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Friday, May 25, 2018

Knicks Morning News (2018.02.08)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks trade Willy Hernangomez to Hornets
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:26:00 PM)

    They acquire Johnny O’Bryant, who will be waived, and second-round draft picks in 2020 and 2021.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks expect Kristaps Porzingis to return better than ever
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:22:00 PM)

    TORONTO — Kristaps Porzingis was described as “devastated” when doctors told him he had a torn left anterior cruciate ligament Tuesday night. But those who spoke to Porzingis said he already has begun the recovery process, mentally at least.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks are No. 1 … on Forbes’ list of NBA franchise values
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:44:09 PM)

    The Knicks are the most valuable franchise in the NBA for the third straight year, according to franchise values released by Forbes on Wednesday.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony reacts to Kristaps Porzingis’ ACL injury
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:25:46 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony felt awful when he heard that his former teammate Kristaps Porzingis tore his left ACL in Tuesday’s game against Milwaukee.

  • [NYDN] Reality sinking in for Knicks as life without Porzingis begins
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 1:00:44 PM)

    Reality hit the Knicks hard Wednesday.

  • [NYDN] Knicks deal Willy Hernangomez to Hornets for 2 second-round picks
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:03:01 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis lost his season and his best friend on the team in a matter of hours.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ situation could get worse before it gets better
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:07:31 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis lost his season and then lost his best friend, Willy Hernangomez, to a trade all within the span of roughly 15 hours.

  • [NYDN] These factors determine when Porzingis could return: orthopedist
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:32:07 AM)

    A local orthopedist and knee specialist is optimistic Kristaps Porzingis will make a full recovery from the torn left ACL he suffered.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Enes Kanter tweets picture of mouth after oral surgery
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:24:52 AM)

    Enes Kanter finally got his mouth fixed.

  • [NYDN] Fantasy Basketball: Fallout following Kristaps Porzingis’ injury
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:24:35 AM)

    Daily Fantasy Sports are where it’s at and DailyRoto.com covers them all.

  • [NYTimes] Kristaps Porzingis Tears A.C.L., Crippling the Knicks
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:07:13 AM)

    The All-Star forward landed awkwardly after a dunk in the Knicks’ loss to the Milwaukee Bucks on Tuesday. He will miss the remainder of the season.

  • [ESPN] Porzingis will attack rehab; Knicks to refocus
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:07:48 PM)

    The Knicks firmly believe that All-Star forward Kristaps Porzingis will return to form when he recovers from his torn ACL, but in the meantime, they must change course in how they approach the trade deadline and free agency.

  • [ESPN] Does the Knicks-Hornets trade free Willy Hernangomez in fantasy?
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:04:42 PM)

    He went from being a potential breakout fantasy player to a benchwarmer in New York this season. Will he turn things around with the Hornets?

  • [ESPN] All NBA teams worth $1B+ in Forbes valuations
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:55:05 AM)

    The Knicks, at $3.6 billion, lead the Forbes NBA team valuations for the third straight year. For the first time, all NBA teams were valued at more than $1 billion.

  • [ESPN] Knicks deal center Hernangomez to Hornets
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:38:28 AM)

    The Knicks traded disgruntled center Willy Hernangomez to the Hornets on Wednesday in exchange for forward Johnny O’Bryant and two second-round draft picks.

  • [ESPN] Trade grades: How did Knicks, Hornets do in Hernangomez deal?
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:29:10 AM)

    The Hornets add another center and the Knicks get two picks. Kevin Pelton grades the trade.

  • [ESPN] Fantasy NBA Daily Notes: What is fantasy without a Unicorn?
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:57:01 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis tore an ACL on Tuesday and is done for the season. What will the New York Knicks do now? André Snellings tells fantasy managers where to turn.

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek isn’t going anywhere — for now
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 3:46:32 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is gone for the season, but Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek won’t be going anywhere. There were previous indications from team brass Hornacek wouldn’t be evaluated until after this season despite the clamor from the fan base that has watched the Knicks slide to a season-worst 23-32 record. Now Knicks general manager Scott Perry…

  • [NYPost] Porzingis devastation can crush Knicks’ dreams — in a good way
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 1:47:21 PM)

    The Knicks have little choice in the matter of what they must do now. If there is one silver lining — and it is but a thin sliver of silver — it is this: The fantasy they’d created for themselves that they could somehow sneak into the playoffs is now over. Whatever benefits they believed…

  • [NYPost] GM outlines Knicks’ goals for when Porzingis returns
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:41:25 AM)

    Scott Perry said he met with Kristaps Porzingis late Tuesday night and told him his job as Knicks general manager will be to make sure the All-Star comes back to a better team when he recovers from his torn ACL. “[It’s] very tough news to swallow,’’ Perry said Wednesday at a damage-control press conference at…

  • [NYPost] Could the Porzingis-less Knicks make a run at the No. 1 pick?
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:19:49 AM)

    For some sports fans, college basketball takes center stage the day after the Super Bowl. For Knicks fans, it happened one day after that. A torn ACL for Kristaps Porzingis should end any hope of a late-season playoff push for the Knicks. Now, there’s something else for Knicks fans to focus on — where they…

  • [NYPost] The Knicks’ Porzingis shocker just changed everything
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:17:28 AM)

    Knicks president Steve Mills and general manager Scott Perry woke up to the hardest job in sports Wednesday. Kristaps Porzingis has a torn ACL, imperiling the franchise’s future, perhaps wasting a full year of progress. So much of this rebuild was based on the lanky 7-foot-3 Latvian turning into a superstar and getting stronger this…

  • [NYPost] This is Kristaps Porzingis’ face of heartbreak
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:35:08 AM)

    The next day the grimace was gone. Kristaps Porzingis just looked frustrated. The 7-foot-3 Knicks unicorn looked almost ordinary squeezed into a lobby-room chair at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan, just another patient for just another surgery. The 22-year-old, in black sweatpants and a white sweatshirt with his hood up, was spotted exclusively Wednesday…

  • [NYPost] Knicks didn’t get anything they wanted in Hernangomez deal
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:31:17 AM)

    Willy Hernangomez got his wish, but all the Knicks got was a couple of future second-round picks. After being buried on the bench this season, reducing his trade value, the 2017 first-team All Rookie was dealt for second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. Knicks general manager Scott Perry spent as much time saying…

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Knicks react to Porzingis’ injury
    (Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:05:34 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks give Hornacek a vote of confidence
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 7:25:00 PM)

    The Knicks are 23-32 and have lost their best play for the remainder of the season, but GM Scott Perry gave head coach Jeff Hornacek a vote of confidence on Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks not ruling out more trades following Hernangomez deal
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:30:00 PM)

    The Knicks are not ruling out additional trades in the wake of the Willy Hernangomez deal as the NBA trade deadline approaches on Thursday at 3 p.m.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks confident Porzingis will return stronger than ever
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:00:26 PM)

    As the Knicks began Day One of life without Kristaps Porzingis on Wednesday, they have no timeline on when the 7-foot-3 unicorn might return to the court.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ron Baker undergoes arthroscopic surgery on injured shoulder
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 6:45:15 PM)

    Knicks PG Ron Baker, who suffered a dislocated shoulder and torn labrum on Jan. 30 against the Nets, underwent arthroscopic surgery on Wednesday, the club announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] The Kristaps Porzingis injury changes the Knicks’ future dramatically
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:50:05 PM)

    The worst part of this is how it affects the Knicks’ future.

  • [SNY Knicks] Perry says Porzingis will have surgery soon; no timetable yet for return
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:45:02 PM)

    Knicks C Kristaps Porzingis tore the ACL in his left knee during Tuesday night’s game against the Bucks.

  • [SNY Knicks] The Knicks butchered the Willy Hernangomez trade
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:27:47 AM)

    In return for Hernangomez, the Knicks will receive PF Johnny O’Bryant and second-round picks in 2020 and 2021.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony saddened over injury to Kristaps Porzingis
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 1:30:37 PM)

    Thunder F Carmelo Anthony couldn’t believe what happened to his former Knicks teammate Kristaps Porzingis on Tuesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis’ ACL injury the latest blow to struggling Knicks
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:45:32 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis’ All-Star dreams will have to be put on hold, as now he must focus on returning to the game itself after tearing the ACL in his left knee on Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Teammates, players throughout NBA send well-wishes to Porzingis
    (Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:29:03 AM)

    Players on the Knicks and throughout the NBA couldn’t bear to see Kristaps Porzingis get carried off the court, and they wished him a speedy return after it was found out his had a torn ACL in his left knee.

  • 421 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2018.02.08)

    1. Zanzibar

      plus for those of us who watch even the stupidest of games, the next 80 or so games just went from blah to utter shit.

      dunno but I’d be intrigued by a starting 5 of Burke/Frank/Dot/Hicks/Kornet for about 10 of those 80 games. OK it’s not my hoped for Rubio/Timmy/Anderson/KP/KOQ starting 5 but it’s got soooome appeal, no?

      I hope they play the kids, dump vets for cap and 2RPs, and use cap to sign a couple of players like Hezonja on 1 and 1 deals where 2nd year is team option. These young abandoned souls may be the new market inefficiency.

      Regarding dumping vets, Wasn’t it reported early on that there was a team interested in Lance? That reminds of a funny story years ago. MAD Magazine had a single subscriber in some small South American nation. They noticed that he did not renew his expired subscription so the staff got on a plane and showed up unannounced to try to convince him to renew. That’s what the Knicks should do for that team that was interested in Lance.

    2. Max

      Half the league is on the block and usually that help the buyers,
      everyone’s looking for the same things
      (young controlled assets, picks, shed 2016 salaries)
      let’s see what happen…

      I hope the 14 minutes D-Dot played against the Bucks are a sign of things to come.
      It’ll be nice to see if he could become our pre Cleveland Crowder (2nd rounder) or Bazemore before the obscene contract (undrafted!)

    3. Zanzibar

      Thibs has gotta take one of Lance or Courtney for Cole’s expiring contract right? Hey TWolves would have won that game last night if Lance were guarding Bron. I’d do the deal even if we didn’t receive a 2RP. I’ve always believed Mills’ primary goal this year was to finish with a better record than last year so he could say the team’s making progress while focusing more on youth, defense blah blah. It would be maddening to him to finish with a worse record than Phil after trading Melo. Now any progress in terms of W-L record is in jeopardy so I wonder just how far he’ll go in jettisoning players like Lee and Lance for nothing to use cap on 1and1 deals like Burke’s contract.

    4. Farfa

      That Lou Williams extension is so rational that almost makes it seem like GMing isn’t that hard to do

    5. Frank

      Slightly overlooked part of the Willy trade is that we basically opened up a roster spot to make unbalanced trades in terms of #s of players.

      I still think KOQ+Lee are really reasonable pieces for Cleveland to look to add. Even if they’re not willing to give up either of their 1st round picks, I would be ok with a KOQ+Lee for Osman, Shump, Frye and the 2020 Miami 2nd. It is very possible Miami will be bad in 2020 and that pick will be in the 31-40 range. Osman has a little bit of potential to him, and Shump expires a year earlier.
      For Cleveland that deal is a no-brainer – saves Dan Gilbert probably close to $20MM (which could be factored into other deadline trade decisions rather than just into his pocket) and they don’t really give up any of their better assets.

      At the end of the day – KOQ is likely to be an UFA at the end of the season. We can always try and re-sign him if we like him at that point. He’s a good player and hurts the #tank. Courtney Lee is also a nice player but completely misses our probable window of “contention”. He belongs on a contender, not on our dumpster fire of a team. Trading him opens up minutes for Dotson and Frank.

    6. Max

      Don’t mess with the Logo :-)

      He’ll be 80 in may and still get 4-5 Mil a year for “consulting”…

      Based on Lue’s latest comments the Osman’s train had left the station, but we’ll see…

    7. Max

      Luxury tax issues.
      HOU knows the Walking Bucket.
      D’Antony rarely uses more than 8 players and, injuries aside, he has them already.
      They’re already paying PJ Tucker Thomas’s money for being a better player.
      Do you really try to win a trade with Morey?
      Anyway, everything’s possibile… :-)

    8. Zanzibar

      Lance and Hollow Bucket would be injury protection pieces. Lance is perfect for Houston – just knock down open spot-up 3s when CP3 and Harden pass him the ball and play defense.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      What Jerry West has been doing with the Clippers is so damn impressive. They had already done decently with the Chris Paul deal, getting value when he was leaving anyway, he flat out won the Griffin deal for me (Harris alone is about as productive as Griffin has been, even though he is a worse rebounder, and the picks are pretty good) and the Lou Williams deal, if it’s really just 8 million per year + non guaranteed last year is insane. He’s playing like a superstar on offense and making the same as Lance Thomas.

      If they get the Nets pick for DeAndre they’ll be in such a good position to rebuild fast.

    10. Jack Bauer

      Stockpiling 2nd round picks seems like a long shot to help this team, they need more than that. I would love to see them use some of the vets and perhaps second rounders to acquire Rubio. They need a competent point guard to run the offense in the worst way and are unlikely to find a better talent than Rubio in round 2. Unfortunately Utah is probably looking for what every other team is, cheap young guys and/or first round draft picks. NY has no attractive young guys (other than Frank who they are not trading) and should not be considering trading any first rounders.

      Today should be interesting. It won’t surprise me if they end up doing nothing, because Knicks.

    11. Bruno Almeida

      The bad thing about the Lou Williams deal is that it reminds me daily that we’re paying THJ the double of what he makes to be half the player!

    12. Max

      @9 They have work to do in the offseason (Paul, Capela)
      and Thomas is signed for two more years to be a Tucker’s B version…
      BTW you must convince Morey not me, go make him a phone call :-)

      And everything can happen, we’re not talking with other GMs, who knows?

    13. Zanzibar

      The bad thing about the Lou Williams deal is that it reminds me daily that we’re paying THJ the double of what he makes to be half the player!

      Mills would never do it but the smart play might be to include Hardaway in a Cavs deal. Timmy could help them now but he’s young enough to be a future piece if Bron leaves. Here’s a
      simple trade. Note we’d get Cavs 1RP in deal.

      Thomas is signed for two more years to be a Tucker’s B version

      His salary in 2nd year is only guaranteed for 1 or 2m so Morey would have flexibility.

    14. Farfa

      @12

      Yeah, same thoughts.

      Now, it’s really possibile that Ballmer being way less a moron than Dolan is useful in having the chance to be a better executive, but still it’s incredible how some guys are always able to do things right.

    15. Max

      Remember, we asked West to come here before Jackson,
      alas he doesn’t want to leave California and rejected us,
      just as Kerr did later.

      Smart people don’t want to work for Dolan…

    16. Frank

      With the KP injury there is no point in trading anything of value for Rubio. He would just take minutes away from Frank and Burke and probably bring wins that would only hurt the tank.

      I think it’s entirely likely that KP is out until after the ASB next season (ie. about 55 games in or more). He’ll be on a minutes restriction when he’s back even if there are no complications of the surgery and rehab.

      The only rational thing to do at this point is trade anyone who is not part of the 2019-20 and beyond plans, and failing that, just let them expire (I’m looking at you Enes Kanter, Lance Thomas, Joakim Noah, Kyle O’Quinn, Jarrett Jack, Michael Beasley, and Courtney Lee). Also – no need to rush to make a trade at this deadline, although that is preferred from my perspective (just to open minutes for the young guys) — can also make trades at the draft.

      The oldest player in our starting lineup next year should be 26 years old (probably Kanter and THJ) and we should be fielding one of if not the youngest rotation in the league — Frank, THJ, Dotson, PF to be named later, and Kanter most likely with the other rotation guys being 2018 #1 pick, hopefully one of the 2018 2nd round picks, Baker, Burke, etc.

      We should prioritize player development above everything else the rest of this year and next, which will result in the appearance of tanking, take our lumps in the media, and emerge with multiple young and promising players — all while awaiting KP to return to form. 2019-20 is the first possible year that we could or should be trying to make the playoffs.

      Also, unfortunately we should replace Hornacek. i didn’t want to before because I didn’t want KP to have yet another head coach, but now that KP’s out for most of next season, it seems like less of an issue. I’d look at David Blatt, David Fizdale, and maybe some people from the Spurs coaching tree — for instance James Borrego was on the Orlando staff when Perry was there…

    17. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      @18

      I co-sign for that strategy as long as we don’t just dump Lee/O’Quinn for trash. If you have a few pretty good veterans on fair to attractive contracts, the idea is to get full value or better back for them. That’s how you roll up into better players. You don’t get better losing deals. You just vary the makeup of your crappier team.

    18. Farfa

      O’Quinn is dumpable only for trash, I guess. He’s a rental, after all. Lee. on the other hand…

    19. bobneptune

      I just think the path is so clear for the Knicks now with their hand being forced by the KP injury. The objective the rest of this season is to lose every game. Maximize the ping pong balls. To do that jettison anyone > 25 who can help win and absolutely meaningless game. Bye Bye KOQ, LEE, Walking Bucket and Enes for whatever today’s market value is, even if it is an expiring. Space is a valuable asset.

      Under no circumstances does KP play more than 10 games next year. This is a perfect opportunity to get his crazy physique and core up to speed and completely tank next year for the #1 pick.

      That is the Sufi way…….

    20. Hubert

      Targeting Isiah Thomas might not be a terrible idea. The Cavs seem willing to move on from him and his value is low.

    21. chrisk06811

      I’m hoping the lack of trade interest for KOQ means he either opts in (I doubt it) or signs w/ us for something like $7M year / 3 years. and in doing so, it makes keeping Kanter (if he ops out) less attractive.

      I still think Kanter opts in. I think he’s taking a big pay cut to get a 3 year deal, and it would make more sense for him to wait. unless we bid against ourselves again.

    22. DS

      Dolan, don’t you want to just sell the team, take the $3.6 billion in cash, and call it a day? You don’t need this aggravation.

    23. Max

      So next year with 80% of the team 23 or under,
      the Frat King is JR Smith?

      We’ll lead the League in players suspended for smoking pot, nightclub incidents and hours of practice lost clubbing.

      I’m in! It would help tanking for sure!

      :-)

    24. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      If the Lakers are having trouble getting a 1st round pick for Randle because he’s going to be a free agent, it’s no shock we are having trouble getting anything good for a backup C that’s going to be a free agent. There’s a glut of Cs. Still, if we could get two 2nd round picks for Willy who was playing behind him (and I didn’t like that deal), getting less for O’Quinn may be the market, but it’s still a bad deal in terms of value.

    25. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Now that we’ve traded Willy and KP is out, there is no real reason to not keep Kanter and O’Quinn for the time being assuming we can bring O’Quinn back. That goes double if we buy out Noah.

    26. Hubert

      Couldn’t Joakim Noah actually play for this Cavs team??

      Noah is owed $35mm after this season ($17.5 in 2018/19, $17.5 in 19/20). JR & Shump are owed $28mm ($24mm in 2018/19; $4mm in 2019/20). So we only have to compensate them for adding $7mm in payroll. We buy the ex-Knicks out immediately, of course, and save $13.5mm on the cap for the summer of 2019.

      Lee is just straight up better than IT this season, and this season is all that matters for CLE. But IT has the potential to be better next season and fits our needs better than Lee. Frank can guard 1s for him.

      Knicks get:

      Isiah
      JR (bought out immediately)
      Shump (bought out immediately)

      Cavs get

      Lee
      Noah
      Jack

      If IT seems looks good for a few months we can offer him a reasonable deal to stay. If not, whatever. We still got out of two long term contracts.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

    27. mase

      It’s obvious that Perry wants to include Lee and koq in any deal with Noah and that ain’t happening.

    28. Zanzibar

      no real reason to not keep Kanter and O’Quinn

      Winning is bad and we need more assets

      How about a compromise? If we’re able to sign KOQ to a deal at 6m/yr, we should do it. If we’re able to send Enes into a team’s open cap (Phoenix, Hawks, Nets, etc) this summer for nothing in exchange, we should do it. Zach Lowe said on his podcast there’s gonna be some great value deals this summer to teams with cap that wait out the marquee signings. I want to be one of those teams. Problem is Perry/Mills are the types who will jump in the water right away and ink KCP to a 20m/yr contract.

    29. Frank

      @28 – KOQ’s short-term value to us right now is actually negative. He’s a good player that may win games for us and we want to lose. He’s also an unrestricted FA at the end of the year so he has no long-term value to us other than we might want to re-sign him, which we can do whether he’s on the team or not (I guess we have his bird rights but ideally we wouldn’t be paying him more than early bird / MLE-type numbers anyway).

      If the best offer is a mid-2nd round pick, I’d take it at this point. Ideally I’d like to get a low-ceiling wing prospect instead, but if that’s not happening, I’ll take the pick and hope it turns into another Dillon Brooks or even Damyean Dotson.

      In that vein — early-mid 2nd round picks have actually been relatively valuable in the last few drafts.
      If you take picks 31-46, these are some of the players drafted:

      2014 – KJ McDaniels, Joe Harris, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, GR III, Jokic, Dwight Powell, Jordan Clarkson

      2015 – Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willy Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Andrew Harrison, Norman Powell. 8 rotation-level players (out 16 picks) although no stars.

      2016 – Deyonta Davis, Tyler Ulis, Malcolm Brogdon, Patrick McCaw, Isaiah Whitehead – not quite as good

      2017 – Frank Mason III, Ivan Rabb, Semi Ojeleye, Jordan Bell, Jawun Evans, Dotson, Dillon Brooks, Sterling Brown (not counting Frank Jackson who has been hurt, Jonah Bolden and Hartenstein who were stashes)

      Overall 29 out of 64 players have been at least rotation level guys, with a few guys that have greatly exceeded expectations. Late 2nd round picks are pretty useless, but early-mid 2nd’s are a reasonable lottery ticket.

    30. Farfa

      If the Spurs send Danny Green and a first for an expiring (and much shorter) Avery Bradley I’ll start thinking RC Buford is slowly losing it.

    31. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Winning is bad and we need more assets

      I hear you, but I guess I disagree with the consensus on the values.

      If your goal is to move from the 10th pick to the 7th pick winning is bad.

      If your goal is to create a better team over the long haul, giving away good assets for pennies on the dollar does more damage than gaining a few slots in the lottery unless you are top few.

      If he’s definitely opting out and wants too much, the point is moot and we can take a single 2nd rounder. That’s better than nada.

      However, we are at the stage now where even Perry realizes we should be playing and developing young players. If the only offer for O’Quinn is utter trash, there’s no reason we can’t keep him for now and play Kornet from the G league to get/keep the tank going.

      I think we probably know what Kyle intends to do and what it would take to keep him. He’s young enough to be productive for 4-5 more years. It’s not like Lee where we know he’ll be done by the time we are “hopefully” getting good.

    32. Zanzibar

      If only offer for KOQ is a late 2nd round pick, I wouldn’t trade him at the deadline. We retain his bird rights and this summer we could go over the cap to re-sign him or execute a sign-and-trade with another team. I’d rather have that flexibility than a late pick. BTW if we trade him for a 2nd, I don’t believe we would be able to sign him for a year. So the scenario where we trade KOQ to another team, KOQ opts out this summer and we sign him wouldn’t work.

    33. Max

      @30

      The numbers are slightly different (we’re asking CLE to add around 8.3 MIL next year and if LeBron stays they’re already tax strapped so the real value could jump be around 12 MIL)
      but either way you’re asking someone, even if this someone is an idiot as Dolan,
      to give away around 30 MIL in the buyouts for free.

      Note: The starting point in Noah’s buyout negotiations is 38 MIL plus what’s left for this year.

      It’s easier to do it when it’s not your money…. :-)

    34. Hubert

      Koq not taking $6 m per,closer to $10m per. And that’s too high for us.

      If no one is willing to give us anything for him now what makes you think someone is going to give him $10mm this offseason?

      The market is shifting. Lou Williams just got 3 years/$24 million not fully guaranteed. Kyle O’Quinn is really going to beat that? I think 3 years, $18mm with the last season only half guaranteed would get KOQ back.

    35. Max

      I’m curious to know how many of us do buy&sell (of goods, services or anything else) or hire people for a living…

      :-)

    36. Frank

      he’s a rental that is also an expiring contract, which should be attractive to teams like Cleveland that are in or up against the tax.

      I’d be surprised if KOQ got anything more than Dwayne Dedmon money (2 years $17MM – or basically MLE). He’ll probably end up somewhere betwen the taxpayer and nontaxpayer MLEs.

      To be clear, I’d trade KOQ for a 2nd rounder that is likely to be in the first half of the 2nd round. I wouldn’t take a pick in the 50s for him. I’d rather do something like KOQ for Osman (ie. big for small even if the small has more years on his deal).

      Woj just tweeted out that teams are talking about waiting out the trade market and seeing what comes on the buyout market instead. Besides that this seems like a transparent negotiating tactic by the “buyers”, I have no idea why teams would buy out players so much – all it does it ruin their own leverage in trades.

    37. Zanzibar

      It appears these days nobody wants to pay for centers like KOQ. He would fit nice on our timeline because even if KP is able to play the 5 in the 2019-20 season, KOQ at 6-7m/yr would be a fine reserve center piece just like he is today. He’s from NYC and if he likes KP/Frank/Timmy etc we should be able to re-sign him if other teams are only offering up to 8m/yr which is MLE money.

    38. mase

      They are speculating that buy outs will occur. No one is saying player x will bought out prior to deadline

    39. Hubert

      Yeah, Kyle’s contract status should make him more attractive! I think the lack of interest in him is likely an indication of what he should expect this summer. Teams aren’t passing on him now so they can line up a 4 year, $40mm offer this summer.

      Unfortunately, he is too good for the tank this year. But with Willy gone and Kanter on a stupid deal that we should absolutely not consider extending, I think resigning OQ isn’t bad.

    40. Nick C.

      The biggest issue, or close to it, with teams that should be tanking, is that upper management does not seem to have the coach’s back. So you get coaches who wind up making playing time decisions as if they are coaching for their jobs rather than in the EST ling term interest of the team. Toddler Bowles, Ben McAdoo and Hornacek all have done this to different degrees.

    41. Max

      @44
      That means paying a non lottery first rounder around 9,5MIL (or 13,8 MIL if we think that KOQ will opt out).

      I don’t know the current value for a 15-20 pick right now, maybe is that a fair one? It seems a little bit high.

    42. Ben R

      There is talk LA is looking to attach Nance in an effort to move Clarkson. Let’s help:

      McDermott, O’Quinn, Jack for Nance, Clarkson

      We could even throw in the Chicago pick or one of our newly acquired 2rps.

    43. Farfa

      @45

      Actually I was CEO in a small company and in the board of another (sligthly larger) one. I think I hired around 100 people from my 25 to my 30. My record is all over the place, of course.

    44. 2FOR18, understands math

      Rubio and Batum have been awful all season, but in the last week or 2 have been tearing it up. I don’t believe in coincidences, so I think those 2 are getting moved today. Since Kanter is a no go for Utah, I’m afraid of a Noah and a #1 for Rubio and Hood deal to be announced any minute.

    45. Frank

      btw at this point in my PTSD Knicks fandom, I’d almost be happy with a quiet trade deadline. Nothing would be worse than doing something really dumb like trading a first to be rid of Noah.

    46. chrisk06811

      Prospects of KOQ / Kanter opting out and getting paid (by someone else) this summer are not great:

      Not many teams will have room (Atl, Chi, Indy, LA, PHX, Brooklyn, Orlando, Philly), and some of those teams have to renounce someone to get there.
      -LA is going after big names
      -Chi has Robin Lopez, and now they have Asik. they don’t want these guys.
      -Brooklyn has Jarrett Allen and Mosgov
      -Philly is all set
      -PHX is paying Tyson Chandler $13M
      -ATL has a Plumlee, and they would be best off keeping Dedmon
      -ORL has Vucevic and Biz.

      Plus….there are other bigs avail….boogie, Lopez, Monroe, Noel, Okafor, Favors

    47. Brian Cronin

      KOQ is making so little money that he could opt out, sign for just the mini-MLE and still make more money that he would if he opted in, and he could get a long-term deal at that price.

    48. chrisk06811

      Continued…..our best move is to keep both KOQ and Kanter. If they opt in, fine….it’s 1 year. If they opt out, that’s fine too…losing KOQ for nothing would hurt, but its not like we are getting offers for him. I would offer him 3 years at $8M per and tell him after Kanter leaves he’s got a shot for more minutes. If someone gives him more, what can you do.

      I don’t see Kanter turning down $18M and getting 3 years from someone else at a rate anywhere near that. Maybe he’s worth $14M for 3 years, $42M total? he’d be better off taking the $18M; years 2 and 3 would only be worth $12M / year more.

    49. thenamestsam

      Trade deadline looks like a dud…

      Obviously people have talked about the jammed books from the cap bump a lot but I think another part of this is how far ahead Golden State (and to a lesser extent Houston) is perceived to be by a lot of the league. If you look at teams like Boston and Toronto they’ve both got great shots to make it to the finals, plenty of assets, and obvious areas for improvement on their rosters and yet neither seems particularly inclined to try to make much noise before the deadline. Same to some extent with Cleveland’s seeming unwillingness to part with the Brooklyn pick. I just don’t see many teams who are talking themselves into making win-now moves. They’re all hoarding 1st rounders thinking that things look better for them in the medium/long run than the short.

    50. djphan

      resigning koq wouldn’t be the worst move in the world… i think he’s probably our best big man…..

      there is very much a lashback against no defense all offense big men… okafor.. monroe… al jefferson… brook lopez all saw a very cool trade market…. so extending kanter for anything more than 8mm is dicey….

      with kp’s injury i hope we try and maybe get another 1st and rent out some space…. it seems like faried’s deal might be perfect for that since it expires next season….

    51. thenoblefacehumper

      If the Lakers are really just giving away Larry Nance, we should get on the phone with them right now before they come to their senses.

    52. Frank

      I’m honestly horrified at the thought of what our FO will give Kanter in contract negotations next summer.

    53. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      I’d estimate the chances of Kanter opting out at 1% and that may be overestimating it.

      I’d estimate the chances of O’Quinn opting out as very likely, but I’d also consider the possibility that he’s from Queens, loves playing in NY, may be willing to give us a small discount on an extension, and could even gamble that if he opts in this year the market for Cs may be better next year. The glut at C can’t get much worse than it is now.

    54. DRed

      If the Lakers are really just giving away Larry Nance, we should get on the phone with them right now before they come to their senses.

      Yes

      I’m honestly horrified at the thought of what our FO will give Kanter in contract negotations next summer.

      Yes again

    55. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      I’m honestly horrified at the thought of what our FO will give Kanter in contract negotations next summer.

      The very fact that we could have that conversation and not be joking horrifies me. Even if it’s not Kanter, it could be someones else. If Perry is just another Mills, we are so freaking screwed we’ll all be on anti-anxiety medication and anti-depressants within 2 years.

    56. djphan

      i don’t know what the lakers are doing with nance.. he’s a really good modern 4… and would be perfect for us….

    57. chrisk06811

      So how does this work? If Kanter opts out, when does he have to do it by? and can teams contact him before he opts out? You could see it playing out that he over-values himself, opts out, and then regrets it

    58. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      The Lakers are an interesting case study on rebuilding.

      They drafted Randle, Russell, Nance, Ingram and Ball in the 1st round over the last 4 years.

      Russell is gone.
      They are trying to move Randle.
      They may be considering moving Nance.

    59. mase

      How about this panic move?

      Deng
      Ingram
      Nance

      For
      Lance
      Koq
      Baker
      And all our expiring contracts

      We buy out Noah and deng

    60. Frank

      In general I don’t know how much pull an assistant GM has in terms of contract negotiations, but the FA contracts signed by his teams prior to NYK are pretty horrifying. We’re talking Biyombo’s albatross deal, Zach Randolph’s 2 year $24MM atrocity, George Hill’s deal they’re trying to get rid of already, Vince Carter for $8MM (at least that’s only 1 year).

    61. Frank

      Man – Marc Stein is reporting the Raptors are trying to get into the mix for Deandre Jordan. He would make their team mighty interesting.

    62. Ingmarrrr

      Kanter is Perry’s return for a major superstar. A top hall of fame superstar. Of course he’s giving him a lucrative extension.

    63. chrisk06811

      ESPN headline: A year after incident, Oakley still wants Dolan, MSG held ‘accountable’

      hey Oak, get in line.

      PS….please don’t tell him I said that

    64. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Zach Randolph’s 2 year $24MM atrocity, George Hill’s deal they’re trying to get rid of already, Vince Carter for $8MM (at least that’s only 1 year).

      valuable vet presence. lmao

      At least with us it was a very tolerable Jack to teach Frank. :-)

    65. 2FOR18, understands math

      Strat, I don’t get how you don’t grok the benefits of trading O’Quinn and Lee for whatever you can get.
      1) more minutes for kids
      2) more losses for the tank

    66. Frank

      lololol this one is for THCJ (from this guy Mike Ortiz who I am not sure has real sources):

      Sources: Nuggets are likely to make a move or two today. Wilson Chandler is drawing the most interest. But they’re also shopping Emmanuel Mudiay and Kenneth Faried. They’ve discussed deals with many teams including Utah, Philly, Houston, Knicks, and Brooklyn among them.

      THCJ – they are teasing you with Faried but they will end up trading for Mudiay. Book it.

    67. thenoblefacehumper

      Dolan brought in Perry because he’s “well respected” around the league. I guarantee there was zero discussion of talent evaluation strategy or anything of that nature. When your owner is a complete and utter moron your only hope is that you get very lucky and someone with actual basketball acumen impresses him. If Dolan had hired West instead of Phil that could’ve been us, but alas, we cannot have nice things.

    68. Max

      @72

      Orlando (Perry!) is another good one:

      2012 Nicholson (traded, buyout)
      2013 Oladipo (traded)
      2014 Gordon (RFA in 2017)
      Saric (traded for Payton, a RFA in 2017)
      2015 Hezonja
      2016 Sabonis (traded)

    69. Frank

      this rumor of Cleveland Lakers trade…
      what if it’s for Lebron?
      I know LBJ wants to win a title but it pretty clearly is not happening this year…

    70. Frank

      never mind it’s Clarkson and Nance to the Cavs. no word on what’s coming back.
      That’s a weird trade. Cavs are clearing room for the Lakers to make a run at Lebron this summer.

    71. djphan

      if the nets grab mudiay that would be hilarious… they basically traded for the 3 top 7 lotto picks in the 2015 draft….

    72. thenoblefacehumper

      The Cavs are picking up a very promising young player for the price of taking on Clarkson’s mediocre but not terrible contract. Unless the Lakers are getting the Brooklyn pick they majorly fucked up. I’m sure the Lakers would’ve preferred to do business with someone other than the team they’re competing with for LeBron so I really wish we got involved here.

    73. Frank

      Wow – Isaiah, Channing Frye, and Cavs 1st to Lakers for Clarkson and Nance. That is an amazing trade for the Lakers (clear TONS of cap) and also get the Cavs pick. Wow.

    74. Frank

      @90 – they’ve been trying to get rid of Clarkson forever. He doesn’t play defense at all. Clearing Clarkson or Deng was integral to their plans to have 2 max slots this summer. So they did it AND picked up a 1st rounder in the process. That is a great deal for them.

    75. thenoblefacehumper

      Getting the Cavs’ first makes it a little better but the Lakers just salary dumped their best young player. It ain’t a good deal for them unless they make incredible use of this cap space i.e. not just signing Paul George to perpetually win 45 games.

    76. Brian Cronin

      Wow – Isaiah, Channing Frye, and Cavs 1st to Lakers for Clarkson and Nance. That is an amazing trade for the Lakers (clear TONS of cap) and also get the Cavs pick. Wow.

      I think it honestly made a lot of sense for the Cavs. They just had no use for Isaiah in his current state. Clarkson is mediocre, but sadly mediocre is an improvement for them and Nance really helps them.

      That said, yes, it was better for the Lakers.

    77. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Strat, I don’t get how you don’t grok the benefits of trading O’Quinn and Lee for whatever you can get.
      1) more minutes for kids
      2) more losses for the tank

      We’ve been over this.

      If you look at the draft probabilities, there isn’t an enormous difference between picks once you get outside the top 5 unless you are talking about a very significant jump. IMO, the data is also probably out of date now because the tendency to draft 19 years old makes the results even more random.

      We are at the stage now where we are going to tank anyway.

      Frank, Dotson, and Burke are going to start getting minutes now anyway. I wouldn’t be shocked if we call up a couple of G league players to play too depending on how things shake out.

      You don’t throw away good players on fair deals just because your goal is to begin tanking the rest of the season and playing young players. You try to get a good deals on them. If you fail, you just don’t play them much for the rest of the season and maybe see what you can get later.

      The reason you have to avoid doing that too early in the season is that it can trigger a locker room meltdown like we got out of Noah except it might have included Lee, O’Quinn, and who knows who else. It disrupts everything and destroys the values.

      We still don’t know what these boneheads are going to do about Noah.

      IMO, the correct move from where we were was to play players based on merit, but take every opportunity you have to develop young players (which they did poorly in the case of Willy and Dotson ). Then once the season is more or less shot, you can do whatever you want.

    78. Frank

      Yeah I think the trade sort of makes sense for both teams…. until the Lakers use that cap space to sign Lebron this summer.

    79. Frank

      Maybe that’s the deal that opens the floodgates for other deals.

      Clarkson is 1000% better than 2018 Isaiah Thomas.
      Nance is just a good player.
      It’s ok for Cleveland but I can’t believe they gave up their 1st.

    80. thenoblefacehumper

      You don’t throw away good players on fair deals just because your goal is to begin tanking the rest of the season and playing young players. You try to get a good deals on them. If you fail, you just don’t play them much for the rest of the season and maybe see what you can get later.

      Dude, there is no “later” for KOQ. None. He will be an unrestricted free agent in 5 months. You trade him for literally anything you can get and there is no compelling counterargument.

      Lee is going to be 33 next season and his play this season has already quietly taken a nosedive. No one is giving us value for him (which a lot of us realized the second the ink was dry on his contract but I digress). He is a slightly below average player making more money than Lou Williams–if we can dump his contract for expirings we should do it and be satisfied.

    81. Brian Cronin

      Maybe that’s the deal that opens the floodgates for other deals.

      Clarkson is 1000% better than 2018 Isaiah Thomas.
      Nance is just a good player.
      It’s ok for Cleveland but I can’t believe they gave up their 1st.

      Their first isn’t that valuable, especially since it is protected (presumably just for the lottery, but perhaps also Top 20). Even decent reinforcements are huge for them. Remember, we were saying that Lee and KOQ would be good for Cleveland and worth Cleveland’s pick and Clarkson and Nance are as good right now (if not better) than Lee and KOQ and Clarkson is much younger than Lee (while making the same money)

    82. Brian Cronin

      What it really highlights, though, is how much Cleveland fucked up in taking Isaiah. If Boston was willing to trade Isaiah, that should have been a glaring red flag for the Cavs that he was not going to be healthy this year.

    83. Zanzibar

      Call me nuts but I’d do Deng/Nance for Lance/KOQ/McDermott.

      > Lance’s final year is 2m guaranteed so contract I believe could be waived and stretched cheap.
      > KOQ probably opts out.
      > McD is expiring this summer.
      > If Lakers could then dump Clarkson, they’d be able to take Bron and George. Looking more and more like Bron could leave Cavs this summer and George appears to really want to play for Lakers.

    84. Hubert

      I’m not necessarily bummed that we didn’t trade for IT. I would rather tank and slowly rebuild.

      But if we’re not going to go that way next year, acquiring him would have been a decent move.

    85. Brian Cronin

      Lee is going to be 33 next season and his play this season has already quietly taken a nosedive. No one is giving us value for him (which a lot of us realized the second the ink was dry on his contract but I digress). He is a slightly below average player making more money than Lou Williams–if we can dump his contract for expirings we should do it and be satisfied.

      I think strat’s biggest worry is taking back a shitty contract of a younger player for Lee, and I would agree that in that scenario, I’d just keep Lee. But I also agree with you, that while I’d like a pick for Lee, I’d be content to take just an expiring contract. Lee has no good reason to be on this team this year or next year (he never had a good reason to be on the team, but, as you note, that’s a whole other thing).

    86. mase

      the protection is huge don’t down play it. That makes a lot more sense but the move is to secure bron which is a fail here imho… you telling me they couldn’t have gotten a similar deal with kemba!

    87. Frank

      What it really highlights, though, is how much Cleveland fucked up in taking Isaiah. If Boston was willing to trade Isaiah, that should have been a glaring red flag for the Cavs that he was not going to be healthy this year.

      Cleveland even had a chance to back out of the deal but didn’t. They just got all starry-eyed over that Brooklyn pick.

    88. DRed

      The thing with the Lakers is they switched rebuilding strategies-they’re looking to clear free agent money now.

    89. Brian Cronin

      the protection is huge don’t down play it. That makes a lot more sense but the move is to secure bron which is a fail here imho… you telling me they couldn’t have gotten a similar deal with kemba!

      The protection could be huge. If it is just lottery-protected, then it doesn’t really matter as the Cavs are going to make the playoffs.

      Kemba would have taken a lot more than what the Cavs gave up. This is a nice improvement for their team with only giving up an impending free agent that they have no interest in keeping, an expiring Frye and a protected pick.

    90. Brian Cronin

      Cleveland even had a chance to back out of the deal but didn’t. They just got all starry-eyed over that Brooklyn pick.

      The Brooklyn pick is a great, great asset, but fuck, yeah, I forgot that they were explicitly told that he was worse off than initially told (and thus could back out of the deal) and they still did the deal!!

    91. Brian Cronin

      Great point by Woj that now the Lakers can trade their 2019 pick, which might be something they’d want to do to add another player if they add two good free agents this offseason.

    92. Brian Cronin

      It would’ve taken a lot more to get kemba true but he is a lot better than clarkson

      They clearly are trying to thread the needle of not giving up too much future assets (in case Lebron leaves) while improving the team (to keep Lebron interested). Kemba would have cost too many future assets.

    93. DRed

      Wow, just saw that Lakers deal. Nance is now the 2nd or 3rd best player on the Cavs. If they can somehow get a average point guard somewhere they should be in much better.

    94. Brian Cronin

      Wait it’s not for the Brooklyn pick?

      No, the Cavs’ own first round pick, with some protections on it (likely just for in case the Cavs freakishly miss the playoffs, which is a theoretical possibility).

    95. 2FOR18, understands math

      If the Clippers can get Poetl and a #1 for Jordan, they should put West in the hall of Fame again.

    96. Brian Cronin

      Ah so a late first,, now I see what you mean… kemba would’ve cost them the nets pick.

      Exactly. And they really don’t want to touch that pick. Imagine having, say, Doncic to entice Lebron to return to Cleveland?

    97. Brian Cronin

      Kanter, Noah and KP are all out tonight. If we trade KOQ, who is going to play C tonight?

      Kornet, I guess? Hicks would probably play some center, as well.

    98. Brian Cronin

      But if you protect that nets pick to get kemba you do it

      Agreed, but I don’t think the Hornets would take that pick with protections on it.

    99. Hubert

      Great point by Woj that now the Lakers can trade their 2019 pick

      Pelicans get: Kanter

      Lakers get: Cousins

      Knicks get: Deng, LA’s 2019 first, Pelicans 2020 first

      Who says no?

      (Answer: probably the Knicks, because we want to sign Kanter to a 5 year, $140mm contract extension)

    100. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Dude, there is no “later” for KOQ. None. He will be an unrestricted free agent in 5 months. You trade him for literally anything you can get and there is no compelling counterargument.

      Lee is going to be 33 next season and his play this season has already quietly taken a nosedive. No one is giving us value for him (which a lot of us realized the second the ink was dry on his contract but I digress). He is a slightly below average player making more money than Lou Williams–if we can dump his contract for expirings we should do it and be satisfied.

      We (on this board) have no idea whether O’Quinn is even going to opt out in a glutted market where he may not get a better offer to play than he’s going to get to play in NY where a Queens guy like him is VERY happy. I don’t want to repeat myself a million times, but earlier in the thread I said if the team knows he’s going to opt out and the cost to keep him is not a good value, then they should trade him for whatever they can get as long as it’s an expiring + some BS pick.

      Lee is a different case because a decision does not have to be made about him quickly. The Lew Williams deal surprised me (and loads of other people as an extreme bargain). That certainly changes the thinking a little about the current market.

      This idea that we should just dump players to get bad is not only wrong, it’s insanely wrong. That’s exactly how you get bad permanently. You get better by being very patient and winning deals.

    101. Brian Cronin

      I would imagine that the Lakers would only be willing to deal their 2019 pick after securing two notable free agents. It’d be too big of a risk to trade it now.

    102. Brian Cronin

      You get better by being very patient and winning deals.

      They already lost out on their deal for Lee the moment that they signed him (by not being patient and instead signing a bunch of vets to long term deals when the team still sucked). Keeping Lee on the team is bad for everyone involved, so long as they could possibly remove him without taking back a bad contract. Taking back a bad contract for Lee would be the only way to not win a deal that sends Lee away from the Knicks.

    103. thenamestsam

      I get that IT has basically been the worst player in the NBA on a per-minute basis this year and that he was clearly becoming a pain in the ass. This will definitely result in an immediate uptick for the Cavs. But I still feel like getting IT healthy and integrated/playing his best was still the only way this team had a ceiling that even approaches championship level (even with a trade for another piece). This trade says to me that they just felt they had to be rid of IT. Nance is pretty darn good though and I think a lot more people will get to see it now. This Cavs team desperately needed energy/live bodies and he’s got that in abundance.

    104. Max

      The implications of this deal are fascinating.

      I still don’t totally understand why did the Cavs help the Lakers create cap space for signing LeBron.

      Nance is a good get, but do he and Clarkson really raising them on Golden State or Houston/Boston level?

      And I hate to think of Lavar’s prophecy being fulfilled.

    105. Zanzibar

      If Lakers were offering Nance, we should have been in the game. Who here wouldn’t have done Deng/Nance for Lance/KOQ/McDermott? Heck I’d even have thrown in the Chicago pick. Isn’t that a better deal for Lakers since Cavs could now trade Nets pick, Thompson and Shump for Kemba and Batum? We could give them KOQ for Osman. That would make it more likely Bron stays in Cleveland which would defeat the purpose of Lakers making the trade in the first place.

    106. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      The Lakers rebuild started 4 years ago and was the rebuild we aspire to. They had 5 first round picks in the last 4 years (4 of them in the lottery), 2 are gone and 1 is on his way out the door soon. And they did not even draft very poorly.

    107. Brian Cronin

      Holy shit, the Cavs just picked up George Hill and Rodney Hood!

      Crowder and Rose to Utah, Joe Johnson and Shump to Sacramento.

    108. Brian Cronin

      The Lakers rebuild started 4 years ago and was the rebuild we aspire to. They had 5 first round picks in the last 4 years (4 of them in the lottery), 2 are gone and 1 is on his way out the door soon. And they did not even draft very poorly.

      The Lakers are not all a rebuild that we aspire to. That’s nonsense. They did the same moronic thing Phil did by trying to sign vets to long term contracts to compete before they were ready and just were lucky enough to have their moronic plans work out even worse than Phil’s, thus giving them Ball.

    109. thenamestsam

      Okay now the Cavs are getting somewhere. Not sure I trust Ty Lue to get half a new team integrated at midseason but they actually have lineups they can run out that have athleticism and can defend. That’s a massive improvement.

    110. alsep73

      Per Woj, Cavs got George Hill, too, sending out Shump (to SAC) and Crowder/DRose (to Utah). Utah sends Joe Johnson to the Kings.

      Hood being moved theoretically opens up a market for Lee. Maybe?

    111. Frank

      This is awesome. Cleveland really pulling out the stops. Who knows what it’ll look like in the end, but they just got a ton more shooting and got a lot younger to boot. Nicely done overall.

    112. Max

      Wow, the Kyrie deal at this point is basically Kyrie for the Nets pick…

      Cavs’re going Title or Bust, every other way LeBron’s out.

      Their salary tax this year’ll be through the roof, Gilbert must be fuming…

    113. Brian Cronin

      The Cavs are in a really fascinating place where they might be able to make the playoffs with that team next year without Lebron (with Love being the new focal point)! If they re-sign Hood, that is.

      Hill/Clarkson
      Hood/Smith
      Korver/Osman
      Love/Nance
      Thompson/Zizic

      It ain’t great, but that’s probably a playoff team and that’s not even counting their Nets’ pick!

    114. Frank

      Great line from Marc Spears:

      Cavaliers GM Koby Altman should change his name to Kobe Altman with his work today.

    115. Max

      Standing ovation for Cleveland FO,
      I don’t know if it works but they’re really going balls to the wall.

    116. Brian Cronin

      Gotta give them credit for how they handled Wade, too. It sounds like they basically told him, “Yeah, you ain’t going to be playing with Clarkson, Hill and Hood here now, so would you like to go back to Miami?” They just got a fake second for him, so it was strictly a courtesy move. Very nice of them.

    117. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      They already lost out on their deal for Lee the moment that they signed him (by not being patient and instead signing a bunch of vets to long term deals when the team still sucked). Keeping Lee on the team is bad for everyone involved, so long as they could possibly remove him without taking back a bad contract. Taking back a bad contract for Lee would be the only way to not win a deal that sends Lee away from the Knicks.

      We argue way more than we disagree. lol

      At the time I thought he was an upgrade over Afflalo but not a permanent solution. Giving him 4 years was excessive (though not as stupid as Noah), but when you have cap space you are going to use it. They should have offered him 1-2 like they did with Afflalo.

      You have to remember, the Knicks were in Melo appeasement/closing window mode. They were going to fill that space. They were not going to rent it, assuming a rental was even available. That was also a different market than we seem to have right now.

      I know you disagreed with the Melo signing (as did I), but as I always say, we are playing fantasy sports. We are not concerned about our jobs and the jobs of people we brought in. Plus, there wasn’t much on the table for Melo that didn’t include Boozer.

    118. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Did the Cavs just trade half their roster AND IMPROVE? What the fuck is HAPPENING

    119. Frank

      Freaking unreal.

      Assuming they make it through, they just jettisoned all their useless players and picked up actually good ones. Just unreal.

      Look at the shooters they have to surround Lebron with now:
      Love 40.4 3p%
      Hood 38.9%
      Hill 45.3
      Korver
      JR

      Add jack of all trades Larry Nancy

      Damn.
      Lebron at the 5 with Love, Hood, Hill, and JR/Korver would be sick.

    120. thenoblefacehumper

      At the time I thought he was an upgrade over Afflalo but not a permanent solution. Giving him 4 years was excessive (though not as stupid as Noah), but when you have cap space you are going to use it. They should have offered him 1-2 like they did with Afflalo.

      You have to remember, the Knicks were in Melo appeasement/closing window mode. They were going to fill that space. They were not going to rent it, assuming a rental was even available. That was also a different market than we seem to have right now.

      When you have cap space, you should wait for an actual good opportunity to arise to use it. There’s no league mandate that you have to spend it on the first mediocre veteran who will take your money.

      Also, “the Knicks were trying to appease decline-phase Carmelo Anthony” is the worst possible justification for a bad contract that exists.

    121. Max

      Good news for our tanking project,
      after this moves and with LeBron motivations after Kanter’s trolling
      we’re going to lose the two remaining games vs the Cavs by 150 points…

    122. Brian Cronin

      Plus, there wasn’t much on the table for Melo that didn’t include Boozer.

      That, right there, was the gist of the problem. That Phil wouldn’t take on a year of Boozer in order to get the other stuff that the Bulls would have traded, which would have clearly included their two first round picks (that became two decent players, Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic, but that’s neither here nor there because we can’t assume that the Knicks would have drafted as well as Denver). Phil wouldn’t take Boozer because he wasn’t willing to punt the 2014-15 season when he clearly should have. It’s the same reason why he didn’t try to get a first round pick for Tyson Chandler.

      And then they went out and won 17 games!!

    123. Brian Cronin

      so, I guess Utah got crowder for hood. but the kings got….absolutely nothing of value

      They got out from under the Hill contract.

    124. Hubert

      This explains why we haven’t been able to get shit for our guys.

      Koby Altman did well, but his has to be the most incredible buyer’s market in league history. He’s handing out garbage left and right and getting back good pieces.

    125. Brian Cronin

      I wonder if any of Clarkson / Nance / Hood / Hill will like Kevin Love?

      Ha! That should be the Cavs’ first thing to do. Send those guys out on, like, a day out hanging with Kevin Love to make them all friends.

    126. Max

      Remembering the Melo’s contract saga is making me sick… And I’m fighting a kidney stone already!

      :-)

    127. Brian Cronin

      Koby Altman did well, but his has to be the most incredible buyer’s market in league history. He’s handing out garbage left and right and getting back good pieces.

      What’s fascinating, though, is that in each case, the garbage he’s handing out makes perfect sense for the team getting it, too!

    128. Zanzibar

      Windhorst: Lakers’ deal with Cavs ‘absolute home run.’ Brian Windhorst says the trade has cleared a path for the Lakers to go after LeBron James and Paul George this summer.

      WTF? It makes it more likely Bron stays. What are odds Cavs trade Nets pick before deadline? Charlotte deal in works?

    129. Brian Cronin

      I think that Altman’s moves do, in fact, make it more likely for Lebron to stay. But the key was improving the team to entice Lebron but then keep that Nets pick in case he leaves. They could be working in, say, Kevin Knox right into that team next year if Lebron leaves.

      Hill
      Hood
      Knox
      Love
      Thompson

      That’s not awful at all.

      I’m sure they’d hope to get even better than Knox, but you know what I mean.

    130. Max

      What about a Kevin Love appreciating night?
      A steamboat on the lake maybe?
      He’s best friend with Frye,, now he’ll dress in the refs room…

    131. Frank

      Unbelievably strong work by Koby Altman – brand new GM, obviously is not afraid of being aggressive. Wow.

    132. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      When you have cap space, you should wait for an actual good opportunity to arise to use it. There’s no league mandate that you have to spend it on the first mediocre veteran who will take your money.

      I agree.

      The alternative is to give out a short term contract like he did with Afflalo/Derrick Williams. Those were not real signings. They were a way of filling the cap space and rolling it over hoping to fill permanently later. So I agree that 4 years was excessive to Lee, but I don’t think it’s a terrible contract.

    133. DRed

      The Cavs job was not that difficult. Find decent vets on bad teams that dont want them and get them. It’s hard to trade for good players, but it’s not that hard to get mediocre players (although nabbing Nance was really savvy)

    134. Brian Cronin

      The Cavs job was not that difficult. Find decent vets on bad teams that dont want them and get them. It’s hard to trade for good players, but it’s not that hard to get mediocre players (although nabbing Nance was really savvy)

      I think it was harder than that considering that he only had one draft pick to work with (which went towards getting the best player of the bunch, naturally). He was able to get decent veterans while trading shitty veterans. That’s impressive. He did add $28 million to the Cavs’ payroll, though. But obviously Gilbert was okay with him spending money.

    135. Brian Cronin

      Trade deadline days are the worst because I can’t concentrate on my work when I’m refreshing Woj constantly.

    136. Frank

      @182 – all Cleveland needs to make a run are decent veterans that can play both sides of the ball. Lebron will fix everything else. Hill, Hood, and Nance are all good defenders. Clarkson isn’t, but he’ll play off the bench. And they subtracted Rose, Wade, and Isiah. Sending Crowder and the 1st out was just the cost of doing business, even if selling Crowder at his low point isn’t great.

      And the shooting just got exponentially better.

      Seriously wonder whether Lebron knew this was all happening when he went supernova last night. He’s looked so disinterested lately, but obviously was not last night.

    137. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      That, right there, was the gist of the problem. That Phil wouldn’t take on a year of Boozer in order to get the other stuff that the Bulls would have traded, which would have clearly included their two first round picks (that became two decent players, Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic, but that’s neither here nor there because we can’t assume that the Knicks would have drafted as well as Denver). Phil wouldn’t take Boozer because he wasn’t willing to punt the 2014-15 season when he clearly should have. It’s the same reason why he didn’t try to get a first round pick for Tyson Chandler.

      We have no idea what was actually on the table for Melo, but I doubt VERY much it was “2” first round picks. Given my attitude at the time, I would have taken 1 pick, but my job is never on the line.

      That was the crux of the issue.

      Should he have traded KP because he was injury prone?

      Maybe, but if he did he’d be gone. He was fired for thinking about it.

      The Chandler deal was driven by something else.

      Phil was going to implement his “hybrid” rebuild (both vets and picks).

      Chandler was coming off a down year with injuries, did not fit the triangle, and wanted out. Phil also had players he wanted to get rid of immediately for “culture reasons” (JR Smith and Felton). He used Chandler to help move Felton and took back less quality plus a few wildcard 2nd rounders that unfortunately did not work out. He gave up Shumpert for similar reasons. Shumpert was injury prone and had some attitude issues. So he used Shumpert him to get rid of JR Smith and HIS rebuild began. He did fine for a year. Then he went off course with the Noah abomination trying to appease Melo.

    138. 2FOR18, understands math

      Yeah Strat, it’s frustrating to hear you gripe about how Phil was missing 1st round picks when he easily could have acquired them by signing and trading melo.

    139. Brian Cronin

      Seriously wonder whether Lebron knew this was all happening when he went supernova last night. He’s looked so disinterested lately, but obviously was not last night.

      The guy I’d love to be in a room with while this was all going down was Love. This was surreptitiously also a culling of nearly all the anti-Love sentiment from the non-Lebron players. All the non-Lebron players who gave Love any shit are gone. And this is also like, “Well, if Lebron leaves, look at the team we’re going to be giving you next year.”

    140. Jack Bauer

      Cavs got younger and better and got rid of the IT headache. Seems like they made some good moves, it will cause some havoc integrating all of those new faces so late in the season.

      Knicks sitting on their hands.

    141. kevin5318

      I’d hold onto Mcbuckets. Young, Good piece for continuity and would probably be better in a more 3 happy system.

    142. 2FOR18, understands math

      Given my attitude at the time, I would have taken 1 pick, but my job is never on the line.

      Phil had a guaranteed 25 mil contract and gravitas out the ass. He had no reason to care about what anybody thought about anything, so that narrative of yours is really silly, sorry.

    143. Max

      @188
      The “clearing” of all Love’s haters is one thing that made me laugh.
      It’s like LeBron saying “He’s my whipping boy but for you is Mr.Love you suckers.”

    144. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      @NYPost_Berman
      1h1 hour ago
      More
      As we’ve already reported, Knicks GM Scott Perry still has his eye on his former first-round lottery pick, Elfrid Payton of Orlando.

    145. Brian Cronin

      We have no idea what was actually on the table for Melo, but I doubt VERY much it was “2” first round picks. Given my attitude at the time, I would have taken 1 pick, but my job is never on the line.

      It was definitely both first rounders. In getting Melo, their first rounders would have actually hurt their cap space. So they actively would have wanted to move them. Remember, they ended up trading both of them just to move up a couple of spots to get Doug McDermott. Both of those picks were heavily on the table.

      The Chandler deal was driven by something else.

      Phil was going to implement his “hybrid” rebuild (both vets and picks).

      Right, which was moronic.

      He used Chandler to help move Felton and took back less quality plus a few wildcard 2nd rounders that unfortunately did not work out. He gave up Shumpert for similar reasons. Shumpert was injury prone and had some attitude issues. So he used Shumpert him to get rid of JR Smith and HIS rebuild began. He did fine for a year. Then he went off course with the Noah abomination trying to appease Melo.

      He wanted Felton and Smith gone for cultural reasons, but he paired them with Chandler and Shump specifically to free up cap space. If he just wanted to dump them, he could have dumped them, but Phil did not want to lose their cap space, because he had a foolish plan where the Knicks were going to win, like, 41 games with his revamped roster and then he was going to use the cap room to get two star players (preferably Greg Monroe and LaMarcus Aldridge) to take slightly less than the max in the offseason and then, voila, the Knicks would be contenders after just one season.

      He was actively avoiding first rounders in exchange for freeing up as much cap room as possible (he could have gotten a first rounder for Shump, but it was more important to him to get rid of Smith’s cap hit) and of the guys he got for Chandler, he declined Shane Larkin’s option before he played a minute for the Knicks because Phil wanted every scrap of available cap room to be able to split it on two star players. Two star players that he assumed would be willing to come here to play for him because he was Phil Jackson. Much of Phil’s early moves were “people will want to come here because they want to be with me, because I’m Phil Jackson.” It’s why it was such a shock to him when Kerr rebuffed him.

    146. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Phil had a guaranteed 25 mil contract and gravitas out the ass. He had no reason to care about what anybody thought about anything, so that narrative of yours is really silly, sorry.

      Phil’s contract was not extended until April 2017. He was canned soon after.

    147. Zanzibar

      I think that Altman’s moves do, in fact, make it more likely for Lebron to stay. But the key was improving the team to entice Lebron but then keep that Nets pick in case he leaves.

      Nets pick will only be 7ish which isn’t great. Gotta believe there’s another shoe to drop here which involves that pick. Tristan’s been a no show in playoffs and Nance is able to play center so they’ve got Nets pick, Thompson and Osman to deal. Is Bron gonna leave if Kemba joins the team? And Kemba isn’t that old if Bron decides to leave.

    148. ClashFan

      Great, so Mills has a woody for Payton? Please don’t overpay.

      Interesting flurry of action? Do any of the other east teams make panic moves now with the Cavs seemingly so improved?

      Can the Knicks somehow take advantage?

    149. Hubert

      When you have cap space, you should wait for an actual good opportunity to arise to use it. There’s no league mandate that you have to spend it on the first mediocre veteran who will take your money

      There may not be a league mandate, but there is definitely an MSG mandate. If you added up the actual amount of time a team spent with cap space over the last 20 years, the knicks probably clock in at 8 days. And that’s only because it took LeBron 8 days to make The Decision.

      If I had to guess, excluding the wait time for LeBron, the Knicks have had cap room for under an hour in the 21st century. And that was right before they handed out the Noah and Lee contracts.

    150. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      It was definitely both first rounders

      No one EVER confirmed what was on the table.

      Right, which was moronic.

      Disagree.

      The long term record of rebuilds is WAY better using a combination of picks, trades, and free agents than it is with all draft picks. There still may be a few markets that are better off with just picks, but if you have options, you should use them all. After that you are simply debating execution not strategy. If you want to say he did not execute well, I agree. The Melo appeasement plan was a debacle.

      He was actively avoiding first rounders and of the guys he got for Chandler, he declined Shane Larkin’s option before he played a minute for the Knicks because Phil wanted every scrap of available cap room to be able to split it on two star players.

      Of course he wanted cap space to sign stars. That would be intelligent. That the stars did not come because the Knicks were not good enough yet was a lesson he could or should have learned from Donnie Walsh, but it was not critical. The idea should have been to fill the cap space with short term money and do it again later. But Then he went off plan again.

      What killed him most was not having picks for 2 years. It pushed him in the direction he took.

    151. Brian Cronin

      No one EVER confirmed what was on the table.

      Logic dictated that since they were A. shopping the picks (they eventually traded them both) and B. They would have needed the cap room from the picks to be able to afford Melo, then they would have had to include the picks. Plus, of course, the whole “Why in the world would they balk at including two first round picks that they were actively trying to get rid of to acquire Carmelo Anthony when the only way to get him was to get the Knicks to trade him” aspect of it all.

      The picks would have been a fait accompli. The only question was whether Mirotic would have been included, as well. I think it was a possibility, but far from a certainty. But Boozer, Snell and the two picks were essentially a baseline.

      What killed him most was not having picks for 2 years. It pushed him in the direction he took.

      He didn’t have picks because he didn’t want to acquire them. He pushed himself in the direction he took when he signed Melo to that awful contract. The contract that he did because he thought it was a good idea and not because he “had” to or that he was going to somehow be fired right after being hired by not keeping Melo.

    152. vincoug

      Cleveland can’t trade the Brooklyn pick anymore since they already traded their own pick this year and next.

    153. 2FOR18, understands math

      Phil’s contract was not extended until April 2017. He was canned soon after.

      Canned, as in chilling at his ranch collecting his guaranteed contract.

    154. Hubert

      He was able to get decent veterans while trading shitty veterans.

      I agree with DRed. This wasn’t that hard. You just needed a willingness to absorb a lot of bad contracts. There’s a ton of good players available for nothing because no one wants to pay them.

      He still did a good job. I just think this particular market made it easy.

    155. alsep73

      WOJ:

      Denver is trading Emmanuel Mudiay to New York, league sources tell ESPN.

      More:

      Denver, New York and Dallas agreed on a three-way deal, league sources tell ESPN. Mudiay to Knicks; Devin Harris to Denver and Doug McDermott to Dallas.

    156. Brian Cronin

      Wow, an actual good Knick trade. I’m kind of speechless. Good for Perry. Mudiay has been ass so far, but he’s still a third-year 21-year-old player who has improved every season in exchange for a guy who didn’t have a future with the Knicks.

    157. ClashFan

      LT, Burke, and one of the seconds acquired in the Willy deal to Orlando for…
      Payton and Hezonja.

      Orlando will never go for it, but I wouldn’t offer any more than that. I think I’d rather just run with Burke and Frank the rest of this year, but Perry seems set on getting Payton.

      Edit. Forget it. The Mudiay era begins.

    158. alsep73

      Is Mudiay still terrible, though? McBuckets isn’t much to give up, considering how little he was playing. Just trying to calibrate my expectations.

    159. Brian Cronin

      Is Mudiay still terrible, though? McBuckets isn’t much to give up, considering how little he was playing. Just trying to calibrate my expectations.

      Mudiay is still bad, but he’s been getting better, especially recently. It’s more about how little they gave up to get him. A guy who had no future to take a one year flyer on a guy who will only be 22 next year? That ain’t bad. I really don’t get it for Denver. Devin Harris? For serious?

    160. Zanzibar

      Nice trade by Knicks! I mentioned earlier that abandoned young souls might be the new market inefficiency. So obtaining players like Mudiay and Hezonja for nothing is wise. Players who are only 22yo do make leaps.

    161. thenoblefacehumper

      Huh. I don’t particularly like Mudiay, but anything for expiring, mediocre McDermott is fine.

    162. Brian Cronin

      Helps tank

      Yeah, I was thinking that they could just give the team to Mudiay for the rest of the year. Let him just ball out. If he clicks, then great. If not, then tank-tastic.

    163. ClashFan

      So what happens to Jack and Burke? Neither should get to play much unless…….a Lee deal is upcoming?

    164. Brian Cronin

      A Mudiay/Frank backcourt would be… unusual, shooting-wise.

      Defensively, though, Mudiay isn’t that bad (he has some major mental lapses, though). So they’d be a good defensive backcourt.

    165. Donnie Walsh

      Mudiay has been ass so far, but he’s still a third-year 21-year-old player who has improved every season

      I mean, “improved every season” is one way to look at it, I guess. But it kind of ignores the fact that he’s gone from worst player in the league to the second worst player in the league to playing half as many minutes per game in an effort to not have him cripple your team when he’s on the court.

    166. Brian Cronin

      Woj says we also gave up a future 2nd. Still a scratch off ticket purchase, essentially.

      I don’t like that as much, then. But it’s still a good trade.

    167. ptmilo

      mudiay is a zero and we gave up a second. bad trade. Wait till you see mudiay’s drose splitting image on D.

    168. Brian Cronin

      Which 2nd? Please not the Chicago pick. I’d prefer the 2021 Orlando one…

      He said future second, so likely not the Chicago pick.

    169. ptmilo

      Brian you think mudiay isn’t bad defensively? I’ve watched him a lot and I think he is really bad, an incredibly dumb defender.

    170. Brian Cronin

      I mean, “improved every season” is one way to look at it, I guess. But it kind of ignores the fact that he’s gone from worst player in the league to the second worst player in the league to playing half as many minutes per game in an effort to not have him cripple your team when he’s on the court.

      I mean, they drafted another point guard who is better than him, so it’d be hard for his minutes not to go down, no?

    171. alsep73

      Woj:

      Denver and New York was swapping second-round picks in the three-way trade, league sources tell ESPN. Denver gets New York’s 2018 second-round pick via Clippers, and Knicks get Denver’s second-round pick via Portland.

    172. Brian Cronin

      Brian you think mudiay isn’t bad defensively? I’ve watched him a lot and I think he is really bad, an incredibly dumb defender.

      Ha! I was just in the middle of editing that post to note that he makes a lot of dumb mental lapses on D, but he has not been that bad overall.

    173. ClashFan

      OK, that pick swap is not so bad.

      Wait, a pick swap AND another second or just the swap?

      The trade might be getting worse…

    174. Brian Cronin

      Damn, Woj, how about just waiting until you have the actual deal before reporting it piecemeal like this? Every new little detail makes the deal worse and worse (not dramatically worse, but still worse).

    175. 2FOR18, understands math

      Mudiay was the most inevitable Knick ever. I wish they could have had Faried included in this.

    176. Zanzibar

      Frank could guard the 1 if Mudiay and he are on the floor together which appears to be the short-term direction of team. But how does continued interest in Payton fit in? Burke, Mudiay, Frank, Payton? Watching the sh!t show at the 1 so far has really impelled Mills and Perry into action?

    177. alsep73

      Beat writers saying Knicks asking for a first whenever anyone calls about Lee. Which means Lee won’t be traded, probably. Barring some ridiculous protections like the Nerlens trade.

    178. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The Mudiay and Burke moves show me the Knicks don’t have confidence in Frank’s ability to develop into a full time point guard. That’s cool with me as I agree that Frank doesn’t have the attack mentality that’s necessary to be a point guard in today’s game, but he’s definitely a guard. Best case, I see him developing into the guard version of Draymond Green as he gets stronger and nastier on defense. Point guard is a high usage position in today’s game, and Frank is a 15-23% USG% type of player. Taking shots on Mudiay and Burke with an eye to the draft for Trae Young should be the play this year. I like the Mudiay deal.

    179. Brian Cronin

      Y worse?

      Swap is better than giving up a pick entirely

      I believe the swap is on top of a future second rounder, as well.

    180. Cock Jowles, Living through the Melo Era All Over Again

      Rose, Wroten, Mudiay… who’s the next worst PG of the last three years? MCW?

    181. ptmilo

      yeah the swap isn’t even much of a swap clips vs Portland so actually not much of a give up there after all

    182. Brian Cronin

      It sounds like straight swap

      It’s possible. I guess we’ll find out soon when the deal is confirmed.

    183. djphan

      mudiay is terrible but there’s some signs of hope… i feel like denver gave up on him too early esp since they gave up so little for him….

      he’s improved his shooting every year…. at the line.. in 2p territory and 3s…. the problem is that he came from such a low level that he’s still very bad…. frank is going to have that problem….

      great deal for the knicks…. it’s about as good as the burke deal… low risk… high upside… esp if we can sign mudiay to a great long term deal if he takes a decent step forward…. think mike conley’s first deal off his rookie deal… only mudiay is worse…. between frank and mudiay we have a decent shot at getting an ok pg eventually…

    184. 2FOR18, understands math

      A line-up of Mudiay, Frank, Lance, Hicks and Kornet and my 23 win prediction can come true. Plus we can end up with Trae Young.

    185. alsep73

      Isola:

      The Knicks could have acquired Elfrid Payton, a Scott Perry favorite, but they would not include Frank Ntilikina in the deal with Orlando. Instead, they went after Mudiay.

    186. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Brian,

      I’m glad you are a good guy. At least we remain cordial even though we are never going to agree on Phil or how to rebuild. :-)

      I’m not going to accept a scenario that would have loaded us with assets because you want to believe it. The only thing that came close to being verified was that Phil did not want to take on Boozer’s contract. I think he may have mentioned the cap space issues himself. Nothing Chicago was said to be doing or offering was verified. We have to move on from that.

      He didn’t have picks because he didn’t want to acquire them. He pushed himself in the direction he took when he signed Melo to that awful contract. The contract that he did because he thought it was a good idea and not because he “had” to or that he was going to somehow be fired right after being hired by not keeping Melo.

      The unbiased truth is that he still thought Melo was a good player and that he could build around him. But from day 1 he wanted to build young via picks and with more seasoned players taking a hybrid approach (sustainable is the word he used). Not having those two 1st round picks is the main reason we aren’t in great shape. It cost us 2 years of the youthful side of the rebuild.

      Look at the Lakers.

      They are 4 years and 5 1st round picks into their rebuild and they are throwing those same players around like they have the plague now. They are looking to sign top veteran free agents. The “all picks” approach doesn’t work UNLESS you are incredibly lucky, have the patience of a Hindu holy man, or are the 76ers (and the jury is still out them for a few more years).

      What he was trying to do was fine. It was the execution in the final year (Noah etc..) and the empty cupboard of picks he inherited that are the reason we are screwed.

    187. Brian Cronin

      OMG wtf? I knew this would happen.

      You knew they were going to trade Doug McDermott for Emmanuel Mudiay? For reals?

    188. ess-dog

      You knew they were going to trade Doug McDermott for Emmanuel Mudiay? For reals?

      I knew they would go after the worst available young pg Mudiay, yes. Call it a hunch.
      Sorry it didn’t work out for Doug here.

    189. Max

      First reaction,
      people well into the Nuggets team (Matt Moore for instance) always said that he isn’t there on work ethic and maturity.
      Kids could mature so let’s see, he’s a lottery ticket and next year we’re tanking anyway.
      At least they’re trying…

      I’m sorry for McD but he wasted his few chances.

    190. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      You knew they were going to trade Doug McDermott for Emmanuel Mudiay? For reals?

      He’s the worst PG in the league on RPM. -5.23

    191. Brian Cronin

      I’m not going to accept a scenario that would have loaded us with assets because you want to believe it.

      Not “loaded with assets” perhaps, but with more first rounders than he ended up having and without a terrible Melo contract that continues to clog their cap via Kanter. In other words, not saying that they would have been in some amazing shape, but they would have been in a lot better shape now than they are with what Phil did.

      His hybrid approach was foolish from the start and looked even more ridiculous when the cap exploded after he made a bunch of poor moves to free up, like, $5 million in cap space.

      Look at the Lakers.

      They are 4 years and 5 1st round picks into their rebuild and they are throwing those same players around like they have the plague now. They are looking to sign top veteran free agents. The “all picks” approach doesn’t work UNLESS you are incredibly lucky, have the patience of a Hindu holy man, or are the 76ers (and the jury is still out them for a few more years).

      The Lakers categorically did not go the “All picks” way. They abandoned that plan right away by signing Mozgov and Deng to longterm contracts and were lucky that they were so bad at it that they still ended up getting Ball.

    192. ClashFan

      If the deal is for McD and that pick swap, that’s fine. Mudiay will make $4.3m next year.

      As of right now this is probably bad news for Burke, even if Jack is released?

    193. JK47

      Mudiay stinks but he’s only 21 so maybe he won’t always stink as bad? That’s about the best I can do with this one.

    194. Brian Cronin

      As of right now this is probably bad news for Burke, even if Jack is released?

      They have a team option for Burke, but yeah, it ain’t looking good for him. Oh man, Horny is going to hate Mudiay.

    195. Brian Cronin

      Mudiay stinks but he’s only 21 so maybe he won’t always stink as bad? That’s about the best I can do with this one.

      He’s been trending in the right direction, at least. He’s shooting 38% from three this year.

    196. Frank

      I’m 100% good with this trade. McD is a nice shooter and he had some nice chemistry with KOQ but is at best a poor man’s Kyle Korver (ie. Korver is a rotation guy but not a starter, so McD is a borderline rotation player). We have team control of Mudiay until the pivotal offseason of 2019-20 and even then have him restricted, so if he’s good we can keep him and if he’s bad we just let him go. Physically talented, improving numbers every year (not a high bar given how bad his #s were). Worth a flyer. Worst thing that happens is he’s the elite tank driver that DRed mentioned.

      Plus now THCJ has to root for Mudiay.

    197. Max

      Yes Horny is going to hate him and probably he’s not the only one,
      rumors are is not very popular in the Denver’s locker.
      But, to repeat myself, kids mature… sometimes
      :-)

      I’ll really miss the KOQ-McD backdoor play.

    198. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Doug McDermott is a bum who couldn’t take minutes away from Lance Thomas, who I believe is the least talented player in the NBA. He let me down big time when we gave him an opportunity to start and make a ton of money and he proceeded to wet the bed. I’m glad he’s gone. If I’m the Knicks I’m sending Mudiay to the G League and letting him rehab his game the way they did with Trey Burke.

    199. ClashFan

      Mudiay’s numbers have been trending up a bit, but as his minutes go down (30 his first season to 18 this season). I’m not sure if that means that they played him too much too soon or that his upside is backup PG.

    200. geo

      watch burke outplay both frank and mudiay in practice, and, out on the court in games…

      sunday against the pacers we should get a better idea of what the team will look like going forward…

      horny must be ecstatic – perfect opportunity for him to play with lineups the rest of the year…no consistency required…

    201. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      On the other hand, if we start Mudiay and Hardaway Jr we might not win another game until Timmy goes Full Michael Jordan in April again.

    202. 2FOR18, understands math

      My only memory of Vonleh is of him beating the crap out of KP the last time they faced each other.

    203. Z

      Remember, they ended up trading both of them just to move up a couple of spots to get Doug McDermott.

      And Denver obviously regretted that trade because they just sold the farm to re-acquire McDermott.

    204. Brian Cronin

      Whoever said that the trade rumors re-invigorated Lebron might be on to something. Apparently Altman told Lebron about the trades yesterday before the Minny game where Lebron went Beast Mode in.

    205. thenamestsam

      Taking low opportunity cost fliers on young players with obvious talents but major deficiencies is exactly what teams in our situation are supposed to do. Most likely scenario by far is that he drives our tank effectively for the next two years. Some small percent chance that he continues to improve (the 3 point shooting improvements are encouraging) and becomes a reasonable young player. Either way works out fine given where we’re at. This hopefully signals that management is realistic about our prospects for the next 18 months and not that they believe Mudiay is good (which I’m concerned about). You also have to factor in that the Knicks have probably the worst player development track record in the NBA. But that’s just the horse we’ve hitched our wagon to I guess.

    206. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      The Lakers categorically did not go the “All picks” way. They abandoned that plan right away by signing Mozgov and Deng to longterm contracts and were lucky that they were so bad at it that they still ended up getting Ball.

      OK, I concede they executed poorly also. lol

      But look at where that team would be after 5 first round picks in 4 years (4 lottery picks). If they didn’t do dumb deals and kept all those players they would still be light years away from being anywhere. They are basically nowhere now. And they didn’t even do a bad job drafting. There are teams that do a lot worse or get more unlucky depending on what you want to attribute it to.

      You almost have to do a little of everything, but you need the competence to execute and wins deals. The right strategy in the wrong hands is still bad.

    207. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Adam Marres, via Twitter:

      One last note: Mudiay has not talked to the Denver media all season. He has stonewalled us all. And Denver is a SOFT media market. Curious to see how he handles NYC.

      This could be a very big problem.

    208. Zanzibar

      Yes Horny is going to hate him and probably he’s not the only one,
      rumors are is not very popular in the Denver’s locker.
      But, to repeat myself, kids mature… sometimes

      Yes D’Angelo was a problem in that regard but he’s improved not only on the court but also I haven’t heard of any personality issues on the Nets. So maybe “Moody A” will follow suit. No real loss here given what we traded.

      If I’m the Knicks I’m sending Mudiay to the G League and letting him rehab his game the way they did with Trey Burke.

      No Frank is the one who needs to go the G League.

    209. domiknick

      Lol.

      @Kyle_OQuinn:
      @emmanuelmudiay do you cut backdoor?? ? I’ll explain later. See you soon G.

    210. ClashFan

      Looks like OQ is going to miss McD. Sweet.

      The Mudiay vs. the media thing will be, um, interesting.

    211. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, the Knicks one day having Mudiay was inevitable, glad that’s out of the way, now we only need to pick up Tyreke Evans and Rudy Gay somehow.

      Jokes aside, meh, not so terrible this time at least, he’s young and has some upside and it appears we weren’t keeping McDermott anyway. Give him the ball and let him chuck and cut Jack, then it’s fine.

      Now watch Hornacek starting Jack still and burying Frank on the bench forever.

    212. alsep73

      Berman:

      In a three-way deal, the Knicks will give up Doug McDermott, who goes to Dallas. The Knicks and Nuggets also will swap second-round picks, with Denver getting the Knicks’ second-rounder via the Clippers and Denver’s second-round pick via Portland coming back to New York. Devin Harris goes from the Mavericks to the Nuggets as well.

      Sounds like just the swap, and not an additional second.

    213. Hubert

      If I was going to take a chance on a bad lottery pick from the 2015 NBA draft, I would have gone (in order):

      1. De’Angelo Russell (before the season)
      2. Stanley Johnson
      3. Jahlil Okafor
      4. Mario Hezonja
      5. Mudiay

    214. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Kyle O’Quinn was probably told he wouldn’t be traded and maybe we’ll re-sign him. That’s nice, but that hurts the tank.

    215. Brian Cronin

      Sounds like just the swap, and not an additional second.

      Dallas is also getting a second, so I think Berman doesn’t have the full trade details. Hopefully it is just a swap! A swap is practically meaningless.

    216. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      I don’t have much of a problem with the Mudiay deal. He’s still very young for a PG, but Denver has been shopping him for quite awhile. They must be pretty convinced he’s not going to become much even though his boxscore stats are trending up.

      I like McBuckets, but it’s not a major loss.

      I think Mudiay is mostly a lottery ticket that’s very likely to be worthless, but I did meet a guy that won the lottery years ago.

    217. Donnie Walsh

      I mean, they drafted another point guard who is better than him, so it’d be hard for his minutes not to go down, no?

      True. But when you’re, literally, the worst player in the league (league worst -1.2 vorp), anybody is going to be better than you.

      Maybe they asked the 19 year old to do too much his rookie year. But his TO rate hasn’t really improved much, and that was what killed him, along with his shooting (which is, yes, mildly improved).

    218. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      @JSports_ent
      16m16 minutes ago
      More Sports News Retweeted Sports News
      Lee has just been informed he will not be moved by the 3pm deadline.Sports News added,
      Sports News

      @JSports_ent
      #Knicks hope not to be done dealing. Lee still drawing interest despite him telling the team he prefers to remain in NY. NY asking price for Lee isn t cheap

    219. Brian Cronin

      Elfrid Payton to PHX for a 2nd rd pick. Wow.

      Daaaaaaang. Okay, that makes this move look worse in comparison.

    220. Dough Chew [IT'S A NEW DAY YES IT IS]

      HAHAHAHAHAHA

      So ORL wanted Frank for Payton, instead they settle for Memphis’ second round pick?

    221. domiknick

      I guess the rationale is with Payton you’d have half a season to decide if you want re-sign him or let him walk. Mudiay has a few years left on his deal still I believe, so you get to kick the tires a little longer.

    222. Zanzibar

      Woj: Elfrid Payton to PHX for a 2nd rd pick

      Isola: The Knicks could have acquired Elfrid Payton, a Scott Perry favorite, but they would not include Frank Ntilikina in the deal with Orlando. Instead, they went after Mudiay.

      Uh, what am I missing?

    223. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The Knicks probably aren’t trading picks or young players. Instead we got Mudiay who has one more year of team control and 82 more games to decide if this is a player you want long term. Here’s hoping that Elfrid Payton, Devin Booker, and Josh Jackson play well enough to bump Phoenix ahead of us.

    224. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I also believe nothing Frank Isola says. He has no sources with the Knicks because he slams them in his articles all the time. Berman is much nicer to the Knicks and therefore he’s the one who gets all of the nuggets.

    225. Zanzibar

      Hot Take Grades:

      Mudiay…A (no risk, potential there, year to evaluate)
      Lee……….D (requiring a 1RP, take expiring, use cap for rental or 1and1 deal and play Dot/Baker)
      KOQ……..A (not trading most productive player for 2RP when could be re-signed dirt cheap)
      Nance……F (should have done Deng/Nance for Lance/McD/KOQ)

    226. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      For what it’s worth, Mudiay is 2 years younger than Payton. So if you project some improvement we might be better off gambling on Mudiay and seeing a bit more of him than having to make a quick decision on Payton.

    227. djphan

      not trading lee is a huge loss….. i’m not sure why our asking price is so high…. th2 is playing his position and is woefully out of position at SF….

    228. ClashFan

      I hoped they’d move at least one of Lee, OQ, or LT. Instead, they move Willy and McD.

      Okay with McD, but still worried that we’ll rue the Willy deal for many years to come.

      What in the world will the rotations now look like, esp. at PG? Surely Jack either gets released or goes to the end of the bench?

    229. nicos

      That Memphis second will certainly be a lot better than the Clips second which is what the Knicks could have offered- so unless Orlando would have preferred the two picks we got from Charlotte he wasn’t coming here unless the Knicks ponied up a first or Frank.

    230. Hubert

      Well I don’t like Payton that much, but yeah, incredible gap between Frank and a 2nd rounder

      We hope.

    231. Z-man

      The Knicks apparently did offer a second for Payton- that Memphis second will certainly be a lot better than the Clips second which is what the Knicks could have offered

      What about the Chicago 2nd?

    232. Zanzibar

      The Knicks apparently did offer a second for Payton- that Memphis second will certainly be a lot better than the Clips second which is what the Knicks could have offered-

      We could have offered the Chicago 2RP. Not saying we should or shouldn’t have, only that it was there.

    233. wetbandit

      You guys realize that you would have to pay 24 yr old Payton this summer?

      He’s young, not that’s young, not a difference maker, and we valued him as a worth a second rounder, which was worse than their other offer.

      I get it.

      Mudiay sucks but McDermott wasn’t long term.

      Maybe our office is thinking long term now?

    234. chrisk06811

      it’s after 3. Can I go back to posting made up things that Willie and KP said to each other in Spanish?

    235. wetbandit

      What doesn’t make sense is valuing McDermott as extraneous given our state, saying he’s worth a likely-shitty young player, then saying Lee/Oq are not extraneous and are worth more. Doesn’t compute.

    236. MSA

      According to ESPN Stats & Information, only Stanley Johnson and Marcus Smart have played as many minutes as Mudiay while shooting worse than Mudiay, whose career percentage is 37.5.

      He also has struggled defensively, ranking last in the league among all point guards in defensive real plus-minus.

      Lol Knicks…

    237. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      You really have to wonder exactly what they are asking for Lee when it keeps getting reported that there is a lot of interest, but the asking price is too high. If anything, 1st round picks are being overvalued in this market. You aren’t going to get a 1st round pick for Lee. If the offers are total trash (a 2nd rounder and an expiring), I think waiting is the right thing to do. They have time to move Lee. Trash offers will be there draft night and next year. In the mean time, Frank/Dotson are going to get a lot more minutes anyway. There is no downside to waiting a little more unless they are crazy enough to keep playing him full time instead of fewer minutes and giving him games off to play Frank/Dotson.

      So KOQ was not traded either.

      Personally, I think that probably means they already know they can bring him back on a fair deal. If so, I sign off on that.

    238. Frank

      RE: the Frank to Orlando rumor – it’s quite possible that was to take Noah off our hands. It’s an incomplete rumor at the very best.

      I would characterize this as a no-harm trade deadline. I know everyone was upset about Willy being shipped off at a sell-low time, but I’m not sure Mills/Perry will be proven wrong on that.

      I’m a bit intrigued by Mudiay. If our coach was Kenny Atkinson then I’d be a lot more intrigued.

      If Jarrett Jack gets more than 5-10 minutes of token time on the court I will be quite annoyed now that we literally have 3 young PGs that need minutes and reps.

    239. ClashFan

      @337
      Yikes. Hey, he’s worth a shot if it is just McD and the pick swap. His feuding with the Denver media and his own mates is very worrying, if true.

      If he continues to stink and get minutes, he’s good for the tank. Keeping Lee and OQ is not good for the tank.

    240. djphan

      mudiay is bad… but you don’t get good players for nothing… and we traded nothing for him…. if he makes more progress on his shooting and offense…. he can be a player…. but he’s still far away…

      he’s no worse than burke and we essentially got him on a similar deal with more team control in the future….

      if we play him heavy minutes then we have a chance to be really bad… which also happens to be pretty good for us also…..

    241. Frank

      And I’m fine with not making the Orlando move. It’s possible that Orlando had the choice of trading Payton to the Knicks or the Suns, and that the Memphis 2nd is just better than the Chicago 2nd in PHX’s eyes.

      Payton is probably serviceable, but even as a RFA is likely to make 2x what Mudiay will make. And Mudiay is still REALLY young.

    242. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      It’s worth next to nothing.

      Mudiay has been terrible, but I think I ‘d rather have the 1 1/2 years to evaluate a player 2 years younger than have to make an expensive quick call on a player that’s 2 years older and hasn’t been that good either. It’s at least logical enough to not complain.

    243. Owen

      Nick Young is still top of the charts for most inevitable Knick. Although with a TS% over 58 perhaps I am mistaken.

      Mudiay? It’s just a total headscratcher. He sucks. I don’t know, certainly room for him to improve. But yeah.

      Love what the Cavs GM did.

    244. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It’s kinda hard to evaluate defense, especially when your rim protector is Nikol Jokic. I’m not saying Mudiay is a good defender, just saying he might not be the worst defender in the league. Of course we won’t know how true that is since our elite rim protector is down and Kanter is the guy in the paint, but it’s a theory.

    245. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Jeff Hornacek now has no excuse to go to a 2 point guard line up. With Jack, Mudiay, Burke, Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway Jr, and Lee on the roster, he has to play our guys. We have no depth at the 3 and LT will be seeing time as a 4 with KP down. I need 2 point guard line ups.

    246. Donnie Walsh

      mudiay is bad… but you don’t get good players for nothing

      You do if you’re Cleveland.

      Or if you’ve ever done business with the New York Knicks.

    247. geo

      glad we didn’t do anything crazy to get elfrid…that is definitely an encouraging sign…

      also, if we can keep o’quinn around for 6 to 7 million a year – not bad…

      plenty of time to move lee in the next couple of years…

      let noah rot…sooner or later he’ll realize he’s not getting any younger – and, if he wants a shot at playing basketball again – he’s going to have to give back some money…somewhere around 10 million or so…more than likely he’ll be on vet minimums the rest of the time he’s in the nba…

      maybe we can also keep beasley on the team for 4 to 5 million a year for a couple of years…he’s honestly been a much better locker room guy than i ever would have imagined…

    248. Max

      Over/Under on Beas and THJ shots for tonight game?

      I think we have only 9 players…

      Jack could play 35 and LT will be in the 40’s

    249. heavencent35

      Move Jack to ast coach. Trade lee and let’s have a frank and mudiay backcourt. Grow them and tank.
      That’s the ideal scenario.
      Though 2 seconds for Elfrid Payton is a good deal for me

    250. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Overall, in value terms, I would say we lost both trades very mildly, but we have a few extra wildcards long term. So if you are a results oriented thinker instead of a value oriented thinker, there’s a chance we can still come out on top.

    251. d-mar

      So Cleveland gives up Thomas, Wade, Shumpert, Crowder, Frye and Rose and gets Hill, Hood, Clarkson and Nance?

      Sounds a like a total home run for Cleveland. Or am I missing something?

    252. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      So Cleveland gives up Thomas, Wade, Shumpert, Crowder, Frye and Rose and gets Hill, Hood, Clarkson and Nance?

      They also gave up their own 1st round pick I believe.

    253. djphan

      it remains to be seen if hill is still any good…. if he is then it works ok…. if he’s doing what he’s doing in sacramento then it’s a sideways move….

    254. Nick C.

      When trading for Mudiay generates mostly neural to positive feedback you know your team is beyond hopeless.

    255. Max

      I’m waiting a Presidential tweet,
      all our white players were traded or injuried…

      @359
      They went all in, the new GM showed vita…
      and if the rumors about LeBron going beast mode yesterday because he was aware of the FO intentions are true… It’ll be interesting

    256. Ben R

      Before the KP injury I was okay with keeping some vets and building a winning team slowly but without him I see no upside in Lee, Jack, Thomas or Beasley.

      We moved Willy and McDermott and got Mudiay. That’s a bad return and I even like the Mudiay trade.

      Jack is not getting waived. I wouldn’t be surprised if he remains the starter and I expect no less than 20 minutes a game from him.

      We have no forwards other than Thomas and Beasley, two players that have no place on a tanking Knicks team. We have Lee who will do nothing other than hurt our draft pick this year and next and by the time KP is healthy again he will be 34.

      Why not take a flyer on a young forward somewhere so we’re not forced into 60 minutes of Thomas and Beasley a night. If you are going to trade for another young point guard why not move Jack so he can play.

      If you are going to trade the only young center for nothing why not get another young center.

      Willy trade – D
      Mudiay trade – B
      Not moving on from Jack, Thomas and Beasley – F
      Not moving Lee – D

      Over all a F for Perry.

      Also book it – Jack, Beasley, Thomas and Lee over 100 minutes a game for the remainder of the season.

    257. hoolahoop

      Looks like a good trade for the knicks. Gave up little. Got a young PG with potential.

      For all you tankaholics (yes, now is tank time), Mudiay is another high pick that a lot of people here were drooling about. . . . as high as #1!

    258. Z

      Mudiay WILL improve. How do I know? There’s nowhere to go but up.

      Yeah. Here’s a list of all the <24 year old players over the past 40 years that have put up a negative WS/48 and negative VORP:

      http://bkref.com/tiny/mdl6P

      There are 35 people on the list and the only names on it that went on to have any impact in the league whatsoever is our own Allen Houston. (I guess Rony Seikaly quietly managed a few decent years, but it turns out he was actually a DJ moonlighting as an NBA player http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/rony-seikaly-dj-interview/ )

      Who knows. Maybe Mudiay can turn his basketball body into basketball talent, unlike Tony Wrotten and the other characters on the list. And the jury is still out on Zach LaVine and Brandon Ingram, who have both shown improvement since their horrid rookie years.

      But it's a real long shot.

    259. Zanzibar

      Mudiay speaks fluent French – are Frank and gonna start speaking French to one another like KP and WHG speaking Spanish to each other? Also I wonder if the genocide which occurred in Rwanda and the Congo and the profound effect it must have had on their parents will have any effect on their relationship.

    260. nicos

      Now with three young points under team control for next year it’s doubtful the Knicks take a point in the draft unless they drop low enough to take Young. I’m anointing Kevin Knox as the inevitable Knicks’ pick now since I think he’s probably slightly worse than Miles Bridges. And I think they’ll miss out on Michael Porter Jr. by one spot.

    261. Z-man

      Bottom line…we did nothing to cripple the franchise. After decades of those gut-punch moves, I’ll take that.

    262. Max

      @366 Yes, it’s a longshot but it’s a nothing for nothing trade,
      we’re going to suck&tank while his contract expires,
      nothing to lose sleep on…
      Come on guys, what changes?

      And he was a wet dream for many on this blog before his draft,
      It’s nice when wet dreams come true…

    263. ClashFan

      @364
      I’m not real thrilled either, but they did also get two (possibly early) seconds for Willy. I still wish they had not done that, but c’est la vie.

      At the beginning of the season, my hopes were to enjoy the young core of KP, Willy, and Frank. Now that is Frank and Mudiay….

      I can understand why they can’t release Jack yet, but once Mudiay is onboard, it will be foolish to continue to play JJ. At this point, playing Jack and Beas a lot of minutes is just helping them play for their next contract rather than do what is best for the team — tank.

    264. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      For all you tankaholics (yes, now is tank time), Mudiay is another high pick that a lot of people here were drooling about. . . . as high as #1!

      Having good picks is preferable to not having them, but they are not a panacea. There are loads of busts and semi busts in the lottery every single year.

      If we should happen to get a disappointing player in this year’s draft and/or Frank doesn’t develop like we hope, we will be several years into this rebuild, still suck, and still be discussing tanking.

      The best case scenario is that Frank develops, KP comes back stronger and better than ever, we make a great selection in this year’s lottery, make another solid selection in the lottery next year because KP is out for most of the year. Then we’ll still be still 3-4 years away from being good because we’ll have a bunch of 19 -23 years old kids running around without a clue.

    265. Farfa

      I’m thrilled to see our guys tonight, I anticipate 30 minutes for Dotson (19 pts on 7/10 shooting)

    266. Zanzibar

      Yeah. Here’s a list of all the <24 year old players over the past 40 years that have put up a negative WS/48 and negative VORP:

      There’s a couple of flaws in that report. First, notice that a lot of those players on the list posted negative WS/48 at the age of 22 or 23. That’s very different from a negative WS/48 at the age of 19. He’s got a .031 WS/48 so far at the age of 21. Remember 19yos were not common in the NBA until relatively recently so a 40 year report is somewhat limited. Second, the 1 guard has the steepest learning curve so you really need to sample only 19yos who were starters at that position and I suspect the sample size wouldn’t be large enough.

      Nobody argued more strenuously against drafting Mudiay a few years ago. That said, it’s difficult for a 19yo whose body and mind are still developing to be an NBA starter at the toughest position to learn. I think Mudiay is a textbook case of what could go wrong in those instances. He’s older and more mature now. He doesn’t even have to start (Burke). He’s got the body and speed to be an NBA 1 guard. The odds are against his being an above average player but it’s worth a shot given our situation. We should be in tank mode next year playing the youngins. The only real cost here is the opportunity cost of not giving those minutes to someone else.

    267. Max

      BTW I like McD and I expected more from him.
      He had few chances, but he missed them all.

      This trade could be his last chance to be a meaningful player,
      he’s been unlucky with coaches but if Carlisle couldn’t do it maybe nobody can.

    268. Stratomatic says "It's tough being us"

      Mudiay = $1 scratch off lottery ticket.

      Most likely it will be worthless, but we may get our money back or win a few dollars. Plus like they say in the advertisement, “Hey, you never know”.

    269. Z

      Yes, it’s a longshot but it’s a nothing for nothing trade

      Not if you look at it the way Nicos does:

      nicos
      February 8, 2018 at 4:27 pm

      Now with three young points under team control for next year it’s doubtful the Knicks take a point in the draft

    270. djphan

      guards especially pg’s take a long time to develop…. mudiay probably won’t ever be a star.. but he can still be something like an ok starter if he continues to make progress on his shooting…. guys like dragic… hill… or even a guy like cory joseph… took a very long and windy road to get to where they are now…. it takes a lot of skill to develop to be able to score on a court where you are the smallest guy….

      he has to work hard though and buy-in…. his play from whenever i saw him was just very sloppy all around…. almost a mirror opposite of frank’s game which is very careful but passive… it’s interesting to have those two on the same team and hopefully they overcome their deficiencies….

    271. hoolahoop

      If it’s up to Hornicek, Mudiay is not going to get minutes. He hasn’t earned it. But, I bet Perry can’t wait to try out his knew toy.

    272. hoolahoop

      Mudiay was in the discussion to be the #1 overall pick. He was scouted as a natural, pass first PG that needed work on his shot.
      So what happened to him?

    273. Max

      @379
      PG is not our primary need, we need an athletic 4/5 to complement KP or a wing scorer (once upon a time called a “small forward”) that could send THJ back to his natural SG position.

      And if we’re lucky (?) and we get Trae Young we could manage things easily:
      Burke’s not guaranteed, Frank could be a combo guard (jury’s still out on his best position, I care only that he’ll become a good player) and Mudiay’ll expire at the end of the season.

      Where’s the problem?

    274. ClashFan

      @382
      From a distance, it might be maturity and work ethic. And apparently those may have not improved in 3 years.

      Maybe being dumped in a very minor trade will motivate him?

    275. Max

      @382
      He didn’t go to college, he played in China, no one really knows him and nobody expected his shot to be so broken.
      And in Denver he reportedly behaved like an asshole for 3 years.

    276. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @368

      He’s absolutely terrible on every metric. We’ve reached convergence!

    277. thenoblefacehumper

      Holding out for whatever the hell they were holding out for with Lee and KOQ was really, really dumb. These guys really have no clue how to manage assets.

    278. Donnie Walsh

      There’s a couple of flaws in that report. First, notice that a lot of those players on the list posted negative WS/48 at the age of 22 or 23. That’s very different from a negative WS/48 at the age of 19. He’s got a .031 WS/48 so far at the age of 21.

      Emmanuel Mudiay’s rookie season represents the second worst ws/48 of the modern era (only Sasha Pavlovic’s 2010 campaign was worse).

      Sure, he’s improved his FT shooting, which isn’t nothing, but he still has the all-time lowest career ws/48 among people that have played as many minutes as he has. (Sasha Pavlovic’s season was an outlier, as he was pretty good when he played alongside LeBron James:)

    279. hoolahoop

      Mudiay has size and talent. Sounds cliche, but sometimes a change of scenery along with maturity can make a big difference.
      Compared to Frank, one thing that Mudiay has is court vision.
      Imagine if he turns into what was expected of him. I’m hopeful and can’t wait to see him on the court.

    280. ptmilo

      when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick). I know he’s 38-108 from 3 but he’s still been really bad on long 2s so not much here to trust in that sample. if we didn’t give up anything but a meaningless swap then who cares but if you’re expecting a pass first pg who can defends and just needs to shoot well that ain’t him.

    281. nicos

      The biggest issue with Mudiay is his taking point guard reps away from Frank. Frank’s best chance of being a real difference maker is at the point and this probably moves him to the wing for the rest of this year and perhaps the next. Burke looks like a nice back-up at best given his defensive issues and shoot first mentality. And Mudiay isn’t a whole lot better at 21 than Frank is at 19. As wins and losses probably aren’t going to be an issue until 19/20 I’d rather give Frank a shot at the point now/next year rather than consigning him to 3 and D duty in hopes that one of the other two surprises and develops into a solid starter.

    282. hoolahoop

      when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick).

      Derrick Rose played with his head down always looking to get to the hole. Passing was the last thing on his mind.
      Mudiay plays with his head up looking for open teammates.

    283. Zanzibar

      Emmanuel Mudiay’s rookie season represents the second worst ws/48 of the modern era (only Sasha Pavlovic’s 2010 campaign was worse).

      Again the only relevant benchmark here is 19yo rookies who were starting PGs. How many of those have there been? Not many at all.

    284. Donnie Walsh

      Mudiay plays with his head up looking for open teammates.

      He may look for them, but he rarely finds them.

      Career assists: 4.3
      Career turnovers: 2.5

    285. Z

      gain the only relevant benchmark here is 19yo rookies who were starting PGs. How many of those have there been? Not many at all.

      Okay, here it is:

      http://bkref.com/tiny/oZtGa

      There have been 13 teen-aged guards that have been given meaningful minutes in the NBA.

      Among them, Mudiay, of course, ranks last.

      (And, hey, with a little luck, Frank Ntilikina could finish the season #2 on the list, right behind Mudiay!)

    286. ClashFan

      @393
      Yeah, lots of guys here hated the KP pick… I was okay but thought they were going to trade him for more picks. My BB crazy friend predicted that KP was the guy way before anybody.

    287. english_knick

      Listen, I’ve not spent a lot of time on team optimist and I’m definately not an apologist for management, but let me at least say this…

      The NBA has changed a ton in the last few years. The traditional big man is all but dead when only a couple of years ago you could get 2 1Rps for Mozgov. The Cavs’ only two bigs are Nance and Thompson for god’s sake. Lebron and KD might play minutes opposite each other at Center in the finals.

      Meanwhile no-one wants to take on money and no-one wants to give up picks. If you can’t get a first for Smart or Evans you sure as hell cant get one for Willy or for $32m of Lee until 2020.

      I’d still prefer we’d taken the hit and sold low on Lee but kept Willy to test his upside until the end of the year. But I’m not sure we’ll really understand the deals of the last few days and their value today (as opposed to their value compared to previous years) until we’ve seen whether Willy turns into something elsewhere. Remember, in past trades we gave up Lampe and Milos, who were both going to make us regret it, and who never made any kind of mark in the league. I have some sympathy with those who point out that the training staff work with the players every day, and maybe Willy just doesn’t really have it…

    288. english_knick

      In terms of Mudiay, I don’t care how bad he’s been, this is a good move to me. We’ve lost literally nothing – we weren’t going to resign McD anyway. If Mudiay improves, we bought low. If not, we paid nothing. It’s EXACTLY the sort of flier trade we need to make.

    289. TheOakmanCometh

      Mudiay is better for us than Elfrid would have been. Elfrid is a better player, but that would hurt the tank. He’s also a RFA this summer. If we let him walk, then we acquired him for nothing. If we re-sign him, then we’re blocking Frank and hitching our wagon long-term to a very flawed player.

      Better to evaluate Mudiay for 1.5 seasons and see if there’s something there. Most likely he’ll suck, help the tank, and we let him go. But there’s a chance he turns into something, given his age and high school pedigree.

      This is the kind of flyer we should be taking more of. Now waive Jack.

    290. chrisk06811

      here’s my takeaway from that article on Muddy hay:

      Mudiay sees the help defender, Kyle O’Quinn—a truly elite shot-blocker

      You guys wanted to trade a truly elite shot blocker for a 2nd round pick!!!!

    291. Zanzibar

      There have been 13 teen-aged guards that have been given meaningful minutes in the NBA. Among them, Mudiay, of course, ranks last.

      Much better but you have to eliminate Davis who was an SG/SF type. Also I’m pretty sure Monk, Exum and Lavine played significant minutes off the ball versus being the starting PG like Mudiay who played almost all of his minutes at that position. After adjustments, I don’t think there’s a large enough sample in that list to draw any meaningful conclusion about Mudiay or Frank. A stronger argument against Mudiay is that he hasn’t progressed that much in the last two years.

    292. Brian Cronin

      Remember, in past trades we gave up Lampe and Milos, who were both going to make us regret it, and who never made any kind of mark in the league.

      Willy was a first team all-rookie player just last year. He averaged 16/13 per 36 just last year. He had already made a mark in the league, then got buried when the Knicks traded for a center who plays a similar style as Willy and then was dealt for two future seconds when his value was at its lowest. How in the world is that similar to trading two guys who had never played in the NBA? Not only that, but no one said shit about them trading the rights to Milos back then. Lampe, sure, there was a little disappointment in not getting to see him, but no one cared at all about giving up the rights to Milos. I didn’t even remember who you were referring to at first, that’s how little response Milos Vujanic’s inclusion in the Marbury deal got.

    293. heavencent35

      its been a while that we are “winners” in trade deadline.
      Lee wanting to be a knicks is special. Lets just keep him during his contract. hes a good locker room guy and could be a vital part of our playyoff run next season

    294. heavencent35

      we will get the pick this season, next season should all about winning.
      Im feeling regret that Payton can be had for a second round pick.
      We should be buying for him at that price.

    295. Brian Cronin

      we will get the pick this season, next season should all about winning.

      They will be without KP for most of the season. Next year should be the tankiest of all tanktastic seasons.

      We should be buying for him at that price.

      I personally do agree with that, but as others noted, the second rounder that the Suns traded for Payton was better than any second rounder the Knicks could offer (it was Memphis’ second round pick). The Knicks could only offer Chicago’s second rounder, which isn’t as valuable as Memphis’. And I don’t think they should be going beyond a single second rounder.

    296. heavencent35

      OH. KP will be injured til next season. I missed that. I thought he could play by the season starts. Now i agree. top pick this year, another tank mode next year. 2 draft pick which i hope is not a bust plus KP and the others. it will be an interesting next next season.

    297. DRed

      We could use a new thread-this one is getting hard to load/scroll.

      Mudiay is fine. He’s a lotto ticket. I think it’s probably a waste of our time, but it doesn’t matter much. Destroying whatever value Willy had and then trading him for no reason whatsoever is far dumber.

    298. DRed

      As far as Mudiay the player goes, he’s pretty terrible, but he’s been somewhat less terrible as his career as gone on, and he is still only 21. I think realistic chances of Mudiay turning into a perennial all star are probably gone, but there is probably a chance he develops into an averagish player.

      when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick). I know he’s 38-108 from 3 but he’s still been really bad on long 2s so not much here to trust in that sample.

      He is bad on long twos, and middle range twos, but he shoots most of his 3’s assisted. He essentially never takes catch and shoot two point shots (he’s 1-3 this season).

    299. Brian Cronin

      We could use a new thread-this one is getting hard to load/scroll.

      They’ll be a game thread soon!

    300. Brian Cronin

      OH. KP will be injured til next season. I missed that.

      Yeah, his particular injury typically takes about 10-12 months to recover from, so it’ll be about this time next year when he will probably make his return.

      But yeah, 2019-20 should hopefully be a fun season, at least!

    301. TheOakmanCometh

      Next year is the first year of the flattened lottery odds. Which of course means we will have the worst record in the league and fall to the #5 spot in the draft.

    302. latke

      Z-Man: Bottom line…we did nothing to cripple the franchise. After decades of those gut-punch moves, I’ll take that.

      Thing is, this is exactly what people were saying through Jackson’s first two years… and truth is, there were no catastrophic moves except Noah, and even without the Noah contract, the sum of his moves were a major setback to the team. We’re getting a sense of the way this front office views team-building, and it looks almost identical to the way Phil viewed it… It’s a very passive approach, one that hasn’t worked since the 2011 CBA came along and made it near impossible to dramatically outspend teams, creating a virtual nearly hard cap and thus making free agency a pretty awful value.

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