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Sunday, May 20, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.05.07)

  • [NYDN] Can David Fizdale stop the Knicks’ cycle of ruining coaches?
    (Sunday, May 06, 2018 6:16:21 AM)

    The Knicks have a knack for end coaching careers.

  • [NY Newsday] New York coaching puzzle is nearly complete
    (Monday, May 07, 2018 6:02:00 AM)

    We are almost there, people! The emergency redecoration of metropolitan area coaches’ offices has one last makeover left on the agenda: a new head coach for the Rangers.

  • [NYPost] Emmanuel Mudiay is all-in on Knicks’ coaching change
    (Sunday, May 06, 2018 6:29:47 PM)

    Knicks point guard Emmanuel Mudiay has his third head coach in three months. Instead of lamenting the constant change, Mudiay sounds genuinely pumped about David Fizdale. Mudiay’s two months with former Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek didn’t go smoothly, though he places no blame. Mudiay said he has chatted up the personable Fizdale a handful of…

  • [NYPost] Confidant: Why Knicks job intrigued David Fizdale so much
    (Sunday, May 06, 2018 2:37:19 PM)

    If the Knicks wanted a coach who “operates outside the margin,” they have their man in David Fizdale. So says former Nets guard Elliot Perry, a Fizdale confidant who has spent the past 10 seasons as a radio broadcaster for the Grizzlies. Fizdale will be introduced as the new Knicks coach at a press conference…

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Playoffs: Kevin Durant Stops Worrying, and Can’t Stop Scoring
    (Monday, May 07, 2018 3:07:45 AM)

    The Golden State Warriors rolled to an easy win over the New Orleans Pelicans and the Houston Rockets beat the Utah Jazz.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Boston’s Al Horford Has Enough Experience for His Entire Team
    (Sunday, May 06, 2018 10:28:04 PM)

    The Celtics forward put on a display of the myriad ways his experience helps as he guided a roster of young players to an overtime victory in Game 3.

  • 100 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.05.07)

    1. ProjectKnicks

      So…
      Is Fizdale supposed to lose a lot and look totally inept (tank-friendly) or is he supposed to try to win as much as the roster allows and look like a good coach (tank-averse)?

      I’m 100% opposed to tanking. What’s the point of ‘winning’ when you know it’s not true because you cheated? (even though I know many chess-playing people who would sell their mother for a checkmate; most chess players, contrary to public belief, are truly dumb and dishonest, but that’s a conversation for another place).

    2. mase

      He is hard to watch. Too much iso too!
      Houston is boring. They act like they are exciting basketball and all but they are not. GS series will be over in 5 games.
      Boston Cleveland might go 7 though.

    3. ProjectKnicks

      Houston is boring. They act like they are exciting basketball and all but they are not. GS series will be over in 5 games.

      Even though I’ll be rooting for GS, there is a good chance Houston might win. Golden State has lost a lot of the player movement, the cutting. Their defense fluctuates from very good to very bad, Draymond Green’s game has fallen off a bit, as has Iguodala’s. GS still is, at least on paper, the best roster in the NBA, but Houston has played better this season.

      I expect the de-facto NBA Finals to be longer than 5 games.

    4. Brian Cronin

      Is Fizdale supposed to lose a lot and look totally inept

      Man, that Rick Carlisle guy really sucks. He tanked this year. I guess he’s just inept.

      Or, tanking is a logical thing that nearly everyone does when it makes sense, which it clearly does for the 2018-19 Knicks.

    5. Brian Cronin

      That said, with this organization, I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t tank.

      I don’t think that has anything to do with Fizdale, per se, but the organization itself. He’s not a moron. He’ll follow the lead of his bosses. If they want him to tank, he’ll tank. It’s not like he’s going to, like, go rogue or anything like that. Let’s hope that the organization knows when to tank.

    6. ProjectKnicks

      Man, that Rick Carlisle guy really sucks. He tanked this year. I guess he’s just inept.

      You know very well that’s going to be the perception here in NY.

      Or, tanking is a logical thing that everyone does when it makes sense, which it clearly does for the 2018-19 Knicks.

      It does make sense – just not as satisfying as winning in an honest manner. But, yes, virtually every team does it.

      My point is that Fizdale might be gone after a couple of years of losing, even if intentional. Such is the nature of his job.

    7. ess-dog

      I think when your “star” is injured and your hope lies in testing out a bunch of young guys in extended minutes, that’s pretty much the optimal time to tank. Call me crazy.

    8. Brian Cronin

      Also, if Fizdale is just such a good coach that even if the organization strips away the veterans, he still manages to make them a good team, then we can certainly live with that. Tanking really just means getting rid of anyone who isn’t going to be part of the future of the team. Doing that typically means that you will suck. If you do suck, good for you. If you somehow don’t suck, good for you, as well.

    9. ProjectKnicks

      Tanking is a huge gamble that fails more often than it succeeds. Not necessarily the best or only strategy for a team in the Knicks’ situation.

    10. lavor postell

      @BC

      Exactly! I’m not a proponent of tanking intentionally, which I know isn’t a popular opinion on this board, but I’m not a fan of a team in our situation riding vets for heavy minutes either. Just prioritize minutes for the younger guys on the roster and whether we end up being totally garbage or as a mid-lottery team I think most people will be fine with that.

    11. ProjectKnicks

      Tanking really just means getting rid of anyone who isn’t going to be part of the future of the team. Doing that typically means that you will suck. If you do suck, good for you. If you somehow don’t suck, good for you, as well.

      I don’t think that’s what tanking is. That’s a total rebuild – I’m all for it.

      Tanking is intentionally losing to get better draft opportunities.

    12. djphan

      they’re not gonna have a choice in the tanking dept… we were pretty bad without kp and not having koq will hurt also…. so we can try to win but it’s not going to amount to much…

    13. bockadoo

      @10 I think that is a VERSION of tanking, the one I like the best – most honest, classy.

    14. Bruno Almeida

      But wasn’t what Philly did simply trading away veterans and players who had no place for their future?

      For all we know nobody on the Sixers organization ever told players or coaches to lose games on purpose, they just focused on young guys and gambles (which lead them to dudes like McConnell, Covington and Holmes) and didn’t sign veterans who wouldn’t be a part of their future plans. How is it any worse in a moral standpoint?

    15. ProjectKnicks

      But wasn’t what Philly did simply trading away veterans and players who had no place for their future?

      For all we know nobody on the Sixers organization ever told players or coaches to lose games on purpose, they just focused on young guys and gambles (which lead them to dudes like McConnell, Covington and Holmes) and didn’t sign veterans who wouldn’t be a part of their future plans.

      For all we know, it’s possible nobody has ever tanked!

    16. Bruno Almeida

      Do you have any indication that players and / or coaches with the Sixers organization were told to intentionally lose games or are you just intent on taking some sort of moral high ground?

    17. swiftandabundant

      Its actually an interesting thing to think about. Did Philly ever actually “tank.” I mean we know they traded away all their vets from their Iggy core before they started the process. And they did pick players in the draft who were injured or who had overlapping skills/positions both to get the best talent but also to extend the window of their rebuild…but did they ever intentionally play bad players or players that they never thought would be a part of the team in order to lose? Did they ever pull players out of games who were hot or not play a player who was playing well in order to insure the loss?

      This is the harder thing to prove in the NBA but I think is really important. I think most people who rail against tanking have no problem with a youth movement rebuild. Its the idea of making that a 5 year process and intentionally playing bad players along the way in order to maximize losses that doesn’t sit well. For the Knicks this year I would have had no problem with Frank getting more minutes earlier in the season or Burke being called up earlier but if Frank is going off in a game and gets sat because the game is close and we want to lose the game…that’s a problem for me.

      With Fizdale…I do not think we can expect coaches to tank or intentionally lose. The fact is that even if people know a team is tanking…the coach is the one who takes the biggest hit to his reputation and legacy. At the end of the day his record as a coach is the biggest thing a coach has to stand on when he’s applying for other jobs. Think about if you have a job on your resume where you only worked there for 3 months before you quit or got fired. When you interview for another job, the only thing that recruiter sees is that you didn’t work for a long time at that job. You can explain why that was the case and maybe the recruiter will believe you but its a wall you have to climb over that you’d rather not if you didn’t have to.

    18. kevin5318

      Tanking doesn’t have a strict definition so people can twist and turn it to fit their narrative.

    19. ProjectKnicks

      Do you have any indication that players and / or coaches with the Sixers organization were told to intentionally lose games or are you just intent on taking some sort of moral high ground?

      Are you going to play Cinderella and pretend you don’t believe Philly tanked?

    20. MSA

      Do you have any indication that players and / or coaches with the Sixers organization were told to intentionally lose games or are you just intent on taking some sort of moral high ground?

      I remember a game against us, maybe in the end of the 2016-17 season, where Tiago Splitter started to shot 3PTs every time he got the ball. For his whole career until that day he shot only like 8 times or something.

      If that’s not trying to intentionally losing, I don’t know what it is.

    21. ProjectKnicks

      After years of daily talk about the need for tanking, talking about how the Knicks were not tanking ‘correctly’, talking about how Philly was tanking, how San Antonio tanked into Tim Duncan, etc., all of a sudden, there is no evidence anyone ever tanked!!!!

      How dishonest can some of my fellow Knickerbloggers be?

      C’mon, guys…let’s keep the conversation honest.

    22. ProjectKnicks

      With Fizdale…I do not think we can expect coaches to tank or intentionally lose. The fact is that even if people know a team is tanking…the coach is the one who takes the biggest hit to his reputation and legacy. At the end of the day his record as a coach is the biggest thing a coach has to stand on when he’s applying for other jobs. Think about if you have a job on your resume where you only worked there for 3 months before you quit or got fired. When you interview for another job, the only thing that recruiter sees is that you didn’t work for a long time at that job. You can explain why that was the case and maybe the recruiter will believe you but its a wall you have to climb over that you’d rather not if you didn’t have to.

      Exactly. That was the intent of my initial post. Is the guy supposed to hurt his professional reputation to help the Knicks tank? Is that even good for the team vs getting the most he can out of the young players?

      To me, at least, those are very relevant and interesting questions.

    23. ClashFan

      We’re arguing semantics here, again. “Tank” or “rebuild?”

      And, “tanking” as I see it is something that a front office does. It does not necessarily involve a coach or players throwing games. The FO removes vets who have no future on the team for the best young player/draft assets possible. Keep young players, play them, and evaluate. Keep the young players who you think could develop into something special (at least a good rotation player), and deal off those that you don’t, again, to try to acquire future assets.

      The Knicks absolutely should “tank” this coming season. Try to trade Lee. Try to trade Kanter if he opts in. Do NOT sign or resign vets like Beasley, even to cheap one year deals. Maybe keep one token vet for “leadership” (LT could fulfill that role, but I’d still unload him for a 2nd round pick if possible).

      FWIW, I’m cynical about the current FO recognizing this. If they did, they would have somehow dealt OQ and Lee for whatever and kept Willy before the trading deadline. But, perhaps they viewed Willy as not a good future rotation player, so moved him for picks. So be it, but I think they were wrong on him.

    24. Bruno Almeida

      @22

      looking at the game log, it was the last game of the season and he attempted 12 shots in 22 minutes, going 1 for 3 on 3 pointers, it was the unforgettable Ndour game, the one that kickstarted the great winning culture movement in New York… the Knicks played future rotation guys Marshall Plumlee, Sasha Vujacic, Chasson Randle and Maurice Ndour 20+ minutes

      Nope, still not convinced.

      I just hate when people take this moral high ground with Philly when shady shit happens all the time in tbe NBA and no one cares. The Mavs and the Bulls finished the season resting their damn rookies this year to improve their lottery seeding and yet Philly is the team that morally destroyed the beautiful honor of the National Basketball Association business.

    25. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      My prediction.

      I think the chances of the Knicks tanking right from the start of the season are close to 0%.

      They are going to do what they did last year with the possible exception of moving someone like Lee, Thomas, or Noah if a deal makes sense. They are going to play players based on merit and try to win as many games as they can with what they have and what they add in the off season.

      The more interesting question is what they do with KP.

      Let’s just say he’s ready to play at the end of December. They have a choice.

      1. They can play him, continue his development, see how he fits with the other young players, get a feel for what 2019 is going to look like, and win even more games.

      2. Take a more conservative approach, sit him out the entire year, and ultimately go into all out tank mode down the stretch like they did this past year.

      That’s where it gets tricky.

      If the goal is to sign free agents in 2019, they pretty much have to play KP when he gets cleared and try to finish off the season well. That way, they can make the case to free agents in 2019 that the team is on the upswing and with another summer of development and couple of free agents the future is bright. If they get off poorly (as expected unless we get a surprise), sit out KP the whole season, and go into all out tank mode down the stretch, no one is going to come here in 2019.

    26. ClashFan

      @26
      Yeah, maybe tanking is a slightly more extreme version of rebuilding.

      When the military attacks a target and causes great damage to it, has it been “neutralized” or “destroyed?” Should I buy a “used” or “pre-owned” car? Etc.

      So, use the nicer sounding word if you wish. Same basic idea.

    27. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      I’m 100% opposed to tanking. What’s the point of ‘winning’ when you know it’s not true because you cheated?

      Wut

    28. kevin5318

      If the goal is to sign free agents in 2019, they pretty much have to play KP when he gets cleared and try to finish off the season well. That way, they can make the case to free agents in 2019 that the team is on the upswing and with another summer of development and couple of free agents the future is bright. If they get off poorly (as expected), sit out KP the whole season, and go into all out tank mode down the stretch, no one is going to come here in 2019.

      I find it hard to believe that FA’s will be looking at us after an inevitable <30 win season next year(with or without KP). We should be looking at the 2020/21 off seasons where we'll hopefully be coming off a playoff appearance or two.

      The 2021 class has Beal, Porter Jr., Gobert, AD, Beal, Giannis and Oladipo.

    29. MSA

      the Knicks played future rotation guys Marshall Plumlee, Sasha Vujacic, Chasson Randle and Maurice Ndour 20+ minutes

      The fact that the Knicks were trying to lose too doesn’t mean that they weren’t tanking. And c’mon, Tiago Splitter shotting 3s and taking almost 20 shots per 36?

      2. Take a more conservative approach, sit him out the entire year, and ultimately go into tank mode down the stretch like they did this past year.

      There is 0% chance of KP sitting the whole year. It’s a contract year for him and he would never accept it.

    30. lavor postell

      I think you ease KP back into the rotation in January on a minutes limit and no B2Bs.

    31. kevin5318

      KP’s getting maxed regardless but yeah he’s gonna want to play.

      On the other hand it would be funny if we drafted Mo Bamba who plays well and lowers KP’s asking price.

    32. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      I find it hard to believe that FA’s will be looking at us after an inevitable <30 win season next year(with or without KP). We should be looking at the 2020/21 off seasons where we'll hopefully be coming off a playoff appearance or two.

      The stated plan includes signing free agents in 2019.

      I don’t think what the team does before KP comes back will have much bearing on whether free agents consider us. If KP comes back and he, Hardaway, Frank, our draft pick, Dotson, etc.. are playing .500 or better ball down the stretch, players will want to come. If KP dos not come back or he comes back and he and the team look bad, no one is going to come.

      I just don’t know how next season is going to go. We don’t know who we are going to draft, how some of young players are going to come back after the summer, when KP is going to come back, are we bringing back KOQ etc..

    33. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      There is 0% chance of KP sitting the whole year. It’s a contract year for him and he would never accept it.

      That makes sense to me, but my “question” is more about whether KP and the team look good enough before the end of the season in order to attract free agents in 2019 and less about whether KP eventually gets cleared and plays some minutes at some point. If they wait until later and go really slow, they are going to have a tougher time selling their plan in 2019.

    34. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      To be clear, I’m not advocating anything. I’m just pointing out that the plan is to sign free agents in 2019. To be able to do that KP is going to have to come back and they are going to have to be playing well down the stretch. That much I think they know. So it’s hard for me to see them going into all out tank mode unless KP can’t come back or they’ve changed their plans about 2019.

    35. GHenman

      Perry has made is view on “tanking” pretty clear, so they’re not going to just dump players and hope for a high draft pick. There are a only a few decisions to make after the draft. I think they should try to keep O’Quinn if possible. Keeping Beasley doesn’t make much sense for us or him. Lee has to go or we’re going to have a Willy situation at 2/3. I would try to sign Porzingis and encourage him to take his time rehabbing.

    36. Bruno Almeida

      @29

      Are you able to hold a discussion or you just want to troll really?

      I am pro tanking, I have always been and will continue to be until the NBA stops rewarding tanking as a viable rebuilding alternative. I wanted the Knicks to play Mudiay 48 minutes every game and start me and you at the frontcourt so we could have lost every single remaining game. I don’t care about moral platitudes of winning the right way when I root for one of the most morally bankrupt organizations in pro sports ever.

      What I’m going against is this stupid morally charged argument that tanking is somehow cheating (when it’s literally supported by the rules) and that Philly destroyed the integrity of the game. They did what every team has done in stretches, give minutes to shit players and lose. They just managed to do it correctly and are reaping the benefits of it, just like no one will remember the Mavs sitting every rotation player down the stretch to leapfrog Atlanta down the standings or how Chicago shut down every player with an ounce of talent they had to keep losing and keep up with the Nets. Just like the Knicks playing Melo 20 minutes and Marshall Plumlee 28 in a meaningless last game of the season (and still somehow winning because Knicks).

    37. MBunge

      I just hate when people take this moral high ground with Philly

      Philly tanked for four straight seasons, which I think is at least twice as long as anyone else in the history of the league. And Philly didn’t just tear the team down and they try to build it back up. They repeatedly got rid of players over the course of several years who were not aging vets and who were not on expensive contracts simply to try and be as terrible as possible.

      Which is why after four years of tanking and five years of “The Process” we see Philly dependent on 31-year-old Marco Bellineli and 33-year-old JJ Redick to actually win games.

      Mike

    38. MBunge

      What I’m going against is this stupid morally charged argument that tanking is somehow cheating (when it’s literally supported by the rules) and that Philly destroyed the integrity of the game.

      This is like Bill Clinton arguing over the definition of the word “is.”

      I don’t know if anyone says tanking is cheating. It does take a big steaming dump on the concepts of sportsmanship and competition. It’s also a strategy that doesn’t actually have, by all available evidence, a greater record of success than any other competent approach to team-building. And it absolutely is a strategy that WILL harm the NBA if more teams start following Philly’s example.

      Mike

    39. JK47

      What is “tanking?”
      What is a “tweener?”

      Knickerblogger, home for all of your tedious semantic debates.

      I guess this is what happens when your team floats adrift in pointless mediocrity for two decades.

    40. nicos

      Lee has to go or we’re going to have a Willy situation at 2/3.

      I’m looking forward to the Frank, Baker, Dotson, Lee, Hardaway starting lineup with Mikal Bridges and Troy Williams as the first guys off of the bench.

    41. Owen

      These are the debates we deserve for sticking with the Knicks for 20 years while they never tanked.

    42. Hubert

      I think teams like Chicago and Dallas took it to new levels this year. Even in Philadelphia, the players were trying and the coach didn’t sabotage wins. The front office played a numbers game, employing as many speculative prospects as possible and using pump-and-dump strategies. But you got the feeling they were really looking for value. TJ McConnell and Robert Covington developed from the minutes they got, and Michael Carter-Williams netted Philadelphia the 10th pick in this year’s draft.

      This is the first year I ever watched the NBA and thought the coach was actively working to lose the game he was playing based on instructions from the GM/owner. And the Bulls were playing players who they know can’t play in this league. They weren’t looking for the next Robert Covington when they played Cameron Payne.

      In theory, I don’t ever want to see the Knicks do that. It really was loathsome to watch. But if Silver is going to sit on his ass and do nothing, then we have no choice. This is like the steroids issue in baseball. Players had to take them to keep up. So we’ll have to do it, too, since now it’s going to be the way, thanks to Silver’s inaction.

    43. Jack Bauer

      Since when is tanking cheating? There is no doubt the Knicks should trade away or get rid of most if not all of the veterans who will not be here in 2-3 years and play the young guys. Not doing this would be epically stupid for a lot of reasons.

    44. Bruno Almeida

      @47

      Exactly. Philly even found players who would very likely start for our own team in those seasons in Covington and McConnell. It is the way the league works for bottom feeders, and it’s stupid not do it.

    45. Hubert

      KP’s getting maxed regardless

      I’m going to keep banging the drum on this…

      Unless he comes back in January and averages 30-12-4-4 I can’t believe anyone running a team would look at his four year body of work and say “this guy deserves 5 years, 25%”.

      I know it’s never smart to bet on NBA GMs doing the right thing, and I know it’s almost idiotic to expect a Knicks GM to do the right thing. I know I should know better than to say this, but I maintain that KP not being worth a max contract is so obvious and self-evident that even we can’t screw that up.

    46. kevin5318

      @wojespn
      Following Following @wojespn
      More
      Source: Stan Van Gundy and the Pistons have parted ways.

    47. GianaDani

      Stop the nonsense, please. 2nd contract is so cheap that everyone gets max. KP is a 25% player. He’s a CP3 type clean cut franchise player.

    48. Brian Cronin

      For better or for worse (this is the Knicks, so likely worse), the Knicks probably will max KP out if he returns healthy. It’s debatable whether they should, but they likely will.

    49. Bruno Almeida

      He really isn’t. His defense is up to par, but the offensive production is definitely 100% not max contract worthy.

      So Detroit finally parted ways with SVG, I expected them to wait until the middle of next season to see what the Blake addition gives them. I guess the situation is so plainly bad they didn’t feel the need.

    50. Bruno Almeida

      @53

      I would probably take Charlotte as a coach. If they do trade Kemba as it seems likely they at least have their own draft picks going forward and can add some young talent, plus their terrible contracts expire earlier. Detroit is a complete mess, they’re capped through the end of 2020 and have no pick in 2018.

    51. ClashFan

      Detroit is a candidate to go full bore King Tiger Tank mode for the next few years. Er, excuse me, rebuild mode…

      Is Hinkie available?

    52. geo

      nice to see some other franchise cratering…

      win wise – exactly what does tanking equate to: 20 wins, 30 wins, 15 wins…

      burke, frank, th2, lee, kanter, dotson, kornet, and 20 games of kp should equal at least 25 wins…

      never underestimate just how bad some of the “competition” will be next season…

      not likely we make it to 35 wins next year…

      maybe will make it to the seventh worse team in the league next year…

      hmmmm, seems as though our resident chess aficionados weren’t biting on no bait today…

      hahahahahaha…

    53. Hubert

      I’ve only read the headline and it was enough to make me cringe. I almost feel bad sharing this with DRed.

      Hail to the Chief: How Brad Stevens Has Stopped the Sixers

      Philly was on a collision course with history. Until it ran into the President.

      https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/7/17326080/brad-stevens-celtics-sixers

      Aside: I’m having a hard time writing off the Sixers. I think if they win tonight they can come all the way back. It would be nice if their coach made *some* adjustments instead of continually having his pants pulled down.

    54. Hubert

      My god…. this is the worst article I’ve ever read in my life. The author is claiming that if you did a draft of all players and coaches, Stevens is going to get drafted ahead of all stars:

      Obviously, players like LeBron James, Steph Curry, James Harden, Giannis, Anthony Davis, and Kevin Durant would be selected first. And rising stars like Embiid, Karl-Anthony Towns, and Simmons would go ahead of Stevens, too. But are you really taking DeMar DeRozan ahead of Stevens? I don’t think so.

      I’d take Stevens over impressive young players like Jaylen Brown and Brandon Ingram, which means he’s ahead of high lottery picks. I’d take Stevens over the Jrue Holidays and Steven Adamses of the world, which automatically puts his value in the $20 million range. I’d take Stevens over aging stars like Chris Paul and injured ones like DeMarcus Cousins.

    55. Ben R

      Tanking becomes cheating when you sit players mid-game who are playing well to simply lose, when you sit young promising players with fake ailments so you can start worse players you have no intention of keeping. What Chicago and Dallas did down the stretch was cheating, that’s why they were warned. Just because the commissioner has no teeth doesn’t make the act not wrong.

      What Philly did, for the most part, was not cheating and a great move. They might have cheated in individual games but I don’t know, but the act of signing youth and trading away every vet was not cheating and really smart. With that said what Philly did is not repeatable. They were able to build this team because three times the best player available in the draft was hurt and missed their rookie, or first two seasons, extending their ability to stay bad and they were also the beneficiaries of one of the worst trades in NBA history with the Kings.

    56. Hubert

      Stop the nonsense, please. 2nd contract is so cheap that everyone gets max.

      Second contracts are not cheap any more. Ask Minnesota.

      He’s a CP3 type clean cut franchise player.

      I thought you said to stop the nonsense.

    57. Hubert

      The irony of that article you could make a decent case that, over the last 8 years, Danny Ainge has been more valuable than all but the top tier of players in the league. But Stevens? Give me a break.

    58. Ntilakilla

      I’m 100% opposed to tanking. What’s the point of ‘winning’ when you know it’s not true because you cheated?

      This is the exact same point that Cobra Kai makes by the ends of its season finale. All of you who loved the first Karate Kid movie absolutely HAVE to see this series. It brilliantly deconstructs the original film in a very novel way by making the villain the hero of his own story.

    59. GHenman

      There is nothing more unethical is sports than throwing a game. I can’t believe anyone would seriously condone the Knicks doing that.

    60. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      The story of Philly getting good gets reduced to “tanking”, or whatever you want to call it. But Philadelphia made some smart trades too. For example, they traded a rookie of the year for a first round pick (a trade that was widely derided at the time but proved to be a good one over time) and got a first round pick for taking on McGee’ contract.

    61. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      With that said what Philly did is not repeatable. They were able to build this team because three times the best player available in the draft was hurt and missed their rookie, or first two seasons, extending their ability to stay bad and they were also the beneficiaries of one of the worst trades in NBA history with the Kings.

      +1

    62. thenoblefacehumper

      Seems like a lot of people are overcomplicating what I think is ultimately a simple concept.

      The most optimal form of “tanking” is exactly what Philly did. It was essentially one long audition while the team racked up high lottery picks. For the most part, they thought there was a non-zero chance that everyone on their roster could be a part of their future.

      Since undrafted free agents, second round picks, and waiver wire types tend to not be wildly productive, Philly was very bad and picked pretty highly in the draft. The 3-4 intriguing players from that time period were locked up on team-friendly deals to surround the eventual high picks, while the rest just went by the wayside and it didn’t matter because they cost anything to acquire. They didn’t waste any roster spots on the Courtney Lees of the world.

      Meanwhile they stayed active on the cap space rental market until they were ready to field a competitive team. They had some lucky breaks to be sure but really they just followed the logic of the win curve and, lo and behold, decades of empirical data wasn’t wrong!

    63. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      I don’t think the issues with maxing KP are his talent or likely production level going forward. I think it’s entirely a matter of injury risk. If it becomes a constant problem, a max contract could turn into a disaster.

      I’ve been of the opinion that most of his injuries (including the ones that looked like freak accidents) have a lot to do with the fact that he’s so weak. His arms and legs are like toothpicks. Even normal contact sends him flying and bends things that should be resistant to average contact. His ankles, knees, wrists, elbows, shoulders, and back are all weaker than they should be for a guy banging with much stronger men. We sort of have to hope that when he comes back with an extra 15 pounds, he’s going to come back a lot stronger and not get hurt so easily.

    64. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and one of the Bridges will take us to the promised land"

      The Blake Griffin contract has to be one of the worst in the NBA right now. The Pistons took that mess on and actually paid the Clippers for the privilege of doing it. They gave up a player that is or will arguably be the better player and also gave up a first round pick. Griffin is obviously a lot better than Bargnani, but it’s the same kind of thing. If you take on a bad contract (Bargs or Griffin) you are the one that’s supposed to get paid. It’s comically bad to be paying. I always thought Stan was a pretty good coach, but he was clearly way out of his league when it came to making personnel moves.

    65. DRed

      For the record, I think Stevens is probably a good coach, but his Celtics teams have been more talented than the lamestream media realizes, and he gets lionized because he’s a nerdy looking white dude, which for some reason is the sports medias platonic ideal of a coach.

    66. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      I think the Celtics have a lot of two way players and that makes a big difference in the playoffs. Horford can defend Embiid and can score too, and that makes Boston’s matchup with Philadelphia much better. Miami didn’t really have anyone to do that. Toronto, on the other hand seems to be suffering because they don’t have enough defense.

    67. Brian Cronin

      (a trade that was widely derided at the time but proved to be a good one over time

      That trade was only derided by morons. I remember here, we talked about how amazing of a move it was. The derided part of that deal was how the Suns gave up a first rounder to get Brandon Knight (?!) when they already had Dragic and Bledsoe!

    68. Brian Cronin

      For the record, I think Stevens is probably a good coach, but his Celtics teams have been more talented than the lamestream media realizes, and he gets lionized because he’s a nerdy looking white dude, which for some reason is the sports medias platonic ideal of a coach.

      Yeah, you read these articles and holy shit, the racial thing is glaring.

    69. Brian Cronin

      Meanwhile they stayed active on the cap space rental market until they were ready to field a competitive team. They had some lucky breaks to be sure but really they just followed the logic of the win curve and, lo and behold, decades of empirical data wasn’t wrong!

      It’s just so staggering how many teams, like the Knicks, just can’t fathom the idea of the win curve. Like the Magic trading Oladipo for Serge Ibaka. Good golly, people!!

    70. Bruno Almeida

      While I think the whole “Stevens is a god” narrative is indeed a major overreaction by the media for not only basketball reasons, he, or his entire coaching staff, does deserve a lot of credit for the developmental side of things. Tatum, Brown, even Rozier are obviously talented players, but to be performing at this level this early in their careers when most rookies and 2 year players simply suck probably has something to do with good coaching.

      I don’t think he’s a coaching master thst shut down Philly or anything, or that the Celtics are much less talented than the Sixers as the media claims, but clearly he’s doing something right when different young and veteran players fit so well together in not so much time with rotations constantly changing and a lot of roster turnout.

    71. d-mar

      Jeez, what do the Raptors do now? Blow the whole thing up? Come back next year with the same crew and get spanked in the playoffs again?

      Ujiri’s job just got a whole lot more complicated.

    72. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      That trade was only derided by morons. I remember here, we talked about how amazing of a move it was. The derided part of that deal was how the Suns gave up a first rounder to get Brandon Knight (?!) when they already had Dragic and Bledsoe!

      I also thought it was a good trade at the time. But it took a lot of balls to make it and lots of the press were shocked and didn’t understand why you would trade a rookie of the year for what Philly got. I think Philadelphia fans generally thought they were losing an exciting prospect. Of course there were some commentators that liked the deal, but they weren’t really mainstream press, as I recall. Anyway, the fact that Hinkie made some “amazing” moves that weren’t just losing and drafting supports my argument that smart GMing added to the tank.

    73. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      It’s not just that Toronto lost, it’s that they got swept and some of the games weren’t close. I predict another coaching vacancy. From a GM point of view, I would consider going after Kawhi if I were them.

    74. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      If I’m Toronto I’m mortgaging the future if I can get my hands on Kawhi Leonard and keep Lowry and DeRozan. Unprotected 1st round picks, OG Anunoby, Fred Van Vleet, whatever. The Raptors are really close and could use an elite level talent like Kawhi Leonard.

    75. dtrickey

      I would potentially go the other way and look to off-load DeRozan. I think that suggestion was raised on yesterday’s thread. I doubt they do it considering the fan lead revolt that would likely happen.

    76. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      Suppose, for example, San Antonio traded Leonard and Mills for Kyle Lowry. The trade works in the trade machine and seems roughly fair to me. I think it might make both teams better.

    77. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t know if Gregg Popovich would trade for Kyle Lowry considering they have Dejounte Murray in the fold, but I could see the intrigue there for sure. I just want to see Toronto actually have a chance even though we play in the same division as them. Anything is better than Boston.

    78. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      DeRozan is 28 and Lowry is 32, so I think trading Lowry makes more sense than trading Derozan.

    79. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, I think it kinda starts and ends with DeRozan. He has stalled in his development and has never managed to find a way to be a more efficient scorer, and he’s never been much of a defender in the first place. Lowry is better but also older and thus probably less valuable in terms of a trade.

      If I’m Ujiri I’m looking to make a DeRozan deal while finding a way to unload Ibaka’s contract. If Leonard is healthy and available he would be the ideal target for sure, a team with Lowry, Wright / Anunoby, Leonard, Siakam and Valanciunas is much scarier to me than what Toronto has right now.

    80. Brian Cronin

      Budz would fit Toronto well. But yeah, I legitimately have no idea what they should do next. It’s a really tough situation there. I agree that Kawhi would fit well, but A. I don’t see them having the pieces to get Kawhi and B. If Kawhi hates playing in San Antonio, why would he like playing in Toronto?

    81. TheOakmanCometh

      Very tough offseason decision for Toronto. Breaking up a 60-win team is no easy call. They have to think about fan loyalty and attendance. On the other hand, they will obviously never ever beat LeBron. But if they change something, what should they change? There are no obvious weak links in the team, nor anyone with tremendous trade value. What could they get for Lowry, DeRozan, Valanciunas, or Ibaka that would make them a better team next year?

    82. Bruno Almeida

      The problem is that they’re on a clock. Lowry is 31 and DeRozan is 28, they won 60 games but if they can’t get past LeBron and yet do nothing about it they’ll just become the next Hawks, slowly declining as they can’t keep their depth because of re-signings and with their stars fading.

      They have to do something now or they’re screwed. I think DeRozan’s reputation around the league is still good enough that he would fetch a good return from a team wanting a star, let’s say someone like the Clippers, Lakers, Bucks, even the Nuggets or (please no) the Knicks. Then they could turn those assets plus some of the valuable young players they have into a star or other pieces.

      I don’t think they’ll do it as DeRozan is so beloved in Toronto but I can’t see any way a team can contend with LeBron teams if DeRozan is your main usage guy.

    83. nicos

      Given how much money both Lowry and DeRozan have left on their contracts it’s tough to see them getting much of anything other than other teams problems in return. Lowry has two years left at 30m+ per and DeRozan has 2 plus a player options at around 28 per. Both guys have struggled enough in the playoffs that it’s tough to see another team thinking one or the other is going to put them over the top. Add to that the fact that Toronto has enough young talent that even if you do trade those guys you’re probably not going to wind up with a high lottery pick to rebuild around and I’m guessing that they just fire Casey and hope LBJ takes his talents to L.A. so they can fight it out with Philly and Boston.

    84. Glew

      Anyone get a load of our roster? It’s not really our choice to tank or not..hopefully he just plays/develops some of the Young’s instead of bury them on the bench and using a quick leash if they make a mistake

    85. Bruno Almeida

      My reasoning for a DeRozan trade is that Blake Griffin, who’s probably a worse player and has a much worse contract just got traded for the 12th overall pick + Bradley, Harris and Boban, which is a pretty good haul. Granted it happened because of Detroit’s stupidity, but I would say there’s plenty of teams out there that would want DeRozan still.

    86. TheOakmanCometh

      All it takes is one dope, so you never say never. But there aren’t that many dumb GMs left in the league with SVG getting canned. Hard to see someone paying a premium for DeRozan. He doesn’t even have the star power of a Griffin.

      Let’s say LAL strikes out in free agency and is open to a DeRozan trade. What would they offer for him?

    87. Bruno Almeida

      The Lakers are the perfect match because they’ll have so much cap space that they can take DeRozan’s salary without matching anything. I’m not thinking about a premium, but I could see them offering something like Kuzma + sign and trade Randle + a protected future first for him, for example, with those pieces serving as assets + guys like Poeltl or Wright to trade for other players. The Clippers could offer Gallinari plus either Lou Williams or Beverley + filler + picks.

      I’m just throwing out ideas of what could potentially happen, as I think DeRozan definitely has a market and Toronto has to make a move to be any relevant in the east.

    88. JK47

      All it takes is one dope, so you never say never. But there aren’t that many dumb GMs left in the league with SVG getting canned.

      Who was the guy who gave 4/71 to Tim Hardaway Jr? Get that guy on the phone.

    89. Chazz79

      I am from Germany anf for example in our highest soccer league the worst 2 teams must go one leage down. So we dont reward the worst teams, the must go down, because they are not good enough to be in the best league. So I know, you have a different system. But I think maybe they should reward the 9th seed with high pics. Tanking sucks really!!! Should be a good mix, of course the worst teams, should have a high pick, but not considered for the first picks maybe onlye up to 5% in Lottery. Something like that, it is only an idea. But tanking is cheating, I hate to watch the Knicks tanking and then making bad draft picks on top. It is cheating the ppl who pays money home, in MSG, it is wasting time. And not much player developoment at all on the tanking roster. Maybe, if the fight hard, they would improve and are better next season. And how many rebuild season do we else need??? I have the feeling we never did a really rebuild since the 2014-15 season. So those year are only trash, nothing happened!!! Ok it was Phils failure. Regarding Mills and Perry, I actually don´t know if we will succeeding one with them. If the situation 2020 is similar they must get fired!!!! I wish there would be a position above Dolan who can fire him!!!!!

    90. lavor postell

      I don’t necessarily think it’s that there aren’t dopes in charge of front offices around the league, but that the league (and fans) now values 1st round picks so much that it’s made teams increasingly risk averse in trading assets for a “star” unless that star is a clear cut stud, which Blake isn’t any longer and why that deal was widely panned by most when it happened. Maybe Toronto can find a sucker for DeRozan, but I think their best bet would be something like Melo and a protected 1st or something along those lines, which effectively lets them out of the deal for an expiring deal with a minimal asset attached.

    91. GianaDani

      As constructed Toronto aka Jamestown will be a top four team in the Eastern Conference for another 4 yrs, minimum. Consistent sell outs, two all-stars, growing fan base (revenue) etc… and some folks here think this is a perfect time for owner to move away from this situation and go back to losing aka discounted tickets and lower merchandising revenue?

      Every franchise/owner has the same goal, get to the top 4 teams in your conference and give yourself a shot at the finals and stay at the top four spot as long as possible. Injuries, sickness, player forced trades, veteran is picked of waivers, player surprises downside, life timing (players personal situations like family sickness, marriage, alcohol/drug abuse etc), poor referring (ex: Hubert Davis call or Charles Smith non call), someone gets hot and outplays their abilities, ejections and/or suspensions, perfect matchups, etc…are often X-factors and determine who wins a specific series.

    92. GianaDani

      KP is a franchise player because he’s a clean cut guy who doesn’t get in trouble and can be marketed as Franchise player. Same as Melo. CP3, Blake, Dirk, Pierce, TMac..etc. Reason the owners give them max money is because they make 10x that in return. Type in MSG in yahoo finance website, see how the stock did during Melo’s time here at the garden and then ask yourself if Dolan thinks Melo trade was good?

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