside With Run TMC, Watching the Rockets Miss, Miss and Miss Some More
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 9:48:47 PM)

    “It’ll catch up to them in the third quarter,” Chris Mullin said about the Rockets’ shooting, which did catch up with them in the third quarter.

  • [NYTimes] Investigation? N.C.A.A. Scrutiny? Business as Usual in Grassroots Hoops
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 7:00:07 AM)

    A federal probe and criticism from an N.C.A.A. commission led by Condoleezza Rice have done little to change how shoe companies in youth basketball operate.

  • 99 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.05.22)

    1. Frank

      Fran Fraschilla seems to be pretty high on Miles Bridges. He seems to have been pretty spot-on with a lot of his player evaluations in the past…

      I’m torn on the Trae Young discussion from yesterday.
      It is true that he will probably get targeted mercilessly when it gets deep in to the playoffs.
      Yet we have not been deep into the playoffs since like 2000.
      Someone like him might just get us deep into the playoffs, but then be a relentlessly attacked weakness when we get there.

      If he’s available to us, I would consider trading down for the right package to a team that needs a point. Not sure what that package would be — like maybe PHX to get #16, #31, and a young player?
      Doubt LAC would give up #12 and #13.

      If not I think I’d probably pass on him and pick one of the Bridges. Of course that guarantees he’ll drop 50 on us in his first game at MSG.

    2. Frank

      btw we better spend some Dolan dollars on 2nd round pick(s) this year. What is the point of having the financial advantage if we don’t use it?

    3. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It’s been reported that the Knicks sent assistant GM Gerald Madkins to Michigan State to inquire about who Miles Bridges was for their program. I don’t know if this is standard practice, but hearing about this sorta stuff is encouraging. Better than Phil Jackson’s meetings at dinner based on the triangle.

    4. thenoblefacehumper

      I guess when you’ve won 13 rings as a player/coach and also played an important role in building the 2nd LA team there’s going to be an issue when utter morons in the media, fans, and players that don’t understand the game well enough to even ask the right questions let alone understand the answers are calling you an idiot and telling you what you are doing wrong.

      Does “why do you think it’s a good idea to constantly sign mediocre-to-terrible veterans to big money deals and in some cases give them full no trade clauses” count as a question that only an idiot with fewer than 13 rings would ask, or should the head executive of one of the most prominent franchises in professional sports be accountable to that one?

    5. Ntilakilla

      Fran Fraschilla seems to be pretty high on Miles Bridges. He seems to have been pretty spot-on with a lot of his player evaluations in the past…

      Anyone who has a cat named Calypso and is a Spiderman fan is alright with me. Sign him up!

    6. mase

      Troy brown is the most underrated player and deserves as much consideration as miles. He’s a better passer and as more versatile defensively. Miles is a slightly better scorer it to me it’s 1A and 1B; but he is a guy worth trading down for if miles is available.

      Trae is another story altogether. I’m starting to hope he is gone by 9.

    7. mase

      Holy shit!

      There is an article on FanSided in which the author suggests the knicks should start new and ‘steal the draft’ . He proposes swapping KP, our 9 and next years first for Phoenix #1.

      How does this writer have a job?

    8. hoolahoop

      Phil was a great hire, and Phil was a horrendous hire.
      Don’t blame this one on Dolan.
      There was plenty of reasons to believe he would make an excellent GM/President of basketball operations. He turned out to be an abrasive, arrogant, lazy dunce in that role.

    9. hoolahoop

      If the knicks draft a weak defensive player, it will prove their lack of self discipline to their own ideals.

    10. mase

      I wouldn’t trade our 9 and kp for their first! Are you kidding?

      They would have to include a future first for me to consider that trade.Kp is 22 and a possibly number 1 overall in this draft.

    11. kevin5318

      @12 Their main acquisitions so far have been Trey Burke and Enes Kanter. Wanting to build a defensive culture is just PR that every teams says.

    12. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      I’m starting to hope he is gone by 9.

      Agreed. I’m willing to be patient with Frank because I do believe defense wins championships, and it’s easier to improve on the offensive side given some basic ability like decent shooting form and spatial awareness, whereas the number of good offensive players who have improved their D is vanishingly small. Trae looks absolutely awful on defense, and I don’t see how we go anywhere long-term with that kind of player.

    13. ess-dog

      KP has a pretty serious injury, but I’d still rather just keep him and see what falls to #9 honestly. It would be nice to get another 1st in this draft, though.

      Question: if Trae falls to 9, do you take him or trade him for the two Clipper picks?

    14. Hubert

      I’m torn on the Trae Young discussion from yesterday.

      It would be hard for me to be pleased that we passed on Dennis Smith Jr because he couldn’t defend and then turn around and be happy that we drafted Trae Young.

      Of course, you’re prone to getting bipolar roster construction when you turn over mgmt.

    15. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      @11

      Given his injury history, I’d have to say Yes on that one. And it’s compelling enough that the Suns might be interested. No way they do it for just KP.

      I like KP and, again, think his defense could be key to winning a championship. But Doncic and say Miles Bridges with Frank would be a pretty nice young core. If Doncic did the creating, Frank could play PG and we would benefit from his strengths while covering for his weaknesses.

      Although…there aren’t any great bigs in next year’s draft, so maybe we would just create another problem we had trouble solving.

    16. ess-dog

      I do believe defense wins championships

      I want to believe this too, but it really felt like Marcus Smart was killing the Celts on offense last night. It was like they were playing 4 on 5 when he was in the game.

    17. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Kristaps Porzingis is not being traded. Let’s stop talking about this because it will dominate the thread as soon as Jowles, Frank, DRed, or JK47 decide they wanna talk about KP vs Doncic. KP and the 9th pick is a pretty silly trade, though.

      It’s starting to look like Doncic will slide to 4. If that’s the case, we should try to get Memphis to swap picks with us on draft night. If Memphis thinks moving down 5 spots in the draft is worth off loading Chandler Parsons, there may be a market for us there. I think they’d have to value Tim Hardaway Jr for that to happen, though. If they see TH2 as a young upgrade on the wing to Chandler Parsons, then turning the #4 pick into Tim Hardaway Jr and Miles Bridges might not look so crazy.

    18. DRed

      The last 3 teams to win a title have had Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving and Tony Parker playing point guard. None of those guys are a good defender.

    19. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      God damn, I didn’t realize Parsons is signed for another $49M over two years… my god, that is a terrible contract. And as a Knicks fan, I know a terrible contract when I see one.

    20. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah, if Doncic drops to 4 a trade up may be in the offing with Memphis. It’d be something like this:

      THJr. and Mudiay/Frank (only way to make salaries work), a pick swap, and our 2nd for Chandler Parsons and the #4 pick. Or instead of THJr. + 1 we can give them Kanter straight up for Parsons in which case they get their 17m back sooner since Kanter is expiring if he opts in.

      I still don’t think Memphis would bite on either deal, though.

    21. mase

      22

      i dont think thjr alone is enticing, salaries are both albatross’ albeit thjr not as bad as chandler but they would want more back, possibly frank and if they said that we would have to say no cuz they are not serious.

      silky

      that seems like an overpay unles doncic is there

    22. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Memphis isn’t contending anytime soon, so why would they be desperate to unload Parsons? Conley, Parsons and Gasol (player option) are owed ~$83M in 2019-20 and I can’t see a way in which an almost-35-year-old Marc declines his option, unless he’s desperate to play a year with Pau before retirement. A smart executive would tank hard until 2020-21 and deal anyone they can for more draft picks, not giving up the farm to unload a contract that will likely be insignificant long-term.

    23. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      The last 3 teams to win a title have had Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving and Tony Parker playing point guard. None of those guys are a good defender.

      Yes, but two of those teams were in the top 3 defense in the league and the other had LeBron James. As we are not going to get LeBron James, building a top 3 defense seems smart.

      Speaking of (Marcus) Smart, good D has its limits. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that Frankie has the tools to be as least neutral on offense. Smart doesn’t.

      Also, by the way, Curry is an OK defender. And somehow Kyrie defied my expectations and was decent on the Celts…freaking Brad Stevens….

    24. Hubert

      There’s a ton of things we don’t know, but I think it’s safe to assume we’re not trading up to draft Luka Doncic.

    25. mase

      i want luka with a passion but unless KP and his brother are in spain hanging out all together I dont think we have any way to move up to get him without luka saying “i will only play for Ny”

    26. Hubert

      Is Collin Sexton really that bad? These numbers are not as bad as I expected based on the narrative. Frankly, they are better than Donovan Mitchell’s numbers at Louisville (not that that’s a bar or anything; his college numbers didn’t jump off the page).

      https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/collin-sexton-1.html

      And unlike Young, the kid defends his position well. Sexton and Frank could become a reasonable facsimile of Mitchell and Rubio.

    27. Ingmarrrr

      KP, Willy, Frank and Dotson are laughing really hard when they hear this silly talk about Phil’s draft laziness.

    28. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Tim Hardaway’s contract isn’t good value but it’s not a Joakim Noah/Chandler Parsons level albatross either.

      And it wasn’t Phil we trusted as much as it was Clarence Gaines Jr, and the latter is still employed by the Knicks.

    29. DRed

      Collin Sexton is a perfectly fine point guard prospect. He’s good at scoring, and while you’d probably like to see better non-scoring production, his non-scoring production isn’t terrible either.

    30. SJK

      Is Sexton actually a good defender? I’ve seen conflicting reports and haven’t watched him play enough to know.

    31. JK47

      KP, Willy, Frank and Dotson are laughing really hard when they hear this silly talk about Phil’s draft laziness.

      KP: good pick
      Willy: traded away for nothing, may not be able to stick in modern NBA
      Frank: probably won’t stick at PG, jury is out whether he’ll ever be competent offensively
      Dotson: generic end of roster guy

      Spectacular haul there

    32. ClashFan

      If Phil was “lazy” and delegated the draft to Gaines Jr., then that was one of his few smart moves. In that case, the lazy was inspired. I hope current mgmt. is equally as lazy.

      The only way that the Knicks would package KP with the #9 to move up to get anyone would be if they have decided to START a 3+ year massive tank. I just can’t see them doing that, esp. with all the public love they are showing KP.

    33. Frank

      Memphis isn’t contending anytime soon, so why would they be desperate to unload Parsons? Conley, Parsons and Gasol (player option) are owed ~$83M in 2019-20 and I can’t see a way in which an almost-35-year-old Marc declines his option, unless he’s desperate to play a year with Pau before retirement. A smart executive would tank hard until 2020-21 and deal anyone they can for more draft picks, not giving up the farm to unload a contract that will likely be insignificant long-term.

      I think Zach Lowe or someone with similarly good sources suggested that Memphis is going to try and make the playoffs this year. They don’t have their 2019 1st round pick so there’s no reason for them to tank. Getting off Parsons for a less bad contract and useful player might make sense. But it’s a pipe dream to think we can trade up to 4.

    34. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      I couldn’t for the life of me figure out who the Grizzlies got back for that future first, or when it happened.

      2015, Jeff Fucking Green! Ahahahahahaha! The Celts are going to have another top-5 pick next year…

    35. lavor postell

      The pick Memphis owes to Boston is 1-8 protected next year, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. Also, if Conley and Gasol are healthy next season they probably have enough to be sniffing the 8th seed for most of the year.

    36. DRed

      As always that’s a really big if, and Marc isn’t that good anymore. Still, if Memphis wants to trade that pick and Doncic falls that far someone with actual good players to trade will almost certainly make a better offer than we could.

    37. Bruno Almeida

      There’s literally no reason for Memphis not to tank outside of wanting to show respect for Conley and Gasol for the years of service, but if they bomb this draft then convey their pick to Boston next year, it’s such a franchise crippling situation. They have exactly 0 promising young players right now, Gasol is done and Conley is 30 with such a long list of injuries.

      I don’t know if it’s the worst situation in the league but it’s gotta be at least top 3.

    38. iserp

      As always that’s a really big if, and Marc isn’t that good anymore. Still, if Memphis wants to trade that pick and Doncic falls that far someone with actual good players to trade will almost certainly make a better offer than we could.

      If Doncic falls that far, they’ll simply grab him. I mean, Doncic is hardly a project, he has been playing and winning at a proffesional level. If you want to say something bad about Doncic is that he might have developed earlier, and therefore his ceiling might not be as high as some people project it to be… but his floor is absurdly high already. If Memphis is thinking about going all-in next year, I think the better move is actually to keep Doncic.

    39. Hubert

      I spent my lunch reading up on and watching video of Sexton and he seems Mitchell-esque. Not that he (or anyone) is likely to duplicate the season Mitchell just had. Size is nearly identical. Stats are very similar. Expected to go around the same position in the draft. I’m even reading the same quotes from their college coaches saying there’s no way this guy should drop past 5.

      I’m not necessarily Team Sexton, but I think Sexton and Frank as a backcourt pair is a much better fit than Young and Frank. The Young + Frank = Perfect pair idea comes basically from the idea that one can score and the other can defend. That’s hardly the makings of a great pair. It means you’re covering for one player on both sides of the ball.

      Sexton is a plus defender and Frank is a very good defender. Together they have the foundation for an excellent defensive backcourt. On offense, their strengths and weaknesses dovetail perfectly. Sexton is aggressive but doesn’t create well. Frank has demonstrated good vision and passing but isn’t aggressive.

      And I hate to sound like I want a rough rider, but holy shit the stories of Sexton’s competitiveness are pretty impressive.

      Of the players who we may realistically be able to draft, I still want Carter the most but Sexton might be my #2 choice.

    40. DRed

      I think it’s likely there will be better prospects than Sexton available 9th, but he might be roughly equivalent to most of them. 19 year old guards are not easy to forecast.

    41. Hubert

      And you shouldn’t draft based on fit at 9, either.

      In all likelihood, the best players on the board when we draft will be Sexton, Mikal Bridges, and Miles Bridges. Previously, I’d have been annoyed if we took Sexton over Mikal. Now I think I like Sexton best of those 3.

    42. hoolahoop

      KP, Willy, Frank and Dotson are laughing really hard when they hear this silly talk about Phil’s draft laziness.

      KP fell in our lap by the ineptitude of winning the last two weeks of a lost season.
      Willy, Frank and Dotson are not exactly setting the NBA on fire.

      No one said Phil was lazy with the draft. He was lazy about everything.

    43. hoolahoop

      If you like shoot first, out of control PGs, Sexton is your guy.
      Russel Westbrook lite. Very, very very lite.

    44. GHenman

      I’m afraid Philly is going to put together a package of picks and or players to move up and grab Doncic or Porter. If that happens, it’s over for the east for the next decade.

    45. ess-dog

      I’m more and more into Zhaire Smith. I might even take him at 9 now but would love to get both Clipper picks and get him at 12.

      If he just tightens his handle a little, I think he’ll be better than Mitchell. He’s not an ideal fit next to Frank YET, but Frank can learn the point behind Burke during this coming tank year.

    46. english_knick

      Basketball insiders has JJJ dropping to 11! There’s basically no way he’s still there at 9 but if he is and we pass, I might lose my mind.

    47. ClashFan

      KP fell in our lap by the ineptitude of winning the last two weeks of a lost season.

      Sorry, but that is total bs. The Knicks were the laughingstock of the league, yet again. IIRC, they fell back in the lottery. Ha ha! Same old Knicks. Got the 4th pick in a 3 player draft! Ha ha!

      Lots of draft watchers expected Phil to pick someone more in Melo’s timeline, or to trade down. Lots of rumors of various players he liked not named KP. IIRC the lazy Phil went to Las Vegas to watch KP work out.

      It was a very nice and surprising pick. Seriously, you can’t give him that one small acorn of competence?

    48. Hubert

      I’m afraid Philly is going to put together a package of picks and or players to move up and grab Doncic or Porter. If that happens, it’s over for the east for the next decade.

      Mikal Bridges seems perfect for them. A good move for us (if we like two players at 9) could be taking Bridges at 9 and trading him for the #10 pick and Brooklyn’s 2nd round pick this year that they have. Then we could get Sexton and high 2nd.

    49. Bruno Almeida

      @54

      This is crazy. I know Atlanta and Memphis are not super thrilled with the idea of picking him but there’s a negative chance Dallas, Orlando and Chicago are all passing on him. They all need talented two-way big men.

      Dallas is rumored to be wanting to sign a veteran Center in free agency, which might mean they’re looking towards either Bagley, MPJ or Doncic dropping to them, but I can’t see JJJ dropping so much ever.

    50. Ingmarrrr

      KP fell in our lap by the ineptitude of winning the last two weeks of a lost season.
      Willy, Frank and Dotson are not exactly setting the NBA on fire.

      Like Clash, master of Deadwood said, KP was not a no brainer pick. Phil took a chance and won.
      Some 80% of the posters here love Frank. I do too.
      Willy and Dotson are 2nd rounders with a good shot at being rotation players. That’s good drafting.
      Everything else he did was mostly crap and he is an arrogant ass. I hated him in the 90’s.

    51. ClashFan

      @58
      Wow, that Deadwood endorsement continues to pay dividends!

      Like you, I pretty much “hated” Jackson back in the 90’s and was not thrilled when he was hired. He squandered a great opportunity here, but the guy was not the anti-Christ of team presidents.

      But anyways, let’s see who the new guys draft this year!

    52. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Like Clash, master of Deadwood said, KP was not a no brainer pick. Phil took a chance and won.

      KP has a career WS48 of .100, a career BPM of -0.1, and 7.5 wins above replacement over 186 games played. That’s not really “winning,” even if he’s not a Bargnani-level bust.

    53. hoolahoop

      @ 55
      KP was a great pick. But if it was due to the idiocy of winning games at the tail end of the season while vying for a lottery pick. If he played it smart, we would have picked in top three and never saw KP.

      @58
      I like Frank, too. That doesn’t make him a good player. If the world came to an end today, he was a bust, or close to it. Frank’s value remains to be seen.

      Dotson, Willy – Cmon. Really?

    54. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Also, I love iserp in the last thread being like, “I trust statistics (e.g. PER) that confirm my pre-established beliefs about a player.” This board never ceases to amaze.

    55. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Yeah, it’s a drag that people subscribe to a Manichaean view of the universe and can’t give Phil credit for the things he got right. He got plenty wrong, but it’s symptomatic of the f’ckd up dialogue in this country that people can’t concede any ground in arguments where it’s clear there is a lot of uncertain gray area. No, it has to be Fox and MSNBC pandering to their bases, mocking and ridiculing the other side. Straight binary. Why should it be different in basketball, and especially on a sports blog? I guess the “analytics” part always made me hope people could have more productive conversations.

      But yeah, Phil sucked and everything he did was terrible and KP was just luck and his other picks won’t even stay in the league despite their extremely good advanced stats and I could keep goink but what’s the point when he’s clearly THE WORST EVER.

    56. hoolahoop

      @62
      Does watching players play have any value in determining how good they are?

    57. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      KP has a career WS48 of .100, a career BPM of -0.1, and 7.5 wins above replacement over 186 games played. That’s not really “winning,” even if he’s not a Bargnani-level bust.

      Oh, come on, dude. We’ve discussed how defense is not adequately captured in the advanced stats you cite so often, and his primary value is on defense. You could, for instance, acknowledge that the team had a top 15 defense even when starting Jarrett Freaking Jack, two SGs, and Enes Freaking Kanter, and then when KP went down we somehow fell to the second worst defense.

      But nah, he’s a replacement-level player. Sure.

    58. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Hey Jowles, who would you have taken instead of KP – with the benefit of hindsight and all?

    59. hoolahoop

      No, it has to be Fox and MSNBC pandering to their bases, mocking and ridiculing the other side. Straight binary.

      Yeah, Fox and MSNBC is the same in opposite directions. That’s the most incorrect statement I’ve ever read here.
      News flash: Fox isn’t real news.

      I wish all the Trump supporters would just expose themselves so I know who not to take seriously.

    60. Bruno Almeida

      The 2015 draft has been weak enough that outside of obviously Towns there’s no one else. You could make a very tentative case for Booker just because he’s still so young and Myles Turner and Justise Winslow are probably going to have good careers, but KP was definitely the right choice. Delon Wright, Kevon Looney and Josh Richardson are all valuable players but not over KP at the 4th for sure.

      I’m disappointed in the lack of development and agree that just picking up the 2nd best player in a weak as hell draft is not a huge victory, but well, at least we didn’t get Okafor or Stanley Johnson or Mudiay (oops).

    61. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      Hoola, your comment is a perfect example of exactly what I’m criticizing. I’m further left than probably 95% of this board, but having Rachel Maddow whisper come-ons like “what else could have happened in that meeting?” night after night is just as bogus and non-news as most of the stuff Fox puts on. News is shit that happens, not speculation about what might have happened that plays to the prejudices of the audience. But if actual news and information were all that was reported, that would be bad for ratings. Good for constructive dialogue, and good for the republic, but bad for ratings.

    62. iserp

      Also, I love iserp in the last thread being like, “I trust statistics (e.g. PER) that confirm my pre-established beliefs about a player.” This board never ceases to amaze.

      I trust statistics that do not show a high variability from year to year; well, actually I don’t even trust those.

      If i referred to statistics, it is because it is nigh impossible to argue that Drummond had an historically great rookie season without WP48… I mean, how bad are the Detroit Pistons that at one point they had the best two players in the last 10 years in Drummond and Marjanovic and couldn’t make the playoffs.

    63. Owen

      The Noah deal was really bad. There were a lot of pretty bad things Jackson did. Drafting KP and Frank were not among them though.

      Ultimately, the triangle is total nonsense. The defense KP (if he recovers) and Frank can play is not.

    64. hoolahoop

      KP was the right choice.
      For drafting 4th that year, Phil should get the Joans Salk award.

    65. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      I trust statistics that do not show a high variability from year to year; well, actually I don’t even trust those.

      There are some problems using variability as an indicator of quality.

      1. You can be “consistently” wrong.

      2. Some stats are inherently very volatile.

    66. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      If i referred to statistics, it is because it is nigh impossible to argue that Drummond had an historically great rookie season without WP48… I mean, how bad are the Detroit Pistons that at one point they had the best two players in the last 10 years in Drummond and Marjanovic and couldn’t make the playoffs.

      Are you seriously asking how a team that plays 5 players at a time could have two exceptional players (one of whom gets played like 10 minutes per game at most) and not make the playoffs? Is that really your anti-stats argument?

      How did the 2016-17 Pelicans win 34 games with Anthony Davis as their starting center?

      How did the 2010-11 Timberwolves win just 17 games despite having Kevin Love with a ridiculous 11.4 Win Shares?

      Or what about the two times that the Sixers failed to make the playoffs despite having Charles Barkley at his peak?

      Basketball is a goddamn team sport, and it’s possible to have a great player on an otherwise-shitty team. The 1988 Sixers, for instance, had 18 players suit up, with only three players logging positive BPMs: Barkley (9.0), Cheeks (1.8) and Mike Gminski (0.6). 60% of the team’s minutes went to dreadful NBA players, with Dave Henderson, Mark McNamara, Albert King and David Wingate combining for approx. negative 8 wins against replacement. Not against league-average players — REPLACEMENT level players. But no, Charles Barkley wasn’t a real star!

    67. hoolahoop

      I’m further left than probably 95% of this board, but having Rachel Maddow whisper come-ons like “what else could have happened in that meeting?” night after night is just as bogus and non-news as most of the stuff Fox puts on. News is shit that happens, not speculation about what might have happened that plays to the prejudices of the audience. But if actual news and information were all that was reported, that would be bad for ratings. Good for constructive dialogue, and good for the republic, but bad for ratings.

      I could spend the rest of my day tearing that apart, but I’ll just say this. People at the extreme end of any political ideology screams warning bells to me.

    68. Ntilakilla

      Doncic is going to be so very good. I don’t understand how anyone here can argue against giving away KP + our pick to get him. I would do it in a heartbeat and would never look back. The basketball IQ is off the charts.

    69. Ntilakilla

      I’ve seen him play . I like him. Size, skill, vision, ability to shoot & manipulate p n r. He will be good. Lot of space in our league. If you can shoot & run p n r while making reads you will thrive. ESP at 6’7 https://t.co/8Bn5jjwOk6— CJ McCollum (@CJMcCollum) May 21, 2018

    70. JK47

      Yeah, it’s a drag that people subscribe to a Manichaean view of the universe and can’t give Phil credit for the things he got right. He got plenty wrong, but it’s symptomatic of the f’ckd up dialogue in this country that people can’t concede any ground in arguments where it’s clear there is a lot of uncertain gray area.

      What I like about sports is that there’s not a lot of gray area. Basketball is a zero-sum game. You either win, or you lose. It’s not like politics, where a certain policy might create certain winners and certain losers, and it takes many years to figure out who benefited. They keep score in NBA games, which is pretty useful! You can tell exactly how you’re doing.

      Phil inherited a shitty team, made it even shittier in the short term, and by the time he was done, it was just as shitty as the team he inherited, only three years had passed. He accomplished exactly fucking NOTHING. There is no gray area about Phil’s tenure. He drafted Porzingis, and yay for that. He drafted Frank, and *maybe* yay for that. But in the big picture, by the time Phil’s tenure was over this was still one of the worst franchises in the league, with little to look forward to in the short term OR long term. The most generous thing you can say about Phil’s tenure is that the team treaded water for three mediocre years, then came out of it with one promising player and one sort-of promising player. THAT’S IT.

      It’s pathetic how ridiculously low the bar is for the guy. I don’t know why people still do the “Phil wasn’t that bad doe” thing. I really don’t know how much more you have to suck to get a failing grade.

    71. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      IMO, none of the models are measuring KP’s ability as a basketball player very well. (and this is coming from a guy that was whining about him for much of the year).

      1. They don’t measure his impact on defense. He’s not just above average on defense. He’s VERY good.

      2. They are measuring his scoring efficiency based on the shots he IS taking instead of the how efficient he could be if he just changed his shot selection.

      The way you score very efficiently is by shooting effectively from 3, finishing well around the basket, getting to the FT fairly often, and hitting FTs at a high rate.

      Many players can’t do one or more of those things well. That’s why they aren’t efficient. He does all of that well!

      He was 39.5% from 3 last year, is 80% for his career at the FT line, is 63.1% for his career at the basket, and got to the FT line 6.4 time per 36 last year. There’s a little volatility in those numbers and I’m giving him credit for improving his 3 point shot last year, but those are the tools you need to get your TS% into the upper 57%-58% range or higher.

      His problem is SHOT SELECTION. He shoots too many mid range shots (last year he was forcing them up against double teams and off balance).

      But there is a difference between his profile and other players in the league with around 54 TS%.

      If you told peak Melo to stop shooting so many mid range and shoot more 3s instead, his efficiency wouldn’t have risen much because he was never a very good 3 point shooter (he had one or two good years from 3 with NY ).

      If you tell KP to stop shooting as many mid range shots his efficiency would rise without even improving his game or increasing the number of 3s he’s taking. Factor in some improvement and more 3s and he could easily be bumping near 60%.

      That’s an easy tweak to make. At 7’3″ it’s also very easy to imagine him finishing better once he’s stronger.

    72. iserp

      There are some problems using variability as an indicator of quality.

      1. You can be “consistently” wrong.

      2. Some stats are inherently very volatile.

      You are right, is more like I do not trust those that are volatile.

      Are you seriously asking how a team that plays 5 players at a time could have two exceptional players (one of whom gets played like 10 minutes per game at most) and not make the playoffs? Is that really your anti-stats argument?

      I am not sure if we really mean the same when we talk about HISTORICALLY good. The team actually had a few players that you could call average-ish, like Tobias Harris, Reggie Bullock, etc. Besides, when we talk about NBA players, we are mostly talking at the very tail of the gaussian curve… there are many bad players which are mostly similar in skill one to another, and a few really good ones that shine. I dont think there is the concept of historically bad players that counters your historically good one (ok, Bargnani, but he wasnt on the Pistons).

      And what is my anti-stats argument??? I am not against stats. Stats quantify objectively the game we like. Advanced stats do so in a way that removes unwanted effects like minutes played, pace, etc. Stats can be used to predict future perfomance. But WP48 is a numerology mumbo-jumbo that their proponents have the arrogance to say that predicts scientifically the performance of a team or a players, but is based on blantantly incorrect assumptions, is not tested against any sort of objetive experiment, and nobody dares to establish which are the limits in which its predictability is (supposedly) valid.

    73. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      And since 1990, here are rookie centers’ best seasons (>1000) according to WS48:

      Sabonis .233
      Ilgauskas .189
      Jokic .185
      Dean Garrett (30 years old as a rookie, .179)
      Yao .176
      M. Plumlee .176
      Drummond .172
      Oden .167
      Shaq .163
      Towns .151

      On the whole, does that look like a list of really, really good players to you? It does to me.

    74. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      I’m further left than probably 95% of this board, but having Rachel Maddow whisper come-ons like “what else could have happened in that meeting?” night after night is just as bogus and non-news as most of the stuff Fox puts on.

      I subscribe to the NYT, Economist, Nation and Reason, so I’m not one to advocate using cable news to inform yourself on any issue for any reason, but comparing the Fox News propaganda machine to CNN/MSNBC’s smirky, smug “analysis” is like saying that HPV and HIV are both diseases, so they’re both bad for you.

      CNN and MSNBC have clear signs of bias and often distort issues (CNN moreso) to promote a left-center agenda. Fox News is an actual state-adjacent propaganda machine that has no journalistic or analytical credibility whatsoever, and give significant air-time to people who are actively working against the American public to foment racial, gender and class warfare. I’d rather have a surgeon remove part of my skull, spit on my brain, and rub it in with a piece of steel wool than rely on Fox to make me a better-informed member of a liberal democracy.

      Both sides are bad, but one is actual cancer for society.

    75. ess-dog

      Looking at that list of rookie centers, none are very much like KP. They’re all inside bruisers, a lot of them with passing chops.

      KP is a pretty unique mix of rim protection and three-point shooting, but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily going to be an amazing player. So far he seems like he could be a mix of Channing Frye on offense and Manute Bol on defense, which could be pretty productive, but you need to fill in the gaps around that: stretch-4 defense, rebounding, and maybe some passing out of the post.

      Maybe that’s a guy like Robert Williams? Jontay Porter? I don’t know.

    76. DRed

      , and then when KP went down we somehow fell to the second worst defense

      You say that like we didn’t also replace The God Ron Baker with Trey Burke, a terrible defender

    77. hoolahoop

      Another overlooked attribute of KP, maybe the one that made Phil pull the trigger on him, is his work ethic and commitment to progress. He has a relentless desire to improve.
      Some guys like to practice and get better. Some don’t. Some see their sport as their craft, and will work on their game endlessly. For others, fame and fortune may be more important. Or developing their brand.

      Eventually, KP may become a real beast in this league.

    78. Jack Bauer

      “Eventually, KP may become a real beast in this league.”

      As soon as he stops wearing down in the 2nd half of the season. I hope you’re right, he does seem to want to work hard to become a star. God knows the Knicks are due for something to go right.

    79. JK47

      As soon as he stops wearing down in the 2nd half of the season.

      Second MONTH of the season more like

    80. Jack Bauer

      @87 – duly noted

      I saw a mock draft today where Michael Porter Jr. fell all the way to 8 and was picked just before the Knicks by Cleveland. That would be really disappointing if it comes to pass.

    81. Hubert

      I’ll say this about Phil: I wanted him *gone* for shopping KP. In retrospect, he was absolutely right to shop him last summer while his value was high. And he was right about why he wanted to shop him, too.

      His demand from Ainge was the #3 pick last year, Jaylen Brown, Jae Crowder, and Brooklyn’s pick this year. In hindsight, how can you be mad at a guy willing to trade KP for that? In retrospect I’d probably have been happy with 2 of the 3 non-Crowder items in that trade.

    82. alsep73

      Stein:

      The Suns have brought former Knicks coach Mike Woodson to Phoenix to discuss joining new coach Igor Kokoskov’s staff as top assistant, league sources say. @Gambo987 said on his radio show today that the decision has already been made to hire Woodson

      No Woody Part 2, it seems. If this were a healthier franchise, I wouldn’t mind him as an assistant. With our front office, there would always be the danger of Dolan wanting Woodson to replace Fiz at the first sign of trouble.

    83. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I see no reason for Cleveland to take Michael Porter Jr unless he signs with an agent from Klutch Sports. Porter Jr shouldn’t even work out for Cleveland.

    84. Hubert

      They don’t measure his impact on defense. He’s not just above average on defense. He’s VERY good.

      When discussing KP on defense, I think we need to separate the components of defense. KP is at outstanding rim protector. But he’s a terrible defensive rebounder. That weights against his overall contribution on the defensive end.

    85. djphan

      kp’s work ethic is something i’m not a huge believer in… he hasn’t exactly improved much since he entered the league… and had the same conditioning issues a month or two into the season…..

      his post game was mildly improved but he didn’t really add much to his offensive repertoire…. he seemed a tad bit stronger but that’s really about it….

      maybe questioning his work ethic is out of bounds… he may or may not be working out hard… but he is certainly not working out smart… at least thus far….

    86. Oaktrees

      The one thing I don’t mind about Sexton is that he was coached by Avery Johnson and he seemed to turn around that Alabama team. I doubt he’d be the end of the world, but yeah I’d rather a wing.

      Surprised at Woody not coming back. Figured he’d come aboard, wait for Fizz to get canned and swoop back in.

      Just need a solid basehit at 9, I don’t wanna swing for the fences

    87. Brian Cronin

      Surprised at Woody not coming back. Figured he’d come aboard, wait for Fizz to get canned and swoop back in.

      I think he thinks he’ll have a better chance vulturing a job from a brand new NBA coach.

    88. Brian Cronin

      I would never take credit away from Phil for drafting KP and Frank. He deserves it. Good job on those picks, Phil!

    89. Ben R

      Why do people think Collin Sexton is good defensively? His steal and block numbers are really low, like red flag low. He also has a terrible dws/40 and dbpm. His numbers are actually worse than Young who has decent steal and block numbers. On top of that his assist numbers are bad. I like his grit and his work ethic and with a mid-round pick he’d be worth the gamble but nothing in his numbers jump out except free throw rate and pts.

    90. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      @82

      The only time I watch Fox News is if I am making an effort to get the a perspective on an issue that is different from what I am hearing from all the mainstream news outlets with a left wing agenda (which is most of them).

      CNN is more of the media arm of the DNC than an unbiased news organization.

      The Washington Post is currently (not always) more of the media arm of the intelligence community.

      The NY Times is some weird combination of self loathing extremist leftists and commie lovers. There are some great sections in the NY Times, but an honest or competent discussion of politics is not one of them.

      I’d comment on MSNBC but I can’t bring myself to watch it at all.

      If you are getting your information from any of those sources (and I include ABC, NBC, and CBS in that) you are getting spoon fed various combinations of incompetence, spin, lies, and purposeful deception. If you find any of them to be good, it’s only because they are spoon feeding you what you want to hear and think.

      The closest thing to real news anywhere in the mainstream is Barrons but only because they are mostly about economics and making money. In that area it’s easy to be wrong, but they are at least making a good faith effort.

      The same is not true of CNBC for example. CNBC is an extension of the Wall St rape and pillage machine trying to bring in new suckers to buy overpriced and junk securities that will make the rich richer.

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