Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, March 22, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.02.23)

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek impressed with Burke both offensively and defensively
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 11:40:54 PM)

    Trey Burke led the Knicks with 26 points in their 120-113 win over the Magic on Thursday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks beat Magic 120-113 in first game since All-Star break
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:00:26 PM)

    Trey Burke scores 26 as the Knicks return from the All-Star break with a 120-113 win against the Magic.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s game: Knicks at Magic, 7 p.m.
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 5:30:23 PM)

    The Knicks return from the All-Star break with a game against the Magic at 7 p.m. on Thursday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek could be coaching for job in Knicks’ final regular-season stretch
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 9:15:16 AM)

    At the start of the season, the Knicks thought they were playing for a playoff berth. Now, with 23 games left, they could be playing to save Jeff Hornacek’s job.

  • [NYDN] Knicks have yet to decide how they’ll proceed with Joakim Noah
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 8:27:31 PM)

    Joakim Noah may never suit up again for the Knicks, but he’ll have plenty of desirable options should he negotiate a buyout with the club.

  • [NYDN] Knicks fend off Magic to snap losing streak with 120-113 victory
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 8:23:41 PM)

    Emmanuel Mudiay started but Trey Burke closed.

  • [ESPN] Mudiay helps Knicks win in first start at PG
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 6:57:34 PM)

    The New York Knicks started Emmanuel Mudiay at point guard Thursday night in a 120-113 win over the Orlando Magic. Mudiay scored eight points and handed out four assists.

  • [NYPost] Emmanuel Mudiay’s first Knicks start has a little bit of everything
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 11:05:04 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — In his first start as a Knick on Thursday, it wasn’t Emmanuel Mudiay at his finest as he still tries to learn his new teammates. But he seemed well in sync with Tim Hardaway Jr. in a momentum-boosting play to close the first half. In the final seconds of the opening half,…

  • [NYPost] Newest Knick displays some of his advertised ‘athleticism’
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:10:32 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — In his final game with the Rockets organization last week, small forward Troy Williams was playing for the G-League’s Rio Grande Valley Vipers. “Before about 50 fans,” Williams said. Williams, who got into just four games with the Rockets this season after going undrafted in 2016, made his Knicks debut Thursday just…

  • [NYPost] Trey Burke, Frank Ntilikina help Knicks snap eight-game skid
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 4:37:19 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — The All-Star break is over. The Knicks’ eight-game losing streak is over. And this three-headed, young point-guard maze has just begun. In a surprising twist Thursday, Emmanuel Mudiay started, but Trey Burke closed as the hero, forming a cohesive finishing tandem with rookie Frank Ntilikina. A forgotten man since the Mudiay trade…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ words don’t match treatment of Frank Ntilikina
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 9:25:25 AM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Participating in the Rising Stars Challenge during All-Star Weekend doesn’t buy you a ticket into the new starting lineup, apparently. Rookie point guard Frank Ntilikina is emerging from his experience in Los Angeles in the same role he had before heading West — coming off the bench. Coach Jeff Hornacek’s yanked Jarrett…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ youth movement begins with spirited win over Magic
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 11:02:11 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — No tanks.

  • [NY Newsday] Hornacek: Knicks believe in Ntilikina despite acquisitions of Mudiay, Burke
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:26:44 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek said that Frank Ntilikina should not view the in-season acquisitions of Emmanuel Mudiay and Trey Burke as threats to him or an indication that the organization doesn’t believe in the rookie point guard.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Steve Mills was guided by legendary father Ollie
    (Thursday, February 22, 2018 7:41:26 PM)

    In his three decades as an NBA executive, Steve Mills has stood on many of the great basketball courts in the world.

  • 76 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.02.23)

    1. mase

      Someone mentioned yesterday the final date for a team to sign a player for example Noah should he be bought out is March 1. would any team sign him for the remainder of the season and for how much?

    2. Brian Cronin

      I bet that someone would sign him, but I also bet that they’d only give him a league minimum contract for the rest of the season. Then he’d be a free agent and be able to try to get some team to sign him next season.

    3. thenoblefacehumper

      I think Noah will be waived before the deadline. Maybe we’ll get token savings on a buyout but nothing that matters.

      He’ll go on to play productive spot minutes for a contender, exposing how stupidly we handled the entire process. There really is no other way this ends.

    4. Stratomatic "It's tough being us"

      I’m not sure if Burke is good enough defensively to be a starting PG on a contender, but we may have our backup PG position locked up. Baby steps.

      Given that Burke looks pretty good, the Mudiay trade looks worse. There’s talent there, but the gap between his talent and his production is enormous.

      Frank and Burke go well together in some ways, but if Burke is the PG, Frank is going to have to do more on the boards or elsewhere. He’s going to have the ball less often and get fewer assists. He HAS to come back next year with at least a much better 3 point shot and something else. I like the blocks. With his length and defensive instincts he should get some blocks.

      If we could somehow combine Burke and Frank into 1 player, that would be quite a player.

    5. Max

      Some interesting details on the Knicks Wall channel on YT.
      On defense size is a problem for Burke but at least he seems committed to try and his shooting prowess force opposing D to stay close, opening space for others.
      With the exception of LT’s minutes I find yesterday’s playing time acceptable, now I want to see more of Williams (Zach Lowe agrees in his last column :-) )
      BTW since his debut game the UniKornet is 0-10, including 0-8 from 3PT.

    6. ess-dog

      Yeah Kornet isn’t an nba player.
      Burke looks great but he’s 25. That’s a lot older than 19 or 21.
      That being said, I’m already pretty sick of Mudiay. I’d rather just roll with an undersized 3 by using Burke/Frank/TH2 in the starting lineup. Sadly, a Burke/Frank/TH2/pf/Kyle lineup might actually win some games.

    7. hoolahoop

      Burke looked real good last night, the most polished of out PG’s. He’s got a well rounded, smooth offensive game. His size/defense are the biggest knocks against him.

      Mudiay had some good and bad moments last night. He made some great passes and a few good shots. Also, he made some awful passes and a few bad shots.
      His problems almost always stem from mental errors – taking contested shots, passing into congestion, and driving into traffic. All Fixable. He needs someone to teach him discipline.
      Maybe he’ll never learn and have a stunted career. But he’s only 21, big, athletic and shows good signs. I’m still hopeful he can become a solid PG.
      I can’t understand why everyone here hates him so much, but so be patient with Frank.

    8. Nick C.

      @ 11, Mudiay has had two full seasons as a starter to figure it out that Frank has not. Also, Frank seems to exhibit a high basketball IQ, lazy passes notwithstanding.

    9. hoolahoop

      Mudiay has had two full seasons as a starter to figure it out that Frank has not.

      So, because of what he did in Denver, you’re going to trash him as a knick? I think a good coach can fix his game. Last night he had 4 assists and 2 tunovers. Not horrible. But he should have had zero turnovers. Both TO’s were dumb passes he should not have attempted.
      I’m a knicks fan. Until it seems hopeless – on what they’re doing in a knicks uniform – I’m rooting for all our young guys to succeed. I like Frank, Burke and Mudiay.

      Frank seems to exhibit a high basketball IQ, lazy passes notwithstanding.

      On defense, yes. On offense, I don’t see it.

    10. 2FOR18, understands math

      Plus, Mudiay is pretty much a finished product physically, while Frank has all kinds of room to grow there.

    11. 2FOR18, understands math

      @ 13. After Mudiay’s first 2 games as a Knick, you said he had great presence, looked like a player, and can become a border line All-Star.
      After his 3rd game, you said you were wrong about him, that he sucks.
      After last night’s game, you are citing his 4:2 a/to ratio as a sign of his potential.

      All of this while willfully ignoring anything he did in 2.5 years in Denver, as if that doesn’t matter.

      In short, you are not to be taken seriously.

    12. swiftandabundant

      I mean the thing is if Hornaceck plays these young guys more we will win more games because they’re hungry and wanting to prove themselves and its the end of the season. Some of the good teams we’re gonna face are gonna be in rest mode for the playoffs and the bad teams are also going to be in tank mode. We really just have to accept our fate and pick the best player wherever we end up. But hey, maybe we’ll get lucky this year and pick earlier than our record spot. Its bound to happen eventually right? I mean the last two drafts we’ve picked later than our record spot so you’d think it would bounce in our favor eventually right?

      Play the young guys. Let the lottery fall where it may. Draft well on draft day and see what else we can do this off season to get younger and more athletic. And for God’s sake keep Horns. There is no reason to fire him. People say our roster sucks but then want to fire Horns and blame him for everything. He’s a decent coach. Lets have some continuity for once.

    13. hoolahoop

      @ 15.
      I never said Mudiay sucks.
      At times, Mudiay does show tremendous court presence, especially at passing and pushing the ball up in transition.
      I said he played awful in his third game.
      I stand by what I said from the beginning. If he cleans up his game, reducing his mental errors, he can be an excellent PG. If he keeps doing the same stupid mistakes, he’ll suck.
      Time will tell, but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

    14. 2FOR18, understands math

      Edit: Nobody hates anybody. And we all wish that he turns into a great player. But some people prefer evidence, such as stats and performance, over hopes and dreams. What drove Billy Beane and, before him, Bill James, nuts was judging players based on tools and how they looked vs how they actually performed. see Jeremy Lin for a prime example, who only got to play because everybody else got hurt on the one team that would even sign him to a minimum contract.

      Look at TJ McConnell. If you stand him side by side with Mudiay and put them through some physical drills, you’d pick Mudiay every time. But put them in a basketball game, and it’s clear which one can actually play a serviceable PG.

    15. Nick C.

      @ 13 you asked why, I gave you a possible reason, namely past performance, and your response is to be annoyed with me for taking the time to give you an answer? Don’t ask questions if you are going to be that way with people who bother to answer.

    16. hoolahoop

      Look at TJ McConnell. If you stand him side by side with Mudiay and put them through some physical drills, you’d pick Mudiay every time. But put them in a basketball game, and it’s clear which one can actually play a serviceable PG.

      TJ McConnell is a tough, smart, hungry ball player. I hate what he does to the knicks.
      But, make him your starting PG on the knicks, will his game hold up?

    17. 2FOR18, understands math

      Yeah, I can live with the Knicks losing ping pong balls if the kids are playing. But I think the one way to almost ensure losing would be to sit O’Quinn for Kornet or Hicks. O’Quinn is just so damn good they would have no chance without him.

    18. swiftandabundant

      Yeah I’m not going to write of Mudiay when he’s only 21 and didn’t go to college and played 11 games in China before going to the NBA. Yes at this point he has a fairly large sample size but honestly he should not have been thrown into the fire of starting from day one in Denver and his rookie stats are definitely the worst. We have the rest of this season, the off season and next year to evaluate him. And the good news is that he probably could be resigned for cheap next year if we want to because unless he just takes this monumental leap next season, even if he improves, he’s not gonna command a huge salary in free agency. But in his next contract is when he could put it together. I’m intrigued by the skills and the physical tools. Him and Frank together could be really nice.

      Regardless…I like the kids on this team! I’m oddly excited about next year without KP.

      And I know we gotta lose the rest of the way but please pretty please is it ok if they beat the clippers next week? Cause I’m going to that game…first one in 3 years. So a W would be nice!

    19. rama in the JING


      Hoolahoop is interested in neither Statistical Analysis or Humor. Not worth the time to argue.

      “Hey, this last game his asst/to ratio is 2:1! He’s got potential!”

      “Hey, why are you citing 2 seasons as evidence of his potential? Aren’t you a fan?”

      Not any more. Or at least, not right now. I would need just cause to believe our FO understands how to build a team. This isn’t baseball: you don’t add 8 starting pitchers and know it will work out because of injuries. The Knicks added 4 centers (or 5, really), didn’t address the logjam, and therefore lost a young player who got ROY votes and was on a PHENOMENAL contract for a bag of beans, and ended up with another who is being paid $18mil to stay home. Oh, and didn’t trade the one who is likely to be gone next year, getting 0 value for him.

      Meanwhile we draft a potential PG, bring up another through the D league, and then trade for one who in a substantial number of minutes has shown no real evidence he’ll ever be a quality player. Let’s repeat the mistakes of the past WHILE IT ISN’T EVEN YET PAST!


      And now we can’t lose games to get better draft odds, ensuring another mediocre pick in a stacked draft.

      The only hope, really, is to get lucky. If the ping pong balls bounce our way and we jump a few picks, then I’ll believe maybe KP’s injury was luck helping us get good draft position next year and to keep him at a more reasonable price after a partial season where he shows he can still play but needs time. But…it would take that kind of luck.

    20. Bruno Almeida

      I’m with Owen, I already have written Mudiay off.

      Changing teams does not suddenly make a historically bad player become promising again. If it was just his offensive production, ok, I can deal with that, but he is a straight up terrible defender who adds nothing to this team. Burke and Ntilikina should be taking 100% of the PG minutes, but here we are attempting again to salvage the career of a guy who should be the star of the Xinjiang Flying Tigers by now.

      Who knows, maybe Burke is a real player and will be a contributor for the next years, at least something good would come out of this clown fest.

    21. swiftandabundant

      @ 25 – Rama that is a very unfair assessment.

      First of all, in order to trade Melo they HAD to take back Kanter to match salaries. That is how trades work. Their only options were Houston and OKC bc Melo had the no trade clause (thanks phil!) and the OKC offer was better (everyone believed this at the time). The FO said at the time that the roster was imbalanced but that it was a work in progress. The way you explain it, you make it sound like Perry came on board and was like “WE NEED TO ADD MORE CENTERS!” when that is just not true at all.

      They added one center this off season. And KP has spent the majority of his career so far playing PF, not center. Plus Noah was serving a 12 game suspension AND hardly played last year because of injuries. So that center logjam really wasn’t that bad. Willy got screwed but also Willy didn’t step up and take minutes away from KQ or Kanter, who outperformed him in practice and in games. He balked at the idea of going to the D-League.

      And yes, Frank could be a PG. But he could also be a SG/Wing. They drafted him not because they thought “PG of the future for sure” but because of his intriguing versatility, defense and potential. He was not a clear PG like Fox or Ball or even Smith Jr. And he may not even end up being that. Everyone is mad that we got Mudiay cause its taking time away from Frank at PG but what if Frank’s best position ultimately is a playmaking SG. Why are people so caught up in labels/positions when they NBA is becoming more and more position less?

      I don’t see how getting Mudiay is repeating mistakes from the past. Was he an aging free agent that we overpaid for? Did we give up a king’s ransom to get him? He’s a former lottery pick who is still less than 3 years in the league, not even 22 and has athleticism and size. How is taking a flyer on this kid a bad thing again when this season and next is all ready lost bc KP went down?

      The Noah situation sucks but I mean it sucked last year too…

    22. 2FOR18, understands math

      Damn, O’Quinn was even better than my eye test last night. 14 pts. on 8 shots, 8 boards, 3 blocks, +9 in 18 minutes. If the Bulls are going to sit Lopez, we have to do the same with O’Quinn.

    23. djphan

      i don’t really like mudiay either but i like what we did with him yesterday featuring him in the post for a couple of possessions…. i don’t think that’s a great option but i like that we’re trying different things….

      also … early returns on frank at sg has been disastrous…. his assist rate has been abysmal and his shooting has been even more atrocious…. if we’re playing burke and mudiay at lead guard next season this could very well bury frank…

    24. Owen

      The point about Mudiay is that instead of searching high and low for someone with genuine potential, like a TJ McConnell (not that he is any great shakes), we went after someone whose statistical record is so overwhelmingly terrible it makes you scratch your head.

      As I always say in these situations, I would love to be wrong. I am rooting for Mudiay to figure it out and then sign a below market long term deal and be a Knicks stalwart for years.

      But the chances of that happening are about 1 in 1000.

    25. ess-dog

      If I thought that Frank and Mudiay were getting real teaching from this staff, I might be a little more hopeful. But these guys come with little training and actual practice under their belts and can’t get much during the season (not that you want Rambis telling them anything).
      Going down to the G-League where you can experiment without being under the microscope would be so helpful… it just won’t ever happen.

    26. KJG

      i know just one thing… o’quinn needs to cut the shit with the momentum killing illegal screens… hes a moron… but i digress… im not a tanker, but i dont mind losing, and i dont mind winning with youngins…

    27. Bruno Almeida

      The Mudiay trade is exactly the same idea that has been plaguing this organization for decades: every team needs to take chances on small deals and inconsequential signings because it is possible to get value out of this. But good teams take chances on guys who have actually either shown something promising or are complete unknowns in the professional level.

      Mudiay is a known quantity, he’s terrible, the only reason he’s in the NBA is because he was hyped as a prospect when he was 17 and he’s athletic. Good teams find value out of such small deals; the Knicks find Mudiay.

    28. ess-dog

      In a bubble, I’m ok enough with the trade. He only cost a 2nd rounder and McD and comes off the books soon enough, I just don’t think he deserves minutes over Frank or Burke, and that could hinder the progress of those guys.

      Re: the tank, I’m not sure we can move up much more. I’m just hoping that we don’t drop at all. If we end up between 8-10, I’d be very happy with Wendell Carter. He’s already a well-rounded player and could be a physical force eventually. That’s assuming JJJ will be gone by then.

      In round two, I’d like to take a flyer on Chandler Hutchinson. He looks very polished on both sides of the ball.

    29. thenamestsam

      I think Noah will be waived before the deadline. Maybe we’ll get token savings on a buyout but nothing that matters.

      He’ll go on to play productive spot minutes for a contender, exposing how stupidly we handled the entire process. There really is no other way this ends.

      Noah is in a pretty interesting situation. Center is such a deep position around the league and it has been so long since he’s shown effective play that I think he really needs to get back to playing somewhere now if he wants to really salvage his career. By next year’s buyout deadline I just think it will be too late. On the other hand the Knicks don’t really have much incentive to cut him lose now unless they get significant savings. So I think the Knicks actually have a pretty significant upper hand in negotiations. For Noah it probably comes down to whether he’s willing to risk a lot of long-term money to have a chance to seriously play again. If I was his agent I’d be begging him not to take a buy-out and I’d bet in the end he decides to stand pat and bet on getting another chance in NY with a new head coach next year.

    30. djphan

      i’m beginning to think carter is the best big in the draft…. he compares pretty favorably to love and he has better defensive upside than him…

    31. rama in the JING

      @27 –

      Swift, I wasn’t implying intent; I was simply restating the facts. I thought the Kanter trade was pretty good – maybe even VERY good, given that Phil was looking to buy Melo out. But Perry recognized it created a problem, and then did nothing about it. Because he did nothing about it, we destroyed the value of a player with 3 years left on his deal at near-minimum who had just been in the conversation for ROY and would have gone in the top 5 in any redraft. That is just bad management – you can’t blame Hornacek for not playing him, if indeed he sucked in practice or whatever, but you can blame management for creating a problem and then not dealing with it. Which then predictably led to major problems, including trading away a player for pennies on the dollar.

      And in a vacuum, the Mudiay trade isn’t terrible either but it’s terrible for the same reasons: he is getting time and Frank (and to a lesser degree Burke) isn’t. Frank may never be anything, but at the very least we should find out as quickly as possible what his potential is BY PLAYING HIM. Having a player who has been terrible in nearly three full seasons take his minutes is, again, mismanagement.

      Put another way, we traded away a player who in his one full season put up very good numbers and traded for another who in 2+ seasons put up terrible numbers. Why? Because Player A was a second round pick without “tools” and “athleticism” and Player B was a top 10 pick with “tools” and “athleticism.”

      This franchise has learned nothing about finding value. Interaction effects make quantitative analysis less useful than in baseball, but fundamentally it’s the same thing as MONEYBALL: “look at his tools, his height, he’s got an NBA-body, he can jump out of the building,” blah blah fucking blah.

    32. ClashFan

      I’m not as down on Mudiay starting as some. If he continues to stink, which is very likely, then it is good for the tank. I wish they hadn’t given up that 2nd rounder, though.

      But yeah, Frank and Trey need to play. Last night’s G minutes were fine.

      As has been said, limiting OQ’s minutes needs to happen right away. All playing him does is hurt the tank and further drive up his likely asking price after the season…

    33. swiftandabundant

      Willy would have been a top 5 Pick in a redraft and was in convo for rookie of the year? Are you serious with this hyperbole?

      In a redraft Willy would have been drafted in the first round but claiming he would have been a top 5 Pick is a HUGE stretch.

      Also, getting a few votes for ROY or being named second team all rookie IS NOT THE SAME as being in convo for rookie of the year. Willy our up decently good rookie stats in the back half of the season last year. He did not play all season.

      I mean I get you think Willy was a wasted opportunity but you basically just said he was on the caliber of KP or KAT as far as his ceiling and that’s just plain ridiculous.

    34. djphan

      i also find it pretty ridiculous that mudiay was the one chosen to start when frank and burke has seen a lot more time….

    35. Stratomatic "It's tough being us"

      I’m OK with the minutes distribution from last night, but I’m not happy with Mudiay jumping over Frank and Burke to start. If he outplays them fine, but other than that he should earn everything above some developmental time on merit. So far, I think Burke and Frank deserve the minutes and he is 3rd.

      I would also like to see Frank continue getting minutes at PG with Dotson, Hardaway or even Lee at SG. I want to see him at both PG and SG.

    36. kevin5318

      No way does Willy go top 5 in that draft. KP, Myles, Booker, KAT, WCS, Deangelo, Trey, Oubre, Rozier, Wright, RHJ, Nance etc..

    37. Bruno Almeida


      After Willy’s rookie year, I would certainly pick him before Rozier, Russell, Hollis-Jefferson, Nance and Lyles. That leaves him at least top 10.
      If you count 2016 which was his actual rookie year, his production was without a doubt top 5 in a weak class.

      I don’t even think he’s going to be amazing or anything, but this revisionist story that he never once showed anything in terms of production needs to go. I know we tend to overanalyze player’s weaknesses but the Knicks did simply trade a productive 2nd year player under a super favorable contract for nothing because he feuded with the clown coach.

    38. Hubert

      The point about Mudiay is that instead of searching high and low for someone with genuine potential, like a TJ McConnell (not that he is any great shakes), we went after someone whose statistical record is so overwhelmingly terrible it makes you scratch your head.

      Stanley Johnson was eminently available, probably for the same price as Mudiay.

      Johnson’s shooting numbers are legitimately atrocious, but he has shown enough promise to take a chance on. Acquiring him would have been a fair gamble and made me at least think these guys are smart.

      Instead, no. We just went with the athletetic guy who sucks at basketball and handed him the point guard minutes we should be giving to Frank.

    39. Max

      Looking at the game logs, SVG is taking the chance on Johnson,
      he’s playing a lot after the trade for Griffin,
      I don’t think he was available anymore.
      I agree that he would have been a good gamble.

    40. No Knicks Lead is Safe

      Not that it makes a huge difference, but Willie was actually first team all rookie. He was also fifth in ROY vote points, which is nothing to sneeze at.

    41. No Knicks Lead is Safe

      But no, I don’t think he’d be top 5 in a redraft today (or even at the end of last season).

    42. Max

      Willy’s updated stats in CHA:

      72 TReb/36min
      36 Blk/36 min

      Yes, I missed another number, but he must press for an extension right now…


    43. rama in the JING

      Willy would have been a top 5 Pick in a redraft and was in convo for rookie of the year? Are you serious with this hyperbole?

      It’s not hyperbole. He was first team all-rookie. He finished third (if I remember correctly) in ROY voting.

      As for Top 5, damn straight – in the draft after the first year he played, not the KAT draft. He didn’t come over right away, so I am talking about HIS ACTUAL ROOKIE YEAR, not when he was drafted. Go look at any thread from around the end of that year, and you’ll see plenty of references to how he should win, but won’t because he didn’t start getting regular minutes until halfway through the season.

      It is indeed revisionist BS to change the story because he’s been traded and is no longer a Knick. Just as much as it’s BS to decide that, now that he’s a Knick, Mudiay could become a good player instead of the trash he’s been. Again, it isn’t impossible…but I wouldn’t put even $5 on it.

    44. rama in the JING

      Actually, looking at that 2016 draft, I think Willy would STILL go in the top 5, even after a season of sitting on the bench. What a terrible draft.

    45. 2FOR18, understands math

      Karl-Anthony Towns+~
      D’Angelo Russell
      Jahlil Okafor
      Kristaps Porzi??is+
      Mario Hezonja
      Willie Cauley-Stein
      Emmanuel Mudiay
      Stanley Johnson
      Frank Kaminsky
      Justise Winslow
      Myles Turner
      Trey Lyles
      Devin Booker
      Cameron Payne
      Kelly Oubre Jr.
      Terry Rozier
      Rashad Vaughn
      Sam Dekker
      Jerian Grant
      Delon Wright
      Justin Anderson
      Bobby Portis
      Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
      Tyus Jones
      Jarell Martin
      Nikola Milutinov#
      Larry Nance Jr.
      R. J. Hunter
      Chris McCullough
      Kevon Looney
      Cedi Osman
      Montrezl Harrell
      Jordan Mickey
      Anthony Brown
      Willy Hernangómez
      Rakeem Christmas
      Richaun Holmes
      Darrun Hilliard
      Juan Pablo Vaulet#
      Josh Richardson
      Pat Connaughton
      Olivier Hanlan#
      Joseph Young
      Andrew Harrison
      Marcus Thornton#
      Norman Powell
      Art?ras Gudaitis#
      Dakari Johnson

      I’d say he’d probably go 10-15 if that draft were re-done after that season (not now, but after his rookie year in the league)

    46. thenoblefacehumper

      How badly, and for how long, do the Knicks have to suck before people stop deferring to their authority with regards to basketball decisions?

      Clearly “very” and “around 18 years” are not the answers to those respective questions, because people are still saying the Knicks’ internal evaluation of Willy alone was sufficient rationale to trade him for nothing.

      Guys, this team has fucking sucked forever. They make bad basketball decisions. I mean, let’s use Occam’s Razor here; what’s more likely, the Knicks traded Willy because their secret Practice Evaluation Model correctly determined he was bad, or a dumb team did a dumb thing?

    47. Henry George

      Rhetorical Question:

      How many minutes has CHA played WHG?

      Seriously, he’s just not that good right now. He can improve, but hasn’t cared to up to this point, which is really why he’s not a NY Knick anymore.

    48. Max

      Right now, trading Willy is a bad “process” move
      (he didn’t play enough this year, he was All Rookie last year) from a
      dumb FO that will suck forever (or until they hire us as GMs)

      The fact that is a bad process move doesn’t mean that Willy is a good player or that he’ll be useful long term.
      It’ll be years before we could really evaluate this specific aspect.
      He could become a star, he could become a starter, he could become a garbage time scrub, he could be in Europe in two years. And the two 2RD we received for him will be evaluated accordingly.

      One thing is judging the trade (very questionable) and the asset management (very bad) another thing is judging the player (jury’s still out).

    49. the don nelson era

      He was buried on our roster, asked out, and was then traded to a team that already has 3 established big men. Given the reported interest of many teams and the mediocre return, it’s almost like our FO prioritized sending him to a shitty situation.

    50. Bruno Almeida

      Playing time is seriously not a valid argument when we’re dealing with the damn New York Knicks and the Charlotte Hornets, combined records of 49-69.

      The Knicks were starting Jarrett Jack seriously thinking he was helping a playoff push while keeping Trey Burke on the G-League for like 25 games too long when he might be the best PG on the team now. Our coach actually really truly thinks Lance Thomas provides any value to a NBA team.

    51. Henry George

      While KP was busy becoming Ivan Drago last summer, WTF was WHG doing? Sept ’17 Willy looked just like April ’17 Willy.

      Even Ron f’in Baker got better.

      IMHO, he wasted his summer. SMH

    52. Max

      Last year All Rookie Second Team includes Jamal Murray, Jaylen Brown and Brandon Ingram.

      Not stars (until now) but today would anyone take Willy before them even if he was First Team?

    53. Farfa

      I wouldn’t use the “couldn’t crack the rotation” excuse when our coach main problems are rotations and communication with the players. Willy didn’t look good this year, but the trade return is still just awful.

    54. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Just a reminder that Mudiay is owed $4.2M next year, which is over $1M more than WHG is owed over the next two years.

      It makes no sense at all to give WHG up for assets (mid 2RPs) that could be purchased for about the price of his salary. Even if he had half the production that he did last year, or injury concerns, or if he were truly worse than Kanter on D, it makes no sense at all to trade him for basically nothing.

      And that’s why the Knicks did it: because it was the obviously-wrong decision, because that’s what the Knicks do.

    55. Bruno Almeida


      it’s probably a good analogy, since Ivan Drago clearly can’t shoot too.

      Seriously, it was a ridiculous trade, let’s just move on. Maybe in 2020 or 21 we’ll get a Willy Hernangomez type of player from those awesome picks.

    56. johnno

      Why is it that, when the Knicks acquire two second round picks, they’ve gotten “basically nothing” but when they give up a second round pick “that could be purchased for a the price of WHG’s salary” to take a flier on Mudiay, they’ve wasted some precious asset?

    57. Brian Cronin

      Future second rounders are worth considerably less than current year second rounders.

      In this instance, the two future seconds combined are probably worth a bit less than the second they gave up to get Mudiay in terms of current trade value.

      But yes, in general, seconds tend not to be great assets, which is why I certainly wasn’t freaking about about them dealing one for Mudiay.

      However, when you’re a team of little to no assets like the Knicks, you probably should be more careful with your seconds. So it probably wasn’t the best idea to trade one for Mudiay. Not a terrible idea, of course, but probably not the best idea.

    58. Bruno Almeida

      First because it’s a current second for a player of no value. Second because it was seconds in 2020 and 2021 for a player with some value.

      The Knicks could also buy a second rounder this year to replace the one sent for Mudiay. My complaint, and that of others who argued similarly, is why give anything to take a flyer on Mudiay of all people. I even called it an inconsequential deal, because that’s what it kinda is considering McDermott would not be retained anyway, we’re complaining about the Knicks using any asset to acquire Mudiay because it shows this front office continues to value the wrong things when looking at young players / taking chances on small deals.

    59. Brian Cronin

      Yikes, Jimmy Butler with a scary injury. The initial MRI was negative, so maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe it wasn’t a torn MCL/ACL. Here’s hoping!

    60. Jack Bauer

      Sean Miller caught on tape offering money to get Ayton to sign with Arizona. Not good for the Wildcats, he’s done if that’s true.

    61. Bruno Almeida

      I had to re-read the terms of Lou Williams’ extension a couple of times, because I couldn’t believe it was so cheap. Jerry West must have brainwashed him to take half of what THJ is making. He needs to fire his agent asap.

      Butler’s xray’s apparently came negative, hope it’s nothing as serious as it looked.

    62. Brian Cronin

      Butler’s xray’s apparently came negative, hope it’s nothing as serious as it looked.

      Initial X-rays were negative, but we’ll know for sure if they didn’t miss something less obvious tomorrow. Fingers crossed for him.

    63. Stratomatic "It's tough being us"


      The reason the Knicks traded Hernangomez was because he’s a young promising player that wanted developmental time, but he was buried on the bench, upset, his agent complained, and he asked for a trade given there was a lot of interest elsewhere.

      They could have said “no”, but then Willy and his agent would get pissed off and other players and their agents would see the Knicks burying a promising young guy that many other teams were interested in and hurting his career development. That’s not what you want either.

      You can ask why they accepted a Melo deal that included Kanter when they already had Noah, O’Quinn, and Willy, but they were trying to keep Melo happy and get as much back as possible.

      You can ask why they were playing O’Quinn when he might be gone anyway. It was because he earned the minutes on merit, was in a contract year, and burying him when he was playing better and in a contract year would have been even a worse look than burying Willy.

      Teams have to deal with players, their careers, their families, their agents, the union, the league, and the reputation of their franchise. They can’t just move pieces around based on numbers. They are tying to keep everyone happy while building their team because there are downsides to players and agents hating you.

      They have a similar issue with Noah now. They could take a hard line and just tell him stay home so they could potentially use his contract later, but then you are pissing him and his agent off and the rest of the league will see that you have a veteran player totally buried away from the team when other teams want him. That’s not going to make other players, agents or the player union happy either. We are the ones that made the bad deal. We are the ones refusing to play him even in garbage time and are incapable of trading him. But he wants to play and playoff teams want him. So the idea is find something that works for both sides where we save a little money and he gets to play.

    64. Sir Robin

      Strat. Respectfully disagree. Its already the most player friendly league in professional sports history. NYKs offered and Noah accepted the deal. Why do I think if they agree to buyout the discount would be equal to or less than the players min which he would sign for subsequently? Or the million or so dollars Melo left on the table when he signed. The FO effed up again. Horns should never have made the statement about the situation not being finalized because he’s still on the roster. That destroyed our leverage. Let him sit. He’s more anxious for the release than we should be.

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