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Tuesday, August 14, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.05.21)

  • [NYPost] Tom Izzo thinks Miles Bridges is a ‘weirdo’ Knicks could use
    (Sunday, May 20, 2018 6:58:41 PM)

    Miles Bridges’ decision to return to Michigan State for his sophomore year upset his mother, stunned his coach and made national headlines. The dynamic Big 10 Freshman of the Year was projected a mid-to-late lottery pick after what figured as a one-and-done college career. Miles’ mother, Cynthia, was set to quit her job as a…

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina ready to prove his worth to new Knicks coach
    (Sunday, May 20, 2018 5:12:09 PM)

    “The French Prince’’ has arrived in New York. Knicks point guard Frank Ntilikina’s unofficial start to his second NBA season begins Monday when he huddles for the first time with new coach David Fizdale at the team’s Tarrytown facility, according to an NBA source. Ntilikina, 19, flew in from France on Sunday after spending the…

  • [NYTimes] Investigation? N.C.A.A. Scrutiny? Business as Usual in Grassroots Hoops
    (Monday, May 21, 2018 7:00:07 AM)

    A federal probe and criticism from an N.C.A.A. commission led by Condoleezza Rice have done little to change how shoe companies in youth basketball operate.

  • 75 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.05.21)

    1. Z-man

      We should embrace the reality that Doncic is not going to be a Knick. Any chance of getting him would require the kind of short-sighted trade that we are famous for. Giving up multiple draft picks and young players would be incredibly dumb.

      There will be some really good players available at #9. Unless someone offers a trade we can’t refuse (say, #9, Frank and the 2nd rounder for a guarantee of Doncic, meaning not until draft night), just stay put and draft the best player available.

    2. Frank

      @1 – generally agree, although depending on what the scouts think of Doncic, if they think he’s a generational player, any price might be worth it. No one thinks he’s Lebron, but if you could get 85% of Lebron, wouldn’t that be player be worth Frank + 9 + 36 + next year’s top-3 protected pick?

      Gonna get a couple grievances off my back right now —

      1) Phil Jackson really was the worst — not just because of his smarmy arrogance (although that certainly played into it) but because he walked in feeling so entitled — basically saying that just because he won a bunch of titles as the coach of some of the best rosters in NBA history, he couldn’t be questioned. Worse, so entitled that he didn’t need to put in the work. I mean, look at the coaching “searches” he did. He basically never traveled anywhere to actually see potential draftees play. Now it turns out that his draft record is reasonably ok, but what kind of message does that send to the rest of the organization? He’s taking vacations in Montana and smoking peyote while other teams’ front offices are grinding.

      NYC franchises are now led by some real grinders — Jets have McCagnan, who still lives the life of a scout. Brian Cashman, one of the most accomplished guys out there, still looks like he slept in his office 4 out of the last 5 nights (which he probably did). Perry/Mills are out there turning every last stone, interviewing 11 coaching candidates, 20 draft candidates. Most of this work is probably wasted, but putting in the work will eventually pay off.

      2) Porzingis needs to just get over it. I don’t know what happened in the previous regime, but this whole thing where Fizdale has to go chasing him across Europe feels very high school. It’s a new front office — come back into the fold and start being part of the solution already. WTF does Fizdale have to meet with KP’s big brother first? Just get on the phone and figure it out.

    3. Ntilakilla

      1.) 85% of Lebron is basically a Larry Bird type player who can score, pass, and rebound. I would trade KP and next year’s pick for that type of a talent since that is still a once a generation type guy.

      2.) Speaking of KP, I still think we should consider the possibility of dealing him if we do land a Doncic trade once his value is highest to get back the capital we’d trade to land him. KP’s history of injury and fatigue is starting to worry me in a Yao Ming sort of way and its always better to part with a player earlier than later, especially in those circumstances.

      3.) I don’t get the criticisim of KP’s choice to leave the noise of NYC for the offseason and train in Europe where he’s comfortable.

    4. Frank

      KP can stay in Europe all he likes, but how about showing some commitment to the organization? Even verbally saying he’s excited about the new hire and working with the front office? All we hear or see from him is “I’m working on getting healthy”, “I stay out of what the front office is doing”, “I’m excited about my brand”, and “here are my youtube videos of me working out”.

      Just say – “I’m ready to turn the page on the last 3 years, work with the new front office and coach to make the Knicks a perennial force for the next decade”, or “I’ve heard great things about Coach Fizdale from everyone around the league and am excited to work with him to fulfill my own and the team’s potential”.

      Instead — Fizdale is going to chase him around Europe if and only if Janis says it’s ok. These guys should be meeting in the middle as equals, as partners. Instead it’s a puppy dog chasing the self-perceived hottest girl in high school. It’s freaking ridiculous, honestly.

      Look KP, you’ve made your dissatisfaction known. You’ve won the power struggle multiple times over with the firing of Phil and then the firing of Hornacek. Come back to the freaking table and act like a leader of this team, regardless of your injury.

      Now this could all be going on behind the scenes, but it sure doesn’t seem like it.

    5. ProjectKnicks

      Knicks’ best bet is to trade Porzingis while they can. Assuming the NBA has not realized by now that he is more Bargnani than Nowitzki.

      Porzingis actually believes the ‘superstar’ hype the Knicks created around him. A good benching by the new coach would go a long way toward making him more productive. He should alternate starts with KoQ. Treat him like a young player with potential (that’s all he is as of today) and he will develop better and faster.

    6. Ntilakilla

      KP can stay in Europe all he likes, but how about showing some commitment to the organization? Even verbally saying he’s excited about the new hire and working with the front office? All we hear or see from him is “I’m working on getting healthy”, “I stay out of what the front office is doing”, “I’m excited about my brand”, and “here are my youtube videos of me working out”.

      I think KP is just like every NY Knick fan who’s been burned one too many times. In the 3+ years he’s been in the league the guy has seen four different head coaches , 2 Presidents of Basketball Operations, has played with a roster where Joaquim Noah and Derrick Rose were supposed to be starters, and hasn’t been anywhere near a winning situation. Its okay for him to be a skeptic as far as I am concerned just like fans and the organization should be skeptical about aspects of his development as a longterm reliable superstar with longevity in this league.

    7. kevin5318

      I would start taking serious calls about KP right now. Theres enough red flags right now with him potentially being injury prone, maxing out in November and how he handles himself off the court.

    8. ProjectKnicks

      generally agree, although depending on what the scouts think of Doncic, if they think he’s a generational player, any price might be worth it.

      That’s the type of irrational, dumb thinking that has the Knicks buried under tons of basketball shit. No player in history is worth “any price”, for the simple reason you need to keep enough resources to put around the “Any Price” Star.

      Do you remember Melo?

    9. ProjectKnicks

      You can not compare Melo to Doncic, that’s obscene.

      I’m not comparing Melo to Doncic. One is an NBA player, the other is not (yet).

      The point (I thought it was obvious) is that the same line of irrational, dumb thinking was used to justify the terms of Melo’s acquisition, with catastrophic results. We should know better than that by now.

    10. TheOakmanCometh

      We should know better than that by now.

      You’ve just uncovered the new franchise motto.

    11. KJG

      I like KP… I don’t love KP… I don’t think a lot of other teams love him either, so if we were to deal him, I gather we’d all be disappointed with the haul… like someone else said, we’ve seen a few red flags already… I can forgive him if/when he starts knocking down shots after some contact… That’s been my biggest gripe… When he goes all Melo, takes some contact (no foul) and throws up a horrendous attempt… you want to be the man… prove it… he still hasn’t proven much… there are glimmers of hope yet they don’t shine as bright as they used to… I want crash the boards dunk KP back…

    12. mase

      I m going on record to trade next years first swap out 9 to whoever for doncic. Historically giving up multiple firsts I had not worked out for us but getting a potential franchise player for a first to play next to Kp would be worth it .

    13. english_knick

      I’m not a draft expert and I haven’t seen Doncic play but I do worry that the unknown is a huge allure to people. As a prospect he’s not without his weaknesses, according to the scouting profile. Multiple firsts/recent firsts is, in my book, what you trade for established all stars. That’s not to say there aren’t trades I would do for Doncic but I doubt Phoenix is giving up no1 for what I think would be fair value…

    14. english_knick

      On KP, I think the sad thing is that pre injury KP was probably a player who with a strong coach and the right development could have changed the game. But he already hasn’t had the right coaches or development. His shot selection is poor. And now his body is a concern. I love the idea of his game, but the reality is his chances of reaching his potential may have been significantly reduced the day he was drafted by the Knicks.

      He’s still young though – if he comes back healthy and the new regime can get its shit together, all hope is not lost.

    15. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      @2

      You can argue that a triangle or triangle hybrid system can’t work anymore (which of course is the popular view and a crock of crap because even the Warriors and Spurs run triangle sets), but you certainly shouldn’t waste much time interviewing coaches that believe in a P&R dominant offense or something else you despise (which is most of them).

      If you ask me, most of the coaching interviews we just did were a dog and pony show for the media and fans. At best they were trying to give some guys that want to be a coach a few headlines so we score points around the league and with their agents. They made up their mind they wanted Fizdale before the process even started. They contacted him before Hornacek was fired. The only way he wasn’t getting offered the job was if there was a serious personality conflict when they interviewed him. Phil skipped the dog and pony show and didn’t waste time on guys like Thibodeau because he knew it was not a fit. He went straight to his own coaching tree because that’s the way he wanted the team to play.

    16. Frank

      @stratomatic –
      While I agree that the coaching search was in part for the media to eat up, I’m of the opinion that talking to smart people about your team is just a good idea. I’m sure they asked all the candidates about their ideas on how to improve the team, how they would develop each player, how they thought about the players on the team as an opposing coach etc.

      Phil only interviewed people that he knew personally. That’s a pretty close-minded way to do business if you ask me, even if your intent is to just play the Triangle. Actually, he hired Hornacek, who he didn’t know, and who didn’t know the Triangle from a hole in the wall even now 2 years later. So that means he was willing to go outside his circle. If he was willing to do that, why not do a real coaching search?

      And in terms of just hiring the people that he knew, do you think Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens had decades of experience with each other? Or did Ainge see a really smart coach outside the mainstream coaching bubble and make an amazing hire?

      Phil was an old, tired, lazy, closed-minded, arrogant old man who thought he knew better than everyone else. Surprise — the league is smarter now (and he is not).

    17. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      With some good coaching, better play making, and enough of a team around him to make doubling him a little more problematical, a healthy KP is going to average between 20-25 points per 36 with a TS% in the 57% -58% range while being one of the best defensive big men in the league. Eventually, he could even do a little better than that.

      He is already hitting 39.5% of his 3s and around 80% of his FTs.

      That alone gets you into the 60% range.

      The issue has been shot distribution. He’s taking too many mid range shots and not getting enough easy shots at the basket off lobs, cuts, offensive rebounds etc.. Hopefully, Fizdale will have him taking more 3s, get his shot selection under control, and get him a few more easy baskets with the benefit of better PG play. As he gets stronger he should also be able to finish better around the basket.

      KP is the least of our problems as long as he stays healthy.

    18. ClashFan

      I haven’t been following Fiz’s travels. Is it true that the Porzingis clan is screening him from KP? Surely not?

      I don’t care for Janis based on some of his previous comments, but he is KP’s agent, so there might be nothing there out of the ordinary.

    19. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      Phil only interviewed people that he knew personally. That’s a pretty close-minded way to do business if you ask me, even if your intent is to just play the Triangle. Actually, he hired Hornacek, who he didn’t know, and who didn’t know the Triangle from a hole in the wall even now 2 years later. So that means he was willing to go outside his circle. If he was willing to do that, why not do a real coaching search?

      The only reason he had anything to do with Hornacek is that the brain dead NY basketball media, much of the rest of the basketball media, the fans, and Melo hated him and the triangle. For better or worse he wanted Rambis to continue implementing the triangle with players that fit the system, but that was impossible if he wanted to keep his job.

      That final year was one gigantic appeasement tour starting with appeasing Melo by blowing up the rebuild movement and bringing in Rose/Noah/Lee, bringing in Hornacek to run a more uptempo and traditional offense, and so on. Then by mid season he realized he had made a gigantic blunder and figured that if he was going to get fired he should at least get fired on his own terms. That’s why he brought back the triangle. He made a terrible mistake appeasing Melo and breaking up what he was doing. He made an even worse mistake thinking he could change Melo to begin with.

    20. d-mar

      Phil was an old, tired, lazy, closed-minded, arrogant old man who thought he knew better than everyone else. Surprise — the league is smarter now (and he is not).

      That very accurately (and depressingly) sums up the Phil Jackson era. 3 years totally wasted.

      If you want to look at the bright side, if the Knicks had drafted 3rd in 2015 like they were supposed to, Phil would have definitely drafted Okafor. And that would negate the one good thing Phil did as Knicks GM which was drafting KP.

    21. Hubert

      The Ringer posits that Trae Young is a superb fit. Your thoughts?

      New York Calling?

      Earlier this week, Trae Young’s father, Ray, told the New York Daily News that New York is a desirable destination for his son because of the spotlight its big market creates. “That’s what Trae lives for,” Ray said of his son, who interviewed with New York on Friday. Multiple league sources told me that the Knicks have the hots for the Oklahoma point guard, so the interest is mutual. It’s easy to understand why: Young is an ideal fit alongside Frank Ntilikina, whom the Knicks view as a 2-guard who can occasionally run the offense. Ntilikina could space the floor to allow Young to work his magic on the ball; conversely, Young could race through screens off the ball to get open for 3s while Ntilikina initiates the offense. It’d be a perfect pairing to ease the workload on Kristaps Porzingis.

      Young is 178 pounds and 6-foot-2 with a puny 6-foot-3 wingspan. Players with similar physical dimensions include Kemba Walker, Shabazz Napier, and Norris Cole. College offenses bullied the limited defender, and NBA offenses will take advantage of him even more. Unless he’s covered. Ntilikina, 19, already defends like a veteran, so he can take the tougher backcourt player and mitigate Young’s primary weakness. It’s unclear if Young will be available when the Knicks pick at no. 9. The Magic (no. 6) and Cavaliers (no. 8) both need point guards and have been connected to Young; after all, LeBron James did give Young his blessing. But fit is king in the NBA, and New York would provide Young both the ideal personnel and stage to perform.

      https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/21/17374906/nba-draft-combine-rumblings-takeaways

    22. Hubert

      My $0.02:

      I don’t believe he’s a perfect fit at all.

      When I look at the Warriors and Celtics (and they’re the two model franchises right now) I see one thing in common: they both identified a player type, and that identity influenced all their player acquisition decisions. To me, a perfect fit is another versatile, two-way player like KP & Frank. Even if Trae becomes a poor man’s Damian Lillard, you have to hide him on defense and I think we’re past the point where you can win like that.

      Just look at Houston. James Harden might be the most efficient offensive player on the planet, but Golden State just attacks him relentlessly on offense and Houston won’t be able to overcome that. What would an elite team do to a guy like Trae? (Probably what Houston is trying to do with Curry, but with more success.)

    23. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Young is going #8 to the Cavs, who desperately need a superstar-caliber prospect to keep James in town. The Knicks could have had him (or any of the picks between 5 and 8) but it was more important to win a bunch of meaningless games than it was to position the franchise to draft a potential star.

      Because Knicks, because always Knicks, never-changing Knicks.

    24. kevin5318

      I mean who’s to say elite teams wouldn’t shut down the Bridges or run a guy like Carter off the floor.
      We just gotta chose the best player and worry about the rest later.

      Someone else but KP needs to be able to score the ball.

    25. Ben R

      When did we try and win meaningless games? When KP was playing like a superstar and we looked like a team ready to take a step forward or after he got hurt and we had the 2nd worst record in the NBA over that span.

      Even teams jockeying for draft position win games sometimes. We did our best short of cheating to lose over the last couple months. Our leading minute getters at the end of the season were 3 d-league call-ups and two rookies. We shut down our starting PG, our C, and our SG. We had one starter playing consistently at the end of the season, everyone else was shut down. The wins were unfortunate but for the most part unavoidable.

    26. ClashFan

      That very accurately (and depressingly) sums up the Phil Jackson era. 3 years totally wasted.

      While Phi overall did not do a good job, they weren’t totally wasted. He did draft/acquire KP, Frank, Willy, and OQ. And to a lesser extent, Ron and Dotson.

      Now, he made several really bad big decisions, too, of course, and did need to go. A gigantic missed opportunity.

    27. Hubert

      I mean who’s to say elite teams wouldn’t shut down the Bridges or run a guy like Carter off the floor.
      We just gotta chose the best player and worry about the rest later.

      The thing with versatility and interchangeability is that you can’t focus on any one player. Who is the weak point in Boston’s defense, for instance? Who can’t switch on Golden State?

      Those two teams have nearly identical defenses, and those defenses are why they’re the two best teams in the league. Of course it helps Golden State that their offense is as great as their defense.

      Carter and Bridges project to be pluses on the defensive end at multiple positions, so they would contribute to that and make it harder for teams to target anyone.

    28. Ingmarrrr

      Phil was not the worst. IT was.

      The Knicks did not stupidly win meaningless games.

      But this one IS true: Some posters here are bots.

    29. hoolahoop

      Phil was lazy, arrogant, dated, and had a terrible relationship with his players. He made horrible deals and insisted on a system that was obsolete and the players hated. Elite FA’s wanted nothing to do with him. And he acted like a jerk, not a Zen master. He set the knicks back at least five years. Thank god he’s gone.
      Just a hunch, but I don’t think any other NBA teams will be offering him a GM position.

    30. kevin5318

      I would love Carter and both Bridges but Trae has enough talent to singlehandedly transform our offense.

      I get that we want multi positional defenders but we have a good defensive foundation with KP, Frank where those guys can cover for him.

    31. Frank

      If Trae Young is as good offensively as he was the 1st half of the year, then it barely matters that he’s not good on the defensive end. He’d be a better passing 2015-17 Isaiah Thomas whose defense probably wouldn’t be quite as bad. Trae was an offense unto himself. Put KP and some good 3/D type players around him and it could be pretty damn good.

      Not every player can be the best 2 way player in the world. Harden and Curry are both pretty target-able on defense and we would certainly trade places with the Rockets and Warriors.

    32. Hubert

      I would love Carter and both Bridges but Trae has enough talent to singlehandedly transform our offense.

      I guess what I’m pondering is if we’ve reached a point in the NBA where a player who can singlehandedly transform an offense but can’t cover a position on defense is still someone you want to build around. Does building around that kind of player ultimately limit your upside to contender (as opposed to champion)? Of course, I know we would die to be as flawed as a team that just can’t get past the Warriors. And being the 2017 Celtics would be incredible around here. But that team was always capped as an also-ran.

    33. Jack Bauer

      Phil is 100% smug and arrogant, there is no getting around that. Considering his performance with the Knicks was mediocre at best I’m very glad he’s gone.

      Regarding KP, the issue that is the most troubling is his stamina. At his age this should not be a problem. I understand he has anemia (or something along those lines), and if so it is likely that will only become a bigger problem as he gets older. There is definitely a pattern of him starting out strong in November and December and tapering off as the year goes on. He is very talented and in some respects a “unicorn”, but he needs to straighten out this problem to achieve stardom.

      Lot’s of blowouts so far in these playoffs. I hope tonight’s game is compelling so I don’t have to fast forward through most of the 2nd half, that’s getting old.

    34. thenoblefacehumper

      That final year was one gigantic appeasement tour starting with appeasing Melo

      Personally, I think the appeasement tour started when he made Melo the highest paid player in the sport and one of three or so players with a full NTC. Once that decision was made, there wasn’t any coherent rebuild he could’ve started even in theory. Sure, Rose and Noah were the most egregious steps in the wrong direction, but there are countless known examples of him passing up on picks in favor of cap space that he then used to sign players who were obviously not going to be part of any “rebuild” (Afflalo, Williams, Seraphin, etc.).

      The idea from the start was that the triangle would make Melo such a good player that Phil could then use his genius to build a contending core around him using the free agent market almost exclusively.

      In other words, you really have to torture the facts to pretend he was even a minimally competent executive.

    35. kevin5318

      The thing about appeasing Melo is that he should’ve actually got good players to play with him.

    36. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Trae Young and Frank Ntilikina make a ton of sense together I think. Not only that, but Trae Young would make KP dive and run the pick and roll.

      I don’t think he gets passed Orlando but if he does Cleveland will take him because LeBron. Michael Porter Jr remains the most likely candidate to fall to New York.

      Ayton
      Bamba
      Bagley
      Doncic
      Jackson Jr
      Young
      Carter Jr
      Mikal Bridges
      Michael Porter Jr

      That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. There is just so much talent in that top 8 I don’t see a team that will take a risk on Porter’s back. It only starts to make sense at pick 9 when the talent pool looks like Miles Bridges, SGA, Collin Sexton, DiVincenzo, and Kevin Knox.

    37. geo

      We should know better than that by now.

      You’ve just uncovered the new franchise motto.

      nice – i would so rock that t-shirt with the knicks logo above that: We should know better than that by now.

    38. geo

      for the record – if it came down to our pick and either frank or kp for doncic – i’d let kp go…

      i think the chance for continued health concerns for kp is real…i hope he stays and can stay healthy, but, i’d still stick with frank…

    39. thenamestsam

      I guess what I’m pondering is if we’ve reached a point in the NBA where a player who can singlehandedly transform an offense but can’t cover a position on defense is still someone you want to build around. Does building around that kind of player ultimately limit your upside to contender (as opposed to champion)? Of course, I know we would die to be as flawed as a team that just can’t get past the Warriors. And being the 2017 Celtics would be incredible around here. But that team was always capped as an also-ran.

      I think it’s important to remember in this discussion that the current Warriors are not a run of the mill championship level team. They have an extremely compelling case as the best team ever (a case that’s getting stronger all the time). Concluding that teams like this year’s Rockets or last years Cavs (sporting Kyrie+Love as huge defensive weaknesses) are structurally flawed because they can’t beat these Warriors is incorrect in my view. Both of those teams would have been very worthy champions and I think in many years would have won titles convincingly. In a typical era you don’t need to get to the level of these Warriors to be champions. It just so happens that right now there’s an absurdly over-loaded team that everyone gets compared to.

    40. Z-man

      Trae Young is going to be one of the worst defenders in the NBA. He’s destined to become the Enes Kanter version of a PG. I suppose he can evolve into a lethal scorer on a team built to mitigate his deficiencies, but the odds are that he’s going to be targeted for termination every game by opposing offenses.

    41. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The thing is you can never have an Enes Kanter of point guards because center is so much more vital to your defense than point guard is. If your point guard lets his man get by him but KP is back there, it mitigates a lot of the issue. Jack couldn’t stop a car at a red light but KP managed to keep the defense around average, and that was with Kanter logging a bunch of minutes. Steve Nash was also a bad defender but it was Amar’e Stoudemire who got them killed defensively.

      So if Young is a poor defender but he plays the entire useful part of his career next to Frank Ntilikina, you’re still talking about a team that can play elite defense. Think of the 2011 Bulls for reference.

    42. Z-man

      I don’t think the Warriors are overloaded. They have three great players (Steph, Durant, Draymond) and two very good ones (Iggy, Klay). The rest of the team are former bums (McGee, Young) has-been role players (West, Zaza, Livingston) and decent but not special young players (Looney, Bell, McCaw, Cook.)

    43. Ben R

      I think everyone needs to hold off on Young as definitively a terrible defender. He won’t be great but he could be passable. His steal rate is solid and he is a good athlete. His size and wingspan are similar to Paul and Paul is an elite defender. I’m not saying that Young will be anywhere close to Paul defensively but wingspan isn’t the only factor.

      Last year his offensive load was the biggest by any freshman ever. He rested on defense and whether that is fixable is up in the air.

      He will most likely be a bad defender but worst in the NBA is hyperbolic.

    44. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      I can see that teams can get by with one player who scores well but that doesn’t defend well, and competent GMs like Ainge with Irving or Burford with Aldridge have acquired such players, so I don’t rule out Young as a potential pick for the Knicks. But this argument from the press that he’s a good fit with Ntilikina drives me crazy. Why does having one good defender mean you should want a bad defender? If we had a lock down defensive team you could make the case that lousy point guard defense would be ok, but we don’t have that sort of team.

    45. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Jordan Bell isn’t anything special? He had a .641 TS%, .174 WS48, .229 WP48, a 3.7 BPM and 1.2 VORP (i.e. 3.24 wins against replacement, which is absurd for a rookie in 800 minutes) as a rookie. He is the future small-ball 5 for that team and someday will likely make a DPOY case. If not for his ankle injury, he’d be an All-Rookie first-teamer (barring the “but he plays on the Dubs, too easy!” narrative, which is silly since their opponents play most games like they’re in the Finals).

      If all domestic rookies are expected to struggle due to the adjustment of going from a poor, diluted basketball league to the world’s best, how do you explain why one of the best-rated draft prospects had one of the best rookie years in 2018?

      Downplaying hyper-efficient “role players” is a big part of what we (i.e. you) do here, but do you really want to call Bell a decent-not-special player?

    46. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @50

      While I’ve always liked Jordan Bell and was distraught when Chicago sold the pick to Golden State to draft him, there might be a more principled version of the “he plays on the Dubs, too easy” argument re: his production. It’s pretty much been the case that any non 3 point shooting 4/5 that has played with the Warriors (Looney, Javale, Festus, David West, Zaza, Jordan Bell) have all played the best years of their career with the Warriors (or in Bell’s case, had an outlier rookie year with the Warriors), and some even to the point of outlier territory (Javale Mcgee and 37 year David West this year for example.) I think it’s plausible that none of these players would have played nearly as well if they were in, say Washington or some other mediocre team as they would on the Warriors, which has such an array of playmakers and threats at every position that pretty much all you’re asked to do if you’re Javale Mcgee or David West or Jordan Bell is “run every single time and pass it to the lightskinned dudes and the skinny dude”. Not denying the productivity, because it’s obviously there, but I think Jordan Bell would be significantly worse on a team like Chicago than the literally perfect situation for 5s that is the GSW. Even then he’d still be all rookie first team caliber, I think, just not posting an all time great rookie season. But the trend of GSW giving centers years of outlier production is there and I think Bell’s production shouldn’t be evaluated in a vacuum.

      That said, he’s gonna be doing great things for the Warriors for a decade thanks to Chicago. Blech.

    47. djphan

      pg is the one position where size doesn’t matter at all…. in fact… size probably works against a lot of pg prospects…..

      trae isn’t a stupendous defender…. but even if he’s really really bad…. pg is one position where you could get away with it… isaiah thomas and curry are examples of bad to soso defenders who have teammates that pickup the slack….

      that’s not to say he’s a great pick…. but it’s infinitely more important to be good on offense as a pg than a great defender… (read: frank)…. of course you want both… but if you wanted to choose between lillard who’s all offense no defense vs marcus smart or frank…. in a vacuum there’s no universe where you would rather have the latter….

    48. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      I think it’s fair to point out that centers put up career numbers in the Dubs’ system, but I do think there’s something to be said about a savvy coaching staff asking an offense-limited guy to do (essentially) one thing (dunk/crash the boards). There’s another thing to be said about a guy who doesn’t stray from the role and is happy to do so, and that’s Bell.

      His assisted percentage is 73%, similar to others in the same mold (Capela, 81%; Gobert, 77%; D. Jordan, 66%). Like Capela and Gobert, I think he’d be a great player no matter who was throwing the lobs, but it doesn’t hurt to have a team that obviously prefers 3s and layups to mid-range ISO and other weird, archaic forms of NBA offense.

    49. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      Phil is 100% smug and arrogant, there is no getting around that.

      This much is definitely true.

      I guess when you’ve won 13 rings as a player/coach and also played an important role in building the 2nd LA team there’s going to be an issue when utter morons in the media, fans, and players that don’t understand the game well enough to even ask the right questions let alone understand the answers are calling you an idiot and telling you what you are doing wrong.

    50. djphan

      and the whole playing frank at the 2 is a really bad omen… not only does that mean we get the 2nd half version of frank who’s just standing in the corner… but that also means our second best player(th2) is probably spending most of his minutes out of position….

      frank needs to stay at pg… or at least play the majority of his minutes at the 1…. that has by far the highest upside for both him and the roster….

    51. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      Trae Young is going to be one of the worst defenders in the NBA. He’s destined to become the Enes Kanter version of a PG.

      He will be worse than Kanter.

    52. DRed

      Steph Curry can’t stay in front of anyone, but he rebounds well, has good hands, and plays on a team with a bunch of good defensive players and they’ve consistently been one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. Trae is not a good rebounder, but he does get some steals. If he hits on offense he’d be something like a better version of Kemba Walker, which would be a good player to have.

    53. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      I think it’s fair to point out that centers put up career numbers in the Dubs’ system, but I do think there’s something to be said about a savvy coaching staff asking an offense-limited guy to do (essentially) one thing (dunk/crash the boards). There’s another thing to be said about a guy who doesn’t stray from the role and is happy to do so, and that’s Bell.

      Here’s the thing about players like Bell.

      You won’t win a championship or even have a very good team if you have 3 players like Bell. You need high usage efficient scorers like Curry, Durant, and Thompson. When you have enough high usage efficient scoring, then you can find players that defend, rebound, make plays, or score efficiently on low usage to complement them. At a certain point adding more scoring does not help as much as adding players that do something else at an elite level. But until you get to that point, those other players are not going to get you very far. They are the ones that help put you over the top.

      For example, if we can somehow put together a team of 3 reasonably efficient high usage scorers, a player like Frank could have extraordinary value even though right now he’s a huge drag on our offense. Of course if he improves on offense and is one of the three he could be a monster.

    54. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      You won’t win a championship or even have a very good team if you have 3 players like Bell. You need high usage efficient scorers like Curry, Durant, and Thompson. When you have enough high usage efficient scoring, then you can find players that defend, rebound, make plays, or score efficiently on low usage to complement them. At a certain point adding more scoring does not help as much as adding players that do something else at an elite level. But until you get to that point, those other players are not going to get you very far. They are the ones that help put you over the top.

      So let me get this straight:

      You need scorers, unless you have them already.
      You need role players, unless you have them already.

      Okay, checks out.

    55. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      You can get away with 1 weak link on defense, but once there are 2 of them things often seem to deteriorate fairly rapidly. Unless you are Nash, Curry, Harden or some other super elite offensive player, you are making it more difficult to build a top team with a weak link like that on the court. That goes double now because teams game plan to attack the weak links. I can’t see Young being worth it.

      I might be way wrong about him, but I think I’d rather go with Burke and Frank or have Burke coming off the bench and start Frank and THJ and select one of the SFs than take Young.

    56. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Michael Porter are going to lead us to the promised land"

      So let me get this straight:

      You need scorers, unless you have them already.
      You need role players, unless you have them already.

      I’m saying the guys you love because they look so good on the models that value low usage efficient scoring and rebounding are not as valuable as the models say. I’d way rather have Klay Thompson knocking down 3s at an incredible rate and defending like a fiend even though the models don’t like him much than Bell even though the models love him. If we had KP and Thompson, we’d be 2/3rds the way to being a serious team. If we added Bell, we’d wouldn’t be noticeably better than we are now. (I’m not advocating paying Thompson the max).

    57. DRed

      Burke is probably a good comp for Young on defense, and he is pretty terrible. Unless Carter falls to 9th we’re going to be picking from a bunch of kids who all have various glaring flaws. I might lean more towards SGA if we’re picking another guard 9th, but I think it’s a reasonable spot to draft Young.

    58. d-mar

      It’s mind boggling how the Celtics look like world beaters at home and total chumps on the road. And somehow Brown and Tatum go from looking like poised youngsters to scared rookies.

    59. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Like djphan, I think it’s very important to play Frank at the 1 next year. Since I’m also meh on Trae Young, I’m really hoping he gets drafted by someone in front of us and hope that MPJr (if healthy and good in workouts, in which case he won’t fall, lol) or Carter falls to us. I’d actually rather have Miles Bridges if it means we avoid drafting a 1 at the expense of Frank, in all honesty. If Trae Young were a can’t miss guy I’d say yeah, sure, but he’s not can’t miss. He’s a pretty volatile prospect, one that’s really hard to read as to outcomes imo.

      Honestly just give me Robert Williams and call it a day if Carter is off the board. That’ll never happen though because our FO isn’t interested in taking the best prospect so much as they are interested in taking a combination of fit and reputation.

    60. Z-man

      Downplaying hyper-efficient “role players” is a big part of what we (i.e. you) do here.

      And drooling over hyper-low-usage rookies based on 800 minutes of rookie play is a big part of what we (i.e.you) do here.

    61. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Must make you really angry to see Andre Drummond lead the league in DBPM, be 9th in VORP, 10th in WS, 2nd in DRB%, 3rd in ORB%, and 2nd in TRB%. It’s almost like these “role players” are really good at basketball.

    62. lavor postell

      Drummond leading the league in DBPM is a perfect example of how publicly available defensive metrics suck ass at evaluating good defensive players for the most part.

    63. Z-man

      Last I checked, Drummond’s usage was 21% (a 4-year low for him), his TS% was .555 and he’s paid the max. So what does that have to do with a rookie who just broke the 800 minute mark on a team that makes JaVale McGee look like a superstar in 600 minutes? Seriously, Jowles, I’m really starting to worry about you.

      (speaking of small sample size, Drummond sure lit it up in his 131 playoff minutes. In a hypothetical playoff game vs. Houston or GSW, I wonder how long it would take for Drummond to get the Enes Kanter treatment…you know, Enes Kanter with the great rebounding stats and super-high TS%…)

    64. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, I’m not even a big fan of Drummond, but how is it his fault that Detroit has been fucking terribly managed for his entire career and got LeBronned in the first round when he did reach the playoffs?

      Capela has been able to stay on the court throughout the playoffs and they are sorta similar players in terms of what they do best, except Capela is a better finisher and sticks to what he’s good much more often. It’s terrible defensive big men that can’t stay on the court, like Enes, not dudes like Drummond.

    65. Z-man

      Capela is far more mobile on the defensive perimeter than Drummond. And up until last year, Drummond was maybe the worst FT shooter in history. I don’t think their games are all that similar.

    66. DRed

      LeBron has been so amazing this playoffs that he scored 44 tonight and it just felt like he was bad because he turned it over too much

    67. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

      Last I checked, Drummond’s usage was 21% (a 4-year low for him), his TS% was .555 and he’s paid the max. So what does that have to do with a rookie who just broke the 800 minute mark on a team that makes JaVale McGee look like a superstar in 600 minutes? Seriously, Jowles, I’m really starting to worry about you.

      You talked a tremendous amount of shit after Drummond’s rookie year, which, I correctly argued, was historically productive. And yet here you are, five years later, spouting the same bullshit about “role players.” I was pretty sure that year after year of being dead-wrong about basketball would do something to your sense of expertise, but, haha, nah?

    68. iserp

      You talked a tremendous amount of shit after Drummond’s rookie year, which, I correctly argued, was historically productive.

      Which you correctly argued according to your own arguments; and I think there has not been any development in those arguments to sway other posters. Perhaps you want to argue that Drummond has shared court with a historically bad team, and a historically bad coach for 6 straight years to cancel his historical greatness.

      For all the flaws that PER has, I put more faith in metric that tells me that Drummond has always been the same player, with a slight increase in performance this year that makes more of his free throws, than a metric that ranked him historically great for two years (as in the best season of a center ever), then average all-star for three years, then historically great again.

    69. Z-man

      Right, Jowles bases his conclusions on whatever metric suits his narrative, often using the pretty much defunct Boxscoregeeks.com WP48 bullshit that says Clint Capela had a more productive year than LeBron James and Enes Kanter is the 6th most productive guy in the NBA.

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